Question:

In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father.

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

What about the Hobbesian fishermen?  Now, wait, before anyone pooh-poohs this out of hand, hear me out…"This one’s tricky. You have to use imaginary numbers, like eleventeen…" <  G R "…If something is so complicated that you can’t explain it in 10 seconds, then it’s probably not worth knowing anyway…"

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite. Catholics, in particular, REQUIRE you to actively participate in sacraments in order to obtain "grace".  I’m not sure about Lutherans. See: http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/beck_5pt.htm specifically points 2 and 4. Rob

Response:

I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite.

Doesn’t matter. It’s all baloney. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith.

Actually, the deeds are supposed to be one of the manifestations of faith. A high "value" is placed on deeds in Calvinist doctrine but deeds are not required for the attainment of salvation.  The part that rankles about the quote is that grace refers to a gift that is freely given.  Not something that can come by art, whatever art is. Mu

Response:

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith.

As I understand it, Calvin taught that one’s eternal fate was determined BEFORE his birth.  The "Elect" had been chosen by God to spend eternity with Him in heaven.  The rest would perish. No one could change is fate in any way. vince norris

Response:

Rob, It is Grace alone for Lutherans. Crusty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it. I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite. Catholics, in particular, REQUIRE you to actively participate in sacraments in order to obtain "grace".  I’m not sure about Lutherans. See: http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/beck_5pt.htm specifically points 2 and 4. Rob

Response:

In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father.

Before I read farther about the father, what do you think the quote should have been? This, I find interesting Mu.  What is ‘the why of it?’ George Gehrke

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

—  Hum? gg

Response:

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. Actually, the deeds are supposed to be one of the manifestations of faith. A high "value" is placed on deeds in Calvinist doctrine but deeds are not required for the attainment of salvation.  The part that rankles about the quote is that grace refers to a gift that is freely given.  Not something that can come by art, whatever art is. Mu

Now I have a handle on what rankles you Mu. The Metronome, casting to a three count beat is where the beginning of his thoughts are rooted from.  The explaination is simple if one has the insight to the father who the two son’s learned much from. Practice, makes perfect. George Gehrke "and for me, this explains fly fishing rather well" Three words, the same as the ticking Metronome. And for the record, I include Grace, for study and review. grace (gr

Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

Response:

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

Response:

I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

Response:

I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

Response:

1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

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Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

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Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

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Question:

Well, it’s homecoming weekend here in Happy Valley, and those Fightin’ Illini are coming to town to see if they can’t treat the Nittany Lions the same way they did the Iowa Hawkeyes last weekend.  God, I hope not. For all the talk a few weeks ago regarding this game, a potential Autumn mini-clave here in central PA, and a few flames about OT posts– there are no plans for any fishing to actually taking place.  This is really too bad, because the weather is going to be perfect.  Not too cold, the leaves are past their prime but still beautiful, and the days are still reasonably long.  However, I have no idea how to catch trout on a fly in this weather… Ken, I tried and tried to find tickets between the 20s but to no avail.  I would really have enjoyed meeting and doing some Sunday fishing with you.  As luck would have it, none of the half-dozen folks who I *know* have tickets were willing to part with them or had already given them to somebody else–it is homecoming after all, even if the Nittany Lions are having a down year.  Ironically, my Aunt called my wife from work just this afternoon with an offer of two tickets to tomorrows game…  I have no idea if they are between the 20s, or even within sight of the field–hell, with a capacity of nearly 100,000 the term ‘nosebleed seats’ takes on some signifigance at Beaver Stadium. I believe that there are still plans being made for a spring clave on Penns Creek here in central PA.  I look forward to meeting you, Ken, and lots of other ROFFians then.  Too bad it won’t be football season. We Are Penn State! Tom Before you buy.

