Question:

Hi Adam, I guess I would try to get in the front of the boat and get the smallest other fisherman in the back in case you have to work him over. I am sure that they have this combo all the time and will work it out for you. Email me a good picture for my web site. Good luck. PS: Have tried fishing Isla Holbox for tarpon yet ? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For the last 12 years almost all my fishing is done with a fly rod (before that it was spinning rod).  This includes bass and pickerel (mostly on poppers) in NJ and FL, and saltwater inshore species.  For the past two years I’ve been lucky enough to get my ass down to Venezuela for peacock bass on the fly rod (have also been fishing for them in Miami canals for about 9 years).  Unbelievable fish and an unbelievable kick, as you know if you’ve fished for these awesome fish. In both instances, I either fish with other fly rodders or fished alone. As I don’t have experience fishing for peacocks out of the same boat with conventional casters, I would like some advise on how best to work things out.  In September I’ll be going to Brazil to go after the big guys (upwards to 30#).  I don’t know any of the other guys who will be going, but I do know that they will be using regular casting gear (baitcasting and spinning).  So here are my questions. I have concerns on how to work it out with whoever I fish with.  I know that all day they will be chucking big noise making stuff and will probably be able to cast well over 100′, whereas in order not to rip my arm off, I’ll be casting around 60′ (I can cast further, but not all day with the big flies and poppers I’ll be casting without dislocating my shoulder).  This can put me at a great disadvantage in that if the guide holds the boat well off the shore line or fish holding structure, I won’t be able to reach the preferred spots.  And, the truth of the matter is as nothing scares the peacocks (like boat engine/motor noise, etc), holding the boat 60′ off the shore or structure wouldn’t make a difference in the catch rate.  Of course, casting big distances into open water areas is not a problem.  How do you guys feel this can be worked out, or is the problem only in my mind? Also, what about the rate at which the boat moves?  Whether I’m in the middle or in the front of the boat, slow moving is better for me as I can’t repeat cast as fast as my partners can.  I’m thinking that they might be more used to a faster troll and have problems with this.  Your opinions, please. Thanks again, Adam

Response:

For the last 12 years almost all my fishing is done with a fly rod (before that it was spinning rod).  This includes bass and pickerel (mostly on poppers) in NJ and FL, and saltwater inshore species.  For the past two years I’ve been lucky enough to get my ass down to Venezuela for peacock bass on the fly rod (have also been fishing for them in Miami canals for about 9 years).  Unbelievable fish and an unbelievable kick, as you know if you’ve fished for these awesome fish. In both instances, I either fish with other fly rodders or fished alone.  As I don’t have experience fishing for peacocks out of the same boat with conventional casters, I would like some advise on how best to work things out.  In September I’ll be going to Brazil to go after the big guys (upwards to 30#).  I don’t know any of the other guys who will be going, but I do know that they will be using regular casting gear (baitcasting and spinning).  So here are my questions. I have concerns on how to work it out with whoever I fish with.  I know that all day they will be chucking big noise making stuff and will probably be able to cast well over 100′, whereas in order not to rip my arm off, I’ll be casting around 60′ (I can cast further, but not all day with the big flies and poppers I’ll be casting without dislocating my shoulder).  This can put me at a great disadvantage in that if the guide holds the boat well off the shore line or fish holding structure, I won’t be able to reach the preferred spots.  And, the truth of the matter is as nothing scares the peacocks (like boat engine/motor noise, etc), holding the boat 60′ off the shore or structure wouldn’t make a difference in the catch rate.  Of course, casting big distances into open water areas is not a problem.  How do you guys feel this can be worked out, or is the problem only in my mind? Also, what about the rate at which the boat moves?  Whether I’m in the middle or in the front of the boat, slow moving is better for me as I can’t repeat cast as fast as my partners can.  I’m thinking that they might be more used to a faster troll and have problems with this.  Your opinions, please. Thanks again, Adam

Response:

        I would think that holding in a little closer so that you can cast also shouldn’t be a problem for the other guys or the guide, if they are sporting types. Further, I don’t think that they would want to be at max range casting for peacocks. Those fish tend to live in some of the meanest cover there is if I’m not mistaken. You don’t want a mile of line out there with a fish that lives in snags. At least, I sure don’t!     As far as working things out regarding who casts when- even two baitcaster types must do this if one guy is using a 7′ rod and the other is using a 6 1/2′ footer or longer in a smaller bass boat…you’d just have to co-ordinate casts. Work it out with your boat mate, and develop a rhythm. My partners and I would "leapfrog cast" an entire shoreline during club tournaments, staying out of each other’s way in the rhythm pattern.     Further, as far as not being able to cast as frequently to the same area, how much line can you have out and still do a roll cast? You should be able to put the fly right back on the same spot that way, or walk it along an area, if the trolling motor is moving you at a fairly brisk pace, I would think. My fly rodding has been limited to the local river and farm ponds, so can’t tell you about the roll cast in a bass boat much…hmmmmm perhaps I need to do some field work on this and write an article…..    ’Hope this helps some…     B3

Response:

Question:

Don’t really have any trout waters near home Willi, so yours was a pleasant read. I was however, standing around and chatting with a few friends today and we are all of the same persuasion. With a much milder than normal winter – usually  a several day stretch of below zero weather and this time not one day of single digits! – we agree it is time to start checking the water temperature. Our general feeling is that when the thermometer reads anything above forty degrees, it’s time to start fishing as the smallmouth start moving to the spawning beds. Not actually on the beds but they begin to leave the winter holes and move in the rivers and begin feeding. It’s fun to have that ‘antsy’ ‘ants in your pants’ feeling ain’t it? john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF) I decided to take an hour off and do some fishing. I walked downstream to an area that frequently has some free rising fish. As I approached the area, I saw several dimples from rising fish. Although some of the rises were from fish sipping pupa, many of them were fish taking midge adults which is uncommon. The midges were huge, well relatively anyway, about a size twenty. Water levels are still down and the fish were feeding in water that varied from one to three feet in depth. They spread out in a section of river about 150 feet in length and were feeding in several distinct pods. The current is very moderate in most of this area and in the clear water I could see the fish suspended above the bottom at their feeding stations and watch them as they chased a pupa or rose to an adult. Especially when they are feeding in such thin water, the fish here are very spooky. You generally have your best chance at any given fish on the first presentation. Once you get a refusal from a fish, your next drift over it may spook it and put down the whole pod. I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF The commotion of the fish put down the rest of that pod of fish. I moved upstream to the next group. There appeared to be a better fish feeding along the opposite bank, just upstream from a large boulder. Since I usually can only get one fish from a pod, if that, I decided to target that fish. The cast was across several different current seams and getting a good drift was difficult. A dozen casts later, I got the fly where it needed to be and got the fish, another Rainbow a couple of inches bigger and much fatter. Again the rest of that pod of fish was put down. I had time to hit one more area. There was a single fish feeding in the head of this run. The fish feeding in this area are usually much easier. The faster current gives them less time to survey your fly and broken surface makes your errors less noticeable. Several casts later, I finally got a good drift and hooked the fish. It was another Rainbow about the size of the first, around 15/16 inches. Time to go home and do some electric repairs. I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?

