Question:

Further, the waters recounted in the TR?article are not unique to that area, there is fishing like that all over this country.

Clark, just watched a FF program on OLN (tv station) in New Zealand with a kiwi guide called Dick Frasier. Have you heard of his lodge? Said it was 3 hours north of Queenstown. It look sort of rain foresty, so I figure it was near the west coast. Some amazing browns and bows. I was serendipitously reading your post at the same time. Tell ya, I gotta get back there and soon before the missus tell me it is time to   start to replicate ourselves (time to turn off those old Hawkwind records) …. Best, Gary PS Do you know your stuff is on Morpheus, the MP3 sharing program?

Response:

As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible.

Well, that IS interesting in light of; "Well as I am fully booked this season I doubt it’s really an issue." I am pleased to announce that by this logic I am fully booked for the season as an Italian-English translator, an AK-47 pilot, a brain surgeon, and a double naught spy. Wolfgang wanna buy some red-hots?

Response:

As an employee of a lodge, I am no longer in business. I am an employee. Sorry that’s so hard for you to follow. I can quite honestly state to anyone here who wishes to retain me as a guide that I cannot take the booking. Further, if anyone here wishes to book at Poronui they should do so through appropriate channels, but I would recommend that they should be looking, at peak times, a good deal of time away as the lodge space is at a premium. If they cannot get in there then there are a number of great lodges happy to look after them. My recounting of fishing in the area was only because I thought it was of interest. As I have stated previously I am happy to provide information to anyone coming to areas I know who do not use a guide or lodge. Further I would add, Poronui is without doubt the leading lodge in New Zealand, many say, the world. Space is at a premium, it is difficult to get space there for any angler. They certainly do not need me to run infomercials for them and I do not. If you wish to book there you would not do so through me. My bookings with them, as an employee are done and I am solidly booked until the end of the season. These things aren’t up for debate, but your desire to do so makes me question your motives.. do you fish or just try to piss people off who do? Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Well, that IS interesting in light of; "Well as I am fully booked this season I doubt it’s really an issue." I am pleased to announce that by this logic I am fully booked for the season as an Italian-English translator, an AK-47 pilot, a brain surgeon, and a double naught spy. Wolfgang wanna buy some red-hots?

Response:

As an employee of a lodge, I am no longer in business. I am an employee. Sorry that’s so hard for you to follow.

That makes complete sense. At first, I actually thought you were going to quit fishing to resurrect your professional singing career. Fishing seems like the way to go if you ask me. –Steve

Response:

The singing career is going great, I just missed fishing. I am fortunate that I can record my new album in winter, perform at some festivals, maybe even do a small tour during the winter months. If my time away from fishing told me anything it was how much I enjoyed helping others enjoy their ‘trip of a lifetime". There is no greater joy for me. To be paid for it is a bonus. Since I was small I have been consumed by catching trout. I still am, but having experienced near all of it’s thrills in this country my best way to enjoy the passion is to help others experience those things as well. Some here try to bring me down for that passion, I make no apology for it. That said, I have similar passion for my music, Country music, no matter how much I love it, and no matter how much recognition I have got for it just doesn’t pay the bills.  I don’t know you Steve, but I am assuming your post was an attempt at a dig at my singing career. If not, I got you wrong. I approach my singing career pretty simply. I do it for those who enjoy it. Those who don’t aren’t in the picture. I bear you no ill and hope all your fishing adventures are good ones. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As an employee of a lodge, I am no longer in business. I am an employee. Sorry that’s so hard for you to follow. That makes complete sense. At first, I actually thought you were going to quit fishing to resurrect your professional singing career. Fishing seems like the way to go if you ask me. –Steve

Response:

As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Well, that IS interesting in light of; "Well as I am fully booked this season I doubt it’s really an issue."

I thought that was interesting too. <g — Charlie…

Response:

. Since I was small I have been consumed by catching trout. Some here try to bring me down for that passion, I make no apology for it.

        i have tried to follow your posting pattern, and those posts that you must be referring to, above; i can find no evidence that would support your conclusion.         i just think you walked into a barroom brawl and made a hasty decision concerning who you punch first. wayno

Response:

Nonetheless, the way I see it, and that is what truly matters to me; if Mike’s ISP had cut him off, then they would have believe they had seen wrong doing on his part–according to their policies, if Mike decides to leave ROFF and return again, a million times, for whatever the reasons, that is his prerogative.

Certainly he does, but just as a few get all worked up over Ginkles, and some just a little miffed, the same applies to Mike and his constant, overly-dramatic Sarah Bernhardt exits and returns, and on more than one NG/board – he’s pulled this same crap on several of them.  It tends to be a pattern for Mike, and as far as I’m concerned, just as he has the prerogative to do that, others have the prerogative to call his tantrums as they see them.  IOW, basically, if he’s going to make his leaving a topic, he should expect it.  Why, assuming completely pure motives, should he always feel the need to make "an exit" and not simply quit reading, posting, of whatever, for such time?  If he didn’t do it for the attention, craving and wanting the "oh, no, please don’t leave!" nonsense, he wouldn’t do it. Mike and all you Euros, enjoy your ‘clave!

Absolutely!  And the non-Europeans who may attend, as well. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Op

Response:

About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? Clark

About the lying and duping….  can you show me one instance of it?

Response:

About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it?

If an informercial is SPAM, you just posted the instance. — Charlie…

Response:

As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? If an informercial is SPAM, you just posted the instance. — Charlie…

Response:

Further, the waters recounted in the TR?article are not unique to that area, there is fishing like that all over this country. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I no longer have a guiding business that would be inpossible. Clark About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? If an informercial is SPAM, you just posted the instance. — Charlie…

Response:

About to be posted in about 5 minutes. About the spamming.. can you show me one instance of it? Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mike didn’t lose his ISP, he closed his accvount. The ISP posted here saying they weren’t shutting him down. You have been duped by Connor’s lies and please for sympathy. Clark Well Mr.  I don

Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

Response:

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

Response:

I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

Response:

I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

Response:

1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

Response:

Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Question:

<SNIP IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about.

<SNIP Vern, you were a little over-zealous in your support of this action, and I did warn you that it might get ugly, and to be perhaps a little more circumspect. I am not censuring you in any way, you did what you believed was right, and in a good cause.  You stood up for something you believed in, and you have every right to be proud of it.  Do not let anybody else try to persuade you otherwise.  ROFF is made up of a lot of people, the vast majority are perfectly well aware that what was done was the correct thing to do, irrespective of any hair-splitting debates which may occur as an aftermath. I assume the fact that some of your letters are being touted as "hate-mail" etc is unsettling you. Don’t worry about it, there is nothing in those letters which could upset anybody at all with any sense. Simply the request to the sponsors to withdraw their support. You should see my mail !  I did not realise there were so many dangerous nutcases supporting the killing of Indians, I even got mail from some people claiming to be Indians, saying they supported old Rupe.  They really must be nuts. It will take more than something of this nature to "rip ROFF apart".  Try to calm down a bit.  Go fishing ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

I look at it a little different.  Yes, I was one of the more loud voices. However, I don’t believe anyone wanted FAOL to disappear.  I know I didn’t. Additionally, they don’t have to.  No one’s asking for that.  FAOL is a good web-site that has a lot of good information on it.  We only wanted the last article from Rupe removed.  That’s all.  It was a moral issue.  We took action regarding a possible resolution.  The longer FAOL resisted the more public anger grew.  That’s just normal. Now that the life of FAOL is in question, it’s like dancing on a dying friend.  I don’t see any glory or pride in this.  Furthermore, it’s not necessary.  With the new information about the possible demise of FAOL, the continued debate that has no resolution becomes meaningless.  If a resolution was possible, that would be different because the debate would have purpose.  There is no resolution and there will never be a resolution to the continued treads.  I then ask, why do the threads continuing?  What does everyone want from continuing the debate? Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please. I must say I’m a little bit disappointed in you on this one Vern.  In the first place, the Rupe thing is hardly ripping us apart.  There have been many threads on ROFF which generated a lot more fireworks than this one.  In fact, I’ve found the debate on this one to be remarkably civilized.  This is nothing compared to what goes on in the ubiquitous C&R vs C&K threads.  Hell, even a debate about the definition of ‘meniscus’ can get uglier than this. Secondly, if I’m not mistaken, yours was one of the first and loudest voices calling for action against FAOL.  Mind you, I don’t disapprove of your action; I quite agree that something needed to be done and heartily commend you for taking a lead in informing the sponsors of what was happening.  But it seems to me at this late date that for you to call an end to the whole process, when you were so instrumental in initiating it is a bit disingenuous, especially in light of the fact that Mike has been taking the vast majority of the heat. Again, I don’t have a problem with the action you took, but I am surprised at how little any of the critics had to say to you directly about it.  Now it looks as though you’re trying to duck out while everyone is still focused on Mike’s role and you have escaped unscathed. In short, you were instrumental in stirring up this hornets’ nest, it doesn’t look good for you to be too critical of those who pay attention to the hornets.