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Well, it’s homecoming weekend here in Happy Valley, and those Fightin’ Illini are coming to town …

I’ll be watchin’ the game on ESPN2, your Nittany Lions are 3 point favorites according the official ROFF Latest Line and once again Wayno has managed to wheedle an unreal point spread for his Tar Heels. Eighteen and one half friggin’ points he gets against Clemson, it’s a gawdamn Chardonnay conspiracy I tell ya. I believe that there are still plans being made for a spring clave on Penns Creek here in central PA.  I look forward to meeting you, Ken, and lots of other ROFFians then.  Too bad it won’t be football season. We Are Penn State!

Likewise, Tom. Enjoy your weekend and don’t let a little thing like a homecoming loss spoil your fun. Oskee Wow Wow ! — Ken Fortenberry- sluggin’ Bud and hatin’ 11 a.m. kickoffs

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Question:

Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

Response:

shin real hard on the hitch receiver and jump around. Steve

Sorry, that was Bill Dance, "dancin" around the end of his truck. — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

"Nick C"

asks: Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

I like Plano.  You can get them in sizes big enough to carry the contents of a one bedroom apartment. But, I do like two or three smaller boxes.  I fish for different species of fish, and bringing along a ton of bass stuff to fish for trout is just too much.  Now, I may keep the bass box in the car or RV, just in case, but hauling everything you own to go catch a few bluegills doesn’t work for me. I even like the little ones about as big as two packs of cigs to carry when I go for a short hike.  Big enough to carry some extra hooks, sinkers, lures, flies, etc, and go in a pocket. But I do like Plano, and for a couple of bucks, send in the deal and get your name on a real brass plate for the top.  Makes you look like Like Roland Martin.  And to really look like Roland, bang your shin real hard on the hitch receiver and jump around. Steve Illigitimi non carborundum.

Response:

"Steve Huber"

Sorry, that was Bill Dance, "dancin" around the end of his truck.

I’ll bet that Roland has done it at least once.  Maybe not on camera. Steve Illigitimi non carborundum.

Response:

Hi, Can anybody recommend a good quality, sturdy tackle box. It needs to be large as I have a big collection of lures and trolling paraphernalia. At the moment I end up dragging two or three smaller boxes around with me. Many thanks, Nick

This doesnt relate much to what youre talking about, but If you take advice from the guys on TV and have like 5 small boxes for each kind of fish, you will end up going fishing and sure enough there will be people catching 20lb cats all around you when you only have your bass equipment with you.  or you take a bunch of topwater stuff and the bass are biting on the bottom……man that pisses me off so buy a big box, be ready for anything…..I even carry in my little firebird 4 different fishing poles….a fly rod & reel, a spinning reel w/ rod, a baitcasting reel w/ rod, and a bug surfrod with a huge spinning reel just in case the huge carp happen to be biting.

Response:

so buy a big box, be ready for anything…..I even carry in my little firebird 4 different fishing poles….a fly rod & reel, a spinning reel w/ rod, a baitcasting reel w/ rod, and a bug surfrod

One of those shopping carts works good to haul all the stuff. Be sure to remove the market’s name. Steve  ;-) Illigitimi non carborundum.

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Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

Response:

Let’s see tackle boxes … you got Kevin Van Dam on TV with a tractor-trailer load of tackle, you got Mark Sosin on TV with little Plano tackle boxes for all occasions …. sometimes a dozen boxes for some occasions, you got foot locker-sized, cig-pack-sized,  you got worm boxes, leader boxes, fresh … salt …. fly …. surf … spinning …. bait casting … I secretly suspect your question was designed to stir up this bunch of smelly ol’ anglers … and hook em good … Mission accomplished. Unless of course, you work for Plano, Flambeau or any of the other tackle box makers. By the way, I’ve been fishing for 44 years, and I only have a dozen tackle boxes … not counting the little ones.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

Response:

Let’s see tackle boxes … you got Kevin Van Dam on TV with a tractor-trailer load of tackle, you got Mark Sosin on TV with little Plano tackle boxes for all occasions …. sometimes a dozen boxes for some occasions, you got foot locker-sized, cig-pack-sized,  you got worm boxes, leader boxes, fresh … salt …. fly …. surf … spinning …. bait casting … I secretly suspect your question was designed to stir up this bunch of smelly ol’ anglers … and hook em good … Mission accomplished. Unless of course, you work for Plano, Flambeau or any of the other tackle box makers. By the way, I’ve been fishing for 44 years, and I only have a dozen tackle boxes … not counting the little ones.

