Question:

Seriously, what about its environmental impact.  I just switched to tin splitshots and no longer wrap my flies with lead.  I do eat 25% of the fish I catch and like to hunt water fowl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess I’m going to have to call that last fisherman I had this fall and ask him what brand of flouro he was using as there was a HUGE difference in visibility of the flouro vs mono. The flouro was extremely visible even through 18" to 24" of river water. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono. The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

Response:

  Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. Flouro isn’t my choice for dries but I do like it for nymphing. Overall, It’s not my choice for leader material because I don’t like making major changes to my leader just to switch between a dry and a nymph. However, in a situation like we had at the San Juan where there wasn’t much dry action, I will use it. I also like it on the dropper on a dry/dropper rig. Willi

Response:

  Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use   fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. I don’t use it for nymphing   either, because I think the putative benefits are nonexistant, or at   least are so miniscule that they don’t justify the expense and bother. I used some of the second generation stuff on the Juan this year and it’s very strong, tough stuff. I’m as cheap as they come and I’m willing to pay the price.

The LAST thing you need, Willi especially on the San Juan, is fluorocarbon. In fact, in your case I think it’s unethical.

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies? Thanks, ALex

Way cool Alex, congrats on getting your KPOS…I know you will grow to love it, as I do…collect the whole set and be confident in the knowledge that you have saved the job of some little Korean cutie. Frank Sr. previous advice on tippet size noted

Response:

Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. It sinks, too.

The sinking doesn’t bother me much. In fact, it’s a positive, because I believe a tippet under the surface is less visible than one floating in the surface tension, especially in calm water and sunny conditions. I don’t think FC sinks readily enough to pull under the surface a well floating fly, although it may be a factor with waterlogged or otherwise marginal flies. My objection is just the stiffness, which complicates a drag-free drift.

Response:

I have used the Umpqua super fluoro and find it a lot softer than deceiver for higher knot strength. I like it and may, repeat, may change completely to it before the end of the season. (Consumer warning on above advice: yes I am commercially connected with Umpqua.) Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. It sinks, too.

Response:

Jon Cook writes: Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. It sinks, too.

Damn straight!  Makes it wonderful for nymphing.  <g   If you grease it to within ten inches of the fly, that portion will float, but the portion untreated will sink just below the surface, but not enough to sink the fly.  I don’t like its stiffness, however, for dries, but it is adequate when I am too lazy to switch. Dave

Response:

I have used the Umpqua super fluoro and find it a lot softer than deceiver for higher knot strength. I like it and may, repeat, may change completely to it before the end of the season. (Consumer warning on above advice: yes I am commercially connected with Umpqua.)

Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater? I’ve had a few instances this season where a fisherman shows up with the new fluoro and the fish just don’t seem to want to eat his bug. I change him over to the old stuff (I use Umpqua but I’m not commercially connected to them) and, bammo, lots more hits with the same fly and all. I’ve held a rolled up fluoro leader next to a rolled up regular leader under water. I can see the fluoro plain as day. Couldn’t hardly see the other stuff. I’m trying to recall what brands were the suspect material but for the life of me, I can’t recall. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Brian Nelson writes: Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater?

Yes, you can see it.  Quite well, aamof.  But, my experience with Orvis FC and Orvis Superstrength is just the opposite of what you note.  Went from 5x Superstrength to 5x FC and caught fish immediately.  I like it for nymphing because it holds up better to abrasion from rocks.  YMMV, of course.  <g Dave

Response:

Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brian Nelson writes: Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater? Yes, you can see it.  Quite well, aamof.  But, my experience with Orvis FC and Orvis Superstrength is just the opposite of what you note.  Went from 5x Superstrength to 5x FC and caught fish immediately.  I like it for nymphing because it holds up better to abrasion from rocks.  YMMV, of course.  <g Dave

Response:

"Brian D. Nelson" Has anyone here checked as to whether or not you can actually see the flouro leader/tippet material when it’s underwater? I’ve had a few instances this season where a fisherman shows up with the new fluoro and the fish just don’t seem to want to eat his bug. I change him over to the old stuff (I use Umpqua but I’m not commercially connected to them) and, bammo, lots more hits with the same fly and all. I’ve held a rolled up fluoro leader next to a rolled up regular leader under water. I can see the fluoro plain as day. Couldn’t hardly see the other stuff. I’m trying to recall what brands were the suspect material but for the life of me, I can’t recall.