Response:

Hi Guys, I have read with interest many of the posts regarding Ole Rupe.  I also read his article.  I have also participated in many free speech arguments in my day.  Some included very competitive national moot court competitions during law school.  I felt it was unnecessary for me to add another $.02 worth of opinions since arguments on the many faceted side of this issue have already been made and made and…..  I just did not want to continue to perpetuate this NON FLY FISHING discussion.  I have seen, heard and made many of these arguments in the past.  (So, I started this non fly fishing discussion with a dab of fishing included) <g. Just FYI, at the present time of approximately 10:35 AM in California, there were 114 and counting posts in the To Whom it may Concern thread and 41 and counting on the FAOL Closure thread.  Whew, what passion! I have read many with interest, and it has been an education for me to see how many articulate and passionate individuals are out there in the fishing world.  I applaud you all for your stands on all sides of the issue. Continue to enjoy those threads, but I have a different motivation regarding the time I spend in ROFF notwithstanding my Mea Culpa re email postage stamps.  Oops, there goes my credibility! To give you a flavor of what we are usually discussing, the fly fishing out here in California is wonderful!  In the Central Valley, we are having a very late autumn.  The leaves on the trees are turning to their fall time brilliant yellows, reds and fire oranges.  I am fishing in light Orvis breathable waders and a light shirt under my fly vest.  The Kings River is producing with reluctance, but it does not matter one iota to me.  Being there is enough for me.  For the first time in my short fly fishing ‘career’ I have tied and caught fish on a size 24 Trico Spinners.  Who would have thunk it?  I still can’t believe my eyes when a 16" fish is caught on such a small bug! Nymphing has been my passion of late though.  I broke off 2 good fish using 6X tippet with a Prince Nymph due to my lack of skill in working fish.  I learned fishing in the early ’90’s going for bass.  I can’t seem to lighten up.  I sometimes still have want to SET THE HOOK.  Hopefully, time and practice will correct this fault. The best part is that I did not consider Old Rupe while I was there on the Kings River. Pete

Response:

I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please. Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Guys, I have read with interest many of the posts regarding Ole Rupe.  I also read his article.  I have also participated in many free speech arguments in my day.  Some included very competitive national moot court competitions during law school.  I felt it was unnecessary for me to add another $.02 worth of opinions since arguments on the many faceted side of this issue have already been made and made and…..  I just did not want to continue to perpetuate this NON FLY FISHING discussion.  I have seen, heard and made many of these arguments in the past.  (So, I started this non fly fishing discussion with a dab of fishing included) <g. Just FYI, at the present time of approximately 10:35 AM in California, there were 114 and counting posts in the To Whom it may Concern thread and 41 and counting on the FAOL Closure thread.  Whew, what passion! I have read many with interest, and it has been an education for me to see how many articulate and passionate individuals are out there in the fishing world.  I applaud you all for your stands on all sides of the issue. Continue to enjoy those threads, but I have a different motivation regarding the time I spend in ROFF notwithstanding my Mea Culpa re email postage stamps.  Oops, there goes my credibility! To give you a flavor of what we are usually discussing, the fly fishing out here in California is wonderful!  In the Central Valley, we are having a very late autumn.  The leaves on the trees are turning to their fall time brilliant yellows, reds and fire oranges.  I am fishing in light Orvis breathable waders and a light shirt under my fly vest.  The Kings River is producing with reluctance, but it does not matter one iota to me.  Being there is enough for me.  For the first time in my short fly fishing ‘career’ I have tied and caught fish on a size 24 Trico Spinners.  Who would have thunk it?  I still can’t believe my eyes when a 16" fish is caught on such a small bug! Nymphing has been my passion of late though.  I broke off 2 good fish using 6X tippet with a Prince Nymph due to my lack of skill in working fish.  I learned fishing in the early ’90’s going for bass.  I can’t seem to lighten up.  I sometimes still have want to SET THE HOOK.  Hopefully, time and practice will correct this fault. The best part is that I did not consider Old Rupe while I was there on the Kings River. Pete

Response:

Take it easy, Vern. We’ve had similar blow-ups here before, but eventually everyone chills out… About a week ago – at least a couple of days before Mike’s first post wrt RAOL, I responded to someone (I think it was Jon Cook) that the extended period of Peace On ROFF "was just the calm before the next storm". I had no idea I’d be THAT correct! /daytripper (ROFF is cyclical ;^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please.

Response:

I totally agree.  I’ve even thought about leaving ROFF for a week or two until all the Rupe threads die out. IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. There’s nothing you, I, or anyone can do at this point.  What FAOL chooses to do from here on out is up to themselves.  Everything up to this point is history.  I exhort you, let’s just continue with the ffing.  Please.

I must say I’m a little bit disappointed in you on this one Vern.  In the first place, the Rupe thing is hardly ripping us apart.  There have been many threads on ROFF which generated a lot more fireworks than this one.  In fact, I’ve found the debate on this one to be remarkably civilized.  This is nothing compared to what goes on in the ubiquitous C&R vs C&K threads.  Hell, even a debate about the definition of ‘meniscus’ can get uglier than this. Secondly, if I’m not mistaken, yours was one of the first and loudest voices calling for action against FAOL.  Mind you, I don’t disapprove of your action; I quite agree that something needed to be done and heartily commend you for taking a lead in informing the sponsors of what was happening.  But it seems to me at this late date that for you to call an end to the whole process, when you were so instrumental in initiating it is a bit disingenuous, especially in light of the fact that Mike has been taking the vast majority of the heat.  Again, I don’t have a problem with the action you took, but I am surprised at how little any of the critics had to say to you directly about it.  Now it looks as though you’re trying to duck out while everyone is still focused on Mike’s role and you have escaped unscathed. In short, you were instrumental in stirring up this hornets’ nest, it doesn’t look good for you to be too critical of those who pay attention to the hornets.

Response:

snip<

No sweat, Vern.   This is just one of those discussions that helps bring another dimension to the faceless names here.   Nobody really gets too pissed off, and we get to learn a little bit about each other.   It’s not really a bad thing; it’s what we seem to be.   And after it’s over, we’re still friends (mostly <g).   Nobody would put any of this ahead of a day on the water.   Aside from a waste of bandwidth, it’s harmless, and sometimes fun. Joe F.

Response:

In short, you were instrumental in stirring up this hornets’ nest, it doesn’t

look good for you to be too critical of those who pay attention to the hornets.< As I said initially, I was out of town, missed the start.   Hmmm, Vern, eh?   Should I start all over again?  <g

Response:

Ah, yes, fishing!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <SNIP IT’S OVER.  LET IT DIE. This Rupe thing is ripping up apart.  There are ROFFians on both side of the fence and each group will never totally agree with each other.  That’s okay. We can either continue bickering back and forth with nothing ever being resolved or we can just decide to be silent on the issue.  I choose silence. There are so many other things to talk about. <SNIP Vern, you were a little over-zealous in your support of this action, and I did warn you that it might get ugly, and to be perhaps a little more circumspect. I am not censuring you in any way, you did what you believed was right, and in a good cause.  You stood up for something you believed in, and you have every right to be proud of it.  Do not let anybody else try to persuade you otherwise.  ROFF is made up of a lot of people, the vast majority are perfectly well aware that what was done was the correct thing to do, irrespective of any hair-splitting debates which may occur as an aftermath. I assume the fact that some of your letters are being touted as "hate-mail" etc is unsettling you. Don’t worry about it, there is nothing in those letters which could upset anybody at all with any sense. Simply the request to the sponsors to withdraw their support. You should see my mail !  I did not realise there were so many dangerous nutcases supporting the killing of Indians, I even got mail from some people claiming to be Indians, saying they supported old Rupe.  They really must be nuts. It will take more than something of this nature to "rip ROFF apart".  Try to calm down a bit.  Go fishing ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

You’re my man, Ken. I got your back.

Ditto.  In spades.

Response:

To Debate is interesting and often educational, to Argue, name call and belittle is not…

Is so.   Ignorant Twerp.      

Response:

Wolfgang the bully, writes:

<<Is so.   Ignorant Twerp.       Boy, I’m glad you did tell ol Jim to BMAIAL.  I have that one.  Even use it in my address for anti-spam.  Don’t know what I would do without it.  <g Dave L.

