Question:

My friends on FF at are trying to describe a clave  to folks in NZ. Thought you might enjoy although I recognize no Roffians there V Lets be frank Richard American clave fishing is a misnomer.

        i love the smell of envy in the morning…         wayno, the first clavemeister

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My friends on FF at are trying to describe a clave  to folks in NZ. Thought you might enjoy although I recognize no Roffians there V Lets be frank Richard American clave fishing is a misnomer.  I have yet to see a decent fish on post Clave website photo opportunity postings, By decent I mean anything over 3 inches. Lots of shots of folk enjoying themselves eating & drinking & telling lies. In various stages of unshaven dishevelment. & thats just the mud wrestlers (I withdraw yr honour) But not fish in hand. Nor are there multitudinous tales of C&R. Which leads me to believe that any fishing is an accidental byproduct of the weekend.  - There appear to be 2 styles of American Clave fishing when a misguided attempt is made to put fly on or in water  - The raft hunt.  - The gang fish. The Raft Hunt The former arises because, for some unknown reason, many claves are scheduled to coincide with college holidays. The end result is that the occasional aberrant Clavee that actually crawls to the water , rod in hand, post stomach pump, post detox, post the shock of the early morning visit by the chicken skin toupee’d or the stuffed pig  - usually casts to a river full of tubing & rafting pissed as a rat students. No fish about mind you, but lots of movement on the river. Once it is known that the hills & waters are alive with rafters & tubers & other alcoholics, the scene then degenerates into the pissed as a rat clavees pulling their deckchairs or Motahomes up on the river bank &  cans in hands, (22 in the cooler  underneath the seat), they spend many happy hours yelling encouragement to the passing tubers & rafters. Many of whom are minimally clad. Particularly the female ones. Which brings out the best in male Clavees. Hence their  boisterous but friendly exhortations to – "Get yr gear off!!" Such is the elegance  and sophistication of American clave fishing. Gang fishing The other, more pernicious style, is known as the gang fish. Of this I have seen evidence on the Internet. Photos of a Canadian angler midstream wielding a blotched & overused purple rod with fish drawings on the butt, attempting delicate dry fly placement whilst 15 Clavees in various stages of intoxication or food poisoning stand on the bank & offer advice. Loudly. Some also chunder for him.  & as he stands midstream he is no doubt hoping that if they must that at least they  divest themselves downstream of his 3 wt elegant efforts as opposed to creating an upstream tide of Ball Buster, which he knows, just knows in his heart, will dissolve his waders should he be unfortunate enough to be caught in the flow. "There it is ", they  scream, jumping up and down on the bank in excitement pointing to a small twig stuck on the bottom of the waters. "No, no, cast closer into the tree!!"  they exhort & so it goes on. Now is this fair  to the fish? Is it fair to the angler? What chance does he have with 15 experts with a bell curve distribution of states of intoxication offering advice. In very loud voices. That make the ground tremble & the trees sway. But they are wearing the T shirt. So its ok. Usually it prevails until one of the happily pissed falls into the water & discovers that the fish have long since departed. At which juncture the tribe repairs to the campsite to consume more Ball Buster & Bourbon by way of commiseration with fishless purple rod. Now, I have missed out Socialising as a stand alone topic, but I trust you will agree with me that an American Clave is merely an excuse for participants to socialise to the max. & I think this is a good thing. It is de facto fish conservation. & there is a lot of this because Claves have a habit of attracting rain. So attendees get to huddle together for comfort & what can one do in those circumstances but eat, drink & tell lies.  Outrageous untruths. Veritable supercharged bull dust. All about fishing None of which is actually undertaken. In fact most, if not all Clavees would not even notice if they left their rods at home.<g GS NZ We seem to be missing the women who bring their own batteries in case sex is needed. Indfian Joe

OMG — this is hilarious!!  Thanks — you made my day!! Sandy

Response:

I’ve been away from the vise for a while, & I must be getting rusty.   Tied two flies today & snipped off my tying thread three times.   I hate when that happens.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

I’ve been away from the vise for a while, & I must be getting rusty.   Tied two flies today & snipped off my tying thread three times.   I hate when that happens.  :-) Joe F.

Greetings:   Well Joe, you’re not alone.  Every Fall, around November or so when I start spending more time indoors, it takes me a while to get back "into it."  I’m a total fumblefingers.  Just out of habit, I usually tie flys by the dozen.  So for example if I tie a dozen #14 Adams, I end up throwing two or three away in disgust.  After a few sessions at the bench, I seem to get over it (thankfully!) I snip off the tying thread, I snip off the wings, I poke myself when I reach up to grab the beer and the scissors are still in my hand – (I tell ya’ it’s a good thing I have to wear glasses when tying now days!)  :-/   What helps me a little is to tie the larger and simpler patterns I need first, then move on the small and more complex ones as I get "warmed up" again.  Lastly, when I’ve got everything I _think_ I need tied up for the coming season, I experiment with new patterns.   Of course, it’s not _just_ the tying skills that need refreshing, rather it’s the combination of related, simultaneous activities.  In my case, those include one or more of the following: 1)    Drinking beer 2)    Watching sporting events with one eye. 3)    Petting the lap cat (who remains blissfully unaware of how dangerous I can       be with a small pair of small sharp scissors on my fingers!)   Bottom Line:  Multi-tasking can be both messy and dangerous.  Happy tying season.   Cheers,  -Mark