I mostly freshwater fish, so I have two tackle boxes, one for fresh and a smaller one for salt. When I get too much freshwater gear and outgrow my box, I transfer all my saltwater stuff into it and give the smallest one to Goodwill. I’ve gone through about 4, and my freshwater box is now at the largest size Plano you can get without having dual side opening trays. I think I’m going to be keeping my current one for awhile Cant remember the brand..but i saw one at wal-mart ,pretty big with removable clear boxes you could fit in a pocket for hiking,quick trip etc..

Mega Man fans visit alt.games.megaman Quint’s page of Rockman manga scans: http://www.crosswinds.net/~sakugarne

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Question:

Mike Connor: <<Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? It ain’t your imagination, Mike.  I have let me feud with George Gehrke bleed onto these pages and for that I am sorry.  My apologies to you and to all of ROFFdom. Dave LaCourse

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My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve

You’re right Mike, lifes too fricking short and time astream is not enough…. So I’ll start…. George, I’ll say this for you positively , you’ve got balls and I admire that quality in you. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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I’m up for it Mike. Tim Apple — "Bamboo is Better"

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I like this idea! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would make an alternative proposal: That each and every single one of us just shuts up and goes fishing for a few days. That’s right.. starting, say Wednesday night (Greenwich time, minus five hours) nobody posts to ROFF until they’ve spent at least two consecutive days fishing.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? You know, one of the main reasons I am more or less hopelessly addicted to this place, is that it removes me from my not inconsiderable everyday problems and worries, much as fishing itself does, although in a different way.  I feel I know many of you, far more intimately than one might imagine, given the intrinsic limitations. This is a very strange medium, and I wonder what exciting new aspects of humanity will arise from it. Hopefully not just negative ones. At the moment the medium is restricted to those with the wherewithal and intelligence to participate, this is however increasing daily, and will hopefully result in considerably improved communications on a wide scale.  It seems almost sacrilegious to waste such an opportunity with petty personal feuds. When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason. Distance and lack of personal knowledge are not sufficient to explain this. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants. My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve ? I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ? Give it some thought. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

What keeps me coming back as a newbie is I’m addicted to flyfishing and this is my fishing when I can’t be on the water (which is most of the time .) I love this sport and I enjoy reading this ng. I’ve learned quite a bit in the short time that I’ve been here and I hope to learn a hell of a lot more. I plan on being here for a long time. I’ve also really enjoyed your stories too Mike, I actually sit down here and wonder what you’ve written this time. Thanks and keep up the great stories. Tight lines, Darin

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Thanks Darin, my pleasure, glad you enjoy them. TL MC

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I think if you re-sort the list by sender (or by thread, for that matter) you’ll see the vocal "WE" are small in number and the frequent posters are repetitive in nature, especially on certain subjects. I attempt to limit myself to the threads of genuine interest to me, reviewing the new posts by: 1) Topic 2) Sender 3) Lines and then determine what I really want to read…after reading those, I then choose "MARK ALL READ" and go away until some later time. What keeps me here?  About 3% of the posts….. Larry #:)# Enjoy the eclipse, those of you that get to see it live….for us on the West Coast of the US, it’s on www.exploratorium.edu beginning at 3am PST. Hey Mike….do you get TWO evening hatches today????  =8^0

