Question:
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ?
What would anyone do with a ’starving’ fish – bury it in their garden to fertilize the tomatoes? Feed it to the cat? Cat might not eat it! Ralph H
Response:
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO.
Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask? Frankly I’m surprised you have any time left to actually fish – if you actually *do* fish… /dave
Response:
For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul Marriner
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW.
Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ? Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases. I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’. Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature. A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning. The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases. The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW
Response:
Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation.
But… When you’re fishing a hatch, you play the fish buring one of those *brief* periods when food is abundant. If the sprint around the block is always at diinertime, and the food is gone by the time you return, it can add up. I’m not saying, "don’t fish," I’m just saying that there are impacts involved in c&r, just like any style of fishing. (Besides, during a heavy hatch, it can be a lot of fun to lean the rod against a tree and watch the fish work, without trying to catch them. Can improve your fishing, too.) CQ
Response:
A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?
Not when a hatch is on. High country fish can be very selective then. It makes sense for a trout to become selective when mayflies are hatching because it’s a temporary abundance. The nymphs, baitfish, et al, will still be there after the hatch is over. CQ
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ? Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases. I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’. Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature. A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning. The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases. The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW
Sorry Tim I think this little bit of work from your imagination is a clunker. But then nobody bats 100. I posted my reponses previously so won’t repeat them. hope you don’t mind me asking but did you base this on any study or work that shows fish in those alpine streams you fish are so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have shrunken concave bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ? Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases. I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’. Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature. A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning. The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases. The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW
Sorry time but IMO this work from your imagination is a clunker. I’ve posted my responses elsewhere and won’t repeat them. However let me ask did you base this post on any kind of study on the alpine streams in your area that indicated the fish were so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving; it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have concave shrunken bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H
Response:
: That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.
Response:
A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours. I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds. Slightly less than a
Good Grief! What kind of rod could he have been using. I have landed steelhead this size on a 4 wt. rod in less than 20 minutes. Three and a half hours is torture! -Burton
Response:
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW
Nah…I just wanted to remind you that there are bigger fish to fry.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways.
Ok then. What I am hearing… Our [flyfishermen's] definition of the ethics of catch and release… "We may cause indiscriminate harm to a wild animal, so long as the animal does not normally die as a result, in our search for happiness. Our metric will only include mortality and will not include incidental suffering or non-fatal injury" Or, something like that… I laugh at our free usage of the term ‘respect’ for a wild animal. It is really, really laughable (if it weren’t so sad). Wham !!! Set the Hook !!!! Wham, Lay the rod into it !! she’s runnin’ for the rapids…then this thoughtful ‘respectful’ release…sometimes with an accompanying little kiss on the lips. Respect ? I don’t think so. Cause for self-congratulation, perhaps. TimW
Response:
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…
Finally the real meat of the issues. Isn’t it time we humans get a little more ,NO! a lot more involve with the issues of rectifying and push for the preservation of our current watersheds. When their all gone who will be there to make new ones? The issues may vary from state to state, but they are the sum of all the parts. Trout are a good indicator for water quality and the quality of life to which we an ultimately attached. Seems to me that a new thread needs to be started here. Our fingers are dancing on the very tools that could start a very positive movement. What do you say guys? How about it, Tim, George, and Al? On another sad note, my ISP really sucks and I only receive less than half of the news posting and feel like a mushroom on lost thread portions. If anybody felt like CC me on your postings I would sure appreciate it. — Doug Knight metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask?
I’ll be happy when the popularity of the sport subsides by say, 80%. I’ll be patting myself on the back all the way down to the deep run behind Pat’s rock, which will be devoid of people and clogged with fish. TimW
Response:
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW
OK Tim, You were reading my mind. What are we playing with here, threads, fish, or environmental action? Isn’t it time we all get involved. Where do I sign up? It’s time to give something back. Please make note to CC, my ISP really sucks. — Doug Knight metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.
Response:
Tim pardon me but this is vapour ware to the nth degree. You’re expounding proifically on a hypothetical situation about which nothing is known. Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation. If you’re going to fabricate something please at least make it credible and believable. from Your Biggest fan Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish. It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae. What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation. Bingo. Fish On. The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ? Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW
Response:
The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.
A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation. Bingo. Fish On. The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ?
(I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ? Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?
It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been. It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What? If it was an overcrowded stream, you’re right. If there are so many fish in the creek that the one you just caught is starving, kill and eat it. That population sounds like it needs to be thinned, in my no-expert opinion. A lot of the higher streams I’ve fished have what seem to be normal numbers of fish – they are healthy, active, and not swarming all over each other. I’d imagine that at least some of them have native fish, and they *are* all wild fish. There seems to be plenty of food. The only fish I’ll take out of a small, highish creek around here are brook trout or the rare brown; no cutts or rainbows. I don’t feel bad about that, because these fish aren’t monsters and they are generally not starving. The fight is quick and one-sided, and they are undoubtedly more stunned than exhausted when it’s over. Of any trout, these are the ones I like to lay eyes on the most. C&K seems like a bad idea to have catch on when it comes to these streams. If you fish a heavier rod while practicing C&R, you release a healthier fish but probably shouldn’t call it ’sport.’ If you fish a really light, sporting rod; play the trout for ten minutes; kill, keep, and eat it, you have a fish that tastes bad. I don’t call what I do with those little cutts and redsides ’sport,’ and the brook trout I keep are delicious. The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most. In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW
Response:
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?
