Question:

I’ve heard that big nocturnal browns hit mouse patterns like crazy. I’d love to try that sometime. From the waters I’ve fished, the Beaverhead looks like a good bet for that action. How do you fish a mouse? I suppose you give it a LOT of action. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

I have had a lot of success with big surface lures at night. The target was invariably sea-trout, ( anadromous browns), but a lot of native big browns get caught like this. These fish are hardly ever caught otherwise, and many do not even know of their existence. One excellent pattern is a large black muddler minnow, tied on a tube.  You don

Question:

You want to explain this one. When did  O’Meara let Tiger’s friendship start dictating his tournament schedule? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – O’Meara respects his good friend Tiger way too much to show up at Hilton Head this week.

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You missed all those NAACP folks picketing outside the Worldcom? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You want to explain this one. When did  O’Meara let Tiger’s friendship start dictating his tournament schedule?

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O’Meara respects his good friend Tiger way too much to show up at Hilton Head this week. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I happened to be in line behind Mark O’Meara and 2 of his fishing friends this morning at the coffee and bagel store this morning. They were ready to head out and do some fly fishing.  Don’t know about their mental state, though.  Who would want to go wading in a freezing river in 30 degree weather with snow showers when you could be in warm and sunny Hilton Head! He has a place up here in Park City, UT. I’ve seen him around town every now and again. Kitty

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I happened to be in line behind Mark O’Meara and 2 of his fishing friends this morning at the coffee and bagel store this morning. They were ready to head out and do some fly fishing.  Don’t know about their mental state, though.  Who would want to go wading in a freezing river in 30 degree weather with snow showers when you could be in warm and sunny Hilton Head! He has a place up here in Park City, UT. I’ve seen him around town every now and again. Kitty

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Actually, my son got me up in Montana once and the trout were rising throughout the snow showers.  After the first bite, I didn’t notice the weather at all.  Heck, you are standing in 34 degree water all day anyhow! — regards,  RichG .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I happened to be in line behind Mark O’Meara and 2 of his fishing friends this morning at the coffee and bagel store this morning. They were ready to head out and do some fly fishing.  Don’t know about their mental state, though.  Who would want to go wading in a freezing river in 30 degree weather with snow showers when you could be in warm and sunny Hilton Head! He has a place up here in Park City, UT. I’ve seen him around town every now and again. Kitty

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Question:

Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it".

Excellent point. Right now I’m leaning to getting the horses. It all depends on how my stock options pan out. Money can turn what otherwise would be a terrible idea into an excellent idea.

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<equine opine snipped PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

Spoken like a true Montanan. Welcome, Warren. — Ken Fortenberry

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Vaccinations twice a year are a good idea, and if you have the money (it sounds like you do), vet checks are a good idea. Have the vets come out and worm/vaccinate twice a year, and they’ll spot something early that you might not, especially as a beginner.

And DON’T forget to get a vet check BEFORE you buy a horse.  It can save you a ton of money in the long run.   Vaccinations are a good idea, but not necessary unless the horses are going to come into contact with tons of other horses.  I guess the main reason we don’t is that we have too many and it is easier to treat on an as needed basis. However, for two, better to be safe than sorry is a good philosophy.  It really isn’t that expensive to do it yourself. The key is keeping the vet away unless necessary.  So the more you learn and are able to do, the less reliance you will have on a vet to come out and give shots/worm. Worming is easy, just a tube that shoots out measured amounts of a paste based upon the body weight (you actually set the tube with the weight and it premeasures sort of).  Just have to make sure to get it way back in the mouth so they don’t spit it out. Most stuff is fairly easy and you will pick it up as you go.  It kind of helps you bond with the animal and the animal with you.  I can’t put into words how important the relationship is between a horse and a rider, but it involves lots of trust and patience.  It will eventually turn into a bond that will hopefully last a lifetime. I would also suggest that maybe you start taking riding lessons before you buy horses.  The instructor will be able to teach you many things about horse care and horsemanship that will be invaluable down the road. Warren

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I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses.

