Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My son will be turning 8 in a few months and has begun showing interest in our sport.  Does anyone have any suggestions for a good beginners set-up. I want something that will last, but doesn’t break the bank.  I’d consider a rod and reel combo up to $200.  We normally fish small trout rivers and since we live in So.Cal. most of our fishing requires extensive traveling, often on any airplane, i.e. a three or four piece.  For example we will be hitting the Battenkill in Vermont this summer.  Anybody’s 2 cents are welcome.  Thanks, Todd My feeling is that you would be better making short trips to "put and take" ponds or similar, and fishing with worms etc if necessary. Eight year olds rarely possess the attention span required for intensive fly-fishing, and their success rate is accordingly low. This leads to frustration, and reduces interest even further, and may result in them giving up. Take him somewhere where he will catch fish. It does not matter how.  Do not fish yourself, devote your time and attention to him, but without crowding him.  let HIM fish, do not take the rod off him when he hooks a fish, show him how to cast, bait up etc, and then LEAVE HIM ALONE.  Constant barrages of advice are useless, and defeat the object of the exercise. Answer questions, and demonstrate if necessary but only when asked. Take a fly-rod along and the gear ( yours, not a "kid-rig" ), and show him how it works for a short while.   He will soon get the idea.  The main thing is, he MUST CATCH FISH, and he MUST NOT GET THE FEELING THAT HE IS BEING FORCED TO DO SOMETHING. TL MC

Good advice, if you feel you must start with fishing.  I had probably been casting for a year or more before I started fishing with a flyrod.  I fished, just not with a flyrod.  It was made into a game, with practice flies and ring targets on my Grandfather’s casting lawn. It taught me proper and varied technique, as well as patience.  IIRC, once I started fishing, this training seemed to also help with the "not catching anything" problem so often attributed to the disinterest of younger anglers – I could at least try to be accurate, and try various casts and techniques.  Eventually, I could catch as many fish as the older anglers.   As to what I started on, the first rod was an old fiberglass 8ft. 2 or 3 weight which had first been my mother’s "training rod" in her youth. After I had casting and rod care reasonably down, I was pretty much allowed to use whatever, within reason, but tended not to fool with rods that were someone’s _personal_ rod(s).   If I were you, I would just get a smallish (under 6 and no more than 8.5 feet), cheap (even used) rod, glass or graphite, it doesn’t matter at this point, of medium-ish action.  If you need to buy an additional reel, the cheapest reel I could find (a Martin 61, perhaps), and a decent, but not top-of-the-line, WF line of proper weight.  I would use small-ish bucktail "whiffs" or cut the entire bend and most of the shank from streamers (get really bright, bushy ones – overdressed commercial ties are actually better here).  Also, get inexpensive tapered leaders, at least in the beginning. I would then begin casting (not fishing) lessons if you are knowledgable _and_ patient enough.  Be honest with yourself in this regard.  If you aren’t BOTH, find someone who is – you and the child will come out better and happier.  If the child wants to go cast, let them.  Some say it is difficult to break bad habits once learned, but it even more difficult to learn without doing, IMO, and kids, unfettered, tend to fare alright in this regard.  Of course, YMMV. TC, R

Response:

My son will be turning 8 in a few months and has begun showing interest in our sport.  Does anyone have any suggestions for a good beginners set-up.  I want something that will last, but doesn’t break the bank.  I’d consider a rod and reel combo up to $200.  We normally fish small trout rivers and since we live in So.Cal. most of our fishing requires extensive traveling, often on any airplane, i.e. a three or four piece.  For example we will be hitting the Battenkill in Vermont this summer.  Anybody’s 2 cents are welcome.  Thanks, Todd

Response:

My son will be turning 8 in a few months and has begun showing interest in our sport.  Does anyone have any suggestions for a good beginners set-up.  I want something that will last, but doesn’t break the bank.  I’d consider a rod and reel combo up to $200.  We normally fish small trout rivers and since we live in So.Cal. most of our fishing requires extensive traveling, often on any airplane, i.e. a three or four piece.  For example we will be hitting the Battenkill in Vermont this summer.  Anybody’s 2 cents are welcome.  Thanks, Todd

Todd, You might want to check out Cabela’s.  Several people on this newsgroup have bought these and have been happy with them as near as I can tell.  I had the opportunity to try one out last summer and found it to be better than I expected.  They aren’t expensive and will fall well below your $200 price range, Cabela’s backs their products very well, and they are decent rods.  What I didn’t like about them was that some of the components aren’t high quality, but they work.  I didn’t like the reel seat or grips, but the rod did perform nicely and the blank is a far better than I imagined it would be.  Overall, I would give the rod a passing grade and found it to cast extremely well.  I have been toying with the idea of buying one myself as a pack rod since my Sage met an untimely end.  (If anyone finds it on the bottom of the Yellowstone, can you return it?) <g Here is an url for you to look at: http://www.cabelas.com/texis/scripts/store/+/CatalogDisplay/displayPO… — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

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Todd, You might want to check out Cabela’s.  

…or, e-mail my good friend walt winter at ezflyfish.com.  he’ll give you good advice and sell you a good product within your price range.  i dislike cabela’s… jeff

Response:

My son will be turning 8 in a few months and has begun showing interest in our sport.  Does anyone have any suggestions for a good beginners set-up. I want something that will last, but doesn’t break the bank.  I’d consider a rod and reel combo up to $200.  We normally fish small trout rivers and since we live in So.Cal. most of our fishing requires extensive traveling, often on any airplane, i.e. a three or four piece.  For example we will be hitting the Battenkill in Vermont this summer.  Anybody’s 2 cents are welcome.  Thanks, Todd

My feeling is that you would be better making short trips to "put and take" ponds or similar, and fishing with worms etc if necessary. Eight year olds rarely possess the attention span required for intensive fly-fishing, and their success rate is accordingly low. This leads to frustration, and reduces interest even further, and may result in them giving up. Take him somewhere where he will catch fish. It does not matter how.  Do not fish yourself, devote your time and attention to him, but without crowding him.  let HIM fish, do not take the rod off him when he hooks a fish, show him how to cast, bait up etc, and then LEAVE HIM ALONE.  Constant barrages of advice are useless, and defeat the object of the exercise. Answer questions, and demonstrate if necessary but only when asked. Take a fly-rod along and the gear ( yours, not a "kid-rig" ), and show him how it works for a short while.   He will soon get the idea.  The main thing is, he MUST CATCH FISH, and he MUST NOT GET THE FEELING THAT HE IS BEING FORCED TO DO SOMETHING. TL MC

Response:

Take him somewhere where he will catch fish. It does not matter how.  Do not fish yourself, devote your time and attention to him, but without crowding him.  let HIM fish, do not take the rod off him when he hooks a fish, show him how to cast, bait up etc, and then LEAVE HIM ALONE.  Constant barrages of advice are useless, and defeat the object of the exercise.