Response:

I’ve been away from the vise for a while, & I must be getting rusty.   Tied two flies today & snipped off my tying thread three times.   I hate when that happens.  :-)

Use a sharp single-edge razor instead of scissors and that’ll happen a lot less…

Response:

My friends on FF at are trying to describe a clave  to folks in NZ. Thought you might enjoy although I recognize no Roffians there V Lets be frank Richard American clave fishing is a misnomer.  I have yet to see a decent fish on post Clave website photo opportunity postings, By decent I mean anything over 3 inches. Lots of shots of folk enjoying themselves eating & drinking & telling lies. In various stages of unshaven dishevelment. & thats just the mud wrestlers (I withdraw yr honour) But not fish in hand. Nor are there multitudinous tales of C&R. Which leads me to believe that any fishing is an accidental byproduct of the weekend.  - There appear to be 2 styles of American Clave fishing when a misguided attempt is made to put fly on or in water  - The raft hunt.  - The gang fish. The Raft Hunt The former arises because, for some unknown reason, many claves are scheduled to coincide with college holidays. The end result is that the occasional aberrant Clavee that actually crawls to the water , rod in hand, post stomach pump, post detox, post the shock of the early morning visit by the chicken skin toupee’d or the stuffed pig  - usually casts to a river full of tubing & rafting pissed as a rat students. No fish about mind you, but lots of movement on the river. Once it is known that the hills & waters are alive with rafters & tubers & other alcoholics, the scene then degenerates into the pissed as a rat clavees pulling their deckchairs or Motahomes up on the river bank &  cans in hands, (22 in the cooler  underneath the seat), they spend many happy hours yelling encouragement to the passing tubers & rafters. Many of whom are minimally clad. Particularly the female ones. Which brings out the best in male Clavees. Hence their  boisterous but friendly exhortations to – "Get yr gear off!!" Such is the elegance  and sophistication of American clave fishing. Gang fishing The other, more pernicious style, is known as the gang fish. Of this I have seen evidence on the Internet. Photos of a Canadian angler midstream wielding a blotched & overused  purple rod with fish drawings on the butt, attempting delicate dry fly placement whilst 15 Clavees in various stages of intoxication or food poisoning stand on the bank & offer advice. Loudly. Some also chunder for him.  & as he stands midstream he is no doubt hoping that if they must that at least they  divest themselves downstream of his 3 wt elegant efforts as opposed to creating an upstream tide of Ball Buster, which he knows, just knows in his heart, will dissolve his waders should he be unfortunate enough to be caught in the flow. "There it is ", they  scream, jumping up and down on the bank in excitement pointing to a small twig stuck on the bottom of the waters. "No, no, cast closer into the tree!!"  they exhort & so it goes on. Now is this fair  to the fish? Is it fair to the angler? What chance does he have with 15 experts with a bell curve distribution of states of intoxication offering advice. In very loud voices. That make the ground tremble & the trees sway. But they are wearing the T shirt. So its ok. Usually it prevails until one of the happily pissed falls into the water & discovers that the fish have long since departed. At which juncture the tribe repairs to the campsite to consume more Ball Buster & Bourbon by way of commiseration with fishless purple rod. Now, I have missed out Socialising as a stand alone topic, but I trust you will agree with me that an American Clave is merely an excuse for participants to socialise to the max. & I think this is a good thing. It is de facto fish conservation. & there is a lot of this because Claves have a habit of attracting rain. So attendees get to huddle together for comfort & what can one do in those circumstances but eat, drink & tell lies.  Outrageous untruths. Veritable supercharged bull dust. All about fishing None of which is actually undertaken. In fact most, if not all Clavees would not even notice if they left their rods at home.<g GS NZ We seem to be missing the women who bring their own batteries in case sex is needed. Indfian Joe

Response:

Question:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

The other night at terminal 2 Heathrow the last flights of the day were abnormally busy. The queue for the non  European passport holders was taking about 90 to 120 minutes to get through, and consisted of a mix of all nationalities. I happened to be in the immigration hall and stayed to monitor the queue. On five occasions I was approached by a person coming from an area between Canada and Mexico and the conversation went along similar lines. "Are you in charge here", "No and I’m nothing to do with the immigration service" where upon I was given a mouthful of abuse on how to run things and one person went as far a spitting on me. While these examples of how a certain nationality behaves when it travels abroad was going on I kept looking at a rather tall gentleman towards the back of the queue who seemed vaguely familiar. It wasn’t until after he had left politely wishing us a good evening that I realised it was a very well known Aussie tennis player, who now doubt had he asked would have been fast tracked but he didn’t and just waited with everyone. Seems the Aussies can behave a lot better than certain others. — Lansbury LHR(T2) www.uk-air.net