I should have been aware of this just from observation, but I haven’t heard anything about it on the news. I just looked it up and the different basins across Colorado range from 45 to 70 percent of normal. This isn’t good, but the next few of months are our wettest months and can make a big difference. Willi

Response:

I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF

That’s a great fish-on-the-ground photo, Willi. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rainbow in that condition. The ice makes a perfect background. You must have used a digital camera. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start.

How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?  

Response:

BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?

  It’s looking pretty bleak along the east face of the Bighorns.  Reservoirs are all very low.  I went up again and fished the tail water of the Tongue today. It’s as low as I’ve seen in the 3 years I’ve fished it.  The reservoir is very low.  Looks like it will be another tough year for our small streams. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Was it El Nino or El Nina that I saw a blurb of on the news the other day? I get them mixed up.  Anyhow, whatever areas whichever one effects are due for some rain this year……maybe a lot. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there? I should have been aware of this just from observation, but I haven’t heard anything about it on the news. I just looked it up and the different basins across Colorado range from 45 to 70 percent of normal. This isn’t good, but the next few of months are our wettest months and can make a big difference. Willi

Response:

BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?

Unless March and April bring some pleasant surprises, it’s looking like a season that will begin early and end early. The snowpack is so low that there isn’t even enough to ski on (IMHO) at the local resort. Some of the ranges in Colorado seem to be doing better, so I expect I’ll be doing most of my fishing down there after mid-July or thereabouts. If I do a mini clave up here, it will almost definitely be held in early July. I’m hoping a heavy spring snowfall and subsequent runoff will force a several-week postponement, but I wouldn’t bet on it. I won’t be surprised at all to be fishing the high country on Memorial Day this year. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

 How is the snowpack in the upper watershed up there?  It is almost scary low down here.  I am certainly hoping that the mild winter that we have had does not translate into another low-water, high-temperature summer. BTW….to the folks that live in Wyoming….how is it looking up there?  

Hey Chip,  You might know about this site, but here is a link to the Snotel data. ftp://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/data/snow/update Great place to find snowpack info.  The northern states are certainly doing better than the southern states…. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

Response:

I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF)

Glad to hear that you’re out on the home waters. Is this much earlier than usual? IOW, when you say "mild winter" do you mean length of winter or depth (cold temps), or both? Danl who doesn’t even have his ‘02 license yet…Oh the shame!….

Response:

The guy I am after is in a meeting but I have a left a message for him to call me. It may take him a little time to get to me as I’ll be away from home and the lodge for the next week or so. But I will get the answer. I forgot to mention earlier, the reason I compared the fishing as similar to ours was the "one shot" scenario of get it right or spook em. Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things. The river is on the plains instead of in the mountains, so it does have SOME spring creek characteristics. The fish average considerably larger than in the upstream mountain areas but there are far fewer fish. From your descriptions, your rivers have lower populations of fish than our rivers in general but your fish are considerably larger. The only streams or rivers that I know of that have fish that average in size what yours seem to, are short sections of tailwaters that are below reservoirs that have miasis (sp)shrimp in them. I know I asked you this before but have you gotten any more information as to why this would be? It seems to me that you must either have very limitted spawning or the survival of the fry or young fish is low. Willi

Response:

Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things.

The river is on the plains instead of in the mountains, so it does have SOME spring creek characteristics. The fish average considerably larger than in the upstream mountain areas but there are far fewer fish. From your descriptions, your rivers have lower populations of fish than our rivers in general but your fish are considerably larger. The only streams or rivers that I know of that have fish that average in size what yours seem to, are short sections of tailwaters that are below reservoirs that have miasis (sp)shrimp in them. I know I asked you this before but have you gotten any more information as to why this would be? It seems to me that you must either have very limitted spawning or the survival of the fry or young fish is low. Willi

Response:

Well that’s the curious part. In short answer as to my research no, I simply haven’t had time. I am just finishing 2 days off and will make a call to a friend in a second and see what answer he gives, he heads up one of our major Fish and Game Councils. However, I will presume that neither your ideas are really accurate. there is abundant spawning habitat and our fish have less predation here that they would in the US. In fact once they reach about 16-18 inches there is little they could predate on them unless they sick or injured. Stay tuned I’ll get on the phone and hopefully return with something of use. Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things. The river is on the plains instead of in the mountains, so it does have SOME spring creek characteristics. The fish average considerably larger than in the upstream mountain areas but there are far fewer fish. From your descriptions, your rivers have lower populations of fish than our rivers in general but your fish are considerably larger. The only streams or rivers that I know of that have fish that average in size what yours seem to, are short sections of tailwaters that are below reservoirs that have miasis (sp)shrimp in them. I know I asked you this before but have you gotten any more information as to why this would be? It seems to me that you must either have very limitted spawning or the survival of the fry or young fish is low. Willi

Response:

Sounds like some nice fishing Willi, and the style is somewhat reminiscent of our North Island spring creek fishing by the sounds of things. Clark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF) I decided to take an hour off and do some fishing. I walked downstream to an area that frequently has some free rising fish. As I approached the area, I saw several dimples from rising fish. Although some of the rises were from fish sipping pupa, many of them were fish taking midge adults which is uncommon. The midges were huge, well relatively anyway, about a size twenty. Water levels are still down and the fish were feeding in water that varied from one to three feet in depth. They spread out in a section of river about 150 feet in length and were feeding in several distinct pods. The current is very moderate in most of this area and in the clear water I could see the fish suspended above the bottom at their feeding stations and watch them as they chased a pupa or rose to an adult. Especially when they are feeding in such thin water, the fish here are very spooky. You generally have your best chance at any given fish on the first presentation. Once you get a refusal from a fish, your next drift over it may spook it and put down the whole pod. I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF The commotion of the fish put down the rest of that pod of fish. I moved upstream to the next group. There appeared to be a better fish feeding along the opposite bank, just upstream from a large boulder. Since I usually can only get one fish from a pod, if that, I decided to target that fish. The cast was across several different current seams and getting a good drift was difficult. A dozen casts later, I got the fly where it needed to be and got the fish, another Rainbow a couple of inches bigger and much fatter. Again the rest of that pod of fish was put down. I had time to hit one more area. There was a single fish feeding in the head of this run. The fish feeding in this area are usually much easier. The faster current gives them less time to survey your fly and broken surface makes your errors less noticeable. Several casts later, I finally got a good drift and hooked the fish. It was another Rainbow about the size of the first, around 15/16 inches. Time to go home and do some electric repairs. I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. Willi

Response:

I mentioned in an early post that for the first time in about a month and half, I actually saw some trout during a walk. Today is very pleasant and on my way back from picking up some electrical supplies, I stopped at the river and checked it out from the bridge. Standing on the bridge and looking down, I saw a pod of about twenty trout feeding in the pool below. (See pics on ABPF) I decided to take an hour off and do some fishing. I walked downstream to an area that frequently has some free rising fish. As I approached the area, I saw several dimples from rising fish. Although some of the rises were from fish sipping pupa, many of them were fish taking midge adults which is uncommon. The midges were huge, well relatively anyway, about a size twenty. Water levels are still down and the fish were feeding in water that varied from one to three feet in depth. They spread out in a section of river about 150 feet in length and were feeding in several distinct pods. The current is very moderate in most of this area and in the clear water I could see the fish suspended above the bottom at their feeding stations and watch them as they chased a pupa or rose to an adult. Especially when they are feeding in such thin water, the fish here are very spooky. You generally have your best chance at any given fish on the first presentation. Once you get a refusal from a fish, your next drift over it may spook it and put down the whole pod. I tied on a Griffith’s Gnat and crept into position. I started working the first fish, got a refusal on the third cast and moved on to the next one. The next fish I worked took on about the fourth cast. I landed it, slid it onto a shelf of ice that remained in the shady area where I was standing and took a picture. See ABPF The commotion of the fish put down the rest of that pod of fish. I moved upstream to the next group. There appeared to be a better fish feeding along the opposite bank, just upstream from a large boulder. Since I usually can only get one fish from a pod, if that, I decided to target that fish. The cast was across several different current seams and getting a good drift was difficult. A dozen casts later, I got the fly where it needed to be and got the fish, another Rainbow a couple of inches bigger and much fatter. Again the rest of that pod of fish was put down. I had time to hit one more area. There was a single fish feeding in the head of this run. The fish feeding in this area are usually much easier. The faster current gives them less time to survey your fly and broken surface makes your errors less noticeable. Several casts later, I finally got a good drift and hooked the fish. It was another Rainbow about the size of the first, around 15/16 inches. Time to go home and do some electric repairs. I was very glad to see the condition of the fish. All were in good shape. We had a mild Winter this year which helps the trout. Early fish after a hard Winter are often very skinny from Winter’s stress. For the next several weeks it will take several days in a row of warm temperatures, like we had recently, to get the fish moving. By mid March, the Olives will start. Willi

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Question:

ps. I usually fish one nymph…two for variety when trying to figure out preference.  I have found two flies do not necessarily add up to more fish under clear conditions.  Attractor helps in faster or off color water. Two flies are a pain in the butt when nymphing…get hung in net.  I more frequently fish two flies when fishing dries…great for difficult drift indication.  I put them much farther apart than I do nymphs and the net is aggravation is proportionatly rare. Pet peeves…foul hookers, san juan shufflers, people fishing to spawners Scott

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Pet peeves…foul hookers, san juan shufflers, people fishing to spawners

Speaking of San Juan shufflers. An aquaintance relayed to me that he was fishing in Cheeseman Canyon, a popular tailwater in Colorado. He ran into a guide that was shuffling at the head of a run and having his two clients fish immediately below him. Since it’s not illegal here in CO, he just made a couple of snide remarks as he passed by. Willi

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Uh oh! Wolfgang

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I keep track of those "not hooked in mouth".  I break off very few fish.  I would count a foul hook in the mouth as not foul hooked. Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t possibly know what your "foul hook-up" rate is when you’re using droppers, if we assume that Bruce’s theory is correct.

Response:

I keep track of those "not hooked in mouth".  I break off very few fish.  I would count a foul hook in the mouth as not foul hooked.

Could someone please translate that for me? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Bet I know the guide (not by name).  He no longer guides in the canyon past few years…but that’s another story, real ugly story. Past couple of years guides in Colorado have improved immeasurably. In fact with all my fishing I can think of no ‘bad guide behavior’ over past two years.  Just the opposite. Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of San Juan shufflers. An aquaintance relayed to me that he was fishing in Cheeseman Canyon, a popular tailwater in Colorado. He ran into a guide that was shuffling at the head of a run and having his two clients fish immediately below him. Since it’s not illegal here in CO, he just made a couple of snide remarks as he passed by. Willi

Response:

Another joke Steve. I hate "smiley faces" !!!!!

OK, I get it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Bet I know the guide (not by name).  He no longer guides in the canyon past few years…but that’s another story, real ugly story. Past couple of years guides in Colorado have improved immeasurably. In fact with all my fishing I can think of no ‘bad guide behavior’ over past two years.  Just the opposite.

This was a recent event. Willi

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Uh oh! Wolfgang

Well, yeah, Uh oh! Scott’s finely tuned sensibilities would disqualify virtually all steelhead and salmon flyfishing, including those landlocked rainbows that pass for steelhead in the Great Lakes. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

What would those be? I had the feeling last week that my "bag of tricks" was severely wanting.