I introduced my daughter to fishing at a little plunge pool in Montana’s Bob Marshall Wilderness. This was carefully planned out. I knew from a previous trip that the little trout in this pool were so eager that they’d jump into the air to get the fly before it landed. If a fly managed to make it to the surface it would last only a few seconds. She caught a fish immediately. As luck would have it, the fish was hooked in the eye, and she was so grossed out she wouldn’t fish any more. The next summer we took a raft trip down the Middle Fork of the Salmon, which is a fishing dream trip. I bought her a Cabella’s Three Forks 3 weight combo and she never even used it, despite my broad hints. Oh well. At least I had Three Forks combo to lend to Warren when he forgot to bring his rod to Jack Creek. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Question:

I posted in too much haste, I was just too excited about his possibilities. I am afraid I was too insulting.  I did not mean to imply that he wasn’t already famous. I will use it no matter what he calls it although I would have to think about it if it was "Missed-Bass Knot".  I have too many reminders of that now. AL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, Al, but who’s going to want to tie a lure on with a knot called "Missed-a-Bass knot?"  :-))  Shawn, you gotta use your real name on this if you want to become famous. Warren1 Here’s your chance to become famous!  Heck, just reading your note I can see some possiblities. AL "Missed-a-Bass" wrote I came up with my own version of the Pitzen, just ’cause I’m a putz [PUTZIE] and couldn’t remember what snip So what is my modified Pitzen called? It holds up wonderfully…I couldn’t have thought this up myself…where’s Rodney when you need him! Shawn [SHAWNNY] snip

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It’s all good AL. I can take it…been there, done that. — Early to Bed, Early to Rise… Fish all Day, Make up Lies. Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I posted in too much haste, I was just too excited about his possibilities. I am afraid I was too insulting.  I did not mean to imply that he wasn’t already famous. I will use it no matter what he calls it although I would have to think about it if it was "Missed-Bass Knot".  I have too many reminders of that now. AL Yeah, Al, but who’s going to want to tie a lure on with a knot called "Missed-a-Bass knot?"  :-))  Shawn, you gotta use your real name on this if you want to become famous. Warren1 Here’s your chance to become famous!  Heck, just reading your note I can see some possiblities. AL "Missed-a-Bass" wrote I came up with my own version of the Pitzen, just ’cause I’m a putz [PUTZIE] and couldn’t remember what snip So what is my modified Pitzen called? It holds up wonderfully…I couldn’t have thought this up myself…where’s Rodney when you need him! Shawn [SHAWNNY] snip

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You’ve got a point there ol’ W1 but maybe I should take this opportunity to explain my screen name. I’m always taking the brunt of fishing jokes/tales, yet those that mock me ask advice. Hence "Missed-A-Bass" (say it fast 3 times.. sounds like Mr. Bass don’t ya think?) I think that’s called an Al-go-rhythm.    LMAO! — Early to Bed, Early to Rise… Fish all Day, Make up Lies. Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah, Al, but who’s going to want to tie a lure on with a knot called "Missed-a-Bass knot?"  :-))  Shawn, you gotta use your real name on this if you want to become famous. Warren1 Here’s your chance to become famous!  Heck, just reading your note I can see some possiblities. AL "Missed-a-Bass" wrote I came up with my own version of the Pitzen, just ’cause I’m a putz [PUTZIE] and couldn’t remember what snip So what is my modified Pitzen called? It holds up wonderfully…I couldn’t have thought this up myself…where’s Rodney when you need him! Shawn [SHAWNNY] snip

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Here’s your chance to become famous!  Heck, just reading your note I can see some possiblities. AL "Missed-a-Bass" wrote I came up with my own version of the Pitzen, just ’cause I’m a putz

[PUTZIE] and couldn’t remember what snip So what is my modified Pitzen called? It holds up wonderfully…I couldn’t have thought this up myself…where’s Rodney when you need him! Shawn [SHAWNNY]

snip

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Yeah, Al, but who’s going to want to tie a lure on with a knot called "Missed-a-Bass knot?"  :-))  Shawn, you gotta use your real name on this if you want to become famous. Warren1

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s your chance to become famous!  Heck, just reading your note I can see some possiblities. AL "Missed-a-Bass" wrote I came up with my own version of the Pitzen, just ’cause I’m a putz [PUTZIE] and couldn’t remember what snip So what is my modified Pitzen called? It holds up wonderfully…I couldn’t have thought this up myself…where’s Rodney when you need him! Shawn [SHAWNNY] snip

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If you want to do more "research’ [Bob, you will find your description given there by one of the posters] on this go to:  http://www.sport-fish-info.com/wwwboard/messages/9012.html One thing you will find they are as confused as we can become on this board. I suspect it is as CA Bill states it is currently called San Diego Knot when it is doubled but it is still in my opinion a variance of a Pitzen Knot which no one on that board seems to have a hint of either.  I am sorry I can’t find my notes on the history of this knot but Pitzen was a long ago German fisher that the credit I saw was given to him for devising this knot. The variations of this knot are used by Tuna fishers on the West Coast, for one, and they are well convinced that this is basically a good, reliable, and strong knot, no matter the variance in tying it. If I ever find my ‘brain’ for the history of  the Pitzen Knot I will post, but don’t hold your breath. I also use a  loop knot as a companion to the Pitzen Knot because I remove or do not use split rings for attaching line to lure.  I use the Buffer Loop Knot for quick and easy tie of a Loop or for confidence I use the Rapala Loop, however,  I have made mistakes tying the Rapala Loop and the lure came loose.  Hence, the trade off in getting too complicated in knot tying techniques. AL

Al, after thinking about it a few minutes and looking at the link Shawn provided [a link to Pitzen Knot, AL] I realized you are right.  Might dub

it the double Pitzen knot, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – until Tony claims the right to name it himself. snip

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Al, after thinking about it a few minutes and looking at the link Shawn provided, I realized you are right.  Might dub it the double Pitzen knot, until Tony claims the right to name it himself. Have never had one break off, unless I forgot to retie between trips and the line had deteriorated.  Because of the doubled line and its cinching power, it slips less than any other knot I have used on spinnerbaits. —    Go Fishing.  And may your fish be as big as your tales.    Columbia, SC  Lake Murray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob, I understood your description.  I like the feature that the doubled eye line is incorporated into the knot and the standing line.  Might be easier to understand for those familiar with tying the Pitzen Knot which is what I use. Jamie,   The Pitzen Knot strength is allegedly close to a 100% line strength. AL .snip I have tried to explain his knot, but it apparently is not clear, and I have the graphic skills of a snail. I think I’ll try out the Pitzen next, and check out the Uni for loop knots.

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the Pitzen Knot I will post, but don’t hold your breath.

OK, Overcame my tunnel vision,  Jamie probably saw this!  It is at the bottom of the sites description that he posted. "The Pitzen knot, Invented by Edgar Pitzenbauer of Germany is easy to tie with a little practice, and results in a knot the [sic] retains 95-100% of the tippet’s rated strength as opposed to 65% for a Clinch knot.  The Pitzen knot is also smaller by about 40%" AL

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Ya know it’s a funny thing….while driving today I was thinking of the Pitzen knot. Back 2-3 years ago when I was learning to tie fishing knots I came up with my own version of the Pitzen, just ’cause I’m a putz and couldn’t remember what the heck I was doing. The only difference is I would run the tag through the hook eye one more time, just before threading it through the original loop, then snug it up. Once I learned the Palomar I forgot everything else. So what is my modified Pitzen called? It holds up wonderfully…I couldn’t have thought this up myself…where’s Rodney when you need him! — Early to Bed, Early to Rise… Fish all Day, Make up Lies. Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al, after thinking about it a few minutes and looking at the link Shawn provided, I realized you are right.  Might dub it the double Pitzen knot, until Tony claims the right to name it himself. Have never had one break off, unless I forgot to retie between trips and the line had deteriorated.  Because of the doubled line and its cinching power, it slips less than any other knot I have used on spinnerbaits. —    Go Fishing.  And may your fish be as big as your tales.    Columbia, SC  Lake Murray Bob, I understood your description.  I like the feature that the doubled eye line is incorporated into the knot and the standing line.  Might be easier to understand for those familiar with tying the Pitzen Knot which is what I use. Jamie,   The Pitzen Knot strength is allegedly close to a 100% line strength. AL .snip I have tried to explain his knot, but it apparently is not clear, and I have the graphic skills of a snail. I think I’ll try out the Pitzen next, and check out the Uni for loop knots.

