Question:

OK, maybe this is stupid, maybe its not. The reason I never did any big game hunting (deer, moose, etc) was I felt sorry for the animals. No problem whatsoever with my buddies who did it; I like deer meat. But I had this horrible empathy for them so I didn’t want to shoot them myself. Let someone else more steel-willed do it. Now, when I see pictures of trout on the fly, I see always notice them staring down at their mouths, like they are trying like hell to see what they have that is dragging them out of the water. Its like they are totally amazed or something. Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? riverman

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Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? riverman

I read somewhere that the fish tries to keep its eyes pointing up so if it is lying on its side it looks as if it is looking at its nose, this is one way of telling if a fish in a picture is alive or dead. I wonder if that is why a fish stays still if you hold it lying on its back making it dissorientated. — Don`t Worry, Be Happy       Sandy —       Website:-  http://www.ftscotland.co.uk     IRC:- Sandyb in #Rabble  uk3.arcnet.vapor.com Port:6667      #Rabble Channel Website:- http://rabbled.cjb.net              ICQ : 41266150

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, maybe this is stupid, maybe its not. The reason I never did any big game hunting (deer, moose, etc) was I felt sorry for the animals. No problem whatsoever with my buddies who did it; I like deer meat. But I had this horrible empathy for them so I didn’t want to shoot them myself. Let someone else more steel-willed do it. Now, when I see pictures of trout on the fly, I see always notice them staring down at their mouths, like they are trying like hell to see what they have that is dragging them out of the water. Its like they are totally amazed or something. Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal?

Yes. Stop it. Go fishing. TL, Tim

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? riverman I read somewhere that the fish tries to keep its eyes pointing up so if it is lying on its side it looks as if it is looking at its nose, this is one way of telling if a fish in a picture is alive or dead. I wonder if that is why a fish stays still if you hold it lying on its back making it dissorientated.

They are disorientated.  Next time you have a trout held inverted,  watch what it does with its dorsal and pectoral fins and to a lesser degree the ventral fin.  If you move the trout to different angles,  you can induce him to try to roll in the opposite direction.  The fish obviously uses its fins to manoeuvre in the current just like the rudders on a aeroplane.  The trout must be bewildered as to why he cannot control his position whilst in air ~ everything must feel wrong to the fish, and so he dedicates all his brain power into trying to get himself back the right way up before he uses his tail to swim away.  If a trout is delicately help upside down he is so easy to unhook and release ~  however, a grayling is a different matter altogether! Regards, Michael.

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No need to feel sorry for the animals, they dont give a squat about you.  As far as the fish is concerned you are trying to relate to them in human terms…its a fish for pete sakes, its brain is the size of a pebble.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, maybe this is stupid, maybe its not. The reason I never did any big game hunting (deer, moose, etc) was I felt sorry for the animals. No problem whatsoever with my buddies who did it; I like deer meat. But I had this horrible empathy for them so I didn’t want to shoot them myself. Let someone else more steel-willed do it. Now, when I see pictures of trout on the fly, I see always notice them staring down at their mouths, like they are trying like hell to see what they have that is dragging them out of the water. Its like they are totally amazed or something. Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal?

Considering your catch rate, Riverman, I don’t think you have anything to worry about. Think of it this way. If the fish weighed 500 pounds and you were floating down the river, he’d eat you. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Not that I’m gonna quit fishing or anything, but when I see pics like this one http://www.ncffb.org/cgi-bin/ncffb.cgi?read=139220 I just sort of find myself feeling sorry for the poor bastard. Is this, like, completely abnormal? Considering your catch rate, Riverman, I don’t think you have anything to worry about.

If that weren’t so painfully true, it’d be funny. Actually, its pretty funny anyway. riverman

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

A McVeigh fan, eh? — Harry Krause And if he continues that, I’m going to tell the nation what I think about him as a human being and a person. -GW Bush

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Take this to another group.  Mcviegh doesn’t flyfish. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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So we got what…20 or so replies on this thread all cross posted… Fists now ready to fly… Figure out what a *TROLL* is yet Knuckleheads??? "Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.  It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.  Please report problems or inappropriate use to the

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Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. A McVeigh fan, eh?

Nah. He’s got this weird, kinky thing going with GI Joe…

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On May 16th he won’t be doing much except gasping and gurgling……So no he doesn’t fly fish, nor does he collect gijoes, or travel, or figure blowflies……. That will teach him to murder 19 little kids and 148 adults!

Take this to another group.  Mcviegh doesn’t flyfish.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade Wade, I do like the way you put things, even if there is a power shortage! RichT

Sorry I forgot about the energy shortage, we could reduce the amount of power by say 40% it would take just a little longer but that just collateral damage. Wade

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*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

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May the sniveling little coward roast in hell. I’d go to hell myself for a chance to shove a pineapple up his ass sideways.

hmmm…now there’s an image that conjures interest…perhaps one of the western or southern states could add that to its capital punishment options.  ok now mr mcveigh…it’s either the gas chamber, hanging, firing squad, lethal injection, or rw will shove a pineapple up your ass sideways…<g jeff

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Lets have Tim BBQ’d Wade

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if you want to play, you gotta pay! not to mention the intelligence of someone fleeing the scene in a car with out a plate and an unregistered gun under the seat. — jimi g. " It wasn’t a miracle, It was INFANTRY!"  – Omaha beach survivor and MOH recipient, 1998 — Eco. 51st inf. reg. 23inf. div. 9th SS Feldgendarmerie when you want to trade 1/6th or 1/1 scale, first visit the 1/6th scale INF.  at : http://people.mw.mediaone.net/wgreyson/home.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

Response:

He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

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Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself.  And stay off off this newsgroup. Please.  If I have to say it again, I won’t be this nice, jerk. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He is a mass murderer.  Murder is murder. Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm He’s a piece of trash. The death penality is too easy for him. — Harry Krause This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mential losses. -GW Bush

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Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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May the sniveling little coward roast in hell. I’d go to hell myself for a chance to shove a pineapple up his ass sideways.

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Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about.

He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade

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He was a fruitcake that knew exactly what he was doing, so now lets fry him or transform him in to road kill. Wade

Wade, I do like the way you put things, even if there is a power shortage! RichT

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*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

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*NEW URL* http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_justice/Untitled-1.htm

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There are ways to protest the wrongdoings of government that don’t involve killing large numbers of innocent people. McViegh is no martyr, just a cowardly mass murderer. Let him die. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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Can you say TROLL?  I KNEW you could. Pat Lubbock, Texas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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May we all Please just ZOTZ this Usenet Troll; you can talk about this till your hearts are content in the appropriate forums.  Placing this cross-posted off topic BS here is just someone’s self serving attempt to stir shit… Cross-Posted Off Topic Usenet Abuse Path: sn-us!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com! enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!anon.lcs.mit. edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news-x5!mail2news-x4!mail2news-x3!mail2news-x2!ma il2news Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender address above.  It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software.  Please report problems or inappropriate use to the Newsgroups: alt.comp.periphs.cdr,alt.toys.gi-joe,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.outdoo rs.rv-travel,rec.sport.skating.ice.figure Lines: 8 Xref: sn-us alt.comp.periphs.cdr:298178 alt.toys.gi-joe:305294 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:239740 rec.outdoors.rv-travel:270678 rec.sport.skating.ice.figure:330013

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Was Tim McVeigh a mass murderer, a pawn of the FBI, a White worker fed up with Affirmative Action or did he just right a grievous wrong done by an out of control world government? A different perspective from what Good Morning America would like you to think about. http://www.geocities.com/mcveigh_martyr/Untitled-1.htm

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Question:

Got up. Cleaned the travel trailer. Hung a picture…in my trailer. 1st decoration in my trailer. It’s a caricature of a flyfishing guy and a little story about how the whole purpose of flyfishing is to spend money. It looks good. Thanks Mark, it will be there for as long as I own it. john

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Thanks Mark, it will be there for as long as I own it. john

The picture or the trailer? Op

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Got up. It’s a caricature of a flyfishing guy and a little story about how the whole purpose of flyfishing is to spend money. It looks good. Thanks Mark, it will be there for as long as I own it. john

The picture or the trailer? Wayne to fish is human…to release Divine!!  —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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picture? trailer?

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break? Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address) Intertwined loops "will" have a tendancy to cut each other.

Learn to use a palomar knot.  They are easier and faster to tie than the clinch and improved clinch knots, and stronger too.  The only setback is that the line must go through the eye of the hook twice, which can be rather tricky on some smaller flies.  I’ve often wondered why more people don’t use this knot. TimeRanger is absolutely correct: intertwined loops WILL cut each other under stress.  When pulled they will effectively form a kink in each loop which will be MUCH weaker than the surrounding line.  They’ll hold up just fine until you’ve got a fish or a snag and then you’ll lose both fly and tippet material. Tom Before you buy.

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Learn to use a palomar knot.  They are easier and faster to tie than the clinch and improved clinch knots, and stronger too.  The only setback is that the line must go through the eye of the hook twice, which can be rather tricky on some smaller flies.  I’ve often wondered why more people don’t use this knot.

I don’t really think there’s anything special about the palomar knot, or the turle knot, other than the fact they specifically call for going through the eye twice.  You can tie other basic knots by going through the eye twice.  The clinch knot works fine for example.  Put the line through the eye, then over (or under, depending on up or down eye) the shank just behind the eye, then back through the eye.  Art Lee called it the Tweed Clinch I think.  I found it works just fine with the uniknot as well.  Makes a cool knot. Regards, Jeff

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I don’t really think there’s anything special about the palomar knot, or the turle knot, other than the fact they specifically call for going through the eye twice.  ……  What makes it quite special for me is that it is one  of the very few knots that I can tie reasonably quickly  without wearing my reading glasses.  greg.

What are the smallest hook-size flies that you use? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break? Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

LOL…I almost could get a headache thinking about it! I assume that if you’re new to the sport you probably don’t have a lot of flies (yet!).   I probably take several thousand with me on a trip, and am carrying up to several hundred at any one time (including the various sizes).   It’s not unusual for me to have thirty or forty drying on my vest by the end of a day.   Where are all those leaders going to go?  They sure won’t fit into the small fly boxes that I carry, and the leaders flapping around while the flies are drying on my vest might get a bit bothersome. Tippet size:  though tippet size is generally determined by fly size, at times you may want to go down (spooky fish in crystal water) or up (monsters breaking off, and not selective about tippet size).   Would you have extras tied to take care of any eventuallity? Line memory:  you probably already are having to run the tippet through your fingers on ocassion, to get out the loops.   If you have tight little coils of tippet attached to the flies for any length of time – say a few months – you’re likely to see that problem increased many-fold.   If you don’t coil the line, you’ll have to have some sort of 2′ long fly box for the leaders to stay straight. Casting problems: back when I started, we tied our own leaders, using different sized leader material, graduating down to smaller sizes, for good ‘turn over.’   All the knots in the leader made for some interesting tangles, at times, especially in windy conditions.  The invention of the one-piece tapered leader was quite a boon for many of us.  Now you want to start adding more loops and knots? But go ahead and try it and get back to the board with your results. Who knows, you might find a solution that will be the next big step in fly fishing.  After all, they laughed at Orville and Wilbur, too… Best of luck. Max Before you buy.

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I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break? Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

Response:

I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break? Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

Your idea will work just fine.  Probably the best knot to use is Lefty Kreh’s nonslip loop – it is plenty strong for what you are suggesting. The joined loops have never spooked fish in my experience.  Just let me warn you that it won’t be quite as efficient as you might think.  Even loops cut and weaken after awhile, so you will need to retie your loop every now and then.  Retying the loop will eat up quite a bit of leader, and putting tippet on all those flies will sure put a dent in that $9 roll of fluorocarbon  (sp?). If you do give this procedure a try I would recommend (for most western dry fly/nymph applications) using about a 7 1/2 leader tapered to 2X, and then looping in about a 2-3 foot piece of either 3X or 4X. I still use this procedure sometimes myself, but in general I am content just to tie the water knot (4 turn surgeons knot).   The connection is strong, clean, and simple, and efforts to prolong leader life are pretty well doomed from the start.  If you go ahead and try your procedure for a while, I would really like to hear how it goes for you. John.

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I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break?

Ignoring for a moment the fact that the typical flyfisherman may carry hundreds of flies, people won’t do this because it requires foresight. How many times have you guys been furiously changing flies to cast to a rising fish, and you find out that the fly you want to use has a little knot of tippet in the eye? Either that, or the barb isn’t bent down. Or the hook isn’t sharp. Whatever, it’s precious seconds lost. A rational angler would make sure all his flies were ready to go before he hits the stream. I just snip off the old fly and toss it back in the box in whatever condition it’s in. Actually, Ken, since you’re new to the sport I expect it takes you quite awhile to tie surgeon’s knots and clinch knots (or whatever you use). With practice you’ll get much faster. That’s actually a big step, because as you get faster the idea of changing flies and tippets won’t be as loathesome, so you’ll experiment more and probably catch more fish. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break? Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

Intertwined loops "will" have a tendancy to cut each other.  

Response:

I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break? Ken

Ken, you have just re-invented the snelled hook!  This is the way they actually did it in the old days, back before somebody had the bright idea to put eyes on the hooks.  Of course, the snell was made of gut, which you had to soak with water the day before you went fishing to soften it up, along with your leaders. To see the weakness of this system, consider the fact that the average fly fisherman accumulates flies in his or her fly vest at a rate of approximately 400 per year (after a few years they will start to breed on their own.)  Just think about having to manage all those thousands of bits of string.  I would almost be afraid to open up one of my fly boxes. Kevin

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Because the number of flys carried would cause a massive snarl of tippet. If interested, there is however an answer to the delima. There is on the market a small clip that is so light it floats. tieing it with a loop permits flys to properly oriet themselves and saves tippet tying. You can purchase them at some fly shops or from the Cabelas catalog. John Popp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to this sport and am puzzled by the practice of tieing 2 ft. of tippet to a leader then cutting the tippet ever shorter as you change flies. Why not just put 2 ft. of tippet "leader" on each fly, with a loop on the other end and engage it to a loop in the end of the leader?  Is the disturbance of two intertwined loops 2 ft. from the fly any greater than a surgeon’s knot?  Will the intertwined loops break? Ken (to reply via email remove "zz" from address)

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My home river has been alternating on a daily basis between running high and muddy and high and clear with an amber tinge. When it is running amber, the fishing is pretty good, but with the heavy flows, traditional dry techniques aren’t productive. In this heavy flowing, colored water, I’ve been having good success with a technique that was shown to me by an old rancher about twenty years ago. The technique is a fun one and is often productive when the trout are reluctant to come up for traditionally fished dries. It’s a technique geared for fishing fast, heavy water. I use it mainly in pocket water, but it also works on the streamside edges of heavy, deep water and in around any obstructions in deep strong runs. The flies I use are a high floating dry with a wet fly or soft hackle on a dropper of about 2 feet. I generally use a dry about two sizes bigger than I normally would and use a fly two sizes smaller than the dry as a dropper. The dropper is optional but will result in more hookups. I’ll describe the technique for a pocket water situation where I mainly use it. Casts can be short or long, but since you can approach fish closely in pocket water, often surprisingly close, and short casts give you much more control, I use casts of under fifteen feet 90% of the time. The only time I use longer casts is when the water is too deep or heavy to get to an area I want to fish. I try to fish an area thoroughly, even spots where there doesn’t appear to be any rocks that could break up the current, but I concentrate the casts to run through any visible areas where larger rocks provide calm water cushions. I generally a cast up and across stream and immediately raise the rod tip to lift all the fly line off the water and get direct contact with the fly.  I then begin dragging and skipping the fly across the current. I vary the action of the fly but the key is lots of action.  When the flies get in a position just below me, I begin maneuvering them through each small pocket I can find.  I skitter them upstream and down, back and forth through any pockets below. This technique will bring good fish to the surface that ignore more placid, traditional techniques. The quick moving flies result in strikes that are aggressive, vicious, slashing, fast, exciting etc. and you will get many more misses than hookups. Setting the hook at the strike usually results in pulling the fly away from the trout. Strikes need to be delayed but because of the tight line, the fish will usually hook themselves. Since there are a large percentage of missed fish with this technique, the feeding locations and holding areas that are revealed, need to be fished again. Since most of these missed strikes, refusals etc. are to the larger, more visible dry, the next thing I do is to try to maneuver the small dropper through the area trying to skip it across the surface. If this doesn’t work, I do a number of traditional drag free drifts through the area, paying close attention for hits on the dropper. This technique is definitely a kick when it’s working.  It elicits strikes from trout more akin to those of a bass or a pike to a popper than a typical sedate sip to a dry. I tend to ignore the technique when the fish are rising to more typical techniques but maybe I shouldn’t. Willi Interesting technique Willi.  I think most of us have used a similar

approach for pocket water, but not with a dropper, and not with a systematic plan.  For me its been an approach used out of necessity at times for fishing pocket water, especially casting over currents or boulders.  I’ll try it next opportunity. Pat K Before you buy.

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My home river has been alternating on a daily basis between running high and muddy and high and clear with an amber tinge. When it is running amber, the fishing is pretty good, but with the heavy flows, traditional dry techniques aren’t productive. In this heavy flowing, colored water, I’ve been having good success with a technique that was shown to me by an old rancher about twenty years ago. The technique is a fun one and is often productive when the trout are reluctant to come up for traditionally fished dries. It’s a technique geared for fishing fast, heavy water. I use it mainly in pocket water, but it also works on the streamside edges of heavy, deep water and in around any obstructions in deep strong runs. The flies I use are a high floating dry with a wet fly or soft hackle on a dropper of about 2 feet. I generally use a dry about two sizes bigger than I normally would and use a fly two sizes smaller than the dry as a dropper. The dropper is optional but will result in more hookups. I’ll describe the technique for a pocket water situation where I mainly use it. Casts can be short or long, but since you can approach fish closely in pocket water, often surprisingly close, and short casts give you much more control, I use casts of under fifteen feet 90% of the time. The only time I use longer casts is when the water is too deep or heavy to get to an area I want to fish. I try to fish an area thoroughly, even spots where there doesn’t appear to be any rocks that could break up the current, but I concentrate the casts to run through any visible areas where larger rocks provide calm water cushions. I generally a cast up and across stream and immediately raise the rod tip to lift all the fly line off the water and get direct contact with the fly.  I then begin dragging and skipping the fly across the current. I vary the action of the fly but the key is lots of action.  When the flies get in a position just below me, I begin maneuvering them through each small pocket I can find.  I skitter them upstream and down, back and forth through any pockets below. This technique will bring good fish to the surface that ignore more placid, traditional techniques. The quick moving flies result in strikes that are aggressive, vicious, slashing, fast, exciting etc. and you will get many more misses than hookups. Setting the hook at the strike usually results in pulling the fly away from the trout. Strikes need to be delayed but because of the tight line, the fish will usually hook themselves. Since there are a large percentage of missed fish with this technique, the feeding locations and holding areas that are revealed, need to be fished again. Since most of these missed strikes, refusals etc. are to the larger, more visible dry, the next thing I do is to try to maneuver the small dropper through the area trying to skip it across the surface. If this doesn’t work, I do a number of traditional drag free drifts through the area, paying close attention for hits on the dropper. This technique is definitely a kick when it’s working.  It elicits strikes from trout more akin to those of a bass or a pike to a popper than a typical sedate sip to a dry. I tend to ignore the technique when the fish are rising to more typical techniques but maybe I shouldn’t. Willi

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Question:

Oh man.  Bears and goats and underwear and snakes and trees and…and….and…jeez!  What kind of people are you??!

Ya ain’t seen nothin’ ’till you’ve seen an ol’ rattler tryin’ to get his fangs loose from LaPlac’s shorts<g. — Charlie…

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ROFFLOL

Rolling Outdoors Fly Fishing Laughing Out Loud??? Regards, Jeff

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(Hilarious stuff snipped) Steve, I sure hope you keep this up, ’cause I find myself wading through all the other stuff just to find your review (I also make certain that I have no comestibles in my mouth that might otherwise coat my monitor). Thanks for the levity. Bob

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we need a new acronym because ROTFLMBO is and understatement after reading this weeks report.

How about  LSHIPM  (Laughing So Hard I Pissed Myself) Though this appropriate thanks to the go potty post. Peter

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ROFFLOL

Monday April 24th Discussion of a cleaner, gentler version of ROFF continues this week

<and cetera

Response:

much good snippeded.. Walt, far beit for me to call into question your sage advise, but on Upper Creek the odds of seeing is pretty fair; however, the odds of being bitten is anyone’s guess!  Caution is emphasized!  In addition to everything else I own, I ,always, carry a snake bite kit. Which leads me to another thought: Are there any good sherpas coming to the Clave! Opie and so are the snakes. i’d like to emphasize that the odds of seeing,

snippage… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a serpent is extremely remote, the situation does exist so take a little bit more care than usual moving up a stream, especially where you put your hands when climbing. waldo

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C… leaves are coming out… and so are the snakes….

Oh man.  Bears and goats and underwear and snakes and trees and…and….and…jeez!  What kind of people are you??!

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By midweek they’re drinking Metamucil instead of scotch and crashing at 9 o’clock.

But up plenty early to see PJ drag *your* ass out of bed<g. — Charlie…

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By midweek they’re drinking Metamucil instead of scotch and crashing at 9 o’clock. But up plenty early to see PJ drag *your* ass out of bed<g. — Charlie…

which is well worth the price of admission also…. although jeff, mark, and i got some serious fishing done this past week, there’s still plenty left to do. the best moment i had was on a little feeder stream in the wilson watershed… jeff, after much ado, standing in a small waterfall, bow & arrowed a stimulator through a tight gauntlet of rhodo into a small stone faced pool …. he was rewarded with a truly beautiful wild brown of about 10-12 inches and i was rewarded with the satisfaction of  viewing a well done presentation in a damn near impossible scenario. way to go jeffie, you’ve earned your small stream badge one other note of import…. spring is here… leaves are coming out… and so are the snakes. i’d like to emphasize that the odds of seeing, much less being bitten by a serpent is extremely remote, the situation does exist so take a little bit more care than usual moving up a stream, especially where you put your hands when climbing. waldo

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< great stuff snipped With blatant disregard for the feelings of those who won’t be arriving at the clave until later in the week, Tom Brown posts the Clave Kickoff menu, generating a collective outporing of drool not experienced since Greg Pavlov’s last post. …

For future reference, it’s been my observation that it’s best to arrive at a ‘Clave as early as possible. Tom’s Opening Ceremonies feast is one good reason, another is that the geezers are still able to party and socialize a bit early in the week. By midweek they’re drinking Metamucil instead of scotch and crashing at 9 o’clock. — Ken Fortenberry

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Definitely first class synopsis and commentary Steve.  Hope you will continue the weekly satire.

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Monday April 24th [snip] Meanwhile the Dueling Daves (Tripper and LaCourse) get in an argument about who could wade the best back when they were both healthy enough to actually fish standing up. [snip] And that’s the week that was. Until next time, –Steve

we need a new acronym because ROTFLMBO is and understatement after reading this weeks report.

Response:

Monday April 24th Discussion of a cleaner, gentler version of ROFF continues this week

        oh, hell, man, this was terrific.  but not accurate.  i am the guy in charge of getting the *t-shirt* put together.  my little boy is the designer.  and louie laplac is the hat guy. wayno, always a stickler for the truth.

Response:

oh, hell, man, this was terrific.  but not accurate.  i am the guy in charge of getting the *t-shirt* put together.  my little boy is the designer.  and louie laplac is the hat guy.

Aw, crap. I knew that. My bad. Sorry LaCourse. –Steve

Response:

Aw, crap. I knew that. My bad. Sorry LaCourse.

Here’s a way to help you remember: when you think hat, think head. That leads to head up the ass, which leads to Forty. Since nobody would ever wear a hat designed by Forty, it has to be LaPlac! <g — Charlie…

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Totally freaking hilarious, Steve. You’ve founf your calling. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Totally freaking hilarious, Steve. You’ve founf your calling.

I agree.  I love reading Steve’s new week review.  :-) — Vern My ROFF page: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ResortRd/v_deloy/ROFFintro.html Before you buy.

Response:

Monday April 24th Discussion of a cleaner, gentler version of ROFF continues this week with topics falling into the following general categories: (1) Newbies are idiots; (2) People who call newbies idiots are idiots (3) People who whine about calling newbies idiots are idiots (4) People who get upset at those who whine about newbies being called idiots are idiots. Meanwhile the Dueling Daves (Tripper and LaCourse) get in an argument about who could wade the best back when they were both healthy enough to actually fish standing up. Vern suggests a new idea for a "telecopying" wading staff that will apparently allow you to send and receive lewd FAXes while fishing instead of having to sit on the cold copy machine at the office. Tuesday April 25th BillyFish exposes fly fishing’s dirty little secret (literally) when he poses the question "how do you go potty when you’re on a float tube in the middle of a lake?" Noted suggestions include: (1) soil yourself and change clothes when you get back to the car–Ken Fortenberry; (2) Wade wet and no one will know–Charlie Choc; (3) use the "Stadium Pal", which consists of three parts: an external catheter worn like a condom, a flexible hose, and a collection bag worn on the inner calf–Frank Reid. Incidentally, the Stadium Pal Web site provides a helpful sizing template you can use to determine what size catheter is the best fit–see http://www.stadiumpal.com/sizer.htm for details. NOTE to Muskie: don’t worry about printing out the template–the 23mm size should give you plenty of room to grow. Wednesday April 26th Political debate of the relative advantages of stiff versus limp resurfaces, with Democrats advocating a stiff leader and Republicans calling for a limp leader, for obvious reasons. The Roadless Initiative issue (aka the Ted Turner plan) is discussed, with several interesting facts being brought to the attention of the group: (1) 98 percent of the earth’s surface is covered in asphalt; (2) animals that have been seen by man are not wild–by definition–so therefore there is no proof that wild animals have ever existed; (3) The West is full of fat people passing themselves off as outdoorsmen. Thursday April 27th Planning for the upcoming Carolina Clave reaches a fever pitch. The Dueling Daves finally call a truce to their wader argument and begin fighting over how long it will take them to get to the Clave. Fortunately for everyone else, the thread quickly morphs into a YAWTDIYSABT (Yet Another What To Do If You See A Bear Thread). With blatant disregard for the feelings of those who won’t be arriving at the clave until later in the week, Tom Brown posts the Clave Kickoff menu, generating a collective outporing of drool not experienced since Greg Pavlov’s last post. With Wayne Harrison–this year’s Carolina Clave Hat Designer–not around for much of the week, speculation abounds that the Clave hat will be adorned with the familiar Born-Again-ROFFian acronym "WWJD", which of course stands for "What Would Jehrke Do?". We’ll have to await his response to see if these rumors are accurate. Friday April 28th Indian Joe has graciously offered to provide the meat for the Clave Chili (aka Chili con Carnage). Apparently he’ll also be providing the chopped tomatoes, left over from the Clave meal he prepared in October. A discussion of Claves for the Next Millenium (aka 2001) begins, with suggestions for California (are there fish left in California?) and Florida (are you allowed to fish at Disney World?) being offered as suggestions. Unfortunately, yours truly cannot in good faith accept the nomination as Florida Clavemeister because, well, I get *really* seasick standing in a boat and I think Steve Spurrier is Satan. Saturday April 29th Someone asks a question about strike indicators and receives plenty of advice, not the least on-topic of which is that you just gotta see the movie "U-571." By now it has become obvious from the repeated trip reports presented by Waldo and Jeffy that they are trying to fish their brains out this week and next, knowing full well that all fish within 150 miles of Boone will be permanently spooked during the week of May 7th due to increase alcohol and urine content in the water during that time. They also must have seen the weather reports for that week which report scattered Fortenberries. And finally, Dave LaCourse shares with ROFF the fact that "you do not need a prostate to pee straight or have sex." Which begs the question: why even bother to get your prostate checked if you can still do those two things? But seriously everyone, if you’re over 40 don’t forget to Turn-and-Cough and Jiffy-Lube once a year. And that’s the week that was. Until next time, –Steve

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Question:

Hi All on the Caribbean Travel News Group, If you have any questions about traveling or staying in Belize, I would contacted Marge Perez. She runs a travel agency at the International airport outside Belize City. Margie worked for Tropic Air for many years and knows the country better than most people. She has friends or relatives in many places in Belize. She is used by the famous Orvis Company (USA) for cordinating their customers that travel to Belize. She is on-line and will have a web site up soon. I have a good knowledge of the fly fishing in Belize if you need any help there.

Response:

I have a good knowledge of the fly fishing in Belize if you need any help there——What kind if fly fishing? In streams or in bays? What kind of fish?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi All on the Caribbean Travel News Group, If you have any questions about traveling or staying in Belize, I would contacted Marge Perez. She runs a travel agency at the International airport outside Belize City. Margie worked for Tropic Air for many years and knows the country better than most people. She has friends or relatives in many places in Belize. She is used by the famous Orvis Company (USA) for cordinating their customers that travel to Belize. She is on-line and will have a web site up soon. I have a good knowledge of the fly fishing in Belize if you need any help there.

Response:

Question:

Great site OLE! Forrest http://www.FlyFishingREVIEW.com FlyFishingREVIEW.com I have updated my flyfishing site at: http://nff.sit.no/ New and updated version of the "burning caddis" description. Try it! Ole Anders Andreassen

Before you buy.

Response:

Nice site, great pics. This is a really good job, thanks for the link. Trey Monroe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have updated my flyfishing site at: http://nff.sit.no/ New and updated version of the "burning caddis" description. Try it! Ole Anders Andreassen

Response:

I have updated my flyfishing site at: http://nff.sit.no/ New and updated version of the "burning caddis" description. Try it! Ole Anders Andreassen

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know if fishing is permitted on the Prisons property of Spring Creek???                                        Brian

The answer to this question is yes and no.  You cannot fish on the prison property where it is posted. This includes a stretch above and below the area mentioned by another poster.  He is talking about turning onto Shiloh Road at the white church and fishing the Benner Springs hatchery stretch.  There has been quite a bit of controversy over this area in the past few years. Much of the access at Benner Springs has been taken away along with the parking which used to be available.  The Fish commission says it isn’t trying to keep people from fishing there but they have taken away parking, taken to closing the gates earlier, and generally made it very difficult to enjoy. The Yes part to your question about fishing prison land…most of where you can fish between Shiloh Road and the Paradise area IS prison land.  The DEC and prison have agreements.  If you fish anywhere in this stretch, the land surrounding the stream and up the hills, on both sides, is prison land. You’ll notice signs which post for trespass and No Hunting all along here. If you stick to the public access waters you ARE fishing prison land.  Can you fish the other posted areas of prison land…not legally.  It is your choice. For all the fantastic fishing available in the open waters I don’t feel the need to take a chance at hitting the posted waters.                              Scott

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Does anyone know if fishing is permitted on the Prisons property of Spring Creek???                                         Brian —

Response:

Hi Brian,    I’ve fished on prison property near the fish hatchery below the State Trooper barracks.  I’m not sure of the name of the road but I can give you directions.  From State College head towards the Nittany Mall.  Get on Rt. 150 (Benner Pike) headed towards Bellefonte and take a left at the second Mall entrance (at the little white church).  Go down that road until you run into the prison property.  Do not take a left on Trout Road.  You’ll run into a gate and if you read the sign, they close the gate at 9:00PM. You must be out at that time, they’re pretty good about not closing the gate if they see cars parked there.  There are some big fish (16-24") in there.  E-Mail me at the Internet address below the next time you plan on fly-fishing, I try to get out everyday.  See you later.

Response:

Question:

I have an Orvis PM-10 8wt with a Ross G-4 reel and would like to gear up for a shooting head/shooting line. I’m planning to buy an xtra spool for the G-4, load up a couple hundred yards of Cortland Spectron 35lb backing, then attach the shooting line and finally shooting head. My questions are:

I do a lot of striper fishing and use shooting heads almost exclusivly. The realy nice thing is you can travel very light. I tend to grab a rod, a box of flies, some leader material, and a couple of shooting heads (floating and  sinking) and put everything in my pockets. Here are some thoughts from my experience.        1) what is the best shooting line to use for steelhead and/or          saltwater? My choices seem to be braided nylon or light level          fly lines. (i.e. in the 2-3 weight category.)

First. Everything is a compromise.  I haven’t used the braided lines, (someone told me they are very hard on your hands) but I am thinking about giving them a try. I have used "amnesia" mono line and found it to be a real pain. It tends to blow around and catch on things pretty easily (I tend not to use a shooting basket, which might solve these problems). But with mono, you sure can cast a long way and a sinking head will sink very deep. So that leaves level fly line, which I’ve been using for quite a while. The biggest advantage to fly line is it floats. I use a fast sinking shooting head quite a bit and floating shooting line makes it much easier to pick up the line for the next cast. If you do use flyline, before you start fishing, stretch it. It will lay in nice coils. Also I found that spraying a rag with some silicon and running the shooting line through it works great. But don’t silicon a sinking head. This year I also decided to mark the shooting line every ten feet with a permenant black marker. This give me some idead of how much line I have out.       2) what is the best way to attach the shooting head to the shooting          line? Do loops work well, or is a direct connection much better?

Again it’s a compromise. If you attach the shooting line directly – ie with a needle or nail knot – it will be easier to shoot the line through the guides. In theory, the shooting head should be outside the tiptop before you try to shoot any line. In practice, this is rarely the case. (BTW, if you make your own rods, use an oversize tiptop, it solves a lot of problems.) I use loops, because it makes switching shooting heads very easy. You don’t have to reel everything in and switch spools. Instead, you just unloop one head and loop on another. I haven’t used the braided loops that are available, but I probably will give them a try next year. Making loops is easy:    a. You need a razor blade, very fine thread (preferably in a bobbin),   and three kinds of glue, "Super glue", Duco Cement and Pliabond.    b. Begin by shaving the end of the fly line down to the center core for    a couple of inches.    c. Lay the shaved part back on the standing part so you have a loop of about 3/4 of a inch.    d. Stick the two parts together with the super glue and let it dry.    e. Wrap the glued part with thread and finish with whip finish, just   like a rod guide.    f. Coat the wrap with Duco Cement. Let it dry.    g. Coat that with Pliabond. I use the same three glues over a needle knot for attaching leader butt material.        3) what kinds of shooting heads are best? (i.e. the pre-made ones          available from Sci Anglers, Orvis, etc. or by cutting a section          from a double-taper flyline or some such.)

I’ve had both. If you make your own you can get two heads from one double taper, but a double taper line probably costs about twice as much as a store bought head. One advantage to making your own is you can tailor the length (and thus the weight) to match your rod. Start with a length of 35 feet or so. Attach it temporarily to the running line and try casting with it. If your rod loads well and casts easily, go ahead and finish it. If it’s not right keep trimming a bit of length. If your are making it from a double taper, it’s probably best to trim it from the rear (where it’s attached to the shooting line.)        4) should I use a shooting head sized for a 9 or 10 weight? I’ve          seen some text which seems to imply that using a size or two          larger than the rod is rated for is appropriate. Is it?

This all depends on the rod. All things considered, if you buying instead of making, you would probably do best to start with a head rated one size too large. I hope this helps — P.O. Box 409 Cambridge, MA 02140-0004

Response:

Quoting templin from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly     should I use a shooting head sized for a 9 or 10 weight? I’ve     seen some text which seems to imply that using a size or two     larger than the rod is rated for is appropriate. Let me answer your question on line weights.  I was listening to our local Southern California radio fishing talk show this morning.  Their guests were Lefty Kreh and Flip Pallot.  They are in town for the annual Marriott’s Fly Shop Flyfishing Fair.  The same question came up.  Lefty said if you are using a shooting head to use a line one weight heavier than your rod weight.   He added that if you are using a sinking line, like a HI-D to go 2 sizes heavier. Jim in Southern California

Response:

1) what is the best shooting line to use for steelhead and/or    saltwater?

I use Cortland’s 0.031" diameter running line – looks like fine fly line.  When using a shooting head setup, you’ll spend lots of time handling the line which is why I would recommend against mono or braided lines. You can find other diameter running lines, but if they’re too thin, handling is tough and the line wears too fast, and if too thick, the head won’t be as able to pull the running line out for good casting distance. 2) what is the best way to attach the shooting head to the shooting    line? Do loops work well, or is a direct connection much better?

You want some sort of loop system to allow exchanging of heads. I’ve tried a ‘double nail knot mono loop’ and a braided loop.  Either works, though I have more confidence in the mono loop.  Just use some 30lb mono.         ___        /   ___vvv The "^^^" nail knot is done first, and not pulled tight until the second "vvv" nail knot is done.  The mono going back to the second nail knot runs under the loops used in forming the first nail knot. Since the PVC cover on most fly lines can pull off the braided core, I usually like to put a knot "+" in the core and sug the nail knots up against it.    3) what kinds of shooting heads are best? (i.e. the pre-made ones      available from Sci Anglers, Orvis, etc. or by cutting a section      from a double-taper flyline or some such.)

Depends on what you’ll be fishing for.   For salmon and steelhead in Oregon, 3, 4, 5 and 6 foot sections of 850-grain Deep Water Express is the norm.    4) should I use a shooting head sized for a 9 or 10 weight? I’ve      seen some text which seems to imply that using a size or two      larger than the rod is rated for is appropriate. Is it?

Many of these setups are *not* tuned to any rod weight.  I use 8wt and 9wt rods when chucking heads, and suspect a 7wt would do. Thomas Gilg

Response:

      1) what is the best shooting line to use for steelhead and/or      saltwater? My choices seem to be braided nylon or light level

I use two kinds; an Orvis shooting Line made for the purpose and a monofile nylon line from Berkley called XL Solange in 0.50 milimeters thickness. The Orvis is good, comfortable and easy to use. The Berkley casts longer, but is harder to handle. Some of my fellow fishermen tried braided line with good luck, but I find it rough on the fingers.    2) what is the best way to attach the shooting head to the shooting      line? Do loops work well, or is a direct connection much better?

I use loops with great success. They’re easier to make and make experiments (see later) much easier. But direct connection goes smoother through the rings, and feels a little better in the cast — more directly connected, if you’ll excuse the pun. If you use mono line for shooting line, then use a real nail knot for the joint. One where the mono goes inside the fly line. If you use level line or ‘real’ shooting line, remove coating from both lines, splice in some way, and cover with aquaseal or the like.    3) what kinds of shooting heads are best? (i.e. the pre-made ones      available from Sci Anglers, Orvis, etc. or by cutting a section      from a double-taper flyline or some such.)

I always made mine from DT line a class (or even two) heavier than the classification of the rod. I cut them in half, which makes them much too heavy, but with a loop system, it’s very fast to find the right weight (that is: length) of the head. Start casting, and cut small peices of the line, until you get the right weight. It’s best to have someone familiar whith shooting heads to help you the first time, if you’ve never used a shooting head before.       4) should I use a shooting head sized for a 9 or 10 weight? I’ve      seen some text which seems to imply that using a size or two      larger than the rod is rated for is appropriate. Is it?

See above. Normally one class above will be OK. But use very inexpensive DT lines for experiments, and remember; there’s always the other half if you cut too much…. BTW: cut off most of the front taper of the half DT line. It’s not much good anyway, and a good knotted or tapered leader will transfer movement better without it. Regards Martin Joergensen Copenhagen, Denmark

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1