Question:

Blazin’ Tommy D: The George Wallace National Youth Alliance are KKK Nazis and don’t belong on any of these NGs tony: Oh please go back to alt.teens where you belong . . . .

klaatu: he’s not from alt.teens, but apparently from some alternate reality where he imagines he has wisdom to decide who belongs where.

Response:

Dear abuse The abuse address could not be resolved so I’m forwarding this to the various hate watch groups dealings with anti-Judaics, &c. I am from the NG alt.magick which is a group dedicated to the scholarly discussion of Hermetic philosophy and practice. Several of us including myself are Jewish and we are occasionally harassed by a person using various names that posts anti-Judaic and racist posts to our group and at the same time "cross posts" to various teen groups, inviting skinheads to do likewise, &c Could you please ask them to leave us alone BTD This "klaatu" person posted these to the following groups alt.magick,alt.surfing,alt.skate-board,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Blazin’ Tommy D: The George Wallace National Youth Alliance are KKK Nazis and don’t belong on any of these NGs tony: Oh please go back to alt.teens where you belong . . . . klaatu: he’s not from alt.teens, but apparently from some alternate reality where he imagines he has wisdom to decide who belongs where.

Response:

   Keep this shit out of alt.surfing you KOOKS.    This shit’s so off topic the Carson/JB feud feels right at home.    Take it to alt.kiddie.crap.political.banter   D O   Y  O  U    S  U  R  F  ?????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear abuse The abuse address could not be resolved so I’m forwarding this to the various hate watch groups dealings with anti-Judaics, &c. I am from the NG alt.magick which is a group dedicated to the scholarly discussion of Hermetic philosophy and practice. Several of us including myself are Jewish and we are occasionally harassed by a person using various names that posts anti-Judaic and racist posts to our group and at the same time "cross posts" to various teen groups, inviting skinheads to do likewise, &c Could you please ask them to leave us alone BTD This "klaatu" person posted these to the following groups alt.magick,alt.surfing,alt.skate-board,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Blazin’ Tommy D: The George Wallace National Youth Alliance are KKK Nazis and don’t belong on any of these NGs tony: Oh please go back to alt.teens where you belong . . . . klaatu: he’s not from alt.teens, but apparently from some alternate reality where he imagines he has wisdom to decide who belongs where.

–                    or leap up into the unkown?… "

Response:

The George Wallace National Youth Alliance are KKK Nazis and don’t belong on any of these NGs signed,

Oh please go back to alt.teens where you belong . . . . tony — Tony Knox

Response:

The George Wallace National Youth Alliance are KKK Nazis and don’t belong on any of these NGs signed, The long haired queer commie Jew ballet dancer from alt.magick ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: : :::::::::::: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The Men and Women of the National Alliance P.O. Box 90, Hillsboro, WV 24946, (304) 653-4600 Web site: www.natall.com or www.natvan.com http://www.natvan.com/demands/index.html

Response:

Question:

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-)

I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected.

I was hoping you’d pipe in here.  It was my confusion in a holding pattern up there with you that got me searching for some way to call time out–or the closest thing I can get to that.  That’s probably why you were able to address the question so poignantly despite me not knowing how to ask it. Anyway, thanks.  You da man. — Jim

Response:

7ECA…. Yours is cooler though (Champ, right?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Makes sense to me – but best laid plans are sometimes difficult to follow in the soup. Flying the missed assumes situational awareness.Yes, I could have done my best guess as per the DG – but that would have meant a lot more figuring things out. Seemed prudent to talk to ATC and get back on track. Having said that, the missed was close to coming into play, so your scenario would have been the next step.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful. — True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller.

I can attest to that.  When I had my DG failure in IMC, the first hint I had that anything was wrong was a "say heading?" query from NY Approach. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.

Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Good point, and a good reminder. -Ryan Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

– Ryan Ferguson Pitts S-2C N312PS Twin Comanche 8259Y My flying pictures are at: http://www.fergworld.com

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you.

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) Matt

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner.

Given a choice between a possible CFIT and a possible mid-air, I’ll risk the mid-air any day.  Not only are the mountains bigger targets than the airliners, they also don’t have TCAS. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

<snip of exactly the type of stuff I was looking for but wasn’t sure exactly how to ask–You, too, Ron Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you

take, you will die. Snicker.  Filed in mental "quotable quotes" folder. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