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The San Diego knot is similar, but you run the line through the loop by the eye first, before the one at the top. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And for those of you who would like to see the Pitzen knot, try this… www.agron.missouri.edu/flyfishing/pitzen.html — Early to Bed, Early to Rise… Fish all Day, Make up Lies. Shawn Bob, I understood your description.  I like the feature that the doubled eye line is incorporated into the knot and the standing line.  Might be easier to understand for those familiar with tying the Pitzen Knot which is what I use. Jamie,   The Pitzen Knot strength is allegedly close to a 100% line strength. AL .snip I have tried to explain his knot, but it apparently is not clear, and I have the graphic skills of a snail. I think I’ll try out the Pitzen next, and check out the Uni for loop knots.

Response:

Bob, I understood your description.  I like the feature that the doubled eye line is incorporated into the knot and the standing line.  Might be easier to understand for those familiar with tying the Pitzen Knot which is what I use. Jamie,   The Pitzen Knot strength is allegedly close to a 100% line strength. AL

.snip I have tried to explain his knot, but it apparently is not clear, and I have the graphic skills of a snail. I think I’ll try out the Pitzen next, and check out the Uni for loop

knots.

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And for those of you who would like to see the Pitzen knot, try this… www.agron.missouri.edu/flyfishing/pitzen.html — Early to Bed, Early to Rise… Fish all Day, Make up Lies. Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob, I understood your description.  I like the feature that the doubled eye line is incorporated into the knot and the standing line.  Might be easier to understand for those familiar with tying the Pitzen Knot which is what I use. Jamie,   The Pitzen Knot strength is allegedly close to a 100% line strength. AL .snip I have tried to explain his knot, but it apparently is not clear, and I have the graphic skills of a snail. I think I’ll try out the Pitzen next, and check out the Uni for loop knots.

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I was just reading the knot thread from mid-March, and I’ve got some more questions. I wanted to know if there’s a resource that has some real statistics on breaking strength of different knots (and also considerations as to their appropriateness with different # test monos). Also, I conducted a little experiment with knot comparisons: I had two key-ring sized split-rings, and I tied two different knots on each side (8# test). I yanked them apart until something gave. I only compared the Trilene, Palomar, Improved Clinch, and Rapala (loop). My informal (and unrecorded) findings of order of strength, highest to lowest. *Trilene *Palomar (usually was beaten by the Trilene) *Improved Clinch (pretty low breaking strength) *Rapala (very low breaking strengh, ughh.. it’s what I’ve been using on jerkbaits, topwaters, etc.) I think I’ll try out the Pitzen next, and check out the Uni for loop knots.  ALSO, I regularly hit the search engines, and ask the group, about once every two months: Does anyone have a picture of how to tie the Jimmy Houston Knot (supposed to be very close to 100% knot strength)? (Hint: the picture in "Caught Me a Big ‘Un…" is incomplete, so please don’t tell me to look there, unless you can tell me the missing step). Thanks a bunch, Jamie

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Jamie, the short answer is all line manufacturers have a machine to test their lines with different knots.  From this, you would assume that they recommend knots that work best with their line. Just haven’t seen a line manufacturer mention Tony Bean’s knot, which is the strongest knot I have used. Help me here, TNBass, after you get back from the TN Classic.  Tony is a Tennessee small-mouth guide and is reputed to have won many tournaments.  Do you know how to contact him?  I have tried to explain his knot, but it apparently is not clear, and I have the graphic skills of a snail. —    Go Fishing.  And may your fish be as big as your tales.    Columbia, SC  Lake Murray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just reading the knot thread from mid-March, and I’ve got some more questions. I wanted to know if there’s a resource that has some real statistics on breaking strength of different knots (and also considerations as to their appropriateness with different # test monos). Also, I conducted a little experiment with knot comparisons: I had two key-ring sized split-rings, and I tied two different knots on each side (8# test). I yanked them apart until something gave. I only compared the Trilene, Palomar, Improved Clinch, and Rapala (loop). My informal (and unrecorded) findings of order of strength, highest to lowest. *Trilene *Palomar (usually was beaten by the Trilene) *Improved Clinch (pretty low breaking strength) *Rapala (very low breaking strengh, ughh.. it’s what I’ve been using on jerkbaits, topwaters, etc.) I think I’ll try out the Pitzen next, and check out the Uni for loop knots.  ALSO, I regularly hit the search engines, and ask the group, about once every two months: Does anyone have a picture of how to tie the Jimmy Houston Knot (supposed to be very close to 100% knot strength)? (Hint: the picture in "Caught Me a Big ‘Un…" is incomplete, so please don’t tell me to look there, unless you can tell me the missing step). Thanks a bunch, Jamie

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Question:

Today I finally found the time to head up to Boone and fish for trout. It had been nearly two months since my last visit. Fortunately, I was able to bring along an ex-ROFFian celebrity guest which had the added bonus of providing Waldo a bit of motivation to join us for the day. I think I can safely speak for all of three us when I say that we had a great time. After taking care of a few errands in the area, Celebrity Guest and I met Waldo at his house at about 9:30am and headed to the Watauga. We decided to fish the delayed harvest section for a while as we waited for the sun to come out and (hopefully) bring the fish to the surface. As it turns out, the fish never did really get into the swing of taking dry flies, so we (well, those of us with no scruples anyway) were relegated to fishing with nymphs. The stockers were unusually picky and much more of a challenge than normal. Not a bad thing at all, but in the end we did manage to catch a respectable number of fish. At about noon we headed to a wild stream that has quickly become one of my very favorite places on earth to fish. The water was running high and *cold* but relatively clear. I was actually glad that I had let Celebrity Guest borrow my nice breathable waders and that I had chosen to wear my neoprene backups. We fished some absolutely stunning stretches of water. Despite the fact that I’m practically only half the age of my fishing partners, I was the only one to take a spill. I didn’t get wet, but I did manage quite a shin shiner. Once again, dry flies did not produce (although Waldo and Celebrity Guest stuck to their dry fly guns with seasoned determination) but a few fish could be had here and there in the deep pools with small Prince nymphs and a couple of–ahem–sinkers. It’s interesting how different things are at this time of year than they were last year at this time. The water is much higher and colder which has likely delayed the dry fly action by several weeks. Or maybe that has nothing to do with it; who knows. Despite the predictions of rain showers, the weather was great. An almost eery cold front pushed its way into the area right as we were breaking down our gear (at about 3:30pm) and by 4:00pm it was butt cold outside. A good day on the stream and the company was most excellent. Can’t wait to do it again… –Steve

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  Um, I need a ruling on the above: is it White Fish that he’s fucking, or is he a White Fucker who preys on fish?

Jeff preys on white fish.  What he did with them after that is still his little secret <g HTH. — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner…. Shut up  white fish fucker!

Um, I need a ruling on the above: is it White Fish that he’s fucking, or is he a White Fucker who preys on fish? /daytripper (Thanks in advance

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So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that?

Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner….

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Sure, but just in a sarcastic manner….

