Question:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband.

In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

In my case I paid for the setting and we used a stone she had (grandmothers, perhaps? I don’t recall and it doesn’t matter). I didn’t get the setting back; she never offered and I never asked because I didn’t want it. The setting was indeed a gift from me to her so I feel I have no claims on it. I would not have accepted it if she had offered it to me. My ring was a custom piece of jewelry we picked out together, though I paid for it so technically it wasn’t a gift from her. I gave it back to her without thinking twice about it. The fewer things I have in my life that remind me of her the better.

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..

EVERYTHING comes from da man, silly girl!    (If you don’t believe me, ask Andre or Ronnie44dd.   Whattas a matter with you, anyway)?    :-)

Response:

Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

If he is this bad, you can’t leave your children to his care, I know it is tempting to get revenge on him but think of your children, they will suffer more if you went to prison.  Get out, and get your children out.  There are organisations for abused wives, get one on your side and have them help you work this out. Mandy

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!! He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

The real abuse here is the abuse that you did to yourself by staying so long.  I hope you can learn to love yourself as much as you deserve. bogey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Leaving ======= General guidelines for leaving a spouse in the US. So you decided to end the marriage and are leaving the house. When it comes time to leave, there are certain things you should do in a certain order, to avoid confrontations with or violence from the spouse. Here’s how to do it. Some rules to follow when doing all these things: – Be polite when working with your spouse – Be fair. Take only 1/2 of what you both own. – It may be a good idea to buy a cassette recorder and put it in your shirt pocket when talking with your spouse. This is not usually admissable in court but it will give you some leverage against the spouse if they are acting loony, violent, or unfair. If the judge asks "Do you have proof your spouse is a loony?" you can mention the tapes. – If you think the spouse will get violent, call the police. Hide around the corner and when they come to the house, then go to the house. Tell the police you need them to watch your spouse while you pack. – If the spouse attacks you (even if a wife attacks a man) MAKE A POLICE REPORT. If you don’t have proof (a police report), it will not help you. Finding an apartment Make your budget. Find out the net amount of your paycheck you bring home each month (after taxes, you can’t spend the taxes, can you?). Now subtract rent, car insurance, phone, utilities, gas, food, clothes, entertainment, and any other expenses you can think of. If you have money left over, you are doing good. If not, find places to trim expense, like don’t go to the movies, cancel cable/satellite, don’t go out to eat, eat in instead, buy a cheaper car. Now find a cheap apartment and sign a lease. Packing up – You will need to get your names off credit cards VERY quickly, that means moving out first. – Try to pack your most valuable things first, like cash, life insurance policies, stock policies, records for your bank accounts, IRAs, and other retirement accounts. Make sure you pack some pens, pencils and a notebook, you will need these later. If you have joint accounts, take the papers, copy them at the library or somewhere else, then return them to the house. – Try to pack when the other spouse is not there, like when they are not at work, or when they are shopping. Have a friend along with a video camera in case they come home early. Hide your car around the block (it could be seen down the street so don’t hide it there) or use a friends car that is not well known. Pack your stuff in the friend’s car then transfer it to your car in a place the spouse does not go. – Remember to pack a suit, you will need it for court proceedings. Assets ====== Decide what possessions to take with you. Generally the state will divide up all the assets so each spouse gets an equal share based on the current sale value of the asset (like if you sold it at a garage sale). The person who gets the house gets the value of the equity of the house, so they will get a lot less other things. Equity is the assessed value of the house minus the loan amount. It is NOT the value of the house plus the amount you spent to improve it. Generally the state allows you to keep what you had before the marriage, and allows you to keep gifts that were only to you, but this is still part of the "equal share" that the two of you get. Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. DON’T DO THE NEXT STEPS UNTIL YOU’RE ALL PACKED UP and moved out. Separating Finances The basic finance separation is in several groups: – Assets – Bank accounts – Credit cards/debit card – Retirement accounts – Loans/mortgages 1. Bank accounts First, get your own account, have the statements mailed to work or a trusted friend’s house. You don’t want these new statements discovered by the soon to be ex (STBX). When that is final, figure out what half of the cash assets would be (include all money markets, savings and checking accounts, not retirement or IRA accounts). Take half the cash and put it into your new account. Take your name off the accounts if possible. If you need their signature to do this, call a lawyer and find out if there’s another way to do this. 2. Credit Cards People often run up huge debts on credit cards in anger. First, try to take your name off all credit cards. I was the primary holder of a credit card, which meant I could put my wife’s name on it, and take it off. She couldn’t do anything. If you’re not the primary holder, AND you can’t get your name off a credit card, talk to a lawyer and find out what can be done. If you can’t do that, lower the limit on every credit card to the minimum. You should be able to do this alone, but then again the spouse could raise it up again by themselves. Talk to the CC company to find out who can do what. Try to freeze the cards so no one can use them and tell the CC company you’ve seen suspicious activity on the cards or you think you’re identity has been stolen. As a last resort, cancel the cards if necessary, but TELL THE SPOUSE. You will look bad to the judge if you don’t tell them. Send them a letter so you have paper proof that you told them. 3. Retirement accounts Just start by taking your IRA papers with you. You can sort it all out later in court. Let the other spouse keep their retirement account. 4. Loans/mortgages I don’t know how these are handled. But if you keep your name on the loan you ARE responsible for it, whether you are divorced, separated or not. Try to get your name off the mortgage, but NOT off the title to the house. This is so the other can’t default on the mortgage and ruin your credit. The Car ======= If you each have a car, take the one that you use the most. If you have one car between you, the working spouse will generally get the car. Should you buy a new one? Generally, no, unless you just purchased a brand new car in the past year. Calculate the net worth of the car will help you. Net worth=Value of the car (get it from Kelly Blue Book on the web) – any loan outstanding. Here’s an example. Car A: bought 2 years ago, valued at $15,000, loan left is $13,000, so net worth is $2000. Basically, you have $13,000 in loans to pay off. If you can’t afford it, get a used car worth less than $13,000, say around $7000. Try to make small payments. This will cause you to pay more interest over the life of the loan, but you really need the cash right now. Car B: bought 5 years ago, valued at $5000, no loan outstanding. Net worth is $5000. This is the best deal, since you have no car payment in this case. Car C: new car bought last year, valued at $24,000, loan left: $25,000, net worth=-$1000. Even though this has a net worth, you still have $25,000 left in loans to pay. This is a bad deal because if you sell the car you will still have to pay $1000 to cover the loan and you will not get any money back because it has a negative net worth. Your best bet is to get a $7000 car, pay the extra $1000. Insurance for the used car will be less than for the new car anyway. What will make you look good to the judge: – If you are fair to the other spouse. (Divide assets equally. Don’t take their favorite baseball card collection just to be mean.) – If you don’t hit them, threaten them or damage their property. – If you don’t show bizarre behavior (like damaging the other’s property) – If you keep the spouse informed, like when you cancel the credit cards. – Getting the kids out of a violent home. (You must have PROOF of this violence as a recording, or police report.) What will make you look bad: – Not going to counseling when the spouse does. – Being unfair. – Being angry in court. – If you have a serious illness, like cancer, it will really reduce your chances to get the kids. – If you have a serious illness, like depression, which is not being treated, you will have a lesser chance to get the kids. – Doing drugs. – Having a police record. – Being known as the "one who’s always screaming" by the neighbors. – Having boy/girlfriends before the divorce is final. – Trying to hide assets from the spouse. – Having an affair during the marriage. (Shows lack of commitment.) – Not being real involved with the kids. – If you don’t have a job. – If you have trouble holding a job. Abuse claims Filing a false abuse claim is now illegal in some states, and it is even enforced sometimes. Find out the status of false abuse claims, perhaps by calling the police department. — "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST

ME!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

Response:

"DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

IF your children want to stay in the house regardless of the fact that he is mean to you then something is wrong. IF you want to stay in the house regardless of what HE is doing to YOU then there is something VERY WRONG!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these! SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

Huh?  How can you even think this about the man you just previously described? I think *you* would be abusive by letting him near your kids. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe he is abusing his children by not being here

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

Response:

I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!!  He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

I can not understand why you take all that shit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Once again, here’s the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "abuse": Main Entry: abuse      Pronunciation: &-’by

Question:

Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

Response:

Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

Don’t miss the Great Ocean Road. http://www.greatoceanroad.org/ My kids love the Adventure Playground in Warrnambool. Daniel — Daniel Bowen, Melbourne, Australia Visiting Australia FAQ http://www.custard.net.au/australia/

Response:

Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

That’s plenty of time.  As Daniel mentioned, don’t miss the Great Ocean Road.  You should also perhaps start by taking a run through the Flinders Ranges, perhaps as far up as Wilpena Pound.  A lot of people bag on Port Augusta but I quite like the place and there are some things that would be of interest to the kiddies – the Wadlata centre is pretty good (although the souvis are pretty pricey and poor value) and the Arid Lands Botanic Centre (hope I have that name right) is worth a squint if you’re into that sort of thing.  Spencer Gulf has some great sailing and fishing (check what’s in season, I’ve not been in December, yet).  The French Hot Bread place on Commercial St. is the best in the country. From there, I would head back down and across, taking the G.O.R.; then go up into the goldfields (Ballarat, Bendigo) which have theme areas and rebuilt "old time" streets, etc. which the kids should enjoy. Finally, keep a few days for each city.  I’m not normally a city person, but Adelaide does have some charms which take some time to grow on you (once you get used to all the churches).  Take a tram to Glenelg and spend some time on the beach (hopefully all that construction is finished by now) and be sure to take in the central market just off King William Square (at the other end of the tram).  With any luck (does anyone know?  I’m about a year out of date) the Don Bradman display will still be on in one of the buildings (library?) on North Tce. As for Melbourne, I haven’t spent enough time there yet to be knowledgeable about what’s the best use of time/best interest to kids but there will be lots.  It’s quite a charming city.  I’ll leave that to the natives. HTH

Response:

Hi if you go to see the litle penguins at Phillip Island try to get a night at AMAZING THINGS for the kids it is not spectacular but like i said it is good for the kids. Walter from Belgium — Swagmanneke( walter caremans) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices.