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

Really ??? JT: agreed LOL DuHasse! risking a lil less endowment by the dork dictionary ROFL

Response:

 I will definitely fly QANTAS next time…peace, quiet, kids kept under control, not staring into the balding head of the person in front whilst trying to eat lunch….definitely sounds like my sort of airline.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Quite! sounds like the usual ‘family from hell’ who cannot control children or dicipline them or keep them quiet, why the hell should we suffer because of their unruly behaviour, Good old Qantas staff,  we need a few more of them around in this day and age of unruly parents and kids. martin

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Well known fact in airline circles, the reason that Qantas has a higher number of male -well built flight attendants on the Asia/London routes is to get the ozzies well inebriated on their beer before Singapore, and then they sleep the way to London without much more bother, those that do make it, are well dealt with by the *heavies* on board.

QF male FA’s are well – known in gay circles for being *very* cute.  Dating one is a "catch"…. — Best Greg gregorymorrowatmsndotcom

Response:

I’ve long thought that now smoking is banned on almost all carriers that it is long past time that children and their unruly parents were sat at the back of the cabin.

I have been seated across the aisle from a baby and even right next to a baby on another flight (bulkkead, middle section). All were very long flights (10+ hours). And none were a real problem. In the case of the baby across the aisle, I remember it being entertaining in the morning because the baby was really cute and trying to grab passengers waiting in line to go to the bathroom. It was entertaining. Perhaps I have been lucky, and I realise that perhaps some babies are noiser than others, but I doubt that a baby would cry for 10 hours nonstop. For shorter flights though where a significant portion of the flight is the descent, I guess one could state that the baby bcried most of the way.

Response:

five occasions I was approached by a person coming from an area between Canada and Mexico and the conversation went along similar lines. "Are you in charge here",

In all fairness to the folks between canada and mexico, there are some of them who are nice educated tourists. The problem with those is that by their nature, you do not notice them. And if you only notice the loud impolite ones, then you do get a very bad image from the tourists of that country. Seems the Aussies can behave a lot better than certain others.

I think that Kiwis would disagree with that statement, especially when they refer to Sydneysiders. Does the expression "loud and brash" ring a bell ? Every country has bad tourists. But I agree that people from certain countries expects to be treated like kings and don’t accept that folks do things differently in different parts of the world. And those tend to stand out. But when you think about it, Parisians should be thankful of McDonalds and EuroDisney. Those tourists would tend to go to McDonalds, thus enabling good restaurants in Paris to remain free of such tourists

Response:

I’ve long thought that now smoking is banned on almost all carriers that it is long past time that children and their unruly parents were sat at the back of the cabin. I’ve never thought it alright to have someone else’s brat inflicted on adults for any amount of time, let alone a long haul flight. It’s even worse when you get one in the premium cabins from where in my opinion anyone under the age of 16 ought to be banned! For several years at check-in I’ve stated that I don’t mind where I sit as long as there are no children in the adjoining rows, I know a few people who now do the same – maybe the airlines will listen!

I find that when parents, who really have no business being parents, allow their children to run amok and laugh as the little shits pester people, change their attitude rather quickly when they hear someone say "If someone doesn’t get these little cunts under control they’re going to be short a few kids" and the kids are miraculously whisked away (they suddenly remember that they are parents and have a job to do). Maybe it’s not the politest of ways to handle such a situation, but hey, it’s not polite to inflict your kids on other people either.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Quite! sounds like the usual ‘family from hell’ who cannot control children or dicipline them or keep them quiet, why the hell should we suffer because of their unruly behaviour, Good old Qantas staff,  we need a few more of them around in this day and age of unruly parents and kids. martin

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved). Quiet and well-behaved when you have had two complaints already?!!! I DON’T THINK SO MATE! You’re just a wee bit delusional there. I’ve had too many experiences with children sitting next to me that finally I’ve decided to have the ‘no thanks, no more children next to me’. All the worse experiences have been there from this little girl who wanted to go the toilet screaming her head off when we were about to land (BA Madrid-London), to a group of four children taking all the middle seats and since I was flying alone I had to be seated next to them while they played seats switching UNTIL finally this little brat (oh how  children are cursed by one rotten apple) spilled his orange juice all over me while I was fucking sleeping (BA/QA codeshare Sydney-London) . Nah in this regard, keep your fucking children well-behaved. Especially in long flights. And rest assured I won’t be taking any of my children on any long flights until they reach their teen years. Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. LOL

I’ve long thought that now smoking is banned on almost all carriers that it is long past time that children and their unruly parents were sat at the back of the cabin. I’ve never thought it alright to have someone else’s brat inflicted on adults for any amount of time, let alone a long haul flight. It’s even worse when you get one in the premium cabins from where in my opinion anyone under the age of 16 ought to be banned! For several years at check-in I’ve stated that I don’t mind where I sit as long as there are no children in the adjoining rows, I know a few people who now do the same – maybe the airlines will listen! Pete.

Response:

on an Aussie woman

I think you mean "in". The answer is probably … average… for an Australian.  ;) D.

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Well known fact in airline circles, the reason that Qantas has a higher number of male -well built flight attendants on the Asia/London routes is to get the ozzies well inebriated on their beer before Singapore, and then they sleep the way to London without much more bother, those that do make it, are well dealt with by the *heavies* on board. martin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

says… I must admit that I have done the trip from the UK a few times and the Quantas service was not the best.We normally fly Singapore.

(Craig Welch impression on) Pity.  You may want to try Qantas instead. (Craig Welch impression off)

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him. So how big is the average dick on an Aussie woman?

Youre gay!

Response:

Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him. So how big is the average dick on an Aussie woman?

Our women aren’t like the women you’re used to, they don’t have dicks, and we like it that way!

Response:

Quite! sounds like the usual ‘family from hell’ who cannot control children or dicipline them or keep them quiet, why the hell should we suffer because of their unruly behaviour, Good old Qantas staff,  we need a few more of them around in this day and age of unruly parents and kids. martin

It sounds like a Troll to me, and not a very good one. Herdy.

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

So how big is the average dick on an Aussie woman?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Reminds me of the words of Charles Luckman: "The trouble with America is that there are far too many wide open spaces surrounded by teeth."

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course. Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

One of the main reasons I moved from the UK to Adelaide,South Australia was due to the people and their attitude. I suppose the lousy weather and cost of living does make a lot of Brits miserable – but there are many good un’s. I have never felt so welcome as when in Australia , people are so welcoming and helpful ( just started fishing and I have had loads of offers to teach me ). Perhaps the people who complain about Aussies and Brits should mix with them a little more. I must admit that I have done the trip from the UK a few times and the Quantas service was not the best.We normally fly Singapore. Russell — — auSEElife Run by migrants -for migrants Lot 11 Penneys Rise,Onkaparinga Hills,SA 5163 ICQ 119580733, Yahoo Messenger:russ1926,Fax +61 8 8186 1538

Response:

seem ur kids must be a right snob maybe ..view it from the other viewpoint of pax .. most kids can be quiet and stuff but maybe ur wasnt? look outside the circle… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you expect when you take kids on a plane.  Most people want to have a QUIET relaxing flight. Not have screaming bloody kids jumping up and down infront of them. You people with kids should for once in your lives consider that a lot of people dont actually like kids and find them rather annoying. You must have just picked the two worst lots of flights then cos I can tell you Qantas is on of Aus’s best airlines. My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Q

Response:

seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).

Quiet and well-behaved when you have had two complaints already?!!! I DON’T THINK SO MATE! You’re just a wee bit delusional there. I’ve had too many experiences with children sitting next to me that finally I’ve decided to have the ‘no thanks, no more children next to me’. All the worse experiences have been there from this little girl who wanted to go the toilet screaming her head off when we were about to land (BA Madrid-London), to a group of four children taking all the middle seats and since I was flying alone I had to be seated next to them while they played seats switching UNTIL finally this little brat (oh how  children are cursed by one rotten apple) spilled his orange juice all over me while I was fucking sleeping (BA/QA codeshare Sydney-London) . Nah in this regard, keep your fucking children well-behaved. Especially in long flights. And rest assured I won’t be taking any of my children on any long flights until they reach their teen years. Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

LOL

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Don’t mind JT, he’s just bitter because he has a little dick and Aussie women laugh at him.

Response:

What do you expect when you take kids on a plane.  Most people want to have a QUIET relaxing flight. Not have screaming bloody kids jumping up and down infront of them. You people with kids should for once in your lives consider that a lot of people dont actually like kids and find them rather annoying. You must have just picked the two worst lots of flights then cos I can tell you Qantas is on of Aus’s best airlines. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Response:

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Well, well … the gospel according to something that calls itself

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie

Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My husband, son, and I just got back from Australia.  We flew Los Angeles to Sydney and back on Qantas, as well as several domestic flights with them inside Australia.  I had always heard that Qantas had great service, which is why I was shocked at how poor it was.  Flight attendants were invariably rude. Service was efficient but cold and impersonal.  Twice (on two separate flights) the passengers behind complained about our reclined seats.  Each time the flight attendant came and barked an order at us to raise the seats.  They must hate children because on one of the flights an old man sitting in front turned around and yelled at my son to shut up, and on the return from Sydney to L.A. another old woman complained to the flight attendant about him and the flight attendant came over and ordered us to keep our child quiet and still (he is 9 and quiet well behaved).  On all flights they were extremely neurotic about the carryons too.  All in all it was a horrible experience.  All the more so when you consider that we’re used to flying in the U.S. where service is supposed to be so bad.  All I can say is after this experience I have a new respect U.S. airlines. Marie Sounds like you met the australians…the nastiest people on the face of the earth.  After the brits of course.

Know all the Brits then do you? well Thanks for tarring us all with the same – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

….Describe how to get non-blocking routing through a toriodal interconnect fabric of any dimension.

Phhht!  Too easy.  Get a bigger hammer.      :) Wolfgang no charge for this one

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*snip patent info*    Is the toxicity something we should be concerned with?

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*snip patent info*    Is the toxicity something we should be concerned with?

Anything with mineral oil in it is toxic.  If you drink mineral oil for instance, you will die, probably quite horribly.  Chucking even small amounts of mineral oil into the environment is a very bad thing to do. You may remember fairly recent scandals, especially in Italy, where Olive oil was "stretched" with mineral oil. Many people died horribly, others lost their sight, and had various other nasty things happen to them. Mineral oil is also a contact poison, and may cause dermatitis and other allergic reactions. Some products produced by the ethoxylation of Nonyl Phenol, Glycerine, and various other substances are used among other things as very high grade surgical soap. Eating this will cause severe and uncontrollable vomiting, will damage the stomach, throat, etc, and depending on the other ingredients may also be toxic. Chemical analyses are available for all the substances listed in the patent. Some are toxic, some are not. Quite a few are environmental pollutants ( Long chain, non bio-degradable molecules). Ethoxylated substances change their characteristics and properties quite radically as a result of polymerisation.  Phenol for instance is an extremely dangerous and potent poison in its raw state.  It would be necessary to read all the chemical  and property analyses of the substances concerned in order to determine the toxicity of any mixture based on them. If silica is added to the stuff, this implies that it is finely ground. When dry, ground silica dust is extremely dangerous, and is number one on the list of carcinogens.  In a wet mixture it is probably relatively harmless. Not to put to fine a point on it, I would not use the stuff. TL MC

Response:

This is Ethene ( Common name Ethylene)  C2H4 The symbol above is the most common way of writing an ethylene molecule, known as a "monomer".  When polymerised this gives Polythene ( Poly Etyhlene)  which is a common thermoplastic. When combined with oxygen, it gives EO2  which is Ethylene Oxide, a highly reactive substance, which is a primary ingredient in the processes used to produce the ingredients of the stuff you sell, Gink and Xink.

On a lighter note, one of my favorite "vanity plates" to date was a simple sedan with the license plate C2H5OH (or something close to that, I can’t remember now).   It took me a while, but I eventually surmised the owner’s name was Ethel. Joe F.

Response:

On a lighter note, one of my favorite "vanity plates" to date was a simple sedan with the license plate C2H5OH (or something close to that, I can’t remember now).   It took me a while, but I eventually surmised the owner’s name was Ethel.

That would be just C2H5. — Charlie…

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I would ask you all to refrain from answering this until Mr Gehrke does so. I have my reasons.

Might be too late now though.

Response:

—- It’s quite interesting how G alludes that Mike C’s posts are derogatory

towards US citizens.  I assume that this is supposed to drum up support for his "case". —- our envy of Mike Connor’s reputation and his considerable contribution to the world of flyfishing is obvious. —- Padishar Creel — George, do some actual research before you post so-called facts…it will save you some embarrassment later.

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 George, do some actual research before you post so-called facts…it will save you some embarrassment later.

Diagnosis, Doctor?

Response:

 George, do some actual research before you post so-called facts…it will save you some embarrassment later. Diagnosis, Doctor?

—– Hmmm, as I stroke my Jungian beard, I would say the diagnosis would include a complex combination of personality and co-morbid Axis I disorders and for you laymen, please forgive the highly technical jargon, but the correct taxonomical nomenclature would be "Shit For Brains" <G. Padishar Creel — Mental health Expert of the Major Roffian Character Disorders

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Hmmm, as I stroke my Jungian beard, I would say the diagnosis would include a complex combination of personality and co-morbid Axis I disorders and for you laymen, please forgive the highly technical jargon, but the correct taxonomical nomenclature would be "Shit For Brains" <G.

—— As to an interesting link that may be of some relevance! http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html —— Padishar Creel "Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft…and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor." –  Wernher von Braun

Response:

assume we are talking about fly fishermen.  Think we have two major groups. very rich with their float boat guides and trips to Chili  and the rural low income folks  who just have always fished because it is a way of life. The folks who amaze me are the governmental workers and the educators who seem to spend half their time fishing, and half their time posting on the internet.    Relative to income –some of us thought we were in the higher bracket, but due to recent stock market now find ourselves   trying to catch and eat. Indian Joe

Response:

OK. Since you decline to answer.  For a number of years I worked for ICI ( Imperial Chemical Industries ) in England. I possess a City and Guilds of London Certificate in chemical plant operation, ( With distinction ). and I was, among other things,  chief operator of the ethoxylation facility. I am not a chemist as such, but have a good basic knowledge of chemistry.( OK perhaps a little more than just "basic"), it was essential for my job at the time. I manufactured thousands of tons of the stuff which you are mixing and selling as your own invention.    H    H     I      I    C=C     I     I    H   H Usually written    H    H     I      I    C=C    —–    Addition polymerisation.     I     I    H   H This is Ethene ( Common name Ethylene)  C2H4 The symbol above is the most common way of writing an ethylene molecule, known as a "monomer".  When polymerised this gives Polythene ( Poly Etyhlene)  which is a common thermoplastic. When combined with oxygen, it gives EO2  which is Ethylene Oxide, a highly reactive substance, which is a primary ingredient in the processes used to produce the ingredients of the stuff you sell, Gink and Xink. Any chemist, or anybody with even a faint knowledge of chemistry would recognise it immediately. How remarkably strange that the "inventor" of a substance has no idea what is in it. Just to be absolutely certain I researched the US patent office.  Here is the extract. —- United States Patent  4,184,889 Gehrke  January 22, 1980 —- Fly, line and leader sinker composition Abstract A composition for application to fishing flies, lines and leaders to cause them to sink when placed in water. —- Inventors:  Gehrke; George E. (Drawer 1204, Salida, CO 81201) Appl. No.:  909667 Filed:  May 25, 1978 Current U.S. Class: 106/267; 43/4; 516/204; 516/DIG1 Intern’l Class:  C08L 091/00 Field of Search:  106/266,267,243 —- References Cited [Referenced By] —- U.S. Patent Documents 3526596 Sep., 1970 Kress et al. 252/52. 3872048 Mar., 1975 Brown 252/52. Foreign Patent Documents 995085 Jun., 1965 GB. Primary Examiner: Morris; Theodore Attorney, Agent or Firm: Wymore; Max L. —- Claims —- What is claimed is: 1. A composition of the matter to be applied to a fly, line or leader to cause same to sink below the surface of the water when cast by a fisherman which comprises about four parts by volume of a surface active agent consisting of the non-ionic reaction products of ethylene oxide with nonyl phenol, about one part by volume of sorbitan monolaurate and about ten parts by weight of a medium grade mineral oil blended together. 2. The composition of matter of claim 1 wherein the non-ionic reaction products of ethylene oxide with nonyl phenyl has a molar ratio of ethylene oxide in the adduct, of four. 3. The composition of matter of claim 1 including a small amount of cod liver oil and a silica thickener. 4. A method of treating a line or fly to promote sinking when cast in water which comprises applying a composition thereto of about four parts by volume of a surface active agent consisting of the non-ionic reaction products of ethylene oxide with nonyl phenol and mixing about one part therewith of sorbitan monolaurate to prevent the formation of an immersible gell between the reaction products and the water. —- Description —- One of the problems confronting the avid fly fisherman is the ability of having a fly sink fast after it is cast into the water. One solution has been to use split shot on the leader or by the use of weighted flies; however, the weighted flies do not move in a natural manner and the use of split shot on the leader makes for difficult, inaccurate and sometimes, unsafe casting. While some fly fishermen have used a sinking liquid applied to the leader, this liquid will not stay on the leader and needs to be reapplied practically for each and every cast. The benefits and advantages of the present invention are achieved by the use of a composition of matter formulated to provide ease of application and a composition that will stay on a fly and cause it to sink rapidly for many, many successive casts and wherein the fly sinks down low to where the fish are. The sinker compound works so well and lasts such a very long time that in most instances, there is no need to use split shot or weighted flies. The composition is also an excellent leader sink and makes sinking lines sink even faster. It is a primary object of this invention to provide a fly, line and leader sinker composition that is easy to use, wipes off fingers easily, provides rapid sinking to lines, leaders and flies and is retained thereon for a multitude of successive casts. Another object of the invention is to provide a sinking composition that does not interfere with the natural movement of flies and will permit safe and accurate casting. A still further object of the present invention is to provide a sinking composition many times better than previously available compositions and avoids the use of a streamer or nymph to achieve sink characteristics. Additional benefits and advantages of the present invention become apparent upon the reading of the description of the preferred embodiment. The fly, line and leader sinker composition according to this invention consists of about four parts by volume of Surfonic N-40 surface active agent, about one part by volume of Span 20 and about ten parts by weight of a mineral oil. The composition may also contain a small amount of cod liver oil for scent purposes, a small amount of mineral oil and a small amount of Aerosil 200 as a thickening agent. These ingredients are mixed together to form a highly viscous liquid product. The Surfonic N-40 is manufactured by Jefferson Chemical Company, Inc. and is available from VanWaters & Rogers, division of Univar, 4300 Holly St., Denver, Col. 80216. Surfonic N-40 surface active agent is a non-ionic reaction product of ethylene oxide with nonyl phenol. The products are designated by a number following the letter "N". The number is a ten-fold multiple of the molar ratio of ethylene oxide in the adduct. The surface active properties result from the combination of the hydrophilic polyoxyethylene chain and the hydrophobic nonyl phenol. These groups combine to form a molecule which "crosses" the oil-water interface and breaks down the surface tension so as to promote a dispersion. Surfonic N-40 is water-insoluble, oil-soluble. When the Surfonic N-40 alone contacts water, the water acts with the Surfonic N-40 to produce an immiscible gel. A surfactant Span 20 is added to the Surfonic N-40 and when mixed therewith, prevents hydration of the Surfonic N-40 from producing an immiscible gel. Span 20 is a trademark of ICI Americas, Inc., Specialty Chemicals Division, Wilmington, Del. 19897 and is used to identify a non-ionic surfactant of sorbitan monolaurate. The composition may also include about ten parts by weight of a medium grade mineral oil and a small amount of a thickness such as silica known by the trade name Aerosil 200 a product of Degussa Corp., Route 46 at Hollister Rd., P.O. Box 2004, Teterboro, N.J. 07608. The resulting composition is a thick amber liquid that can be placed on the figures and rubbed into a fly, line or leader. When a fly, line or leader treated with the composition of this invention is cast into water, the fly, line and/or leader will sink immediately and will avoid any tendency of floating on top of the water. The line, fly and/or leader so treated can be cast and re-cast numerous times without the necessity of renewing the sinker composition. The present invention may be embodied in other specific forms without departing from the spirit or essential characteristics thereof. The presently disclosed embodiment is, therefore, to be considered in all respects as illustrative and not restrictive, the scope of the invention being indicated by the appended claims rather than by the foregoing description, and all changes which come within the meaning and range of equivalency of the claims are, therefore, intended to be embraced therein. * * * * * —- END OF COPY. What this basically means is, you managed to "bamboo"zle and bullshit the US Patent Office into granting you a patent on a soap mixture.  With Silica, mineral oil, etc ( see above) added.  You have been filling this mixture into little bottles, and selling it to the unsuspecting angling public for years. Do you actually add "scent" ?  Most unsporting. Whatever, a drop of any reasonable detergent works better, and has no mineral oil or other crap in it. Any chemist would be laughing himself sick at all this. If you are a chemist, then I am the Archangel Michael. Would you like an independent analysis of Gink as well?  No trouble I assure you. MC