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Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? You know, one of the main reasons I am more or less hopelessly addicted to this place, is that it removes me from my not inconsiderable everyday problems and worries, much as fishing itself does, although in a different way.  I feel I know many of you, far more intimately than one might imagine, given the intrinsic limitations. This is a very strange medium, and I wonder what exciting new aspects of humanity will arise from it. Hopefully not just negative ones. At the moment the medium is restricted to those with the wherewithal and intelligence to participate, this is however increasing daily, and will hopefully result in considerably improved communications on a wide scale.  It seems almost sacrilegious to waste such an opportunity with petty personal feuds. When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason. Distance and lack of personal knowledge are not sufficient to explain this. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants. My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve ? I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ? Give it some thought. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason.

I don’t know about how things have been where you are, but for the last few weeks it’s been unbearably hot in parts of the US. Hot weather for long stretches tends to shorten tempers, I’ve noticed. It might also be that you’re normally a peacemaker type and thus more likely to notice such things. It could be multiple threads going on about topics that are controversial here, such as C&R or dam breeching, or unpleasant ones such as the guy who won’t shut up about the Hardy reel on ebay. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants.

I’m game. Of course, I’m going to be offline for a few weeks with dreams of wetting a line in the St. Joseph river than the Florida Intracoastal Waterway, so it won’t be hard for me to refrain from online rudeness. I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ?

I can think of a couple of reasons. For one thing, we’ve a swarm of curmudgeonly bastards here. Old-fashioned gentlemen, and young folks who aspire to be old curmudgeonly bastards someday. In crowds like that, a certain amount of shit-slinging is practically background noise in that you notice it only when it stops. The reason why several of us have Golden Retrievers is that few of us are like them. Not to mention, we do have that common interest: fishing. Fishing is pretty fundamental, and helps to moderate the worst of the virtual carnage. At any rate, I don’t see ROFF becoming a love-in. If nothing else, I would dearly like to not see any single one of you naked. I’m sorry, but my tastes are limited to women within four years of my ripe old practically senile 23. I doubt that any of you qualify. I would make an alternative proposal: That each and every single one of us just shuts up and goes fishing for a few days. That’s right.. starting, say Wednesday night (Greenwich time, minus five hours) nobody posts to ROFF until they’ve spent at least two consecutive days fishing. Look at it this way: We’re all either abrasive old bastards or abrasive young bastards. How do you thing George picked the name for his fly rod project? You can’t stuff twenty of them into one newsgroup without at least a little friction. And yet, when you got a bunch of them into the same room, what did they do? They drank, laughed, went fishing, and drank some more. And if we ever decide to have one in the midwest or the Rockies (or I can figure out travel to NC), I’d be there in a heartbeat. Even after having friction with some of the other people likely to be there, what’s the worst that could happen? That I’d have to drink with fellow fishermen? Please don’t throw this here po’ b’rer rabbit inta that mean ol’ briar patch! —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBN7E52ckBcsCVVLK5AQFlxwQAib10NUq3IcFIDOofXN3xhP77O63ihWXB LBNuADgWBCyJboFoY6/yzLwmRA+g8IOlPPeW5UGIzxJGmD3ebHiE47+oGNrtdLtN v4v2E1ouzd6Fkf4ybdLtam9J2bmll7iit8ylAChDfQ2wmEN6KWdAyUc4I+oJ44KS QSaCeykGu8Q= =QnA3 —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– God invented beer and fishing so that 20-something Kansas Jayhawkers wouldn’t take over the world -me

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my partner and i are planning a trip to missoula this summer to see an old friend. unfortunately, he doesn’t fish, so there’s no immediate info on runnoff, snowpack, etc. we’re two wisconsin steelhead anglers who’ve soured on the notion of stampede fishing. we’d like to come to montana to escape the crowds. what’s that mean? we’re looking for a bit of info on runoff so we can avoid the crowds while still hitting a few nice dry-fly days. and we’re not necessarily looking for that "true" montana big water experience either. just a good trip, some challenges but more relaxing and just a general time to ease out. in our minds, brook trout caught in uncrowded waters are sometimes bigger than a brown in a crowd. hope this provides some info on what sort of trip we’re looking for a small glimpse on the sort of guys we are. *as a note, we’re interested in a few guided days, so any guides are encouraged to respond by email. thanks, jason