Response:

in message As for Melbourne, I haven’t spent enough time there yet to be knowledgeable about what’s the best use of time/best interest to kids but there will be lots.  It’s quite a charming city.  I’ll leave that to the natives.

Depends what they like. Off the top of my head… – tram rides (especially if you don’t have trams in your part of the world) – museum and Scienceworks http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/ – Puffing Billy steam train http://www.puffingbilly.com.au/ – penguins at Phillip Island http://www.penguins.org.au/ – Healesville sanctuary (native animals) and Melbourne Zoo http://www.zoo.org.au/ and plenty of parks and gardens to explore. Try browsing around http://melbourne.citysearch.com.au/ Daniel — Daniel Bowen, Melbourne, Australia Visiting Australia FAQ http://www.custard.net.au/australia/

Response:

Take your time on the Great Ocean Road.  It is a great view but you need time to enjoy it,  Don’t miss the twelve Apostles.   If you have time, check out Phillips Island and the penguin parade.  Phillips Island is on the opposite side of Melbourne from Adelaide. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Planning  a family trip with 2 kids (aged 5 & 7) and my wife during early December. We plan to start  off from Adelaide and fly back from Melbourne. Planning to hire a car and stay in the local B&Bs. Looking for suggestions, ideas or itinerary and advices. That’s plenty of time.  As Daniel mentioned, don’t miss the Great Ocean Road.  You should also perhaps start by taking a run through the Flinders Ranges, perhaps as far up as Wilpena Pound.  A lot of people bag on Port Augusta but I quite like the place and there are some things that would be of interest to the kiddies – the Wadlata centre is pretty good (although the souvis are pretty pricey and poor value) and the Arid Lands Botanic Centre (hope I have that name right) is worth a squint if you’re into that sort of thing.  Spencer Gulf has some great sailing and fishing (check what’s in season, I’ve not been in December, yet).  The French Hot Bread place on Commercial St. is the best in the country. From there, I would head back down and across, taking the G.O.R.; then go up into the goldfields (Ballarat, Bendigo) which have theme areas and rebuilt "old time" streets, etc. which the kids should enjoy. Finally, keep a few days for each city.  I’m not normally a city person, but Adelaide does have some charms which take some time to grow on you (once you get used to all the churches).  Take a tram to Glenelg and spend some time on the beach (hopefully all that construction is finished by now) and be sure to take in the central market just off King William Square (at the other end of the tram).  With any luck (does anyone know?  I’m about a year out of date) the Don Bradman display will still be on in one of the buildings (library?) on North Tce. As for Melbourne, I haven’t spent enough time there yet to be knowledgeable about what’s the best use of time/best interest to kids but there will be lots.  It’s quite a charming city.  I’ll leave that to the natives. HTH

Response:

Question:

There was a time when I used to bring a portable radio to listen to music.  During all this time, it seemed to me that the fishing was not as good.  So one day, I turned off the radio.  Lo and behold…..the fishing improved.

Ever been diving off of a boat that was playing a stereo.  You can hear the music as if it was next to you.  One time I was diving off of my boat and there was a dive boat about 30 yards away.  I could hear Bob Marley shooting the sheriff while I was down there.  It was great,  I was diving and listening to some good tunes…can’t beat that. JAC

Response:

i was in a small tournament one day on the chesapeake bay [maryland]… The tournament was for bragging rights only…and beer/hot dogs… We went to our spot to fish..anchored up with many other hopeful fishermen… I put on some ‘oldies ‘ FM station and passed out the beer as we sat with poles in the rod holders  and sot the bull about nothing…trivial things..  We were loud …and the music was turned up.   At times we  shouted   ‘fish-ON!’ ‘Get the net! ‘ When the day was over our boat landed the fish to win the day and the bragging rights for the whole year! I suppose your idea of quiet is good and best for most fishing [particularly in shallow waters or waters normally without a lot of shipping noise...] But there is some evidence [not in my hands] that noise attracts or gets the attention of fish.   So, if you have some delicious smell there at the same time I suppose there will be some to venture  to your fish hook and grab-it. Fishing is for fun….   Our local fish like rock-and -roll ! As for the sound waves projected from a fish finder…well each transducer is designed with a predetermined ‘frequency’   and it would be devastating to the manufacturer of  a fishfinder that is designed to transmit signals that piss off fish and scatter them away from the boat.   So, they would pay you big bucks to keep your mouth shut and not tell the world that their fish finder scares fish. Over the years [ 30 +  years ] .. manufacturers chose mostly low frequency signals and have increased the power and frequency of their transmitted signals. There was a greater need for clarity and depth of operation and distinction between sizes of fish and underwater structure.    If  you made noise in shallow water , then it is more like heard by a fish than if you were in much deeper water .  Sound dissipates in water as it does in air.   Noise comes from many sources like your engine and adjacent boat engines. THE BOTTOM LINE IS Your Depth Finder Pinging is Not your fishing problem. Although I may have said little to convince you of this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     At 10 feet ….. you can hear the ticking yourself but you don’t feel anything.  However, fish are much more sensitive than we are.  So….when I find the structure I am looking for or a school of fish, I turn off my sonar.  I have tried it and it seems that I have better success.     There was a time when I used to bring a portable radio to listen to music.  During all this time, it seemed to me that the fishing was not as good.  So one day, I turned off the radio.  Lo and behold…..the fishing improved.  I guess the vibrations from the radio sitting directly on the wooden seats of the rowboat were enough to repel a lot of the fish.  Ever since then, I use ear plugs and a walkman.     I have dozens of experiences where noise has affected fish behaviour…..most in a negative way.   But, I have to admit that most of the fishing I do is for brook trout in lakes and ponds.     Walleye do not seem to be bothered by noise or a nearby boat.  Whitefish are extremely shy.  On those late summer evenings with big brook trout sipping on tiny flies in the middle of a lake, the only way I can catch any is by silently sliding up on them with my canoe and then making long delicate fly casts with an extra long (15 to 20 foot) leader with 1 lb test tippet.  No margin for error here.  It also helps to sit tight and wait to see in what direction the fish is feeding, measuring the distances between the rises and then casting the same distance in front of the travelling fish.     Don’t expect to catch many fish this way.  The magic hour only lasts about 30 minutes, therefore you don’t have enough time than for 2 or 3 approaches. Yes the fishfinder pings fish.    For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.    In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor. What do you feel when you are 10 ft. under the transducer?                                 Capt. Bill

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish.

….yeah but, do the fish have an IP address?!? (sorry…  Unix admin joke here, people) Butch Ammon My web page: http://members.aol.com/ammonc/butch.html

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish. ….yeah but, do the fish have an IP address?!? (sorry…  Unix admin joke here, people) Butch Ammon My web page: http://members.aol.com/ammonc/butch.html

Sure…a deep set of sixes… — Harry Krause I practice moderation to excess

Response:

    At 10 feet ….. you can hear the ticking yourself but you don’t feel anything.  However, fish are much more sensitive than we are.  So….when I find the structure I am looking for or a school of fish, I turn off my sonar.  I have tried it and it seems that I have better success.     There was a time when I used to bring a portable radio to listen to music.  During all this time, it seemed to me that the fishing was not as good.  So one day, I turned off the radio.  Lo and behold…..the fishing improved.  I guess the vibrations from the radio sitting directly on the wooden seats of the rowboat were enough to repel a lot of the fish.  Ever since then, I use ear plugs and a walkman.     I have dozens of experiences where noise has affected fish behaviour…..most in a negative way.   But, I have to admit that most of the fishing I do is for brook trout in lakes and ponds.     Walleye do not seem to be bothered by noise or a nearby boat.  Whitefish are extremely shy.  On those late summer evenings with big brook trout sipping on tiny flies in the middle of a lake, the only way I can catch any is by silently sliding up on them with my canoe and then making long delicate fly casts with an extra long (15 to 20 foot) leader with 1 lb test tippet.  No margin for error here.  It also helps to sit tight and wait to see in what direction the fish is feeding, measuring the distances between the rises and then casting the same distance in front of the travelling fish.     Don’t expect to catch many fish this way.  The magic hour only lasts about 30 minutes, therefore you don’t have enough time than for 2 or 3 approaches. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes the fishfinder pings fish.    For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.    In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor. What do you feel when you are 10 ft. under the transducer?                                 Capt. Bill

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish.    For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.    In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor.

What do you feel when you are 10 ft. under the transducer?                                 Capt. Bill

Response:

My 13 year old made a very good observation the other day. he asked me if I had noticed that ever since we got a fish finder we have caught way less fish. It got me to thinking. Could that thing be ‘pinging’ the fish? I know they hunt by sensing electrical fields…. so? Also, I have another theory – that somweher in China a programmer goes to sleep every night laughing at the ‘fish’ he has programmed to appear on my scope. Rob

Response:

Yes the fishfinder pings fish.     For an interesting test, place your hand in the water under the transducer, palm downward.  You will feel small tingling on the back of your hand while the fishfinder is pinging.     In places where many fishermen congregate together and use fish finders, I have noticed that the fishing is usually poor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My 13 year old made a very good observation the other day. he asked me if I had noticed that ever since we got a fish finder we have caught way less fish. It got me to thinking. Could that thing be ‘pinging’ the fish? I know they hunt by sensing electrical fields…. so? Also, I have another theory – that somweher in China a programmer goes to sleep every night laughing at the ‘fish’ he has programmed to appear on my scope. Rob

Response:

Question:

I combine backpacking and flyfishing.  I have an old pair of very light weight wading shoes which are falling apart and I need to replace them.  Who sells the lightest wading shoes (barring sandels which do not protect the toes)?

