Question:

In today’s Oregonian there was an article about a guy fishing the Rogue River in southern Oregon, landing a 71 lb – 8 oz. Chinook on a fly this past Monday. The report said he was using 7 lb. tippet, which would make this fish a world record for that line class. When confirmed, it would also be the largest Chinook caught on a fly. The fly used was described as having; "chartreuse hackle and some rainbow mylar on a #8 hook. The fly was tied by the angler. The report didn’t say how long it took him to land it, but I would imagine it took awhile!

Response:

In today’s Oregonian there was an article about a guy fishing the Rogue River in southern Oregon, landing a 71 lb – 8 oz. Chinook on a fly this past Monday. The report said he was using 7 lb. tippet, which would make this fish a world record for that line class. When confirmed, it would also be the largest Chinook caught on a fly. The fly used was described as having; "chartreuse hackle and some rainbow mylar on a #8 hook. The fly was tied by the angler. The report didn’t say how long it took him to land it, but I would imagine it took awhile!

Bill Kiene sent me a photo of that fish. I’ll post it on ABPF in a few minutes.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In today’s Oregonian there was an article about a guy fishing the Rogue River in southern Oregon, landing a 71 lb – 8 oz. Chinook on a fly this past Monday. The report said he was using 7 lb. tippet, which would make this fish a world record for that line class. When confirmed, it would also be the largest Chinook caught on a fly. The fly used was described as having; "chartreuse hackle and some rainbow mylar on a #8 hook. The fly was tied by the angler. The report didn’t say how long it took him to land it, but I would imagine it took awhile! Bill Kiene sent me a photo of that fish. I’ll post it on ABPF in a few minutes.

Whoa. /daytripper (That there’s a whole lot of big damned salmon, sho nuff.)

Response:

Steve, You need to come to Sacto soon (before it gets to darn cold) so I can take you boating down in the Delta for stripers. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In today’s Oregonian there was an article about a guy fishing the Rogue River in southern Oregon, landing a 71 lb – 8 oz. Chinook on a fly this past Monday. The report said he was using 7 lb. tippet, which would make this fish a world record for that line class. When confirmed, it would also be the largest Chinook caught on a fly. The fly used was described as having; "chartreuse hackle and some rainbow mylar on a #8 hook. The fly was tied by the angler. The report didn’t say how long it took him to land it, but I would imagine it took awhile! Bill Kiene sent me a photo of that fish. I’ll post it on ABPF in a few minutes.

Response:

A man could feed a family of four for a week with that big sumbitch.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

Question:

I got the Champion today and had a tournament tonight, so my first ride was blasting out of the gates as my number was called.  Not a pretty sight.  I punch it and the jumped on plane then cavitated and sunk a$s end into the water. Never had a boat with a hydrofoil on it before, is this common? Ok, I eased it onto plane trimmed up the motor boat and away we go.  Get to the spot I want to start at, ok, how do I get the troll motor in the water (Its an Autopilot with cordless foot pedal and I never had one of these either).  So I start pushing buttons but nothing is happening.  So I kick the motor and it pops into the water.  Ok, now how do I steer this thing! Ok, the pedal doesn’t rock forward or backwards but it does rock side to side and the motor turns.  Has a rocker switch for continuous and another rocker switch for intermittent.  Ok, by this time I am ready to drift right into someone’s dock.  This non-cable troll motor is actually easier to use once you get use to it (but it took me about 2 hours to get fully adjusted to using it).  But in the mean time, I look at all the electronics.  I have a Lowrance X5 on the console, a Lowrance 2260 Flasher on the bow and a 400TX Hummingbird LCD.  Of course I never had any of these units either so I’m trying to learn them on the fly as I’m fishing in a tournament. I have made enough noise in this area that I decide to move to my next area. Ok, how do I get the troll motor up?  Grab the head and pull it and it turns and stores itself away.  Trim the motor down, Punch it, the boat pops out of the water instantly – cavitates and sinks as$ end into water (is this caused by that hydro foil?).  Ease it up onto plane and away I go, trim up the motor and I’m flying.  The steering is a little stiffer than I’m use to and I have to fight it to make a left.  Turns right on a dime.  Handles rough water very nice. — Craig Baugher Belleville, Michigan Website: http://gl3loomis.home.att.net/

Response:

Craig, Take that stupid hydrofoil p.o.s. off that boat, it doesn’t need it.  Please email me with specifics on Model, motor, HP, prop etc.  We’ll get that rig lined out right for you.  Every Champion made should have a 3 second hole shot without some barnyard hardware hanging off of it. Pat

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got the Champion today and had a tournament tonight, so my first ride was blasting out of the gates as my number was called.  Not a pretty sight.  I punch it and the jumped on plane then cavitated and sunk a$s end into the water. Never had a boat with a hydrofoil on it before, is this common? Ok, I eased it onto plane trimmed up the motor boat and away we go.  Get to the spot I want to start at, ok, how do I get the troll motor in the water (Its an Autopilot with cordless foot pedal and I never had one of these either).  So I start pushing buttons but nothing is happening.  So I kick the motor and it pops into the water.  Ok, now how do I steer this thing! Ok, the pedal doesn’t rock forward or backwards but it does rock side to side and the motor turns.  Has a rocker switch for continuous and another rocker switch for intermittent.  Ok, by this time I am ready to drift right into someone’s dock.  This non-cable troll motor is actually easier to use once you get use to it (but it took me about 2 hours to get fully adjusted to using it).  But in the mean time, I look at all the electronics.  I have a Lowrance X5 on the console, a Lowrance 2260 Flasher on the bow and a 400TX Hummingbird LCD.  Of course I never had any of these units either so I’m trying to learn them on the fly as I’m fishing in a tournament. I have made enough noise in this area that I decide to move to my next area. Ok, how do I get the troll motor up?  Grab the head and pull it and it turns and stores itself away.  Trim the motor down, Punch it, the boat pops out of the water instantly – cavitates and sinks as$ end into water (is this caused by that hydro foil?).  Ease it up onto plane and away I go, trim up the motor and I’m flying.  The steering is a little stiffer than I’m use to and I have to fight it to make a left.  Turns right on a dime.  Handles rough water very nice. — Craig Baugher Belleville, Michigan Website: http://gl3loomis.home.att.net/

Response:

First off.. WOW!! NICE RIG!! I am *very* envious of you .  From what I know, and it ain’t alot mind you, that sinking problem doesn’t sound right. I would recommend taking that Hydrofoil off, as I don’t know the specifics of your boat, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t need it.  I’ve seen a Champion with a 150 Johnson do a holeshot in the time it took me to go to full throttle!  Maybe try playing with your trim on your holeshot some, when the ass end starts heading into the water, start trimming your motor in, that may help.   Just out of curiosity, what model/HP is it? Good luck, and good fishin’!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got the Champion today and had a tournament tonight, so my first ride was blasting out of the gates as my number was called.  Not a pretty sight.  I punch it and the jumped on plane then cavitated and sunk a$s end into the water. Never had a boat with a hydrofoil on it before, is this common? Ok, I eased it onto plane trimmed up the motor boat and away we go.  Get to the spot I want to start at, ok, how do I get the troll motor in the water (Its an Autopilot with cordless foot pedal and I never had one of these either).  So I start pushing buttons but nothing is happening.  So I kick the motor and it pops into the water.  Ok, now how do I steer this thing! Ok, the pedal doesn’t rock forward or backwards but it does rock side to side and the motor turns.  Has a rocker switch for continuous and another rocker switch for intermittent.  Ok, by this time I am ready to drift right into someone’s dock.  This non-cable troll motor is actually easier to use once you get use to it (but it took me about 2 hours to get fully adjusted to using it).  But in the mean time, I look at all the electronics.  I have a Lowrance X5 on the console, a Lowrance 2260 Flasher on the bow and a 400TX Hummingbird LCD.  Of course I never had any of these units either so I’m trying to learn them on the fly as I’m fishing in a tournament. I have made enough noise in this area that I decide to move to my next area. Ok, how do I get the troll motor up?  Grab the head and pull it and it turns and stores itself away.  Trim the motor down, Punch it, the boat pops out of the water instantly – cavitates and sinks as$ end into water (is this caused by that hydro foil?).  Ease it up onto plane and away I go, trim up the motor and I’m flying.  The steering is a little stiffer than I’m use to and I have to fight it to make a left.  Turns right on a dime.  Handles rough water very nice. — Craig Baugher Belleville, Michigan Website: http://gl3loomis.home.att.net/