Response:

David, This is so off the mark that I really got a good laugh out of your post.  One thing I have never been accused of is to be a closet anything, or to hide behind anyone.  My wife would really get a kick out of this (BG).  We have a good friend living on Bainbridge Island, and my impression of the place is that a lot of spoiled aging yuppies lived there.  I’m afraid that you have reinforced that image in my mind. Ken, I expected more from someone with an edu address.  "Frogboy"??  (LOL).  I guess it fits that the edu address goes with living in a very sheltered environment. You want to use the word fuckin and you have to use ***’s??  As far as hard-earned flyfishing dollars, you should try to make your living in the real world (G). Kermit – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Oh they take it seriously. They’re the closet racist’s who provide a respectable chorus line to guys like Rupe, and love to hide behind well meaning folks who honestly wonder where the free speech line is, or who are honest political conservatives. The dead giveaway is that they have no bottom line. Ive run into them before here in the NW,  home of the Aryan Nations. They know that murderous remarks like Rupe’s are important because they intimidate minorities from participation in many activities and forums. Its very effective and a lot less risky that acting out their bullshit at work, bombing a church or killing someone on a dark road. They are gutless. They are wacko’s. But they are not stupid. Dave I am bothered by the article, but I would not have taken it seriously anyway.  But I am much more bothered by the pc mob mentality that I witnessed here.  I don’t feel that there is anything to be very proud off here. Blow it out yer ass, frogboy. Just because you’re too f***in’ stupid to take seriously the most vile and vicious racial epithet that can be hurled at Native Americans is no reason to demean the many good people of ROFF that are QUITE proud that this little piece of racist garbage is no longer sponsored by good companies competing for our hard earned flyfishing dollars. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Now I just have to figure out how to suspend a reference line over my head next time out on the pond or a lake… Michael Era

Question:

Mike Connor: <<Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? It ain’t your imagination, Mike.  I have let me feud with George Gehrke bleed onto these pages and for that I am sorry.  My apologies to you and to all of ROFFdom. Dave LaCourse

Response:

My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve

You’re right Mike, lifes too fricking short and time astream is not enough…. So I’ll start…. George, I’ll say this for you positively , you’ve got balls and I admire that quality in you. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

I’m up for it Mike. Tim Apple — "Bamboo is Better"

Response:

I like this idea! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would make an alternative proposal: That each and every single one of us just shuts up and goes fishing for a few days. That’s right.. starting, say Wednesday night (Greenwich time, minus five hours) nobody posts to ROFF until they’ve spent at least two consecutive days fishing.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? You know, one of the main reasons I am more or less hopelessly addicted to this place, is that it removes me from my not inconsiderable everyday problems and worries, much as fishing itself does, although in a different way.  I feel I know many of you, far more intimately than one might imagine, given the intrinsic limitations. This is a very strange medium, and I wonder what exciting new aspects of humanity will arise from it. Hopefully not just negative ones. At the moment the medium is restricted to those with the wherewithal and intelligence to participate, this is however increasing daily, and will hopefully result in considerably improved communications on a wide scale.  It seems almost sacrilegious to waste such an opportunity with petty personal feuds. When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason. Distance and lack of personal knowledge are not sufficient to explain this. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants. My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve ? I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ? Give it some thought. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

What keeps me coming back as a newbie is I’m addicted to flyfishing and this is my fishing when I can’t be on the water (which is most of the time .) I love this sport and I enjoy reading this ng. I’ve learned quite a bit in the short time that I’ve been here and I hope to learn a hell of a lot more. I plan on being here for a long time. I’ve also really enjoyed your stories too Mike, I actually sit down here and wonder what you’ve written this time. Thanks and keep up the great stories. Tight lines, Darin

Response:

Thanks Darin, my pleasure, glad you enjoy them. TL MC

Response:

I think if you re-sort the list by sender (or by thread, for that matter) you’ll see the vocal "WE" are small in number and the frequent posters are repetitive in nature, especially on certain subjects. I attempt to limit myself to the threads of genuine interest to me, reviewing the new posts by: 1) Topic 2) Sender 3) Lines and then determine what I really want to read…after reading those, I then choose "MARK ALL READ" and go away until some later time. What keeps me here?  About 3% of the posts….. Larry #:)# Enjoy the eclipse, those of you that get to see it live….for us on the West Coast of the US, it’s on www.exploratorium.edu beginning at 3am PST. Hey Mike….do you get TWO evening hatches today????  =8^0

Response:

Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? You know, one of the main reasons I am more or less hopelessly addicted to this place, is that it removes me from my not inconsiderable everyday problems and worries, much as fishing itself does, although in a different way.  I feel I know many of you, far more intimately than one might imagine, given the intrinsic limitations. This is a very strange medium, and I wonder what exciting new aspects of humanity will arise from it. Hopefully not just negative ones. At the moment the medium is restricted to those with the wherewithal and intelligence to participate, this is however increasing daily, and will hopefully result in considerably improved communications on a wide scale.  It seems almost sacrilegious to waste such an opportunity with petty personal feuds. When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason. Distance and lack of personal knowledge are not sufficient to explain this. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants. My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve ? I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ? Give it some thought. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason.

I don’t know about how things have been where you are, but for the last few weeks it’s been unbearably hot in parts of the US. Hot weather for long stretches tends to shorten tempers, I’ve noticed. It might also be that you’re normally a peacemaker type and thus more likely to notice such things. It could be multiple threads going on about topics that are controversial here, such as C&R or dam breeching, or unpleasant ones such as the guy who won’t shut up about the Hardy reel on ebay. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants.

I’m game. Of course, I’m going to be offline for a few weeks with dreams of wetting a line in the St. Joseph river than the Florida Intracoastal Waterway, so it won’t be hard for me to refrain from online rudeness. I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ?

I can think of a couple of reasons. For one thing, we’ve a swarm of curmudgeonly bastards here. Old-fashioned gentlemen, and young folks who aspire to be old curmudgeonly bastards someday. In crowds like that, a certain amount of shit-slinging is practically background noise in that you notice it only when it stops. The reason why several of us have Golden Retrievers is that few of us are like them. Not to mention, we do have that common interest: fishing. Fishing is pretty fundamental, and helps to moderate the worst of the virtual carnage. At any rate, I don’t see ROFF becoming a love-in. If nothing else, I would dearly like to not see any single one of you naked. I’m sorry, but my tastes are limited to women within four years of my ripe old practically senile 23. I doubt that any of you qualify. I would make an alternative proposal: That each and every single one of us just shuts up and goes fishing for a few days. That’s right.. starting, say Wednesday night (Greenwich time, minus five hours) nobody posts to ROFF until they’ve spent at least two consecutive days fishing. Look at it this way: We’re all either abrasive old bastards or abrasive young bastards. How do you thing George picked the name for his fly rod project? You can’t stuff twenty of them into one newsgroup without at least a little friction. And yet, when you got a bunch of them into the same room, what did they do? They drank, laughed, went fishing, and drank some more. And if we ever decide to have one in the midwest or the Rockies (or I can figure out travel to NC), I’d be there in a heartbeat. Even after having friction with some of the other people likely to be there, what’s the worst that could happen? That I’d have to drink with fellow fishermen? Please don’t throw this here po’ b’rer rabbit inta that mean ol’ briar patch! —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBN7E52ckBcsCVVLK5AQFlxwQAib10NUq3IcFIDOofXN3xhP77O63ihWXB LBNuADgWBCyJboFoY6/yzLwmRA+g8IOlPPeW5UGIzxJGmD3ebHiE47+oGNrtdLtN v4v2E1ouzd6Fkf4ybdLtam9J2bmll7iit8ylAChDfQ2wmEN6KWdAyUc4I+oJ44KS QSaCeykGu8Q= =QnA3 —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– God invented beer and fishing so that 20-something Kansas Jayhawkers wouldn’t take over the world -me

Response:

Question:

Too late! You two would make a *perfect* couple. How ’bout a honeymoon to Yellowstone? congrats, Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wolfgang,    Plano is my choice also.  They come in a wide variety of sizes and shapes. Ernie Harrison Jesus Ernie!  We’ve got to stop agreeing on everything like this or people are gonna start thinking we’re…well….you know.  Besides, despite Mike’s eloquent plea for restraint and good fellowship I kinda like the usual Sturm und Drang which characterizes this place.  Can’t we find something to fight about?

Response:

Too late! You two would make a *perfect* couple. How ’bout a honeymoon to Yellowstone?

Hey, back off Wolfie, Ernie’s mine.   GRRRRR.   ,      - Ken —

Response:

Well Wolfgang,    We could fight about where we are going to meet tonight. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wolfgang,    Plano is my choice also.  They come in a wide variety of sizes and shapes. Ernie Harrison Jesus Ernie!  We’ve got to stop agreeing on everything like this or people are gonna start thinking we’re…well….you know.  Besides, despite Mike’s eloquent plea for restraint and good fellowship I kinda like the usual Sturm und Drang which characterizes this place.  Can’t we find something to fight about?

Response:

Too late! You two would make a *perfect* couple. How ’bout a honeymoon to Yellowstone?

me think about this for a while.

Response:

The risk of Wheatley boxes (and their clones) is the dreaded Wheatley hatch. Flip one of the covers while you’re in the stream, and chances are that you loose half of the content. Just my 0.02 Euro worth..