Have you tried skill yet? <g — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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What would those be? I had the feeling last week that my "bag of tricks" was severely wanting. Have you tried skill yet? <g

So did you finally catch any trout (not whitefish) in the Ashton tailwater? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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PS I agree with your later post, IT IS UNETHICAL

So what does that mean, Willi? Does it mean that you’ll henceforth and forevermore foreswear the use of dropper flies of any sort? I’ve seen you fish, many times, so I know that would be a radical departure from your customary practice. On the other hand, it might bring your hookup rate down to the reach of us mere mortals. Meanwhile, I’m reconsidering the wisdom of putting a little weight between the top fly and the dropper. It might improve the casting, but it might also adversely affect the hookups. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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You mentioned this was unethical in another post (if done on purpose I assume.)

It was a joke. Willi

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RE stuff about snagging fish on dropper flies omitted. ssshhh. These are called secrets. You’re not supposed to talk about it. Do note however, that if you press the barbs down before casting, you can always long line a snagged fish by throwing it a loop of line….anytime you want. Note too that many fish get caught (on the dropper) because they ate the dropper fly, and not because they got snagged. Finally, I think it’s better not to talk about what’s ethical and not ethical. That’s a pandoras box better left alone.

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Finally, I think it’s better not to talk about what’s ethical and not ethical. That’s a pandoras box better left alone.

Y’know, Sandy, I wasn’t the first person to bring it up. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

PS I agree with your later post, IT IS UNETHICAL So what does that mean, Willi? Does it mean that you’ll henceforth and forevermore foreswear the use of dropper flies of any sort? I’ve seen you fish, many times, so I know that would be a radical departure from your customary practice. On the other hand, it might bring your hookup rate down to the reach of us mere mortals. Meanwhile, I’m reconsidering the wisdom of putting a little weight between the top fly and the dropper. It might improve the casting, but it might also adversely affect the hookups.

Like I said to Jeff, I was just joking. However, we all know you carry lots of unethical techniques in your bag of tricks. I think weight between the top fly and dropper is often a good idea. As long as the weight is lighter than the weight above the top fly or is the only weight, casting is OK, not that it can ever be good flinging weight. Willi

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An Alaskan technique is to slide a plastic trout egg like bead onto the line, locked into place with broken off toothpick (ala foam indicator). Bare hook on the line few inches below. I rarely ever set on flash, especially if I use two nymphs.  Too often the trout moves because the tippet bumps into him, and the set simply rips the hooks across (and into) his body.  Especially true (and tempting) when fishing trophy trout waters.  Worse if fishing to spawning trout.  Watched one guy hook 15 trout, 12 were foul hooked…made me sick. Catch & release can be compared to shooting dogs in the butt with a BB gun…YEAH, got another one.  This in mind I managed to keep foul hooks-ups down to @2% in trophy waters, land quickly, release ASAP.  Smallest feasible yarn indicator with a bead of bio-strike below (for under-water pointer…early detection…drift indication) provides significant extra sensitivity to strikes. See picks at http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/scottfromboulder/lst?.dir=/Fishing+Photo+A… (smallest trout is two feet long) My experience too is that most trout hook up on lower fly (has more natural, free drift).  Aware of the Alaskan salmon egg (bead) technique, I have watched for bottom fly hook-up locations…seems only a fraction are likely [slide-ups].  But certain that it happens. Scott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While sitting around the campfire at Box Canyon campground at Henry’s Fork, Bruce told us about a fish he hooked when he saw it flash. We got to talking about how when this happens it makes you think about how many takes you miss because the indicator doesn’t move. Bruce made a comment I thought was interesting. I thought it was pretty perceptive. Detecting strikes while nymphing is affected by current speed and water depth. In most situations, I believe, the majority of takes are missed. Getting a proper drift is very difficult in many situations and maintaining enough contact throughout a drift in order to detect takes is usually impossible. At best, you only have a good drift and adequate contact during a short time during the drift. He said (I hope I’ve got this right) that he thought a large percentage of hookups on two-nymph dropper rigs are caused by the fish taking the top fly, thereby moving the indicator, causing the angler to set the hook, and then the tippet gets caught in the fish’s mouth and the dropper slides up to hook it. This makes a lot of sense to me for a few reasons. First of all, it explains those hookups on the dropper fly that get the fish outside the mouth in the lower jaw. Secondly, it explains why so many more hookups come on the dropper fly compared to the top fly (although there may be other reasons for that, as well). Finally, it explains hookups on fish that visibly take a dry fly, but end up hooked on the wet-fly dropper, which happens to me pretty often. I’ve never thought of this and have never heard anyone else bring it up. Although I think that the lower nymph, the one on the dropper, usually hooks more fish because it is deeper in the water column, Bruce’s observation makes alot of sense and fits in with my experience. I’ve also had takes to a dry result in hookups, in the mouth, on the dropper. I always figured the fish took the dropper on the way up to the dry, but Bruce’s explanation makes more sense. However, this doesn’t explain the fish I took at Henry’s that had both nymphs in its mouth. PS I agree with your later post, IT IS UNETHICAL Willi

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See picks at http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/scottfromboulder/lst?.dir=/Fishing+Photo+A… (smallest trout is two feet long)

Beautiful fish. Did you get the Brown in Alaska too? Willi

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Catch & release can be compared to shooting dogs in the butt with a BB gun…YEAH, got another one.  This in mind I managed to keep foul hooks-ups down to @2% in trophy waters, land quickly, release ASAP.  Smallest feasible yarn indicator with a bead of bio-strike below (for under-water pointer…early detection…drift indication) provides significant extra sensitivity to strikes.

You can’t possibly know what your "foul hook-up" rate is when you’re using droppers, if we assume that Bruce’s theory is correct. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Like I said to Jeff, I was just joking. However, we all know you carry lots of unethical techniques in your bag of tricks.

What would those be? I had the feeling last week that my "bag of tricks" was severely wanting. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Like I said to Jeff, I was just joking. However, we all know you carry lots of unethical techniques in your bag of tricks. What would those be? I had the feeling last week that my "bag of tricks" was severely wanting.

