Question:

Hi All, October is the month you want to take off from work so you can fish for everything we have in the state. With the kids back in school and hunting season started there are less people fishing. Many trout streams pick up with the cooler fall temperatures. Flows are low and there are fall hatches. Brown trout are moving upstream to spawn.(Upper Sac, McCloud, Pit, Hat Creek, Fall River, East Carson, East Walker….) Lakes are cooling off so the trout are coming back to the surface to feed up for winter. ( Davis, Frenchmans,Almanor, Eagle, Crowley….) There are steelhead and salmon in all the rivers open to the ocean. (Klamath, Trinity, Lower Sac, Lower Feather, Lower Yuba, Lower American….) The stripers are schooling in the Sacramento Delta and the black bass have become active with the cooler water temps of fall. I guess the only fisheries that is not going in the fall is the American shad ? Try to plan a good trip this October so you can enjoy some good fly fishing. With the cooler temps you can fish all day too. If you need help planning a good trip or need the name of a good FF guide just let me know. It is pretty hard to have a bad trip in October in California. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com Toll free USA 1-800-400-0359

Response:

It is pretty hard to have a bad trip in October in California.

If this was from *anywhere* but CA, it wouldn’t have been near as funny. <g — TL, Tim

Response:

Question:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

That’s fucking twisted, son…

Response:

That’s fucking twisted, son…

NO, HE SAID IT WAS *ALUMINUM*, NOT "TWISTED, SON."   HTH. <g — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

That’s fucking twisted, son…

<snipped Was just watching the news and heard……. twisted indeed. — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

        damn you, vern, you have no mercy!! wayno

Response:

For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm That’s fucking twisted, son…

Maybe, but the man knows his frogs.  You run a good service, burley. Scott

Response:

Not as bad as selling DNA though….. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm That’s fucking twisted, son… Maybe, but the man knows his frogs.  You run a good service, burley. Scott

Response:

If your interested, I could put you on to a Td Williams fly fishing outfit from sears…..never been used…. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For Sale: Ted Williams Sears Ice chest in original box with price tag and booklets. Taking offers. For photos please visit: http://205.160.242.2/~xenopus/tedwilliams.htm

Response:

Question:

Where are the Delaware River Shad? I have yet to get a report of any shad being caught. If you hear of any catches please report to my shad website at www.homestead.com/woofish/shad.html. Thanks.

Response:

Hi Peter.  Please refrain from making your shad posts to the Rec.outdoors.fishing.bass newsgroup.  It’s not considered "on-topic" to post about other kinds of fish on the bass group.  Much appreciated, and tight lines to ya! Regards, Warren Wolk (emailed to Mr Groves on 2/12)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where are the Delaware River Shad? I have yet to get a report of any shad being caught. If you hear of any catches please report to my shad website at www.homestead.com/woofish/shad.html. Thanks.

Response:

Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

Whats funny, is I love shad fishing.  Go for Bass in the morning and evening and shad during the day.  same area. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

I wonder if we’re talking about the same type of shad Bill?  The American Shad? Warren2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Whats funny, is I love shad fishing.  Go for Bass in the morning and evening and shad during the day.  same area. Bill Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

Yes we are.  Big run of American shad up the Sacramento and Feather Rivers as well as the American River in Sacramento.  They were transplanted in the the early 1900’s along with Striped Bass.  Is a fun day when you catch 30-50 2-5# shad on an 8 weight fly rod.  Do not even have to cast the fly as I fish from a boat at Verona, the confluence of the Sac and the Feather.  Just feed out a 30′ shooting head and Amnesia line to the backing.  As to bassing, lots of bass in both rivers, both large and smallies.  The Feather is fed by the drop-shotting king lake, Oroville and the Sacramento is fed by Lake Shasta.  Went by Shasta last Friday and Sunday.  Sunday was raining and had snowed earlier in the day as was some pushed up in the middle of the road.  Was some people out fishing the lake by Bridge Bay Resort.  Wanted to stop and fish, but since the purpose of the trip was dropping the boat off in Medford, OR for a paint job and new T-8 kicker and bracket plus a mounting plate for the new MK 65 – AP I was returning with no boat.  Figure I will fish the lake mid April when I can go reclaim the boat.  Will be done earlier, but doing a trip to Cary, N.C. for a wedding and see friends in Martinsville, VA the 6 of April.  So not boating till mid April at a minimum. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder if we’re talking about the same type of shad Bill?  The American Shad? Warren2 Whats funny, is I love shad fishing.  Go for Bass in the morning and evening and shad during the day.  same area. Bill Nope, but someone’s gotta do it  Mr Groves has courteously replied to my email, and has apologized for the off-topic posts. WW Is that you Bob? — Craig Baugher www.yessssports.com

Response:

But, if you are a bait fisherman, you would be able to find Bass easier if you knew where the shad were. — Mike..   A true fisherman approaches the first day of fishing much as a child approaches Christmas, with the eager   anticipation, sleepless nights, making of lists, and the anticipating of pleasure.

Response:

Different shad.  Here in California the shad the bass eat are Threadfin Shad.  maybe 3" long.  And all the predators munch them.  The American Shad is the largest member of the Herring family and come to the river from salt to spawn.  The males are about 2# while the ladies are up to 5#. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, if you are a bait fisherman, you would be able to find Bass easier if you knew where the shad were. — Mike.. A true fisherman approaches the first day of fishing much as a child approaches Christmas, with the eager anticipation, sleepless nights, making of lists, and the anticipating of pleasure.

Response:

Question:

Before I go off to bed – which I should have done a while ago – I wanted to just think of a nice thing to write about, just in case someone wanted to read about a nice thing – or later write about their own nice thing. Saturday my son and I went to a movie.  There is one of those stores that has everything for a dollar near there, so we went there while we waited for the time for the movie.  I found a necklace rack – and we make lots of jewelry, so lots of times we get chains from those dollar stores to hold pendants that we create from stones or coral or shells encrusted w/wired strands of beads and semi-precious stones, etc.  Okay, so on this rack were also necklaces w/little openwork stars set in colored rhinestones, and also enameled dragonflies and enameled butterflies.  We got them all.  We like to take jewelries apart and put them back together in new ways with our own new components and it comes out to be a beautiful new things.  We thinks that some of you would like to see how they are.  If we knew what kinds of things you liked, we could even make some things for yous.  Yes, we could and even would. That is what we get enjoyment from – we gives our things aways.  Is it pretty to think of the stars w/rhinestones?  They are small, the stars, and the rhinestones are tiny.  Oh, and guess what?  We were at a party on Sunday and there were lots of babies there, and there was one tiny newborn girl who was only three weeks old and her name is Isabella and she was so beautiful and we liked looking at her and she just looked as if her life is going fine.  That’s a good thing, isn’t it?  And my son swam in the pool and made friends – even though he won’t see them again, because the party was far away – but we are so happy my son can do that, because we didn’t be able to when we was of his age. Thanks for your listenings.  Please to write nice things, too, if you feel like it – Beauty.

Response:

great post, Beauty. we, B and me (B being the fellow i care for), have had a busy week. he requested to go to several events this week, more than he ever requested before. one was a small festival by the river in a park that is low lying to the rest of the town since we have gentle mountians surrounding us. he requested a soft serve ice cream cone, and sat in his wheelchair beneath a tree as a local country band played music in the distance in an amphitheatre. we watched people walk by, and some who knew us stopped to chat a bit. the air this evening was warm and slightly humid, and the breeze from the river passing through the trees cooled us. as the sun went down, the lights from small children rides and food vendor’s wagons shown brightly, even with the ball field lights glowing high up above everything and everyone, high up on top of their poles. being a small community in this valley, i recognized many people walking by; people i knew over the past ten years. the younger folks looked so young and behaved in such a free spirited manor, some wearing clothes similar to the style i had worn in the seventies, but somehow more exaggerated. i noticed more jewlery, and piercings. the older women spoke of book reading clubs at the library, and cleaning crates of strawberries for the festival’s one day shortcake event. a few comments about ch*rch, and light humor were shared. B and me felt safe, and took in the varied sounds, and smells, and watched the world go by, as some would say. sometimes all is forgiven and forgotten, and life is breathed in and out of our lungs with welcome and ease. cliff  

Response:

Oh, e, I have always loved hearing about your cats.  There is a wonderful book I picked up on remainder called C*t K*ngdom, about a kind of experimental cat run some peoples created in Japan – I think it was Japan (I might be inventing that part).  The cats had a huge barn and also a huge fenced barnlot, and the peoples just watched – watched how their social structure worked, how they interacted, how their hierarchies worked, etc., over a few generations.  It is full of lots of pictures.  That’s kind of what your story made me think of – except that your situation is much more free-ranging and – purposeful.  And personal.  Again, much respect for what you do – and it did give me a lot of pleasure to read about all the cat friends, esp. Ty who growled his way into affection.  Oh, yeah, and Stella – that brave, wild queen. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks, Beauty. i liked hearing about the necklaces. and about Isabella and about your son having fun.  :-)   thanks. the main nice thing in my life now is that my "wild" cats have gone outside, along with most of the older "domestic" cats. they’re all between about 14 mos. old. and 2 1/4 years old. the semi-feral cats and the domestic cats have become good friends. they all seem to get along well and enjoy each other’s company. an almost completely untamed cat, Stella, is their ringleader. (Stella is another story. we got her too late to tame well but she’s such a sweet cat who loved to be petted in her cage and "mothered" most of the other cats, that we had high hopes that she’d tame up;  become our new "favorite, wonderful" cat; and sort of take the place of our old favorite, wonderful cat who died recently. but Stella never liked to be held and when she escaped from her cage late this winter, she was gone. except she comes in regularly to eat. anyway, the "house" cats have calmed down. the kittens are almost grown and so tear through the house much less frequently. they’re much calmer and quieter, although they still like to play. all the kittens are lap cats now except Becky who is afraid of the other cats and so mostly stays by the window. Puka, from the litter that came at the wrong time (i had too many other cats, some of them sick, and was out of it from the meds i was taking so i never paid enough attention to them when they were young and most tamable), is very friendly and follows me around like a puppy. but isn’t as yappy.  she still doesn’t like anyone else, though so adoption is still a long way off.  :-P~  her brother, Silver, was *very* friendly until i tried to get rid of his ear mites. now he only lets me pet him when he’s eating. but he had become so affectionate and he is so sweet that i still think he may eventually tame up better than Puka. we keep hoping that Sid (for Obsidian) will join the outside cats. he’s not at all tame and hides most of the time but i think he’ll be ok outside and will come in for food regularly. Ty, the formerly abused cat who’d lived outside or in our garage, is becoming a house cat. he still spends about half his time outside but he comes in often to be petted. he’s quite demanding.    :-)  when we first got him (as an adult) – right after he’d been neutered – i was afraid to touch him bc he growled so fiercely when i fed him or otherwise went anywhere near his cage. he kept it up the whole time i was near. after about a month or so, i decided i should let him go to become one of my outside cats. but i thought i should at least give him a chance at becoming domestic so i donned two pairs of leather gloves – he’s large and if he bit me i think it could have easily gone to the bone – and started to pet him. he backed up in the corner of his cage and faced me squarely. he was growling fiercely and loudly and looked poised to pounce. but i was determined to at least try to pet him. somehow i scruffed him and started petting his back. to my amazement, he started purring. when i stopped, he cried as if he wanted me to pet him some more. so i tried but as i reached for him, he growled and looked like he might attack me. but i tried again. and he purred again. this went on for a week or so. every time i’d get near his cage or feed him, he’d growl loudly and look like he was going to attack. but as soon as i began to pet him, he turned into a pussycat. and as soon as i’d stop, he’d cry for more petting. but when i’d try to pet him he’d growl and get in attack position as if he were thinking "if i can’t kill you, i’ll d*e trying." but as soon as i started petting him, he’d purr. after about a week of that (with both my kid and i taking turns petting him bc he was so demanding), he started crying soon before feeding time. and he’d cry for an hour or so after we’d left bc he wanted more petting. (we were usually good for around 30 min but rarely more. sometimes less.) but he’d still growl a LOT when we first began to pet him. it was funny. we’ve now had him around 10 mos. this week, he discovered the joys of laying on the sofa.  at first he kept jumping up and running away every time someone or something moved on the sofa (which is frequently when you have lots of cats and a big, pushy dog , but he’s much better about that now. and last night, when i got a toy – one of those flexible plastic sticks that has feathers attached at the end – to play with Puka and Silver (bc poor Puka, who hadn’t been played with in a couple of weeks, was so desperate that she’d been chasing the broom all around as i swept , Ty ran most of the 10 ft. from the sofa, where he’d been laying, to the open door. but i called his name and he stopped and turned around. he didn’t come back but he watched from maybe 6 ft away from the toy. he seemed fascinated but scared as he watched Puka and Silver play. i sat on the sofa, which was next to where i’d been playing with the cats, and called him. he came right away bc he loves to be petted, even if he’s still very skittish around ppl.  i petted him and put the feather toy next to him. he sniffed it a while then licked it. then he started batting it so i moved it a bit. he batted it more. then i moved it more and Ty started playing with the feathers. so did Puka.  :-) anyway, Ty is still skittish but otherwise you’d never know that he’d ever been anything but a very affectionate, sweet, and demanding cat. and my dog is calming down and not chasing the cats as much.  :-)  so a few of them actually like him now.  :-) he likes that. e Before I go off to bed – which I should have done a while ago – I wanted to just think of a nice thing to write about, just in case someone wanted to read about a nice thing – or later write about their own nice thing. Saturday my son and I went to a movie.  There is one of those stores that has everything for a dollar near there, so we went there while we waited for the time for the movie.  I found a necklace rack – and we make lots of jewelry, so lots of times we get chains from those dollar stores to hold pendants that we create from stones or coral or shells encrusted w/wired strands of beads and semi-precious stones, etc.  Okay, so on this rack were also necklaces w/little openwork stars set in colored rhinestones, and also enameled dragonflies and enameled butterflies.  We got them all.  We like to take jewelries apart and put them back together in new ways with our own new components and it comes out to be a beautiful new things.  We thinks that some of you would like to see how they are.  If we knew what kinds of things you liked, we could even make some things for yous.  Yes, we could and even would. That is what we get enjoyment from – we gives our things aways.  Is it pretty to think of the stars w/rhinestones?  They are small, the stars, and the rhinestones are tiny.  Oh, and guess what?  We were at a party on Sunday and there were lots of babies there, and there was one tiny newborn girl who was only three weeks old and her name is Isabella and she was so beautiful and we liked looking at her and she just looked as if her life is going fine.  That’s a good thing, isn’t it?  And my son swam in the pool and made friends – even though he won’t see them again, because the party was far away – but we are so happy my son can do that, because we didn’t be able to when we was of his age. Thanks for your listenings.  Please to write nice things, too, if you feel like it – Beauty.