LOL! "Wheatley Hatch" – I love it! I had one of those with a tiny Wheatley (Wheatlette?) box which was crammed with minutiae (24’s and smaller), while standing at the Cable Pool on the SJ. I still don’t know how many critters found their freedom that morning… I have two of those shirt-pocket size boxes – all the rest of my W’s use the foam strips. Lesson learned… /daytripper

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Odd question I know, but what is the best way to carry flies?  I have about 150 flys ranging from 22 gnats to size 6 streamers and am trying to find the best overall flybox. I just bought a perrine aluminum box which holds flys in a coil, this works for the size 10s-18s but is not quite so good for the larger flys and is useless for the 22s. Also, my flys are a mix of nymphs, drys and streamers. Should I put my drys in a compartmented fly box? or is the coil holder ok? Thanks KB

Plastic with ripple foam or compartments. 6 of em = 1 Wheatly. Joel Axelrad

Response:

Hi Mike

Hi Kevin, Suitable fly-boxes have always been a major problem, especially if you engage in several types of fly-fishing.( as I do ). I have found it impossible to find one fly-box suitable for all occasions, and I have tried every fly-boy available. The best ones (  apart from the Wheatleys ) are the ones I have made myself.  If the Wheatleys could be made in plastic ( Oh heresy !!!! ) and floated when dropped, and did not rot, and did not dent when  dropped on the only stone within half  a mile, they would be just about perfect. I started using the colour coded boxes fairly quickly, as the types and styles of fly I use increased beyond my capability of keeping track. There is nothing more annoying than trying to get a weighted nymph to float in the surface film !   I colour code my nymphs at the fly bench, depending on weight, but it is still a bloody nuisance picking them out of a full box, especially when the little red spot of varnish ( extra heavy, ten windings of lead  ! ) has worn off.  Colour coded boxes make the whole thing easier. I admit I am a fly freak, and carry anything up to ten thousand ( yes ! I mean it !!! ) flies on  any given trip, so I have a lot of experience. The magnetic solution is quite good, but still sometimes results in crushed hackles. The hooks are magnetised through contact with the magnets, and tend to spring into positions dependent on their intrinsic magnetic fields, which can be a nuisance, otherwise this method is about the best, especially for large flies. If you get the right shape of magnet, the flies are held securely without crushing. The display magnets I mentioned are very powerful, and will hold even large flies in a high wind. They will also hold tiny nymphs satisfactorily. You should have a look in a good stationary store ( artists supplies etc, ) they usually have wide selections of these magnets for pennies. Get the size and shape of magnets to suit your flies, you can glue several different magnets into one box if you wish, depending on how many types of flies you wish to carry. The reason I use the sandwich boxes is that the marabou and similar wings on large flies just will not fit in standard boxes without half the marabou or whatever, being trapped in the damn lid when you close the box. The sandwich boxes are much deeper.  One of the best boxes I have found is the "Curver" sandwich box. This is three inches deep, and carries pike and saltwater flies perfectly, without crushing, and without trapping stuff in the lid. I have several of these boxes ( they are cheap ) some lined with foam, and some with magnets, I have upwards of a thousand flies in each box. My "medium" size seatrout box contains over three thousand flies with ease. Have a good look round before you decide what to get. Half the fun is getting your gear together properly.  I have spent many a winter night "sorting" flies from one box to another, when I should have been tying. I enjoyed it just as much. I am sure you will get lots of advice on this theme here, and I am looking forward to hearing some of the replies myself. Fly containers are one of the biggest problems for the flyfisherman. TL MC

Response:

Line ??????  I think I just lost the drift ?    What the hell is the matter with you folks tonight ?  Or am I too many whiskies ahead ? Tight lines anyway, time for bed I think. MC

Response:

Nah! Nah! Nah! Nah Nah! Naaaaah! Well, maybe the nerve is the SECOND thing to go George! twitch twitch _______  I would not touch this line with a twenty foot fly rod. Self control George!  Self control! 1,2, 3 . . . pant, pant! I will not rise to this drift/troll.

– Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

The risk of Wheatley boxes (and their clones) is the dreaded Wheatley hatch. Flip one of the covers while you’re in the stream, and chances are that you loose half of the content.  Just my 0.02 Euro worth.. Cheers, Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Mike Thanks for your reply.  I’ll look around for the wheatley boxes you suggest. Hi Kevin, A knockoff of the Wheatley box (about  1/3 of the price) is the Okuma. Here is the link for an Okuma from my site. Be warned, it is a good box but it is not the quality of a Wheatley. http://www.ezflyfish.com/ezflyfish/okwinflybox.html For streamers, I like a saltwater style plastic compartmentalized boxes, they segregate the patterns well and it is easy to see what is in each box. an example: http://www.ezflyfish.com/ezflyfish/corunflybox1.html if you have any questions, feel free to ask me… apologies to the group… "John’s" e-mail address is fake. –Walt — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Hi Odd question I know, but what is the best way to carry flies?  I have about 150 flys ranging from 22 gnats to size 6 streamers and am trying to find the best overall flybox. I just bought a perrine aluminum box which holds flys in a coil, this works for the size 10s-18s but is not quite so good for the larger flys and is useless for the 22s. Also, my flys are a mix of nymphs, drys and streamers. Should I put my drys in a compartmented fly box? or is the coil holder ok? Thanks KB

Response:

. . .  am trying to find the best overall flybox.

I use transparent plastic boxes (Myran? Myrant?, something like that), except for a Wheatley swing-leaf given me as a gift.  In one, about 4×6" I keep all the dries I might be using.  The Wheatley gets all the nymphs for the day.  In several other divided plastic boxes I separate flies by dry or nymph, big and little, but these are pretty much for storage, and stay in the duffle.  Big streamers, nymphs, etc., live in their own box. I just bought a perrine aluminum box which holds flys in a coil

Mine got rusty years and years ago, the hooks got rusty too.  Am I a lazy slut, or what? Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me.

Response:

Hi Mike Thanks for your reply.  I’ll look around for the wheatley boxes you suggest. I was trying to see if there was just one box I could carry (being the minimalist that I am), but I think that  you’re right, keeping them stored in color coded boxes probably makes more sense. That way I can get boxes that match the size of the hooks too. Using magnetic fly holders is a darn fine idea!  Do you find the hooks stick OK even when they are jossled around a bit? Do you have any bother with your streamers hanging out the sides of the boxes? I use lots of marabou so the flies are quite bulky. One of the problems I’ve had is finding a box big enough to store them without having to carry a suitcase. Thanks. It’s very helpful to get your advice. Otherwise I’d end up using trial and error and buying a bunch of boxes that are no good. Kevin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A vexed question.   For dry flies and spiders I use Wheatleys compartment boxes. Not ideal, and expensive, but about the best I have used to date. For streamers and standard wet flies and nymphs in all sizes, I use scientific anglers ethafoam lined boxes colour coded so I know which is which, cheap and effective. Works great unless you use barbless hooks. For barbless hooks I use Sandwich boxes from my local supermarket, with strips of magnetic tape glued in. I coat the tape with epoxy to prevent it rusting. There are also various shaped magnets for display boards available, which may be glued into boxes and used for the same purpose. Coat with epoxy to prevent rusting. For small amounts of flies a used small  film canister of clear plastic is a great and cheap container. Just don’t put too many flies in one canister. The same canister drilled all around with small holes and affixed to a lanyard on your vest, jacket etc, makes a great drying box. TL MC

Response:

In one, about 4×6" I keep all the dries I might be using.  

Hmm, I was wondering if drys are better in compartments rather than clipped on. I found it tricky putting them in the coil without crushing the hackle. The Wheatley gets all the nymphs for the day.  In several other divided plastic boxes I separate flies by dry or nymph, big and little, but these are pretty much for storage, and stay in the duffle.  Big streamers, nymphs, etc., live in their own box.

So you don’t use any sort of clipping system at all? Just compartments? Is this easier to find the flys? I just bought a perrine aluminum box which holds flys in a coil Mine got rusty years and years ago, the hooks got rusty too.  Am I a lazy slut, or what?

Oh great! I just spent $26 on the damn thing! Said on the packaging that it won’t rust! Kevin Trout laugh at me, Women walk on me.

Response:

Hi Mike Thanks for your reply.  I’ll look around for the wheatley boxes you suggest.