Another joke Steve. I hate "smiley faces" !!!!! Willi

Response:

While sitting around the campfire at Box Canyon campground at Henry’s Fork, Bruce told us about a fish he hooked when he saw it flash. We got to talking about how when this happens it makes you think about how many takes you miss because the indicator doesn’t move. Bruce made a comment I thought was interesting. He said (I hope I’ve got this right) that he thought a large percentage of hookups on two-nymph dropper rigs are caused by the fish taking the top fly, thereby moving the indicator, causing the angler to set the hook, and then the tippet gets caught in the fish’s mouth and the dropper slides up to hook it. This makes a lot of sense to me for a few reasons. First of all, it explains those hookups on the dropper fly that get the fish outside the mouth in the lower jaw. Secondly, it explains why so many more hookups come on the dropper fly compared to the top fly (although there may be other reasons for that, as well). Finally, it explains hookups on fish that visibly take a dry fly, but end up hooked on the wet-fly dropper, which happens to me pretty often. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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I forgot to mention that this is extremely unethical. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

While sitting around the campfire at Box Canyon campground at Henry’s Fork, Bruce told us about a fish he hooked when he saw it flash. We got to talking about how when this happens it makes you think about how many takes you miss because the indicator doesn’t move. Bruce made a comment I thought was interesting.

I thought it was pretty perceptive. Detecting strikes while nymphing is affected by current speed and water depth. In most situations, I believe, the majority of takes are missed. Getting a proper drift is very difficult in many situations and maintaining enough contact throughout a drift in order to detect takes is usually impossible. At best, you only have a good drift and adequate contact during a short time during the drift. He said (I hope I’ve got this right) that he thought a large percentage of hookups on two-nymph dropper rigs are caused by the fish taking the top fly, thereby moving the indicator, causing the angler to set the hook, and then the tippet gets caught in the fish’s mouth and the dropper slides up to hook it. This makes a lot of sense to me for a few reasons. First of all, it explains those hookups on the dropper fly that get the fish outside the mouth in the lower jaw. Secondly, it explains why so many more hookups come on the dropper fly compared to the top fly (although there may be other reasons for that, as well). Finally, it explains hookups on fish that visibly take a dry fly, but end up hooked on the wet-fly dropper, which happens to me pretty often.

I’ve never thought of this and have never heard anyone else bring it up. Although I think that the lower nymph, the one on the dropper, usually hooks more fish because it is deeper in the water column, Bruce’s observation makes alot of sense and fits in with my experience. I’ve also had takes to a dry result in hookups, in the mouth, on the dropper. I always figured the fish took the dropper on the way up to the dry, but Bruce’s explanation makes more sense. However, this doesn’t explain the fish I took at Henry’s that had both nymphs in its mouth. PS I agree with your later post, IT IS UNETHICAL Willi

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He said (I hope I’ve got this right) that he thought a large percentage of hookups on two-nymph dropper rigs are caused by the fish taking the top fly, thereby moving the indicator, causing the angler to set the hook, and then the tippet gets caught in the fish’s mouth and the dropper slides up to hook it. This makes a lot of sense to me for a few reasons. First of all, it explains those hookups on the dropper fly that get the fish outside the mouth in the lower jaw. Secondly, it explains why so many more hookups come on the dropper fly compared to the top fly (although there may be other reasons for that, as well). Finally, it explains hookups on fish that visibly take a dry fly, but end up hooked on the wet-fly dropper, which happens to me pretty often.

The latter doesn’t happen to me very often, but as for the rest of it I find it totally believable.  I think all sorts of things might happen nymphing that we don’t completely understand.  That’s part of what I find fascinating about it You mentioned this was unethical in another post (if done on purpose I assume.)  Here’s another thing that’s unethical, but it increase my confidence in a sense.  Sometimes I simply snag a fish in a bottom fin or stomach when nymphing.  I don’t like it, but it tells me I was dead smack on top of a fish’s lie, and I was in tune to the most subtle "take".

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Question:

Tracey <rbranc…@mediaone.net> wrote in message

news:3A96A46C.45DF0E68@mediaone.net… > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems. > — > Tracey

My mistake…I suppose there could be occasions where this would not cause problems.  (shudders) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar >                      —Funky Winkerbean—

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Jadelee111512 <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

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I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jadelee111512 wrote: > >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

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Tracey wrote: > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it > >would cause marital problems. > If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem > like it’s a cause of problems.

That would be tres cool, if you think about it.  They could sell each other stuff ad nauseam and be filthy rich in no time, right? Ponzi 1, do you take Ponzi 2 to be your lawful wedded… Drew

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> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot

www.amway.com shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to the underworld of amway…)

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Ahhh, I see what it is now. Thanks for the link, btw. In my area we have "Stanley" , I think it’s a lot like Amway. Not my cup a tea. momalot – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Shepette wrote: > > I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > > momalot > www.amway.com > shepette  (who used to like momalot’s posts, too bad we’ve now lost her to > the underworld of amway…)

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ROFLOL ISIS "momalot" <dadalotmoma…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:3A96B436.6E33A6DB@hotmail.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I do not know what Amway work is. Is it a fortune 500 club? > momalot > Jadelee111512 wrote: > > >From: "B and B" > > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > > >becoming one. > > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > > >marital problems. > > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > > >> Just a fishing question here. > > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > >> Kevin > > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > > a relationship. > > jadelee

Response:

Run fast and far. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

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I agree with that, but Amway is in a class by itself. Amway’s just……… creepy — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Jadelee111512" <jadelee111…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010223130358.05491.00000364@ng-co1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >From: "B and B" > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message > >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… > >> Just a fishing question here. > >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way > >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > >> Kevin > At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding > different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage. Amway > is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within > a relationship. > jadelee

Response:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems.

Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

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>From: "B and B" >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

Those are examples of a few.  Any high stress job has a potential to effect a marriage. Too many to name.  We are not well prepared to handle the stressors of jobs and marriage. jadelee

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"B and B" wrote: >Being a phone sex operator can grate on a marriage too.  And so can just >about any occupation where a lot of travel is involved.