Llamas are out of the question. For one thing I need an animal to carry ME for one or two days, not 120 lbs of gear. For another thing, I’d be laughed out of Custer County.

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck.

ATVs aren’t allowed most places I want to go. They don’t even allow mountain bikes. Also, I’m not looking at this as a purely economic deal. I like horses and I like riding them. I’m mainly concerned about the learning curve because I’ve never kept them before.

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Get the horses.  As a matter of fact buy some of my inlaws horses.  I already crash tested one. Seriously, horses are great for hunting and fishing trips.  You won’t need to ship them out to CA for the winter either.  We have over 40 head and keep them outside all winter long up here in Montana. As to feeding. That depends on how much room you have there.  You might get by with grazing them off the pasture if it is big enough and then feeding them hay in the winter.  Hay isn’t all that expensive really.  A horse needs about 2% of its body weight of feed a day.  A 1200 lb horse comes out to a wopping 24 pounds of hay.  Don’t know what the hay prices down there are, but up here it is about $60/ton of good alfalfa. As far as routine medications, just wormer once a year.  Maybe twice a year to be safe.  Want to be even safer?  Worm them or have them wormed before you bring them home.  Shouldn’t have to see a vet at all.  With 40 head we have had the vet out twice this year.  Both horses got caught in a fence.  One while rolling on the ground and got collicky because it was in the fence for several hours overnight and twisted (bad for horses intestines).  The other we think was kicking at a dog and got its legged stuck in a coral panel.  That one was pretty nasty. Try to find a book on horse care and read it for yourself and decide how much hassle it will be for you. Cost wise they are not too bad.  The big pain is in the beginning.  You can find a younger (5-10 year old horse) that is well broke for around $1,500. Then saddles and the other tack, well that depends on new or used.  Make sure you actually sit in the saddle before you buy one.  Ideally you want to sit in it on the horse to get a good feel for it.  Usually can’t though so just make sure you butt isn’t too big (or small).  You won’t need a fancy roping saddle or anything so used you can probably pick one up for about $400-500.  Shop around!  Read the classifieds, check out feed stores (sometimes they have bullentin boards with horses and tack for sale). Being on the high side, look to spend about $6,000 for 2 horses and tack and another $600 or so a year on hay. There are several things you can to do in taking care of horses to make them less at risk for disease, injury, and sickness so arm yourself with knowledge and make the decision afterwards. Happy Trails and Tight Lines. Warren PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

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The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses.

I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses. — Ken Fortenberry

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Sounds like a great idea to me. If you have the time and possibilities, and can afford it, do it, but check the prices at those stables etc first, you may be very unpleasantly surprised, also horses involve a lot of care and work, far more than one imagines. Trailering them is also a pain, for you and for the horses. Mountain bikes can be thrown in the cabin or garage when you are done with them, don’t eat, don’t crap, and don’t get ill apart from an occasional broken chain etc. They cost much less than horses, they are less likely to get stolen, or run away, they are not edible to any great degree, and can not be turned into sausage meat, they do not wear extremely costly handmade steel shoes which require frequent replacement,  do not require horrendously expensive injections and medications at regular intervals, and they also require no looking after when you are absent. They do not engender quite as much enthusiasm on the part of dutiful daughters ( dutiful at least until the first ton of horse manure has to be shovelled out of somewhere ! ) I know a couple of the aforementioned daughters ! Their parents own quite a few horses. Quite amazing how often they have "urgent appointments" when the novelty has worn off, and the animals have to be groomed or cleaned out etc etc. If your daughter wants to ride, rent a horse for her for a while until you are certain she will keep it up and it is worth it. I know all this because I help out ( which usually means I shovel horse shit ! ) for the chance of an occasional ride on one of my friends horses. Not trying to dissuade you in any way, just playing advocatus diaboli. Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it". TL MC

Response:

The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

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Question:

Has anyone any experience flyfishing in Puerto Penasco(Rocky Point), Sonora?  Is it worth a trip from Phoenix? Thanks. Mike Jarvis