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my partner and i are planning a trip to missoula

I’m not sure what exactly you’re looking for, or when you’re trip is planned.  I live outside Missoula.  I can tell you we have about average snowpack this year, so we’ll probably have an average run-off, which means forget all of May and most of June.  The last week or two of June might be all right.  But when run-off is running off, everything’s pretty blown out.  The nice thing is, different rivers go at different times.  Often Rock Creek will blow and clear while the Clark Fork is blowing.  The Blackfoot is usually a little later than the others.  That said, of course, depnding on how everything comes off, you could catch an amazing days or two on Rock Creek with the salmonfly hatch.  You’ll want a guide for that, and for my money the best guides are out of the Kingfisher fly shop, which I don’t have a phone number for, but they’re in information and they’re right off the interstate, first Missoula exit if you’re coming from the east.  Those guys hands down, no question, beyond a doubt have the best guides in town. From the last week in June through July and August you should have excellent fishing.  I would suggest hitting some of the Idaho panhandle streams (which I don’t want to post the names of, but ask around when you get here).  I’d also try the North Fork of the Blackfoot, way, way up, hike-in style, just because it’s a fantastic experience, and also often full of cutts and sometimes bull trout (which are endangered species so catching them is a no-no).  Upper upper Rock Creek can be nice, but the problem there is going to be crowds.  The Bitterroot is, well, see this month’s Fly Rod & Reel magazine.  The Clark Fork above Rock Creek is a waste of time, but from Rock Creek down all the way to St. Regis there’s very good water.  You’re going to find most of your fish up against the banks.  Depending on the time ofyear you’re here you could catch golden stonefly hatches, pmd hatches, really steady evening caddis blizzards, among other things (baetis, etc).    Missoula has very good fishing, very close, but it’s often overlooked for the more famous fisheries over by Bozeman.  I think you should hang around the Kingfisher, and call me if you want.  You should be in for some real treats.

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Anyway, my default setting is to fish with a sink tip line, casting towards shore with a wolly bugger, sometimes a gold ribbed hair’s ear [though I've yet to catch anything with this].  Both are hauled in with a slow steady retrieve.  

You might be better off casting parallel to the bank if the bottom drops off fairly quick (and *especially* if there are rushes sticking out of the water.)  You’ll cover more water that way and you’ll be better able to keep your fly down near the bottom.  If you’re casting in towards the bank with a sink-tip, your fly will swim away from the bottom unless you pause or retrieve slower as you fish the cast out.  Personally, I think full uniform sinkers are a lot more useful for fishing wet flies, unless you want the fly to swim up pretty quick (i.e., up a drop-off.) Also, try varying your retrieve.  That’s always the first thing I change if I’m searching and nothing’s going on.  Besides, I always have better bugger luck if I fish them with at least a little snap to get the hackle pulsing. As for flies, one of my best lake patterns is just a small marabou leech, fished right off the bottom and kind of slow.  Keep your eyes out for the local bug life, though, and fish the ones that interest you. Good luck, Dave DeLacey Corvallis,Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aaron W.

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Any other ideas?  Flys?  I am fishing in Southwest Washington, and possibly will go near Mt. St. Hellens.