Response:

ROFL! Wish all of my competition was so prepared! We’ve all been there. Want to get the new toys goin ASAP. You didn’t mention if you also got plauged with the new boat jinx? Any fish? Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got the Champion today and had a tournament tonight, so my first ride was blasting out of the gates as my number was called.  Not a pretty sight.  I punch it and the jumped on plane then cavitated and sunk a$s end into the water. Never had a boat with a hydrofoil on it before, is this common? Ok, I eased it onto plane trimmed up the motor boat and away we go.  Get to the spot I want to start at, ok, how do I get the troll motor in the water (Its an Autopilot with cordless foot pedal and I never had one of these either).  So I start pushing buttons but nothing is happening.  So I kick the motor and it pops into the water.  Ok, now how do I steer this thing! Ok, the pedal doesn’t rock forward or backwards but it does rock side to side and the motor turns.  Has a rocker switch for continuous and another rocker switch for intermittent.  Ok, by this time I am ready to drift right into someone’s dock.  This non-cable troll motor is actually easier to use once you get use to it (but it took me about 2 hours to get fully adjusted to using it).  But in the mean time, I look at all the electronics.  I have a Lowrance X5 on the console, a Lowrance 2260 Flasher on the bow and a 400TX Hummingbird LCD.  Of course I never had any of these units either so I’m trying to learn them on the fly as I’m fishing in a tournament. I have made enough noise in this area that I decide to move to my next area. Ok, how do I get the troll motor up?  Grab the head and pull it and it turns and stores itself away.  Trim the motor down, Punch it, the boat pops out of the water instantly – cavitates and sinks as$ end into water (is this caused by that hydro foil?).  Ease it up onto plane and away I go, trim up the motor and I’m flying.  The steering is a little stiffer than I’m use to and I have to fight it to make a left.  Turns right on a dime.  Handles rough water very nice. — Craig Baugher Belleville, Michigan Website: http://gl3loomis.home.att.net/

Response:

Kill the hydrofoil Craig, it’s keeping you down.  You’ll see the difference instantly.  Why would anyone put that stupid thing on the Champion? Warren2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got the Champion today and had a tournament tonight, so my first ride was blasting out of the gates as my number was called.  Not a pretty sight.  I punch it and the jumped on plane then cavitated and sunk a$s end into the water. Never had a boat with a hydrofoil on it before, is this common? Ok, I eased it onto plane trimmed up the motor boat and away we go.  Get to the spot I want to start at, ok, how do I get the troll motor in the water (Its an Autopilot with cordless foot pedal and I never had one of these either).  So I start pushing buttons but nothing is happening.  So I kick the motor and it pops into the water.  Ok, now how do I steer this thing! Ok, the pedal doesn’t rock forward or backwards but it does rock side to side and the motor turns.  Has a rocker switch for continuous and another rocker switch for intermittent.  Ok, by this time I am ready to drift right into someone’s dock.  This non-cable troll motor is actually easier to use once you get use to it (but it took me about 2 hours to get fully adjusted to using it).  But in the mean time, I look at all the electronics.  I have a Lowrance X5 on the console, a Lowrance 2260 Flasher on the bow and a 400TX Hummingbird LCD.  Of course I never had any of these units either so I’m trying to learn them on the fly as I’m fishing in a tournament. I have made enough noise in this area that I decide to move to my next area. Ok, how do I get the troll motor up?  Grab the head and pull it and it turns and stores itself away.  Trim the motor down, Punch it, the boat pops out of the water instantly – cavitates and sinks as$ end into water (is this caused by that hydro foil?).  Ease it up onto plane and away I go, trim up the motor and I’m flying.  The steering is a little stiffer than I’m use to and I have to fight it to make a left.  Turns right on a dime.  Handles rough water very nice. — Craig Baugher Belleville, Michigan Website: http://gl3loomis.home.att.net/

Response:

Did you catch any fish? Lakeland Florida

Response:

If I was fishing a Musky tournament I would have won.  But not one bass, not even a dink! — Craig Baugher Belleville, Michigan Website: http://gl3loomis.home.att.net/

Response:

Question:

Are there any websites that show step-by-step PICTURES or better yet mpeg movie showing the double haul in action???

http://www.mysportsguru.com/CDA/Article/0,1093,1-1007-1672-2007,00.html is one. — Charlie…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul.         a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear.                 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster.         b)  The turn over of the wrist.         c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul.

Are there any websites that show step-by-step PICTURES or better yet mpeg movie showing the double haul in action??? Thanks in advance, dave

Response:

I believe you misspelled pathology. Wolfgang

As with your foot in mouth posts?  A Pathobiology fact noted by many Roffians regarding your off subject howlings? hummmm?  Casting is a pathology quirk, eh? guilty. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

______  You’re a hard working man Bill and deserve the best in all things.  Plan on meeting me in Montana this year if you can find a ten day slot.  My last stint at the Mayo Clinic and after hours in the operating room, is a wonderful success.  I’m indeed a fortunate man. Again, Happy New Year Bill. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi George and the rest of you wonderful ROFFers out there, I am here in Nor Cal in my old boxer shorts with a cup of coffee. I have to go into the shop this morning after a couple of days off. Had a nice Christmas with the family. I hope you are all feeling strong and healthy. I hope 2001 is a great year for you all. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b)  The turn over of the wrist. c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

– Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Steve is a marvelous teacher and instructor.   I can’t count the number of times he would watch me cast at a show and point out some new quirk I had picked up.

Big deal, we’ve been pointing out your quirks – old and new – for years. Not much of a challenge, either…

Response:

I believe you misspelled pathology. Wolfgang always glad to be of service

Response:

Tony, Don’t forget that loop size also determines how far the cast will go. Ernie "Tony Bishop" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Tony Bishop

Response:

Hello, I chanced upon a reference to a scientific paper which might be of interest to those technically inclined: John Robson The Physics of Flycasting American Journal of Physics, 1990 I made a note of it but have not looked for it in a library and read it (yet) so I don’t know if it is relevant to your discussion. Regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

Response:

There’s other things than line speed that effect distance, such as aerodynamics. e.g.  It’s easy to cast a number 20 GRHE than a bundel of flank feathers.  You also have differences in  changes in Center of Gravity (tight loop vs. open loop) to name a few.  Also the forward and backward motion of the shoulder plays a big part. Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b)  The turn over of the wrist. c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