As the other posters have pointed out, the ‘where’, ‘when’, and ‘how’ of lost is a big factor.   Assuming you have at least a NAV/AID available this simply shouldn’t happen at least in the big picture.   If you don’t have it sorted out soon (especially if you are on ‘own nav’) you better ask on the radio! Here’s something I used to do to sharpen my ‘where the hell am I’ skills… I would call up a regional map on my IFR sim (IFT Pro was great for this). Close my eyes and click the mouse to position my A/C on some unforseen random location and then start up the sim, plane in the air, IMC.  Since I new generally where I was (within a 100 miles) I’d start dialing up the VOR’s trying to fix my position.  Of course this is child’s play with a VOR/DME but get’s more challenging if you resign yourself to just the ADF or just the DME.  One of my instructors was so good about teaching VOR/CDI tricks (will this heading intercept the 245 radial?  How close to the station are you?) that getting lost with a working NAV/AID just doesn’t seem likely to me anymore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Most of these issues rely on the principle that if you are headed accurately from a know position, then suddenly switching to a much less accurate form of navigation will result in a badly off position only given a lot of time. Ie., you know your heading, should have a good idea when your next fix eta is, you aren’t going to be far off even if murphy suddenly sticks you back into a dark cockpit with only a flashlight aimed at the compass and your watch. No matter what the situation, radio working or not, is to perform what you were cleared to do. Thats what you last knew, thats what they expect. Circling, doing something odd, whatever, its just going to make the situation worse, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.  The needles are pretty hard to misinterpret.  If you lose electrical you get on your handheld and start talking to ATC. Ryan http://www.fergworld.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Whoops, should be you SHOW me 10 miles….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

ATC would probably not appreciate an unannounced circle and ascent. And, obviously, pulling over isn’t an option.  I’m guessing this is a troll question, but I’ll give it a serious answer anyway. I’ve never had this happen, but it if did, I’d immediately confess to ATC that I’d lost situational awareness and ask them where I was! Matt

Response:

What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller. Immediately circle and ascend?

I suppose it depends where you are.  If you’re in Alaska and in uncontrolled airspace climbing probably won’t make your situation any worse.  In controlled airspace over Iowa it’s a different story. Call "time out" and pull over?

Are you flying a helicopter?  Beware of the traffic behind you.

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain.

The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner. Bottom line is life is not good if you loss situational awareness. The penalty for not paying attention while flying in IMC can be death.  Serious stuff.

Response:

Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

Well, there are always those time/distance exercises you had to learn: go wandering off the airway while you’re lost so you can figure out how far it is to the next checkpoint. Personally, if I had a radio aid to use for that I would just fly to the radio aid and not give a dead rat how far away it is. Basically, lost in IMC is done the same way as lost in VMC: figure out your last know position, check your heading and time from there to approximate your current position, check it against radio aids. Maintain last assigned altitude and heading. Call for radar vectors. Climbing in circles is likely to induce vestibular problems, so don’t do that. If you’ve lost your electrics, backup radios and handheld GPS can be of some help. Again, check your last known position, use your heading and time to approximate where you are now. Check that against MEAs/MORAs. Climb in a straight line, if necessary, and follow IFR lost comm procedures. If you really haven’t got a clue and no help is available, consider other options. If you know you are near a coastline, for example, consider flying out over the ocean and gingerly descending until you can see the water, turn around and fly back to the coast. Use a deliberate offset so that you know you are coming in south, for example, of a known point on the coastline, then follow the coastline up to that point. If you are in a single engine plane in mountainous terrain, IMC at night, lost, and low on fuel, you have what is called a non-critical emergency. Critical emergency: An emergency such that if prompt action is not taken, you will die. Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you take, you will die.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up!

Consider two kinds of lost.  One is being unable to accurately locate your position due to complete electrical failure or some such.  For that kind of case, I carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag (with spare batteries), and I turn it on every week or so for 30 minutes or so to let it update its almanac.  The unit is always kept where I can reach it and retrieve it without looking.  I also carry a handheld radio.  With this, I can find my lat/long quickly and can then dead reckon toward a letdown point, using the GPS occasionally to refine my navigation.  I have practiced this. The other kind of lost is a temporary loss of positional awareness during a busy instrument approach or even a hold.  Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected. This can lead to panic.  In some terrain you just can’t keep flying while you try to figure it out or wait for ATC to call you and ask what the hell is going on, you need to do something fast.  I have been developing the habit of defining my "lost" procedure before entering an approach.  It consists of a heading and an altitude, and I jot it down on my kneeboard and draw a square around it.  The heading is the final aproach course and the altitude is the MSA.  If I get "lost", meaning I have lost positional awareness of exactly where I am relative to the procedure and am confused, my default procedure is to climb like hell and turn to the FAC.  Then I can call ATC and ask for vectors for the missed if I’m still lost.  Not a perfect solution nor a universal one, but it is something, and seems to me to be better than doing nothing and flying into a mountain. This kind of "lost" results from a breakdown or interruption of the mental processes required to execute a procedure while keeping the "picture" in your mind.  If you suddenly "lose the picture", especially while in a maneuver, the resulting disorientation and confusion negates recovery procedures based on application of logical thought processes.  If you can stabilize your situation, such as by just flying a heading, the ability to think logically can return quickly, and then you can puzzle out the problem, but you don’t always have time to do that.  I have heard that this mental lapse of "losing the picture" happens to controllers also. I got "lost" in a hold once in IMC.  I was flying a MAHP with GPS, there was a hefty wind, I got a little off track flying inbound to the holding fix, and somehow misjudged when to start my turn.  When I rolled out of the turn, I couldn’t immediately make any sense of the indications and got confused. I was "lost" in the sense of not knowing where I was relative to the fix. Not good.  In a hold, my default is to fly the outbound heading. I think Jim’s question, which is similar to one posted by Mike Horowitz a while back, is a good one.  Especially for inexperienced instrument pilots, or insufficiently proficient ones, there will be times, however infrequent, when confusion sets in, and it is worthwhile to think through these things and try to come up with no-brain default actions that, while not perfect, are likely to be better than doing nothing. I’m sure some people are so cool and competent that they never get lost or never get confused or panicked when something goes wrong, and I envy them. I have been lost in IMC, in the second sense and on an approach, and it is about the scariest thing I could imagine.  When that happened, I realized that I had to have some simple no-brain procedure to do something if I temporarily lost my thinking power due to confusion.  Otherwise, I would do nothing for a while, perhaps too long. Stan Prevost