I haven’t had any real problems at all brian, but one thing I find interesting when fishing dries on fluoro is that it seems to have more trouble breaking the surface tension. When fishing on stillwaters I have all manner of problems getting it to sink at all. Of course, once it does break though it sinks faster than mono but getting it to break through can be a heck of a problem.. any thoughts. Clark

Response:

Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Could it be floating more as I mentioned above? I believe the "imprint" in the surface film is the biggest problem with it on smoother waters. Clark

Response:

Just as a footnote, my experience was with dries, not nymphing. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com Could it be floating more as I mentioned above? I believe the "imprint" in the surface film is the biggest problem with it on smoother waters.

Could be. All I know is it was very easily seen while under water whereas the mono basically disappeared and it did make a big difference (at least to me it did) in the number of fish that came up to eat the bug. I’ll have to do a little ’speriment the next time I have some available. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

The sinking doesn’t bother me much. In fact, it’s a positive, because I believe a tippet under the surface is less visible than one floating in the surface tension, especially in calm water and sunny conditions. I don’t think FC sinks readily enough to pull under the surface a well floating fly, although it may be a factor with waterlogged or otherwise marginal flies. My objection is just the stiffness, which complicates a drag-free drift.

I’ve used it a good bit and the sinking doesn’t seem to be a problem (I agree with RW’s comment about it), but FC does appear to break more easily at the knot. Maybe that’s a function of its stiffness, but I believe FC’s advantage in visibility is outweighed by its stiffness, relative fragility at the knot, and expense. Bob

Response:

Yes, you can see it.  Quite well, aamof.  But, my experience with Orvis FC and Orvis Superstrength is just the opposite of what you note.  Went from 5x Superstrength to 5x FC and caught fish immediately.  I like it for nymphing because it holds up better to abrasion from rocks.

Funny, last year I took along the Orvis FC to the Salmon R, & it seemed to suffer more abrasion than plain mono.   So much so, I almost abandoned fluorocarbon for fear that all the surface abrasion would negate the refractive advantages.   (Then again this was 2x stuff, so it was a lot more visible to begin with.) Joe F.

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies?

After buying a new rod, that is exactly what I wonder too. Depends on how bushy the flies are and other conditions.  Experiment.  Use a tippet that will cast the fly where you want it, but not stiff enough to lay out straight.  Start with, say, 5x and see if it curls up nicely for you.

Response:

Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff.

reasons not to use flourocarbon: 1) too stiff for many purposes (harder to make a drag free float) 2) more expensive 3) hardness makes good knots elusive: IE the line doesn’t break, but    knots often unravel 4) the stiffness of the line can cause hellatious tangles.    …accidentally bounce the leader off a branch and you often    reel back a monstrous spider web. 5) environmental pollution:    nylon absorbs water and breaks down with UV exposure.    nylon lasts a long time, but flourocarbon lasts (by comparison) forever.

Response:

"while_1" reasons not to use flourocarbon: 1) too stiff for many purposes (harder to make a drag free float) 2) more expensive 3) hardness makes good knots elusive: IE the line doesn’t break, but    knots often unravel 4) the stiffness of the line can cause hellatious tangles.    …accidentally bounce the leader off a branch and you often    reel back a monstrous spider web. 5) environmental pollution:    nylon absorbs water and breaks down with UV exposure.    nylon lasts a long time, but flourocarbon lasts (by comparison)

forever. Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono. 1) The new generation stuff is more supple than many equivalent monos. 2) Yep it is, but as you don’t have to refresh your stocks each season it can be more value for money for many. 3) This has been pretty much negated. 4) The stiffness has gone. 5) Mono isn’t exactly environmentally friendly either. The onus is on the angler to ensure adequate cleanup of excess pieces. In a reality sense the length of time flouro stays on snag isn’t all that different to mono. Clark Clark

Response:

Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono.

The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

Response:

"rw" < – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

I would agree to some degree with your conclusions. I don’t think the differences are THAT huge. But I think there are differences and times will arise where one will give you an advantage over the other. I don’t believe either material is perfect in  certain circumstances one will out perform the other. Having said that. My preliminary results using the new Super-Flouro is pretty encouraging. I’m not using it totally exclusively, but at the moment that’s only because I haven’t to been able to get it in all the sizes I want. I think I will but that doesn’t mean I wont find situations where I wont find a situation where I’ll want to use mono anymore either. Clark

Response:

I guess I’m going to have to call that last fisherman I had this fall and ask him what brand of flouro he was using as there was a HUGE difference in visibility of the flouro vs mono. The flouro was extremely visible even through 18" to 24" of river water. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nearly all of the above reasons would have been true of the first generation of Fluorocarbon that came on the market. I suggest you try some of the newer stuff, it is much better and in many cases is superior on many levels to mono. The "selling point" of fluorocarbon (FC) is that’s it’s less visible underwater than because its index of refraction is closer to that of water than is the index of refraction of mono. I assume we’re all agreed on that. (It’s definitely not the price Some time ago I looked up the indices of refraction of "typical" FC and mono and compared them to that of fresh water. Sure enough, the FC was closer, but it wasn’t THAT MUCH closer — maybe halfway. I didn’t save the numbers and I don’t feel like looking them up at the moment. If it had been SPOT ON, I would have been impressed, but it wasn’t. The physics and neurophysics of what makes something more or less "visible" are complex. I was still skeptical about the claim. Then I took a length of FC and a length of mono (same diameters), put them into a glass of water, and looked at them. They looked about the same. After that, I was even more skeptical, and I remain so. We’ve heard anecdotal stories about how no one was catching fish, then someone switched to FC and started catching, and then everyone else switched and everyone started catching like crazy. I don’t put any credence at all on those stories. The same damn thing might happen for any number of other reasons.

Response:

  Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use   fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. I don’t use it for nymphing   either, because I think the putative benefits are nonexistant, or at   least are so miniscule that they don’t justify the expense and bother. I used some of the second generation stuff on the Juan this year and it’s very strong, tough stuff. I’m as cheap as they come and I’m willing to pay the price. Willi

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies? Thanks, ALex

Response:

4x to 5x works well.  I am leary of flourocarbon.  The stuff reminds me of the gas that breaks down the ozone in solid form.  Presentation is everything.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies? Thanks, ALex

Response:

I just recevied the three forks 3wt rod I ordered, and I went to try it out. It was much easier to cast than my 20 dollar wal*mart rod. It seems to have a pretty slow action, which is nice after casting the broomstick like shakespear. I was wondering, what size tippet to use for 14-18 size dry flies?

5x normally. If the conditions are really difficult (very clear, smooth water, bright sunlight, picky fish) then 6x might be better. Al Hammel mentioned fluorocarbon in a negative way. I agree. Don’t use fluorocarbon for dry flies. It’s too stiff. I don’t use it for nymphing either, because I think the putative benefits are nonexistant, or at least are so miniscule that they don’t justify the expense and bother.

Response:

Question:

I got an Outcast Fat Cat 66 VBoat for my birthday  and spent the day fishing a lovely pond on the edge of town. A friend who works for CO DOW gave me a tip on a low-pressure piece of stocked water and man oh man was he right! I have never in my life had a more productive day of fly fishing. This was my first time floating and I’m just amazed at the experience. I would like to meet other float tubers in the Boulder/Front Range area who would like to get together and fish. Reply here. Woo Hoo! Oh, btw, I’m 38. -bh

Response:

I got an Outcast Fat Cat 66 VBoat for my birthday  and spent the day fishing a lovely pond on the edge of town. A friend who works for CO DOW gave me a tip on a low-pressure piece of stocked water and man oh man was he right! I have never in my life had a more productive day of fly fishing. This was my first time floating and I’m just amazed at the experience. I would like to meet other float tubers in the Boulder/Front Range area who would like to get together and fish. Reply here. Woo Hoo! Oh, btw, I’m 38. -bh

Happy Birthday, B! Got me one of these devices too, but never got to try it. Blew up (Booom) on the first trip. Never reached the water though, lucky me! Just got a replacement innertube, if I dare to use it… Tight lines and safe floats! Stefan, Sweden

Response:

Question:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

        why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.  I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott      why not just post all their pictures, with names, family member’s names, and school lunch schedule.  that ought to make *somebody* happy…. wayno

It’s a good thing my new Cabela’s clearance moleskin shirt sheds nasally- ejected coffee like water off a duck’s ass, or I would be really pissed right now   Scott

Response:

A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A group outing makes the most sense.  Contact your local Scout office and volunteer.  Definitely, if there’s a Scout camp nearby that would be an ideal opportunity because they are heavy on merit badges during camp.  On the off chance that they already offer the program at camp, remember that not all the boys can make it to camp, so it would be an excellent gesture to offer a separate program. You can get some good info here: http://www.bsaflyfishing.com/ I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks, Stan.  I’ll let you know what we come up with. Scott

Response:

I served my term as assistant scoutmaster and have helped do this before there was a flyfishing badge.  It was just a fishing badge at the time and three of us did it for the scouts in our sons troop and one other. Call the local counsel (there on the web) and get a list of the troops near you.  They will have the names and phone numbers of the troop Scoutmasters.  Call the troop leaders and tell them what you are willing to do.  They will be all over you.  They are always looking for and welcome help. The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.  The emphasis is to have the scouts do all the work; your role is to be teacher and advisor. You can run the program for the whole troop or for just a couple of boys, depends on how many are interested. It’s the boys who decide if they want to get the badge. If your names on the list as an advisor some boys will seek you out. Some of the things we did were:  1.) Gave hands on demos on fly tying at one of their regular meetings.  We started using a parachute cord and an 8/0 hook and then let them go with the six vices and various materials we brought. They all managed to tie a couple of flies.  2.) Depending on where they meet you can bring in some rods and give casting instructions. 3.) You can let them come to your house and work at your bench and tie a few flies. .  You have to have at least two boys there at a time, no one on one instruction is allowe.  Let them see you stuff, explain how it works and maybe cast some in your back yard.  This is the point where some of them become lifetime flyfishers.  4.) You take them on an outing.  This part may educate you as much as them.  Pick a spot that safe and has catchable fish.  I wouldn’t count on a lake at a Boy Scout Camp having any cacheable fish. This is where you will need more help.  Get more volunteers for the trip one on one instruction is a big help here.    Twenty wild kids on a river with fly rods, wading, throwing rocks, and just being boys. It’s a great experience.  I cannot recommend it enough. .     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

The scouts have booklets that detail the steps for earning every merit badge.

Apparently it will cost $15,000 to print up all the booklets and the scouts are currently seeking donations to defray that cost. Mu

Response:

I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something.

There’s one on the White river in central WI.  Great hex hatch too.  Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though. Wolfgang

Response:

Don’t know about a dozen or so scouts flailing the water in the dark though.

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Response:

A noble quest, but I don’t think I’d wanna be the responsible party that hands them a fish hook or anything else that could potentially put me on the defendent end of a PI suit when somebody sticks a hook in his eye.   Maybe a dozen pairs of cheap safety glasses would be a good investment. Call me paranoid, Joe F.

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues.   Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid. Scott

Response:

Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Response:

Both TU and the Scouts have mechanisms to deal with insurance issues. Safetly glasses should be mandatory.  I won’t cast without them.  I also walk around with a whistle in my vest, but I’m paranoid.

It’s been my limited experience that should anything unfortunate happen, TU, BSA, the rodmaker, the hook manufacturer, and you personally will get named in a suit.   Sure, you’d probably get out of any liability, but it’ll still cost a few shiny nickles in legal fees.   Lawsuits are a bitch for the innocent.   Didn’t mean to get so serious about it, but being married to a (former) property/casualty insurance agent will do that to you.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wiscoy Creek runs right through Camp Sam Wood right near Pike, NY. I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions. I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

Thanks.  There’s also a pretty nice campground right on the Eastkoy that might be suitable.  Not many tent spots, though.  Seems taken up by permanent RVs Scott

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I noticed that the Boy Scouts have started a FF Merit Badge, and I see an opportunity for our TU Chapter to do a little community outreach. Before I start asking local BSA people about how we can help, I was hoping that maybe some ROFFers involved with the Boy Scouts can offer suggestions.   I was thinking about maybe a group outing.  Maybe there’s a Boy Scout Camp with some good water on it, or something. Scott

well, I don’t know about good water compared to other areas, but in NJ there’s the Big Flat Brook that goes through Stokes State Forest which has an adjacent Boy Scout Camp. The BFB is known for decent trout FFing. Rob

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Question:

There is a new website for people interested in countryside pursuits, including fly fishing.  Its undfer development and need input from fellow fly fishers.  Why not take a look and add your input http://www.countrysidepursuits.co.uk

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Countryside pursuits is a web site dedicated for countryside pursuits in the UK. Its under development and need of interaction for fellow game shooters.  So why not take a look and add your input to the site. http://www.countrysidepursuits.co.uk

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Question:

I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth. It seems to me that our society equates financial wealth with well-being. And, of course, the two are not the same. IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth. –Steve

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No gacking here, partner.  Well said.  There are even wealthy and happy folks without #4.  Go figure. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

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Steve Zimmerman: IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth. –Steve

Well said, Steve.   I doubt you’ll get many "gacks" — none from me, anyway.  I look at my two daughters and their children and I know I am the wealthiest man on earth.  Of course, fishing where and when I want to doesn’t hurt either. <g Dave LaCourse

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Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

Steve, Sounds like you found Utopia! And I thought it couldn’t be done. Even hardened bastards gotta soften up on this one! Cheers, Rick

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I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth. It seems to me that our society equates financial wealth with well-being. And, of course, the two are not the same. IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