Hi George and the rest of you wonderful ROFFers out there, I am here in Nor Cal in my old boxer shorts with a cup of coffee. I have to go into the shop this morning after a couple of days off. Had a nice Christmas with the family. I hope you are all feeling strong and healthy. I hope 2001 is a great year for you all. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul. a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear. 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster. b)  The turn over of the wrist. c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist. In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

that has more casting mistakes than any of them and frankly, shouldn’t be teaching casting until he gets his errors corrected by a master. However; Lefty is very popular but it is no excuse to promote incorrect casting techniques.  I like Lefty, but there is a limit to condoning the public’s jaundiced eye.  Much better teachers are probably everyone else that does so in the industry but the best of the lot, in my opinion is D.Swisher.  Another is E. Schwiebert if and when he is available, but the best in the world is Steve Rajif.  This is the man Kreh all fly casting teachers should see on occasion.  Steve is a marvelous teacher and instructor.  I can’t count the number of times he would watch me cast at a show and point out some new quirk I had picked up. By the way, there is going to be a FLY FISHING SHOW IN DENVER this coming January, on the 6th & 7th.  I plan to be there with a booth.   — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

Response:

George, I pretty much agree with all you said, except the very first point, I rthink it should read: There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast, it is called **line acceleration** the rate of change in line speed. Loading the rod, using haul(s), wrist snaps, etc. evrything you and others have listed, all should contribute to increasing line acceleration during the casting stroke. If the line is not accelerating at the end of the casting stroke and when the rod unloads, the line will immediately begin to fall. I find that once a client understands feeling the weight on the backcast, and then adds the little tweaks on the way to the end of the casting stroke, the quicker they learn to maiximise distance and accuracy. Just by the by, I rarely use a double haul, only occasionally using a single haul, and that is when using 9 weights in the big rivers with big flies or heavy nymphs, or in the saltwater. And leaving my modesty behind I can toss out most of a flyline when I have to, without hauling. I go along with Lefty Kreh who said something along the lines of, hauling and such too often teaches someone to cast their mistakes further. — Tony Bishop  New Zealand http://bishfish.co.nz

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I have a break here today, in between Morning Presents and a beautiful turkey with all the fixings soon to be presented to many friends and relatives.  It is clear here today, crisp and bright as geese fly up and down the river looking for fresh graze. From the Book of Gink: AXIOMS 1)  There is only one thing that determines how far anyone can cast.  It is called, "Line Speed."  The greater the line speed the farther one can cast. 2)  Fly lines, like rubber bands, stretch.  As long as this slack remains (WITHIN Fly lines) while fly casting, energy is required to remove it.  That which is required to do so do NOT increase the line speed until the stretch is removed in all fly lines.  The tighter the line, the greater the line speed can be applied into a tightly taunt line. 3)  The greatest power that can be applied to a fly line is in the potential energy stored in the butt section of all fly rods.  Getting to that power is the question.  How do we do that? 4)  Fly rods are also fulcrums.  If one half a fly rod, from the tip to the mid section is bent during the forward cast, any applied power beyond these forward power curves is not unlike a long pole under a big rock with the fulcrum moved CLOSER to the weight.  In this case, the butt section! 5)  There are three forward motions that must be in unison for the double haul.         a)  The rod hand that moves forward, toward the front of the ear.                 1) This is the move that removes line slack behind the caster.         b)  The turn over of the wrist.         c)  The haul that occurs DURING the instant the wrist starts to turn over DURING the simultaneous forward thrust of the fist.   In other words, the hand comes forward and as you pass your ear, the thumb starts to turn over, driving the bend of the rod farther into the butt at the same instant the haul is applied which drives all the power farther into the butt which collects more power, bending the rod even more. Here is where a micro-second is required to hold onto the fly line and not releasing it just then.  The haul hand comes down and time is allowed in the fly rod to increase the line speed.  As soon as the tip of the fly rod is about forward, the haul hand releases the fly line . . . and you let her fly! HINT:  Keep the tip higher than you normally do for maximum distance. There is more, but this is as simple as I can make it right now.  One demo is worth a thousand words. But!  Let us all remember that fly lines are really weak rubber bands and stretching a fly line out first is paramount so one can make it as tight as possible before you can really increase fly line speed properly. Hope some of this helps, and yes, there is a difference between the single haul and the double haul. Merry Christmas. — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html     fine bamboo flyrods & blanks

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Question:

These trout can be very selective though, if they are rising to "Benson and Hedges", "Camels" may be useless, and indeed on occasion only a "John Player Special" will do the trick,  reduced strength cigarettes have also been found wanting. Apparently the material used in the filter makes them float too low in the surface film, and even trout are not stupid enough to believe that soggy cigarette butts  are emerging aquatics. Untipped cigarettes may often prove effective, although they tend to disintegrate rapidly.  If you want a real lunker, then try throwing Havana stubs attached to a very long leader off a suitable bridge. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but

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You guys have missed it altogether.  This fish are addicted!.  They obviously can’t smoke underwater so they do the next best thing and inhale the butts.  Imagine the high a lttle trout gets from the average sized butt?  I really doing think somebody should be suing a tobacco company about this.  After all, these fish could get really sick and if you eat them, you’re getting second hand smoke (or is that third?) Can anybody say, "Class action?" Peter

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A few years ago, in April (it snowed that day) I caught a 3.5 lb Blagdon trout that a spherical glstening ball in its stomach.  On unwrapping it I could just discern some gold and the words ‘can damage your health’.  So it would seem. Gordon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These trout can be very selective though, if they are rising to "Benson and Hedges", "Camels" may be useless, and indeed on occasion only a "John Player Special" will do the trick,  reduced strength cigarettes have also been found wanting. Apparently the material used in the filter makes them float too low in the surface film, and even trout are not stupid enough to believe that soggy cigarette butts  are emerging aquatics. Untipped cigarettes may often prove effective, although they tend to disintegrate rapidly.  If you want a real lunker, then try throwing Havana stubs attached to a very long leader off a suitable bridge. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but

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You guys have missed it altogether.  This fish are addicted!.  They obviously can’t smoke underwater so they do the next best thing and inhale the butts.  Imagine the high a lttle trout gets from the average sized butt?  I really doing think somebody should be suing a tobacco company about this.  After all, these fish could get really sick and if you eat them, you’re getting second hand smoke (or is that third?) Can anybody say, "Class action?"

One of the more amusing urban legends I’ve heard lately was an explanation of why so many deer get run over on the highway. After eating cigarette butts that people fling from their car windows, they become addicted to the nicotine, and hang out along the highways looking for more; sooner or later, they get hit by a car. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.

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Trout guts are fun. Not to be Ted Nugent about it, or anything, but I’ve learned a lot from trout guts. For example, I’ve learned that trout eat many more terrestrials than I thought possible. I’ve learned that trout on some streams often eat ladybugs and that smallish red humpies are excellent imitators for ladybugs. Importantly, I’ve also learned that my wife has no real appreciation for the disassembly of trout guts on certain kitchen counters. Also, she doesn’t particularly care for my habit of bringing chunks’o bugs from trout stomachs to show her while she’s painting landscapes. Important lessons, one and all. Today’s lesson, however, was particularly instructive in light of the recent discussion hereabouts on how much and how fast your average trout learns. Now, I don’t keep all that many trout, but when I do, I definitely like to see what the heck they’ve been up to, dining-table wise. Occasionally, if the surroundings support it, I even keep a largish one. So, it was with particular interest that I cleaned an 18 incher tonight, eager to see on what such a large (and presumably, smarter than average) trout might be dining. Tiny tricos? Evanescent midges? Taco supremes? In addition to a couple ladybugs, the first two things out of this particular stomach were caddis larvae. Complete caddis larvae — casings and all. In this particular river, the casings average about 3/4 inch to an inch in length, cylindrical, made out of the usual caddis larva materials of gravel and small sticks. Probing further, the next item on our trutta post mortem appeared to be yet another caddis larva — same length, same diameter, same…waitasec. Most caddis larvae don’t rebound when you press on them. Most caddis larvae aren’t fibrous. Most caddis larvae don’t read "Benson & Hedges" on the side. Yup — it was a cigarette butt. In addition to mocking whatever pretensions I might have had about fishing on a "pristine" stream, this event also gave new credence to that episode in, "The River Why," where Gus concocts a fly made out of hot dog wrappers and cigarette butts to fool the wily old bass in the town pond (’scuse me if my memory isn’t totally clear on that passage…think I’m getting the gist of it nonethemenos). It also made me question the advisability of imagining too much intelligence on the part of your average trout brain. Maybe sometimes the answer is just to throw something big, ugly, and nicotine-stained out there and hope for the best. So, anyway, the long and short of it is that I’ve started smoking. Besides having heard good things about the habit in general, I also need a ready source for new inventions at the vise. Look for a gold-ribbed Camel’s butt at a fly swap near you soon . tight lines and full ashtrays, – sid

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Question:

: Over fishing (in the ocean),  infestations of parasites exacerbated : by sea-farming in the estuaries, global warming  and siltation from : sheep overgrazing and peat cutting all were mentioned as possible : culprits. The peat  cutting, which causes terrible erosion, looked like : the main culprit to me.   I don’t know the answer, but I believe we can rule out global warming. Might be a problem in the future, say 20 years or more, but not now.  At least I don’t see how the problem as it is today is ruining the population.   Are you sure the fish aren’t just staying out at sea becasue they are afraid of bombs?  It is time for Ireland to solve their problems.  Let it go. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I just got back from two weeks in Northwest Ireland. Salmon and Sea Trout are in trouble there, as they are in most places.  Everybody was up in arms about it, and everybody had a different idea. The peat  cutting, which causes terrible erosion, looked like the main culprit to me.  

Doubt if you’ll find too many people agreeing with you. (‘cept for the netters and fish-farmers of course)  :-)) Sea-trout and salmon stocks were fine in the past when peat cutting was just as extensive. It makes the water look bad, but the fish don’t seem to mind too much. Most interesting thing is to see how well stocks recover in any particular river system as soon as estuary or sea-loch salmon farming is stopped for a while. Its almost instantaneous. Too much netting at sea, and overfishing for the Krill/shrimps/sand-eels the fish live on is the popular choice for the overall drop in numbers. If you you want to fish Eire/UK for salmon or sea-trout, come soon  - and don’t be too hopeful. You still seem to have some fine fishing in USA. I know you’ve had your problems, but I wish we’d looked after ours half as well. Seems to me the pressures seem to be increasing all over tho’. Sometimes the only way to take my mind off it is to go fishing. Tight lines Ian D

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It is time for Ireland to solve their problems.  Let it go.

Unfortunately, the Irish are not just damaging their own fisheries – they are also netting huge numbers of salmon passing the west coast of Ireland on their way back from the North Atlantic to Wales, Southern England, France, Spain.  They take far more Welsh fish, for example, than are caught in Wales by both rods and nets..  Political pressure has so far achieved little.  And it is said that this netting, much of which is illegal, is a big source of funds for the IRA..  :-( — Phil Jones South Wales

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Salmon and Sea Trout are in trouble there, as they are in most places.  Everybody was up in arms about it, and everybody had a different idea.  Signs along many streams pleaded "Save our Sea Trout."

That’s the name of a very worthwhile organisation which has been campaigning for several years against the inshore salmon farming which has wrecked the sea trout runs.  The damage is done by massive infestations of sea lice.  The evidence is overwhelming. Send SOS a contribution and ask for some of their newsletters.  SOS, PO Box 69, Galway, EIRE. Over fishing (in the ocean),  infestations of parasites exacerbated by sea-farming in the estuaries, global warming  and siltation from sheep overgrazing and peat cutting all were mentioned as possible culprits. The peat  cutting, which causes terrible erosion, looked like the main culprit to me.  There is a lot of water in Ireland, and a lot of bedrock too. Good spawning gravel is hard to find, and what little there is looked brown, silted and peaty to me….at least where I fished, in the Connemarra district.

You forgot agricultural pollution of the spawning streams and lakes, commercial gravel extraction from river beds, over-fishing (in the rivers and lakes), etc.. — Phil Jones

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I just got back from two weeks in Northwest Ireland. Salmon and Sea Trout are in trouble there, as they are in most places.  Everybody was up in arms about it, and everybody had a different idea.  Signs along many streams pleaded "Save our Sea Trout." Over fishing (in the ocean),  infestations of parasites exacerbated by sea-farming in the estuaries, global warming  and siltation from sheep overgrazing and peat cutting all were mentioned as possible culprits. The peat  cutting, which causes terrible erosion, looked like the main culprit to me.  There is a lot of water in Ireland, and a lot of bedrock too. Good spawning gravel is hard to find, and what little there is looked brown, silted and peaty to me….at least where I fished, in the Connemarra district. Still, there are a few fish left, and it (all of Ireland) is a very beautiful place.   The Irish people–in particular–were the highlight of the trip. DIBBLING:      I learned a new fishing technique on one of the big Loughs: dibbling.  Local fly fishermen apparently dibble in rivers too, for both salmon and sea trout.   I’m looking forward to trying it back here, in Montana.  What is it? Put a relatively heavy wet fly on the end of the leader.  Then, maybe two feet back up the leader, put a bushy dry fly on a 6" dropper.  Cast across stream and pick up the rod tip until the dry fly is out of the water. Then bob the rod tip to make the dryfly look like a dancing caddis fly. On Lough Corrib, brown trout to 10 lbs smack’em like candy. Anybody ever try dibbliing over hear? Last note:       They have beautiful jungle cock necks for less than $75.00 in Dublin. I almost bought one.  But I managed to resist. Too bad nobody raises jungle cock.  I’d buy it for sure, if they weren’t dissapearing……like the sea trout? — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  * http://www.avicom.net/sandy                   */

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Question:

I maybe taking a job in Deerfield, IL (Lake county) and will probably live in Northern Illinois or Souther Wisconsin.  Can Anyone tell me what to expect in the way of Fishing.  I am currently Living in CT where there is fishing aplenty.  Any info would be greatly appreciated. Jon

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I maybe taking a job in Deerfield, IL (Lake county) and will probably live in Northern Illinois or Souther Wisconsin.  Can Anyone tell me what to expect in the way of Fishing.

The only fly fishing in Northern Illinois is for bass, crappie, blue gill, and other pan fish.  At times it can be very good. Wisconsin is another story.  South-west Wisconsin is loaded with some of the finest spring creeks around.  They are teaming with browns, rainbows, and brookies.  South-east all along Lake Michigan has many streams with runs of steelhead, and salmon. There is a lot of great fly fishing in Wisconsin. Joel Axelrad

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Question:

[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Tim, I would recommend putting a skylight filter on your lens. If you bump the front of your lens or scratch it, you have ruined a cheap filter and not an expensive lens. I’ve prevented expensive damage to two or three lenses this way. Just put it on and leave it. Your exposure won’t be noticably affected. Jim

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Hi Moe,

I only bring my camera when I’m hiking and fishing into a pretty, isolated area so it just goes into my daypack with everything else.  The pack stays on the bank when I go into the water.  It works out fine, and I haven’t lost the pack yet.  I don’t wear a vest, though, so I’m not sure how that would work. Dave

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Actually may soften the image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out!

Q: Do photographers still use Vaseline for the same effect? A: Not when they’re using a condom.  The petroleum weakens them, and they break. Be careful out there. Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a   ruggedized waterproof camera ? NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,       -tgades I’ve got the same camera – a great piece of work. To bad there’s no built-in lens cap for it, but it’s 99.9999% on the way to being the perfect camera for fishing. Nice macro feature for close-ups. Pentax has a new model (IQ 110?) for more money – with a very wide angle lens for panorama shots, but this one gives up on the water- resistance feature, I think. I also carry my camera in a plastic zip-lock baggie (my wallet’s got a baggie too) just to be sure it’ll survive my next unplanned wetdown. If I’m with someone else, they learn how to shoot a picture with it in about 10 seconds.

I tried the inexpensive point and shoot.  My photos were fine, but my ex-girlfriend couldn’t take a picture of me, with my fish, without cutting my head off.  I’ve easily got 20 pictures of me with fish that aren’t up to quality for the album. At least she had other attributes… I seem to recall Outer Banks used to sell a camera bag, made for several different makes.  Essentially a ziplock attached to a lens filter. Anyone ever use one?  Probably not good for underwater shots, but I bet it’d hold up through one of my early morning baths. — Mark N. Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address.   On a side note, my grandfather aways told me you couldn’t catch fish until you got water in you waders.  I’ve ammended that to you can’t catch trophy fish until you’ve ruined the camera.  His maxim still holds true though.

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(But, being prone to being prone…

Priceless ! — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful.

Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ?   — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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DENNIS VICK responds: Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just

great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. And if you use the colored ones, It creates Great visual filter effects, Right?  Now, if they only made polorized ones for under water shots..;)

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[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

The better models in almost all camera makers lines are very shock resistant. Nikon F series, Pentax K series, Olympus OM, Cannon F series. If you keep your gear in a well padded and designed bag it will take a drop from body height without any problem. Zoom lenses can be the exception I have had them break when I rolled a bag of gear down a stairs. They can’t handle a blow head on. If you are really rough or travel a log get a hard case. I have run over my hard case with my truck without damage…….woops. If you do dunk a high quality slr equipment in a river get it to a camera repair person as soon as possible. If you dunk it good in saltwater look for a new camera. In using your camera. Remove from well padded case put strap over neck then make your pictures, change your film etc. Never set your gear on the trunk of your car. If you need a clean surface set your gear on the driver’s side hood. If you are hiking around rocks and need quick access to your camera keep it around your neck with the lens facing your body. This is photojournalist style. If you have been working in a dusty area use canned air to remove dust. I don’t care where you put your lens cap but make a habbit of putting it in the same place every time. All the Best, Michael Smith

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for ….etc…. — TimW Halfordian Golfer      Tim – I carry a small 35mm auto-everything camera with me, and I protect it by putting it in a sturdy ziplock bag. Just before you close the last little corner of the ziplock, wrap your lips around it tightly and suck out the air in the bag; then quickly close the seal. This sort of molds to bag to the camera – you can even take a decent shot with the bag still on the camera in desperate circumstances. It has worked for me for many, many years.     In rereading this I see I have left myself wide open to your brand of humor, Tim. Try to restrain yourself, I am a respectable old lady of 66 [but still fishing!].      

Thank goodness you realize it as the harmless humor that it is …life is too short not to laugh…laugh loud and laugh often… Thanks very much for the tip and I will not take advantage of the obvious cheap shot that you left me and my devils workshop…   — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc.

You either have a really small camera or a really big asdfj NO CARRIER                                                 John Fereira

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DD Actually may soften the DD image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out! DD DD Q: Do photographers still use Vaseline for the same effect? DD DD A: Not when they’re using a condom.  The petroleum weakens them, and they DD break. Be careful out there. Oh man, I knew I forgot something important in the original post, and now I remember it… Be certain to buy the UNLUBRICATED version of the condom for use with your cameras! Now for the photography question. YES, wedding photographers still do this on occasion, but usually on a screw on filter instead of the actual lense, at least after their first try. I have also made many different special effects in the past by fooling with things on the filter. You can create a split-image rangefinder of sorts by a solid black stripe right down the middle of your filter for instance. Doesn’t show on the final image at all. Filters may be purchased with scored perpendicular lines on the called "starfire" filters which create incredble star highlights from candles, sunlight reflections off the water, etc. Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

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[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ?

It probably depends on the model.  My Canon has been on every backpacking trip I’ve been on in the past couple years and accompanies me on most fishing trips.  So far, I haven’t managed to even put a scratch on it.  If it is raining, I can take it out, take a picture, whipe the rain off, and put it back in the case with no harm done.  One of these times, I’m sure I’ll take a nasty tumble and kill it, but so far so good.   Later,      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. Good Lord, I hate to see the reponse from this one…but I AM SERIOUS. BTW, be sure to buy a good name brand. Leaks in these things can be pretty devastating. I swear, I am serious, Try it…….really! These things will blow up to 6′ diameter. No problem with a little camera. Stretch the material over the lense part so its close to clear. Why am I explaining this to you anyway, didn’t your parents tell you anything! Teachers, clergy, planned parenthood? Oh heck, just have fun. It works!

Interesting… You shoot through the stretched latex ???? I can really see explaining the condoms to my wife as I head out the door for a weeks fishing in Idaho… "Really honey, they are, uh, for my, uh, camera…!!!" This is a family area ?   Scary, as you can be in alt.things.even.your.mama.never.told.you in about 3 mouse clicks… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Moe, I have a Nikon FG and a Nikon F70, both of which cause me to cring a little when I bring them close to the water. I enjoy the artistic element of using an SLR too much to justify getting a waterproof auto camera. I have thus run into your problem. So far I have handled it by only taking the camera out of the car for dedicated photo shoots. I try to avoid wading with the camera if possible. When I’m done I get the rod out again and enjoy the fishing.  Last year my sis’ accompanied me on a trip and I got her to take some photos of me from the bank while I was wading. I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Paul

I’ll second the sticking with the SLR.  I have a Canon Elan.  I went to G.I. Joe’s and got a small (6"x7"x2") canvas bag.  It’s not waterproof, but it keeps the rain out.  It’ll hold the body and one lens, detached of course.  I wrap them both in ziplock freezer bags and throw those little water absorption pads that come with most electronic equipment in with them (you know, the ones that advise not eating them).  Most electonic stores will give them away from the packaging of their floor models. I attach it to my vest or backpack with a carbeaner(SP?), but if the wading looks too risky I’ll leave it on the bank of the river.  Yes, I tend to fish in VERY isolated areas, do not try this in more crowded areas. My $0.02,      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

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Hi. but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for ….etc…. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

     Tim – I carry a small 35mm auto-everything camera with me, and I protect it by putting it in a sturdy ziplock bag. Just before you close the last little corner of the ziplock, wrap your lips around it tightly and suck out the air in the bag; then quickly close the seal. This sort of molds to bag to the camera – you can even take a decent shot with the bag still on the camera in desperate circumstances. It has worked for me for many, many years.     In rereading this I see I have left myself wide open to your brand of humor, Tim. Try to restrain yourself, I am a respectable old lady of 66 [but still fishing!].       Louise Scharrenberg

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BD Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great BD protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can sti BD use the buttons, etc. BD BD You either have a really small camera or a really big No big thing Roger.  Without getting too detailed, I have actually seen these things blown up to 5′ diameters and paper macheyed(sp?) in the old "phyche shops" of the 60’s. Pretty scary under black lights with flourescent posters and incense burning… Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

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MS Interesting… MS MS You shoot through the stretched latex ???? Yep! You stretch it over the lense until it becomes pretty clear. Don’t have the technical reason for you, but cameras tend to ignore things that are very close to the lense. I have shot right thorough chain link fences for instance with no noticeable affect provided I was close enough. Actually may soften the image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out! MS I can really see explaining the condoms to my wife as I head out the MS door for a weeks fishing in Idaho… MS MS "Really honey, they are, uh, for my, uh, camera…!!!" Reminds of a story where the hunter bitches out his wife for not packing his socks after a three week hunting trip.. "But I did pack your socks honey!" "Where the he** did you pack them then?" "In the case with your rifle!" Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

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Hi. I recently acquired my first 35mmSLR, and I really, really enjoy learning about and using it.  It is my sincere hope that I can capture some of the joys of flyfishing on film as it satisfies me.  I also want to try and document some of what I feel is very wrong in our sport, particularly overcrowding on the river and wounded or sickly fish that should be killed… but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. As it turns out, I had the opportunity to get some great shots of my dear friend flyfishing, but as it also turned out, I did a little uninentional snorkelling on saturday AM too…I would have gotten the camera wet, at the very least. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time. Tia, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a    ruggedized waterproof camera ?   NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,         -tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I recently acquired my first 35mmSLR, and I really, really enjoy learning about and using it……. How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. As it turns out, I had the opportunity to get some great shots of my dear friend flyfishing, but as it also turned out, I did a little uninentional snorkelling on saturday AM too…I would have gotten the camera wet, at the very least. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time.

Over the last twenty-five years I’ve had different cameras, SLR’s, range finders and one fixed lens. Sailing the ocean, mountaineering in unforgiving places, and stream side require different kind of cammera, NOT. Your camera, like your fly rod, is just a tool with limitations. What I discovered is, to take really wonderful shots use a SLR and buy every lens and gadget you find to help you at your task. Forget about fishing you won’t have time. You’ll be checking your light meter, checking back lighting, comparing gray scale zones, experimenting with how far you can push the ASA. And coming full circle when you move to a new location. Man that sounds like a lot of work and it really is. You could empty out you fishing vest and fill it full of camera stuff. Bingo, you are an official professional photographer or at least look like one. But for my money I went for the range finder type. One lens and one filter and that’s it. No fuss, good pic’s, with limitations. I just wanted to record what I saw, where I’d been, and what I’d experience. Just didn’t want to build a monument around it. I recommend these three range finder cameras, Reolli 35S (older german made w/big lens), Nikon Action Touch (really water proof to 12 feet), and an old Cannon Cannonete which is my current clicker. If my camera fell into bad grace I would not feel to badly because I mostly find used cameras that others have traded in to buy SLR’s. There’s a good steady supply, you just have to look for the deals. They do make waterproof bags that will keep your cameras dry, mostly used by white water rafters. But I hate cumbersome bags and am willing to take the chance on dousing the camera. Maybe if your fascination of fishing pictures really develops you could start taking pictures underwater of trout behavior and taking the fly. Yes, like flyfishing, it’s just another disease. When you get the darkroom going I could use some flytying gear, hint, hint, hint, since you will be up to your elbows in developer and fixer. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. Good Lord, I hate to see the reponse from this one…but I AM SERIOUS. BTW, be sure to buy a good name brand. Leaks in these things can be pretty devastating. I swear, I am serious, Try it…….really! These things will blow up to 6′ diameter. No problem with a little camera. Stretch the material over the lense part so its close to clear. Why am I explaining this to you anyway, didn’t your parents tell you anything! Teachers, clergy, planned parenthood? Oh heck, just have fun. It works! Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a   ruggedized waterproof camera ?   NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,    -tgades

I’ve got the same camera – a great piece of work. To bad there’s no built-in lens cap for it, but it’s 99.9999% on the way to being the perfect camera for fishing. Nice macro feature for close-ups. Pentax has a new model (IQ 110?) for more money – with a very wide angle lens for panorama shots, but this one gives up on the water- resistance feature, I think. I also carry my camera in a plastic zip-lock baggie (my wallet’s got a baggie too) just to be sure it’ll survive my next unplanned wetdown. If I’m with someone else, they learn how to shoot a picture with it in about 10 seconds. Don B. Wishful collector of Gillums and Dickersons – owner of Montague, H-I and Heddons.

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I, too, rarely carry my SLR when fishing. And I often regret it when I get back prints from my point and shoot that are incorrectly exposed. (But, being prone to being prone, it’s the only way to go for me). Does anyone have any ideas for an inexpensive (<$150) auto-focus that allows for manual exposure setting? John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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there a couple of nice "photo backpacks" on the market. the one i got has a space for water or snacks or whatever. although it is not 100% waterproof – it will keep my expensive gear dry during brief recreational swims. i have decided that the inconvenience of the extra weight on my back is outweighed by the potential for great photos. p.s.   olympus makes a very small camera (will fit in almost any vest pocket) that is weatherproof. i believe they cost around $200.   greg

Response:

Hi Moe, I have a Nikon FG and a Nikon F70, both of which cause me to cring a little when I bring them close to the water. I enjoy the artistic element of using an SLR too much to justify getting a waterproof auto camera. I have thus run into your problem. So far I have handled it by only taking the camera out of the car for dedicated photo shoots. I try to avoid wading with the camera if possible. When I’m done I get the rod out again and enjoy the fishing.  Last year my sis’ accompanied me on a trip and I got her to take some photos of me from the bank while I was wading. I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time. Tia, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Question:

Humor is the Best Antidote A recent opinion/commentary by Salem, Oregon newspaper reporter Henry Miller tersely contended among other things, that fly angling and spinfishing with casting bubble and a fly, are one and the same.   Inspired by Miller’s profound ignorance of flyfishing and it’s centuries-old heritage, I hearby present The Henry Miller, a new genre of fly angling humor: "Henry Miller is so dumb…" …he thinks fly dressing is made by Kraft and sold at Waremart. …he thinks a streamer is someone who fishes…what else?  Streams. …he thinks a roll cast is tossing bread to the ducks on Mill Creek. …he thinks Korkers are steelhead baits. …he thinks a double haul is two truck loads of top soil. …he thinks a dry fly is a no-drinks America West flight. …he thinks Mustad 9672 is a television program. …he thinks stripping line is a single’s bar come-on. …he thinks a riffle is a 30.06. …he thinks pocket water is a very small canteen. …he thinks herl means projectile regurgitation. …he thinks Sage is a kitchen spice. …he thinks a Royal Coachman is Prince Charles’ chauffeur. …he thinks fly casting refers to actor Jeff Goldblum. …he thinks a blood knot is a marriage of cousins. …he thinks 4X refers to a brand of condom. …he thinks dubbing is a lip sink. …he thinks The Big Horn is taking "cuts" in a movie line. …he thinks a fly rod is an insect’s reproductive appendage. …he thinks rod wraps are corporal punishment. …he thinks Orvis refers to a mouth, nose, or ear. …he thinks mending a line means equivocation. …he thinks a graphite rod is a pencil. …he thinks Haig-Brown is a fly pattern. …he thinks catch and release is a sin. …he thinks fish wrapper doesn’t refer to his column. Send your Henry Millers to: Jon Hazen – List Keeper Jon Hazen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Humor is the Best Antidote A recent opinion/commentary by Salem, Oregon newspaper reporter Henry Miller tersely contended among other things, that fly angling and spinfishing with casting bubble and a fly, are one and the same. Inspired by Miller’s profound ignorance of flyfishing and it’s centuries-old heritage, I hearby present The Henry Miller, a new genre of fly angling humor: "Henry Miller is so dumb…" …he thinks fly dressing is made by Kraft and sold at Waremart. …he thinks a streamer is someone who fishes…what else?  Streams. …he thinks a roll cast is tossing bread to the ducks on Mill Creek. …he thinks Korkers are steelhead baits. …he thinks a double haul is two truck loads of top soil. …he thinks a dry fly is a no-drinks America West flight. …he thinks Mustad 9672 is a television program. …he thinks stripping line is a single’s bar come-on. …he thinks a riffle is a 30.06. …he thinks pocket water is a very small canteen. …he thinks herl means projectile regurgitation. …he thinks Sage is a kitchen spice. …he thinks a Royal Coachman is Prince Charles’ chauffeur. …he thinks fly casting refers to actor Jeff Goldblum. …he thinks a blood knot is a marriage of cousins. …he thinks 4X refers to a brand of condom. …he thinks dubbing is a lip sink. …he thinks The Big Horn is taking "cuts" in a movie line. …he thinks a fly rod is an insect’s reproductive appendage. …he thinks rod wraps are corporal punishment. …he thinks Orvis refers to a mouth, nose, or ear. …he thinks mending a line means equivocation. …he thinks a graphite rod is a pencil. …he thinks Haig-Brown is a fly pattern. …he thinks catch and release is a sin. …he thinks fish wrapper doesn’t refer to his column.

…he thinks steelhead is the ammo for a 30.06. …he thinks nymph is the synonym for nymphet. …he thinks A River Runs Through It is Chicago’s motto. …he thinks a leader is Bill or Newt (take your pick!). Musconet

Response:

Humor is the Best Antidote A recent opinion/commentary by Salem, Oregon newspaper reporter Henry Miller tersely contended among other things, that fly angling and spinfishing with casting bubble and a fly, are one and the same.  

BEING A RESIDENT OF OREGON, I THOUGHT I’D ADVISE YOU THAT MR. MILLER’S USE OF THE TERM FLY ANGLING IS CORRECT IN IT’S COMPARISON TO SPIN FISHING WITH A FLY AND BUBBLE. HERE ON THE NORTH UMPQUA WE HAVE 35 MILES OF FLY ANGLING ONLY WATER. AND YES, FISHING WITH A FLY AND BUBBLE AS WELL AS WITH CONVENTIONAL FLYFISHING TACKLE IS ALLOWED. IT IS "FLY ANGLING" NOT "FLYFISHING" PERHAPS YOUR HUMOR MIGHT BE REDIRECTED! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Inspired by Miller’s profound ignorance of flyfishing and it’s centuries-old heritage, I hearby present The Henry Miller, a new genre of fly angling humor: "Henry Miller is so dumb…" …he thinks fly dressing is made by Kraft and sold at Waremart. …he thinks a streamer is someone who fishes…what else?  Streams. …he thinks a roll cast is tossing bread to the ducks on Mill Creek. …he thinks Korkers are steelhead baits. …he thinks a double haul is two truck loads of top soil. …he thinks a dry fly is a no-drinks America West flight. …he thinks Mustad 9672 is a television program. …he thinks stripping line is a single’s bar come-on. …he thinks a riffle is a 30.06. …he thinks pocket water is a very small canteen. …he thinks herl means projectile regurgitation. …he thinks Sage is a kitchen spice. …he thinks a Royal Coachman is Prince Charles’ chauffeur. …he thinks fly casting refers to actor Jeff Goldblum. …he thinks a blood knot is a marriage of cousins. …he thinks 4X refers to a brand of condom. …he thinks dubbing is a lip sink. …he thinks The Big Horn is taking "cuts" in a movie line. …he thinks a fly rod is an insect’s reproductive appendage. …he thinks rod wraps are corporal punishment. …he thinks Orvis refers to a mouth, nose, or ear. …he thinks mending a line means equivocation. …he thinks a graphite rod is a pencil. …he thinks Haig-Brown is a fly pattern. …he thinks catch and release is a sin. …he thinks fish wrapper doesn’t refer to his column. Send your Henry Millers to: Jon Hazen – List Keeper Jon Hazen

Response:

Humor is the Best Antidote A recent opinion/commentary by Salem, Oregon newspaper reporter Henry Miller tersely contended among other things, that fly angling and spinfishing with casting bubble and a fly, are one and the same.  

Menard) spat: BEING A RESIDENT OF OREGON, I THOUGHT I’D ADVISE YOU THAT MR. MILLER’S USE OF THE TERM FLY ANGLING IS CORRECT IN IT’S COMPARISON TO SPIN FISHING WITH A FLY AND BUBBLE. HERE ON THE NORTH UMPQUA WE HAVE 35 MILES OF FLY ANGLING ONLY WATER. AND YES, FISHING WITH A FLY AND BUBBLE AS WELL AS WITH CONVENTIONAL FLYFISHING TACKLE IS ALLOWED. IT IS "FLY ANGLING" NOT "FLYFISHING" PERHAPS YOUR HUMOR MIGHT BE REDIRECTED!

Oh my god…a knitpicker…without a sense of humor or a lowercase keyboard.   "Better get the gaff and the bat for this one."  :) Inspired by Miller’s profound ignorance of flyfishing and it’s centuries-old heritage, I hearby present The Henry Miller, a new genre of fly angling humor: "Henry Miller is so dumb…" …he thinks The Big Horn is taking "cuts" in a movie long line. …he thinks fish wrapper doesn’t refer to his column.

Jon Hazen

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Question:

Could anyone tell me what you think is the least expensive 3 weight rod?  I would also be willing to build it.  I’ve looked at the Sage 386 LL as well as some different G-Loomis rods and come to the conclusion that I don’t want or need a fast high tech rod for my small stream pack trips and would settle for a less expensive one.  

Response:

I strongly recommend that you contact Eric at East Branch Rods. 1-800-337- EROD.  They make a sweet, moderate action rods in wts 1 thru 5.  A finished 8" 3wt 2pc is $235, a kit is $165 and a blank is $80.  Good luck.  (And, no, I’m not affiliated with them in any way.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could anyone tell me what you think is the least expensive 3 weight rod? I would also be willing to build it.  I’ve looked at the Sage 386 LL as well as some different G-Loomis rods and come to the conclusion that I don’t want or need a fast high tech rod for my small stream pack trips and would settle for a less expensive one.  

Response:

I have a St. Croix Imperial 7′ 3/4 which cost about $95.  I really like the way it casts, though its cosmetics could be better

Response:

I strongly recommend that you contact Eric at East Branch Rods. 1-800-337- EROD.  They make a sweet, moderate action rods in wts 1 thru 5.  A finished 8" 3wt 2pc is $235, a kit is $165 and a blank is $80.  Good luck. (And, no, I’m not affiliated with them in any way.) Could anyone tell me what you think is the least expensive 3 weight rod? I would also be willing to build it.  I’ve looked at the Sage 386 LL as well as some different G-Loomis rods and come to the conclusion that I don’t want or need a fast high tech rod for my small stream pack trips and would settle for a less expensive one.  

Diawa makes a 3-4 wt. 7′6" 5 pc. pack rod that sells for $200.00 CDN. I don’t know what it would retail for in the U.S. but it is cheap!  I have the 4-5 wt. version of the same rod and it has an excellent dry fly action, very cane like.  Great for short to medium casting distances.  Over the years I’ve owned Sage, Orvis, Thomas & Thomas, and Fisher rods.  The Diawa is no slouch. Peter

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writes: Could anyone tell me what you think is the least expensive 3 weight rod? I would also be willing to build it.  I’ve looked at the Sage 386 LL as well as some different G-Loomis rods and come to the conclusion that I don’t want or need a fast high tech rod for my small stream pack trips and would settle for a less expensive one.

Curtis, You can get the Orvis Rocky Mountain version of their "Tippet" rod (7 1/2′ 3wt.) with the 25 yr. no-fault guarantee for $230.  This is the same blank as the premium version without the fancy cosmetics.  You can buy the blank for $135.  It is a full flex (slow action) rod for delicate presentations and good protection of fine tippets.  If you want a faster rod (medium-fast action) that will cast better in the wind look at the HLS RM "Trico" ($240).  Not quite as easy on the tippets but definitely better in the wind.  Unfortunately, no blank is currently available for the Trico.                                                  Check it out,                                                         Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Schools Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

I have several 3 weight G. Loomis rods available for sale. Please These are IMX from 8 1/2′ through 9′. Also offering fly casting classes in WA and OR. I am a certified FFF instructor and past Orvis Asst.School Director and have worked with over 5,000 students. Please E. Mail for

Response:

Question:

1.  Most junk mailers think they’re doing a public service. Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. [...] Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.

That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage. So, while I applaud your efforts, and I’m concerned at how much crap goes on at public expense, I must remind you that *advertising is not evil*! It is a perfectly valid method of informing the public of one’s goods and services.

You’ve made quite a leap here. The poster was complaining about JUNK MAIL, not about advertising in general. I don’t care if people advertise; I just wish they would do so in a way which doesn’t directly contribute to our pollution problem (i.e. when I "throw away" or disregard a TV commercial, I don’t have to pay the trash man to haul it away, and it takes up no space at the town dump. A case could be made that commercials cause noise pollution, but I won’t be the one to make it here…) JUNK MAIL SUX!! — "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That’s their stock price today."        - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.

Response:

ONE MANS JUNK IS ANOTHER MANS TREASURE! Don’t get personal opinions in the way of having an open mind about BOTH the GOOD AND BAD, that these things can do.  This applies in any and all facets of life.  HAVE an opinion, it is your RESPONSIBILITY, but don’t hamper other peoples as well in trying to keep your own.  Who knows, one day you might change your mind. (Isn’t life great) I personally LIKE *SOME* of the junk mail I have gotten over the years, and have gotten a few good deals in that way.  On the other hand, most of it IS junk, but doesn’t this relationship apply to all of life and not just glossy paper with a postage paid stamp on it. (THINK ABOUT IT) I am sure most people have gotten some kind of use out of some of the JM they have recieved. (PLEASE NO FLAMES, I am just expressing some of my thoughts, good or bad) Christopher Walton

Response:

That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage.

Hey, without junk mail, what would fill the inside back cover of Consumer Reports?  (the Selling It column) —      .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.

Response:

Anyone who’s worked in the advertising field (as I have) knows that the purpose of advertising is to enforce purchasing decisions already made.  Advertising is pretty weak at persuading people to make new buying decisions, great at making people feel glad about the ones they’ve already made.  Junk mail works best with people who enjoy receiving junk mail and who have responded to it in the past.  It has little benefit for those who resist its blandishments.  My feeling is, if you want it, you should be able to affirmatively request it; and if you don’t, it shouldn’t get sent. Bob Jacobson

Response:

Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  

Don’t forget the guy in Washington State that takes pride in being able to heat his house for the winter solely by burning junk mail.  Not exactly pollution free, because it screws up the catalytic converter on wood stoves, but a neat story anyways.

Response:

Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  The rest just goes into the trash (eh, recycling bin!).  My biggest complaint is that it’s the same damn set of coupons every week.  If you don’t happen to like Pizza Hut, too bad.  But once in a while, you’ll get Pollo Loco coupons (which our family *does* like), or other values, which is worth an occasional sort. Pollo Loco? "Crazy Chicken"? Oh, sounds delicious…

It is!  Have you tried it?  Instead of frying the bird, they char-broil it.  There is a whole host of imitators now! Actually, ARA runs a mexican fast food place at the University called "El pollo grande" (the big chicken)…

Probably an imitator.  Like they say, "the sincerest form of flattery …" The average American sees and ignores more than 2000 advertising mes- sages every day.  You oughta be used to it by now. But just because we’re used to something doesn’t mean we have to take it.  "You oughta be used to tax increases by now, so don’t complain"

Slightly different … you can *not* ignore a tax increase!  Trust me, I’ve tried! Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.  *It is true* that without advertising, you simply *would not know* about the very existance of the products you buy and use.  The companies that produce those products would go out of busi- ness.  Then you (or me, or others like us) would be out of work. Yeah! If food manufacturers and grocery stores didn’t advertise, we wouldn’t buy any food! (Hey, wait a minute…)

You’re ignoring a fundamental problem, even with grocery stores. Grocery stores litter the landscape like McDonald’s’es.  How is one going to get you to drive an extra ten minutes to come to *their* store if they don’t tell you they exist? Why should they pay tens of kilo-bucks to advertise on TV to the entire area, when for a mere centa-buck or two they can target just the neigh- borhood?  Then add a few money-saving coupons as extra incentive, and viola!  Customers show up! Word about products is accomplished through word of mouth and "Consumer Reports".

Actually, advertisers have a lot of respect for both of these methods. Word-of-Mouth is naturally considered superior, since it’s an objective opinion from a trusted friend, relative, or neighbor. But you’ll go out of business waiting for Word-of-Mouth to get started! Word-of-Mouth, albeit the most sought after and reliable, happens to be the *slowest* form of advertising in existance!  So you put up some billboards, send out some flyers, print up some coupons, and get some people to come in and *try the product*.  Then, if your product is good, these experimenters can get the ol’ Word-of-Mouth Ball rolling. As for "Consumer Reports," I can only say that they fall into the cate- gory of "Caveot Emptor", like everything else.  I have experienced, and have talked to people who have experienced, that very frequently if you are *intimately familiar with the products* that you *disagree* with what they say about them.  If you can’t trust them on things you know about, how can you trust them for things you *don’t* know about? (Altho, I would trust most of their auto surveys.  This information is not based on their employees’ possibly biased or un-informed opinions, but rather on surveys from their readers.) My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products! — "We’re sorry, but the reality you have dialed is no longer in service. Please check the value of pi, or see your SysOp for assistance." UUCP: uunet!{hplabs,fiuggi,dhw68k,pyramid}!felix!asylvain

Response:

My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products!

All Hail, Conspicuous Waste!  Long live, Throw Away Society! Bill

Response:

1.  *CALL* the DMA’s Mail Preference Service at their secret, unlisted number (212)768-7277 and ask to be listed in their Suppression File. Stay on the phone while the computer operator types your address in. If you leave a message they may just discard it. Call them a month later and ask if you’re listed.  

I called just now – the operator told me that she couldn’t enter my information over the phone – she told me to either write in requesting this or she could send me a form.  I asked for the form; I hope that it gets a better response than the letters did.         -= iain <=-     "a sysadmin kinda guy"

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%8.  When they ask for my name and address at Radio Shack, I tell them %firmly but politely, "For the purpose of your data base, my name is Joe %Tandy and my address is GPO, Fort Worth, Texas."  Radio Shack is one of %the few large junk mailers who can’t be bothered to maintain a suppression %file. I’ve been told one great thing about Tandy but I can’t confirm it.  Can anyone? Tandy/Radio Shack does NOT sell its mailing list and from what I’ve heard they have the largest in the States. %(c) 1991, Cameron Spitzer, San Jose, California Great article, Cameron!  Thank you! Zap — Zap Savage, Savage Research, Inc. "There’s a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like a fool."         -Steven Wright "It’ll never fly, Orville."         -Wilbur Wright

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