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

I’ve never been lost in IMC, but if I were, it would depend where I was flying.  If I was over Iowa at 5,000 I would tell the controller I was lost and get some help.  On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. BTW, how lost is "lost"?  A mile off course?  A hundred miles?  You’re never totally lost, I mean, you know what state your in, right?  :) So you’ll have some basic info about the terrain.   If you get lost while having a total electrical failure you’re on your own, so you better not be lost.  If you are, then use your head and think about the weather and terrain.  Where is the VMC?  Where is the low terrain?  Around here, the lowest terrain is over the ocean.  If I had to get down and had no nav or com capability and widespread low IMC that I couldn’t climb on top of, I’d fly out over the ocean and descend until I was below the clouds, then scud run my way back to the coast.   Of course, with a handheld nav/com, a handheld GPS, extra batteries, etc. I doubt it would ever come to that.  A lot of things would have to break at the same time that the weather was at its absolute worst and I’d have to get lost on top of it all. There are a lot of little failure modes that they don’t necessarily teach you about when you’re training for the instrument rating.  But you learn enough to be able to use your head and make educated decisions when fate (or your own idiocy) throws you a curveball. –Ron

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So long as my  navigation equipment is working, I won’t get lost in IMC. I worry about aircraft control, getting into a steep bank or something, but getting lost is not something that has ever come close to happening. IT is not impossible, if I was out of radio comm and lost my navigation both GPS and VOR (or out of range of VOR). But it’s not likely. Lots of other more likely things to worry about. So long as I am in radar contact and have radio contact, and have Gyros I am OK. Most important navigation equipment is a radio, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Question:

Hi I am off pretty soon for Spring break also, I live just outside of Spokane Wa. for a while I lived in Grangeville ID, Where is a good place to go around here? I moved here about a year and a half ago, but worked it mostly, so I didn’t get out much… I know the canyons at Hell’s gate, or Pittsburgh landing, near White bird ID, should be warming up just a touch, like 65-70, which to me is real warm.. at this point. Or go to Lewiston ID or the S.E. Or side of the Snake river.. I can’t decide… What’s going on now? I mean hatch wise… I also heard the Henry’s Fork was good also in the middle of to end of march.. Any body have any info? Thanks!  R.J. Baynum ICQ 29449252

Response:

<<Hi I am off pretty soon for Spring break also, I live just outside of Spokane Wa. for a while I lived in Grangeville ID, Where is a good place to go around here? I moved here about a year and a half ago, but worked it mostly, so I didn’t get out much… I know the canyons at Hell’s gate, or Pittsburgh landing, near White bird ID, should be warming up just a touch, like 65-70, which to me is real warm.. at this point. Or go to Lewiston ID or the S.E. Or side of the Snake river.. I can’t decide… What’s going on now? I mean hatch wise… I also heard the Henry’s Fork was good also in the middle of to end of march.. Any body have any info? Thanks!  R.J. Baynum ICQ 29449252 Hey R.J.  We need to hook up and go flyfishing together.  I too live about 20 minutes South of Spokane and am always looking for new fishing buddies. The best bet for this time of year is the St. Joe by St. Maries, ID.  Call Propps Fly Shop or the Silver Bow for water conditions and hatch information. They can also direct you to what else is hot right now. There is also some tremendous lake fishing starting to happen in the Columbia Basin.  If  you want to get into some fish over the 20 inch mark the Lake Lenice or Lenore are the places to be. Email me and let’s plan a trip. Mike Wilson

Response:

Question:

This is a skins game.  .50 each per hole.  If we have four or eight players, the first hole is going to be worth 4 Bucks man! Where is your sense of adventure?  The third  hole could be worth $12 dollars!  Why, that is enough to take us out to dinner in North Carolina and I mean . . . everyone! Bring the Pings!  Otherwise we will have to kill you.