Hi Kevin, A knockoff of the Wheatley box (about  1/3 of the price) is the Okuma. Here is the link for an Okuma from my site. Be warned, it is a good box but it is not the quality of a Wheatley. http://www.ezflyfish.com/ezflyfish/okwinflybox.html For streamers, I like a saltwater style plastic compartmentalized boxes, they segregate the patterns well and it is easy to see what is in each box. an example: http://www.ezflyfish.com/ezflyfish/corunflybox1.html if you have any questions, feel free to ask me… apologies to the group… "John’s" e-mail address is fake. –Walt — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

I just bought my 11 year old son a Cabela’s box with the nubby stuff instead of foam.  We got home and put some flies in it then pulled them out.  It works!  It holds well and lets them go when you pull.  I dropped it about 2 feet onto a table to see how many flies came loose and none did.  (I am pretty sure weighted streamers might pop out under those conditions.) I am thinking about picking some up for myself. (No association with Cabela’s other than as a paying customer.) — — Sherman Dunnam www.flyfishingjournal.com Stream Reports, Free Fishing Software & More

Response:

Whatever your name is AKA John Smith, I tried fooling around with different size boxes for sorting flys and it seemed like a damn fine idea.  What I discovered was the multiple boxes take up more room than a single larger box.  When I tried to create specialty boxes for different fishing situations (ie, small stream box) I always left out the flys I wanted when I got on stream.  I now carry two boxes, one for trout and one for smallmouth.  Bluegill and largemouth are fed from the smallmouth box.  The Millstream box with ripples on both sides worked better in the long run than the nubs in my Cortland box.  I’m going to drill a few holes to facilitate drying if I take a dunking (has happened a couple of times) as the boxes are not waterproof.  Most plastic boxes with ripple foam are manufactured by or knockoffs of the Millstream. Granddaddy always told me a man should be willing to sign his name to anything he writes.  If he’s not willing to sign his name then his word isn’t worth the paper its written on.  If you’re afraid of a little SPAM then get the hell off the internet.  You spend more time ducking it than deleting the crap. Wayne To fish is human…to release Divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Odd question I know, but what is the best way to carry flies?  I have about 150 flys ranging from 22 gnats to size 6 streamers and am trying to find the best overall flybox. I just bought a perrine aluminum box which holds flys in a coil, this works for the size 10s-18s but is not quite so good for the larger flys and is useless for the 22s. Also, my flys are a mix of nymphs, drys and streamers. Should I put my drys in a compartmented fly box? or is the coil holder ok? Thanks KB

Response:

_______  I would not touch this line with a twenty foot fly rod. Self control George!  Self control! 1,2, 3 . . . pant, pant! I will not rise to this drift/troll.

Response:

A vexed question.   For dry flies and spiders I use Wheatleys compartment boxes. Not ideal, and expensive, but about the best I have used to date. For streamers and standard wet flies and nymphs in all sizes, I use scientific anglers ethafoam lined boxes colour coded so I know which is which, cheap and effective. Works great unless you use barbless hooks.  For barbless hooks I use Sandwich boxes from my local supermarket, with strips of magnetic tape glued in. I coat the tape with epoxy to prevent it rusting. There are also various shaped magnets for display boards available, which may be glued into boxes and used for the same purpose. Coat with epoxy to prevent rusting. For small amounts of flies a used small  film canister of clear plastic is a great and cheap container. Just don’t put too many flies in one canister. The same canister drilled all around with small holes and affixed to a lanyard on your vest, jacket etc, makes a great drying box. TL MC

Response:

Wolfgang,    Plano is my choice also.  They come in a wide variety of sizes and shapes. Ernie Harrison

Jesus Ernie!  We’ve got to stop agreeing on everything like this or people are gonna start thinking we’re…well….you know.  Besides, despite Mike’s eloquent plea for restraint and good fellowship I kinda like the usual Sturm und Drang which characterizes this place.  Can’t we find something to fight about?

Response:

The cheapest and a very effective example is a plastic box lined with foam.  You can buy a Wheatley if you have the extra money to spend. Forrest Arakawa Forrest – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A vexed question.   For dry flies and spiders I use Wheatleys compartment boxes. Not ideal, and expensive, but about the best I have used to date. For streamers and standard wet flies and nymphs in all sizes, I use scientific anglers ethafoam lined boxes colour coded so I know which is which, cheap and effective. Works great unless you use barbless hooks.  For barbless hooks I use Sandwich boxes from my local supermarket, with strips of magnetic tape glued in. I coat the tape with epoxy to prevent it rusting. There are also various shaped magnets for display boards available, which may be glued into boxes and used for the same purpose. Coat with epoxy to prevent rusting. For small amounts of flies a used small  film canister of clear plastic is a great and cheap container. Just don’t put too many flies in one canister. The same canister drilled all around with small holes and affixed to a lanyard on your vest, jacket etc, makes a great drying box. TL MC

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Wolfgang,    Plano is my choice also.  They come in a wide variety of sizes and shapes. Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the past ten years or so I have used Plano mini (or is it micro?) magnum boxes exclusively.  These boxes are about 3×4 inches and open on both top and bottom.  There are several sizes of compartments which will accommodate all sizes of flies with the exception of mammoth salt water or pike and musky patterns.  I know it is heresy to suggest that one keep one’s delicate dries in a loose jumble but it has never done mine any damage.  These boxes have the added advantage of being transparent allowing you to see what you’ve got without opening.  They are also VERY cheap; in the neighborhood of two to three bucks a piece. Good luck.

Response:

Hi Odd question I know, but what is the best way to carry flies?

John; For the past ten years or so I have used Plano mini (or is it micro?) magnum boxes exclusively.  These boxes are about 3×4 inches and open on both top and bottom.  There are several sizes of compartments which will accommodate all sizes of flies with the exception of mammoth salt water or pike and musky patterns.  I know it is heresy to suggest that one keep one’s delicate dries in a loose jumble but it has never done mine any damage.  These boxes have the added advantage of being transparent allowing you to see what you’ve got without opening.  They are also VERY cheap; in the neighborhood of two to three bucks a piece. Good luck.

Response:

If there is any possibility of loss of flies due to spill or wind you must leave these on the mantel at home. They have no place astream. Your pal, – TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

I’m afraid you’re too many whiskeys behind. Line ??????  I think I just lost the drift ?    What the hell is the matter with you folks tonight ?  Or am I too many whiskies ahead ? Tight lines anyway, time for bed I think. MC

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Question:

Hi, I am planning a 1 week fishing vacation in Montana for the 3rd week of September. I am thinking of fishing with a guide for a couple of days and without guides for four days. I don’t know anything, though, about the best rivers to fish in this particular period, about the type of insects I might expect etc. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. – Vittorio Castelli

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am planning a 1 week fishing vacation in Montana for the 3rd week of September. I am thinking of fishing with a guide for a couple of days and without guides for four days. I don’t know anything, though, about the best rivers to fish in this particular period, about the type of insects I might expect etc. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. – Vittorio Castelli

Where in Montana will you be??

Response:

September hatches include the blue-winged olive and the beginning of the October caddis hatch.  Hopper activity is still high then too.  Browns will be thinking about there up and coming spawning runs.  Missouri and lower Clark Fork are my favorites then. — Brian D. Nelson Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am planning a 1 week fishing vacation in Montana for the 3rd week of September. I am thinking of fishing with a guide for a couple of days and without guides for four days. I don’t know anything, though, about the best rivers to fish in this particular period, about the type of insects I might expect etc. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. – Vittorio Castelli Where in Montana will you be??

Well, as I was saying, I am planning a trip in the generic area of Montana, but I don’t know where. I have no preferred place, having fished there only once and in less-than-optimal conditions. -Vittorio

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am planning a 1 week fishing vacation in Montana for the 3rd week of September. I am thinking of fishing with a guide for a couple of days and without guides for four days. I don’t know anything, though, about the best rivers to fish in this particular period, about the type of insects I might expect etc. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. – Vittorio Castelli Where in Montana will you be?? Well, as I was saying, I am planning a trip in the generic area of Montana, but I don’t know where. I have no preferred place, having fished there only once and in less-than-optimal conditions. -Vittorio

Big state ya know…around Missoula is good…lower Clark Fork is good…of course the Yellowstone area is good…the Big Horn area is good…lots of good!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am planning a 1 week fishing vacation in Montana for the 3rd week of September. I am thinking of fishing with a guide for a couple of days and without guides for four days. I don’t know anything, though, about the best rivers to fish in this particular period, about the type of insects I might expect etc. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. – Vittorio Castelli

Hi Vittorio Missoula will put you close to the Clark’s Fork, Missouri, and the Bitteroot rivers. Bozeman puts you close to Yellowstone Park, Yellowstone, Madison, Gallatin, Missouri, & Bighorn rivers. Billings puts you close to the lower Yellowstone and the Bighorn rivers The 3rd week in September is black caddis time on the Bighorn. Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am planning a 1 week fishing vacation in Montana for the 3rd week of September. I am thinking of fishing with a guide for a couple of days and without guides for four days. I don’t know anything, though, about the best rivers to fish in this particular period, about the type of insects I might expect etc. Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. – Vittorio Castelli

I had excellent fishing the 3rd week of September, 1996, in the Missoula area, especially on guided floats on the Clark Fork and Bitterroot Rivers, but also wading the Clark Fork and the St. Joe in Idaho (2+ hour drive).  I also floated on a Kingfisher pontoon boat the Missouri both above and below Craig 9/24 and 9/25.  The Missouri didn’t fish as well then as it had in mid-August, ‘96, or mid July, ‘94 and ‘95, but it was a lot less crowded.  Of course, those 2 days in September may just have been off days– cold, windy, dreary. In Missoula I can strongly recommend Missoulian Angler as outfitter– see http://www.ism.net/~mslanglr/index.html  I used them in ‘95 and ‘96 for guides, gear and advice and have been very satisfied in all respects.  The guides are very hard working and will keep you catching fish from morning well into the dark if you’re up for it. Also, the rivers in the Missoula area, except for Rock Creek, are considerably less crowded than the Missouri, Gallatin, Madison and Yellowstone Park rivers, which adds to my pleasure. Phil Holt

Response:

In response to the message from me to this newsgroup earlier today about September fishing in the Missoula area, I received the following boldly stated Also, the rivers in the Missoula area, except for Rock Creek, are considerably less crowded than the Missouri, Gallatin, Madison and Yellowstone Park rivers, which adds to my pleasure. Phil Holt SO MUCH FOR THEM NOT BEING CROWDED ANYMORE!!!!!  THANKS ALOT!!!!

