Question:

George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to

I can’t imagine anyone named George flaming anyone in this manner. <g — TL, Tim

Response:

George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to I can’t imagine anyone named George flaming anyone in this manner. <g

I’m shocked! SHOCKED! I tells ya! /daytripper (Could never happen here

Response:

There’s an old Western pattern, The Rio Grande Trude, that’s VERY similar to your Pass Lake. It was somewhat of a standard some twenty years ago, but you seldom see it anymore. There was a guy that specialized in the fly and caught some very big fish in waters that generally demand very small flies. One of the reason the fly is so good is that it fishes well dry, damp or wet. Willi

Help me out here. Isn’t the Rio Grande Trude basically a Royal Trude with out the red thread on the body? If so I keep several of those in my fly box. The Royal Trude is my favorite fly on my favorite stream. However, if the fishies are being fussy and not taking it, I will try the Rio Grande (or at least what I am thinking is Rio Grande) and sometimes I will start catching fish with it. It seems odd to me that that small of a change in the fly (no red body thread) will make that much difference. Also, if they are taking the Royal they won’t touch the Rio Grande. Russell

Response:

"pittendrigh" < George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to It was funny.  In fact, thanks George. I needed that.

Sorry, I can’t help myself here Sandy… was it the telling you needed or did you actually do it and discover you needed it? c):-) Clark

Response:

  Very interesting.  Peacock herl is fascinating stuff.  There are many   materials with a vast range of uses in fly tying, but peacock herl is a   true standout among them.  It is the only material I know of which   virtually guarantees that flies incorporating it will catch   fish……there’s just something magic about it.  I have never   encountered a fly using peacock herl that is not a good fish catcher.     That said, I find it a bit odd to see it in a dry fly.  Herl, by its   very nature, floats like a brick.  Unlike many feathers, it is not the   least bit hydrophobic…..quite the contrary, it wicks up water so   effectively that it is difficult to make it float, even with the best of   floatants.     Never having seen this fly in action, I would suspect that the wing   stays on the surface while the body is submerged.  While this sort of   arrangement often makes it hard to keep a fly floating at all, thus   causing no end of frustration, it is often VERY appealing to fish.  My   own favorite Pass Lake works on the same principle.  I tie it with a   chenille body (equally problematic in dry flies) which will occasionally   allow the fly to sit on the surface for a short while but inevitably   causes the entire body to sink through the meniscus, leaving the wing   (at best) to keep the whole damned thing from sinking.  Both trout and   panfish frequently find this irresistible. My guess is that the fly Harry posted is going to float LESS well than your Pass Lake. CDC does float but not well enough to hold the weight of a soaked peacock body. Like you stated through, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. There’s an old Western pattern, The Rio Grande Trude, that’s VERY similar to your Pass Lake. It was somewhat of a standard some twenty years ago, but you seldom see it anymore. There was a guy that specialized in the fly and caught some very big fish in waters that generally demand very small flies. One of the reason the fly is so good is that it fishes well dry, damp or wet. Willi

Response:

Yeah you’re right, I over reacted and apologize to Sandy.

Not necessary, and not a problem. I did say "it’s interesting how ideas get invented multiple times," didn’t I? Anyway, if you want to play on the internet it helps to have a thick skin. Words come right off the tips of people’s fingertips, and, as such, are easily interpreted in multiple, unintended ways.   George somebody (can’t remember his last name) once told me to It was funny.  In fact, thanks George. I needed that.

Response:

I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ This is a fly I’ve been tying for years. It’s an attempt an anatomically more accurate version of the Troth Elk Hair Caddis. This fly does lie flat to the water, like a real caddis fly. And I enjoy tying it. Does it catch more fish than an Elk Hair Caddis? I can’t honestly say yes. It certainly does just as well however, and it floats like a cork.   There is something about horizontally oriented parachute hackles that does a better job of floating a dry fly than traditional hackles. http://montana-riverboats.com/pages/pages.php?page_title=FlatCaddis

Response:

I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’

I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I also tie the wing slightly longer than normal. When tied that way, the fly rides the water "full of life" and you can easily give the fly some lifelike action which I think is often a trigger for fish. I also fish an EHC with no hackle at all. It floats reasonably well when totally dry but is most effective down in the film or slightly sunken. Willi

Response:

I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best.