Shut up  white fish fucker! — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?  

Maybe they cut one leg off of Waldo’s old waders and made him hop from boulder to boulder. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Well hell’s bells, are you going to tell us who it is? It was Vern Ursenbach.

Cool! I always thought Vern was perfectly proportioned to fish those little NC streams. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?   (You wouldn’t believe how many times I had to rewrite that to avoid some sicko double-entendre.   e.g. Do you think Vern would fit in Zimbo’s

waders?) I am sure he could reside in one leg of Zimbo’s waders very comfortably <g — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.    So it must have been the dwarf.

Ya really think Zimbo’s breathables would fit the dwarf?   (You wouldn’t believe how many times I had to rewrite that to avoid some sicko double-entendre.   e.g. Do you think Vern would fit in Zimbo’s waders?) Joe F.

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Charlie Wilson: "Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.   So it must have been the dwarf.

<splork  But I missed the computer!!! <g Dave

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It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right? Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

Oh, you mean Curt Gowdy

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It was the company that I help start (The American Sportsman’s Club" OR it is "The American Sportsman’s Series" that was directed by my good friend, who recently died, Burr Smidt who lives on Manasee Road in Sarasota Florida.  He has done a lot of production works that were outstanding, especially those done with his wife, Renee’ Valenti Smidt. The American Sportsman was a popular Television Series twenty years ago. Guests included Bing Crosby, and many other Hollywood American Sportsmen.  It was THE PREMIER Outdoors Program all others try to top. None have done it to date Warren. George     Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman. WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

GROSS! George was using that tag for a while last year. So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that? Why does it remind me of the old saying "You can hope in one hand, crap in the other and see which one gets filled first" ?.?.?.? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

– (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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    Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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George was using that tag for a while last year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman. WhoTF is the American Sportsman? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

Response:

George was using that tag for a while last year.

So if I designate myself as the "Best fly fisherman to ever live" will you guys start referring to me as that? Why does it remind me of the old saying "You can hope in one hand, crap in the other and see which one gets filled first" ?.?.?.? — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right?

    Hell yeah he’s joking. It was the American Sportsman.

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It was Vern Ursenbach. You are joking right?

You’ll have to ask Mr. Wilson about that… –Steve

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"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.   So it must have been the dwarf.

Somehow I doubt Mrs. Dwarf would let him roam that far. /daytripper (My money’s on wayno…)

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Well hell’s bell’s, are you going to tell us who it is?

Response:

I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well hell’s bell’s, are you going to tell us who it is?

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"Paul Goodwin" wrote I do believe that if he was goint to tell us he would have.

   So it must have been the dwarf.

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Well hell’s bells, are you going to tell us who it is?

It was Vern Ursenbach. –Steve

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It was Vern Ursenbach.

You are joking right?

Response:

<snipped nice TR for space? Glad you had a good time.  Perhaps you can broker a deal for their extra water to help fill up our rivers and resevoirs to keep California in electricity this summer. Was Wayno the celebrity guest? <g — Warren Findley "The vice or virtue of any form of angling lies not in the method but in the man." Author Hugh Falkus

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Question:

tell me where to get them and i will do it thanx Andrew         What should i put on my website.  I have an outdoor Oriented site and was         wondering what you guys like in a website. Please let me know.         Andrew Fulton     Andrew,     Being the presumptious sob that I can be, I’ll speak for the group….     nude flyfishing women     that should about cover it…..     –Wataugan Walt

Response:

If you can tell me where to get them i will do it.  Thanx Andrew         What should i put on my website.  I have an outdoor Oriented site and was         wondering what you guys like in a website. Please let me know.         Andrew Fulton     Andrew,     Being the presumptious sob that I can be, I’ll speak for the group….     nude flyfishing women     that should about cover it…..     –Wataugan Walt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What should i put on my website.  I have an outdoor Oriented site and was wondering what you guys like in a website. Please let me know. Andrew Fulton Andrew, Being the presumptious sob that I can be, I’ll speak for the group…. nude flyfishing women that should about cover it….. –Wataugan Walt

—

Question:

I do a lot of fly fishing from a 14′ aluminum boat and many of the lakes around here do not permit outboard motors. I plan to purchase a Minn Koda electric motor. Need advice on how much thrust to get 30 lbs. or 36. Any advice would be appreciated.

I would definately go with the larger motor.I stick an 30lb. electric motor on my 18 ft. aluminum canoe and wish it had more get up and go.It’s fine for slow cruising but when I spot fish rising at the other end of the lake I’d like to get there a little bit faster.Either way you’re going to enjoy the electric motor experiance…it’s peacefull,wildlife isn’t scared away…I’ve actually had trout jumping so close they’ve hit the side of my canoe…they didn’t hear me coming. — R.C.Thomson Hillside Mira,N.S. Canada

Response:

I do a lot of fly fishing from a 14′ aluminum boat and many of the lakes around here do not permit outboard motors. I plan to purchase a Minn Koda electric motor. Need advice on how much thrust to get 30 lbs. or 36. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Paul Renfree Grande Prairie Alberta Canada

Response:

BIGGER the better Good fishin and God bless Chris Up The Creek Tackle

Response:

I do a lot of fly fishing from a 14′ aluminum boat and many of the lakes around here do not permit outboard motors. I plan to purchase a Minn Koda electric motor. Need advice on how much thrust to get 30 lbs. or 36. Any advice would be appreciated.

I’ve got the same setup and have the bottom-of-the-line Minn Kota and it’s just fine.  Nothing fancy, but it moves the boat across the lake at a good clip, and since it draws less current than the 36 # units it will run for 8-10 hours on a charge.  (Fact is I’ve never managed to drain the battery in a weekend.) -drl — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

Response:

Question:

Hi, any of you guys out there have a design and instructions for a home made trout smoker.

A large home smoker is built most easily out of the carcase of a big appliance (e.g. refrigerator) which the smoke reaches underground through a tube (e.g. metal downspout) from a fire location 10 to 20 ft. distant.  This cools the smoke to the 100 deg. Fahr. desirable for traditional smoking.  You then have the trouble of keeping the fire going for long periods, 24 hours or more. For smaller capacities, electric smokers are sold in N.America (about $80.)  These hold fish sides up to about 16 inches max. For smallest capacities and immediate consumption, Europeans commonly use alcohol-burning smokers, as sold by Trowell, ABU etc.  These are portable thus good for streamside use, but seldom more than 12 inches long. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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I like to use a bong or your standard, hippie-grade water pipe. The only drawback is that you first have to grind up the fish in order to fit it in the bowl. If you have a problem getting it lit, use a little nitro. You should be able to get some from a drag racer.

Response:

If you have a problem getting it lit, use a little nitro. You should be able to get some from a drag racer.

Or go to a hobby shop. They use it for model airplane fuels. Bryce

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Dude… NO LIE, Man….toughest part about smokin trout is keepin it lit!

Response:

I hope someone does as I’m running out of freezer space.

Running out of freezer space, eh?  That’s nice ya lo-life.  What did you pay for your fishing license and what has the stocking program cost us taxpayers and other fisherman in comparison, and what has it done to "your own" fishery?  I guess there might be a *slight* chance that keeping so many trout makes sense (like if the bait-fishermen were going to get them all anyways, or if the summer heat will kill these put-and-take fish that don’t belong there anyways . Let me guess, your from "PA"??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks            A.P.