I admire a person who has the courage of their convictions.

Response:

: Missoula will put you close to the Clark’s Fork, Missouri, and the : Bitteroot rivers. Al, you left out that Missoula also puts one close to Idaho. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Oh yeah…if he wants a potato! :=)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to the message from me to this newsgroup earlier today about September fishing in the Missoula area, I received the following boldly stated Also, the rivers in the Missoula area, except for Rock Creek, are considerably less crowded than the Missouri, Gallatin, Madison and Yellowstone Park rivers, which adds to my pleasure. Phil Holt SO MUCH FOR THEM NOT BEING CROWDED ANYMORE!!!!!  THANKS ALOT!!!! I admire a person who has the courage of their convictions.

If I identified myself I might have to worry that you would follow me to my favorite and still reasonably  secluded fishing holes!  I can imagine… elbow to elbow!!

Response:

: Missoula will put you close to the Clark’s Fork, Missouri, and the : Bitteroot rivers. Al, you left out that Missoula also puts one close to Idaho. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Gee, Bill, as a fellow who makes his living peddling ranch land to developers, I’d think you’d support any effort to encourage people to immigrate to Montana, as you did, or just come to build second homes and enjoy the fishing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to the message from me to this newsgroup earlier today about September fishing in the Missoula area, I received the following boldly stated Also, the rivers in the Missoula area, except for Rock Creek, are considerably less crowded than the Missouri, Gallatin, Madison and Yellowstone Park rivers, which adds to my pleasure. Phil Holt SO MUCH FOR THEM NOT BEING CROWDED ANYMORE!!!!!  THANKS ALOT!!!! I admire a person who has the courage of their convictions. If I identified myself I might have to worry that you would follow me to my favorite and still reasonably  secluded fishing holes!  I can imagine… elbow to elbow!!

Response:

OK, thanks to my stupidity its all out in the open now!  I hope you realize I did this all tongue in cheek…  it is just a small town and I would hate for someone to think I was serious (by the way… I didn’t mean to send it to you direct the first time… I am new to the newsgroups… I meant to post it as a follow up);  HOWEVER, I do take issue with your characterization of my business.  We do not "peddle" to developers!  In fact, we work closely with the nature conservancy and many other conservation minded organizations and individuals hoping to protect lands from overdevelopment.  By the way, do I know you?!?  How did you find out about my business, Sherlock? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gee, Bill, as a fellow who makes his living peddling ranch land to developers, I’d think you’d support any effort to encourage people to immigrate to Montana, as you did, or just come to build second homes and enjoy the fishing. In response to the message from me to this newsgroup earlier today about September fishing in the Missoula area, I received the following boldly stated Also, the rivers in the Missoula area, except for Rock Creek, are considerably less crowded than the Missouri, Gallatin, Madison and Yellowstone Park rivers, which adds to my pleasure. Phil Holt SO MUCH FOR THEM NOT BEING CROWDED ANYMORE!!!!!  THANKS ALOT!!!! I admire a person who has the courage of their convictions. If I identified myself I might have to worry that you would follow me to my favorite and still reasonably  secluded fishing holes!  I can imagine… elbow to elbow!!

Response:

Dear Victorio,  We suggest you visit our guest ranch, Hawley Mountain Guest Ranch.  You can get more details on the ranch at http://www.duderanch.org than go to Montana state to find us.  We have four lodge rooms and three cabins on 155 acres surrounded by a million acres of wilderness 25 miles north of Yellowstone Park.  Within walking distance of our lodge we have a stocked trout pond and 1 mile of the Boulder  River.  Guiding is included in our rates and a 4 day minimum stay is possible in September.  In addition, in September we will be fishing in streams and lakes in the Wilderness that can be reached by horseback.  The best flyfishing in Montana at our altitude (6400ft.) is from mid-July through September. BBlewett

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, thanks to my stupidity its all out in the open now!  I hope you realize I did this all tongue in cheek…  it is just a small town and I would hate for someone to think I was serious (by the way… I didn’t mean to send it to you direct the first time… I am new to the newsgroups… I meant to post it as a follow up);  HOWEVER, I do take issue with your characterization of my business.  We do not "peddle" to developers!  In fact, we work closely with the nature conservancy and many other conservation minded organizations and individuals hoping to protect lands from overdevelopment.  By the way, do I know you?!?  How did you find out about my business, Sherlock? Gee, Bill, as a fellow who makes his living peddling ranch land to developers, I’d think you’d support any effort to encourage people to immigrate to Montana, as you did, or just come to build second homes and enjoy the fishing. In response to the message from me to this newsgroup earlier today about September fishing in the Missoula area, I received the following boldly stated Also, the rivers in the Missoula area, except for Rock Creek, are considerably less crowded than the Missouri, Gallatin, Madison and Yellowstone Park rivers, which adds to my pleasure. Phil Holt SO MUCH FOR THEM NOT BEING CROWDED ANYMORE!!!!!  THANKS ALOT!!!! I admire a person who has the courage of their convictions. If I identified myself I might have to worry that you would follow me to my favorite and still reasonably  secluded fishing holes!  I can imagine… elbow to elbow!!

Ahem, I apologize, I just wanted some information, I really did not mean to start such a discussion !! Anyway, thanks to all of you that sent me notes or replied to my inquiry on the usergroup, I am sort of getting some ideas of what to do and where to go, too bad  the 3rd week of september is not 100 days long …. Going back to the fuss, I am just wondering what would have happened if I had mentioned Orvis in my posting … Just kidding ! -Vittorio

Response:

Will be in Montana 3rd week of Sept. and hitting several rivers. We have to make a decision to fish either the Madison or Yellowstone but not both. Tough choice. Anybody having fished both at this time of year I would like to hear from you. I was hoping some fish might still be on hoppers on the Yellowstone and maybe the Madison around Ennis.  Anybody knowing of any private water fee fishing in either area as a distraction let me know.  I have also been told that fishing in the Slide Inn area has been coming back lately. Any verification on this? Thanks.

Response:

Will be in Montana 3rd week of Sept. and hitting several rivers. We have to make a decision to fish either the Madison or Yellowstone but not both. Tough choice. Anybody having fished both at this time of year I would like to hear from you. I was hoping some fish might still be on hoppers on the Yellowstone and maybe the Madison around Ennis.  Anybody knowing of any private water fee fishing in either area as a distraction let me know.  I have also been told that fishing in the Slide Inn area has been coming back lately. Any verification on this? Thanks.

Hi Glen September fishing on either river will be great. Fish are just starting to take hopper now and this will continue until a hard freeze or two kills them off. Also streamer fishing on the Yellowstone river in the fall is also good. Fee waters in the area include the spring creeks in the Paradise valley. I suggest getting in contact with the River’s Edge in Bozeman (406-586-5373) when you get here to get information, licenses, guides, whatever. If you want a day on the spring creeks I suggest booking soon. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will be in Montana 3rd week of Sept. and hitting several rivers. We have to make a decision to fish either the Madison or Yellowstone but not both. Tough choice. Anybody having fished both at this time of year I would like to hear from you. I was hoping some fish might still be on hoppers on the Yellowstone and maybe the Madison around Ennis.  Anybody knowing of any private water fee fishing in either area as a distraction let me know.  I have also been told that fishing in the Slide Inn area has been coming back lately. Any verification on this? Thanks.