I think I’ll take that afternoon off and go nutball huntin’, that’s a million bucks right there<g. — Charlie…

Response:

know how to kibbitz Wayno, you’re hired for half my winnings! George, I teach high performance and pursuit driving to cops.  I  don’t know whether you’d want to be in a golf cart with me. <g  But I can kibbitz.  Sounds like fun. Dave Dave LaCourse

Response:

Oh boy, hog jowls and boiled parsnips. — Ernie Harrison Want something to do? Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a skins game.  .50 each per hole.  If we have four or eight players, the first hole is going to be worth 4 Bucks man! Where is your sense of adventure?  The third  hole could be worth $12 dollars!  Why, that is enough to take us out to dinner in North Carolina and I mean . . . everyone!

Response:

Oh boy, hog jowls and boiled parsnips.

It’s an acquired taste<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Nothing is tastier than Carolina pork barbecue. I’ll have mine with collard greens. Can’t get either up here.. Tim Lysyk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh boy, hog jowls and boiled parsnips. — Ernie Harrison Want something to do? Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh This is a skins game.  .50 each per hole.  If we have four or eight players, the first hole is going to be worth 4 Bucks man! Where is your sense of adventure?  The third  hole could be worth $12 dollars!  Why, that is enough to take us out to dinner in North Carolina and I mean . . . everyone!

Response:

How long does it take to acquire it Charlie? — Ernie Harrison Want something to do? Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh boy, hog jowls and boiled parsnips. It’s an acquired taste<g. — Charlie…

Response:

How long does it take to acquire it Charlie?

Don’t know, not quite there yet<g. On the other hand, meat from the jowls is probably pretty good; if you’ve ever eaten canned chili or stew you have had ‘cheek meat’ from cattle. I worked for a while at a slaughter house in the 60’s when I was in college and you might be surprised what’s in your favorite snack<G. — Charlie…

Response:

How long does it take to acquire it Charlie? Don’t know, not quite there yet<g. On the other hand, meat from the jowls is probably pretty good; if you’ve ever eaten canned chili or stew you have had ‘cheek meat’ from cattle. I worked for a while at a slaughter house in the 60’s when I was in college and you might be surprised what’s in your favorite snack<G. — Charlie…

chili cook-off’ because it so happens, no one makes a better bowl of chili then I do.  They might be ‘almost’ as wonderful, but certainly, not what the Gods of Gink know is an absolute delight.  Hum?  "The Great Gods of Gink Chili-Cook-Off?" Anyhow, I can make a big pot of Gink’s Chili AND "Gink-Dip"  (if you’re laughing Walt I’m going to smack you) which we take with us as a special treat and surprise on our Fly Fishing Float Trips.  Gink Dip is most certainly the "Super Snack" every outdoorsman should know about if they’re looking for something nice and different.  Gink Dip is an invention of mine geared around "White Tuna" and is note enjoyed with a fork but rather with crackers and a refreshment.  Saltines are a favorite. Talk about what might surprise you . . . George —

Question:

Hi. I am looking for your help and information on a project that I have going at present. I am producing a guide to the best places to fish and require information from your area. The information I need is of course the best fishing locations,species to target,methods of catching the fish,tackle used,local tackle shops accommodation etc.Please also classify the type of fishing it is,i.e boat,game,fly,coarse etc…. If the information provided is used,you will receive a credit to your name for providing the information. You may even be contacted as the local guide for the area if you wish. If possible,I would like information as to where the location is,be it by hand drawing or other,the nearest airport and port. This is a big project and your help will be greatly appreciated. Please send details by return e-mail and an acknowledgement will be sent to you. Kind regards. Paul Suggitt If you received this e-mail in error,then please accept my sincere apologies for bothering you. If you type remove in the subject line and return the mail,I will ensure that you will not be bothered again!

Response:

One should be careful of posts like this, it MAY open you up to spam in your personal emailbox, and being added to a master email list for unsolicited ads that get sold these days. Post suggestions to the ng, thats what this is for right? JohnM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi. I am looking for your help and information on a project that I have going at present. I am producing a guide to the best places to fish and require information from your area. The information I need is of course the best fishing locations,species to target,methods of catching the fish,tackle used,local tackle shops accommodation etc.Please also classify the type of fishing it is,i.e boat,game,fly,coarse etc…. If the information provided is used,you will receive a credit to your name for providing the information. You may even be contacted as the local guide for the area if you wish. If possible,I would like information as to where the location is,be it by hand drawing or other,the nearest airport and port. This is a big project and your help will be greatly appreciated. Please send details by return e-mail and an acknowledgement will be sent to you. Kind regards. Paul Suggitt If you received this e-mail in error,then please accept my sincere apologies for bothering you. If you type remove in the subject line and return the mail,I will ensure that you will not be bothered again!