Chota Brookies are the lightest I have seen. — Charlie…

Response:

Gary,   Get a pair of tennies, buy a felt re-sole kit, drive some aluminum nail through the felt, cut the nails off flush and cement it to the tennies with the nail heads against the shoe sole.  This isn’t the best foot protection, but provides economical, light weight, slip proof waders. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I combine backpacking and flyfishing.  I have an old pair of very light weight wading shoes which are falling apart and I need to replace them.  Who sells the lightest wading shoes (barring sandels which do not protect the toes)? Thanks, Gary Connors

Response:

I like my "dan bailey lightweight wading shoes"  about $45, really light and durable for me anyway.  They smash really flat to fit in a backpack also. Patagonias look like the best lightweight felts to me, but i bet they’re big bucks. bruce h Before you buy.

Response:

… Patagonias look like the best lightweight felts to me, but i bet they’re big bucks.

They look that way to me too, Bruce. I too backpack & flyfish and after some scary, near death acrobatics while wading in Teva sandals, I’ve been hauling my heavy felt soled boots in the backpack. I got a good look at Steve’s Patagonia boots in North Carolina and while I have no first hand (foot) experience with them, I think they’ll be my next purchase in wading boots. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I combine backpacking and flyfishing.  I have an old pair of very light weight wading shoes which are falling apart and I need to replace them.  Who sells the lightest wading shoes (barring sandels which do not protect the toes)? Thanks, Gary Connors

In addition to the other responses, you might want to check out Five-Ten water shoes. They are intended primarily for paddlers, but they will do in a pinch as lightweight, warm-water wading shoes. See http://www.fiveten.net/Product/water.html (no endorsement, liminable or subliminable, is intended or implied)

Response:

I combine backpacking and flyfishing.  … In addition to the other responses, you might want to check out Five-Ten water shoes. …

5.10 rubber soles may be OK for some wading, but if you’re wading on rocks you’ll want felt soles. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I too backpack & flyfish and after some scary, near death acrobatics while wading in Teva sandals, I’ve been hauling my heavy felt soled boots in the backpack.

I glued felt to the bottoms of an old pair of Teva’s and they work pretty well.   Willi

Response:

Patagonia makes the best lightweight wading boots I know of. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Patagonias for me! I bought a pair last Fall and have never regretted it. They are very well built and lightweight to boot.

I wore out my pair last year, sent them back for new felt soles, and they sent me a brand new pair of boots. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I combine backpacking and flyfishing.  I have an old pair of very light weight wading shoes which are falling apart and I need to replace them.  Who sells the lightest wading shoes (barring sandels which do not protect the toes)? Thanks, Gary Connors

Response:

My kid brother’s worn-out size 14 basketball shoes. Glue on felt soles. Use ‘em as camp shoes too, if you don’t mind wet feet. — "Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum" — Ambrose Bierce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who sells the lightest wading shoes

Response:

Patagonias for me! I bought a pair last Fall and have never regretted it. They are very well built and lightweight to boot. Drifter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Patagonias look like the best lightweight felts to me, but i bet they’re big bucks.

Response:

I have a pair of hodgeman bantam weights that are extremely light "dry"…some of the seams blew out after about 11 months use,(1 year warranty), just got a new pair on warranty. I agree with Ken, what works best for me is to hike them in. Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … Patagonias look like the best lightweight felts to me, but i bet they’re big bucks. They look that way to me too, Bruce. I too backpack & flyfish and after some scary, near death acrobatics while wading in Teva sandals, I’ve been hauling my heavy felt soled boots in the backpack. I got a good look at Steve’s Patagonia boots in North Carolina and while I have no first hand (foot) experience with them, I think they’ll be my next purchase in wading boots. — Ken Fortenberry

Before you buy.

Response:

Orvis has a tennis shoe type wading shoe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I combine backpacking and flyfishing.  I have an old pair of very light weight wading shoes which are falling apart and I need to replace them. Who sells the lightest wading shoes (barring sandels which do not protect the toes)? Thanks, Gary Connors

Response:

In addition to the other responses, you might want to check out Five-Ten water shoes. They are intended primarily for paddlers, but they will do in a pinch as lightweight, warm-water wading shoes. See http://www.fiveten.net/Product/water.html (no endorsement, liminable or subliminable, is intended or implied)

I have a pair of the 5/10 shoes, with aqua-stealth soles.  They are sooooo good that I got my wife a pair.  They were on sale at REI for $50 (half off). For the first time, I was able to wade the E Walker with no slipping at all (bowling balls covered with snot). Bought ‘em a size big so they fit over my wader booties.   Good luck. Dick Weinkle

Response:

I have a pair of the 5/10 shoes, with aqua-stealth soles.  They are sooooo good that I got my wife a pair.  They were on sale at REI for $50 (half off).