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Not much personal experience I do know the Desert Flycasters usually take a trip once a year to fish sea trout in the estuaries.  Usually in Nov, / Dec.  I believe any sardine / anchovy type streamer should work. My experience was with spinning using small spoons.  I caught a variety of fish, some I couldn’t identify. I have heard of some brave hearted fellows flyfishing off pelican point in float tubes for trigger fish.  Don’t get caught in the current – could be a long swim to shore. — William Endicott – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone any experience flyfishing in Puerto Penasco(Rocky Point), Sonora?  Is it worth a trip from Phoenix? Thanks. Mike Jarvis

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Question:

Folks, I am heading into the bob marshall wilderness aug 20.  i will be flying to great falls.  Does anyone know of a decent fly shop in town where I could check  in, get some last minute flies, license, and related? Thanks for any help. edwin college station, tx

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Folks, I am heading into the bob marshall wilderness aug 20.  i will be flying to great falls.  Does anyone know of a decent fly shop in town where I could check  in, get some last minute flies, license, and related? Thanks for any help. edwin college station, tx

Call Wolverton’s Fly Shop.  He’s in the book.  Boyd Wolverton is a great guy and will take good care of you.  He and his brother were born and raised in the area and should be able to set you up with anything you need.  I have been fishing with them for years.   Bud Crist Diamond C Kennel Blum, TX Http://www.birddogs.pair.com

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Question:

: Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The : only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get : and where we’ll build the whore house. I also want to know where Wayne will park his truck to begin the bean-fest. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The : only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get : and where we’ll build the whore house. I also want to know where Wayne will park his truck to begin the bean-fest.

Upwind of the beavers…that’ll drive ‘em out. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Hi Sandy-    Lets say some Californian just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in SW Montana. . . and immediately wanted to sub divide it, build a sprawling ranchette and get rid of the vermin. You need to kill the beavers quick because they’re flooding the road and you just washed your Orvis endorsed vehicle and don’t really want to drive on a wet road. And, hear this, it gets even worse: they’re eating willows. Can’t they eat dog food or bird seed or something?    To answer your question: grenades work well. Pull the pin, count to sixty real slow then throw it at one of those damn beavers.    -Ralph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

Ralph and Lisa Cutter. California School of Flyfishing http:www/flyline.com

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: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale : in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, : You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on : the third. I think with three houses, and probably fences, it’s no longer going to be the prettiest 100 acres in SW MT, beavers or no. That said, I’m kinda ambivalent about the beaver thing; I can see why one sides complains about our manipulation of nature, and I can see why someone would want to get rid of the ones on their property. So,… I would think letting a trapper come in would be the best, or is the fur market non-existant these days?  A beaver pelt used to be fairly valuable, I hope in this hypothetical example those three pelts weren’t tossed… Jon Cook.

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writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

Obviously Sandy hasn’t had to deal with the little "construction freaks".  Contact your local Fish and Game and they will put you in touch with a local or state trapper to remedy your problems.   It takes time and should be done in the Winter months as to not waste the hides.  They can be a real problem if you let them get a good hold on your drainage.  Good luck   Ace in Alaska

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat Obviously Sandy hasn’t had to deal with the little "construction freaks".  Contact your local Fish and Game and they will put you in touch with a local or state trapper to remedy your problems. It takes time and should be done in the Winter months as to not waste the hides.  They can be a real problem if you let them get a good hold on your drainage.  Good luck   Ace in Alaska

christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse.  It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

        to tell you the truth, i’ve never seen a beaver i wouldn’t love to eat.         a. wayne harrison

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: My advice ?   : One small cabin on the whole 100 acres on the dryest most protected spot. : Your wealth would exceed that possible by sub-dividing and developing. Maybe, but the question is whether he could afford the mortgage payments on that wealth.  Even the locals get caught up in this stuff… I see it all over.  Pretty soon, the latecomers will start complaining about all the growth… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Who knows, maybe the deer will visit you in your dreams.

in the mountain village,    the wind rustles the leaves. deep in the night, the deer    cry out beyond the end of dreams.            – minimoto no morotada

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Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get and where we’ll build the whore house.