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I read an article once about using a cardboard box to make a makeshift smoker.  You took the bottom out and stuck sticks through the side to make a rack for the fish.  You had to be careful the whole thing didn’t go up in smoke.– Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GO TO http://www.ccnet.com/~emh FOR FLY FISHING BOOK AUCTION – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like to use a bong or your standard, hippie-grade water pipe. The only drawback is that you first have to grind up the fish in order to fit it in the bowl. If you have a problem getting it lit, use a little nitro. You should be able to get some from a drag racer.

Response:

yeah, we built the pit-style smoker in the Boy Scout’s handbook one summer on a 4 week long camping trip…..got all the alder twigs for the fish, made a "hinged" door on our box, lined the pit with alder leaves, cut, split and fire dried alder and apple for making our own chips, the whole bit. I’m sure with a few modifications, it would have done a better job of smoking vs. cooking the fish…..but it did work pretty well.  one old feller suggested we dig an "outlet hole" at an angle down towards our pit so some of th esmoke could vent off- he said just slide a cover over it as th efire cooled down….awwh, what did he know any way….=8^) the earlier comment by the gentleman using the large appliance and his statement about the fire being farther away and the smoke being "piped over" to attain a lower heat is right on the button…don’t know if it was mentioned, but it IS IMPERATIVE THAT ALL THE FREON IS REMOVED FROM THE FRIDGE FIRST…..it can have fatal side effects.

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–snip– to attain a lower heat is right on the button…don’t know if it was mentioned, but it IS IMPERATIVE THAT ALL THE FREON IS REMOVED FROM THE FRIDGE FIRST…..it can have fatal side effects.

Actually, another important thing to remember, and it may not be important at smoking temperatures, is that the corrosion resistant coating they use on the metal shelves in fridges breaks down at elevated temperatures.  I believe it can lace the food with dangerous chemicals. FYI dunc — Please delete the "_remove" | "Virtue is more to be feared than from the username to reply. |  vice, because its excesses are not                             |  subject to the regulation of Thank you                   |  conscience." — Adam Smith

Response:

–snip– to attain a lower heat is right on the button…don’t know if it was mentioned, but it IS IMPERATIVE THAT ALL THE FREON IS REMOVED FROM THE FRIDGE FIRST…..it can have fatal side effects. Actually, another important thing to remember, and it may not be important at smoking temperatures, is that the corrosion resistant coating they use on the metal shelves in fridges breaks down at elevated temperatures.  I believe it can lace the food with dangerous chemicals. FYI

My grandmother had THREE old ‘fridges next to her machine shed that she used as smokers for 25-30 years.  I don’t think she did anything but toss an electric element and some chips into a pan on the bottom rack; she certainly didn’t drain out the freon, or even remove the motors.  Of course she died of cancer at 90, so it might have caught up with her eventually.  The fish was pretty good though… -drl — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University       Department of History   "Eastward I go by force, but Westward I go free!"  -H. D. Thoreau

Response:

I hope someone does as I’m running out of freezer space. Running out of freezer space, eh?  That’s nice ya lo-life.  What did you pay for your fishing license and what has the stocking program cost us taxpayers and other fisherman in comparison, and what has it done to "your own" fishery?  I guess there might be a *slight* chance that keeping so many trout makes sense (like if the bait-fishermen were going to get them all anyways, or if the summer heat will kill these put-and-take fish that don’t belong there anyways . Let me guess, your from "PA"???

Oh, yeah. There is no chance that he could have put beef or chicken in his freezer. None whatsoever! Bryce

Response:

Hi, any of you guys out there have a design and instructions for a home made trout smoker. I hope someone does as I’m running out of freezer space. Thanks             A.P.

Response:

Question:

: I thought he was referring to the Hillary Clinton Lesbian Streamer Dry Fly : Series which goes both ways.  You don’t *really* think he believes that the : wife of the president of the USofA is a fuzzbumping rugmuncher, do ya ? A fuzzbumping rugmuncher?  Is that in current usage in your neck of the woods?  Could you draw a diagram, Tim, please?  I am not quite sure, I quite understand. . . .   (really). I would like to pass this one on to some gay and lesbian friends  :-). Burnaby, BC

Response:

I thought he was referring to the Hillary Clinton Lesbian Streamer Dry Fly Series which goes both ways.  You don’t *really* think he believes that the wife of the president of the USofA is a fuzzbumping rugmuncher, do ya ? TimW T-Bone, man, you crack me up. Your posts are as entertaining as it gets. It makes wading through all the flames to get at useful FF info. all worth while. Keep it up! Silent Fan, JD.

With his general age (oldest living flyfisherperson), condition (must have high bp and or suffering from metabolic imbalance judging from posts) and temperament (terminal irascibility, newly recognized condition, see last New England Medical Journal) T-Bone needs all the encouragement he can get just to think about getting it up, much less keeping it up. Note:  According to the FDA eating hatchery fish may have deletorious effects on your health.  Read the list of chemicals used in hatcheries to prevent the spread of disease etc.  How many has Tim eaten? Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW T-Bone, man, you crack me up. Your posts are as entertaining as it gets. It makes wading through all the flames to get at useful FF info. all worth while. Keep it up! Silent Fan, JD. With his general age (oldest living flyfisherperson), condition (must have high bp and or suffering from metabolic imbalance judging from posts) and temperament (terminal irascibility, newly recognized condition, see last New England Medical Journal) T-Bone needs all the encouragement he can get just to think about getting it up, much less keeping it up. Note:  According to the FDA eating hatchery fish may have deletorious effects on your health.  Read the list of chemicals used in hatcheries to prevent the spread of disease etc.  How many has Tim eaten? Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

FRANKLY T-BONE; I’m sorry I missed that new fly tying contest but appreciate the fact you accepted my winning entry called, "The Hatchery Pellet Fly".  ;)  Dressed with XINK, it settles The Hatchery Pellet at the proper rate and the diseased trout that are on all those hallucinating drugs, (the same ones McGuane seems to be on) to prevent the spread of ‘Hallucinating’ – is more apt to catch suckers, rather than trout.  (the same as a McGuane Sucker)  Those we throw over the hatchery fence . . . if I remember right. Hang tough T-bone.  Everyone knows that the best policy for hatchery reared trout is a gut-em & eat-um program anyhow.  EVERYONE knows that, except the McGuanes who know nothing of value.  Besides, with trout going for $4 dollars a pound, look at all the grocery bills one can save killing the trash fish the State Raises?  I think this is why your staff gave me the winning prize for the most productive fly ever conceived for catching Hatchery Trout.  I told you T-bone, you had to tie that damned thing on behind one of those service barns . . . didn’t I? Does this mean we should write the book, "Matching the Pellets? unsilent fan, George/Mr. Gink

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<snip I must apologise to the rest of the world that there are others in this country that do not have manners, who are ill-bred, and totally discourteous.  I mean this most sincerely.  Therefore, everyone; please excuse me for I will not stoop to this individual’s level.  It appears

<snip George Gehrke/American Sportsman

George, you recently called Hilary Clinton, who is, last I recall, a private citizen, a lesbian, with the main purpose of the claim being to smear her.  This seems to this pilgrim to be discourteous.  I suggest you stick to reading for a while, until you learn some manners and civility.   Regardless of how we feel about the topic, it ain’t about fly fishing. There are a variety of newsgroups that are devoted to this type of debate.  Polite behavior in the clan would dictate that you confine your discussions on these topics to those newsgroups.  If you are as polite and courteous as you assert yourself to be, you will do so in the future.   I suggest that you try alt.politics.clinton, where you will find some kindred souls, as well as some flaming liberals that you can sharpen your teeth on.