I could see how a lot of travel could grate on a marriage. Mom, for example, got more than just a bit fed up being home alone with the kids while dad was always out on the road selling insurance. He finally had to give it up, trading it in for teaching highschool and regular home hours. On the other hand, a tiny bit of work travel can be good for a marriage. For example, I’m happy for the time I have with my wife, but for the three or four times a year she’s off to trade shows, I enjoy that solitude time as well. As well, there have also been at least a few of her work trips where I’ve come along, we’ve extended our stay, and made a vacation of the situation more economically than if we had to pay the full shot for travel ourselves. So to my own family experiences at least, a lot of occupational travel can add to marital stress, where as a bit of occupational travel can actually be more beneficial to a marital relationship than none at all. CJ

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Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be when I was involved. Thanks for all the response, keep it coming Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: Amway > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

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I’ve always had the belief that Amway will ruin a relationship unless both partners are in it 100%. Let me guess – your wife makes next to nothing in real profit, but "will… someday" — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9frefdafcame5@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > when I was involved. > Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > Kevin > —– Original Message —– > From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > Subject: Re: Amway > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > way > > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)

Response:

Hi Kevin, I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s together….on NOT.  Figuratively and literally. I hope this is somewhat of an answer for you. — – First Light     @——-We are each of us angels with only one wing; and it’s when we embrace each other that we can fly.—-/—@ "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

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The company as a whole is successful. But the people in it, overwhelmingly, are not. They get you in for a year or two, the suckers buy *everything* they use/own through amway, then they realize they are making *zero* monry, and they drop out. They seem to recruit from the lower-middle / middle class mostly. The people easiest to sell "the good life" to, as those people will believe it. The poor usually won’t, and generally won’t have the ambition the follow through (and afford the initial "kit"). But the middle class will put the kit on the credit card, charge a few suits (for the weekly "pump me ups"), and generally feel proud for awhile that they have a "business". They get nice little business cards made, and listen to Zig-Zigler tell them how great life can be. Most of them are smiling on the outside and putting up a successful "front" (wearing clothing and taking trips they cannot afford, so they can "keep up"…. really. I had several friends in Amway. They would charge a new suit, and fly to Florida for a three hour meeting, and fly home the same day. stuff they could hardly afford to do – but Amway made them feel like they couldn’t afford NOT to – it’s a bizzare company). Anyway, I’ve rambled enough. I’ve seen this company close up, and see what it does to people. It’s sad. — JWB remove spamkiller to reply via e-mail "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99h3mt.4j4.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * Our relationshio has various small problems ie… insistence on using only > * Amway products (even if I don,t like that particular product) Granted Amway > * has some good products, But as any Company does they also have some bad ones > * or just plain some too expensive ones. I love my wife with all my heart, > * sometimes tho it seems that the Amway brainwashing borders on the > * ridiculous. By the way I am a former Amway brainwashee so I do know the > * other side and underrstand how they think. I was pretty disturbed by the way > * the marketing was carried out and the type of person I was turning out to be > * when I was involved. > That’s interesting. So, what kind of brainswashing do they do? What > kinds of people do they recruit? Why are they successful? > igor > * Thanks for all the response, keep it coming > * > * Kevin > * —– Original Message —– > * From: CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> > * Newsgroups: alt.support.marriage > * Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:36 AM > * Subject: Re: Amway > * > * > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" > * CupCaked <karensSP…@nac.net> wrote in message > * news:3aa09f57.22892148@news.nac.net… > * > "Kevin Stone" <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote: > * > > * > >Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their > * way > * > >of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > * > > * > That’s a VERY provocative question.  May I ask what brought it about? > * > > * > > * > > * >    http://www.cupcaked.com/cupcaked > * >  (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail) > * > * > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

As I’ve seen it described here and as I’ve seen it out here in RL, Amway is a religion of sorts.  It’s things like this that make me jest the concept of religion. ISIS "IgOr" <ignora…@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in message

news:slrn99j39n.jm9.ignoramus@nospam.invalid… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dan Kegel <d…@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote: > * First Light wrote: > * > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > * > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > * > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > * > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > * > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > * > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another. Another > * > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > * > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > * > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally. > * > * Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… > * there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things > I have yet to see a "fine" person in MLM. Fine people tend to not like > lying constantly. > — > Don’t sweat the petty things and don’t pet the sweaty things. – George

Carlin

Response:

Larry Kessler <l_k_e_s_s_l_e_r@w_t_._n_e_t> wrote in message

news:4cee9tksrq1jrfqniogd52t0emakba5sn3@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:11:14 -0500, "B and B" > <baboonnliz…@prodigy.net> wrote: > >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! > >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! > >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not > >becoming one. > >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality > >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause > >marital problems. > Nitpick Dept:  Most Borg vessels are cubes, not spheres.

Depends on which star trek you are watching.

Response:

"John Kendricks" <jd…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:3a99948c.245820765@news.cis.dfn.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) > preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they > want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend > frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing > tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their > friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. > nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. > Here are some good amway-info links: > http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html > http://skepdic.com/amway.html > http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ > http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm > If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or > quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links > could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself > much suffering, misery and agony.

I’ve found that these people who are ‘Quixtar/Amway Critics’ have no credibility at all on the subject, they are usually the most screwed-up-broke-done-nothing-in-life people I’ve ever met. Why on earth would I want to fill my head with a bunch garbage from people who have no credibility in the area of success?  I seriously doubt that these people ‘got in’ then ‘quit’ (actually quit something they probably didn’t put hardly any effort toward) and then when on to be successfull fathers, husbands, entreprenuers, race car drivers or anything.  I bet the the only good things they end up being good at is: justification & rationalization of why they are where they are finanically, complaining, remote control operation and butt print formation (in couch cushions). I’ve seen all sorts of different levels of success in this business opportunity and I’ve seen it actually pull dozens (probably 100s) of marriages together, and these are indirect benefits from any kind of prosperity.  For postive results like these, it requires to a certain amount of effort just like any kind of  business opportunity, job, church, etc. and if a person is too busy (translates to lazy) to apply himself  and put forth effort than he is going to fail. This IS the best business opportunity I have ever seen it provides a level playing field for everyone.  It is structured to make money and the business plan works only if you work it.  Depending upon where you are personally, mentally and emotionally, you may need to learn and develop some personal and business skills that will enable you to build a successful business.  So in order to succeed learn how to learn from someone who has already done what you want to do.  The main goal of business is to make money and this opportunity is a great way to get the money obstacle hurdled in your life unlike most jobs out there.  Jobs are simply not structured to create any kind of wealth for the employee. It IS NOT a religion, if any body tries to enforce their beliefs on you concerning your faith in your creator, they are off base.  This applies to anywhere in life including your boss at your job. Good business is never built on deception and if someone is using any kind of deceptive tactics then you should address this issue directly don’t give up until you are satisfied.  I’ve found that the truly successfull people in this business are very direct, honest and trustworthy; the business is structured so that success is based upon success and it is in nobody’s interest to decieve anybody. If you’re checking out this business, remember to consider the credibility of the person who is providing the information. And make sure to check it out for yourself and don’t listen to broke people or negative attitudes. Good Luck to you in what ever you decide to do -but decide to do something!