I heard that a famous tributary of the Snake got its name when some trappers were sitting around and one said "someone go into town and bring a Hoback". TimW

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you). But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? — Sandy, I’d sure like to teach the beavers how to get rid of you! But, maybe the greedy real estate agent that handled the sale would be a better target. Pat

Good old leg holds and conibear traps have always worked well for me. Don Kelly

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Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not!

This thread has been a lesson in mass-hysteria.  I don’t know whether Sandy has ever been to California, but he’s lived in Montana as long as I’ve known him. Sandy: do what you must with the beavers, but PLEASE don’t subdivide! If you Montanans continue to chop up Montana into little make-believe tourist ranches, as we have done to Colorado, where will I go on vacation? — -Wayne Trzyna

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Dear Ralph; Oh, Lord, man; you are great, just great!  I love it: you should be a writer or something.  

Yea, maybe he could write a guide about fishing the Sierra Nevada for trout. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not! This thread has been a lesson in mass-hysteria.  I don’t know whether Sandy has ever been to California, but he’s lived in Montana as long as I’ve known him.

I don’t know if Sandy has been to California either but I know that Ralph lives there and I lived in California all my life.  The environment that Ralph lived is nothing like the area that I lived.  So, I’m wondering, exactly what is a Californian’s natural environment, or does Jason just have some stereotypical view of what California is like. Sandy: do what you must with the beavers, but PLEASE don’t subdivide! If you Montanans continue to chop up Montana into little make-believe tourist ranches, as we have done to Colorado, where will I go on vacation?

Maybe Sandy should parcel off the 2/3rds to the readers of ROFF.  The only thing we’d have to figure out is what section Tim is going to get and where we’ll build the whore house. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What?

As long as the habitat is right, they will come back even if you kill them all right now.  Consider the South Platte corridor right through Denver. They can’t keep a young tree alive in this park-like setting for the beavers. My advice ?   One small cabin on the whole 100 acres on the dryest most protected spot. Your wealth would exceed that possible by sub-dividing and developing. Who knows, maybe the deer will visit you in your dreams. TimW

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This is a hot topic around here (NC) as well. Beaver populations are way up in suburbia – all their predators are gone and the beavers are protected in many areas. Many neighborhood lakes have trouble ranging from tree loss to damage to dams. I have lost a couple of trees on a lot I own to beavers. Sometimes they are trapped live and relocated, but there are fewer and fewer places to put them. I put chicken wire around the base of all the remaining trees. Nice simple solution for me – I only have a small lot to protect, and they can move on and bother someone else. But I can certainly understand how options might be limited in other cases. I am glad I don’t have to think about doing it, but I think there may be cases where it may be necessary. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace?

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So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace?

I can tell this must be some sort of religious thing for you George since you seem to evoke the christian deity frequently on this topic. However, if you want a vote I would say "It all depends" (no, I’m not running for office). For example, our family has had hunting-fishing property here since the 30’s or 40’s (that’s the last 50-60 years). There have never been beaver in that area. The last 4 years or so beaver have moved in and have devastated many areas for fishing. This situation would very likely reach a new equilibrium in about 20-30 years as the stream beds moved, swamps formed etc. However, since beaver are new there, we are not willing to sacrifice a generation of fishing to reach that point- sorry but that’s too bad. However, if the original poster bought land that had been long colonized by beaver and the ecosystem and trout reproduction were in equilibrium with the beaver, then I would say 1) don’t bother them and 2) they are probably so locally widespread that you will never make much headway since they will continually recolonize the area and 3) they probably don’t negatively impact the fishing under those conditions and may actually help and 4) don’t develop (subdivide) the land. Signing off without a deprecating remark. Jon

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — Yeah, the beavers are in their natural environment.  The Californian is not!