Response:

I thought he was referring to the Hillary Clinton Lesbian Streamer Dry Fly Series which goes both ways.  You don’t *really* think he believes that the wife of the president of the USofA is a fuzzbumping rugmuncher, do ya ? TimW

T-Bone, man, you crack me up. Your posts are as entertaining as it gets. It makes wading through all the flames to get at useful FF info. all worth while. Keep it up! Silent Fan, JD.

Response:

George, you recently called Hilary Clinton, who is, last I recall, a private citizen, a lesbian, with the main purpose of the claim being to smear her.  This seems to this pilgrim to be discourteous.  I suggest you stick to reading for a while, until you learn some manners and civility. Regardless of how we feel about the topic, it ain’t about fly fishing.[rip]

I thought he was referring to the Hillary Clinton Lesbian Streamer Dry Fly Series which goes both ways.  You don’t *really* think he believes that the wife of the president of the USofA is a fuzzbumping rugmuncher, do ya ? TimW

Response:

No Sandy — just honest and accurate.

Response:

We all ought to thank George Gehrke for providing some fun. (thanks George!). Seems like a lot of people where surprised to realize what a jerhke George is. (right wing, opinionated, arrogant, mean-spirited, pea-brained, etc). Well, I met George at an FFF conclave about 10 years ago, when I was trying to sell boats. George was (then): a) old b) arrogant, opinionated, pompous, greedy, stupid, pea-brained (then and now) So, by mentioning this observation, am I mean-spirited too? —

No.  I think it makes you a liar and an exaggeration to the definition of what "A Sportsman" is all about.  There are ladies and gentlemen in this world . . . and then there are the sandy’s. I must apologise to the rest of the world that there are others in this country that do not have manners, who are ill-bred, and totally discourteous.  I mean this most sincerely.  Therefore, everyone; please excuse me for I will not stoop to this individual’s level.  It appears Sandy may have been an abused child and needs to strike out at anything that represents ‘a father figure’. It is seldom that I’m disappointed with others who make claim to being in the faturnity called, "Fly Fishermen".  Overall, they gracious, kind and loving people. AS for the Sandys in this world?  At least I know, I’m a winner. George Gehrke/American Sportsman

Response:

We all ought to thank George Gehrke for providing some fun. (thanks George!). Seems like a lot of people where surprised to realize what a jerhke George is. (right wing, opinionated, arrogant, mean-spirited, pea-brained, etc). Well, I met George at an FFF conclave about 10 years ago, when I was trying to sell boats. George was (then): a) old b) arrogant, opinionated, pompous, greedy, stupid, pea-brained (then and now) So, by mentioning this observation, am I mean-spirited too?   —

Response:

Question:

Dams and pondliners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Right. And when (not if) those liners fail: 100 years, 500 years, even 2000 years if wer’e really lucky, the entire area becomes a superfund site.  Note that the acid leaches lots of heavy metals, highly toxic, *other* than gold, which poison the ground and the water supply. – - – the cyanide is not the major problem!    it’s the leached metals – - – which Jim won’t discuss I suppose Jim is gonna claim that the damn $1.83 per acre will pay for the impossible clean-up, like it has in Colarado? Jim, exactly how would you clean up those Colorado acid leach sites ??? – - –   Funny thing these ‘white people’: They see a mountain, all they want to do is blow it into a pile of acid leaching crap (note the acid leached a lot of *really* poisonous heavy metals). For a few pounds of shiny yellow metal, which they’ve already got more of in Fort Knox than they can do anything productive or pretty with.   Then these ‘white people’ take the money, declare the company bankrupt, and skip town… all the time whining about how we are interfering with ‘their west’.   If this is an excuse to make them rich at taxpayer expense, lets just bring back welfare and GIVE them the damn money *not* to totally fuck up the place. Let ‘em sit at home and watch TV. I’ve seen enough hard rock mining shit to care a lot about this… I’m not sorry about the language.

Response:

Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Seadog – Still lost at Sea

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.

Yes, but this is the first ever "gold" mining venture, in which gold is the primary objective.  Of course they have removed gold from copper operations, but they were not "gold" mining.    Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn This statement is also true.  Mines that have used the heap-leach method

use impoundment dams that collect the waste cyanide.  The dams are lined with polyurethane liners that are as thick as a nickel.  In addition, the ore piles are put on top of polyurethane sheets which are supposed to keep the cyanide out of groundwater.  Every major Montana mine; and large mining companies are the primary users of cyanide-leaching has been cited for some type of water quality violation, most of which are related to cyanide leakage.  The liners are often the reason for the leak; holes, tears, seam leakage.  Rain storms have been a cause also, as they have filled up waste reservoirs and caused them to overflow.  If cyanide gets into groundwater, it gets into streams.     A large enough cyanide spill, or consistent leakage can persist for a long time in streams and rivers.  Usually, by the time groundwater leakage of cyanide is detected by the EPA or the Montana Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), because mining companies are not likely to report, or even know about many of these leaks, they have already done their damage.  Aquatic life is much more sensitive to cyanide in lesser amounts than non aquatic life.   Shawn, keep in mind that the mining industry in Montana may be different from the industry in other states.  Our water quality laws are much more lenient than many places, thus, it is important to pass I-122.  Our past mining history shows that.  If you have any questions about the record regarding cyanide leakage, just contact the Montana Environmental Information Center, who’s address is in my original letter.  Or better yet, come to Montana sometime and see the destruction left in the place where a mountain was before, and fish the rivers that once had fish!                            Craig