Response:

First Light wrote: > I’m not a distributor, but I do know a few.  A co-worker was married 16 > years when "they" got started in "the business".  That was about 6 years > ago.  Their divorce was final last summer.  W said he was never home and > found someone to fill in the gap.  Another co-worker says it ruined her > daughter’s first marriage for the same reason – one of the two of them was > always chasing a sale or going off to one function or another.  Another > couple  that I know make it work, but that’s because they literally do it > side by side.  As I understand the way that it’s structured, it’s > together….[or] NOT.  Figuratively and literally.

Yep.  Amway is a lot like a charismatic church… there are plenty of fine people in it, but they believe weird things – Dan

Response:

Everything you have said is true.  Amway (also now known as Quixtar) preys on people who cannot afford the things or the lifestyle they want, and brainwashes them to believe that if they will attend frequent seminars, spend all their time listening to brainwashing tapes, buy exclusively from amway or quixtar, and pester their friends, relatives, coworkers, aquaintances,  people in malls, etc. nonstop, they will become fabulously wealthy. Here are some good amway-info links: http://www.awod.com/gallery/rwav/slarsen/amway.html http://skepdic.com/amway.html http://www.apollowebworks.com/amway/ http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/amway/amo_qmo.htm If anyone reading this is planning on getting involved with amway or quixtar, or is already involved with them, reading the above links could be the single most important thing you ever do to save yourself much suffering, misery and agony.

Response:

Just a fishing question here. Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? Kevin

Response:

Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! Stay away!  Stay away!!!! Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not becoming one. Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause marital problems. Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message

news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just a fishing question here. > Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does their way > of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? > Kevin

Response:

>of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it >would cause marital problems.

If *both* are involved (and are devoted to it), it doesn’t seem like it’s a cause of problems. — Tracey Indigo: What sailors do when they see a bar                      —Funky Winkerbean—

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->From: "B and B" >Aaaauuugggghhhh!!!!!!!!!! >Stay away!  Stay away!!!! >Oh, wait.  You were asking about being married to an amway distributor, not >becoming one. >Well…I don’t know what to tell you, but given the "borg sphere" mentality >of everyone I have ever met who was into that I can believe it would cause >marital problems. >Kevin Stone <kdstone…@vermontel.net> wrote in message >news:t9d626mr61ho47@corp.supernews.com… >> Just a fishing question here. >> Does anyone here have a spouse who is an Amway distributor? Does they way >> of doing business or actions cause problems in your marriage? >> Kevin

At the very least, this inquiry could bring up an intersting topic regarding different professions and the effect they might have  on the marriage.  Amway is one of many that has the potential to create its own set of problems within a relationship. jadelee

Response:

Question:

I now wade the same water *without* the scarey vibrations.

I get the vibrations even with my Folstaf.  That tells me I better not walk into that water. Mu

Response:

Hello: Who is the manufacturer of Folstaff wading staffs? Bob

Response:

Hello: Who is the manufacturer of Folstaff wading staffs?

Fly-Tyer

Question:

I have a friend who’s been breaking my balls about how he’s been hooking up consistently with winter largemouths.(He’s a spin fisherman)The winters haven’t been very cold in the northeast lately so many lakes and ponds have yet to freeze over.I’ve tried a few different things with my flytackle but I haven’t been able to hook up.I did get a bass once two years ago,while fishing for hatcheries,using a large dry with a hares ear dropper size 12.If anyone out there is having sucess in this area I’d appreciate the info.I want to shove a nice size bass right in that smug bastards face.

Response:

Even if the water hasn’t frozen, you need to go deep and slow for these northern winter largemouths. Not really what you would call typical fly-fishing.  You might want to try a slow sinking line.  It would take forever to get your fly down into the strike zone but unlike a fast sink line you’ll be able to fish slowly and still keep the fly in the fish zone once it gets down there. A Carolina rigged plastic worm or salamander would be my recommendation. Mu

Response:

I am in the south fishing in temps of the 40’s.Tp our bass thats the same as hanging out wit Ms. Pauls. I go to a pattern I tie called a Crystal Puff. It is White long cactus chanille head with X lg bead chain eyes, with a tail of whit bucktail and crystal flash with wide white hackle feathers (3 together on each side) or my favorite silver badger feathers. All of this on a mustad 2/0 – 3/0 hook #7766 Fish it slow with quick darts. On days that the temp does rise look for flats and shoals with dark bottoms with EZ access to deep drop offs. They will come up to warm up there. Good luck. It has been working for me.