JB

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Yah, the fact I missed mentioning you if you’re for killing beavers as a solution to every human who thinks they have a problem with beavers. They were here long before we arrived.  Seems "Man" cannot keep his hand off a spot on this earth for even a little bird to stand upon.  So, what is your problem that you cannot stand up for the life of one beaver?  Or two, or a family of them which make beautiful Brook Trout Ponds and rich soiled valley’s that produce in time . . . lush, green elk pastures or habitat for moose, etc? Instead of being a smart-ass and talking about fly tying and flies that are used on Beaver Ponds . . . your kind only can think of how to miss-manage our wildlife.  Right? right. So, if you want some kind of vote on who’s approach to an idiots QUESTION regarding beavers and beaver ponds is more acceptable . . . let my fellow fly fishermen post a few replies regarding "KILLING BEAVERS", is the preferred approach, okay ace? christ.. George Gehrke / Mr. Gink

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Quoting: christ.  (Stick some dynamite up your ass and then light the fuse. It will solve your beaver problem to my satisfaction) George Gehrke/Professional Sportsman

Any other readers see a paradox here? — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Dear Ralph; Oh, Lord, man; you are great, just great!  I love it: you should be a writer or something.  You just took his post, stood on the complete opposite side of it, telling us like it is.  Just beautiful, man!  Those urbanites: now, with the age of delocation upon us, no wilderness is safe from their spoiling touch.  Keep up the good fight! Sincerely Jason Beary

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  But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand

1.  Normal beaver life style includes excluding the young from the family i.e. forcing them to emigrate, when they get to be two years old.  So sooner or later the parent couple will die off and the site will become vacant. 2.  You can accelerate this by the combination of opportunistic shooting and trapping, easiest in winter when ice restricts their movement. Exterminating a single family seems to do no appreciable damage to the continent-wide beaver gene pool these days. 3.  But you need to bear in mind #1, i.e. there’s another beaver family two or three miles away that will be kicking its young adults out of the nest — and when they find your site vacant they will occupy it!  The cycle of occupation/vacancy seems to be 7 or 8 years.     As someone else posted, local wildlife authorities may (or may not) have better advice about both short-term and long-term control.  Beaver can do a lot of damage where species like poplar are abundant, e.g. can fell whole stands of mature trees and just leave them there without salvaging the proceeds. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Let’s say you just bought 100 of the prettiest acres ever put up for sale in South West Montana…complete with 3/4 of a mile of a deep, clear, undercut spring creek, large brown trout, deer, sand hill cranes, ducks, geese, eagles, osprey, snipe, pheasants, badgers and beavers. And it’s only nine miles from town. You wanna sell off two thirty acre pieces and build on the third.   But the damn beavers are flooding the road so bad you’re afraid to list your property. Worse, they’re mowing down dense, thick, old-growth willows like a drunk redneck with a chainsaw. So you start shooting beavers. (this is still all totally hypothetical, mind you).  But the damn beavers start to get smart (after killing five in the first three nights) and start waiting till way after dark to come out of their lodge. So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What? —

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So what’s the best way to kill beavers? Chloroform in the lodge? Hand grenades? What?

How about live trapping and relocation? — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, ichthyophile. Toronto, Ontario, Canada. see my illustrations at http://www.mackerel.com/fish/home.html

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Question:

I’ll be in Montana the first full week of August.  How is the Madison around Ennis Lake fishing?  What should I tie?

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I’ll be in Montana the first full week of August.  How is the Madison around Ennis Lake fishing?  What should I tie?

Hi Davis Family The Madison has been fishing great!  Hoppers (#8) and caddis (EHC #12 – #20 light and dark) are the name of the game and will continue on into August.  Besure to have plenty Bead Head Nymphs, Serendipities (spelling?), attractors (Humpies & Wulffs #12 – #18),etc. Have a good trip. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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Question:

Thanks to all for their input.   As for now…It’s practice, practice, practice

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action.  Any opinions for a beginner?  btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural.  No fighting now, just opinions.

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IMHO flycasting is really counter intuitive.  Everything your body tells you is right, isn’t.  What starts out feeling awkward – works.  Once you understand how a fly rod works, then how you need to move it makes sense.

My observation is that this is especially true if you start thinking about it too much… If you simply focus on the fish and the objective at hand, the fly simply ends up right…. …in the top of a tree… TimW

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IMHO flycasting is really counter intuitive.  Everything your body tells you is right, isn’t.  What starts out feeling awkward – works.  Once you understand how a fly rod works, then how you need to move it makes sense.

Dan,         I started to take exception to your statement, thought about it a moment, and realized…. I was lousy at sports my whole life.  It’s a wonder I can even throw a ball, and don’t expect me to throw it accurately. And, I’m left-handed.  My whole life is about awkward!  So, what do I know about how normal motion should feel? Tight lines, and keep your line off the handle, Charley

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I frimly beleive thta Lefty Kreh’s methods work the best. Find a book or video that he has done and try to employ his methods. A lot of what he taught me was employed fishing in harsh weather and in tournaments. Lefty uses his arms and shoulders more than wrist. Tight lines!! Ron

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I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action.  Any opinions for a beginner?  btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural.  No fighting now, just opinions.

In actuality Baglock, how you move the rod doesn’t matter to the rod as long as you move the right distance for the appropriate amount of line with the right acceleration.  Doesn’t care what muscles you use either. If you move the rod in the correct manner you will get a good cast. Then the trick is to be able to repeat it over and over and be accurate and be comfortable all day when doing it.  To meet those criteria I recommend you try to use your forearm as an entire unit and try not to use your wrist at all.  Now the cast can’t actually be done well or easily without a final touch of wrist in each direction, but it is a VERY SMALL movement of the wrist.  If you try not to move your wrist you will probably move it about right, if you try to use your wrist you will move it too much. If you use your forearm as the main lever, you are using a big lever with strong muscles and only one real moving part – the elbow. Fewer variables, more reliable predictions and results.  If you use your wrist to make the cast you are using your hand – a tiny lever, your forearm muscles – which are much weaker than your biceps and triceps, and you have about 12? points of movement in your wrist making it much more difficult to reliably repeat the needed movements.  IMHO flycasting is really counter intuitive.  Everything your body tells you is right, isn’t.  What starts out feeling awkward – works.  Once you understand how a fly rod works, then how you need to move it makes sense. If you have trouble picking it up then here are some options: 1) take a casting lesson (best and fastest way to learn either small group or private) 2) join a local fly fishing club (great for all facets of FF and many offer lessons though quality of instructionmay vary from outstanding to barely OK . 3) get a copy of Mel Krieger’s "Essence of Flycasting (vol.1)"                           Hope this helps,                                   Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast

Try the no wrist movement. It provides a tigher cast. Make sure your thumb is on the top of the handle and you should see it at 12 oclock when you stop on the back cast.

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I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action.  Any opinions for a beginner?  btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural.  No fighting now, just opinions. Any good fly shop should be able to provide you with a good book and video on fly casting.  In the meantime, if you tie the end of the butt

section of your rod to your forearm and cast it, you’ll get the idea of how the cast should feel when properly done.  If you break your wrist on the back cast, you’ll likely increase your chances of bringing the tip back too far and slapping your line on the water behind you.  The same is true for the forward cast.  Good luck. Stan

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I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action.  Any opinions for a beginner?  btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural.  No fighting now, just opinions.

I found the recent article in the September 96 issue of Fly Fisherman (Correcting 5 Casting Mistakes) to be very helpful.  Check it out. Team OS/2                  847.808.3913

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I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action.  Any opinions for a beginner?  btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural.  No fighting now, just opinions.