I fished the Madison and the Yellowstone the 3rd week of September 1996.  However, the rivers were not as high as they are this year. There were some, but not a lot of, hoppers.  The nights were too cold. Hoppers did not get active until late afternoon.  A royal trude, size 14 or 16, with a prince nymph or hare’s ear nymph dropper tied directly off the hook of the trude with about 20 to 24 inches of tippet worked well on both rivers.  Humpy, caddis, stimulator, bee, and trude patterns worked well on the Madison,  These were also fished with a prince nymph or hare’s ear nymph dropper.   I would forget the fee fishing and consider trying a float tube on South Meadow Lake out of McAllister if it is accessible.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.  Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park. Snow pack is at 200% in most of the Yellowstone area. Most rivers and tributaries will be high until Aug. Stick to the lakes. Guy

Response:

June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park.

There is no Firehole outside the Park. <g  -AR

Response:

Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.

Response:

Expect Snow! Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June?

– Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

Response:

Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.

 Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry

Response:

My wife and I fished Yellowstone the last week of June 2 years ago when they had an unusually high run-off.  The only river fishable was the Firehole.

I can give you updates from time to time, but the snowpack here in the wyoming mountains is very high this year- I will not be a pretty spring. I plan on starting my fishing in August (no, I’m not joking)

Response:

My wife and I fished Yellowstone the last week of June 2 years ago when they had an unusually high run-off.  The only river fishable was the Firehole.  We had pretty good luck about 3 miles below Old Faithful Inn – can’t remember the names of the river sections.  Every other river we tried was so full of water you couldn’t reasonably fish them. I suggest you wait until after 15 July. J. Bjostad John Bjostad Columbia Heights, MN Retired avionics engineer – full time fly fishing addict

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.  Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry

June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any recommendations or advice on flyfishing in/around the Yellowstone area in June? Thanx. Gregg.  Gregg  From what I hear, find some not still frozen lakes. Water will be everywhere, not that one cannot fish  during the run- off, it is just limiting. Harry June is usually a good month for dry flies on the Firehole inside the Park.

 Hi Steve   You are right, PMD’s are in full swing, as well as the Winnabago emergence and the evening Mini Van fall. Makes for some real fun back casting, at Fountain Flats one can hook a  tuna sandwich and a Brown on the same cast     HM

Response:

Question:

re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

No, but I hear smoking a rat works well. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Has anyone had any experience with a new product from SC Johnson that does not contain DEET — Skintastic.  Please let me know if effective. -Mark

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                     Colorado School of Mines             Rice University                     Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown           http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

  Morgan  Try eating lots of vitamin B-12 a week or so before you go. Deet products do work though.   Harry

Response:

Try Avon’s Skin-so-soft.  It works great, smells okay, and doesn’t leave a residue on things because you don’t spray it–it’s a lotion. Rich Utah Fish Finder http://www.xmission.com/~rpprods/utah/fishing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel! Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown          http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

Response:

: Try Avon’s Skin-so-soft.  It works great, smells okay, and doesn’t leave a : residue on things because you don’t spray it–it’s a lotion. : : Rich : Utah Fish Finder : http://www.xmission.com/~rpprods/utah/fishing : Has anyone mentioned the smelly kind of Bounce pined to your collar or fishing hat? I use it to keep deer flies away. Cheers, Bob — lukn4fish Bob Madden San Jose, Ca

Response:

re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

     (I missed part of this thread, so if I repeat things I apologise.)      Many years ago, I spent two summers working on an archeological project in the Malheur Refuge/Blitzen River region of southeastern Oregon.  This is SERIOUS mosquito country, and we tried everything under the sun (there was plenty of that, too.)  DEET worked best, but it is yucky, maybe dangerous,etc etc.  Here’s a quick summary of our experiments: SMOKE:  Cigar and pipe smoke definitely help.  I smoked a very cheap brand of pipe tobacco called Granger, but I haven’t seen this for years.  A really effective method, taught to us by a Basque geologist, was to make a sort of incense burner out of a large tin can and burn dried cow chips upwind of where we were excavating, though this wouldn’t work for fishing.  (This smoke does not stink.) OILS: The Organic/Vegetarians among us tried oils of pennyroyal, eucalyptus, citronella, camphor, and cedar.  These weren’t much help; they were most effective when mixed with mineral oil or vaseline to give a greasy coating to the skin.  FYI, pennyroyal smells like an angry skunk wearing patchouli. VITAMINS: Some folks tried taking massive doses of B vitamins.  I don’t know if this worked on the bugs, but the users smelled faintly of vitamins after a while. COVERAGE: One fellow was very sensitive to bug bites, and took to wearing a mesh mask and long sleeved shirts.  He cut a very mysterious figure out there in the High Desert, but this worked  well, especially when he sprayed the shirt and mask lightly with DEET-based repellent.  I have since heard of people installing a transparent plastic view port in a mesh mask to improve vision.      Hope this helps.  –Roger (formerly an archeologist) Wiggin, Portland

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try Avon’s Skin-so-soft.  It works great, smells okay, and doesn’t leave a residue on things because you don’t spray it–it’s a lotion. Rich Utah Fish Finder http://www.xmission.com/~rpprods/utah/fishing Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel! Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown          http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

Avon’s Skin-so-soft works for some folks but not for others (and won’t handle bad bugs). Perhaps it has something to do with body chemistry. All Terrain out of California make a bug repellent and bug repellent/sun screen combo that has no DEET or other nasty stuff. I have tested it and it works if your problem is not to bad, i.e. won’t handle northwoods blackflies. I find that it lasts for an hour to two hours. If the problem is severe, there is no substitute for DEET. When faced with a trip to a blackfly infested area I don’t use any soap or shampoo for several days before or during the duration of the trip, and then try and use as little of a very strong Deet solution as possible. Bug jackets are another solution but they can be a pain and, as a smoker, I can’t handle net over my face. I concur as well with the earlier advice about cigars, I like to have several packages of the stinkiest and longest lasting I can find. Paul Marriner

Response:

Avon’s Skin-so-soft works for some folks but not for others (and won’t handle bad bugs)…I find that it lasts for an hour to two hours. …

This has been my experience also.  The active mosquito-repelling ingredient in Skin-So-Soft is good old citronella.  It works for mosquitoes for awhile, but after the citronella wears off in an hour or so, it’s time for more.  It does come in a sun screen variety, by the way. All in all, for long lasting mosquito protection, DEET is the only thing that really works.  Of course, it’s also a darn good solvent for plastic.

Response:

I had an opportunity to try Skintastic this summer in Fairbanks. It worked very well for up to four hours, although I wasn’t on the river during that time (we were hiking…). Otherwise, with just some old generic repellant, the ’skeetas’ chewed me and my family up "right well." Luckily, Fairbanks was the only place in late June where we ran into mosquitos in any significant number. Maybe they just don’t like West Texans…?

Maybe they were skeeters transplanted from Colorado. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

I make my own repellent. I call it "TBone’s Artificial Bug Repellent".  I still get the crap bit out of me by real bugs, but every time a try to to on an artificial, I drop it into the river never to be seen again, so I know that it works. TimW

Response:

I suffer from the same problem. If I’m in a crowd one mosquito’ll find me. Try vitamin B-1. Load up for a week before you go out. Something about it turns ‘em off. Regards, — Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com./ "I’m the boss,so WHATEVER I say is OK"

Response:

I suffer from the same problem. If I’m in a crowd one mosquito’ll find me. Try vitamin B-1. Load up for a week before you go out. Something about it turns ‘em off.

AHH GOOD NEWS, WERE IN LUCK !!!! Plenty of B Vites in the beer I’ll bring along…what time are we leaving ?!?!? TimW

Response:

Has anyone had any experience with a new product from SC Johnson that does not contain DEET — Skintastic.  Please let me know if effective. -Mark

I used Natrapel last week where there were swarms of mosquitos.   Worked very well!  Got about four bites after 2 nights of camping/fishing.