Although you stated that financial wealth and well-being are not the same, you seemed to combine the two in your definition and came up with some ingredients for being happy. However, I agree with your sentiment and it’s part of what I was referring to when I said I considered myself wealthy. In the financial area, I think #1 is a place where many people seem to have trouble. I have friends whose monthly debt payments ie. cars, homes, credit cards etc. are greater than what I earn. Although they make, to me, alot of money, they are living from paycheck to paycheck. Although the idea of feeling financially wealthy is personal and subjective, it seems to me that Americans have gotten some weirdly distorted ideas about what it means to be wealthy if someone in the richest nation in world, who earns in the top 1% of its citizens, doesn’t see himself as wealthy. Willi

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Not just living from paycheck to pay check, but never getting out of their hole, or even digging themselves deeper. As Mr. McCawber put it: Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. In the financial area, I think #1 is a place where many people seem to have trouble. I have friends whose monthly debt payments ie. cars, homes, credit cards etc. are greater than what I earn. Although they make, to me, alot of money, they are living from paycheck to paycheck.

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Nah, they just THINK they’re happy.. No gacking here, partner.  Well said.  There are even wealthy and happy folks without #4.  Go figure. JR IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth.

– -Mark  –  Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio  http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad  mp3 songs:  http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth.

I couldn’t agree with you more.  I’m facing a job loss at the end of the year, potentially forcing me (although I do look forward to it) to be a stay at home dad to my six month old son.  I have the most loving wife and other family around me.  And I have my realatively new found love (1 1/2 years now) of time with my fly rods.  You know, I really cannot expect any more from life at this time.  It is a wonderful realization.  In spite of any ominous things job-wise, I couldn’t ask for a better life. Looking forward to teaching Sparky the ways of fly fishing! Bruce Thomsen

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#5 having a really cool car. Only joking… Well half joking. Wealth is coming home and having your daughter (4) come running yelling "Daddy’s home" and give you a big hug. Having my son(8) blind side me as I walk past the den with my daughter in my arms, although well intentioned, I could do without. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been quite interested in this discussion of wealth. It seems to me that our society equates financial wealth with well-being. And, of course, the two are not the same. IMO, despite what your W-2 or 401(k) statements say, if you (1) spend less than you earn, (2) live in a place you enjoy, (3) are surrounded by people who love you, (4) and have time to fish with regularity then I say that you, sir, are a wealthy man indeed. Gack if you want to, you hardened bastards, but I believe it’s the truth. –Steve

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In my mid twenties, I was frustrated with life.  I was being laid off from my therapy job in the hospital and decided to take control of my own life by becoming wealty.   To make a long story short, I got scammed, lost my ass for 3 years and ended up far worse off then I was.  But I learned one thing that made it all worth it. Money is not freedom….. Time is.  Having time to spend with my wife and kids, fly fish 50+ times a year, go hunting with my buddies and working on my mini-farm are priceless. I think I learned the most important lesson in life and it all it "cost" me was a bad credit record for 10 years, haha.  Seriously, I am so thankful that I figured the real priorities out while my kids are still young.  I spent 4 years as a stay at home dad and now am just returning to school for my Masters degree.  Life is good. Mike

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Question:

GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

 Nicely written/related.  Reading your account makes me yearn for the Canyon.  Hmmmm, wait 17 years, pay $700 plus in fees and risk the no-mercy permit system, or go now, avoid the inane bureaucracy and risk $3000-4000 Happy Boating, Chris Donohue WSU – Pullman, WA "I used up all my sick days, so I’m calling in dead."                                                         – Anonymous

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GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

Great story;  what an adventure!  But, if the following is true: If one is to plan a clandestined run of the Canyon, best to do it during the off-season when not many people are likely to be encountered.  And of course, don’t get caught.  I hear the fine for running the Canyon without a permit is in the $3000-4000 range!!!   WOWWW!

why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? Are there not plenty of open slots off season? — Chris

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GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)

Hummm!!! "Fictitious account"????  Sounds fishy to me.  A few months ago Rocky wants to know from this group how to avoid rangers with radios on the Grand and now this story??!!!?  :-)

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| GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account) | | | Hummm!!! "Fictitious account"????  Sounds fishy to me.  A few months ago | Rocky wants to know from this group how to avoid rangers with radios on | the Grand and now this story??!!!?  :-) He was prob’ly just researchin’ the story just like any other fiction writer would. Of course, perhaps there was _other_ research involved in ensuring the story had dramatic impact and audience appeal with a feeling of truth. Let’s see what other tales Rocky comes up with. SYITP (see you in the pool) Ken

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why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? Are there not plenty of open slots off season? — Chris

Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a cancellation.  They can be had, but it’s getting tougher and tougher to get them.  I don’t think it’s any easier getting cancellations in winter than in other months, because they reserve so few for the off-season anyway. -Rocky

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What would the probablity of success be? ;-

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What would the probablity of success be? ;-

Probability best if you go November or December.  Good if you go January or February, or October.  Next time I hear Joe plans on going in October because there’s no motorized rafts permitted that month and the weather is still pretty warm (highs 80s).   -Rocky

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: why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? : Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a            ^ : cancellation. : -Rocky Ummm, don’t you mean ‘Joe’ called? Steve — Steve Cramer                     Test Scoring & Reporting Services      Sometimes you never can University of Georgia                    always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593                      least expect the most.