Response:

This is a lovely post, too, cliff.  Thank you for sharing the beautiful evening.  Your words really brought it alive to us. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great post, Beauty. we, B and me (B being the fellow i care for), have had a busy week. he requested to go to several events this week, more than he ever requested before. one was a small festival by the river in a park that is low lying to the rest of the town since we have gentle mountians surrounding us. he requested a soft serve ice cream cone, and sat in his wheelchair beneath a tree as a local country band played music in the distance in an amphitheatre. we watched people walk by, and some who knew us stopped to chat a bit. the air this evening was warm and slightly humid, and the breeze from the river passing through the trees cooled us. as the sun went down, the lights from small children rides and food vendor’s wagons shown brightly, even with the ball field lights glowing high up above everything and everyone, high up on top of their poles. being a small community in this valley, i recognized many people walking by; people i knew over the past ten years. the younger folks looked so young and behaved in such a free spirited manor, some wearing clothes similar to the style i had worn in the seventies, but somehow more exaggerated. i noticed more jewlery, and piercings. the older women spoke of book reading clubs at the library, and cleaning crates of strawberries for the festival’s one day shortcake event. a few comments about ch*rch, and light humor were shared. B and me felt safe, and took in the varied sounds, and smells, and watched the world go by, as some would say. sometimes all is forgiven and forgotten, and life is breathed in and out of our lungs with welcome and ease. cliff

Response:

Hello, Beauty and J/c,    I think your jewellery making sounds wonderful, Beauty, and I would love to see what you do with the stars and things. Sounds lovely! And J/c, you have done some interesting things and seen some, too. My nice thing is that today my pottery class went to a potter’s studio to see his work and where he does it. He has a restaurant there, too, and we all had lunch together. We laughed, and shared food, especially the desserts, and we wandered with the potter in his fabulous gardens. The spring flowers were blooming, peonies bigger than dinner plates, and lupins and iris. The fish were swimming lazily in the pond, and the water lilies were in full blossom. We saw his wheels and the kiln and everything. We watched him throwing, and he showed us some special tools he has devised for certain purposes. It was an afternoon when DID didn’t. Not much. Driving there and back along the country roads where the green grasses and the gardens are lush was wonderful to see and smell. A nice thing today. jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great post, Beauty. we, B and me (B being the fellow i care for), have had a busy week. he requested to go to several events this week, more than he ever requested before. one was a small festival by the river in a park that is low lying to the rest of the town since we have gentle mountians surrounding us. he requested a soft serve ice cream cone, and sat in his wheelchair beneath a tree as a local country band played music in the distance in an amphitheatre. we watched people walk by, and some who knew us stopped to chat a bit. the air this evening was warm and slightly humid, and the breeze from the river passing through the trees cooled us. as the sun went down, the lights from small children rides and food vendor’s wagons shown brightly, even with the ball field lights glowing high up above everything and everyone, high up on top of their poles. being a small community in this valley, i recognized many people walking by; people i knew over the past ten years. the younger folks looked so young and behaved in such a free spirited manor, some wearing clothes similar to the style i had worn in the seventies, but somehow more exaggerated. i noticed more jewlery, and piercings. the older women spoke of book reading clubs at the library, and cleaning crates of strawberries for the festival’s one day shortcake event. a few comments about ch*rch, and light humor were shared. B and me felt safe, and took in the varied sounds, and smells, and watched the world go by, as some would say. sometimes all is forgiven and forgotten, and life is breathed in and out of our lungs with welcome and ease. cliff

Response:

Oh, it sounds so beautiful, jane.  Gardens and food and pots and fish.  What more could anyone want? Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Beauty and J/c,    I think your jewellery making sounds wonderful, Beauty, and I would love to see what you do with the stars and things. Sounds lovely! And J/c, you have done some interesting things and seen some, too. My nice thing is that today my pottery class went to a potter’s studio to see his work and where he does it. He has a restaurant there, too, and we all had lunch together. We laughed, and shared food, especially the desserts, and we wandered with the potter in his fabulous gardens. The spring flowers were blooming, peonies bigger than dinner plates, and lupins and iris. The fish were swimming lazily in the pond, and the water lilies were in full blossom. We saw his wheels and the kiln and everything. We watched him throwing, and he showed us some special tools he has devised for certain purposes. It was an afternoon when DID didn’t. Not much. Driving there and back along the country roads where the green grasses and the gardens are lush was wonderful to see and smell. A nice thing today. jane great post, Beauty. we, B and me (B being the fellow i care for), have had a busy week. he requested to go to several events this week, more than he ever requested before. one was a small festival by the river in a park that is low lying to the rest of the town since we have gentle mountians surrounding us. he requested a soft serve ice cream cone, and sat in his wheelchair beneath a tree as a local country band played music in the distance in an amphitheatre. we watched people walk by, and some who knew us stopped to chat a bit. the air this evening was warm and slightly humid, and the breeze from the river passing through the trees cooled us. as the sun went down, the lights from small children rides and food vendor’s wagons shown brightly, even with the ball field lights glowing high up above everything and everyone, high up on top of their poles. being a small community in this valley, i recognized many people walking by; people i knew over the past ten years. the younger folks looked so young and behaved in such a free spirited manor, some wearing clothes similar to the style i had worn in the seventies, but somehow more exaggerated. i noticed more jewlery, and piercings. the older women spoke of book reading clubs at the library, and cleaning crates of strawberries for the festival’s one day shortcake event. a few comments about ch*rch, and light humor were shared. B and me felt safe, and took in the varied sounds, and smells, and watched the world go by, as some would say. sometimes all is forgiven and forgotten, and life is breathed in and out of our lungs with welcome and ease. cliff

Response:

That is amazing about the other ducks, and thank you for helping the duck and we holding the duck in thoughts for healing best.  And here is a strange and funny thing:  we was watching M*ts and Or*oles game on television and there was a pair of mallards which came during about the 2nd inning and stayed through the 8th inning!!!  They was just wandering around out on the field together all that time together, and we think that is so funny and amazing and funny and then they just flew off and the camera kept showing us them and they showed us them flying off together, too.  Isn’t that funny and odd??? Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting.  she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond.  no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved.  i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first.  what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him.  wish the duck luck.   best, samantha

Response:

well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting.  she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond.  no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved.  i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first.  what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him.  wish the duck luck.   best, samantha  

Response:

hey – we had ducks too! i did forget all about them until now you say you had ducks. we lived in suburbs too, but there was a little bit of woods and a lake behind our house, and the ducks did live there. they would come quacking up through our back yard, and we would give them bread crumbs or something, and then they would go quacking home. what i remember as good about childhood was the lake behind our house. we would go there, and there was a tree with a little clearing that we could sit under and be lazy, and then there was cattails growing by the lake, and we could walk all around the lake on a little path, and sometimes go down to the water and watch little fishes. and sometimes go fishing too. and i think it’s not allowed now but we would whack the cattails open and it would be like little feathers floating and falling through the air. and then also we would pick the blackberries that did grow there. yum yum and sometimes ouch. i remember now i really did love the lake. tv

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We had ducks, my sister and I, when we were little.  They grew up and got white and we gave them to a farm.  They were cute ducklings – we had suburbs so we couldn’t have big ducks, it would have been stupid.  Thanks for writing. Beauty. hi beauty,  those ducks at the game sound really cute!  i had pet ducks as a child, have always loved to watch them.  all i know about my duck so far is the vet sent him to animal rescue, which i think means he could be saved.  still trying to find out more.   best, samantha

Response:

We had ducks, my sister and I, when we were little.  They grew up and got white and we gave them to a farm.  They were cute ducklings – we had suburbs so we couldn’t have big ducks, it would have been stupid.  Thanks for writing. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi beauty,  those ducks at the game sound really cute!  i had pet ducks as a child, have always loved to watch them.  all i know about my duck so far is the vet sent him to animal rescue, which i think means he could be saved.  still trying to find out more.   best, samantha

Response:

Thank you for the nice things.  We will tell you of one magical morning.  We woke up about 17 years ago in April to a freak blizzard of about four feet, and out of nowhere, perched all over our half a dozen bird feeders (we lived on a hill surrounded by deep woods) were scores of evening grosbeaks – do you know what they look like?  They are huge brilliant yellow birds w/parrot beaks and black markings.  We couldn’t believe it – we had never seen them before in our lives, and then there they were by the dozen.  The other thing we saw that was wonderful once was a group of newly-fledged scarlet tanagers:  when they are newly-fledged, they are not completely red yet – they are part red and part green – also like parrots.  Amazing!  I adore birds – they are the most incredible, incredible, beautiful creatures.  There are no words for how wonderful, delicate, unearthly they are.  But you know that.  Oh – and the unearthly, subtle, inexpressible colors of the mourning doves . . . Best – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting. she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond. no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved. i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first. what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him. wish the duck luck. best, samantha That was so kind of you, samantha.  The duck was very lucky that y’all came along.  Hope it’s doing better. My nice thing is that the other day I saw a Northern Oriole, and a wild parrot,  both within 5 minutes .  They were both so incredibly beautiful. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting. she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond. no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved. i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first. what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him. wish the duck luck. best, samantha

That was so kind of you, samantha.  The duck was very lucky that y’all came along.  Hope it’s doing better. My nice thing is that the other day I saw a Northern Oriole, and a wild parrot,  both within 5 minutes .  They were both so incredibly beautiful. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

hi beauty,  those ducks at the game sound really cute!  i had pet ducks as a child, have always loved to watch them.  all i know about my duck so far is the vet sent him to animal rescue, which i think means he could be saved.  still trying to find out more.   best, samantha

Response:

Now we say funny – we had our ducks from when they used to have to be allowed to sell them in dime stores, back when the did still have dime stores, which they do not anymore, now they have dollar stores.  But one night we all did go to the dime store for something we don’t remember what because we were only maybe four years old and we did see ducklings and chicks under warm lights and going peepeepeep like they do and we were so happy to see them and all of a sudden the fthr said we would get two of them, for my sstr and me and the mthr argued no it was crazy but he did make it happen, and we could hardly believe it!!!!!  They did let us pick out our ones and we did, and they did get a shoebox with holes in the top for the ducklings to get air for us to take them home and then we couldn’t stand it for when we got in the car we just had to peek and of course out they did hop and all around the car and peep peep peep and under the seats and things but we did finally get them to get back to us and we got them back into the box and to the house and they did live there, inside and out, until they did get big and white. Beautys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey – we had ducks too! i did forget all about them until now you say you had ducks. we lived in suburbs too, but there was a little bit of woods and a lake behind our house, and the ducks did live there. they would come quacking up through our back yard, and we would give them bread crumbs or something, and then they would go quacking home. what i remember as good about childhood was the lake behind our house. we would go there, and there was a tree with a little clearing that we could sit under and be lazy, and then there was cattails growing by the lake, and we could walk all around the lake on a little path, and sometimes go down to the water and watch little fishes. and sometimes go fishing too. and i think it’s not allowed now but we would whack the cattails open and it would be like little feathers floating and falling through the air. and then also we would pick the blackberries that did grow there. yum yum and sometimes ouch. i remember now i really did love the lake. tv We had ducks, my sister and I, when we were little.  They grew up and got white and we gave them to a farm.  They were cute ducklings – we had suburbs so we couldn’t have big ducks, it would have been stupid.  Thanks for writing. Beauty. hi beauty,  those ducks at the game sound really cute!  i had pet ducks as a child, have always loved to watch them.  all i know about my duck so far is the vet sent him to animal rescue, which i think means he could be saved.  still trying to find out more.   best, samantha

Response:

(trying to focus some, and hurting some too) writitng seems to be my salvaion, eventhough i don’t do it so well. good things, yeah, they happen. like last evening, watching the sunset from a higher point in the valley, before it dipped down low where fields, spotted with round bales of hey and cattle, little homes with white wooden siding and porches, barns and silos, rail and wire fences, and trees reaching the first mountain ridge, exposing the next ridge, and then the next, maybe four rows of mountains leading to the final horizon all in lighter shades of blue. warm air breezes carrying rich sweet smells of fresh cut alphalfa (sp) hey intoxicated my senses. i didn’t want to leave. thanks. oh, and Beauty. i sing everything, proudly, and badly! )) cliff    

Response:

cliff, I have read the place where you wrote how much you want to speak/write – how you yearn to reach for language.  Oh, you do have it, my friend.  Your prose does sing – proudly, proudly – and w/strength.  And the humility and pride, hand in hand, augment the strength. Peace – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (trying to focus some, and hurting some too) writitng seems to be my salvaion, eventhough i don’t do it so well. good things, yeah, they happen. like last evening, watching the sunset from a higher point in the valley, before it dipped down low where fields, spotted with round bales of hey and cattle, little homes with white wooden siding and porches, barns and silos, rail and wire fences, and trees reaching the first mountain ridge, exposing the next ridge, and then the next, maybe four rows of mountains leading to the final horizon all in lighter shades of blue. warm air breezes carrying rich sweet smells of fresh cut alphalfa (sp) hey intoxicated my senses. i didn’t want to leave. thanks. oh, and Beauty. i sing everything, proudly, and badly! )) cliff

Response:

Wow, what wonderful sightings, Beauty.  Magical indeed!   I love birds, too, as you might have guessed.  My most exciting sighting this year was a pileated woodpecker.  We get lots of red-bellied, Downy and Hairy woodpeckers, but this was a real treat.  He was magnificent (and noisy, even tho’ he was pecking very slowly and deliberately). mdove Thank you for the nice things. We will tell you of one magical morning. We woke up about 17 years ago in April to a freak blizzard of about four feet, and out of nowhere, perched all over our half a dozen bird feeders (we lived on a hill surrounded by deep woods) were scores of evening grosbeaks – do you know what they look like?

Oh, yes.  But I’ve only seen one, many years ago. They are huge brilliant yellow birds – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – w/parrot beaks and black markings. We couldn’t believe it – we had never seen them before in our lives, and then there they were by the dozen. The other thing we saw that was wonderful once was a group of newly-fledged scarlet tanagers: when they are newly-fledged, they are not completely red yet – they are part red and part green – also like parrots. Amazing! I adore birds – they are the most incredible, incredible, beautiful creatures. There are no words for how wonderful, delicate, unearthly they are. But you know that. Oh – and the unearthly, subtle, inexpressible colors of the mourning doves . . . Best – Beauty. well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting. she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond. no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved. i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first. what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him. wish the duck luck. best, samantha That was so kind of you, samantha. The duck was very lucky that y’all came along. Hope it’s doing better. My nice thing is that the other day I saw a Northern Oriole, and a wild parrot, both within 5 minutes . They were both so incredibly beautiful. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: message

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Response:

You would love it where we are – pileated heaven.  Someone once counted 26 pileateds at once in a single site.  And we have them living right around us – across the road mostly, in a big old rotten tree.  Also, our favorite thing – once we saw a nest of baby ones – just barely fledged – sticking their silly little baby necks all out of the tree squawking for the mthr – and then the next day – they had flown the nest!!!  We also had a phoebe who nested for years atop the light just outside our door, attached to our house – we passed w/in inches of her nest coming and going all spring and summer.  The last summer she was here she raised two broods – they were *darling*!!!! when they were just to the stage of standing on the edge of the nest ready to fly – looking down at us with this completely unfazed gaze – just too, too baby even to care that we were another species – darling. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, what wonderful sightings, Beauty.  Magical indeed!   I love birds, too, as you might have guessed.  My most exciting sighting this year was a pileated woodpecker.  We get lots of red-bellied, Downy and Hairy woodpeckers, but this was a real treat.  He was magnificent (and noisy, even tho’ he was pecking very slowly and deliberately). mdove Thank you for the nice things. We will tell you of one magical morning. We woke up about 17 years ago in April to a freak blizzard of about four feet, and out of nowhere, perched all over our half a dozen bird feeders (we lived on a hill surrounded by deep woods) were scores of evening grosbeaks – do you know what they look like? Oh, yes.  But I’ve only seen one, many years ago. They are huge brilliant yellow birds w/parrot beaks and black markings. We couldn’t believe it – we had never seen them before in our lives, and then there they were by the dozen. The other thing we saw that was wonderful once was a group of newly-fledged scarlet tanagers: when they are newly-fledged, they are not completely red yet – they are part red and part green – also like parrots. Amazing! I adore birds – they are the most incredible, incredible, beautiful creatures. There are no words for how wonderful, delicate, unearthly they are. But you know that. Oh – and the unearthly, subtle, inexpressible colors of the mourning doves . . . Best – Beauty. well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting. she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond. no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved. i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first. what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him. wish the duck luck. best, samantha That was so kind of you, samantha. The duck was very lucky that y’all came along. Hope it’s doing better. My nice thing is that the other day I saw a Northern Oriole, and a wild parrot, both within 5 minutes . They were both so incredibly beautiful. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: message GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

P.S. – Did you know that pileateds are the only species of woodpecker who begin by pecking slow and get faster as they peck (that is, when they are pecking in rhythm, and not in that single-stroke, deliberate way you mention).  So that’s one way you can tell if there are pileateds around even if you don’t see them – their pecking sounds like a ten-penny nail being driven into a telephone pole by an accelerating hammer. W**dy W**dpecker is a pileated.  His crazy laugh is modeled on the actual sound they make, which really does sound like maniacal laughter.  You can tell the males from the females because the males have crests which are entirely red and the females have crests which are red only along the top of the tuft. You probably know most of that, right?  I’m just being excited, because I like to talk about birds.  One winter I worked to get chickadees to land in my hands and eat.  That spring, they still knew me, and they used to land on my head when I was sitting outside reading.  That was one of my most magical experiences ever – the feel of their little feet – I can’t even begin to describe it – and knowing that they would come to me, let their little feathers and bright eyes live so close to my seeing. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, what wonderful sightings, Beauty.  Magical indeed!   I love birds, too, as you might have guessed.  My most exciting sighting this year was a pileated woodpecker.  We get lots of red-bellied, Downy and Hairy woodpeckers, but this was a real treat.  He was magnificent (and noisy, even tho’ he was pecking very slowly and deliberately). mdove Thank you for the nice things. We will tell you of one magical morning. We woke up about 17 years ago in April to a freak blizzard of about four feet, and out of nowhere, perched all over our half a dozen bird feeders (we lived on a hill surrounded by deep woods) were scores of evening grosbeaks – do you know what they look like? Oh, yes.  But I’ve only seen one, many years ago. They are huge brilliant yellow birds w/parrot beaks and black markings. We couldn’t believe it – we had never seen them before in our lives, and then there they were by the dozen. The other thing we saw that was wonderful once was a group of newly-fledged scarlet tanagers: when they are newly-fledged, they are not completely red yet – they are part red and part green – also like parrots. Amazing! I adore birds – they are the most incredible, incredible, beautiful creatures. There are no words for how wonderful, delicate, unearthly they are. But you know that. Oh – and the unearthly, subtle, inexpressible colors of the mourning doves . . . Best – Beauty. well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting. she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond. no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved. i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first. what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him. wish the duck luck. best, samantha That was so kind of you, samantha. The duck was very lucky that y’all came along. Hope it’s doing better. My nice thing is that the other day I saw a Northern Oriole, and a wild parrot, both within 5 minutes . They were both so incredibly beautiful. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: message GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

Hey Beauty Really enjoy reading your *bird* posts…..:o)) Thanx Those pileated sure are something aren’t they!! Don’t get to see very many of them up here.. In fact I think they are on the endangered list… Just a couple of years ago my p*rents stopped the government from building an access road to their secluded community because a mating pair had settled in the bush behind their place.. They live 20 miles to the nearest road and they like it that way..;)  Gov. regulations forbade any construction within the area….  :o)) Cool birds to watch… too!    :o)) J/c btw… we see a lot of evening grosbeaks up here too!! beautiful!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You would love it where we are – pileated heaven.  Someone once counted 26 pileateds at once in a single site.  And we have them living right around us – across the road mostly, in a big old rotten tree.  Also, our favorite thing – once we saw a nest of baby ones – just barely fledged – sticking their silly little baby necks all out of the tree squawking for the mthr – and then the next day – they had flown the nest!!!  We also had a phoebe who nested for years atop the light just outside our door, attached to our house – we passed w/in inches of her nest coming and going all spring and summer. The last summer she was here she raised two broods – they were *darling*!!!! when they were just to the stage of standing on the edge of the nest ready to fly – looking down at us with this completely unfazed gaze – just too, too baby even to care that we were another species – darling. Beauty. Wow, what wonderful sightings, Beauty.  Magical indeed!   I love birds, too, as you might have guessed.  My most exciting sighting this year was a pileated woodpecker.  We get lots of red-bellied, Downy and Hairy woodpeckers, but this was a real treat.  He was magnificent (and noisy, even tho’ he was pecking very slowly and deliberately). mdove Thank you for the nice things. We will tell you of one magical morning. We woke up about 17 years ago in April to a freak blizzard of about four feet, and out of nowhere, perched all over our half a dozen bird feeders (we lived on a hill surrounded by deep woods) were scores of evening grosbeaks – do you know what they look like? Oh, yes.  But I’ve only seen one, many years ago. They are huge brilliant yellow birds w/parrot beaks and black markings. We couldn’t believe it – we had never seen them before in our lives, and then there they were by the dozen. The other thing we saw that was wonderful once was a group of newly-fledged scarlet tanagers: when they are newly-fledged, they are not completely red yet – they are part red and part green – also like parrots. Amazing! I adore birds – they are the most incredible, incredible, beautiful creatures. There are no words for how wonderful, delicate, unearthly they are. But you know that. Oh – and the unearthly, subtle, inexpressible colors of the mourning doves . . . Best – Beauty. well i was at the park and i saw my daughter’s dog running along with someone, it was her friend who is dog-sitting. she stoppedand we were talking a minute when some people were noticing an injured duck at the side of the pond. no one wanted to help it so we took it to the emergency vets and they will see if it can be saved. i haven’t called yet to find out but we felt really good about trying, duck had bad leg, couldn’t swim and would have suffered out in the heat tomorrow if the ants didn’t get it first. what was really touching was how the other ducks were gathered around him and wouldn’t leave him. wish the duck luck. best, samantha That was so kind of you, samantha. The duck was very lucky that y’all came along. Hope it’s doing better. My nice thing is that the other day I saw a Northern Oriole, and a wild parrot, both within 5 minutes . They were both so incredibly beautiful. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: message GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

You would love it where we are – pileated heaven. Someone once counted 26 pileateds at once in a single site.