No.
Response:
The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. I don’t get it. Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?
because the midges are abundant thr fish gains more calories than it expends by feeding exclusively on midges and ignoring the sculpin. It’s a hypothesis used to explain selectivity Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water? Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from? You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!?
It’s not my idea. No I don’t mean they are confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. You’re right, that didn’t make any sense. It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast. The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less. So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip. They don’t have to budget their energy, really. I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it.
Salmon don’t always make a one way trip. Atlantics and steelhead usually return to the sea. Also salmon don’t stare to death they are genetically programed to die after spawning. Some stocks that are as sea fat as other go only a few yrds above tide water. Pacific salmon die of multiple organ failure that can’t simply be explain by starvation. Also genetically they can make the switch from salt to fresh water only once. The die off could be an adaption to transfer rich ocean nutrients to their native streams and enhance their offsprings chances for survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. That’s true. It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow. If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. Ralph H
Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No.
You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. TimW
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…
Response:
The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom.
I don’t get it. Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one? Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water? Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from? You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!? (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying.
You’re right, that didn’t make any sense. It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast. The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less. So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip. They don’t have to budget their energy, really. I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it. if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out.
That’s true. It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow. If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H
Response:
Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?
A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours. I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds. Slightly less than a half hour a pound… Phil
Response:
A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?
The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. You’re right a starving fish is unlikley to be selective. (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.)
what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out.
if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been. It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What? [snip] The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.
This bugs me too and I think many have pushed the light tackle envelope too far, way too far. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most. In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.
Ralph H
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The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish. It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae. What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation. Bingo. Fish On. The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ? Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW
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I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff
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I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff
Hi Cliff, Fishing dry flies is a fun, rewarding experience. You didn’t say but are you using a dry fly floatant like Loon, Gink, or BT’s? That helps keep the flies floating. In time any fly will become water logged and should be placed on the fleece patch on your vest to dry and a replacement tied on. Yes it’s quite ok to fish riffles and choppy waters but that does not mean to pass up the softer water and eddies. I really recommend you fish the same water you nymph fish in. If you catch fish in this water with nymph, then a dry fly should work as well. Also it’s really important to observe what the fish are doing. If they are rising in an area ten minutes spent just seeing what they seem to be feeding on can give an idea what you want to use as a fly. If nothing is happening on the surface I find attractor flies like Royal Wulff, Humpy, or Stimulator to be a good searching pattern. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)
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<snip Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff
Hi Cliff, In addition to the points made in Al Beatty’s excellent post I might add that we sometimes fish heavily dressed flies in heavy water and lightly dressed flies on smooth water. I hope this helps, Alan. Alan Barnard Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, California WWW Fly Tyer http://www.ns.net/~barnard
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I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff
Another thing you should try is to fish more upstream than across to get better drifts. The more of your line that you can get in the same current lane the easier the drift is. You’ll notice it takes a softer touch to mend line on dry flies than on nymphs. If you treat the leader with paste floatant before you get it wet, it will stay on top instead of in the surface film and allow you to mend the entire leader if needed. Otherwise the leader will absorb enough water in about 10 minutes to just sink into the surface film, and when you try to mend it, the line will mend but the leader won’t and it will drag the fly under or out of position. Also, a short excellent drift (5-10ft) is better than a long mediocre drift (20+ feet). Practice your stealth and remember the first cast into the right spot has the best chance of success. Good Luck, Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again. So what if they eat other fish? If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).
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I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff
Start doing it. The trout will tell you if you’re doing it right or wrong.
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I live in Denver, Colorado and fish the South Platte in Deckers and also Cheesman Canyon. I’ve been fishing nymths 98% of the time and do quite well. I fly cast okay, but seem to have a hard time fishing the dries. Keeping them floating right,ect… Anyway, I’ve wondered if its best to fish in short casts and if its possible to fish riffles and choppy waters? Should I only fish the eddies? Any suggestions would be appreciated because I’m going to be fishing dries more often. Thanks, Cliff
Ty finding a copy of "Prospecting for Trout" a great book. Don Burns
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I think you’re slightly missing the point about dry fly fishing as to whether to make long casts or short, fish riffles, etc. The thing about fishing dries is that you are casting to trout that are rising for flies. That is, when they rise and make a swirl at the surface, the fish is telling you where it is. So you have to cast to it, no matter whether it is a short or long cast, whether it is rising in a riffle or an eddy. You have to make the cast that will get your fly to it. In my opinion that’s what makes dry fly fishing much more exciting that fishing wet flies or nymphs and just covering the water in hopes that a fish will hit. It is a totally visual type of fishing, as you cast that dry to the rising fish and watch with excitement and hope that the fish will be fooled by your artificial. I realize there are times when there are no fish rising and I just cast an attractor fly in hopes that a fish will hit it. But the real excitement comes when you’re fishing a hatch of mayflies and fish are rising everywhere for them. Of course this type of fishing can become very frustrating as you go thru your flybox trying to figure out what fly the fish are taking. Of course, you’ll get a lot of practice tying knots at times like that. That’s what sets dry fly fishing apart from other types of fishing.
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