Going completely OT:   Michael Jackson went to K-Mart because he heard boys pants were half off.

Response:

Question:

I hear ya Wayno Buddy…loud and clear. Ever drop a lit match on your whacker ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

        sure.  why the hell you think i stopped smoking? wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

   sure.  why the hell you think i stopped smoking?

Couldn’t work the child proof lighters? — Charlie…

Response:

Gentle FFers, Is there a FAQ, that I could look at before I ask any more FAQ? John

Response:

John Not that I know of. Actually fly fishing questions are very welcome and greeted generally with pretty full answers as they break the monotony of biting one another over and over. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Gentle FFers, Is there a FAQ, that I could look at before I ask any more FAQ? John

Response:

Gentle FFers, Is there a FAQ, that I could look at before I ask any more FAQ? John

Yes there is.  Check out these sites: http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/ http://www.roff.org/ — Levi Always do sober what you said you’d do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut. –Ernest Hemingway

Response:

John Not that I know of.  [deleted]

It is a *requirement* of this newsgroup that you read the FAQ prior to posting. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

John Not that I know of.  [deleted] It is a *requirement* of this newsgroup that you read the FAQ prior to posting.

Bullshit.      - Ken — "Everyone must believe in something. I believe I’ll go canoeing."                   — H.D. Thoreau

Response:

[deleted] Bullshit. – Ken

As much as I see poetry in this itself…. From the FAQ: "This FAQ list has been compiled by members to address questions and issues that freequently appear. Review it. " It does not say, "please review it" or "you should review it". http://www.rdc.com.au/Netiquette.html "When you join a list, monitor the messages for a few days to get a feel for what common questions are asked, and what topics are deemed off-limits. This is commonly referred to as lurking. When you feel comfortable with the group, then start posting. See if there is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) for a group that you are interested in joining. Veteran members get annoyed when they see the same questions every few weeks, or at the start of each semester." Again it doesn’t ask you to "please see if there is a FAQ.." it says "See if there is a FAQ". Pretty common Usenet stuff Ken.  If there is a FAQ then it is required reading… (define ‘require’). — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

 I could have sent in my version of a FAQ requiring the reading of ROFF in the nude.  While I’m sure that’s how most of us do indeed read ROFF, just because it is written does not make it a requirement. sweet baby jesus, janik, show some concern for your fellow man!  having attended more than one clave, the images suggested by your reckless ramblings force one’s imagination control to levels of sheer panic.  even the first amendment has its limits!

I hear ya Wayno Buddy…loud and clear. Ever drop a lit match on your whacker ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" B.M.P.I.A.

Response:

  I could have sent in my version of a FAQ requiring the reading of ROFF in the nude.  While I’m sure that’s how most of us do indeed read ROFF, just because it is written does not make it a requirement.

        sweet baby jesus, janik, show some concern for your fellow man!  having attended more than one clave, the images suggested by your reckless ramblings force one’s imagination control to levels of sheer panic.  even the first amendment has its limits! wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

[deleted] Bullshit. – Ken As much as I see poetry in this itself…. From the FAQ: "This FAQ list has been compiled by members to address questions and issues that freequently appear. Review it. " It does not say, "please review it" or "you should review it".

The FAQ at Jon’s site is merely a collection of thoughts from various members, it is in no way an "official" charter.  I could have sent in my version of a FAQ requiring the reading of ROFF in the nude.  While I’m sure that’s how most of us do indeed read ROFF, just because it is written does not make it a requirement. http://www.rdc.com.au/Netiquette.html "When you join a list, monitor the messages for a few days to get a feel for what common questions are asked, and what topics are deemed off-limits. This is commonly referred to as lurking. When you feel comfortable with the group, then start posting. See if there is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) for a group that you are interested in joining. Veteran members get annoyed when they see the same questions every few weeks, or at the start of each semester." Again it doesn’t ask you to "please see if there is a FAQ.." it says "See if there is a FAQ". Pretty common Usenet stuff Ken.  If there is a FAQ then it is required reading…

The site you cite is titled "Net User Guidelines and Netiquette" and is from one particular University.  You even selectively took sentences from various sections.  In the Usenet section, it does not even mention FAQs. It is CERTAINLY a good idea to read the FAQ, it’s probably even a nice thing to do, but it is in no way required. Later,      - Ken — "Everyone must believe in something. I believe I’ll go canoeing."                   — H.D. Thoreau

Response:

Question:

I have a business meeting in Pullman, Washington June 28 – 21.  Are there any trout streams in the area (3 – 4 hour radius) which won’t be flooded out during that time with reasonable access to wading. Thanks for any advice. Brent Buckley