Yes, I would love that.  I can’t even imagine a sight like that!  About 11 years ago I saw a pair, but hadn’t seen any since, until this one. And we have them living right around us – across the road mostly, in a big old rotten tree. Also, our favorite thing – once we saw a nest of baby ones – just barely fledged – sticking their silly little baby necks all out of the tree squawking for the mthr – and then the next day – they had flown the nest!!!

Oh, wow!!  I’ll bet they were cute (or so ugly they were cute.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We also had a phoebe who nested for years atop the light just outside our door, attached to our house – we passed w/in inches of her nest coming and going all spring and summer. The last summer she was here she raised two broods – they were *darling*!!!! when they were just to the stage of standing on the edge of the nest ready to fly – looking down at us with this completely unfazed gaze – just too, too baby even to care that we were another species – darling.

Wonderful!!!!!   Once we had the privilege of watching a chuck-will’s-widow nesting in our yard (actually, there was no visible nest at all-she just laid her eggs on the ground.  It was a wonderful treat because we had heard them at night for many years, but had never seen one.  We got to see her and her three young ones up close and personal.  An amazing bird–really put on quite a display if anyone got to close to the nest. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

P.S. – Did you know that pileateds are the only species of woodpecker who begin by pecking slow and get faster as they peck (that is, when they are pecking in rhythm, and not in that single-stroke, deliberate way you mention). So that’s one way you can tell if there are pileateds around even if you don’t see them – their pecking sounds like a ten-penny nail being driven into a telephone pole by an accelerating hammer.

Didn’t know that….or if I did, I forgot W**dy W**dpecker is a pileated. His crazy laugh is modeled on the actual sound they make, which really does sound like maniacal laughter. You can tell the males from the females because the males have crests which are entirely red and the females have crests which are red only along the top of the tuft.

Yep, knew that….this one was a male. You probably know most of that, right? I’m just being excited, because I like to talk about birds.

Several years ago I used to lurk at rec.birds……lots of bird talk there.  At least there used to be.  I used to know a lot more about birds than I do now.  I kind of lost interest while I was really depressed, and have forgotten quite a bit,  but my enthusiasm for birdwatching has been returning during the past couple years.  I need to get some new binoculars and get back out there..   One winter I worked to get chickadees to land in my hands and eat. That spring, they still knew me, and they used to land on my head when I was sitting outside reading. That was one of my most magical experiences ever – the feel of their little feet – I can’t even begin to describe it – and knowing that they would come to me, let their little feathers and bright eyes live so close to my seeing. Beauty.

Oh, that is so cute…..<broad smile  what a wonderful experience. Thank you for sharing this. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

thanks so much to tv, Beauty, samantha, mdove, and others who’ve talked about their experiences with birds.  :-)  i like watching birds but try to discourage them from being in my yard, partly bc of my cats and partly bc of the neighborhood dogs, including mine. but to have birds land on your head would be magical!  :-) i can’t imagine how much work it must have taken. i’m reminded of Beauty from the story "Beauty" (IIRC) which was a retelling of "Beauty and the Beast". oh, and D*sney’s and others’ versions of the story, too.  :-) e You would love it where we are – pileated heaven.  Someone once counted 26 pileateds at once in a single site.  And we have them living right around us – across the road mostly, in a big old rotten tree.  Also, our favorite thing – once we saw a nest of baby ones – just barely fledged – sticking their silly little baby necks all out of the tree squawking for the mthr – and then the next day – they had flown the nest!!!  We also had a phoebe who nested for years atop the light just outside our door, attached to our house – we passed w/in inches of her nest coming and going all spring and summer.  The last summer she was here she raised two broods – they were *darling*!!!! when they were just to the stage of standing on the edge of the nest ready to fly – looking down at us with this completely unfazed gaze – just too, too baby even to care that we were another species – darling. Beauty.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -One winter I worked to get chickadees to land in my hands and eat.  That spring, they still knew me, and they used to land on my head when I was sitting outside reading.  That was one of my most magical experiences ever – the feel of their little feet – I can’t even begin to describe it – and knowing that they would come to me, let their little feathers and bright eyes live so close to my seeing. Wow, what wonderful sightings, Beauty.  Magical indeed!   I love birds, too, as you might have guessed.  My most exciting sighting this year was a pileated woodpecker.  We get lots of red-bellied, Downy and Hairy woodpeckers, but this was a real treat.  He was magnificent (and noisy, even tho’ he was pecking very slowly and deliberately). mdove Thank you for the nice things. We will tell you of one magical morning. We woke up about 17 years ago in April to a freak blizzard of about four feet, and out of nowhere, perched all over our half a dozen bird feeders (we lived on a hill surrounded by deep woods) were scores of evening grosbeaks – do you know what they look like? Oh, yes.  But I’ve only seen one, many years ago. They are huge brilliant yellow birds  w/parrot beaks and black markings. We couldn’t believe it – we had never seen them before in our lives, and then there they were by the dozen. The other thing we saw that was wonderful once was a group of newly-fledged scarlet tanagers: when they are newly-fledged, they are not completely red yet – they are part red and part green – also like parrots. Amazing! I adore birds – they are the most incredible, incredible, beautiful creatures. There are no words for how wonderful, delicate, unearthly they are. But you know that. Oh – and the unearthly, subtle, inexpressible colors of the mourning doves . . .

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Response:

Sometimes we pretend that when they say "dee dee dee" they are really advertising the latest in video recording technology (DVD).  It’s funny when you think of it in chickadee talk. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – P.S. – Did you know that pileateds are the only species of woodpecker who begin by pecking slow and get faster as they peck (that is, when they are pecking in rhythm, and not in that single-stroke, deliberate way you mention). So that’s one way you can tell if there are pileateds around even if you don’t see them – their pecking sounds like a ten-penny nail being driven into a telephone pole by an accelerating hammer. Didn’t know that….or if I did, I forgot W**dy W**dpecker is a pileated. His crazy laugh is modeled on the actual sound they make, which really does sound like maniacal laughter. You can tell the males from the females because the males have crests which are entirely red and the females have crests which are red only along the top of the tuft. Yep, knew that….this one was a male. You probably know most of that, right? I’m just being excited, because I like to talk about birds. Several years ago I used to lurk at rec.birds……lots of bird talk there.  At least there used to be.  I used to know a lot more about birds than I do now.  I kind of lost interest while I was really depressed, and have forgotten quite a bit,  but my enthusiasm for birdwatching has been returning during the past couple years.  I need to get some new binoculars and get back out there.. One winter I worked to get chickadees to land in my hands and eat. That spring, they still knew me, and they used to land on my head when I was sitting outside reading. That was one of my most magical experiences ever – the feel of their little feet – I can’t even begin to describe it – and knowing that they would come to me, let their little feathers and bright eyes live so close to my seeing. Beauty. Oh, that is so cute…..<broad smile  what a wonderful experience. Thank you for sharing this. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

Oh, yes, the pileateds were purely cute.  And we do love those ground-nesting "willow" birds – nightjars, are they called, as a type?  Our favorite is the whip-poor-will – what a beautiful, beautiful haunting sound, which echoes from mountain to mountain through the early pre-dawn mists.  And if you hear one close enough, you hear a tiny cough just before the call.  Also reminds me – have you see the woodcocks do their mating dance?  Or hummingbirds? We’ll explain, given the slightest excuse.  Never did see a chuck-will’s-widow.  Our other favorites are the little screech owls we get to hear in our riverine woods, and the pair of great horned owls also nesting along the river.  The female of the species has the deeper voice of the two. Oh, and once a barred owl got tangled in some fishing wire and we got to help rescue her –  and her eyes – oh the solemn depth of blackness – and the soft depth of feathers. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You would love it where we are – pileated heaven. Someone once counted 26 pileateds at once in a single site. Yes, I would love that.  I can’t even imagine a sight like that!  About 11 years ago I saw a pair, but hadn’t seen any since, until this one. And we have them living right around us – across the road mostly, in a big old rotten tree. Also, our favorite thing – once we saw a nest of baby ones – just barely fledged – sticking their silly little baby necks all out of the tree squawking for the mthr – and then the next day – they had flown the nest!!! Oh, wow!!  I’ll bet they were cute (or so ugly they were cute.) We also had a phoebe who nested for years atop the light just outside our door, attached to our house – we passed w/in inches of her nest coming and going all spring and summer. The last summer she was here she raised two broods – they were *darling*!!!! when they were just to the stage of standing on the edge of the nest ready to fly – looking down at us with this completely unfazed gaze – just too, too baby even to care that we were another species – darling. Wonderful!!!!!   Once we had the privilege of watching a chuck-will’s-widow nesting in our yard (actually, there was no visible nest at all-she just laid her eggs on the ground.  It was a wonderful treat because we had heard them at night for many years, but had never seen one.  We got to see her and her three young ones up close and personal.  An amazing bird–really put on quite a display if anyone got to close to the nest. mdove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And, p.s., we also have wild turkeys in abundance around here, and I saw a baby turkey once and it was *funny* *funny* *funny* looking. And we do love those ground-nesting "willow" birds – nightjars, are they called, as a type? Yep… Our favorite is the whip-poor-will – what a beautiful, beautiful haunting sound, which echoes from mountain to mountain through the early pre-dawn mists. And if you hear one close enough, you hear a tiny cough just before the call. Chuck-will’s-widow sounds very similar to the whip-poor-will, I think, except there is a little "chuck" sound before the call. I didn’t realize the whip-poor-will had the cough sound. Interesting birds. Maybe the cough was a chuck. Seems likely. Or a cluck. Or something. It was a very, very, very small sound, only audible because the bird was practically sitting on my windowsill. Well, under it. Also reminds me – have you see the woodcocks do their mating dance? I’ve never seen a woodcock in RL, only on television. They are pretty cool looking. That must be quite a sight. Here’s what they do. They like to live near wetlands that have adjacent meadows – they go into the meadows at twilight. The males fly straight up like rockets and then come spiraling down – and as they come down, special feathers in their wings cause a whistling sound!!! I’ve seen the females sitting on the ground, too – kind of looking like, "Get off it." You know.

Too cool.  I’d love to see that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Or hummingbirds? Have seen many ruby-throated, but none doing a mating dance, unfortunately. They are amazing. Male hummingbirds also have special feathers that cause a humming sound when they do their mating thing – which is a wide, swinging, pendulum motion in flight, before the seated female. We’ll explain, given the slightest excuse. Never did see a chuck-will’s-widow. Our other favorites are the little screech owls we get to hear in our riverine woods, and the pair of great horned owls also nesting along the river. The female of the species has the deeper voice of the two. You know, we have one of those bird clocks, and the 12:00 bird is the great horned owl. That is fine for noon, but if I am working at the computer at night, I need to remember to dim the lights in here prior to midnight, or the hoot resounds throughout the house. When we first got the clock, my son used to imitate the owl incessantly. Once I was awakened at 3:00 am by the sound and was just about to yell out at him to knock it off (I wasn’t quite fully awake), when I realized it was the actual bird, very close to our house. We had never heard one before we purchased that silly clock, and were wondering if perhaps the clock had attracted one (it is a really loud clock!) They have about five or six hoots per call – hoo! hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo . . . hoo – I never knew that until I read Peterson’s guide and then heard them.

Yes….this clock is very accurate, as was my son’s imitation.  Now we call all do it, but my son’s hoo-ing is by far the best. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, and once a barred owl got tangled in some fishing wire and we got to help rescue her – and her eyes – oh the solemn depth of blackness – and the soft depth of feathers. What an incredible experience that must have been. Was she calm as you helped her? They’ve got some pretty sharp talons. She was calm as a lamb. I think she was so frightened – she had been up there so long – and probably weak – that she had no fight in her. We have pictures of her, because the local newspaper was there and got color photos.

Wonderful… Thanks for reading. I like this talking about birds – they make me happy when nothing else does.

me, too.  I like butterflies, too.  I used to have 2 butterfly gardens, but surrendered them to the weeds during a couple years of depression. One is totally gone, but the other is probably salvageable.  Maybe I’ll go out there one of these days and try to start rehabilitating it. Today, too, we saw a beautiful butterfly – I don’t know what kind – yellow and black on top with yellow and black and aqua underneath!