Response:

Question:

George, also help me. when no one else did. I put up a post. (no one answered) George replied on a private E-mail.  and I thank you again. George keep it up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey George All I want to say is that George gave me a break when I was struggling on this newsgroup.  I have only been on a week or so and therefore I am now getting a feel for it. Where were all you guys when I had a query, come on ‘Live And Let Live’ George helped me out and I appreciate that. Stop arguing….Lets Fish Pete Derbyshire, England ______ I want to make this perfectly clear to everyone.  Wayne Chan made the same mistake that I made a few weeks ago.  Mr. Chan is a dear, sweet man and he is a Chinese American who deals in Bamboo.  Mr Chan wrote me a letter and hit the wrong carbon button because the letter was supposed to go to a second party also.  You guessed it, he blew it! Just two minutes ago, I finished explaining to Mr. Wayne Chan his error and how everyone is furious at me (which is all right) but I am concerned about sincere people leaving due to a misunderstanding.  This man, Mr. Wayne Chan, is terribly sorry.  The man is about in tears for all the orders this will cost me and the change in heart regarding my name and place in ROFF. I am NOT a spammer and neither is Mr. Chan.  Two like errors have occurred and shit happens in life.  I will go so far as to say if there is anyone in this world that wants me to pay for a week’s worth of their ROFF time because of any spams resulting from this one time error, I will pay it.  I will be responsible.  Just figure out how many minutes X the rate and I will cover any hardship anyone in ROFF has suffered.  I can’t do any better then that. I would like to also state to this beautiful group that I will not tolerate anyone trying to black mail this group or this person. Some of you have known me my entire fly fishing career.  I don’t lie and I don’t do mean things.  We all make errors.  But we are surrounded by individuals that envy us and who want to destroy us.  This is the time for all of us to come together. I want to tell everyone in public here that I am not the bad guy here and that I do not want Mike Connor or anyone to leave this wonderful chat room.  There is too much history surrounding us.  Your real enemy is Ken Fortenberry and his plant in this group.  Stop and think ladies and gentlemen.  Do your all really think I would do such a thing to hurt anyone here?  Who is the new blood that arrived recently that suddenly, we have these kinds of problems? Mike, I love you, we all love you.  Don’t leave.  None of us here did this too you.  How could we?  Why would we want too? Anyone that wants to talk to me personally, may call me collect in the next six hours.  I’ll pay for the phone bill.  Everyone that is, except Ken Fortenberry. All of this is bullshit, and no one here is perpetuating it.  Believe this.  I am a friend.  If you don’t believe that, then anyone who says they won’t use my products because they believe I’m doing this can go to hell.  I will not admit to something I am not guilty of.  I am innocent.  I deserve the benefit of the doubt. Sincerely, George Gehrke/American Sportsman (Now excuse me for about a half hour because I’m going to talk to my attorney about stalkers and black mailers) —

Question:

[ polish.txt < 1K ]

Dear Friends, I now carry "Wenol" famous metal polish.This is great for Auto,Boats,Antiques,Cycles and more.(Wheels,Silver,Brass,Formica tops and more). 1.Original Wenol (Red Tube)- our work horse, is an aggressive cleaner for all metals.A small amount will do the job! 2."Ultra-Soft" auto Wenol (Blue Tube)-The first ever and only true "Show Quality"polish made.This extra gentle polishing compound is ideal for maintaining expensive custom wheels,silver and all fine metals.A little dab will do ya! (Long lasting shine you have ever seen) Each tube costs: $12.00 ea. (4 oz.) 3 or more costs: $10.00 ea. (4 oz.) Shipping costs: $2.00 ea. tube Big 40 oz.can= $49.95 ea. plus $4.75 shipping Same day shipping! 100% Quaranteed! Send check or money order to: Parick R. McNeil (PRM Marketing) 4454 Lugo Ave. Chino Hills, Calif. 91709  USA (909) 597-5932 info:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dear Friends, I now carry "Wenol" famous metal polish.This is great for Auto,Boats,Antiques,Cycles and more.(Wheels,Silver,Brass,Formica tops and more). 1.Original Wenol (Red Tube)- our work horse, is an aggressive cleaner for all metals.A small amount will do the job! 2."Ultra-Soft" auto Wenol (Blue Tube)-The first ever and only true "Show Quality"polish made.This extra gentle polishing compound is ideal for maintaining expensive custom wheels,silver and all fine metals.A little dab will do ya! (Long lasting shine you have ever seen) Each tube costs: $12.00 ea. (4 oz.) 3 or more costs: $10.00 ea. (4 oz.) Shipping costs: $2.00 ea. tube Big 40 oz.can= $49.95 ea. plus $4.75 shipping Same day shipping! 100% Quaranteed! Send check or money order to: Parick R. McNeil (PRM Marketing) 4454 Lugo Ave. Chino Hills, Calif. 91709  USA (909) 597-5932 info:

Hey Patrick, This is a flyfishing newsgroup. Don’t advertise your non-flyfishing shit on it. JACKASS!

Response:

Question:

Sorry, I forgot to mention the price and ordering number for the outfit below, it is $39.97 and order # D8C-26617.  They also have a couple of fly fishing vests, a 9 pocket mesh for $24.97 and a 17 pocket classic for 29.97. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just saw this in the Sportsman’s Guide catalog for you guys that are looking for a cheap outfit to learn to fly fish or teach you son flyfishing.  The toll free ordering number is 1-800-888-3006.. 6/7 weight 8 foot Martin 8067C fiberglass fly rod Martin 6355 reel WF6F Line 100 yards of backing 7 1/2 foot tapered leader 4 pound test tippet — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS

Response:

I just saw this in the Sportsman’s Guide catalog for you guys that are looking for a cheap outfit to learn to fly fish or teach you son flyfishing.  The toll free ordering number is 1-800-888-3006.. 6/7 weight 8 foot Martin 8067C fiberglass fly rod Martin 6355 reel WF6F Line 100 yards of backing 7 1/2 foot tapered leader 4 pound test tippet — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail GO TO http://users.ccnet.com/~emh FOR TRAVEL TIE BOX PLANS

Response:

Question:

On casting in the surf.. A long rod helps (I use a 9 1/2 foot 7 weight, a 10 footer would be better) and a stripping basket is a necessity.  I also tend towards pretty stout weighted eyes on streamers an lead-head charlies (Texas coast selection here) to keep the surf from knocking them around too much.  Be sure you hang around cuts through the bars even if you’re in the wash.. Good luck, Andy Schreckenghost

Response:

Anybody fly fish from the beach?  

There are two magazines, "Fly Fishing in Saltwater" and "Saltwater Fly Fishing", both have had articles on flyfishing from the beach.  There have also been articles detailing fly fishing from the California coast.  Fly Fishing in Saltwater also has a web site at: www.flyfishinsalt.com. While the site does not give all the information I would like about saltwater flyfishing, it is a good start.  Another web site is www.reel-time.com.  This is the Reel-Time, The Journal of Saltwater Fly fishing.  This is a pretty good site.  They have some good articles and an archive of articles that may just answer your fishing from the beach questions