Response:

: I have a business meeting in Pullman, Washington June 28 – 21.  Are : there : any trout streams in the area (3 – 4 hour radius) which won’t be flooded : out during that time with reasonable access to wading. Sure, take a look through the entire N. Idaho region.  St. Joe, Lochsa, Selway, St. Maries, Marble Creek, Clearwater (all forks), …etc. All will be very high water.  I would guess the St. Joe might be the best option by end of June. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    : I have a business meeting in Pullman, Washington June 28 – 21.  Are    : there    : any trout streams in the area (3 – 4 hour radius) which won’t be flooded    : out during that time with reasonable access to wading.    Sure, take a look through the entire N. Idaho region.  St. Joe, Lochsa,    Selway, St. Maries, Marble Creek, Clearwater (all forks), …etc. But don’t neglect the Washington side of the Clearwater and lakes such as Lenore, Lenice, Amber to the west.  There are some pleasant small lakes around Lewiston, too.   — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster pgp key available at: ftp://ftp.cs.uidaho.edu/pub/foster/pgp-key.asc

Response:

Question:

Planning a potential:-) two-week trip to Rockies in..?Feb-March.. sometime…..for skiing.  Are there any relatively shallow waters fishable then…or when….  Including some lightline flyfishing   would definitely add a lot to the trip.  Although judging from the springtime entries…to beat the spring *thaw*:-) seems to be anytime before late june!..?.. out there. feel free to email…. tight_lines, steve d.

Response:

Planning a potential:-) two-week trip to Rockies in..?Feb-March.. sometime…..for skiing.  Are there any relatively shallow waters fishable then…or when….  Including some lightline flyfishing would definitely add a lot to the trip.  Although judging from the springtime entries…to beat the spring *thaw*:-) seems to be anytime before late june!..?.. out there. feel free to email…. tight_lines, steve d.

Hi Steve, You can experience great skiing at Big Sky or Bridger Bowl near Bozeman.  The fishing that time of year on Nelson’s spring creek (not sure about the outcome with Depuys/Armstrongs yet), the Beaver Head, and the Big Horn are all great.  Mid day midges, blue winged olives, etc. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

Question:

Does anyone have successful experience fishing lakes using sinking leaders such as AirFlo’s in place of a battery of full sinking fly lines?  I have often wondered about this.  

<snip Hi James, Sinking leaders are an interesting product. They work pretty well, though they do possess certain disadvantages that are also inherent in sink-tip lines. With either, you do in fact end up with a hinge of sorts if you are fishing deep. The curve in the line, to some degree, puts you out of contact with the fly.The problem is that if you are fishing very slowly, and the trout are taking softly, you will miss strikes. A full sink line (particularly the Uni-Sink) draws a straight line to the fly and fish. You will feel more strikes and be able to set-up more securely. All that said, sinking leaders are very convenient (and economical) and if you’re not trying to fish too deep they will probably work great for you.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, California   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

Response:

Does anyone have successful experience fishing lakes using sinking leaders such as AirFlo’s in place of a battery of full sinking fly lines?  I have often wondered about this.  Claims are made by the AirFlo people that depth is controlled by the leader, while angle of retrieve is controlled by the fly line.  I am also aware of claims made by sinking line advocates that using a floating line with a sink tip or a sinking leader will cause the fly to ‘loft’ upwards on the retrieve.  The sinking line is supposed to make it possible to retrieve at one given depth.  This theory of ‘lofting’ only makes sense if one is really hauling in line fast enough to cause hydraulic pressure on the line to lift the fly.  I can’t believe there is really much of this if one is retrieving the fly as slowly as it should be.  Also, the sinking can be counted down to a prescribed or given depth.  However, it will keep right on sinking, not travelling in a perfectly horizontal direction and maintaining the same depth. I would like to see some experienced input on this. Please post in the group or e-mail me direct. Thanks.

Response:

Question:

Could someone post a primer on steelhead fishing on the Lake Ontario Tributaries?  Where, what flys, what other types of bait/rig are used (not that I would use anything but a fly, but I have an 8 year old who dreams of landing a big fish and he spins), how to work the fly and the stream.  I’ve read that they haven’t yet come in but we are waiting none too patiently.  Thanks in advance. — Jeffrey D. Morris Applied Math and Statistics Kodak Research Labs Rochester, NY 14650-2205

Response:

Could someone post a primer on steelhead fishing on the Lake Ontario Tributaries?  Where, what flys, what other types of bait/rig are used (not that I would use anything but a fly, but I have an 8 year old who dreams of landing a big fish and he spins), how to work the fly and the stream.  I’ve read that they haven’t yet come in but we are waiting none too patiently.  Thanks in advance. — Jeffrey D. Morris Applied Math and Statistics Kodak Research Labs Rochester, NY 14650-2205