Sounds beautiful.  I have a butterfly book around here somewhere. Haven’t looked in it in ages. And the black raspberries suddenly turned ripe – as my son discovered. He wrote a beautiful poem called The Garden: Like the garden of Eden it is. So vast, like the ocean. The hours fly like a bird in the air, when I am there.

Oh, that is beautiful beyond words! Can you see why I love him so much?

Absolutely!    Oh, shoot….it’s midnight, and I forgot to dim the lights.  There goes "Hoots"….. g’night mdove Beauty.

– For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

snip Thanks for reading. I like this talking about birds – they make me happy when nothing else does. me, too.  I like butterflies, too.  I used to have 2 butterfly gardens, but surrendered them to the weeds during a couple years of depression. One is totally gone, but the other is probably salvageable.  Maybe I’ll go out there one of these days and try to start rehabilitating it.

do you have any recommendations for plants (for next year)? i love butterflies. i have since i was a kid. i used to know quite a bit about them but i’ve forgotten most of it. i’ve never known which plants attract butterflies. TIA (thanks in advance), e — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

What mdove said and also – bergamot, beebalm, monarda (all names for the same thing) – hummingbirds love those, too. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip Thanks for reading. I like this talking about birds – they make me happy when nothing else does. me, too.  I like butterflies, too.  I used to have 2 butterfly gardens, but surrendered them to the weeds during a couple years of depression. One is totally gone, but the other is probably salvageable.  Maybe I’ll go out there one of these days and try to start rehabilitating it. do you have any recommendations for plants (for next year)? i love butterflies. i have since i was a kid. i used to know quite a bit about them but i’ve forgotten most of it. i’ve never known which plants attract butterflies. TIA (thanks in advance), e — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

snip do you have any recommendations for plants [that attract butterflies]? Well, keep in mind that I’m no expert, and it probably depends on where you live.  You might try some verbena, buddleia (butterfly bush), pentas,

what are pentas? do they take much water? asters, and even marigolds.  In my yard I have blue porterweed, pentas, day lilies, passion flower, lantana, and some other stuff I can’t identify.  

i have day lilies. they grow well, although the ones in shade don’t flower much. is passion flower the same as passion vine (Passifloraceae)? thanks for the recommendations. i’ll try some of them. I know monarchs like milkweed, but I’ve never seen it growing around here, and haven’t tried planting any.  Your local cooperative extension could probably provide you with information about what to plant for butterflies that are inhabitants of your area.

thanks. e — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

Question:

Frank;   I think you missed my e-mail as well. You must have a full batch of e-mails at home in a seperate folder. I’m in for an Orange/Gold/Brown Clouser Deep Minnow/Crawdad. Let us know how many we need to tie up–and a Postal address for you. Thanks for being the swapmeister.   Dave M

Response:

Stan, don’t know what happened but I have yet to receive your post, and as well Bob Weinberger, Jamie Heim and Mike Connor.  Rest assured gentlemen, you are all on the list now.  Also, Chris Cook your name has been duly changed. Perhaps we can use roff and rofft as backup communication if the event this happens again.  Thank you all, an update to follow. Frank Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank: Did you miss my e-mail?  I sent you a message not 5 minutes after you posted the start of the swap…  Even put "FLYSWAP" in the subject like you asked? I signed up to do a dragonfly nymph, and my 14 year old son, Steve, signed up to do a Prince nymph. –Stan OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Add my name to the list of missed e-mails. Actually, I sent two. I would like to do an olive mountain midge. Tim Lysyk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stan, don’t know what happened but I have yet to receive your post, and as well Bob Weinberger, Jamie Heim and Mike Connor.  Rest assured gentlemen, you are all on the list now.  Also, Chris Cook your name has been duly changed. Perhaps we can use roff and rofft as backup communication if the event this happens again.  Thank you all, an update to follow. Frank Church Frank: Did you miss my e-mail?  I sent you a message not 5 minutes after you posted the start of the swap…  Even put "FLYSWAP" in the subject like you asked? I signed up to do a dragonfly nymph, and my 14 year old son, Steve, signed up to do a Prince nymph. –Stan OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Stan, don’t know what happened but I have yet to receive your post, and as well Bob Weinberger, Jamie Heim and Mike Connor.  Rest assured gentlemen, you are all on the list now.  Also, Chris Cook your name has been duly changed. Perhaps we can use roff and rofft as backup communication if the event this happens again.  Thank you all, an update to follow. Frank Church

and mine? Peter

Response:

Me three, Since his news reader seems to be better than his Email I Replied to this post. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Me too, apparently you missed mine as well. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de Frank: Did you miss my e-mail?  I sent you a message not 5 minutes after you posted the start of the swap…  Even put "FLYSWAP" in the subject like you asked? I signed up to do a dragonfly nymph, and my 14 year old son, Steve, signed up to do a Prince nymph. –Stan OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Frank, TBD is a technical term that roughly translates into "I haven’t a F(*&ing Clue what I’m going to tie – but I’ll tie something and I’ll try not to be the last one to submit my entries" Paul (to be determined)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That must be the famous Thorax Bodied Dunn.  I’m thinking of making it my first attempt at tying.  I’ll have to substitute a plastic Brillo pad for the Adelusian Grosebeak Hackle but it should work! — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! Alright Paul, you’re in for a TBD fly.  What’s a TBD fly, or am I gonna be sorry for asking? Frank C.

Response:

Orange/Gold/Brown Clouser Deep Minnow/Crawdad

And the fly is easier to tie than pronounce?

Response:

Stan;   Yeah–not only easier to tie than pronounce–but works like a charm for both Browns–for you Adipose fin fanatics–and Smallmouths for those of you of the cool/warmwater persuasion.   Dave

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stan, don’t know what happened but I have yet to receive your post, and as well Bob Weinberger, Jamie Heim and Mike Connor.  Rest assured gentlemen, you are all on the list now.  Also, Chris Cook your name has been duly changed. Perhaps we can use roff and rofft as backup communication if the event this happens again.  Thank you all, an update to follow. Frank Church Frank: Did you miss my e-mail?  I sent you a message not 5 minutes after you posted the start of the swap…  Even put "FLYSWAP" in the subject like you asked? I signed up to do a dragonfly nymph, and my 14 year old son, Steve, signed up to do a Prince nymph. –Stan OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

_____  How many does one tie of a pattern, by the way Frank? — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

uh…..anybody got a pattern for a Miller dry?  Where can I get a white magic marker?? Will whiteout work? — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

….uh, Wayne ol buddy, have you considered having Dianna tie the flies?  I hear wimmin have a natural propensity for doing close-in highly detailed work. Frank (jest trying to help) Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – uh…..anybody got a pattern for a Miller dry?  Where can I get a white magic marker?? Will whiteout work? — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Frank Church writes: OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Frank, put me down for a Bottom Dweller Caddis Worm.  <g Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Frank, Put me down for a TBD fly. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Okey dokie Dave, you’re down for a BDCW! Frank

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Frank Church writes: OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly Frank, put me down for a Bottom Dweller Caddis Worm.  <g Dave LaCourse Pirate and Bottom Dweller

Response:

Alright Paul, you’re in for a TBD fly.  What’s a TBD fly, or am I gonna be sorry for asking? Frank C.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Frank, Put me down for a TBD fly. Paul OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

That must be the famous Thorax Bodied Dunn.  I’m thinking of making it my first attempt at tying.  I’ll have to substitute a plastic Brillo pad for the Adelusian Grosebeak Hackle but it should work! — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright Paul, you’re in for a TBD fly.  What’s a TBD fly, or am I gonna be sorry for asking? Frank C.

Response:

Frank: Did you miss my e-mail?  I sent you a message not 5 minutes after you posted the start of the swap…  Even put "FLYSWAP" in the subject like you asked? I signed up to do a dragonfly nymph, and my 14 year old son, Steve, signed up to do a Prince nymph. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Frank, please could you change the name I am under (Richard Cook) to Chris Cook? That is my name but we had to register the e-mail address as Richard. Anyway, the pattern I will by tying for the fly swap will be a goldhead sawyers nymph. As long as this suits everyone I will get tying straight away! Happy new year to you all Regards Chris Cook

Response:

Frank, Like Stan, I also sent you an email right after you announced. I signed up to do a size 16 Biot & CDC Caddis.  Bob Weinberger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Frank,     Like the other two gents you seem to have missed my e-mail as well. I repiled shortly after your post went up. Anyhow, sign me up for a Mickey Finn (the greatest streamer of all time). I’ll include to more special flies for you to cover the Canadian postage. — Regards, Jamie  8^) http://clik.to/flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank, Like Stan, I also sent you an email right after you announced. I signed up to do a size 16 Biot & CDC Caddis.  Bob Weinberger OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

You tie as many as there are total swappers, minus one, unless you want one of your own flies sent back to you. Old Gray Swapmeister Stan, don’t know what happened but I have yet to receive your post, and as well Bob Weinberger, Jamie Heim and Mike Connor.  Rest assured gentlemen, you are all on the list now.  Also, Chris Cook your name has been duly changed. Perhaps we can use roff and rofft as backup communication if the event this happens again.  Thank you all, an update to follow. Frank Church

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank: Did you miss my e-mail?  I sent you a message not 5 minutes after you posted the start of the swap…  Even put "FLYSWAP" in the subject like you asked? I signed up to do a dragonfly nymph, and my 14 year old son, Steve, signed up to do a Prince nymph. –Stan OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly _____  How many does one tie of a pattern, by the way Frank? — (C) George Gehrke 2001 http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html    fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

My apologies Frank, and other swappers. I withdraw from the swap. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Mike Connor writes: My apologies Frank, and other swappers. I withdraw from the swap.

I understand.  I’ve been thinking the same. Dave

Response:

Me too, apparently you missed mine as well. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank: Did you miss my e-mail?  I sent you a message not 5 minutes after you posted the start of the swap…  Even put "FLYSWAP" in the subject like you asked? I signed up to do a dragonfly nymph, and my 14 year old son, Steve, signed up to do a Prince nymph. –Stan OK would-be flyswappers, here’s the first update for the 2nd Annual Great Frank Church……. RabbitStrip Flasher Bob Beardall……. "Queen of the Water" dry fly

Response:

Question:

Bob, Great stuff, loved the mental picture of you thanking the fish! David

(rest of great tale snipped) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I paused just long enough to thank the fish for contributing to my initiation into this odd fellowship, and sent it back to foraging.

Response:

Hi Bob – Great report! Brings to me memories of my first trout in Montana almost thirty years ago from the same area. It was caught on a spinning rig, but that in no way reduced the thrill for me. The trout jumped and put up a good fight, and though it was only a small fish, what a gas it was. Thanks for the report and rekindling those precious moments, and here’s to many more of the same for you -Charlie Miller

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A week and a half ago, I had a business trip that took me to Billings, MT for about a week.  Not wanting to squander an opportunity, I packed snip Bob Card

Response:

Bob, Great story.  The neat thing about fly fishing is not necessarily catching the fish.  It’s the experience being outdoors and just living the moment. Catching a fish is always a rush though no matter what big or little (although there’s a little more adrenlin with a larger fish). Also, trust your own instincts on picking out flies. I fished Henry’s Fork in Idaho last summer and must of bought $50 worth of flies that were recommended to me and overall didn’t have much success. I picked out a renegade fly on my own and that one worked!  I couldn’t match the hatch but I could match the catch! Regards, Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A week and a half ago, I had a business trip that took me to Billings, MT for about a week.  Not wanting to squander an opportunity, I packed the most basic of my fly-flinging gear, and set out with high hopes, trying to keep in mind all that I’ve gleaned from your exchanges in the past several months. With a couple days of "free" time, I did a little advance scouting, visited the local fly guy, and developed a plan.  I left early Sunday morning, driving through Red Lodge, and out to the spots on the West Fork (Rock Creek) that were suggested to me as starting places.  Brief version: lots of walking, lots of casting, a few that actually looked and felt right, and a wonderful morning of enjoying sun, trees, water, and recharging.  after a few hours of "casting practice", floating elk hair caddis and parachute adams into and through "fishy" spots, I finally felt a tug when a small trout grabbed the fly downstream just before I was to cast it.  Before I could do anything about it, he (or she) declined the fight, and disengaged from the hook, on which I had pinched the barb. I drove downstream a bit, fished several other spots, and then moved northwestward, back toward I-90.  Stopping along the way, I cast in a few places on the Stillwater, with no bites (that I noticed).  With darkness closing, I headed back to Billings for some dinner and rest before another day of work. Monday afternoon, I charged westward again, to Columbus and a small fly shop not far from the freeway.  The animated woman deftly tying small adams with pink indicators quickly steered me away from the hoppers I was eyeing, and recommended some blonde humpies, and a couple of larger patterns with bright yellow hues.  She also gave me a good idea for a place to walk in and find some spots that I would surely have to myself. Taking her advice, I collected the flies, and headed out to the access point, which I had actually found and tried the day before (with no success, of course).  Wading upstream, I cast to every spot that looked fishy, and many that did not, using first the small caddis with yellow underside and then the larger blonde humpy.  Finally, I watched in amazement as the fly disappeared in a swirl.  Somehow maintaining sanity, I waited the merest of moments before lightly tugging the rod and feeling the charge of energy from the other end of the line.  The fight (if you can call it that) was brief, the fish was small and unremarkable, except for the remarkable fact that it was the first fish I had convinced to scarf up a fly and stay connected long enough to come face to face with me.  I paused just long enough to thank the fish for contributing to my initiation into this odd fellowship, and sent it back to foraging.  Further casting resulted only in more practice so, again with darkness closing, I walked back to the car and headed back to the city.  I sat with my jeans still soaked to the knees and ate in the Mackenzie River Pizza Company in Billings, rewarding myself with a slice of raspberry cheesecake. From some perspectives, not a spectacular tale of fishing.  However, for a new initiate, a most memorable outing indeed.  Some things I learned: 1. With free advice, you get what you pay for.  Purchasing some flies, floatant, leaders, or other minor necessities, a rapport can often be established with the local pusher which may result in a more successful effort. 2. A topographical map, such as the state atlas/gazeteer published by Delorme can be very helpful indeed. 3. (learned before, but frequently forgotten) sometimes not catching fish is a good day fishing. Thanks, all for the continued comments, debate, humor, etc. that make this place such a good place in which to hang. Bob Card

Response:

<excellent trip report snipped Congratulations Bob and thanks for the great story.  One little bit of advice though…..next time throw in a line or two about your own impeccable taste in intoxicating beverages and a few disparaging comments on the so-called taste of your brethren.  This always jazzes up a story nicely!

Response:

Nice post Bob, Keep it up and soon you won’t be able to count em : ) I personally just lie to myself either way. Tim Apple

Response:

A week and a half ago, I had a business trip that took me to Billings, MT for about a week.  Not wanting to squander an opportunity, I packed the most basic of my fly-flinging gear, and set out with high hopes, trying to keep in mind all that I’ve gleaned from your exchanges in the past several months. With a couple days of "free" time, I did a little advance scouting, visited the local fly guy, and developed a plan.  I left early Sunday morning, driving through Red Lodge, and out to the spots on the West Fork (Rock Creek) that were suggested to me as starting places.  Brief version: lots of walking, lots of casting, a few that actually looked and felt right, and a wonderful morning of enjoying sun, trees, water, and recharging.  after a few hours of "casting practice", floating elk hair caddis and parachute adams into and through "fishy" spots, I finally felt a tug when a small trout grabbed the fly downstream just before I was to cast it.  Before I could do anything about it, he (or she) declined the fight, and disengaged from the hook, on which I had pinched the barb. I drove downstream a bit, fished several other spots, and then moved northwestward, back toward I-90.  Stopping along the way, I cast in a few places on the Stillwater, with no bites (that I noticed).  With darkness closing, I headed back to Billings for some dinner and rest before another day of work. Monday afternoon, I charged westward again, to Columbus and a small fly shop not far from the freeway.  The animated woman deftly tying small adams with pink indicators quickly steered me away from the hoppers I was eyeing, and recommended some blonde humpies, and a couple of larger patterns with bright yellow hues.  She also gave me a good idea for a place to walk in and find some spots that I would surely have to myself. Taking her advice, I collected the flies, and headed out to the access point, which I had actually found and tried the day before (with no success, of course).  Wading upstream, I cast to every spot that looked fishy, and many that did not, using first the small caddis with yellow underside and then the larger blonde humpy.  Finally, I watched in amazement as the fly disappeared in a swirl.  Somehow maintaining sanity, I waited the merest of moments before lightly tugging the rod and feeling the charge of energy from the other end of the line.  The fight (if you can call it that) was brief, the fish was small and unremarkable, except for the remarkable fact that it was the first fish I had convinced to scarf up a fly and stay connected long enough to come face to face with me.  I paused just long enough to thank the fish for contributing to my initiation into this odd fellowship, and sent it back to foraging.  Further casting resulted only in more practice so, again with darkness closing, I walked back to the car and headed back to the city.  I sat with my jeans still soaked to the knees and ate in the Mackenzie River Pizza Company in Billings, rewarding myself with a slice of raspberry cheesecake. From some perspectives, not a spectacular tale of fishing.  However, for

a new initiate, a most memorable outing indeed.  Some things I learned: 1. With free advice, you get what you pay for.  Purchasing some flies, floatant, leaders, or other minor necessities, a rapport can often be established with the local pusher which may result in a more successful effort. 2. A topographical map, such as the state atlas/gazeteer published by Delorme can be very helpful indeed. 3. (learned before, but frequently forgotten) sometimes not catching fish is a good day fishing. Thanks, all for the continued comments, debate, humor, etc. that make this place such a good place in which to hang. Bob Card

Response:

Good post, Bob, and quite full of wisdom. Congrats! /daytripper

[good story shortened] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -From some perspectives, not a spectacular tale of fishing.  However, for a new initiate, a most memorable outing indeed.  Some things I learned: 1. With free advice, you get what you pay for.  Purchasing some flies, floatant, leaders, or other minor necessities, a rapport can often be established with the local pusher which may result in a more successful effort. 2. A topographical map, such as the state atlas/gazeteer published by Delorme can be very helpful indeed. 3. (learned before, but frequently forgotten) sometimes not catching fish is a good day fishing. Thanks, all for the continued comments, debate, humor, etc. that make this place such a good place in which to hang.

Response:

A week and a half ago, I had a business trip that took me to Billings, MT for about a week.  Not wanting to squander an opportunity, I packed the most basic of my fly-flinging gear, and set out with high hopes, trying to keep in mind all that I’ve gleaned from your exchanges in the past several months.

<snip Thanks, all for the continued comments, debate, humor, etc. that make this place such a good place in which to hang.

Bob: That was a great post.  You’ve got the routine down pat, now.  You just need more opportunity. If your work ever brings you to Utah, give a shout.  I know a stream or two where you might be able to get your *third* trout Bob Before you buy.

Response:

Allright Bob Card. You are now a confirmed odd feller, and by the authority usurped by me I now and forever more delare you one more friend of the angle, a fly fisher well met, set, sealed and approved. It just gets better and better. Congratulations. Seriously. Dave Someone had to do it, what with half the official greeting committee probably self medicated this late in the day.

Response:

Great story and some important lessons learned. sf

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A week and a half ago, I had a business trip that took me to Billings, MT for about a week.  Not wanting to squander an opportunity, I packed the most basic of my fly-flinging gear, and set out with high hopes, trying to keep in mind all that I’ve gleaned from your exchanges in the past several months. With a couple days of "free" time, I did a little advance scouting, visited the local fly guy, and developed a plan.  I left early Sunday morning, driving through Red Lodge, and out to the spots on the West Fork (Rock Creek) that were suggested to me as starting places.  Brief version: lots of walking, lots of casting, a few that actually looked and felt right, and a wonderful morning of enjoying sun, trees, water, and recharging.  after a few hours of "casting practice", floating elk hair caddis and parachute adams into and through "fishy" spots, I finally felt a tug when a small trout grabbed the fly downstream just before I was to cast it.  Before I could do anything about it, he (or she) declined the fight, and disengaged from the hook, on which I had pinched the barb. I drove downstream a bit, fished several other spots, and then moved northwestward, back toward I-90.  Stopping along the way, I cast in a few places on the Stillwater, with no bites (that I noticed).  With darkness closing, I headed back to Billings for some dinner and rest before another day of work. Monday afternoon, I charged westward again, to Columbus and a small fly shop not far from the freeway.  The animated woman deftly tying small adams with pink indicators quickly steered me away from the hoppers I was eyeing, and recommended some blonde humpies, and a couple of larger patterns with bright yellow hues.  She also gave me a good idea for a place to walk in and find some spots that I would surely have to myself. Taking her advice, I collected the flies, and headed out to the access point, which I had actually found and tried the day before (with no success, of course).  Wading upstream, I cast to every spot that looked fishy, and many that did not, using first the small caddis with yellow underside and then the larger blonde humpy.  Finally, I watched in amazement as the fly disappeared in a swirl.  Somehow maintaining sanity, I waited the merest of moments before lightly tugging the rod and feeling the charge of energy from the other end of the line.  The fight (if you can call it that) was brief, the fish was small and unremarkable, except for the remarkable fact that it was the first fish I had convinced to scarf up a fly and stay connected long enough to come face to face with me.  I paused just long enough to thank the fish for contributing to my initiation into this odd fellowship, and sent it back to foraging.  Further casting resulted only in more practice so, again with darkness closing, I walked back to the car and headed back to the city.  I sat with my jeans still soaked to the knees and ate in the Mackenzie River Pizza Company in Billings, rewarding myself with a slice of raspberry cheesecake. From some perspectives, not a spectacular tale of fishing.  However, for a new initiate, a most memorable outing indeed.  Some things I learned: 1. With free advice, you get what you pay for.  Purchasing some flies, floatant, leaders, or other minor necessities, a rapport can often be established with the local pusher which may result in a more successful effort. 2. A topographical map, such as the state atlas/gazeteer published by Delorme can be very helpful indeed. 3. (learned before, but frequently forgotten) sometimes not catching fish is a good day fishing. Thanks, all for the continued comments, debate, humor, etc. that make this place such a good place in which to hang. Bob Card

Response:

Question:

In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw.

Great Caesar’s Ghost!  What happened?  Was the chain saw running?  If it was, he certainly wasn’t trying to be sneaky.    Robert

Response:

goodnight Tokyo Rose: The dolly llama has been shorn. I hear they make great sweaters and the meat aint all that bad too eat either. just remember life is only as big as your wardrobe:)

Response:

Sorry about the misfortune, but as someone stated – it is relatively uncommon. I remember being robbed in the Dublin Youth Hostel. It was a six-bed-dorm and I have put my trekking jacket between me and the wall and it was gone the next morning…boy, I was so mad and disappointed. But out there, it never happened to me and I have done camping all over Europe. I am sure that everybody will keep the core valuables always at the body anyway, right. You need to put the trust in others, or you may prefer to stop doing hikes and that will be a real loss. Relax, hike and keep your eyes open! Tim

Response:

: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc.. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".