        Though we don’t see a lot of tubers here in Maine(other than potatos – yuk,yuk), we do a lot of pond and lake fishing for brook trout from canoes. Common to almost all of these ponds are Callibaetis (hatch 3 times a season and matched with Adams dry) and damselflies, both of which may be indigenous to your waters. Also present here are Hexigenia, stoneflies similar to Acroneuria, generic BWO’s, and some giant caddis species.  We have a lot of other  options as well(leeches, flying ants, scuds, cress bugs, sow bugs,etc.). I fish a pond that stays cool enough for dry flies all summer and I never fish much deeper than 8 or 10 feet, and then only because I have to.         Techniques run the gamut. 90% of my fishing is done with a floating or intermediate line.Checking with local fisherman (and observing), doing a stomach check on fish kept (yes, we will eat one now and then), using a nymph net to check for samples, are all integral to fitting the pieces of the puzzle. We give a close watch to dropoffs (potential byways for big fish) and the weedbeds (home to most of the insects.I’m sure your water may have some differences, but there may be more similarities than anyone realizes. Hope I’ve given you some ideas. Good luck….

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would love to hear some advice about float tube fly fishing for trout.  I have read my share of books, had fair experience, but am still not that satisfied with the results I get.  Still love it though. Anyway, my default setting is to fish with a sink tip line, casting towards shore with a wolly bugger, sometimes a gold ribbed hair’s ear [though I've yet to catch anything with this].  Both are hauled in with a slow steady retrieve. Any other ideas?  Flys?  I am fishing in Southwest Washington, and possibly will go near Mt. St. Hellens. Thank you. Aaron W.

A really good lake is Coldwater Lake, near St Helens.  People do well with various things; it would be hard to go wrong with a small black or olive wooly bugger (size 10 to 14).  I use a full sinking shooting head, in type II or IV, for most of my lake fishing in the area.  Try different retrieves, try waiting different times to let the line sink to different depths, try points and dropoffs, try fishing where the codger factor is high.   Oh, you don’t know what the codger factor is?  That’s the average age of the fisherfolk within a 100 yd radius.  Anything over 50 is a good bet. A fly that does well for me in the cascade lakes in the spring is an olive brown wooly worm, with brown hackle, in size 8 or 10,  Matter of fact, that or the wooly bugger will be on the sinking line just about any time I can’t see something else in particular to match.   Caught 10 feet of cutthroats with the wooly bugger yesterday, in 8 to 10 inch increments.  Beautiful day, beautiful fish, and a great way to start the season.

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I would love to hear some advice about float tube fly fishing for trout.  I have read my share of books, had fair experience, but am still not that satisfied with the results I get.  Still love it though. Anyway, my default setting is to fish with a sink tip line, casting towards shore with a wolly bugger, sometimes a gold ribbed hair’s ear [though I've yet to catch anything with this].  Both are hauled in with a slow steady retrieve.   Any other ideas?  Flys?  I am fishing in Southwest Washington, and possibly will go near Mt. St. Hellens. Thank you. Aaron W.

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Anyway, my default setting is to fish with a sink tip line, casting towards shore with a wolly bugger, sometimes a gold ribbed hair’s ear [though I've yet to catch anything with this].  Both are hauled in with a slow steady retrieve. Any other ideas?  Flys?  I am fishing in Southwest Washington, and possibly will go near Mt. St. Hellens.

I have never had much luck with sunk flies on sinking lines.  I usually cast toward shore to rocks, logs and grassy cuts with a small elk hair caddis or stimulator. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Does anyone have any idea how the fishing on this river is. We will be in the area and want to find out what species of fish are in it. Thanks in advance, bruce

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Does anyone have any idea how the fishing on this river is. We will be in the area and want to find out what species of fish are in it. Thanks in advance, bruce

Bruce, I don’t know about the Blackwater River in Virginia.  There is some good fly fishing "near" the Blackwater River in West Virginia.  If that is where you are going, then E-mail me. Doug Milam

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Does anyone have any idea how the fishing on this river is. We will be in the area and want to find out what species of fish are in it. Thanks in advance, bruce Bruce, I don’t know about the Blackwater River in Virginia.  There is some good fly fishing "near" the Blackwater River in West Virginia.  If that is where you are going, then E-mail me.