        I believe most people use a roe sac with a bobber and just drift it downstream. Flyfishing is not something I would recommend if the fish are running. Any stream with a hint of movement is covered with anglers crowded almost shoulder to shoulder. If the fish are not in season and you are hoping to pick up stragglers you might be better off.  Most of the flyfishermen I have talked to in the area find that larger bucktails seem to work better than most. keep the hook sharp and the tip up

Response:

Lafleur) writes:

Extreme crowded conditions are the norm during the king salmon runs of September-October.  Steelhead enter the tribs from mid-Oct. all the way until April.  The Salmon River in Pulaski NY is often crowded but if you arrive on a weekday there are most certainly places to fish.  The lower few miles of the river is a private  pay to fish section ($10 weekdays, $15 weekends) and only a a certain number of people are allowed on this property each day.  Overall, the crowds are not bad after the salmon runs are over.  The best bait rig to use is a small salmon egg sac on a #6-10 egg hook dead drifted on bottom using very light line (2-8lb) and a long (9-12 foot) limber rod, called noodle rods around here.  The best fly patterns this time of year are anything that looks like a salmon egg in sizes #6-10 (ex. glow bugs, yarn flies, ect…).  The best colors are usually chartreuse, orange, and a combination of chart. and blue (yup I said blue). These should be fished on a 9-11 ft. rod (slow action preferred), and 2-5x tippets.  The Salmon River is deep and fast, several flyfishers in the area have developed a technique in which 2-4 weight floating lines are used in order to decrease drag caused by heavier lines.  I have not graduated to this level and still use 5-7 weight floating lines.  You will need lots of lead, especially if the waters up, I would suggest purchasing what are called slinky sinkers.  They dont snag on bottom nearly as much as regular split shot and will save you lots of time and money.  Casting with lots  of lead on your line ain’t easy, but it is the only way to get to the fish on some days (we call the casting technique the "chuck and duck"). Hope this was helpfull.                                   Mark Arrigo                                  SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry                                   Syracuse NY 13210

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Question:

Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

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Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…    

I’ve tried Dry Shake this summer and found that it worked fine when fishing in calm water. In moving water the powder  rinsed away to fast. I found out that you must make the fly as dry as possible before putting the stuff on it again. It worked for me. But I’m only using Dry Shake in  calm water. It is very expensive though  (100 Skr for 25 gram).. I’m still looking for the ultimate dry fly floatant! /Mikael — Mikael Andersson                        Ericsson Telecom AB Phone: +46 8 7190794                    KK/ETX/T/BDH Fax:   +46 8 6812626                    S-126 25 Stockholm

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writes: Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual

‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once

been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

If this is the same "Shake’n Dry" stuff that I use, it isn’t meant to be a floatant, it’s supposed to dry off a drowned fly. You have to reapply your favorite floatant after it’s dried. By the way, this stuff is ordinary silica gel dessicant. You can get the same stuff for about 5 bucks (US) a pound at hobby shops. They use it for drying flowers and such. One pound will last you for a lifetime (or get together with some of your fisherman friends and split the cost) the only other thing you need to get is a suitable container (but you already have one since you bought Shake’n Dry). This stuff also works great for cul de canard flies, since you can’t use floatant on them. Darryl

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Have you tried the powder dry fly floatant?   Nntp-Posting-Host: eplu04 Organization: Erisoft AB Umea Sweden Lines: 9 Well in that case I would like your opinion about it. I have tried it myself, when I ran out of my usual ‘oily-rings-on-the-water-stuff’, and man was I disappointed. Sure, it worked beautifully. For a couple of seconds. But when the fly once been drown, it stayed submerged. I followed then instructions to dry the fly and put some more of that powder on, but this time the fly didn’t even seem to notice the surface. I think the name of the stuff was ‘Dry n Shake’. Bloody expensive too…     Gink forever…./ Hans

I have had a similar experience with the dry powder. However, I have found a flotant which is superior, for me, to Gink or Dave’s…. I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me. Rick Najarian

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I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me.

Can you give an address/phone number? — Rick

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I do a lot of my fly on backpacking trips in the High Sierra of California, where it is pretty cold in the morning. I find Gink, etc. to be VERY viscous to the point of not flowing. I have found some silicone based flotant in Andy Puyan’s fly shop, Creative Sports, in Pleasant Hill Califorinia, which was developed by one of Andy’s fly tying students. The student was a chemist at Dow in nearby Pittsburg, CA. This stuff is the consistency of honey at any temp between 25 and 105 degrees F. I’ts called Andy’s flotant & it works really well for me. Can you give an address/phone number? — Rick

Dear RW, The shop is: Creative Sports 1924 #C Oak Park Blvd. Pleasant Hill, CA 94253 (510) 938-2255 P.S. "Andy" is Andy Puyans of the "A.P. Nymph series" & this is his fly shop. Naj

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FYI, the guides I’ve talked to in Montana and the Eastern Sierras swear by "Aquel" by Loon.  It seems to hold its consistency well in the heat.

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