                                     snip< Generally agree with both of you. My thinking trends toward the idea that the "good old days" is a myth. Would anyone here consider taking a solo trip on a main highway in medieval Europe?  Not without a prominent display of arms I hope. The further back you look, the worse it was.  Certainly there are many regions today where you still take your chances.  Robbers in Guatemala, Taxi drivers in Mexico City who rob their fares, and fanatic separatists in the Himalaya who have beheaded western trekkers. I still feel safer in the relatively benign North American backcountry than in any large North American city.   – Robert

Response:

I’ve found that anything that charges a fee, however small, to get in is quieter and better behaved than anything that doesn’t.  Anything that has an official occasionally in sight is quieter and better behaved.  Our State Parks are safer than my home neighborhood.  Our State Forests, however, are the one place I’ve had serious trouble and where the formal campsites are ‘party-’til-you-puke’ fav spots for local youth.  That said, I’d still say that most of the State Forest sites are wonderful  and mostly safer than my home neighborhood (is it time I moved?)   General putins for lakes and rivers and popular trailheads in the mid part of the state are iffy.  If there’s a State Park to leave my vehicle in, I’d generally rather paddle a couple of miles extra rather than leave my vehicle at a couple of the putins I’ve tried.  Not had any trouble, but too much of a place that anyone can drive into and more troubled (or partying) youth problems and some extra of weirdos.  There’s at least one place near a fav river that’d be perfect to put my little kayak in at.  Except for the broken beer and booze bottles and the sickening smell of the trash heap that’s occasionally used for bonfires.  I’ve driven down to it, gotten out and looked and driven right away.  Local vehicles might be safe there, but I’m pretty sure mine wouldn’t be.  In fact, when I paddle or hike past it, I never even see local vehicles, which is another bad sign. However, up by the BWAC, I’ve seen trailheads/putins with every yuppie vehicle one could imagine, all looking  perfectly fine except for the dust on some that shows they’ve been there for at least a full week. Down in mid state and lower I’ve left my own vehicle for days at a time with perfect safety and heard little of any problems. Look before you park or camp.  Most places are safe.  Some are obviously not.  Think before you leave your vehicle.  If possible, find out about the local area.  Try asking at the nearest small convenience store.  Look around if there’s any housing nearby.  Does it look as if it costs a bit and is well maintained?  Then they’ll be even more anxious than you for the place to be safe.  Realize that crime, like lightning, can strike anywhere, but it’s got some favorite places.  Try to learn the signs.  If it strikes anyway, try to be philosophical about it if you live through it.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | private park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

: You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old : not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them : has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society : is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more : aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez : Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase. I agree that the whole notion of the "good old days" is nothing more than selective memory and wishful thinking.  I always wonder exactly when were the "good old days".  Assuming they are supposed to be post industrial revolution… looking at the 1900’s… excluding various wars, the Great Depression, etc, what’s left?  The 1950’s?  Maybe if you were a white male.  In any case, hardly representative of our country’s past. — Dave Hinds

Response:

: How disheartening! : My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent : Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared : campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to : become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. : While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! I’d reckon the that a brandnew shiny car would be more likely to be broken into than an old heap. —    "do the boogie woogie in the South American way"                            Rhumba Boogie- Hank Snow (1955)

Response:

| We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to | consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, | priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates | now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance | of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, | you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. | Happy Trails, | Joyce National Forests are not necessarily "safe". In my state (NH) we have had many incidents of trouble at National Forest campgrounds (some of these being "backcountry" sites), mainly caused by drunkeness. In one case a guy went after people in another nearby tent with a chain saw. Car break-ins at trailheads are extremely common here also.

Response:

We have camped for years and never have had an incident, so try to consider this unusual.  You should be fine if you go to a state park, priviate park or National Forest. Alot of the parks have locked gates now. (you get the combo)  If you "boondock" you stand more of a chance of being vandalized or tormented.  Be positive about your future plans, you will enjoy the outdoors, I’m sure. Happy Trails, Joyce

Response:

Eddie Babin wrote It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed

It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

Response:

… It is pretty shocking to hear about people being robbed in the bush camping. I live in Canada and I have heard about a cabin being broken into but never a tent in a camp site. I often go camping/hiking as far in to the wilderness as I can go and even though I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

Becoming? I don’t have any reason to think that things are getting any worse. There is a part in each of us, some more than others, who will prey on others and behave opportunistically, particularly when the chances of being caught are virtually zero. Witness rioting and looting in cities after sporting matches, looting when public order breaks down after a natural disaster, and those itinerant cowboys and trappers who carried their heavy, short range 6-guns — they had them, not for fun, but to enforce their understanding of fairness, at least for 50 yards in all directions. Most people in the backcountry, like most people in the city, will treat you pretty generously, and certainly not rip you off. But the risk is always there, so don’t bet your lunch money (or your backcountry survival) on the goodness of your fellow man or woman. — Jeff ORBS Classifieds – Free outdoor classified ads     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs ORBS Escrow – Affordable safety for online buyers and sellers     http://home.pacbell.net/orbs/oe-homepage.html

Response:

You’ve got to read more history.  Read about the really old not-so-good days of the areas you wander through.  Every one of them has stories of murders, thefts, some have cannibalism, etc..  Society is not necessarily becoming something.  You may just be becoming more aware.  For really good old fashioned fun, read about the old Natchez Trace.  You’d not have gone near it in its true ‘wilderness’ phase.

 I sometimes rarely see other people, when I do I am usually more wary. How sad is society becoming!

—– I’m going to live forever or die trying. I only answer my email every few months, on average.   Patience helps.   http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

: While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only : concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by : others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. : This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend : access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance : from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a : time. : Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping : our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the : camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! It’s a tragedy it’s come to this where the only person in hundreds of square miles may be one you can’t trust.  I don’t know if anyone has provided any real statistical evidence but it’s my firm belief that you are much less likely to encounter people problems in the backcountry than anywhere else.  As a matter of fact, there’s no place I feel safer.  That, however, does not quell my apprehension about trail head parking. ed — | 21st Century Systems -+- http://www.tf-centsys.com |

Response:

You cached them to keep them from being stolen in the first place, yet you imply your faith/trust in your fellow man is somehow diminished and ask how far you have to go in hiding your cache?  Did you lock your vehicle?  If so, why?

Response:

How disheartening! My wife and I have decided to begin camping this year and through recent Christmas and birthday gifts, accumulated enough gear to be fairly prepared campers.  This year will consist mostly of car camping, with aspirations to become backpackers as our experience and skills accumulate. While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. This is a special concern since one of our major motives to camp is weekend access to great fly fishing.  Plans to do so would have us both a distance from camp while fishing and no eyes on our site and gear for hours at a time. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject! Thanks! –Andy Charlotte, NC

Response:

How disheartening! While the lure of camping and the wilderness are strong to us, the only concern that we still have is that of being robbed or (worse) harassed by others.  Your disappointing story only strengthens this concern. Can any of the experienced members of the group offer suggestions to keeping our campsite and gear secure to prevent such occurrences?  Of all the camping & outdoors books we’ve read, none address the subject!

First let me re-inforce what I understood about the original post:   The theift was by, persons who were given to vandelism and thieft. IE: the gate was broken open as well as the items stolen. This is not common, IMHO, to many camping situations.  I have been car camping off and on for 20 years.  I have yet to be victim of a thieft, except by raccoons and squirles who help themselves to unsecured food. I am a car camper and have primarily used state camp grounds which are pretty well petroled.   I also find it interesting that when talk of camping security is brought up, no one seems to be concerned at all about the home they have left miles behind.   It does seem to me that an unprotected house  abandoned for a week or more would be a much easier target than a campsite where people are at had and may re-appear at any moment.  Yet no one is the least bit alarmed by leaving thier home, but fearful nearly to the point of panic about their camp site, or am I just nieve? But the case remains the same, I do not know that their is any absolute safeguard against people who are determined to be criminal. Whether the domicile is permanent or temporary. Fortuantely I choose to believe, and have discovered that criminals are still in the manority {except in Washington, DC }. Regards David Ronk To reply via e-mail remove "not_" from address.     By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer      meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)      (1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to      such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary      loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for EACH violation.    Please do not send unsolicited commercial mail to my email account.

Response:

David, Sorry to read about your snowshoe theft at Dolly Sods. I’ve visited there dozens of times without incident (though not in the winter). I hope yours was an isolated incident. I’d suggest that the idiot(s) who broke down the gate may not have been the same ones to steal your stuff. The gate-breaking sounds like the act of some yahoo who’s just pissed off to find a closed road, thinking (wrongly) that he has a right to travel that road. I can certainly imagine that the same dickweed, in his pissed off state, would also be given to stealing someone else’s gear. However, I’d also bet that the sort of loser who would ram a gate with his car couldn’t be bothered to walk 100 feet off road to find your snowshoes–unless they were clearly visible from the road (but sounds like they weren’t). I’m thinking somebody probably just stumbled across them, and thought they were "easy pickings." Again, sorry; and thanks for the warning–I’ll be more careful there in the future. Rob

Response:

January 25th, 1999 This past weekend, John, Jeff and I set out from Maryland on a four-hour drive to Monongahela National Forest, in West Virginia.  Expecting winter weather, John and I brought our new, unused Yuba XSV-32’s, while our friend Jeff brought along some snowshoes that he had rented from REI (just in case anyone hears anything, they were Atlas 1033’s (9" x 29")).  When we got to Dolly Sods on Thursday evening, the final gate on SR 75, about 3 miles from the plateau, was locked.  There were about three inches of wet snow on the road surface, so thinking that there would be more up on the plateau, we strapped snowshoes to our packs and headed up.  Once up on top, a warm wind and melting permafrost greeted us.  We hastily made camp, since we had arrived after sundown, and bedded down for the night.  In the morning, we packed up our gear, took a look at the forecast, and decided to stash the snowshoes.  We chose a location 100 feet away from the road and well shielded by dense pine trees and stashed the

Question:

thanks for clarifying those aspects of your post I didn’t quite grasp re: comets. here in rainy BC we don’t get to see the sky much! Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :   : : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers : :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers : :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : : : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : : exceeds the resources capacity!   : : : Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to : many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in : only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and : expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.   : Whoever the elite are?  Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the : SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite?  Are : your own irrational prejudices showing through?  Personally I have never : hired a guide.        I have, made me feel elite and I did not necessarily like it.  Point is that the outfitters do create limits on access to the people not wishing to spend that kind of money. : Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do : now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible : for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water.        Neither do I.  I do not mind if the access is equally open to all of us, however the local outfitters are capable of and frequently do consume all the access available on private-fee fisheries and thus make the effective cost much,much higher.  That prices the opportunity out of reach for most. : My point is:  Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few : waters.  To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all : waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, : force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen.        I do not, nor have I ever advocated **forcing** anyone to kill.  I limit my kill to as low a level as I can.  I have not consumed a trout for food in as long as I can remember.  I advocate allowing limited harvest rather than pure C&R.  I thought my post had made that clear. : I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to : reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain : general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow : individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints.        This is precisely what I meant to say, only I argue that pure C&R is not the only approach and in most cases, it is unjustifyable. : If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching!        Thanks, but I prefer comets. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

:   : : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers : :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers : :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : : : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : : exceeds the resources capacity!   : : : Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to : many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in : only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and : expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.   : Whoever the elite are?  Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the : SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite?  Are : your own irrational prejudices showing through?  Personally I have never : hired a guide.         I have, made me feel elite and I did not necessarily like it.  Point is that the outfitters do create limits on access to the people not wishing to spend that kind of money. : Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do : now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible : for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water.         Neither do I.  I do not mind if the access is equally open to all of us, however the local outfitters are capable of and frequently do consume all the access available on private-fee fisheries and thus make the effective cost much,much higher.  That prices the opportunity out of reach for most. : My point is:  Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few : waters.  To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all : waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, : force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen.         I do not, nor have I ever advocated **forcing** anyone to kill.  I limit my kill to as low a level as I can.  I have not consumed a trout for food in as long as I can remember.  I advocate allowing limited harvest rather than pure C&R.  I thought my post had made that clear. : I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to : reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain : general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow : individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints.         This is precisely what I meant to say, only I argue that pure C&R is not the only approach and in most cases, it is unjustifyable. : If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching!         Thanks, but I prefer comets. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

No Tim, I haven’t been lulled into anything. It’s a personal belief that has grown and matured during my 20 years of flyfishing. If C&R is done properly, i.e without touching the fish when possible and reducing the time of the fight, it beats the hell out of C&K. You’re right about one thing – it is best to leave them alone. Knocking everything you catch on the head is however both much more disrespectful to the pray than letting them go, and is simply a practise that belongs to the past. Sincerely, Hans Edman, Umea, Sweden

Response:

No Tim, I haven’t been lulled into anything. It’s a personal belief that has grown and matured during my 20 years of flyfishing. If C&R is done properly, i.e without touching the fish when possible and reducing the time of the fight, it beats the hell out of C&K. You’re right about one thing – it is best to leave them alone. Knocking everything you catch on the head is however both much more disrespectful to the pray than letting them go, and is simply a practise that belongs to the past.

Hans – You can’t seriously debate with someone who *screams* about how heinous it is to scar a fish’s face and then let it go, but who freely admits to dragging fish around on a stringer while float-tubing because it keeps them fresh. Hell, use of a priest to euthanize the fish would be much *more* respectful and considerate than that. The *only* thing important to this guy is to go on feeling good about his right to kill fish when and wherever he wants. Don’t waste your breath treating with him or your time thinking he has a coherent point to argue. Only day before yesterday, Tim W said: ….and now I’m movin’ on…you either get it or you don’t…

And this, in debate terms, is called ‘begging the question’. I rest my case. and then said: No more C&R diatribe from me…

QED I am only trying to clue you in because I don’t recall seeing your name on posts before (forgive me if I am mistaken). I am probably rash in posting this, because, as you may have observed, we’ve been trying to shut debate on this topic down for a while (and maybe drop the animosity level a notch or two). May work, may not. Here’s hoping. — Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Home #: (405)359-1556 Work #: (405)936-2389 "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

Response:

Lon Hall writes: Hans – You can’t seriously debate with someone who *screams* about how heinous it is to scar a fish’s face and then let it go, but who freely admits to dragging fish around on a stringer while float-tubing because it keeps them fresh. Hell, use of a priest to euthanize the fish would be much *more* respectful and considerate than that. The *only* thing important to this guy is to go on feeling good about his right to kill fish when and wherever he wants. Don’t waste your breath treating with him or your time thinking he has a coherent point to argue.