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Seadog – Still lost at Sea

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has

<snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

            BIG INDUSTRY GOLD MINE WILL RUIN MONTANA RIVER   The Blackfoot River, which has flowed clean and cold in Montana from its headwaters near the continental divide for thousands of years is now being threatened by a huge open-pit cyanide heap-leach mine.  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp. and Canyon Resources Inc. – the Seven-Up Pete Joint Venture, wants to mine the river’s headwaters for gold.  The mine site, including 172 million pounds of cyanide, which will be poured over 980 million tons of removed ore from the mountain will sit just 1/4 mile from the Blackfoot River.  (The Blackfoot River, by the way was recently made famous by Norman Maclean in his novel "A River Runs Through It".)   To get at the gold, buried 1,200 feet underground in trace amounts, the mining company will have to dismantle two pine-covered buttes, and for each ton of ore, the miners will recover 0.02 ounces of gold.  The remaining pit, more than a mile across and deep enough to hide the Washington Monument will collect groundwater which will be contaminated with heavy metals, and will have to be pumped out at the rate of 15.8 million gallons a day.   In Butte Montana, the Berkely Pit copper mine, which is no longer in operation has a similar sized hole.  The pit is filling up with water, and officials have no way to get rid of the Carcinogen’s, toxins or metals in it, which have already leaked into the water table of the town of Butte.  The mines copper smelter, the Anaconda Smelter has dumped tons of waste sediment into the Clark Fork River which has already caused several fish-kills, and water quality problems in my town, Missoula MT.   The Blackfoot River feeds into the Clark Fork to the East, before it flows into Missoula, which means that a spill or leak of cyanide or heavy metals into the Blackfoot, would also terminally harm the Clark Fork. Both rivers are currently used regularly for rafting, kayaking, fly fishing and other recreations.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has had accidents at virtually all its mines.  It has been cited and fined frequently for toxic discharges into nearby waters.  The company has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.  Even in dilute solutions, cyanide kills fish and other life forms.  A leak of this chemical poison into the Blackfoot could finish the river for decades.   In November, the people of Montana will be voting for or against Initiative 122, "The Clean Water Initiative".  This initiative demands higher standards for removal of carcinogens and toxins before being discharged into state waters.  The current law, one of the most lax water quality laws in the country, allows mine discharges to be diluted after release into state waters, where it is measured down stream after a "mixing zone".  The "mixing zone" technique uses the river to dilute waste rather than using expensive machinery to filter it out. The current "easy to mine cheaply" water law is one of the reasons so many mining corporations seek Montana sites over mine sites in other states.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Co. has spent over 1 million dollars on TV and radio adds in recent months, which Missoula and other communities across the state have been bombarded with.  The adds claim that state water laws are sufficient, which they clearly are not, and that stricter laws for removing higher levels of poisons before discharge from mines will put many mines out of business and hurt the states economy. The so-called "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws" advertisements that the mining industry has created have been cited as being "illegal" by the fair-election watchdog group, "Common Cause".   "Using a misleading name, "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws," to run a million-dollar media blitz, the Industry is succeeding in changing citizen beliefs, and they’re breaking the law to do it."  (Hal Harper, Democratic state representative from Helena, MT.)  Unfortunately, many people in the state have been scared by these ads, and swayed into believing that I-122 will hurt the economy and that it unfairly targets the mining industry.  The fact is that mining state-wide, accounts for less than one percent of the workforce, and mining has a long history of causing post mining recessions that hurt the economy.     On top of the adds, the mining industry has donated computers to the local high school, X-ray machines to the local clinic and it helped to insulate the local senior citizens facility in an attempt to win support for the upcoming vote against the Clean Water Initiative.  Proponents of I-122 believe that if a mine can not find a way to clean up their mess before they release water into the river, they should not be mining in the first place.     Supporters of I-122 have raised only around 300 thousand dollars toward the fight to make higher water quality standards law, so we need as much support as possible.  The Clark Fork-Pend Oreille Coalition recommends writing or contacting the following people to voice your opinion or concerns:  Write to Montana governor Marc Racicot, who currently favors mining and opposes I-122.                              Gov. Marc Racicot                          Capitol Station                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-3111 The Phelps Dodge Mine Co. has applied to the Montana Department of Environmental Quality  (DEQ) for a permit to build this mine.  Write Sandi Olsen at the DEQ.  Ask her to put you on the mailing list for public scoping on the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that the DEQ will prepare once it deems Phelps Dodge’s application complete.  The findings are what determine whether the state approves or denies this permit.                          Sandi Olsen                          Montana DEQ                          P.O. Box 200901                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-4988   Write a letter to your local newspaper.  Explain that the Blackfoot is too precious to trade for the short-term and questionable benefits from mining.  Remember; this is not just a Montana problem.  We all need to speak out against giant corporations that value their own interests of profit and gain over people and environment!  For more information and updates on this issue, please contact the following:                           Clark Fork- pend Oreille Coalition                       P.O. Box 7593                                                     Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)542-0539                       Montana Council of Trout Unlimited                       P.O Box 7186                       Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)543-0054                       Montana Environmental Information Center                       P.O. Box 1184                       Helena, MT 59624                       (406)443-2520    I am a University of Montana student and am not affiliated with any of the above organizations.  I am just attempting to help get the word out that what may happen if I-122 loses, is the destruction of a river and an eco-system that can not be replaced for decades.   Much of the above information came from articles from the San Francisco Examiner, The Missoulian, the Great Falls Tribune, the Clark Fork-pend Oreille Coalition and my own research and discussions with other sources.                   Craig Murphy

Response:

Question:

[Item 1] Then there are those who drive bigger boats that think because their boat is bigger, they have the right to direct your boat.

[Item 2] Then there are those with smaller boats (canoes in my case) that are too afraid that you’ll swamp them or get angry that the wake you leave will ruin their weekend.

[Item 3] And those boats smaller than I:  Unless there is a no wake zone – you take your chances.

I think I must be a little confused by what you’ve written — do you see no contradiction between your complaint in item 1 and your attitude in item 3, which essentially dictates what boats smaller than yours are allowed to do? And, are you really saying in items 2 & 3 that you have no compunctions about swamping canoes simply because they are smaller than your boat?  And your justification is that you feel great hardship is imposed upon you by the cost of maintaining your larger boat?  (Sorry, I inadvertantly deleted that part of your post.) Do you see no contradiction here?

Response:

I don’t know or care what your problem is but you just made it on my kill list. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Is boating worth it? AT&T Newsgroups: rec.boats References: snip I used to live on a little pond where a guy put a big boat with the name Suck My Wake painted in huge letters on the side. You’d like him,                                           jc Funny, I named my sailboat "Blow Me". Garry Heon First Stepp My Opinions….Lucent’s Network. Garry,  I appreciate your above response.  It appears that a number of smart-ass lawyers replied  to my supposed lack of concern regarding my wake. Admiralty Lawyer  W.Smith referred to me as an ‘ASSHOLE’ in his email msg.  Just remember:  LAWYER + BOAT = FLOATING SHIT  Regards.  D.G.

D. George Jensen San Diego, CA, USA

Response:

asshole I’d kick your fucking ass and piss on your face Cause its really obvious that’s the only type of communication you understand !!! your a dam dickwad mother fucker .. See asshole I don’t need no fucking attorney to take care of your sorry peace of shit Not only do I own a 42 foot Ketch that I built in my own back yard "10 years in the making". But  I also own a 12 foot aluminum Fishing boat . I happen to like catfish !!! Last year I was swamped by a 32 foot power boat in a 300 foot wide channel The mother fucker had the odasidy to fly the third digit as he passed me in the channel . well that’s the last time that asshole flew that finger!!!!! I BROKE IT Yea see there is only two ways you can go on a river he might have got away with it if we where on the big bad ocean but we weren’t ,, I caught up with the asshole at restaurant/bar a few miles up stream Needless to say I spent 30 days in county for fucking this asshole up but it was worth it… I dint like watching my tackle box float down stream … I’ve been a framer half my fucking life I know how to swing a hammer might knock some fucking courtesy into it   I walk the walk,  I talk the talk . and  Ill kick your fucking ass if I ever see  you ASSHOLE  if ya wana meet dickwad  "ANYWARE ANY TIME ASSHOLE"   Email me – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The first thing you learn when boating is that others like to tell you how to drive it. If you have female passengers, they will complain that you are not driving in a manner considerate to their physical attributes. Then there are those who drive bigger boats that think because their boat is bigger, they have the right to direct your boat. Then there are those with smaller boats (canoes in my case) that are too afraid that you’ll swamp them or get angry that the wake you leave will ruin their weekend. My reply to complaining females is that they should strap their parts down before getting on board.  To those who like to give orders from other boats or shore: EAT MY WAKE. And those boats smaller than I:  Unless there is a no wake zone – you take your chances. It’s bad enough fixing the boat to keep it running.  But this extra crap: tell it to someone who cares.

Response:

  It appears that a number of smart-ass lawyers replied   to my supposed lack of concern regarding my wake. Admiralty Lawyer   W.Smith referred to me as an ‘ASSHOLE’ in his email msg.