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: why not just get a "cancellation permit" and run the river legal? : Actually I tried calling over 40 times last fall and didn’t get a           ^ : cancellation. : -Rocky Ummm, don’t you mean ‘Joe’ called? Steve —

Oh, NO, Rocky didn’t mean "I" as in the first person.  He meant "I" as in an *initial*.  Another initial that Joe uses is "G". Isn’t that right, Rocky? Jackie                                  _                        _   _        _   _                     \                      / /       / /                     \                        "          "                         `                                        ,sSSs,,                         )w/(       ,sSS..)/{)                       <<..       sSSS_v)/                      )<*      sSS[(_]___         o                                                 o                             \     o      o                                              \  o            o                                  `                                                    o           o               o                                                  o GASP! – A forum for Gulf (of Mexico) Area Sea Paddlers http://www.intelenet.net/clubs/gasp/

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GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)      The Grand Canyon is perhaps the finest river trip in the world.  A minimum of 225 miles must be traversed through the canyon to be able to put-in and take-out on roads.  The Colorado runs through the National Park in this area, and a permit is required.  It is a BIG DEAL.  Only approximately 350 private permits are issued per year.  If you put your name on the waiting list last year, you go behind 6000 other permit seekers.  That translates to 6000/350=17 YEARS before you get your permit!!!  Granted, for each permit you can have 20 people and stay in the canyon 14-30 days, but is there a place for the non-wealthy person that wants to go on a shorter trip, alone, or with only one or two others?  Should he/she just wait 17 years for such a permit, and then put to waste all those people spots and extra time that the permit allows?  For some, this is just too outrageous.  Better to become an outlaw and do the run without a permit.      Such was the attitude of one adventure seeker I know ("Joe").   Sometime in December, when a week could be taken off, the trip was planned.  Carefully -mind you.  Timing is critical.  No motorized craft are permitted in the canyon from September 15-December 15.  One doesn’t want a ranger speeding up behind you and catching you.  Such an event happened to me in Canyonlands National Park in 1994 when I was doing a solo trip from Loma to Hite through Cataract Canyon.  It would be nice to be able to locate rangers in the canyon to avoid any contact.  A CB radio was brought along.  At the South Rim, the rangers would not tell Joe what frequency they used.  All he got out of them was "the radios don’t work down in the canyon."  Perhaps they use special frequencies reserved for law enforcement people.  Hence the CB was not taken on the river.  How about put-ins?  Lees Ferry is the normal spot swarming with rangers, though Joe, having never done the Canyon before, didn’t know what the Lees Ferry area looked like.  Instead, he tried to put in 15 miles upstream at Glen Canyon Dam.  Upon arrival at Glen Canyon Dam, he noticed that there was no road down to the river there, and the walls are nearly vertical.  In the Dam visitor center, a kind woman informed Joe that there was a trail down to the river on river left just below the dam, but it was treacherous and takes about a half hour down.  Joe decided that this wasn’t the best idea, so decided to take his chances at Lees Ferry, perhaps launching at night when nobody could see.  Joy entered Joe’s heart when the lady informed him that they were releasing 13000-19000 cfs from the dam.  He had thought there would only be 8000 cfs in the river (as stated on the Colorado Flow Page).   More water = faster travel and funner rapids!      Off to Lees Ferry he went, arriving in the afternoon about 2 pm.   From the highway, a road several miles long leads down to the river at Lees Ferry.  It seemed terribly easy to get down to the river without anybody spotting him.  He settled on a spot by the Paria Riffle, just downstream of the Paria River, by some mobile home type areas, but right next to the water.  There was a nice large parking area and lots of shrubs/trees that the clandestined activitiy of loading the kayak could be accomplished at.  The normal put-in spot could be viewed about a half mile upstream.  The plan was to get everything out/off of the truck (the kayak as quickly as possible, since such a sight is a dead give-away), load up everything into the kayak, then drive back up to the little town of Marble Canyon and find somebody to drive the truck to near the take-out – Las Vegas.  Joe was thinking of finding a party of two or more going to Las Vegas, and having them leave his truck in the Excaliber (or Luxor) parking lot.  Joe would then return to the boat at dusk and launch.  At the takeout (Temple Bar on Lake Mead), he would get a lift into Las Vegas, drive back and pick up the kayak.  Such was the plan.  As he was loading the kayak, a car drove by and then down to the same spot Joe was at.  Very apprehensive at first, Joe hid everything that might give away his planned activity and approached the vehicle.   The Gods were in Joe’s favor!  