Response:

I have heard this from other sources but unfortunately it is not true the Skintastic is DEET-free. Skintastic contains N,N-diethyl-meta-toluamide which is DEET. The selling points for Skintastic are that it contains less DEET (6.65%), has aloe for the skin and is not supposed to feel greasy. DEET got a bad name when it was linked to Gulf War Syndrome where it is thought to have been a causative agent when administered in combination with an anti-nerve gas drug (a cholinesterase inhibitor, I believe). DEET has also been implicated in neurotoxic reactions in kids when applied frequently with preparations containing high amounts of DEET (50% or more). The only DEET missing from Skintastic is the word DEET on the label. The marketing people probably wanted to avoid pushing the DEET! hot buttons of consumers. Typical, just avoid the D-word and it will be all right. From what I have read, DEET repels bugs in a concentration dependent manner with 25% DEET being adequate for ticks and less needed for mosquitoes. Apparently, 56% of DEET applied to the skin is absorbed into your system where it is deposited in fat and takes several months to be mobilized and then metabolized in the liver for excretion. Thus, the more you apply the more you accumulate. The duration of effect is also concentration dependent since DEET evaporates and then requires reapplication. Higher concentrations give a longer lasting effect. The totality of the toxic effects of DEET remain unclear. However, young children seem to be the most affected either due to body size or inherent sensitivity. I suppose it will take a generation of adult guinea pigs to ascertain any long term effects of DEET use in adults. My wife and I generally try to apply DEET products to our clothes. We use a bandana with DEET on it that hangs over the forehead and over the back of the neck under a broadbrimmed hat for head protection. This seems to generate a DEET miasma in the air near the skin and works well on mosquitoes and blackflies. This leaves the hands as a target where we apply as little DEET as possible. For our daughter (22 mo.), we don’t use any DEET but dress her with turtle neck shirt and long pants and use citronella oil wipes on her exposed skin. This works OK but requires frequent reapplication. It would be interesting to hear some more nonDEET repellent strategies. Live long and bug-free. Jon

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I had an opportunity to try Skintastic this summer in Fairbanks. It worked very well for up to four hours, although I wasn’t on the river during that time (we were hiking…). Otherwise, with just some old generic repellant, the ’skeetas’ chewed me and my family up "right well." Luckily, Fairbanks was the only place in late June where we ran into mosquitos in any significant number. Maybe they just don’t like West Texans…? Roger Saathoff Lubbock

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                     Colorado School of Mines             Rice University                     Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown           http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

   Note:   I have been using strips of Downy fabric softner tyed to my shirt or hat with some success in keeping bugs away.  Not 100% but it helps.   Tom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                     Colorado School of Mines           Rice University                     Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown            http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

This is a pretty common problem.  Someone taught me a trick recently.  When you apply DEET, put it on the BACK of one hand, and rub the backs of your hands together.  Try to avoid getting DEET on the front of your hands. Good Luck Scott

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel! Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown          http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

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Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                 Colorado School of Mines                 Rice University                 Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown                http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

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Question:

Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. — Gerald Strom University of Illinois at Chicago

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

cut it off…put the dry on you hatband of drying patch… if this makes your tippet too short then cut this off and replace it too… TimW

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

Hi Gerald First off there is no such thing as a dumb question.  That’s what this group is all about — questions and answers. When you want to change a fly just cut one off and tie on another.  There are special nippers made for this purpose OR if you don’t have one a small finger nail clipper will work just fine.  When I first started I used a finger nail clipper on a loop of old fly line around my neck for several years. There are several different knots used to tie on flies.  You can go to the library and find a book on fly fishing or check at your local fly shop.  There is a neat little book (about 3"x5") on knots available today.  I personally like the Uni Knot but there are other good knots as well.  Many of the fly line manufacturers include knot tying instructions with there fly line.  Also I have an old aluminum Perine fly box that has the knot tying instruction on the front of the box. Keep asking the questions and I’m sure you’ll find someone more experienced on this group who will help. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT(96 catalog)

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Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this?  Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks. —

I must admit that I have never thought about it till now.  basicly i cut (bite) the old one off,  I guess that this results in the tippet ( end of the leader) becomming shorter and shorter.   In the UK you can get in small "snap" links from Mustard which are designed for easy fly changing Julian

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Just cut fly off as close to hook as as possible then tie on new fly.Best to have someone show you improved clinch knot or uni knot

best of luck -jkralic

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Heck, if you haven’t caught the darn thing in a tree behind you, you can’t be that dumb… Just snip it off and buy lots of tippet.

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writes: Okay, I tie on a dry fly and go out and fish.  But I don’t catch anything and want to change my fly (as opposed to closing my fly).  How do I do this? Cut the old one off?  Untie (how) the fly that is already on?  What?  Sure sound like dumb but important questions to me and I hope someone can help a beginner.  Thanks.

No need to apologize for your question.  the only stupid question is the one that doesn’t get asked.  Enjoyed the pun by the way ;^ When you want to change flies, you simply cut off the first one and tie on another. Eventually this will shorten your tippet (if you don’t lose it to a fly eating tree or bush first, or cast some wind knots into it), but then you cut that off and tie on a new piece.  Orvis has a waterproof knot booklet for about $5 that has the appropriate knots listed and how to tie them. Personally I use the Orvis knot to tie on most trout flies and a Trilene knot to tie on any fly large enough to pass the tippet through the eye twice (large streamers, bass flies, steelheadsalmon flies, saltwater flies).  On flies that I want to use a lot of action on I will often use a Duncan’s loop.                            Hope this helps,                                      Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

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In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

Response:

In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe I myself work on the premise that my tippet should be either the same or one size smaller than the tip section of my leader. For determining the end "tippet" size a good general rule is too devide your hook size by three. Example: Size 12 adams – use a 4x tippet. Reel simple

One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

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One approach is to use a 3X leader and then step down to the desired tippet size  using 6 – 8 inch long transition sections.  For example, if you want to use a 6X tippet, you would use 8 inches of 4X and 8 inches of 5 X between the leader and tippet section. This way you only carry one size leader. Regards, Chuck

Not a bad idea Chuck except for me personally I find it very difficult to  tie on those little pieces of tippet material while there is a feeding frenzy going on. For some reason my fingers and brain seem to disconnect while whatching trout splashing and jumping all around me, not to mention the problem of cold fingers or low light. I generally carry a range of leaders sizes 3x-6x pretied with 3 feet of tippet section done while at home whatching a fishing show or something. This allows me more time to fish and less aggravation on the water. I only tie on the water if I have to. Tight lines Russ

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(DLowe21757) writes: In follow up to one beginners question to another, does it matter what size leader you use as long as the tippet is a smaller size? Do I need to change leaders if I’m going to the trout stream after I’ve been fishing for bluegill in a pond, or just the tippet? Thanks. D. Lowe

Boy this can be a can of worms! Commercial knotless tapered leaders consist of three parts – butt section (which is heavy and level or very slightly tapered), the tapering section (which rapidly tapers down to your tippet size), and the tippet section (which is also level and the part that you tie onto the fly).  So your leader already has a tippet on it.  You can replace the tippet as needed as you break it off or cut it down from changing flies.  Much less expensive to tie on a new tippet section than to change an entire leader every time you mess up the tippet.  You can also change how your leader performs by cutting back or adding tippet.  If you add tippet you will get more slack out near the fly, if you cut back tippet you will get more power delivered to the fly resulting is less slack and more ease in turning over large flies or regular flies in windy conditions.  You can play around with the butt section in the opposite manner to accomplish the same thing, but that means tying two knots instead of one.  And of course if you really want to get carried away you can vary both to fine tune the leader to your needs. A good approximate guide to which tippet size to use is to divide the size of your fly by 3 and use the resultant number for your tippet X number. For instance: size 18 fly divided by 3 = 6X tippet, size 12 divided by 3 = 4X, size 16 divided by 3 = 5X and a little left over.  In slow clear water with spooky trout you may have to go one X smaller, and in fast pocket water you may be able to go one X larger.  Listen to what the fish say, they’ll tell you. Length of leader is more a function of the water type than anything else. We use longer leaders for greater subtlety (less obtrusive than the fly line) and more suppleness.  Long leaders – 9 to 12 ft.- are most commonly needed in slow clear water with spooky trout.  That is because the trout gets a long time to inspect your fly in slow water and are typically more critical of drag.  Short leaders – 6 to 7 1/2 ft. – are used in faster water for better control with typically larger flies in fast water conditions.  In fast water the trout gets only a short time to see your fly before he takes it or rejects it and there is not usually as much food available (harsher conditions) so he tends to be more opportunistic than in the slower water conditions.  Since we don’t need the added subtlety and suppleness of the longer leader in faster conditions we don’t use it. Always best to use the shortest heaviest leader you can get away with. Again listen to the trout.   If the trout aren’t taking your fly you probably need to go longer and finer.  Sometimes the shortest stoutest leader that will work is a 12 ft. 6X or 7X leader.                      Hope this helps,                              Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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Question:

                            FLY FISHING BOOKS                                  FOR THE                                 SPORTSMAN * The American Sportsman Treasury, ‘71, by Knopf.  A collection of Fly Fishing and Hunting stories, with terrific art work and photos.  Chapters on fly fishing for Brown and Rainbow Trout, fly patterns that produce results, bamboo fly rods; and hunting white tail deer, woodcock, water foul, mountain sheep, grouse, etc. All written by famous authors, eg. Charles F. Waterman, Lee Wulff, Leonard M. Wright, Roderick Haig-Brown, William G. Sheldon and many others. An excellent book for the all around sportsman, and a way to reflect on the sporting heritage. * The Treasury of Angling, ‘63 by Koller.  A comprehensive history of angling, and the birth and growth of fly fishing. Chapters on angling in antiquity, early american angling, tackle, flies, entomology, Salmon, Trout, Bass, and other fresh water fish.  Terrific photos and art work.  Learn about the history of fly fishing and game fish, and gain a full sporting knowledge of the art of fly fishing. E-mail me if interested in these books, and I will e-mail cost info. JWTrout/2/11/96

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