(snip) I am only trying to clue you in because I don’t recall seeing your name on posts before (forgive me if I am mistaken). I am probably rash in posting this, because, as you may have observed, we’ve been trying to shut debate on this topic down for a while (and maybe drop the animosity level a notch or two).

Thanks Lon, for dropping the animosity level down a notch or two. jim

Response:

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ?

Sounds like your argument is "If you hook it, kill it – otherwise don’t fish". Gee, I sure hope you never lose control of a cast and end up hooking yourself.  "Yipes!  Hooked myself!  Better go shoot myself now…" <BANG!  <thud  (I can see the obituary page now – "Catch and Kill Fisherman Was True To His Sport".  :-) If I followed that logic where I fish most often I’d soon be out of fish.  It’s a small pond that probably has only a dozen or so good-sized bass in it.  If I killed each one I caught there wouldn’t be many left now, so I put ‘em back after I catch ‘em. My point is that what’s correct for you may not be correct for others in different situations, and vice versa.  Ah well, diff’rent strokes and all… — Bob Jarvis Mail addresses hacked to foil automailers! Remove ‘_spamless’ from reply address

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

           TIM,    IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU JUST WROTE THAN YOU SHOULD RESPECT THE FISH AND QUIT TRYING TO CATCH THEM  OR ARE YOU JUST ANOTHER  HYPOCRITE WHO LIKES TO HEAR HIMSELF PASS GAS.                    HARV

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip : – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE :    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT :   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY :     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! : You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of : others! <snip Tim, correct me if I am wrong….  I is my understanding from reading Tim’s posts, that he does not oppose releasing a fish…  But rather opposes the existence of *pure* C&R fisheries.  Pure C&R fisheries lead to many evils, scarred & damaged fish, unusuall

Tim has certainly stated clearly that by lottery or by some enforced c&k regulation on all waters he wants to see fishing pressure reduced to the minimum number of anglers per mile. he has been all over the map on how to do this but Tim clearly has a prejudice against others who use the waters in ways he does not favour and will stoop to all sorts of regulations etc to get them off so he can enjoy his sport on his terms at their expense. : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : exceeds the resources capacity!   Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.  

Whoever the elite are? Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite? Are your own irrational prejudices showing through? Personally I have never hired a guide. Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water. My point is: Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few waters. To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen. I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints. After jousting with Don Quixote for a number of months I still don’t know what his bottom line is or what he is really after. I find increasingly I am dealing with a point of view that is self righteous, closed minded, hypocritical, sees the resource and the sport as exclusively for those that share the point of view and shifts and gets more radical as one finds legitimate criticism of it’s basic proposals. I also find it is a point of view that assumes it has a sort of papal infallability and is beyond criticism. just look at his response to the criticism of his use of stringers. Any level of agony inflicted on fish is justified as long as he is the one who is inflicting it! Because he eats the catch he has given himself carte blanche to something approaching sadism. If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching! Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature

Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

<snip : – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE :    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT :   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY :     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! : You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of : others! <snip Tim, correct me if I am wrong….  I is my understanding from reading Tim’s posts, that he does not oppose releasing a fish…  But rather opposes the existence of *pure* C&R fisheries.  Pure C&R fisheries lead to many evils, scarred & damaged fish, unusually crowded and overfished stretches of rivers, and the threat of PETA attacking our sport.   We could change the regulation to a slot limit on most pure C&R fisheries without diminishing the fish significantly and then allow the taking of the older, scarred up fish.  This *for me* would much improve the fishing experience because I personally do not like catching torn up scarred up fish like you find consistently in the locations listed below.

:       There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters: :       The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi. :       The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway. :       The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon. :       If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these :       places then you will never ever understand the truth.   : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : exceeds the resources capacity!   We already have a few lottery situations in the regulations of hunting.  I believe this will ultimately become a necessary solution if the popularity of fishing continues to increase at the rate we have seen in the past few years. While I would not like the restriction of access at all, I would enjoy the fishing experience much more assuming the lottery is fairly administered. This however will not happen because the outfitters will demand an unfair share of the access to maintain their businesses.   Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.  Also, *I believe* lottery systems will unfairly favor the guides who will find ways to obtain more than their fair share of access permits to further their business. You can argue that a lottery system already exists in this way….  First to a fishing hole gets the spot.  The guides on many rivers in our area arrive very early (or have a paid flunky get there) and stake out the best fishing holes on the river.  They bring their sports (elitists who have the bucks to hire a guide to grab and hold the best water) to these spots and stay there all day.  You will find this happening alot on the Pan and So Platte.  On the floatable rivers, the guides get more than their fair share for float permits, thus again limiting access to the elite. These are complex problems which will get nothing but worse as population increases in our area.  I fish now and enjoy it very much, but I do not expect to fish nearly as much in the future as the quality of the experience continues to diminish with the pressure of multitudes.  One can only hope that Hollywood does not make another movie about flyfishing. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim, you should change your handle to Don Quioxte; you put so much effort into tilting at wind mills! TimW writes:    The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie    throws snowballs at it.. [snip] Your dog poop "thing" reminds me of a funny story: A friend went to complain to his neighbour about the neighbours dog crapping on his lawn. As they stood discussing the issue – of course the neighbour contested his dog would never do such a thing – the dog wandered over into my friends yard and dumped in plain sight of both of them. That’s exactly what’s happened here!    You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals    only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal    in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. [snip] By your gut you refer to your stomach no doubt – your great arbitrator of ethical issues. If there is an ethical issue ( and you’ve never even tried to establish why there is one) it is far more complex than you make out – or even have attempted to comprehend; (Oh sorry Tim this may be an insult but then I’m just calling them as I see them – <BEG)    The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in    the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into    thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for    fun. Whatever that carnage may be if it exists anywhere but in your imagination remains to be defined and exposed; get off your duff and do it  - maybe I’ll come around to your point of view! [snip]    You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number    of and size of fish. This is the part where YOUR dog craps on my lawn in plain sight of everyone who has a look; I made no such insistence; I usually choose less uncrowded waters populated with fewer fish to have some peace- BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE- I’m not out to stuff my choice down anyone’s throat.  The fish I catch are often a pound or less when I could easily go elsewhere to catch pickup loads of fish bigger than you have ever seen. – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE   WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT  LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY    THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of others! If that isn’t greed what is? Any greed associated with catch and release pales beside that old chum. You know Tim I hoped you could do better than these dreary ad hominium arguments – but perhaps you’ve picked up the habit from some my fellow c&r’ers who couldn’t do better either.    There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters:    The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi.    The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway.    The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon.    If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these    places then you will never ever understand the truth.   So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access exceeds the resources capacity!   But I will never support lottery access so some catch and kill elitists can get all the rivers to themselves, so they can kill a few fish but bar those who’d let them go! The very essence of the sport has to be that given a set of regulations the angler gets to choose how he pursues his sport. This was the meaning of Haig Browns "the Law Breaker" if we are forced to kill then we are only instruments of harvest not sports fishers.    Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries    management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen    per mile Gee who was that? Ralph H        TimW Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

                       Harv

Response:

Tim, you should change your handle to Don Quioxte; you put so much effort into tilting at wind mills!  TimW writes:

        The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie         throws snowballs at it.. [snip] Your dog poop "thing" reminds me of a funny story: A friend went to complain to his neighbour about the neighbours dog crapping on his lawn. As they stood discussing the issue – of course the neighbour contested his dog would never do such a thing – the dog wandered over into my friends yard and dumped in plain sight of both of them. That’s exactly what’s happened here!         You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals         only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal         in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. [snip] By your gut you refer to your stomach no doubt – your great arbitrator of ethical issues. If there is an ethical issue ( and you’ve never even tried to establish why  there is one) it is far more complex than you make out – or even have attempted to comprehend; (Oh sorry Tim this may be an insult but then I’m just calling them as I see  them – <BEG)         The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in         the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into         thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for         fun. Whatever that carnage may be if it exists anywhere but in your imagination remains to be defined and exposed; get off your duff and do it  - maybe I’ll come around to your point of view! [snip]         You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number         of and size of fish. This is the part where YOUR dog craps on my lawn in plain sight of everyone who has a look; I made no such insistence; I usually choose less uncrowded waters populated with fewer fish to have some peace- BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE- I’m not out to stuff my choice down anyone’s throat.  The fish I catch are often a pound or less when I could easily go  elsewhere to catch pickup loads of fish bigger than you have ever seen. – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of others! If that isn’t greed what is? Any greed associated with catch and release  pales beside that old chum. You know Tim I hoped you could do better than these dreary ad hominium arguments – but perhaps you’ve picked up the habit from some my fellow c&r’ers who couldn’t do better either.         There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters:         The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi.         The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway.         The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon.         If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these         places then you will never ever understand the truth.   So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access exceeds the resources capacity!   But I will never support lottery access so some catch and kill elitists  can get all the rivers to themselves, so they can kill a few fish but bar those who’d let them go! The very essence of the sport has to be that given a set of regulations the angler gets to choose how he pursues his sport. This was the meaning of Haig Browns "the Law Breaker" if we are forced to kill then we are only  instruments of harvest not sports fishers.         Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries         management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen         per mile Gee who was that? Ralph H         TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature and its limited resources. If I had to kill all the watery friends I manage to outwit, by imitating what they eat, by making a great cast, by reading the water or simply by persistance, then I would feel sick. It would be like having to kill the dog after walking it. Roughly… /Hans Edman, Umea, Sweden

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Yeah yeah yeah… The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie throws snowballs at it…you can leave the bitch out on a 20 below zero night and she still wags her tail at you in the morning.  Same thing if you stake her out in the hot August sun in Rifle.  You can be cruel as hell to a dog, they’ll still be around to crap on the lawn, man. But you know Ralph…I feel better that I do not kick her or tie her up in the sun and I feel better when she has water and food. You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. They do not exist purely for our pleasure, of that I am certain.  This is what MY gut tells me.   The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for fun. Why do you continue to ignore the efficacy of selective harvest as a workable concept in all fisheriy situations ? You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number of and size of fish.  This ONLY guarantees crowded conditions which nails the coffin of quality shut… There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters: The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi. The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway. The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon. If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these places then you will never ever understand the truth.   Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen per mile as possible.  Amazing.  Absolutely amazing.   TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Question:

please E-mail me of you are selling a float tube at a fair price I live in the Vancouver Area B.C Canada

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please E-mail me of you are selling a float tube at a fair price I live in the Vancouver Area B.C Canada

Testing testing

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Question:

Fish for Dolly Varden, wild trout, Steelhead, Salmon, and more! Join us at our logde for the fishing experience of a lifetime. Check out our web site at <http://www.libby.org/davis/welcome.html

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: Fish for Dolly Varden, wild trout, Steelhead, Salmon, and more! Join us : at our logde for the fishing experience of a lifetime. Check out our web : site at <http://www.libby.org/davis/welcome.html I feel  compelled to respond to the specific claims made on what species are available. My father visited camp Kiklukh last year during the latter part of August into the first few days of September.  He found that this is basically a one fish fishery, silver salmon. Of all the people in camp at the same time, there were only a handful of dolly varden caught and he *heard* of one cutthroat trout being caught. Now, I am not at all trying to be negative on the whole trip because that is not the case.  There were many parts of the trip that were fantastic.  George and Debbie Davis were described as outstanding people.  Of the places we have visited in Alaska, my father’s opinion of Camp Kiklukh was the  absolutely best food he has had and the best silver fishing.  If the fishing was poor around the camp, the anglers were flown out to the Tsiu at no additonal cost just to make sure they got into great numbers of silvers. As I said, I just wanted to clarify what species of fish are available in significant numbers at camp Kiklukh. Kind regards, Steve Kernosky  Ph.D. Michigan Tech University

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