Response:

Hey ,watch out for this guy , I read his post on the NG and the next day got the same crap through my e-mail program. How do you anti-spammerize your e-mail programs. I use 3 different programs to filter some of the crap out. But it still gets through. —– The RodMaker ICQ# 9754996 http://geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2865

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you. — MB  Healy

Response:

Can anyone tell me what it would cost to mail a one ounce letter from Australia to the United States via air mail?  Please supply the postage rate in local currency.  Thank you.

Like most of the civilised world, Australia uses the metric system. Standard size letters up to 20g are $1.05; up to 50g is $1.50. I believe one ounce is approximately 28g, making the cost $1.50. JR

Response:

I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats??

Response:

I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats??

Good question.

Response:

I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats??

What puzzles me is why everybody in this newsgroup is a Liberal. Or a Democrat. — Gordon

Response:

I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats?? What puzzles me is why everybody in this newsgroup is a Liberal. Or a Democrat. — Gordon

I AM NOT!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Gordon wrote… I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats?? What puzzles me is why everybody in this newsgroup is a Liberal. Or a Democrat. It’s the way you set up your kill file :)

ROTFL! I meant Democrat or Republican, I guess! Put it down to ignorance….. — Gordon

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gordon wrote… I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats?? What puzzles me is why everybody in this newsgroup is a Liberal. Or a Democrat. It’s the way you set up your kill file :) ROTFL! I meant Democrat or Republican, I guess! Put it down to ignorance…..

Well, that’s what you get in a country with a two party system.  BTW, Pooler is neither. cheers bob

Response:

In article

I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats?? What puzzles me is why everybody in this newsgroup is a Liberal. Or a Democrat. — Gordon

All the U.S. participants are part of what some chose to call a "Two Party System"……

Response:

Gordon wrote… In article

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats?? What puzzles me is why everybody in this newsgroup is a Liberal. Or a Democrat. It’s the way you set up your kill file :) ROTFL! I meant Democrat or Republican, I guess! Put it down to ignorance….. Well, that’s what you get in a country with a two party system. BTW, Pooler is neither. cheers bob

And, BTW, neither is the Nixon. I voted the Reform Party in the last National Election and am likely to do so again……. McDAve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gordon wrote… In article I’m doing a research paper for Tom Daschle. Please help. Why is it that almost all of the ARAB terrorists they’ve discovered within our country, are registered Democrats?? What puzzles me is why everybody in this newsgroup is a Liberal. Or a Democrat. It’s the way you set up your kill file :) I meant Democrat or Republican, I guess! Put it down to ignorance….. Well, that’s what you get in a country with a two party system. BTW, Pooler is neither. And, BTW, neither is the Nixon. I voted the Reform Party in the last National Election and am likely to do so again…….

Well, I’m all for revolution, sorry – reform. — Gordon

Response:

Question:

–snip– in my Vette.  

–snip– I drive an SUV just to prove that my penis extension is larger than yours. don’t it just piss ya off. hahahahaha |Bill and Dawn ‘94 Ford Bronco |               ‘85 Honda Magna V30       |               ‘72 Olds Cutlass Supreme | |Sure it’s an overgrown stationwagon. What’s your point? |   |Email address changed due to growing Auto-SPAM.

Response:

Sure, a 12 year old subaru = will get you to any ski area or through the worst weather Buffalo = has to offer, but it won’t make your neighbours go ‘oooh’.

Not this neighbor.  Try  

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Rainbows and cutts will interbreed in the wild, but it’s a little more complicated than that.  For example, they won’t interbreed where they evolved together in the same river because they occupy different niches and spawn differently (West slope cutts and redband rainbow exist together in several rivers).  However, if you introduce rainbow into waters where cutthroats are native and rainbow are not, such as the Madison, they will interbreed.  Such is the danger of stocking. I don’t normally like to see stocking in rivers that support wild trout, but if the rainbows (non-native planted in the 30’s) are done for in the Madison, and they want to re-introduce the native west slope cutthroat from pure strain stocks (which they believe they have), it would be nice to have the native fish back in the Madison.  