Three thoughts come to mind: 1)      Devote some time to practice in your yard or at the park.  It’ll be easier         to focus on the casting when there is no chance of catching fish 2)      When my casting seems a little difficult, I focus on my backcast.  I try to         visualize abruptly opening a freezer door (like the ones on fridges where the freezer         section is on top).  While this may sound whacky, it usually serves to elevate and tighten         my backcast.  For me, casting troubles are usually rooted in a faulty backcast. 3)      Practice enough to feel the fod flex under the weight of the line. When you can feel         the rod at work, you will quickly be able to cast well.  You’ll also be able to adjust         to different rod actions because it will seem natural to adjust your stroke to maintain         the feeling of the rod at work. There are lots of helpful books on the subject.  Different conditions, rods, and target situations will have you using lots of wrist sometimes and little or no wrist other times. Hope this helps, August Kristoferson http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action.  Any opinions for a beginner?  btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural.  No fighting now, just opinions.

Response:

I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments.  I have heard that the "correct" cast has little  or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action.  Any opinions for a beginner?  btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural.  No fighting now, just opinions.

Definitely no wrist action, use your arm.  Rod tip should be traveling in a straight line. — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.

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Question:

I’ve heard Montauk State Park is located on the headwaters of the Current River and has access to trout flyfishing area.  Looking for more info from someone who knows this area.  I’m thinking of going there in May. Regards to all, Robert

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Try: http://www.agron.missouri.edu/flyfishing/ John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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You’re right. Montauk is the head of the current river, and offers considerable amount of trout water. But it’s going to be fairly crowded, even on the stretch of flies-only water. –

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I’ve heard Montauk State Park is located on the headwaters of the Current River and has access to trout flyfishing area.  Looking for more info from someone who knows this area.  I’m thinking of going there in May. Regards to all, Robert

Go! The fishing in the park is mostly corn etc, yet there are some sections for flies only. Good if you want to go fishmarket fishing. Nice place. Great place for kids. The park has a couple of places for catch and release fishing, a small stream and a lake. Current river itself is beautiful. There are a couple of access points just downstream of the park. (get a map and a sturdy vehicle) "Baptist Camp" is the one I usually go to and fish up and down stream. I have had some great days upstream under the canopy of trees. Generally it’s best to find a guide and float the river (canoe) if you want to get the most out of it due to somewhat limited access due to purposeful design. The canoe is used mainly for transportation to wade spots, although I have caught a few from the boat. I have never caught any really large fish on the Current, but normally catch quite a few in the 14 to 25 category. I used a guy by the name of Tom Shipley. Don’t know his wherebouts these days. Maybe you will get some names on this posting. Kevin Williams

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Question:

I know an awesome salt water fly guide who fishes Long Island sound. He is reasonable and thinks like a fish. He is a good freind, but an even better guide. Let me know if you are interested.

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I WILL BE IN THE LONG ISLAND AREA IN THE EARLY SUMMER.  ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR SALT WATER FLY OPPORTUNITIES?

Sorry – I should have said try    rec.outdoors.fishing.saltwater

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If you’re gonna be on the east End of Long Island, there are three shops in east hampton. Paul Dixon, who used to manage Orvis in NYC, has a shop in EH called Dixon’s sporting life and he runs flats boats on Gardiners Bay for Strippers and blues. There’s another fellow between EH and Amagagansett who has a french name which I do not recall right now. His shop is Lure and Feather and its worth checking out. Finally, there’s Harvey Bennett and the Amagansett tackle shop where Fly fishing is not the only show, but he’s worth checking out. For flats fishing check out gardiners bay. On a map this is the area north of the south Fork where it gets wide just east of EH. There are some beaches that provide access to the water, but you may have to talk to the town offices to find out where you could park without a required permit. It is NY afterall. Gerard Drive, which seperates Gardiners bay from Accabonac Harbort is Beautiful. Have a good time.

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I WILL BE IN THE LONG ISLAND AREA IN THE EARLY SUMMER.  ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR SALT WATER FLY OPPORTUNITIES?

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I’d like to doing some salt action in the chessequake state park area this spring from the beach area, any suggestions as to time(apr,may, june?), and specific locations?

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GBloom, Bay Head Outfitters, in Bay Head N.J. should be able to answer all you questions. Regards, Ed

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I WILL BE IN THE LONG ISLAND AREA IN THE EARLY SUMMER.  ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR SALT WATER FLY OPPORTUNITIES?

Try   rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   You have e better chance for good info there.

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