The vehicle contained three foreigners – an Aussie, an Englishwoman, and an Israeli all in their 20s-early 30s.   Joe asked, "Sightseeing?" and so began a productive conversation.  The three were staying at the hostel in Page and just mosying around seeing whatever there was to see.  Just PERFECT!  Out of Joe’s mouth came the plan to run the river and the need for someone to drive his truck to Las Vegas.  He offered them $40 if they’d do it.  It turns out the Israeli, named Udi, actually was not with the other two, but was just bumming rides from people going around the country.  He had to get to LA in the next couple weeks to fly home.  After about a half hour of thought, Udi agreed to take the truck.  Joe told Udi he’d give him $60 if he went so far as to leave the truck at the take-out (Temple Bar on Lake Mead) instead of Las Vegas, and this he agreed to.  Joe planned 7 more days on the river, and told Udi, "you must have the truck at Temple Bar by dusk eight days from now."    So Joe took off into the wild, still anxious about a ranger spotting him in the first few miles.        Having launched around 3:30 pm the first day, not much distance could be made.  The days are short in December (10 hours of light), so every daylight hour is precious.  Passing the Navajo Bridge after several miles with no signs of rangers, Joe knew he was out of danger.   It grew dark after he had paddled 8 or 9 miles.  Badger Creek rapid was run in twilight.  The next four miles were quite exciting in the dark. Coming up on Soap Creek he noticed a couple lights.  Afraid it might be the law, he avoided contact with the campers, but paddled just past them as the Soap Creek rapid began, pulling over to the side to camp.   Paddling though a rapid such as Soap Creek was not smart in the dark – espially never having seen it before.  Quickly setting up his tent, he settled in for a fine meal of split-pea soup, bread, and cheese (to be had the next two nights as well), with hot chocolate to top it off.   Laying in the sleeping bag, he quickly fell asleep starting to read (around 8 pm).  In the night he heard what sounded like people walking around his tent.  Waking up at 4 am, he continued to read his recently purchased book by JW Powell, "The Exploration of the Colorado and Its Canyons".  In it he read about Powell’s group travelling through Marble Canyon and then reaching the Grand Canyon.  He also brought along "Cadillac Desert" which contained an abundance of information on the politics of water control in the West.        Before the first sign of light, Joe got up and stalked over to where the other campers were.  They must have hiked in, for there was no raft by the river.  And there was only one tent, so not very many people were there.  He wasn’t worried anymore.  He went back and started on a run up Soap Creek Canyon for almost an hour (getting up the canyon probably  2 miles or so before returning).  The water had dropped during the night – he’d be paddling on 13000 cfs today.  Joe went over to meet the camping couple, who were trying their luck at fishing.  He asked if they’d take some video of him going through Soap Creek Rapid, which they obliged him.  He was off at 9 am.   The boat he paddled was an old fiberglass Phoenix, something of a hybrid sea/whitewater kayak – probably about 90 gallons, 14 ft.  It was banged up from other rivers, and had been patched a year ago.  It leaked horribly, the outfitting was falling out (in particular a loose right hip pad), but it was fast.   Luckily Joe brought a sponge and bilge pump, which he had to use every half hour to remove the inch of water that accumulated on the bottom of the kayak.  Such a large boat is not great for playing, but since Joe wasn’t planning on much of that, the Phoenix was an ideal kayak for the journey.  If he had one, a nice sea kayak would have been preferred.   Paddling most of the time he was on the water, very good time was made on the journey.  The second day he made it to Nankoweap (about 42 miles from Soap Creek), passing House Rock Rapid, Stanton’s Cave, and the beautiful Vasey’s Paradise on the way.  Initially he had trouble finding Stanton’s Cave, looking up a gully that was actually just upstream of it.  Giving up after almost an hour of searching, he continued on paddling, only to spot the cave clearly from the river.  It is fenced off inside to help promote the BLACK Bat to roost in there once more.   In the side canyons above Nankoweap several deer were spotted among the mesquite bushes.  Around mile 40 a group of 5-6 rafts was passed (clearly a private party), though no contact was made.  At Nankoweap the guidebook states there is a long rapid (Grand Canyon class 3), but which is really not more than a class one.  Joe tried to camp at side canyons with fun hikes that he would do in the morning, and also ones with driftwood that he could build a small fire for warmth with.  Such was Nankoweap.  Fires are only permitted in the off-season (October through March), and all traces must be removed.  Joe didn’t take out the ashes (very minor amounts), but usually threw them in the river.  Of course Joe did pack out all solid human waste and trash.      The next morning he rose before dawn and started on the run/hike to see the springs a few miles up the canyon, and also the Indian ruins.   The stream here is perennial, with fresh, clear, cold water running down it.  It all originates up at the springs which are a good hike away.   The water seeps out of the ground in several spots up there, and there are many reeds growing around the springs.  Going fast, running much of