Hi Dan, Glad to see you back on the group. The Montana fish and game people I’ve talked with also advised that the cutthroat spawn in the tributaries where there is not whirling disease and stay there for a couple of years before returning to the main river. In that time their skeletal structure grows from grissle to bone — their skeleton is supposed to be only effected by the disease when it is in the grissle state. Rainbows on the others hand spawn in the tributaries and return to the main river soon after while their skeletal structure is still grissle. Have a great 1997. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

 Rainbows and cutts will interbreed in the wild, but it’s a little more complicated than that.  For example, they won’t interbreed where they evolved together in the same river because they occupy different niches and spawn differently (West slope cutts and redband rainbow exist together in several rivers).  However, if you introduce rainbow into waters where cutthroats are native and rainbow are not, such as the Madison, they will interbreed.  Such is the danger of stocking.

The Montana DFW page ( http://fwp.mt.gov/ ) has some great info on the project.   The impression I get is that even though cutts and bows will cross breed when stocked together, they don’t expect much in the way of cross breeding because there are so few rainbows left in the Madison. I don’t normally like to see stocking in rivers that support wild trout, but if the rainbows (non-native planted in the 30’s) are done for in the Madison, and they want to re-introduce the native west slope cutthroat from pure strain stocks (which they believe they have), it would be nice to have the native fish back in the Madison.  the areas they are talking about re-stocking with Cutts is being checked for the prescence of tubifex worms (carriers of whirling disease) and thought to have low quantities of both tubifex worms and infected rainbows. The question then becomes how much stocking is enough, and how long will it take to develop wild natives from the hatchery natives.   Of course, they could just leave it alone and let the brown trout take over, but then they aren’t as easy to catch as the cutts.                                          Hmmmmm,                                               Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

Al, Thanks for sharing this information with us.  This is indeed very interesting.  Here in Oregon we have a lot of native cutthroat and they are great to fish.  They will attack a fly like it’s the last morsel on earth.  The hatcheries like to stock them (they are hardier) as well as a cross they produce with rainbow they call a cutbow.  I wonder if the cutts and rainbow would cross in the Madison.  I don’t know if they will cross in the wild.  we have streams that contain both.  If they did where would the young grow?

  Rainbows and cutts will interbreed in the wild, but it’s a little more complicated than that.  For example, they won’t interbreed where they evolved together in the same river because they occupy different niches and spawn differently (West slope cutts and redband rainbow exist together in several rivers).  However, if you introduce rainbow into waters where cutthroats are native and rainbow are not, such as the Madison, they will interbreed.  Such is the danger of stocking. Rob Gregoire                                                        | Pocatello, Id              

Response:

  There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . Visit     http"//fwp.mt.gov/    and take a look. Sounds good so far … any thoughts ? if so, CC to   Dave Hagengruber   Harry

Hi Harry I know there will be those against the plan but after a long conversation with a Montana fish biologist I’m supporting the plan.  What he shared with me was very encouraging based on a whole lot of information I can not put in here but basically this is it in a very boiled down version: Cutthroat trout spawn in small tributaries and REMAIN there for a couple of years (while their bones turn from grissle to real bone). Rainbows spawn in the tributaries and return to the main river while their bones are still grissle rather than bone. Supposedly whirling disease attacks the fish while their skeletal structure is still grissle. This is a short version of a several hour discussion with the folks that seem to know a heck of a lot more than I do. Will it work? I have no ideas but the stuff they shared with me sounded good at least. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

  There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . Visit     http"//fwp.mt.gov/    and take a look. Sounds good so far … any thoughts ? if so, CC to   Dave Hagengruber I’ll take cutt’s in montana over bows, browns and brookies any day of the week.  They belong there, right ? TimW

I agree, they where there years back, just like the Grayling. I do not know if the plan will work but I like the idea of "something" being done to try and combat WD.   Hm  

Response:

  There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . Visit     http"//fwp.mt.gov/    and take a look. Sounds good so far … any thoughts ? if so, CC to   Dave Hagengruber   Harry

Response:

 There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . Visit     http"//fwp.mt.gov/    and take a look. Sounds good so far … any thoughts ? if so, CC to   Dave Hagengruber  Harry

   Sorry, fat fingers, the URL is    http://fwp.mt.gov/      Harry  ( Nice page in any event g< )

Response:

  There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . Visit     http"//fwp.mt.gov/    and take a look. Sounds good so far … any thoughts ? if so, CC to   Dave Hagengruber

I’ll take cutt’s in montana over bows, browns and brookies any day of the week.  They belong there, right ? TimW

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . Visit     http"//fwp.mt.gov/    and take a look. Sounds good so far … any thoughts ? if so, CC to   Dave Hagengruber I’ll take cutt’s in montana over bows, browns and brookies any day of the week.  They belong there, right ? TimW I agree, they where there years back, just like the Grayling. I do not know if the plan will work but I like the idea of "something" being done to try and combat WD.  Hm  

Ain’t WHIRLING DISEASE somethin them square dancer get when they dance too long? DJones

Response:

While stocking always sounds like a good idea, fact is that it was stocking hatchery fish that brought whirling disease into existing populations. There is also the matter of genetic intergression if one stocks fish from another watershed into another where a native stock already exists.  If the Madison is completely devoid of cutts, intergression would not be a problem; however if any native fish remain, their genes will be lost when the new stock takes over. — Don Jordan POB 2357 Chiefland, FL 32644 http://ripserv.com/indyjones

Its my understanding that the rainbow below Quake Lake were restocked after the earthquake because of fisk kill resulting from the landslide at Quake Lake.  Can some of you Montanans with long memories shed any light on this? Jim

Response:

While stocking always sounds like a good idea, fact is that it was stocking hatchery fish that brought whirling disease into existing populations. There is also the matter of genetic intergression if one stocks fish from another watershed into another where a native stock already exists.  If the Madison is completely devoid of cutts, intergression would not be a problem; however if any native fish remain, their genes will be lost when the new stock takes over. — Don Jordan POB 2357 Chiefland, FL 32644 http://ripserv.com/indyjones

Response:

While stocking always sounds like a good idea, fact is that it was stocking hatchery fish that brought whirling disease into existing populations.

No, Don.    What brought whirling disease into existing populations was stocking SICK hatchery fish.  Stocking per se is not the problem. that is not to say, however, tht it is the solution either.  I think that it is not. But, although I am generally opposed to stocking hatchery fish in rivers where there are wild populations, I have become convinced this idea withthe cutts may be worth a try.  I had most of my reservations addressed by the excellent coverage of the project on the Montana FW&P web page.  You really ought to check it out.  I can’t give you the exact address, but you should be able to get to it.  Let me know if you cannot, and I will get it for you. There is also the matter of genetic intergression if one stocks fish from another watershed into another where a native stock already exists.  If the Madison is completely devoid of cutts, intergression would not be a problem; however if any native fish remain, their genes will be lost when the new stock takes over.

I am not a biologist, but I do not believe this will be a problem. Take a look at the discussion I just cited.  As I stated, I generally am not a supporter of stocking in wild trout waters, an even stronger opponent is Dick Vincent whose 1970’s study led to the cessation of stocking in Montana rivers.  He is in favor of the proposed project with the cutts.  That says a lot to me. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

Response:

snip   I had most of my reservations addressed by the excellent coverage of the project on the Montana FW&P web page.  You really ought to check it out.  I can’t give you the exact address, but you should be able to get to it.   Lyman G. Hughes snip

Montana’s web page addres is:  http://www.fwp.mt.gov/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

Response:

  There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . I’ll take cutt’s in montana over bows, browns and brookies any day of the week.  They belong there, right ? TimW

I think you are right.  The cutthroat are always native it seems in our most inaccessible waters in the west.  So they surely belong.  A damn great fighter too. -Burton

Response:

  There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . Cutthroat trout spawn in small tributaries and REMAIN there for a couple of years (while their bones turn from grissle to real bone). Rainbows spawn in the tributaries and return to the main river while their bones are still grissle rather than bone. Supposedly whirling disease attacks the fish while their skeletal structure is still grissle. This is a short

Al, Thanks for sharing this information with us.  This is indeed very interesting.  Here in Oregon we have a lot of native cutthroat and they are great to fish.  They will attack a fly like it’s the last morsel on earth.  The hatcheries like to stock them (they are hardier) as well as a cross they produce with rainbow they call a cutbow.  I wonder if the cutts and rainbow would cross in the Madison.  I don’t know if they will cross in the wild.  we have streams that contain both.  If they did where would the young grow? -Burton

Response:

Its my understanding that the rainbow below Quake Lake were restocked after the earthquake because of fisk kill resulting from the landslide at Quake Lake.  Can some of you Montanans with long memories shed any light on this? Jim

Good question.  I don’t know the answer specifically, but stocking was fairly common in the Madison until Dick Vincent’s study showed that stocking actually was detrimental to the wild trout fishery.  I believe that study was in the early 70’s.   The quake was in ‘59, so what you suggest is possible. Lyman Lyman G. Hughes Dallas, TX Ennis, MT

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   There is a plan afoot to stock the Madison  with Westslope Cutt’s . I’ll take cutt’s in montana over bows, browns and brookies any day of the week.  They belong there, right ? TimW I think you are right.  The cutthroat are always native it seems in our most inaccessible waters in the west.  So they surely belong.  A damn great fighter too. -Burton

Burton    "point your browser to"         http://fwp.mt.gov/      Nice page, good info   HM

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cross they produce with rainbow they call a cutbow.  I wonder if the cutts and rainbow would cross in the Madison.  I don’t know if they cross in the wild.  we have streams that contain both.  If they Rainbows and cutts will interbreed in the wild, but it’s a little more complicated than that.  For example, they won’t interbreed where they evolved together in the same river because they occupy different niches and spawn differently (West slope cutts and redband rainbow exist together in several rivers).  However, if you introduce rainbow into waters where cutthroats are native and rainbow are not, such as the Madison, they will interbreed.  Such is the danger of stocking. Rob Gregoire