I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC.  I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me.  Anybody? Wolfgang

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC.  I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me.  Anybody? Wolfgang

 I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and  his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and  Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite Harry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC.  I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me.  Anybody? Wolfgang  I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and  his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and  Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite

The above patterns are similar to the Flat Caddis Pittendrigh described. The pattern I was describing may have a name, but it evolved for me from a pattern described by Wright that from what I remember, he called a Skittering or Fluttering Caddis. He used spade hackle tips for the wings (some other tiers used mink hairs) that were tied in in three bunches. These materials are hard to get and the wing was hard to tie "right" so the fly would have action and good flotation. I substituted elk/deer hair for the wing. Over time, I lengthened the wing and used more turns of hackle but with a hackle one size smaller than "usual." This makes for a fly that skitters and hops on the surface very easily. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC.  I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me.  Anybody? Wolfgang  I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and  his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and  Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite The above patterns are similar to the Flat Caddis Pittendrigh described. The pattern I was describing may have a name, but it evolved for me from a pattern described by Wright that from what I remember, he called a Skittering or Fluttering Caddis. He used spade hackle tips for the wings (some other tiers used mink hairs) that were tied in in three bunches. These materials are hard to get and the wing was hard to tie "right" so the fly would have action and good flotation. I substituted elk/deer hair for the wing. Over time, I lengthened the wing and used more turns of hackle but with a hackle one size smaller than "usual." This makes for a fly that skitters and hops on the surface very easily. Willi

I’ve been tying caddis in this style for nearly twenty years and the idea was not original.  It was taught to me by the Malignant Dwarf who, if memory serves, learned it from someone else when he began twenty or more years before.   Sorry Harry, but what I’m thinking of (and what I believe Willi is describing) doesn’t look much like either of the flies on the pages you cited. Wolfgang

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just made a new set of step-by-step tying instructions for the world famous ‘Flat Caddis’ I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC.  I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me.  Anybody? Wolfgang

I’ve always heard them called Skittering Caddis.  There is a version at http://www.hawkeyeflyfishing.com/Fly_patterns/Drys/D15.html  ,though the version I prefer has no palmered hackle on the body, but a dense short conventional hackle in front of the wing. BTW I have used a larger version of this fly  (light wire size 6 salmon/steelhead hook) to good effect on steelhead this time of year – also effective on trout during the October Caddis hatch Bob Weinberger

Response:

"William Loehman/Susan Schwarz" I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I also tie the wing slightly longer than normal. When tied that way, the fly rides the water "full of life" and you can easily give the fly some lifelike action which I think is often a trigger for fish. I also fish an EHC with no hackle at all. It floats reasonably well when totally dry but is most effective down in the film or slightly sunken.

I like similar styles and particularly like an EHC with a cdc hackle instead of the traditional. Very effective on spring creeks. Clark

Response:

I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and  his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and  Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite Harry

Hello Harry: Yes, those flies are interesting: basically the same fly as mine. My proportions are different, and I don’t bother with a dubbed body, but basically it’s the same. Every idea seems to get invented multiple times. I got email from an historian the other day (among other things, he’s tracking down a reference to flies taken along on the Lewis and Clark expedition). Anyway one thing led to another. I mentioned to him I first showed the Flat Caddis to Gary LaFontaine in 1981, at a fly fishing demonstration Gary put on at Dave Kumlein’s Bozeman Orvis shop. Gary liked that fly, and offered to ‘help me get it published.’ In retrospect, I was a fool not to take him up on that.

Response:

Your right I was looking at the  Pittendrigh  pattern…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also like this fly better than a traditional EHC but I like an EHC with no hackle in the body and a traditional hackle, full but slightly undersized, best. I’ve always like the pattern you describe too, Willi, but I’ve never thought of it as simply a variant EHC.  I’m pretty sure it has a name of its own but that name escapes me.  Anybody? Wolfgang  I think this style was first made popular by Ralph Cutter and  his e/c caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=e/c and  Bob Brooks Headlight caddis http://www.troutflies.com/go.mv?ID=headlite The above patterns are similar to the Flat Caddis Pittendrigh described. The pattern I was describing may have a name, but it evolved for me from a pattern described by Wright that from what I remember, he called a Skittering or Fluttering Caddis. He used spade hackle tips for the wings (some other tiers used mink hairs) that were tied in in three bunches. These materials are hard to get and the wing was hard to tie "right" so the fly would have action and good flotation. I substituted elk/deer hair for the wing. Over time, I lengthened the wing and used more turns of hackle but with a hackle one size smaller than "usual." This makes for a fly that skitters and hops on the surface very easily. Willi I’ve been tying caddis in this style for nearly twenty years and the idea was not original.  It was taught to me by the Malignant Dwarf who, if memory serves, learned it from someone else when he began twenty or more years before.   Sorry Harry, but what I’m thinking of (and what I believe Willi is describing) doesn’t look much like either of the flies on the pages you cited. Wolfgang

Response:

  Anyway one thing led to another. I mentioned to him I first showed   the Flat Caddis to Gary LaFontaine in 1981, at a fly fishing demonstration   Gary put on at Dave Kumlein’s Bozeman Orvis shop. Gary liked that fly,   and offered to ‘help me get it published.’   In retrospect, I was a fool not to take him up on that. IMO, it just a matter of marketing in terms of how a "new" fly name gets recognized and is largely just an ego thing. It seems to me that it is the person responsible for making a particular pattern popular that gets the naming "right", not necessarily the "first" person to tie it. IMO, there are very few unique flies that come out. Most are just minor variations. With the number of tiers out there, virtually all of these variations have been tried by some tiers. Not to criticize your pattern, but I find it highly unlikely that you were the first person to use the elk hair tag as a post for a parachute. Actually, I could give a shit and would be happy to call it the pittendrigh flat wing caddis. Your reaction reminds me of Andy Kim becoming pissed off because other people were using a thread body for their midge nymphs and calling them something other than "Yong" something. Willi

Response:

  Your right I was looking at the  Pittendrigh  pattern…. how ’bout   this one?   http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml That’s the right "style". I like a skinnier body, shorter denser hackle and a longer wing. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gary put on at Dave Kumlein’s Bozeman Orvis shop. Gary liked that fly, and offered to ‘help me get it published.’ In retrospect, I was a fool not to take him up on that. Your reaction reminds me of Andy Kim becoming pissed off because other people were using a thread body for their midge nymphs and calling them something other than "Yong" something. Willi, I’ve never read that sort of atitude into Sandy’s posts, and don’t really see it in this one. Sandy puts up detailed patterns and tying instructions for basically altruistic reasons (as far as I can tell). I have always appreciated his posts and his ROFF presence. To me his comment above was a simple honest statement of having had a chance to accept help from a very well-known person and for some reason passing it up.

Yeah you’re right, I over reacted and apologize to Sandy. I also value his input here and on ROFFT and think that he does have some very innovative ideas especially in his use of foam. I was on Andy Kim’s website the other night and read his rants and……. The naming of flies and credit for designing them has always seemed like   a weird thing to me. It seems to me to be more fame or ego or money or advertising related than substance. There are very few truly new patterns. Most are just SLIGHT modifications of other patterns being used. EVERY tier that has been tying for any length of time routinely ties his own patterns whether purposeful or inadvertent. Few patterns remain true to the original. More significant to me is when someone comes up with the idea for incorporating new materials into a fly or coming up with new techniques for tying or creating a new style of fly. But who knows who was the first person to use CDC on a fly or beadheads or foam or epoxy or who was the first to use a parachute hackle or dubbing twist or ……. If some famous person in the golden retriever world liked your work and offered to put a plug in for you, wouldn’t you feel the same way?  

No Willi

Response:

…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml

Yep, that’s the one I had in mind.  Interesting body in the photo.  Herl? Wolfgang

Response:

Here is a variation using CDC http://www.troutflies.com/rofft/cdc/downwing.shtml – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Your right I was looking at the  Pittendrigh  pattern…. how ’bout   this one?   http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml That’s the right "style". I like a skinnier body, shorter denser hackle and a longer wing. Willi

Response:

Here is a variation using CDC http://www.troutflies.com/rofft/cdc/downwing.shtml

Tie that in black and you just might have a winner for the Bighorn.

Response:

I do tie it in black, I would show you ‘cepting my new DC has not made it to my door. I made the mistake of buying it over the net from what c/net describes as 4 star rated seller(good rating). I did get one after 10 days, plugged  it in and the LED read "system error". The manual says send back to Nikon if this error shows up. Back to the seller it went…now they tell me all of the Nikons they have are defective… I  asked for my money back after three weeks of  hassles and BS. I do not believe a thing these dudes say now , pity I have spent hula bucks with them in the past. No more, the sales manager would not even return my calls. BuyRiteDigital….beware – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is a variation using CDC http://www.troutflies.com/rofft/cdc/downwing.shtml Tie that in black and you just might have a winner for the Bighorn.

Response:

…. how ’bout this one? http://www.troutflies.com/pictures/flys/spent_caddis/spent_caddis.shtml Yep, that’s the one I had in mind.  Interesting body in the photo.  Herl? Wolfgang

Yep that be herl… you should reinforce the stuff though, rope it, or a thread rib. I find this bug works well on the Yellowstone for some reason. Cutts eat it, but then, they eat lots of things most of the time

Response:

…..Herl? Yep that be herl… you should reinforce the stuff though, rope it, or a thread rib. I find this bug works well on the Yellowstone for some reason. Cutts eat it, but then, they eat lots of things most of the time

Very interesting.  Peacock herl is fascinating stuff.  There are many materials with a vast range of uses in fly tying, but peacock herl is a true standout among them.  It is the only material I know of which virtually guarantees that flies incorporating it will catch fish……there’s just something magic about it.  I have never encountered a fly using peacock herl that is not a good fish catcher. That said, I find it a bit odd to see it in a dry fly.  Herl, by its very nature, floats like a brick.  Unlike many feathers, it is not the least bit hydrophobic…..quite the contrary, it wicks up water so effectively that it is difficult to make it float, even with the best of floatants. Never having seen this fly in action, I would suspect that the wing stays on the surface while the body is submerged.  While this sort of arrangement often makes it hard to keep a fly floating at all, thus causing no end of frustration, it is often VERY appealing to fish.  My own favorite Pass Lake works on the same principle.  I tie it with a chenille body (equally problematic in dry flies) which will occasionally allow the fly to sit on the surface for a short while but inevitably causes the entire body to sink through the meniscus, leaving the wing (at best) to keep the whole damned thing from sinking.  Both trout and panfish frequently find this irresistible. Wolfgang

Response:

Question:

I live 20 miles southeast of dayton and trying to find some streams or rivers to fish for trout if possible since i’m still new to fly fishing , I have only been in the lakes and ponds fishing for bass and bluegill .   So far I have found alot of areas to fish for bass, bluegill and carp but not one trout yet , any info would help and would be appreciated .

Response:

What’s the first rank after tenderfoot? Well, anyhow, having just gotten beyond that myself, let me be the first to chastise you for not doing a simple search….you might have discovered these links… http://www.state.oh.us/agr/trout.html http://www.activedayton.com/community/groups/mvff/Stream_Reports.html http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/odnr/wildlife/fishing/fairport/page6.html http://www.fishohio.net/ http://home.att.net/~tumadmen/Links/links.html http://www.flyshop.com/Centers/Midwest/7-98Mad/ http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/odnr/wildlife/fishing/ http://home.att.net/~jorgeddr/fish.htm ..but then we all learn don’t we? And one thing you’ll learn is that it is a popular misconception is that fly fishing means trout. Granted the two go hand in hand, particular in mountain streams where fly fishing lends itself much more readily to the circumstances. For trout, it’s but a few hours to the Smokies, or even West Virginia if you wish to get away a little bit. Ohio is not exactly a trout fisherman’s paradise but they can be found…… I figure you have to be down around Ceasars Creek somewhere. Now, I pounded many a fruitless hour on the distant streams while learning how to fish for trout (spooky little devils they are) when I should have been fishing my local waters…for smallmouth bass. Brush Creek, the Little Miami, Ceasars creek from the spillway to the Little Miami, any of the roller dams on the Miami are productive and I like the Miami above Dayton in particular. The upper Mad is good for trout and the lower Mad is dynamite for smallmouth bass…..yes these streams are smallmouth bass streams. Smallmouth are the dominate fish here in Ohio. Don’t ignore good fishing just because you have a flyrod and think that you *have* to fish for trout.  I fish for all species of fish, using a flyrod exclusively, not using a flyrod exclusively for trout….

Response:

I live 20 miles southeast of dayton and trying to find some streams or rivers to fish for trout if possible since i’m still new to fly fishing , I have only been in the lakes and ponds fishing for bass and bluegill .   So far I have found alot of areas to fish for bass, bluegill and carp but not one trout yet , any info would help and would be appreciated .

Just catching up on ROFF and noticed your post. You can get trout in the Mad River above Urbana off RT 68.  Go up there about 8-12 miles past Urbana and take one of many township roads that go left and cross over the Mad.  It is about 20-30 ft wide in this area and does hold trout in the smaller size range, mostly under 10 in.  They are a wary bunch and difficult to catch but they are there.  There is a certain hole up there that holds a number of over 12 in trout on a regular basis but I can’t remember off hand what the crossroad is, but could possibly look it up in my Ohio Gazetteer map which at this moment is in my truck, four floors down from my condo in Florida.  If you are going up there I could probably try to find that little mark on the map for you, let me know. Also,  try   http://www.madriveroutfitters.com/   They guide up there on a regular basis. Regards,  Jim McCreary

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s the first rank after tenderfoot? Well, anyhow, having just gotten beyond that myself, let me be the first to chastise you for not doing a simple search….you might have discovered these links… http://www.state.oh.us/agr/trout.html http://www.activedayton.com/community/groups/mvff/Stream_Reports.html http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/odnr/wildlife/fishing/fairport/page6.html http://www.fishohio.net/ http://home.att.net/~tumadmen/Links/links.html http://www.flyshop.com/Centers/Midwest/7-98Mad/ http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/odnr/wildlife/fishing/ http://home.att.net/~jorgeddr/fish.htm ..but then we all learn don’t we? And one thing you’ll learn is that it is a popular misconception is that fly fishing means trout. Granted the two go hand in hand, particular in mountain streams where fly fishing lends itself much more readily to the circumstances. For trout, it’s but a few hours to the Smokies, or even West Virginia if you wish to get away a little bit. Ohio is not exactly a trout fisherman’s paradise but they can be found…… I figure you have to be down around Ceasars Creek somewhere. Now, I pounded many a fruitless hour on the distant streams while learning how to fish for trout (spooky little devils they are) when I should have been fishing my local waters…for smallmouth bass. Brush Creek, the Little Miami, Ceasars creek from the spillway to the Little Miami, any of the roller dams on the Miami are productive and I like the Miami above Dayton in particular. The upper Mad is good for trout and the lower Mad is dynamite for smallmouth bass…..yes these streams are smallmouth bass streams. Smallmouth are the dominate fish here in Ohio. Don’t ignore good fishing just because you have a flyrod and think that you *have* to fish for trout.  I fish for all species of fish, using a flyrod exclusively, not using a flyrod exclusively for trout….

gawdangit john, if feasible, yer ugly mug would be most welcome to accompany my equally, if not more so hideous self on a trout stream or two… or three. ya know the place, ya know da number… –waldo

Response:

Question:

Got into Boiling Springs around 8:00 and decided to try the easy access to Yellow Breeches at the Allenberry Playhouse.  Turns out Joe Humphreys was having a FF school, starting that very night, through Sunday noon.  Well, I’m a Joe Humphreys "fan" I guess you could say, having met him a couple times and read his book and liked what I got out of it.  Ed Shenk was teaching with him (originator of the Letort Cricket, Letort Hopper, Shenk’s Sculpin, etc.)  About 120 years of experience there.  Even though I thought it was kind of pricey ($365) and I had already missed a couple hours, I decided to sign up on a whim.  My "review" of the school is a mixed one, as is my opinion of the stream (keep in mind this is the first time I ever fished there, and only a small stretch at that.) The catch and release stretch behind Allenberry gets unbelievable pressure.  At least I’m not used to that much pressure.  Friday evening there were about 8 people in sight within a hundred yard stretch or so.  They were flailing the water, but I never saw anyone catch anything.  This is a well stocked area by the way.  They were getting record heat, and the water temp was up to about 70, despite the cold spring flow from Boiling Springs.  Well, Joe walks out into the middle of all that to demo to us: "This is how you fish a wet fly", and he pulls out 2 trout in 10 minutes.  "This is how you fish a nymph", and pulls out 3 trout in 15 more minutes.  I guess the other fishermen are used to seeing that because no one raised an eyebrow.  Looked easy enough to me. Class was supposed to start 8:00 the next morning (at the breakfast table – not enough fishing time for me!)  So I got on the stream at 6:15 and fished the same area he did, with nymphs.  I was not alone, but had some elbow room.  By 8:00 I had caught 4, as well as foul hooked 2 more, which tells me they really must have been stacked in some of those feeding lanes.  These were stocked fish of about 9-11".  I thought it would be an easy weekend to fish (boy was I wrong.)  When I left, the stream was packed again. To make a long story short about the class, Joe and Ed are obviously good and experienced fishermen.  They went over all the stuff you would think, and with the obvious problems.  There were 5 beginners (4 had never cast a fly rod), and 3 of us who had fished at least a year.  The 3 of us had to hear a lot of things we already knew, while the raw beginners didn’t get the intro on some topics they needed.  While Ed was showing blood knots for tying tippet to leader, someone would lean over and ask me what a tippet was.  While Joe was talking about terrestrial dries, someone would ask me if they were called terrestrials because they float on the surface instead of sink. On the other hand, some of the casting and just plain fishing information was very informative in a sort of piecemeal way.  They each brought their own unique ideas on how to do things, and it didn’t always jibe with the traditional, popular ways.  Part of the fun was eating meals and just hanging out with these guys, and hearing stories, etc.  e.g. Joe mentioned that sometimes trout are right or left hand feeders.  Ed gave him shit about the "one-eyed trout".  Seems Joe had some students at a stream obsrerving a trout feeding to one side.  He explained why it might feed only to that side because of various conditions, and he cast to the other side repeatedly and couldn’t catch it.  Then he cast to the correct side, and hooked and landed it.  When showing the trout, it turns out it’s left eye was injured and completely blind.  I learned Joe used to coach wrestling, and I used to wrestle.  As we walked away from the table once he went to put his hand on my shoulder, and as a joke I threw in an arm lock.  He immediately wrenched me right back and said "You’ll never get it."  I got the distinct impression he could have ground me into the mat.  Not bad for a 71 year old guy.  Ed guides the area streams, such as the Letort (for a very reasonable rate by the way) and said we could give him a call if we wanted to go sometime.  I asked if he had an email address, at which point he called me "one of those wiseass computer guys."  (he does not have email, but email me and I’ll give you his phone number if you think you’d like to hire him.)  When I would make a bad double haul, Joe said he was gonna kick my ass.  Point being, they seemed to know what kind of ribbing each person could take, as each person seemed to feel like they got treated well by them in terms of instruction.  They were much gentler to the newbies Joe seems to have a competitive attitude toward fishing.  He considers every set of conditions a challenge, and he fishes with raw determination and will power when "the chips are down".  As I alluded to earlier, the fishing was tough.  Other than Joe and Ed, I only saw a few fish caught that weekend. Those fish were tough.  The highlight for me was fishing for about 2 hours on Sunday with various dries without getting so much as a look from a fish.  Joe took 3 of us fishing down the stream and it turned into us basically looking over his shoulder as he fished.  He really worked every pocket, every cast.  He caught 3 fish in 45 minutes, and 2 really left an impression on me.  The last one I never even saw, and I don’t know how he found it, but once he showed us we could just *barely* see it.  He could not raise the fish with about 10 drifts.  He said "You wanna see how to catch a fish like that?"  He cut off the dry and tied on a grey scud.  His cast was perfect the first time, about 3 feet ahead of the fish *directly* in its lane.  I never saw the fish take it, and neither did the other 2 guys, so we were surprised when he set the hook.  Yet he hooked it square inside the jaw.  That’s just one example we saw, but after having watched him for the weekend, I think the guy can just flat out *fish*. At one point during this period, we counted FIFTEEN other fishermen within view.  I really can’t say I cared much for this stream.  So much hard work for very fished over, finicky fish that when all was said and done were still just 8-12" stocked fish.  Again, I’m just talking about a quarter mile or so stretch at the Allenberry, and maybe other stretches would be better.  Also, as I said the water temps were getting up there and maybe the fish were just getting a bit stressed.  If it hadn’t been for my early morning jaunt I wouldn’t have caught a fish.  In fact only 1 guy (or maybe 2) in the group did, and I don’t think that’s a very good introduction for beginners.  On the other hand, the accomodations and food and easy stream access were pluses. As I left town, I stopped in the Yellow Breeches Fly Shop.  I thought this was a very nice shop, and the 2 guys in there were very helpful and personable. They also had a very impressive book collection – the biggest I’ve ever seen in one store, in fact.  I added a few to my collection – "In the Ring of the Rise" is of course a classic, and a couple chapters were what I expected, but that sure is a strange book.  Also got a nice Montana guide and map book (one more month!) Regards, Jeff

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Yellow Breeches, PA and Allenberry FF school report

hello- please e-mail direct for some advice on trout streams near Allenberry where there is little or no pressure and lots of trout. A day after the stocking truck leaves, and the truck followers leave, the streams are mostly wide open.Cumberland county (Allenberry) has lots of mountain streams and lots of good fishing.I’d be pleased to give out info.

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Got into Boiling Springs around 8:00 and decided to try the easy access to Yellow Breeches at the Allenberry Playhouse.  Turns out Joe Humphreys was

Very nice report again. Keep them coming Jeff. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de "

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I’ve fished two weekends with Joe Humphreys, trying to catch the Green Drake hatch on Pine Creek.  He’s not a startling distance caster.  But he is amazing with placement, on the water and around obstacles.  And he is beyond compare with tight line nymphing, which takes care of 90% of a trout’s diet.   In a place (Cedar Run?) where I had caught two little native Brook Trout, one still with parr marks, by approaching a little pool on my knees, he banged in three casts and took two 9" Brookies and a 14" Brown.   He did it by casting under a branch from more than 25 feet away, landing at the foot of the pool twice in the feeding lanes of trout that had spooked away when I approached the pool and then casting another 5 feet up the pool against a ledge where the dominant trout in the pool was hiding.  In an area where I couldn’t find room for a 15 foot backcast. On the Yellow Breeches, Herb Weigel of Cold Spring Anglers (717-245-2646) guided me into 5 or 6 well conditioned, bright colored holdovers or stockers while the rest of the assembly line of flyfishers in the special regulations area seemed to be coming up dry.  Bright dot midge dry fly.  I found the experience gratifying (I looked like I knew what I was doing) but I’d rather spook a merganser on a lesser stream than hit a crowd of fellow fishers. My 2 cents worth. GKT

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Question:

Hi there, Flyfisherman here from West Springfield.  I do a little tying as well….fish the Westfield mostly because it is so handy but would be interested in venturing to other rivers. Paul

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Paul, Western Mass Fly Fishermen meet the third Monday of each month (Sept – May) at the Polish American Citizen’s Club on East Street in Ludlow. Meetings start with a tying demo at 7:00 PM. Free tying classes start in January and last 8 weeks. They are held on Thursday nights. Watch this NG for the starting date. There are several members from West Side and Feeding Hills, and the greater Springfield area. You could call me at 413-283-5543 if you need more info. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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i recently got in to fly fishing and tying not a pro yet butt working on it! always selling  cards, for a list of your fav team go to paul

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Paul: If you want to meet some local fly fishers, come to the TU meeting on January 11 at 7PM at the Elks Lodge in West Spfld (on Morgan Road). We’re having our annual fly tying Extravaganza in January – there will be several great local tyers plus a couple of supply vendors.  We will be running tying classes starting in a couple of weeks.  Also, the next Monday is the Western Mass Fly Fishers meeting in Ludlow.  Maybe George Adams will pipe in with directions.  They also run tying classes every winter (for free – a super deal).  Lots of good people in both groups. Hope to see you there. –Stan

i recently got in to fly fishing and tying not a pro yet butt working on it!

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Question:

Need some advice/info on traveling to Alaska. Very personal reasons for needing the info, I will give reasons via email to those of you I trust, for what that’s worth on this forum. Am looking for best times/places to go, best scenery, perhaps chartering a boat off the shore. Thanx. Mike

Response:

Need some advice/info on traveling to Alaska. Very personal reasons for needing the info, I will give reasons via email to those of you I trust, for what that’s worth on this forum. Am looking for best times/places to go, best scenery, perhaps chartering a boat off the shore. Thanx. Mike

Early spring BEFORE the mosquito hoards hatch!  Watched 2 guys on ETV fishing a pristine river in Alaska in their hip boots and fly fishing gear.  I bet some Alaska tourista bureaucrat lost his job over that video for NOT making damn sure they hosed down the mosquitoes before they started filming.  The mosquitoes were SO THICK trying to eat the cameraman you could hardly see the fishermen in front of the lens 25 ft. Bring Skin-So-Soft.  Lots of it. Larry.

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Mike, (no smart ass intended here), to charter a boat big enough to be safe and comfortable in the Gulf of Alaska you will need to be able to establish prior operating experience on a boat just a little larger than the one you currently own. Not saying you don’t have such experience, just that it will be important. Charter companies can and do say "no, sorry" on a regular basis if there is no prior experience on a similar sized boat. How far north would you be taking the boat? Some members of our YC made the trip last summer in a 33 ft Bayliner and they went all the way to Glacier Bay…. (but!)…they took four months to do it and were willing to sit out the cranky weather for several days at a time when neccesary (it often was) in order to wait for more reasonable conditions. Probably not a luxury you’d have on a charter cruise, though. Whatever takes you to AK, hope it’s a positive thing. Chuck Gould Float and let float.

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Question:

Hi everybody, I am an Italian brand new member of AOPA USA with an FAA PPL license. I am actually planning a flying journey in the Western states with a friend of mine. I will take off from Los Angeles on next July 1st and the goal is to fly northbound through Central and Northern California, Oregon, Washington State, Seattle, up to Vancouver and back to LAX. The trip will last no more than 16 days, and it

Question:

Why is anyone bothering to answer questions about catfish BAIT? This is FLYFISHING. We don’t use BAIT.

Response:

I have found that a ball of chicken liver on a medium size treble hook works well in most situations.

BBBbbbbbbut chicken liver flies right off the hook when you’re fly fishing.  Fresh pork skin is the best way for the fly fisherman —  * Center for Computational Biology  * Montana State Bozeman  (406) 994-7061  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy */

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Hey…. Martha Stuart of Flyfishing <g <g <g Yuk Yuk Yuk !!! Are you still using the Hot Glue gun to tie your flies (I just came across your article from the Disco era) ?. I (obviously) found it amusing as hell….sorry…<g I also saw your foam nymphs in the Umpqua book…congratulations… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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We don’t use BAIT.

Gary C. "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

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Why is anyone bothering to answer questions about catfish BAIT? This is FLYFISHING. We don’t use BAIT.

    Some of us not only flyfish, but on occasion I personally enjoy sitting down on the old river bank and do some bait chucking while relaxing on a lawn chair…..     For catties, a ball of Valetta cheese works pretty good.  Nothing however beats the good old nightcrawler though for catching the greatest variety of all fish in local streams, lakes, and rivers…..     I guess I should thank who started this thread, the water is a little unwadeable at my favorite flyfishing stream, maybe I’ll have to get my spinning outfits out today and grab a can of worms and go drown some worms this weekend ) –Randy

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Beginning angler, need advice: What would be best live/artificial Baits to catch Catfish & Bass? What should be the best locations in the streams (no current, fast current, ponds, depths, etc…) where Catfish or Bass are concentrated? Thank you very much indeed.

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Brian, I haven’t done alot of catfishing but I ran across a guy the other day and he said he uses a product called junnies (do a search on the web). he said he bought the stuff off the internet and that a catfish guide told him about it he stated that the guide had the maker come fishing with him and they caught 10 to 1 (maker vs. guide). I do alot of creek fishing and catch alot of bass. I use a lure by rebel called a creek hopper. On a good day I catch and relese about 30 (1/2lb to 1 1/2lds) bass and no telling how many sunfish. you can also check: <A HREF="http:www.tn-outdoors.comtn-outdoors.com</A for other fishing and hunting articles. happy fishing Larry

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I have found that a ball of chicken liver on a medium size treble hook works well in most situations. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beginning angler, need advice: What would be best live/artificial Baits to catch Catfish & Bass? What should be the best locations in the streams (no current, fast current, ponds, depths, etc…) where Catfish or Bass are concentrated? Thank you very much indeed.

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I have a question:  how do you get the chicken livers to stay on the hook.  I got some fresh chicken livers to use for bait and they were the consistancy of mush.  I would have had a better chance of trying to put grape jelly on the hook.  I have heard you can freeze them but this seems like a messy job.   Any suggestions you can give would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have found that a ball of chicken liver on a medium size treble hook works well in most situations. Beginning angler, need advice: What would be best live/artificial Baits to catch Catfish & Bass? What should be the best locations in the streams (no current, fast current, ponds, depths, etc…) where Catfish or Bass are concentrated? Thank you very much indeed.

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Question:

I am an avid fly fisher doin’ cold turkey in Hong Kong, but am planning a trip to New Zealand, Tauranga/Rotorua/Taupo area for about a week in a camper van at the end of October with my 2 young lads. Any info on locations, flies, tactics, anything would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Adam J. Marr

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I am an avid fly fisher doin’ cold turkey in Hong Kong, but am planning a trip to New Zealand, Tauranga/Rotorua/Taupo area for about a week in a camper van at the end of October with my 2 young lads. Any info on locations, flies, tactics, anything would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Adam J. Marr

Adam: Check out Anglers Paradise in Turangi. John and Val  Milner have retired now, but the new owbners would help. Sporting Life in Turangi is THE place to get info and tackle. Graham has fished the Tongiriro all of his life.  ****  THE BEST **** guide in the Turangi area is Tim Mcarthy. His father was a guide (still is, I believe), but Tim is, in the opinion of MANY of the locals as well, THE BEST guide. Use his services for ONE DAY, and you will learn the pools and what catches fish. I spent 9 months fishing that river and Lake Taupo, and it’s a WONDERFUL experience. Don’t forget to bring your "winter woolies"; ice can form on the guides this time of year, but the fishing is SUPERB in June and August. After all, the NZ fish are transplanted Oregon WINTER STEELHEAD. Enjoy your trip. I wish I was going with you !!   Regards de Mikey !!

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Question:

Hi: Wasn’t able to make my Belize trip this spring and I’m affraid of the variable weather conditions in the Fall, so I’m thinking about Christmas Is.  I like Belize because of the opportunity to catch various species and the Belize River Lodge guides fish you to death, but I’ve never wade fished and they do say one should go to CI before they die.  What kind of weather conditions can one expect between September and November??? Thanks, Adam

It fishes well 12 months of the year and is 100% wading for bones. The Bahamas, Ascension Bay in Mexico,  Turneffe Flats in Belize and Los Roques in Venezuela are also great bonefish destinations. Belize River Lodge has some of the best tarpon fishing in Central America and also has 3 big boats to take you down south for permit. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Hi: Wasn’t able to make my Belize trip this spring and I’m affraid of the variable weather conditions in the Fall, so I’m thinking about Christmas Is.  I like Belize because of the opportunity to catch various species and the Belize River Lodge guides fish you to death, but I’ve never wade fished and they do say one should go to CI before they die.  What kind of weather conditions can one expect between September and November??? Thanks, Adam

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Question:

I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track?

Hello Bob, We are all curious as to how you did.  If you caught one then you confirm the truism that sometimes a first time beginner can walk up to a river and catch a steelhead. Back to reality, our winter run steelhead are a very difficult quarry. They usually move quickly through the short lower sections where fishing is allowed.  Even if you can find them, you can pass a fly right in front of their nose time after time without provoking a response, although sometimes they will bite. And in many years like this one, the water isn’t clear enough for flies for months. They are a lot easier to catch on roe, but as a fly fisher I don’t find that very satisfying. I recommend you try the fall run on the Klamath and its tributaries, in late September or October.  They bite flies much more readily and often hold in riffles where fly fishers have an advantage. Good luck, Mark Vinsel

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Yes, that will work, but just remember, like with big trout, you must put the fly in front of their nose.  It might take something like a heavily weighted stonefly nymph to do the trick.  The rod wt. is OK, I have landed steelhead on my Orvis Western Spring Creek 4 wt.  If i am targeting steelhead though, I usually take a 6 or 7.  A fly I’ve had luck with on small strams that are ahallow and clear where you and the fish can see each other, is a Black Diamond (first tyed in Black Diamond, Washington).  If you’re interested and can’t find the pattern, give a yell – be glad to provide it. Burton Hawley, Corvallis, OR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I’m an experienced flyfisher, I really don’t know anything about flyfishing for steelhead.  What are the best tactics and flies to use for steelhead?  What is the best equipment and setup?  I have 7wt equipment.  Is this sufficient? I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track? Thanks Bob Moss Landing, Ca.

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Lots of good books on the topic, especially Advanced Steelhead Flyfishing that seems to focus on your area.  Flies are typically bright streamers and wild marabou patterns, though some folks prefer to fish darker flies that actually look like something alive.  Salmon egg patterns are used alot. Typical tactic is to flip it out 45 degrees to current and drift, pulling line in to cover water completely before moving a few steps.  Floating line is common(specail steelhead line is flaoting and designed for winter usage), sometimes with longer leaders with heavy flys to sink. Monofilament shock obsorbers are common as well.  So much has been written, I couldn’t do it justice.  Like most new water, its probably good to get a guide. Tom      

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Although I’m an experienced flyfisher, I really don’t know anything about flyfishing for steelhead.  What are the best tactics and flies to use for steelhead?  What is the best equipment and setup?  I have 7wt equipment.  Is this sufficient? I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track? Thanks Bob Moss Landing, Ca.

Response:

Yes you are.  I would suggest you get a copy of both Dry Line Steelhead by Bill McMillan and Greased Line Fishing for Salmon (and Steelhead) by Jock Scott.  They’re the bibles.

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