That isn’t where I’m going but I will be in Charlottesville, VA next week and actually will have time to fish one or two days.  Someone mentioned the Rapidan about a week ago.  How’s it looking now?  Any other places I might try? John Fereira

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Lake Fly Fishing Instructional HTML The first in a series of HTML Instructional Pages is now ready for your viewing. These are in depth segments from the Canadian Waters School of Fly Fishing Manual. They pertain mostly to Lake Fly Fishing and the forage involved and deal mainly with the Prairie/ high prairie regions but the information is valuable anywhere. One segment is available each month and this months features Mayflies. There is no password required and no charges for viewing. This is for public information and education. Look off : http:\www.articfire.com/arcfire/fishing.htm Locate the Lake Fly Fishing Instructional Pages by Bob Sheedy, the author of the manual. Many other informative articles, software and fly patterns available as well.

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= Lake Fly Fishing Instructional HTML =

This URL is needs correcting: Look off : http:\www.articfire.com/arcfire/fishing.htm =

Try http://www.articfire.com/arcfire/fishing.htm Locate the Lake Fly Fishing Instructional Pages by Bob Sheedy, the author=

 of — = =9F Len =9F —– Leonard Campbell                                                                                                =

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Please send me your free catalog: Mark Cattalani 86 Verndale St. Brookline, MA 02146

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I work for a publishing company that specializes in fishing books. We have a free full color catalog with over 200 fishing related titles. Our main focus is in fly fishing and fly tying. To order a free catalog: e-mail me;         -or- write; Frank Amato Publications P.O. Box 82112 Portland, OR  97282         -or- call; 1-800-541-9498                                 Tight Lines,                                 Jeff Findley                                 Frank Amato Publications

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I work for a publishing company that specializes in fishing books. We have a free full color catalog with over 200 fishing related titles. Our main focus is in fly fishing and fly tying. To order a free catalog: e-mail me;    -or- write; Frank Amato Publications P.O. Box 82112 Portland, OR  97282    -or- call; 1-800-541-9498                            Tight Lines,                            Jeff Findley                            Frank Amato Publications

Great idea!  Thanks for posting this – these are the people who published the Curtis Creek Manifesto, among many others, and therefore deserve our undying gratitude! Tim

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I work for a publishing company that specializes in fishing books. We have a free full color catalog with over 200 fishing related titles. Our main focus is in fly fishing and fly tying. To order a free catalog: e-mail me;    -or- write; Frank Amato Publications P.O. Box 82112 Portland, OR  97282    -or- call; 1-800-541-9498                            Tight Lines,                            Jeff Findley                            Frank Amato Publications

Please send your free catalogue to: Nelson Bussey Woodstock, White Bay, Newfoundland, Canada AOK 5XO

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I work for a publishing company that specializes in fishing books. We have a free full color catalog with over 200 fishing related titles. Our main focus is in fly fishing and fly tying. To order a free catalog: e-mail me;        -or- write; Frank Amato Publications P.O. Box 82112 Portland, OR  97282        -or- call; 1-800-541-9498 Please send your free catalogue to: Nelson Bussey

NO NO NO! Let’s not start one of these friggin’ ME TOOS strings. a FOLLOWUP is NOT ONE OF THEM… Send email, snail mail, or call them, but DON’T REPLY TO HIM HERE! We thank you for your support ;^) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I work for a publishing company that specializes in fishing books. We have a free full color catalog with over 200 fishing related titles. Our main focus is in fly fishing and fly tying. To order a free catalog: e-mail me;        -or- write; Frank Amato Publications P.O. Box 82112 Portland, OR  97282        -or- call; 1-800-541-9498                                Tight Lines,                                Jeff Findley                                Frank Amato Publications Please send your free catalogue to: Nelson Bussey Woodstock, White Bay, Newfoundland, Canada AOK 5XO

If this is available can you please send me a catalogue To: GHERI CELIN CONCORDIA UNIVERSITY 1455 DE MAISONNEUVE (west) SUITE LB-203 MONTR