Ah so, that’s what I suspected.  Thanks for the response Rob.  I know the McKenzie River had redsides and cutthroat both, but the cutts are only found in the lower reaches of the river.  There are rainbows in the lower part of the river, but I have never caught a cutt in the upper rainbow rich region. Merry Christmas to all and Happy New Year, -Burton

Response:

Question:

If you don’t mind sharing, where are the secret holes. My wife and I will be there later this week and would love a little help as I’m hoping she’ll catch something memorable and get a little hooked herself. We’ll be in the area only for a 24 hour period. We’ll be staying in manchester and the next day heading to West Lebanon, NH. Any suggestions for any other places we might hit  would also be appreciated. Ira Clair

Response:

Try the Nature Conservancy pond up on the hill above Manchester. Plenty of room to cast or wade, and some very large trout. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly If you don’t mind sharing, where are the secret holes. My wife and I will be there later this week and would love a little help as I’m hoping she’ll catch something memorable and get a little hooked herself. We’ll be in the area only for a 24 hour period. We’ll be staying in manchester and the next day heading to West Lebanon, NH. Any suggestions for any other places we might hit  would also be appreciated. Ira Clair

Response:

Bad news the legend of the Battenkill is the mith of the battenkill.  My son-in-law ans I were up there July 4th weekend all excited about fishing the great battenkill.  The average size of the fish we caught was 3"  yes thats three inches.  good luck but don’t be depressed if the big ones aren’t there

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Bad news the legend of the Battenkill is the mith of the battenkill.  My son-in-law ans I were up there July 4th weekend all excited about fishing the great battenkill.  The average size of the fish we caught was 3"  yes thats three inches.  good luck but don’t be depressed if the big ones aren’t there

They really are in the ‘kill, but big browns don’t come out for the fireworks too often.     steve d.

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Question:

Mike:   The best Fly rods I use here in Oregon aren’t Sage or Orvis. I feel the best buy is either a Diamondback (Stowe, VT) or a Powell Rod (Chico,CA). Both of these rods can be purchased from $325 to $385 and the warranties are great… Ralph Glazier South Fork Fly Fishing Alsea, OR.

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I recently aquired a fly rod in an aluminum case. The rod is in a cloth case that has the name Lyon and Caulson, Buffalo NY. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about this rod or if the company is still in buisness. I don’t fish, so I’d like to get rid of it if anyone is interested. The rod appears to be in perfect shape. It has "Regent #103" just above the handle. If anyone knows anything about it or is interested in it please E-Mail me. Thanks. Rob

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Question:

Dear Casters .                         We are now taking bookings for the summer of 96 , for our Atlantic Salmon Fly Fishing School that is conducted at my three star lodge on the world famous Miramichi River , guests arive on sunday and depart the following sunday , the course is indepth with instruction covering all aspects of Atlantic Salmon Fly Fishing the true way , you will learn the true Miramichi WAY . The course starts with a tour of the Miramichi , the Atlantic Salmon mesume and hatchery , instruction in rod setups , casting , playing , landing , and care of fish , also river conduct , ecology , biology , life cycle , fishing the black and bright Salmon ,  and fly tying of the most deadly of the secret Miramichi flies , what works where and why , the art is opened up in this course . The course is $ 1050.00 american for all meals , three star graded accomidations , instruction and equipment supplied , no suprises or hidden costs . Book early by contacting . Thomas MacLean Miramichi Four Season Outfitters Inc RR # 2 Miramichi City Box 705 E1V-3L9 New Brunswick Canada   1-506-622-0089

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Casters .                        We are now taking bookings for the summer of 96 , for our Atlantic Salmon Fly Fishing School that is conducted at my three star lodge on the world famous Miramichi River , guests arive on sunday and depart the following sunday , the course is indepth with instruction covering all aspects of Atlantic Salmon Fly Fishing the true way , you will learn the true Miramichi WAY . The course starts with a tour of the Miramichi , the Atlantic Salmon mesume and hatchery , instruction in rod setups , casting , playing , landing , and care of fish , also river conduct , ecology , biology , life cycle , fishing the black and bright Salmon ,  and fly tying of the most deadly of the secret Miramichi flies , what works where and why , the art is opened up in this course . The course is $ 1050.00 american for all meals , three star graded accomidations , instruction and equipment supplied , no suprises or hidden costs . Book early by contacting . Thomas MacLean Miramichi Four Season Outfitters Inc RR # 2 Miramichi City Box 705 E1V-3L9 New Brunswick Canada   1-506-622-0089

You’re asking for a flaming!!! Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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