Oh Gee, Dave, I’m sorry.  I thought ASSHOLE was the name of your boat.   Hey Dave, the sooner you end up in federal prison, the better off the boating world will be. —         Wm. G. Smith         Admiralty Lawyer         P.O. Box 3017         Framingham, Mass. 01705         (508)877-3119 Practicing in Admiralty, Environmental and Coastal Land Use Planning Visit my web page at http://www.netcom.com/~w.smith/admiralty.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Re: Is boating worth it? AT&T Newsgroups: rec.boats References: snip I used to live on a little pond where a guy put a big boat with the name Suck My Wake painted in huge letters on the side. You’d like him,                                               jc Funny, I named my sailboat "Blow Me". Garry Heon First Stepp My Opinions….Lucent’s Network.

Garry,   I appreciate your above response.   It appears that a number of smart-ass lawyers replied   to my supposed lack of concern regarding my wake. Admiralty Lawyer   W.Smith referred to me as an ‘ASSHOLE’ in his email msg.   Just remember:  LAWYER + BOAT = FLOATING SHIT   Regards.   D.G.

Response:

I’m just very glad I don’t boat WITH you or NEAR you.

Response:

snip I used to live on a little pond where a guy put a big boat with the name Suck My Wake painted in huge letters on the side. You’d like him,                                            jc

Funny, I named my sailboat "Blow Me". Garry Heon First Stepp My Opinions….Lucent’s Network.

Response:

And those boats smaller than I:  Unless there is a no wake zone – you take your chances.

 Regardless of a no wake zone or not, I would hope you that if you’re close enough to swamp a smaller craft with your wake that you would slow down. If not then you take your own chances, because if there are witnesses you could face criminal or civil prosecution. The usual disclaimers apply.

Response:

The first thing you learn when boating is that others like to tell you how to drive it. If you have female passengers, they will complain that you are not driving in a manner considerate to their physical attributes. Then there are those who drive bigger boats that think because their boat is bigger, they have the right to direct your boat. Then there are those with smaller boats (canoes in my case) that are too afraid that you’ll swamp them or get angry that the wake you leave will ruin their weekend. My reply to complaining females is that they should strap their parts down before getting on board.  To those who like to give orders from other boats or shore: EAT MY WAKE. And those boats smaller than I:  Unless there is a no wake zone – you take your chances. It’s bad enough fixing the boat to keep it running.  But this extra crap: tell it to someone who cares.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The first thing you learn when boating is that others like to tell you how to drive it. If you have female passengers, they will complain that you are not driving in a manner considerate to their physical attributes. Then there are those who drive bigger boats that think because their boat is bigger, they have the right to direct your boat. Then there are those with smaller boats (canoes in my case) that are too afraid that you’ll swamp them or get angry that the wake you leave will ruin their weekend. My reply to complaining females is that they should strap their parts down before getting on board.  To those who like to give orders from other boats or shore: EAT MY WAKE. And those boats smaller than I:  Unless there is a no wake zone – you take your chances. It’s bad enough fixing the boat to keep it running.  But this extra crap: tell it to someone who cares.

Please go to school. Boating is great fun but you must obey the rules. As far as your wake goes, you are legally and financially responsible for any damages caused by your wake, anywhere, anytime. —            /       Michael W. Madden          / |      215 898-0939        _/  |        /   |      I’d rather be sailing!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The first thing you learn when boating is that others like to tell you how to drive it. If you have female passengers, they will complain that you are not driving in a manner considerate to their physical attributes. Then there are those who drive bigger boats that think because their boat is bigger, they have the right to direct your boat. Then there are those with smaller boats (canoes in my case) that are too afraid that you’ll swamp them or get angry that the wake you leave will ruin their weekend. My reply to complaining females is that they should strap their parts down before getting on board.  To those who like to give orders from other boats or shore: EAT MY WAKE. And those boats smaller than I:  Unless there is a no wake zone – you take your chances. It’s bad enough fixing the boat to keep it running.  But this extra crap: tell it to someone who cares.

I used to live on a little pond where a guy put a big boat with the name Suck My Wake painted in huge letters on the side. You’d like him, he’d pretty much swamp anyone who messed with him on this 1 X .5 mile stretch of water. He’s up in N.Berwick Maine if you feel like tracking him down and starting a club or something….                                                 jc

Response:

The first thing you learn when boating is that others like to tell you how to drive it.

Yeah, who needs to hear all that crap about how you should operate your boat from the International Maritime Organization, the Coast Guard or the State Boating Law Administrator!  Screw ‘em. Then there are those who drive bigger boats that think because their boat is bigger, they have the right to direct your boat.

They may or may not, depending on the circumstances prevailing at the time, have a right to expect you’ll get out of their way.  Under other circumstances, you have a right to expect that they will get out of your way.  If they don’t, you have a positive duty under the law to take prompt, efficient actions to avoid a collision. Then there are those with smaller boats (canoes in my case) that are too afraid that you’ll swamp them or get angry that the wake you leave will ruin their weekend.

It may do worse than that; it may injure or kill them. To those who like to give orders from other boats or shore: EAT MY WAKE.

Another writer has already said this, but it bears repeating: You are personally liable for all damage done by your wake at all times.  Rule 6 of both the Inland and International Rules of the Road absolutely require all mariners to operate at a safe speed at all times.  Whether or not your speed was safe will be determined by whether or not your wake does any damage or by whether you could have avoided doing any kind of damage by proceeding at a slower speed. And those boats smaller than I:  Unless there is a no wake zone – you take your chances.

If you really do operate in this manner, it constitutes "Grossly Negligent Operation" and is a Federal CRIME, punishable by a fine of up to $5,000 and up to a year in prison or both.  Personally, I wish the Coast Guard would forget about drugs for a while and more vigorously enforce and prosecute under this statute.  People like you belong in jail. It’s bad enough fixing the boat to keep it running.  But this extra crap: tell it to someone who cares.

There is a legal term to describe someone like you:  ASSHOLE. —         Wm. G. Smith         Admiralty Lawyer         P.O. Box 3017         Framingham, Mass. 01705         (508)877-3119 Practicing in Admiralty, Environmental and Coastal Land Use Planning Visit my web page at http://www.netcom.com/~w.smith/admiralty.html

Response:

Question:

You can fish the streams in the park productively all Summer long, but they do get low and the fish get squirrely.  Heating is not so much a problem as low water.  Try the upper Hughes, the Hazel (if it’s open this year) and the upper Conway.  Learn to crawl on your belly, and hide behind the boulders.  I know nothing about Naked Creek.  As a sidelight, there are a bunch of decent limestones in the general area as well.  Buffalo Creek is one of the better ones.  Call Harry Murray in Edinsburg, VA.  He has a pharmacy/ fly shop.  Nobody is better versed on these streams than he.  I don’t have his number.  Call dir assist. and get the number for Murray’s fly shop in Edinsburg.

Response:

We fish the lower Shenandoah year round for Rainbow and Brown trout. We take good size trout from about 12 streams with regular success. The trophy trout areas are good but the smaller spring fed streams hold fish year round and have less fishing pressure. In addition to Murrays, I would recommend the Mossy Creek Flyshop in Bridgewater to get info on Smithy Creek, Mossy as well as the Bull Pasture. I would contact the Orvis store in Roanoke to get the flies and hatch info on Lower Jackson, Back Creek, Upper Jackson, Tye, South, Irish, Pedlar and Upper Maury. Ron Bennett Flyfishing Virginia L.L.C. (804) 467-6668

Response:

How late can one fish in the Shanendoa trout streams productively? I’m told they get to warm by "summer." I want to fish Naked Creek in mid Jun e.

Response: