Question:

I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them. I was under the impression that brown trout tcan olerate higher water temperatures than can rainbows. Isn’t that so? I’ve read that browns can survive if the water temperature does not consistently exceed 70 degrees F.

You are correct, I was wrong about the browns.  Brown trout are the most tolerant of higher water temps by about 1 degree and can tolerate short-term peaks in temperature much better than other types of trout (such as after a warm summer downpour).  I talked to my grandfather about this post last night–he’s been a private hatchery owner since the late 1940s–and he brought up the pH level of the water.  I think he said that rainbows are more tolerant of acidic water than other species. Tom Before you buy.

Response:

I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them.  

I was under the impression that brown trout tcan olerate higher water temperatures than can rainbows. Isn’t that so? I’ve read that browns can survive if the water temperature does not consistently exceed 70 degrees F. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them. I was under the impression that brown trout tcan olerate higher water temperatures than can rainbows. Isn’t that so? I’ve read that browns can survive if the water temperature does not consistently exceed 70 degrees F.

I fish an area of my local river that I call transition water. Over about a five mile stretch, the river changes dramatically. At the uppermost part of this stretch, rainbows and browns are about equal in number and there are no warm water fishes. Further downstream, there are more browns than rainbows and there are a few carp as well as some warm water minnows. Toward the end of the transition area, there are lots of carp and warm water minnows plus a few VERY large browns. Finally, there are no trout left. Willi

Response:

I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long

Tim, My Uncle owns a private hatchery here in central PA.  One thing that you may not have considered is the tendency for rainbows to point their nose toward the sea and swim.  One tagged rainbow released into a trout stream here in PA was caught in the Susquehanna river in Maryland!  Not all rainbows will head immediately for the ocean, but you cannot really count on them to stay in the stretch of water you put them in, either. Rainbows swimming for the ocean are akin to throwing your money into the creek and watching it drift away. I don’t think that the water temps you stated will support brook or brown trout, so you may not have a lot of options, but rainbows may not stick around for you to catch them.  Some private hatcheries raise ‘tiger trout’–a sterile cross between a brook and a brown trout (kind of like a mule, I guess)–that doesn’t head downstream like a bullet and fights like the devil.  These ‘tiger trout’ may be able to tolerate the water temps you’ve got, and since you aren’t interested in reproduction they may be just the thing.  Obviously, the purists in the world would look down their noses at this suggestion but it is a possibility. Just trying to be helpful, Tom Before you buy.

Response:

Any time you want to come down your more than welcome…there are two real nice special reg areas within 20 miles of my land…I’m still confused by all the Waynes in the group, do you hail from Fredicksburg? Tim,wondering if theres a Carl’s to go, Long

Hey Tim!  I’m the REAL Wayne.  YES!! We have a Carl’s Ice Cream shop. It’s just closing down for the winter now but, rest assured, it will rise, like the proverbal phoenix, in the spring.  When the MWC coeds grace the warming rocks of the Rappahannock and the shad grace the planks of hickory, Carl’s ice cream shall flow again. — Wayne…now, where did you say those fish are? To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

because i am younger and better looking. wayno

Have you EVER known a lawyer to bend the truth! — Wayne (who is sometimes mistaken for Wayno’s son by comely youg things in public) To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

      well, you know how ol waldo will see double from time to time… I’d heard that<g. I may wander over his way next week if I get tired of looking for ol’ Eric up on Snowbird and Santeetlah… — Charlie…

jeez, guess i need to start worry’n ’bout these "senior moments"…. dang, he was so young. i’d still like to see the brothers wayne in the cottonwood brewery though <g waldo — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://users.boone.net/wgw/brbg.html

Response:

   well, you know how ol waldo will see double from time to time…

I’d heard that<g. I may wander over his way next week if I get tired of looking for ol’ Eric up on Snowbird and Santeetlah… — Charlie…

Response:

remember that ‘ole bob newhart tv show that had the thre brothers, darrell, darell, & darrell? I though only two were named Darrell? (The other was Larry?) — Charlie…

        well, you know how ol waldo will see double from time to time… wayno

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remember that ‘ole bob newhart tv show that had the thre brothers, darrell, darell, & darrell?

I though only two were named Darrell? (The other was Larry?) — Charlie…

Response:

Any time you want to come down your more than welcome…there are two real nice special reg areas within 20 miles of my land…I’m still confused by all the Waynes in the group, do you hail from Fredicksburg? Tim,wondering if theres a Carl’s to go, Long

        no, i am the north carolina wayne; "wayno", to be precise. you can tell me apart from the virginia "wayne" (hart) and the temporarily kansas "wayne" (knight) because i am younger and better looking. wayno

Response:

        no, i am the north carolina wayne; "wayno", to be precise. you can tell me apart from the virginia "wayne" (hart) and the temporarily kansas "wayne" (knight) because i am younger and better looking. wayno

wayno, remember that ‘ole bob newhart tv show that had the thre brothers, darrell, darell, & darrell? i swear ta gawd ya’ll are close enough in looks and stature that…. hart, knight, and you could walk into any dang bar, hell anywhere, and introduce yerselves as the brothers wayne, wayne, and wayno. lmao just thinkin’ bout it…. waldo

Response:

Umm…  do not know if your stream conditions support it, but eggs from suitable stock placed in hatch boxes or specially constructed spawning beds may produce more resilient stock than commercial hatchery produced specimens. For example stock taken directly from your stream could be reared in a small controlled hatchery such as those maintained under permit at local universities.  Eggs taken from your brood stock placed in hatch boxes or spawning beds in your stream could imprint the fish and restore quantities up to the level at which your stream’s habitat will support. This approach may qualify you for a TU "Bring Back The Natives" grant to cover part of your costs. Just a suggestion, you may contact the fisheries department of local universities, and fisheries biologists listed in your yellow pages for ideas or help and your local or national Trout Unlimited organizations for support.  By allowing your stream to be used to advance the science of fisheries, it would be appreciated by everyone involved; faculty, students, volunteers, biologists, neighbors and others. If you chose to do something like this, I would sincerely thank you, and the fish will too! John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels. I saved an article from a 1991 issue of trout titled "Saved By The Barriers" about the encroachment of rainbows on the brookies of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that you may find of interest. I think the successful barrier height to keep out rainbows was 6 ft. or so. If you send me your address I’ll send the article on to you. owned ponds. IF there is a chance, specified by the VDGIF, that any stocked fish (rainbows) have the opportunity to take over native waters then the permit is not issued and they strongly urge you not to mess with mother nature. My question is, what if I could find brookies to stock, would these same rules apply. VDGIF may be able to give you some insight as to whether the upper section has ever been stocked. If not and there was any chance of your stocked fish getting upstream then you might reconsider brookies. There probably are stocks of brook trout in Va. that escaped the fish bucket dumping craze and it would be a shame to intoduce outside stock to them. During Hoover’s day they even brought in New Hampshire brookies to stock the Rapidan with so I would suspect many other Virginia streams have a wide genetic mix of brookies as well.<G Before flyfishing, we (myself and some family) would buy 25-30 fish at a nearby pond, throw them in the "swimmin’ hole", bait up the kids poles and have a fish fry at the end of a long weekend. Now, I want to do it right, figure out numbers, size, the kind of things that are being discussed in this thread that would give them the best chance to live for as long as possible. As mentioned in my previous post, there are hold overs that I would think have lasted If the upper reaches of your stream are in any of the parks or federal land then I would suggest getting in touch with some of the local TU people to find out who the govt. fisheries biologist is for your area. From my experience with them years ago they are generally hard working, caring folks who really enjoy what they do (despite lousy pay) and would probably be willing to answer your questions and steer you in the right direction. close to two and a half years. (rainbows) NOTHING would make me happier than to be able to go to my own land, and trout fish, however if I thought I would screw up the native population I will never put another fish in. You are to be envied for both your stream and your prudent approach to the problem. Tim, not looking for reproduction,just a good time, Up until the last few years I thought that WAS a good time. Long Kiyu

Response:

I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long Before you buy.

Response:

The first consideration is that the stocking of exotic species in a free flowing stream is probably illegal, if not it should be. Check with your state’s fish and game agency. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long Before you buy.

Response:

 I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size?

        well, tim, you just let ol wayno help you with this troublesome dilemma…here’s the deal:  you put as many rainbows in that water as you can afford, from 10 to 18 inches.  brookies, i am advised, would not be happy for long with water over 65 degrees. then, you have me up for a long weekend once a month from now until the little devils are appropriately…identified.         wayno, always willing to help those in need

Response:

There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels.

If you live in Virginia there aren’t any native rainbows in your stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I didn’t mean rainbows,,,native around here automatically means brookies. Tim There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels. If you live in Virginia there aren’t any native rainbows in your stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Before you buy.

Response:

Any time you want to come down your more than welcome…there are two real nice special reg areas within 20 miles of my land…I’m still confused by all the Waynes in the group, do you hail from Fredicksburg? Tim,wondering if theres a Carl’s to go, Long – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size?    well, tim, you just let ol wayno help you with this troublesome dilemma…here’s the deal:  you put as many rainbows in that water as you can afford, from 10 to 18 inches.  brookies, i am advised, would not be happy for long with water over 65 degrees. then, you have me up for a long weekend once a month from now until the little devils are appropriately…identified.    wayno, always willing to help those in need

Before you buy.

Response:

There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels.

I saved an article from a 1991 issue of trout titled "Saved By The Barriers" about the encroachment of rainbows on the brookies of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that you may find of interest. I think the successful barrier height to keep out rainbows was 6 ft. or so. If you send me your address I’ll send the article on to you. owned ponds. IF there is a chance, specified by the VDGIF, that any stocked fish (rainbows) have the opportunity to take over native waters then the permit is not issued and they strongly urge you not to mess with mother nature. My question is, what if I could find brookies to stock, would these same rules apply.

VDGIF may be able to give you some insight as to whether the upper section has ever been stocked. If not and there was any chance of your stocked fish getting upstream then you might reconsider brookies. There probably are stocks of brook trout in Va. that escaped the fish bucket dumping craze and it would be a shame to intoduce outside stock to them. During Hoover’s day they even brought in New Hampshire brookies to stock the Rapidan with so I would suspect many other Virginia streams have a wide genetic mix of brookies as well.<G Before flyfishing, we (myself and some family) would buy 25-30 fish at a nearby pond, throw them in the "swimmin’ hole", bait up the kids poles and have a fish fry at the end of a long weekend. Now, I want to do it right, figure out numbers, size, the kind of things that are being discussed in this thread that would give them the best chance to live for as long as possible. As mentioned in my previous post, there are hold overs that I would think have lasted

If the upper reaches of your stream are in any of the parks or federal land then I would suggest getting in touch with some of the local TU people to find out who the govt. fisheries biologist is for your area. From my experience with them years ago they are generally hard working, caring folks who really enjoy what they do (despite lousy pay) and would probably be willing to answer your questions and steer you in the right direction. close to two and a half years. (rainbows) NOTHING would make me happier than to be able to go to my own land, and trout fish, however if I thought I would screw up the native population I will never put another fish in.

You are to be envied for both your stream and your prudent approach to the problem. Tim, not looking for reproduction,just a good time,

Up until the last few years I thought that WAS a good time. Long

Kiyu

Response:

There are natives in the head waters of this stream, there is quite a few miles and some small private dams in between me and the little native jewels. I have sent an email to the VDGIF and have yet to get a response from them. What I have gathered so far is, the VDGIF wants to sell private stockers a permit to stock, the state will not sell private owners fish from state run hatcheries, you must find them at private owned ponds. IF there is a chance, specified by the VDGIF, that any stocked fish (rainbows) have the opportunity to take over native waters then the permit is not issued and they strongly urge you not to mess with mother nature.My question is, what if I could find brookies to stock, would these same rules apply. Before flyfishing, we (myself and some family) would buy 25-30 fish at a nearby pond, throw them in the "swimmin’ hole", bait up the kids poles and have a fish fry at the end of a long weekend. Now, I want to do it right, figure out numbers, size, the kind of things that are being discussed in this thread that would give them the best chance to live for as long as possible. As mentioned in my previous post, there are hold overs that I would think have lasted close to two and a half years. (rainbows) NOTHING would make me happier than to be able to go to my own land, and trout fish, however if I thought I would screw up the native population I will never put another fish in. Tim,not looking for reproduction,just a good time, Long – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Considering the expense and effort being exerted out here in the west (and its just getting started) to restore our native trout, specifically cutthroat, a little consideration before carrying our five gallon buckets of rainbows and brookies to our favorite trout stream would have been appropriate I think. Keith I think the cat’s out of the bag in this case, Keith. Also, it seems that native brook trout wouldn’t be able to survive the temperatures in this stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Before you buy.

Response:

Considering the expense and effort being exerted out here in the west (and its just getting started) to restore our native trout, specifically cutthroat, a little consideration before carrying our five gallon buckets of rainbows and brookies to our favorite trout stream would have been appropriate I think. Keith

I think the cat’s out of the bag in this case, Keith. Also, it seems that native brook trout wouldn’t be able to survive the temperatures in this stream. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

The first consideration is that the stocking of exotic species in a free flowing stream is probably illegal, if not it should be. Check with your state’s fish and game agency. Keith

        well, we wouldn’t want those dangerously bizarre species like rainbow trout to infiltrate the otherwise pristine water of southwestern virginia, now would we? wayno, defender of red-eyes and other noble fauna

Response:

I am fortunate enough to own a decent stretch of a water (med.size creek) in SW Va. It has good numbers of smallmouth,red-eyes,pike,and many blue gill. In the deepest hole, it’s about 10-11 feet deep.I have measured the temp in July at the bottom. It was around 65 degrees. It keeps a pretty good flow. I put rainbows in a couple of years ago, back in my worm dunking days, and caught some trout this past spring so some must be holding over.My questions: I want to put some trout in this fall/winter…what is to be considered? How many? what type, (all I have been able to locate so far are rainbow and brookies), size? Will my neighbors be eating good, come the first good rain? Am I wasting money??? Other considerations from you folk would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Tim Long

Some questions to which you may wish to have answers, YMMV, of course: What is my goal, and what is my budget?  Then _my_ first call would be to the State – whatever the fish, game, wildlife, natural resources, etc. Department is called in Va. What do you own, i.e., do you actually own the creek, or just the banks, or the banks and bottom, or….?  How many total owners (if known) of/on the entire creek?  Does it originate and terminate on private land, and remain so bounded?  Will they participate?  How about the State?  What about tagging?  Some State Wildlife Dept/Dept. Nat. Resources/Fish and Game, etc. (like So. Carolina’s DNR) will even supply kits.  Can you impound, impede, restrict, or control the flow in any way? You mention holdovers – does the creek appear to completely freeze, or did you mean from you last stocking?  Also, you said you put rainbows, but caught trout.  Did you catch rainbows? What other species and sizes are swimming (to avoid the whole "native" debate…<G) there now, and when and where was any other stocking done? What was stocked? I would also think size of the stockers would be important, as they might simply become prey – that will simply be a location decision, based upon type, size, and number of likely preditory candidates. HTH? R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you buy.

Response:

Considering the expense and effort being exerted out here in the west (and its just getting started) to restore our native trout, specifically cutthroat, a little consideration before carrying our five gallon buckets of rainbows and brookies to our favorite trout stream would have been appropriate I think. Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The first consideration is that the stocking of exotic species in a free flowing stream is probably illegal, if not it should be. Check with your state’s fish and game agency. Keith well, we wouldn’t want those dangerously bizarre species like rainbow trout to infiltrate the otherwise pristine water of southwestern virginia, now would we? wayno, defender of red-eyes and other noble fauna

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Question:

I picked up a habit from other hobby, jogging:  I never go out in the woods without pepper spray.  The stuff sold under the name "Halt" is made for dogs. Any dog that is not on a leash and within range of the spray is fair game.  A

Response:

So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob _____ Robert?  I can’t believe you said this or that you really mean it. sigh.

Absolutely tongue-in-cheek, Mr. G.!  I love dogs.  (If prepared properly…) No, really… I love dogs and cats.  My last dog was a constant companion, except for fly fishing trips.  He did get to go to the streams on walks though, and LOVED the water.  My favorite behavior of his was "dipping for smelt."  When the smelt would run up the tributaries of Lake George, NY, I’d take old Elmo to a nearby stream.  He’d wade in, trap one of the thousands of smelt against the bottom with his paw, stick his head under to grab it, then wade out of the stream to eat it.  Then back in, etc. etc.  I could never figure out why he wouldn’t eat it while in the stream…. He was known to jump out of the boat into the water after a jumping smallmouth or landlocked salmon.  He also was caught several times in the process of stealing fish from other ice fishermen in the winter.   His  bear ancestry came out in his appetite for fish.  He’d empty a minnow bucket in no time if you left the lid off.  (Bobbing for snacks). I miss him as much as any person I ever knew. Bob Scott

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I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour.

I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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Bill, Labradors are the most loving and gentle dog I have ever seen.  They are quick learners and I am certain you can train it so it will be no trouble to any one on the stream.  Be careful around West Coast Salmon Rivers when the Salmon are Spawning.  A dog that eats dead salmon will get poisoned and die from it.  The vet has medication for this.  Once he has been Salmoned and recovers it will not bother him again. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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Bill I am sure that your pup will be the very model of Welsh decorum — Regards, Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. I have a 5 month old black labrador(Gwilym)…….I’ll say no more! He’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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I am sure that your pup will be the very model of Welsh decorum

He’s at the stage when he’s teething and wants to mouth everything. People tell me this will pass, but will my hands and arm last that long? Come to think of it will my kitchen last that long?…:-) But he’s bloody gorgeous! — Bill

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Went to local outdoors show recently and some idiot had a puppy about 6 mos. old on a leash walking around for everybody to trip on.  STUPID and VERY INCONSIDERATE OF OTHERS! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

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My friend Karen invited me on her family’s annual steelhead trip to the Klamath. Her dad had gone with his dad too, a fifty year tradition. I had never caught an adult steely on the fly in years of trying, never really knew what I was doing; this was my chance. She brought her Cocker Spaniel, Tio. It managed to keep up with us scrambling over boulders and cliffs with his short little legs, swimming valiantly where we’d wade across. He never barked, and kept us laughing all week after he rolled around in the fireside embers staying warm in the drizzle, singeing his tan coat with spots of brown burn and black charcoal. Karen and I were fishing a nice looking riffle where her dad had caught one the day before when Tio started a long low plaintive howl. By the end of the howl Karen was into a good fish. A few minutes later Tio howled again and I was into my first steelhead. Karen dunked herself landing it. There can never be payback for these kind of gifts, but I made a painting of it for her birthday and inscribed it "Howl me up a Steelhead Tio." Tio is blind now and hasn’t made the trip the last couple of years. We never know anymore when the fish will bite. Mark Vinsel www.vinsel.com

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Piere writes: <sniped nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre Some of us have the sense to teach our dogs the *down* and *stay*.  My Shepard will lie quietly on the bank until given permission to roam.  That may be a minute or it may be 2 hours, it’s up to me.  A good dog is one of God’s finest gifts. Patrick

  ______ Amen

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Maybe if they do, the Western Ettiquite thing won’t kick in…. I mean, the dogs will chase off anyone within 100 feet (or 200 feet on the water, in the case of Lewellyns) and wiith the exception of George’s dogs..most of em can’t fish, so you’ll have no competition….and from some of the assinine posts here lately (this one included…=8^)) I’d bet the majority of folks here couldn’t get another HUMAN to fish with them!!! HAR HAR HAR…..

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(lots of stuff previously posted deleted here) .  Do you own a dog by the way?

        well, george, now that you ask:  i don’t presently own a dog. i have often heard it said around piedmont n.c. that a man will be lucky with his women or lucky with his dogs, but never lucky with both.  thank god, i number myself among the former.  i have only owned two dogs.  the first, rachel, supposedly a high dollar english setter, ate two bobwhites i killed the first day i hunted her, and began to choke.  she crawled backwards (no lie) all the way back to the house, and damn near died.  i gave her away that weekend.  the next dog was a brittany named "rascal"; again, i was assured of the high quality breeding behind the noble animal.  papers, the whole nine yards, as we say in rowan county.  what i ended up with was a manic/depressive maddog that lived only to attack my two toddlers.  to this day they refuse to watch "lassie come home".  so, i guess i fall on the side of the anti-fishing dog argument.  anyway, thanks for all the good floating you have given my royal wulffs.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have five Llewellyn Setters.  You should come fish with us sometime. Keep smiling.

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IF…the dog does not bark at the slightest provocation….does not urinate on the tires of my Jeep….does not continually have to be watched because he’s wandered down to where I’m fishing and in the way of my backcast…then, perhaps, the dog is okay.  But, in fairness, there are some people that should be barred from the rivers along with the untrained dog. Barry P.S.  As an aside….something to be really careful about is allowing your dog to wander freely in a heavily fished area…where he may find the remains of a cleaned fish and eat it.  I’ve been told that such a lunch can poison a dog.  Maybe the biology experts in the Group can verify this one way or the other. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hehehe…my dog loves to fish! and I love having him along…..if someone "downstream" is bothered by this then the "downstream" person is fishing to close to me and should feel lucky to be in our presence.     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! [deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

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    I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!!

[deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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hehehe…my dog loves to fish! and I love having him along…..if someone "downstream" is bothered by this then the "downstream" person is fishing to close to me and should feel lucky to be in our presence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! [deleted] Unless’en ya gotchersef a gud fishin’ dog Pierre… …but perhaps you will not understand this… Hmmm…. Go watch the adventures of Yellow Dog.  Not Old Yeller….Yellow Dog, and chime back in afterwards. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

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i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Pierre,   Don’t judge all dogowners by one bad experience. Generally, I have found a good dog to be a better partner on the stream than most of the humans available…..when we ban animals from our rivers, do we just stick to the banks on back? Also, where are we going to put all the deer and bears and all? You may want to re-think this idea.                                                 Tom Littleton

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i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Please don’t make sweeping generalizations, a well trained dog can be a wonderful fishing companion.  If anything, at least attack the root of the problem.  Start a club that bans clueless humans (who bring untrained and unleashed dogs fishing) from the rivers. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Piere writes:

<sniped nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

Some of us have the sense to teach our dogs the *down* and *stay*.  My Shepard will lie quietly on the bank until given permission to roam.  That may be a minute or it may be 2 hours, it’s up to me.  A good dog is one of God’s finest gifts. Patrick

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I fished next to someone whose dog was an absolute pain in the ass. It stood on my line when casting, got in the way every time I hooked a fish and the last straw was that it jumped into the water on top of a fish I was about to net, fish and fly departed leaving an empty net, bare leader and livid ptk!! I have seen some very well behaved dogs at the waterside but you should only take your dog if you can guarantee it’s behaviour. — Regards, Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

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It’s the same with dogs as it is with people, it only takes a few bad ones to give them all a bad name. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre Please don’t make sweeping generalizations, a well trained dog can be a wonderful fishing companion.  If anything, at least attack the root of the problem.  Start a club that bans clueless humans (who bring untrained and unleashed dogs fishing) from the rivers. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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okay I understand that I have raised a hornets nest here and my intention was to get things off my chest..I have two golden retrievers and they will come with me when I go fishing but they STAY when I go and move when I move.. All I wanted to make mention of was that a good dog and ao good owner go together .. I am not a dog hater in any way but sheesh think of others.. I was at the river and the hole first!!! If yoiu have a good hole be considerate Pierre

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okay I understand that I have raised a hornets nest here and my intention was to get things off my chest..I have two golden retrievers

[deleted] Golden Retrievers should make EXCELLENT fishing dogs in the sierras. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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So people like me who carry a sidearm can have a target if the fishing gets slow (OR THE FISH GET PUT DOWN!) Bob

_____ Robert?  I can’t believe you said this or that you really mean it. sigh.

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     I am writing this in hopes that the idiot who was fishing down the river from me will read it and remember that dogs and fish do not MIX!! This person was whistling and calling for his damn mutt every time he disappeared from view ..he was probably afraid that the thing would get killed by another fisherman. Between running and diving into the water nothing was biting until it was black and real late and the damn dog ran out of energy. i hope that others don’t run into this but if you do let me know will start a club to ban animals from the rivers.! Pierre

_____ Well gee, Pierre.  My dogs take me fishing all the time.  One (Bogey) will pick up my fly rod and try and cast it by slowly shaking his head from side to side AFTER he drags it to the river’s edge (believe it or not). Moral?  Don’t set your fly rod down.  It seems you ran into a dog that was having more fun than an otter.   I always move on when I run into a river otter.  They will put fish down every time, the same as this guy  did to me one day on the San Juan, who waded  right through my pool.  I knew I had a problem as soon as I saw he was wearing a base ball hat on backwards!  I do believe he bought a hat that didn’t come with instructions.  Then again, if you had been attacked by a rabid cougar or black bear, you would have had that dog to fake them out while you ran for your bloody life.  Naturally, this is something that triggers predators.  Something that runs.  (Or bitches a lot). Well, it was sad to hear how upset  you were  with this "other fellah’s dog."  Then again, I hate kids that throw rocks in the water, or the shrill sound of a woman screaming at her husband to get out of the river and come on in and EAT!  Or, you could have been distracted by a kayaker, a inner tuber high on grass, or worse yet (and God forbid) a game warden. Yah, life is tough.  City life is tough.  Dogs that don’t get out much is tough on them too.  I’m sure the owner of the dog was distracted by catching so many fish he failed to notice a problem existed.  Do you own a dog by the way? I have five Llewellyn Setters.  You should come fish with us sometime. Keep smiling.

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Question:

Am planning a family trip to Oahu and keep wondering if I should take along a saltwater outfit. Haven’t been able to find out anything about the practicality of doing so. (Although I know that in some places they do some blue water flyfishing.) Anyway, I would appreciate any info. — Larry

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Hi Larry, Fishing around Oahu is bad.  We have too many fishermen and not enough fish.  This morning’s paper summed it up:

Question:

Does anyone have information about fishing in Huatulco/Puerto Escondido, Mexico area? I am planning a trip for mid august, but the only problem is, with less then a month left, I still have no idea what to expect. I will only be able to bring a 7/8 weight, and I will probably fish the bays in Huatulco and Puerto Angel….any other hot spots in the area???? I need to know what kind of fish are availible to me, and of course what flies (specific patterns?) or type of flies (shrimp? baitfish?) and what sizes i should tie them in….also handy would be possibly guide recommendations and leader strengths? Actually, any information at all would be great! I just need all the help I can get! Anyway, if you have any ideas, please either email me OR reply to this message!                                 Thanks in advance,                                 Scott

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have information about fishing in Huatulco/Puerto Escondido, Mexico area? I am planning a trip for mid august, but the only problem is, with less then a month left, I still have no idea what to expect. I will only be able to bring a 7/8 weight, and I will probably fish the bays in Huatulco and Puerto Angel….any other hot spots in the area???? I need to know what kind of fish are availible to me, and of course what flies (specific patterns?) or type of flies (shrimp? baitfish?) and what sizes i should tie them in….also handy would be possibly guide recommendations and leader strengths? Actually, any information at all would be great! I just need all the help I can get! Anyway, if you have any ideas, please either email me OR reply to this message!                                Thanks in advance,                                Scott

You can find some information about fishing in Huatulco and Puerto Angel on my web page.  You can start with http://www.eden.com/~tomzap/hfishing.html Tom Penick             Web page:             Austin, Texas            http://www.eden.com/~tomzap

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Question:

In a couple of weeks, I will be taking a trip for a couple days of fishing on Dale Hollow then a couple of days at Table Rock.  I have never been on either one of them.  Anyone have any advice on how to fish and what to use.  Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks

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I am envious.  I have not been on table rock in 10 years.  Table rock is full of bass and a few rainbow’s.  There are a few main rivers that empty in to Table rock.  One is the white river.  This river has decent fishing, but it soon turns shallow.  The other river is the Roaring River.  Matter a fact I would recommend canning the trip to table rock and heading up to Roaring River State park.  Buy a day pass, at last check it was $3, and fish your heart out.  The state park stocks the river with trout from the hatchery at the end of the park every night.  The limit was 5 trout and they are mighty good eating.  Roaring river is about 5 miles from Eagle Rock landing on tablerock.  If you like to fly fish, you will not find a better place in which to practice the fine art. Let me know if you wand any further info on Roaring River. IF you still want to go to table rock you will find great coves with plenty of dead cover.  That is, plenty of trees and stumps.  The bass are thick as theives.  If you go down by the dam the water is about 150 feet deep.  This is good fishing.  The water gets pretty warm in the summer. So the fish tend to run deep in the daytime. I hope you have luck.  If you need any further recomendations please let me know.  This is where I spent my summers for years. Deon Smith

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: In a couple of weeks, I will be taking a trip for a couple days of fishing : on Dale Hollow then a couple of days at Table Rock.  I have never been on : either one of them.  Anyone have any advice on how to fish and what to : use.  Any ideas would be appreciated. I fished the B.A.S.S. Missouri Invitational on Table Rock a few weeks back and I love the lake. If you haven’t booked a place to stay yet I stayed at a place called the Lighthouse Lodge in Kimberling City. A guy named Dave owns it and I really liked him. He is a fair source for where the fish are too. And no I don’t get no kick back or anything else from him. Although I haven’t fished Dale Hollow I was up there this spring to look around and it LOOKED a bit like Table Rock. Judgement based on standing no shore and looking at the lake. So take it for what its worth. Back to Table Rock. Best pattern I saw was fishing CEDAR trees. I could catch nice fish by dragging a lure through the tree and coming in contact with the tree. Stopping right after it hits and I would get bit. This was in varying depths of water. Could be as little as 8 feet and as much as 40. One guys method was to crank a stick bait down into the tops of trees in DEEP water and let it sit there. Move it a bit and let it sit again. It was too slow a pattern for me. Another good lure/method was to through light line with no weight and a Zoom minnow imitation to the tops of trees and let it sink. Twitching once in a while. This was a killer combination IF you had the right color. Color was key here. Just keep trying colors till they start tearing your arms off. Next was gravel points. Look for pea gravel on points and I used jerk baits. This was my best pattern. Both lakes are extremely clear water so long casts are a must. And remember that conditions change and what was working last month may not this month. Oh and when we were there the fish were spawning. Many people caught limits by sight fishing beds. Good fishing, All About Computers      | (810) 456-3894 (work) 2887 Pontiac Ct.         | (810) 373-6865 (home) Auburn Hills, Michigan   | Single and not taking applications. 48326                    | Interviews maybe.

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Question:

Howdy everyone!  I am in the planning stages of a trip to South-West Alaska.  I have this brochure from Alaska Fish and Game that tells of the fishing conditions on Prince of Wales Island.  From the description I read it sounds like a cross between the Henry’s Fork and New Zealand, ie pristine streams packed with rainbows and grayling.  Then I talked to my friend who was there two years ago and he said Prince of Wales Island is a clear-cut eyesore with only small trout.  What gives?  Can anyone confirm or deny this situation? -John —      Its not that flyfishing is everything, it is just that everything      else in my life is less important.                                                      -Moi

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Howdy everyone!  I am in the planning stages of a trip to South-West Alaska.  I have this brochure from Alaska Fish and Game that tells of the fishing conditions on Prince of Wales Island.  From the description I read it sounds like a cross between the Henry’s Fork and New Zealand, ie pristine streams packed with rainbows and grayling.  Then I talked to my friend who was there two years ago and he said Prince of Wales Island is a clear-cut eyesore with only small trout.  What gives?  Can anyone confirm or deny this situation? -John —     Its not that flyfishing is everything, it is just that everything     else in my life is less important.                                                     -Moi

It depends on where you are.  It is possible to be a quarter mile from a clear-cut area and think you are in a pristine forest.  The only way to get a good look at these ugly scars is from the air.  The lumber industry keeps telling everyone that they can harvest at a renewable sustained yield.  Then they come to Alaska and chop down old growth forests with Uncle Sam underwriting the cost.  The main players are Japanese firms that turn the trees into pulp, I guess they use it for VCR instruction books. BTW if you go to southwest Alaska you’ll be about 1,000 miles from POW Island. R. Wood in Alaska

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Question:

                     Thank you for stopping to read this       Hi, my name is Ash and I am currently doing reserch on the pschology of fly fishing. Through my reserch I found Abraham Maslow’s "hierarchy of needs" It is a pyramid which outlines our needs as humans. It states the following with physioloical needs being at the base. HIERARCHY OF NEEDS 1) Self-actualization needs     to find self- fulfillment amd realize one’s potential 2) Aesthetic  needs     symmetry, order, and beauty 3) Cognitive needs     to know, understand, and explore 4)  Esteem needs      to achieve, be competent, and gain approval and recognition 5)  Belongingness and love needs      to affiliate with others, be accepted, and belong 6)  Safety needs      feel secure and safe, out of danger 7)  Physiological needs      hunger, thirst, and so forth If you could please explain in detail how fly fishing meets these needs and if not why ?  What needs are being met by fly fishing. Thanks a lot for being apart of this. Once completed I will post my results on ths board so you may all see the results.

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Sorry pal, I’m to busy fly fishing and meeting my needs. Guess you’ll have to do the owrk yourself. Gone Fishing Lolo Mt

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7)  Physiological needs

In fly fishing, the difference between "want" and "need" is irrelevant.                                                 Randy Lutz

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout??? When I was in college at Westrern Carolina University at Cullowhee, NC we used to get a can of whole kernel corn.  Hook a kernel of corn on a #6 hook, and use 10 pound test line with one small buck shot sinker.   Don’t laugh; it works. — _____ *                    The Cantrells’                   * *       http://locals.onslowonline.net/~cantrell/     * *                  FAX:  910-938-7272                 * *                Coastal North Carolina               * *                        Zone 8                       *  

I do fishing in northern California in a place called Trinity Alps.  This place has nothing but streams and small rivers. I’ve always had luck using, as you mentioned, 10 pound test, #6 hook, but follow it up with a six foot leader, a small bobber, and a salmon egg.   Cast up stream and watch your bobber flow down stream, as it goes with the current, the egg takes a natral path.  The great part is, as the bobber flows past you, you can see when the fish hit on your bait by the bobber going down.  I like this kind of fishing because your not just sitting on your bum, you can walk up or down the river or stream for fish.

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What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

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What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

Depends on where you’re fishing, what their natural food base might be, what time of year and what size fish you’re pursuing. As far as live bait is concerned, I’ve caught rainbows in small rivers, on garden worms., meal worms, crickets, live salamander, salmon eggs, and the largest fish almost always on live shiners (minnows). Test line again kind of depends. For most rainbows stockie size and up you can go 2# 4# 6# depending how much excitement you want. If you’re going for real monsters, I guess you could go 8# and up. Since you can handle most rainbows within a reasonable size with the lighter lines, I think the more important factor to take into account is which line works best with your setup. Ken.H

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What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

When I was in college at Westrern Carolina University at Cullowhee, NC we used to get a can of whole kernel corn.  Hook a kernel of corn on a #6 hook, and use 10 pound test line with one small buck shot sinker.   Don’t laugh; it works. — _____ *                    The Cantrells’                   * *       http://locals.onslowonline.net/~cantrell/     * *                  FAX:  910-938-7272                 * *                Coastal North Carolina               * *                        Zone 8                       *  

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try red worms they work every where i have fished in western part of new york state.i am using 8lb.trilene.fished close to the bottom in slow moving pools.use spitshot to control depth.

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try red worms they work every where i have fished in western part of new york state.i am using 8lb.trilene.fished close to the bottom in slow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout???

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What bait should I use to catch rainbow trout in smaller rivers??? What test line would be a good choice to use for rainbow trout??? When I was in college at Westrern Carolina University at Cullowhee, NC we used to get a can of whole kernel corn.  Hook a kernel of corn on a #6 hook, and use 10 pound test line with one small buck shot sinker.   Don’t laugh; it works. — _____ *                    The Cantrells’                   * *       http://locals.onslowonline.net/~cantrell/     * *                  FAX:  910-938-7272                 * *                Coastal North Carolina               * *                        Zone 8                       *   In my neibourhood of Ontario we use Salmon eggs tied in a nylon sac fished

under a Blackbird float(pencil float if you can’t find them) My preferred way is to fly-fish using yarn flies and nymphs. Generally, use the lightest line possible for the water conditions. If the fish shy away from 10 pound test, go lighter until they don’t get spooked. I’ve had to go as light as 3.5 pound test in super clear,low water. good luck  Andy

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Question:

Wouldn’t you love to be there? Actually, I’ve never been. I’d like to know what it’s like in mid-July. I like beautiful, cool settings in my travel trailer with a crackling creek nearby, trout at the surface with their mouths agape. Can I make this a vacation that my non-angling wife would enjoy, too? Where is the best place to drop my rig? ……Straight leaders and no brush behind!

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Can I make this a vacation that my non-angling wife would enjoy, too? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NO

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Wouldn’t you love to be there? Actually, I’ve never been. I’d like to know what it’s like in mid-July. I like beautiful, cool settings in my travel trailer with a crackling creek nearby, trout at the surface with their mouths agape. Can I make this a vacation that my non-angling wife would enjoy, too? Where is the best place to drop my rig? …….Straight leaders and no brush behind!

the fish are abundant in the entire length of the quality waters.  For wading, it is always crowded, but less so in the middle of the week. If you plan to float the river, you will not have to fight the crowds as much, but there are many more floaters that when I first visited the river in ‘88.  I lived within four hours drive, and it was in my sales territory, so was able to fish it often until moving away last about a year ago.  A great area … check in at Abe’s Motel and Fly Shop for the latest info. Dee Crabtree DeeCrab*ibm.net

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Can I make this a vacation that my non-angling wife would enjoy, too?

If she likes to sit in the heat and read, or hike the rugged canyons, yes. I suggest you try to get her into a flyfishing school before you leave and maybe she will fish with you …. and maybe she won’t.  My wife is good for about 30 minutes of fishing before she is ready to head home! She does like the rugged beauty of the San Juan River however! Dee Crabtree DeeCrab*ibm.net

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Can I make this a vacation that my non-angling wife would enjoy, too?

Try leaving her in Durango,CO.  She can shop or take the scenic train or wahtever the heck it is my wife did last year.  Plus you can stop into Duranglers for some hints from the guys there.  Durango’s also a good base to hop over to the Dolores.  Nice tailwater fishing there, too. Jim

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Question:

TIP OF THE DAY; Studying insects helps anglers Knowing when aquatic insects should hatch gives you an advantage. Near the end of April, I fished a stretch of the Whitewater River = expecting a hatch of Hendrickson mayflies. I knew from experience that the adults show up on the water’s surface sometime between 2 = and 5 p.m. The day was perfect for good mayfly action, dark and ugly. At 11 a.m., I started wading upcurrent,  fishing  streamers. They didn’t = work. Next I dredged deep pools with nymphs. Bottom-hugging snags ate my nymphs. The trout were sulking.  A few tentative taps at my nymph pattern kept me awake. By 3 p.m., after 4 hours of hard  fishing,  I had caught and released only = four small browns. I probably would have given up then if I hadn’t known there would be a hatch. Just as I was beginning to wonder if the hatch really would occur, I roundeda bend and spied a platoon of 11- to 14-inch browns frol= icking in an ankle-deep riffle. They attacked. Every other drift through the riffle brought a strike – on each of the four different=  Hendrickson dry-fly patterns I used.

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URL http://www.deltanet.com/users/msangil

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