… read more »

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    GRAND CANYON TRIP REPORT (a fictitious account)                     <big ol’ snip         realated by Rocky Contos               Thanks for the great story!  Too bad "Joe" is fictictious, sounds like     a hell of a paddler!

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Question:

A non-computerized friend of mine is looking for two rods to purchase- a Sage 4 piece 9 foot 5weight LL and a Sage 4 piece  9 foot 4 weight LL. Please e-mail me and I will contact him.

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A non-computerized friend of mine is looking for two rods to purchase- a Sage 4 piece 9 foot 5weight LL and a Sage 4 piece  9 foot 4 weight LL. Please e-mail me and I will contact him.

Hi I recommend the River’s Edge at 406-586-5373. They have rods as well as blanks. Their blanks a very reasonably priced. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

I’ll be in Seattle area week of 1/6. Any decent steelheading in an hour’s drive? How about a good guide?

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I’ll be in Seattle area week of 1/6. Any decent steelheading in an hour’s drive? How about a good guide?

Great steelhead fishing within an hour of Seattle.  I’d recommend John Feirra (that spelling is wrong and I can’t find his card right now). Call Kauffman’s Fly shop in Seattle or Belluevue.  If John isn’t available they’re be able to line someone up for you. Good luck  (bring lots of clothes) Steve

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   I wouldn’t bother bringing your fishing gear unless you want to fish in some farmers feild. In case you haven’t noticed the Seattle area had a record snowfall in the last week, which is now in the prossess of melting. Creeks and streams have already started flooding, major rivers will probably start going over their banks tomorrow. I don’t expect anything to be fishable for a couple of weeks. — Bob Schmelzle

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  I wouldn’t bother bringing your fishing gear unless you want to fish in some farmers feild. In case you haven’t noticed the Seattle area had a record snowfall in the last week, which is now in the prossess of melting. Creeks and streams have already started flooding, major rivers will probably start going over their banks tomorrow. I don’t expect anything to be fishable for a couple of weeks. — Bob Schmelzle

The sixth is my next day off and I’ll be looking forward to fishing then.  The forcast is for decreasing rain and in the next five days the smaller rivers should drop into nice shape.  Within an hour of Seattle the Stilly comes to mind right off.  I’ll be trying some of the costal streams myself. Steve My Rod and Reel They comfort me.

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Question:

                            FLY FISHING BOOKS                                  FOR THE                                 SPORTSMAN * The American Sportsman Treasury, ‘71, by Knopf.  A collection of Fly Fishing and Hunting stories, with terrific art work and photos.  Chapters on fly fishing for Brown and Rainbow Trout, fly patterns that produce results, bamboo fly rods; and hunting white tail deer, woodcock, water foul, mountain sheep, grouse, etc. All written by famous authors, eg. Charles F. Waterman, Lee Wulff, Leonard M. Wright, Roderick Haig-Brown, William G. Sheldon and many others. An excellent book for the all around sportsman, and a way to reflect on the sporting heritage. * The Treasury of Angling, ‘63 by Koller.  A comprehensive history of angling, and the birth and growth of fly fishing. Chapters on angling in antiquity, early american angling, tackle, flies, entomology, Salmon, Trout, Bass, and other fresh water fish.  Terrific photos and art work.  Learn about the history of fly fishing and game fish, and gain a full sporting knowledge of the art of fly fishing. E-mail me if interested in these books, and I will e-mail cost info. JWTrout/2/11/96

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Question:

Hi Mike,              Try Rick or Wally at On The Fly in Monkton/Hereford.  They can steer  you in the right direction on both salt and freshwater fly fishing. JV

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Capt Brady Bounds 1-800-400-3790 gave an excellent presentation at a recent fly fishing show and is very knowledgable.

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