Response:

Germany used 88mm main guns on its tank Georgie.No reference to an 80mm gun. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do you get all this crap from ? Snipped a ton of ignorant guessing about many things you know NOTHING of. .  Americans were the boys in W.W.II that would take abandoned German Tanks, and get them running with a pair of pliers and bailing wire.  Then they would turn that 80 MM cannon around and pepper those Nazi’s asses.

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H    H I      I C=C       What is it?  What can you make of it, and how? I     I H   H MC

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Germany used 88mm main guns on its tank Georgie.No reference to an 80mm gun.

It’s quite interesting how G alludes that Mike C’s posts are derogatory towards US citizens.  I assume that this is supposed to drum up support for his "case".

Response:

You have the manners of a pig, the social skills of an alley cat, the general knowledge of a house brick, literally stink of ignorance So don’t tell us we don’t know anything about engines, wrist pin.

ROFF Backyard Wrestling !  It’s a hoot ! I’m waiting for Chyna to come out and beat both of you over the head with a folding metal chair ! Your pal, — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Don Thompson writes: Germany used 88mm main guns on its tank Georgie.No reference to an 80mm gun.

Uh, Don, uh, you will confuse him with facts.  This is the guy that flew F-100s in Korea and shot down MiG-19s a year before they came out, and a year after the war ended.  Besides, by his own words, he tells us he has been tying flies for "four score years".  The sucker is over 100 years old, apparently. BTW, I have seen and fished with Mike Connor tied flies.  They are superb examples of the art, and he gave them freely without me asking, without me supporting him, without me endorsing anything.  Of course he hasn’t been tying for 80 something years like George……. I’ve also cast a rod designed and built by Mike.  I own (moment of insanity, I know) a rod built by Gehrke.  There is no comparison to the way Mike’s rod casts to the tomato stake that George made.  If only I had pulled a Vern at the The Pirate and Bottom Dweller

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I think it’s nothing This is something     H   H      l     l H-C=C-H      l     l     H   H This is something else which is supposed to destroy cells in some part of your body.  I forget which part. This is something better.     H   H      l     l H-C=C-OH      l     l     H   H The chemistry may explain why english beer is bad. %^) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – H    H I      I C=C       What is it?  What can you make of it, and how? I     I H   H MC

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I would ask you all to refrain from answering this until Mr Gehrke does so. I have my reasons. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it’s nothing This is something

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That ain’t shit, look at this:                 S                     S                         S                             S                                 S                                 S                             S                         S                     S                 S

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it’s nothing This is something     H   H      l     l H-C=C-H      l     l     H   H This is something else which is supposed to destroy cells in some part of your body.  I forget which part. This is something better.     H   H      l     l H-C=C-OH      l     l     H   H The chemistry may explain why english beer is bad. %^) H    H I      I C=C       What is it?  What can you make of it, and how? I     I H   H MC

Response:

Now that’s a post for the ages, if I ever saw one.  Thanks for warmin’ my heart this morn Mike.  I am headed out to Wilson Creek in an hour to fish with another fine ROFFian, Wally Boy.  Mike you deserve a beer basket for this one.  If only I were so damned articulate! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where do you get all this crap from ?   Do you hear voices or something? Did some nutcase of your acquaintance and similar persuasion, mistake you for a tree, and hammer a nail in your head?   Just what the hell is the matter with you? To date we have been treated to various spectacle as a direct result of your general ignorance and incompetence. You are a chemist who does not know the first thing about even elementary chemistry, you are a pilot who has flown non-existent planes, you are an engineer who knows nothing of the by-products of internal combustion engines, an environmentalist who uses the most wasteful possible modes of transport,  you are an expert at fly-tying, although apparently unaware of how, or even if, many materials may be obtained and used, playwriting, poetry, hunting, casting and rod-building, we wont go into that, etc etc etc . And of course you are a genius ! Even the thought of somebody like you flying around in something as complex as an aeroplane gives me the shudders, even if you were only a passenger. You have the manners of a pig, the social skills of an alley cat, the general knowledge of a house brick, literally stink of ignorance and prejudice in a host of forms, and for some weird and probably completely unknowable reason, you think you are a gentleman as well. Your only apparent genius is for making nonsensical, grammatically and otherwise, barely intelligible statements,  which invariably turn out to have virtually no foundation whatsoever. Absolutely amazing. Is there not at least some faint feeble aspect of your character which is not mean, ignorant, and nasty? Your proclamations, as far as they are decipherable, invariably bear incontrovertible witness to your ignorance. Just for your information, my phone bill is in excess of 250$ per month. Even though I have reduced my internet activities considerably. I only have a small business which I now operate completely single-handed.  It is successful, as my products and work are beyond reproach, I have not had a single customer return in all the years I have been self-employed. Not even the stuff I send  per UPS is faulted. A fact that I am extremely proud of. Doubtless UPS as well.  I work long hours at difficult and physically and mentally demanding work, and then I come on here for a bit of enjoyment and have to listen to loonies like you, who have probably never done a decent days work in their entire lives, have no discernible morals, and earn their money selling a load of awful shit, most of which they do not even understand, making various statements as if they had been handed down on tablets of stone. Perhaps I should start building rods or manufacturing floatant?   If some of the competition is indeed as lousy as its reputation suggests, then I ought to make a mint. Before you start spouting bullshit, at least make an attempt, no matter how feeble, to get some information on the subject first. What I earn is none of your business. But rest assured, I earn it. MC "The gaga continues".

Response:

… You have the manners of a pig, the social skills of an alley cat, the general knowledge of a house brick, literally stink of ignorance and prejudice in a host of forms, and for some weird and probably completely unknowable reason, you think you are a gentleman as well. Your only apparent genius is for making nonsensical, grammatically and otherwise, barely intelligible statements,  which invariably turn out to have virtually no foundation whatsoever. …

Priceless. A tad harsh on pigs and alley cats not to mention downright insulting to bricks but a ROFF Hall of Fame post nonetheless. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Where do you get all this crap from ?  

Snipped a ton of ignorant guessing about many things you know NOTHING of. Look Connor, you old, wrong opinionated fool.  My rates for my Internet Service is $199.00 for a full year.  The DEDICATED phone line is $25.95 a month.  This is only $322.40 for a full year.  Amount of hours I use each month regarding Internet business exceeds 80 hours a month, which equates to about .32 Cents AN HOUR!  So what is your problem, moron? Don’t you believe these rates, you bullshit artist? Next, do you want me to send you a video tape of me flying my airplane? How about a grand tour of my chemistry lab?  Who gives a shit what YOU think?  Incidentally, there is nothing I don’t know about an internal combustion engine.  American kids, cut their teeth on them since puberty.  Americans were the boys in W.W.II that would take abandoned German Tanks, and get them running with a pair of pliers and bailing wire.  Then they would turn that 80 MM cannon around and pepper those Nazi’s asses. So don’t tell us we don’t know anything about engines, wrist pin. I bet if I said belly button, you would write a poem or essay on it for Roff? Okay, "Billy Button!" Connor, I know more about fly tying in my little finger then what you will know in the next fifty years.  I will say (for the record) you have a NICE signature as a fly tier, but what does the rest of your concerns amount too?  A waste of our valuable time because it proves nothing regarding what you know about us in America. I never, in all my life, saw anyone like you.  You jump on every subject,  you offer up endless amounts of crap we all already know about and you always seem to be looking for a pat on the head. Okay.  I can do that.   Nice Connor.  Nice Connor.  Good boy, Connor. Look?  Let me put it this way.  Pick one subject you don’t know anything about or ask me one question you don’t know the answer too, and I’ll teach you, okay? Or don’t you get the point?

Response:

Look?  Let me put it this way.  Pick one subject you don’t know anything about or ask me one question you don’t know the answer too, and I’ll teach you, okay? Or don’t you get the point?

Here’s a topic for you George. It should be easy for you since you seem to know so much about the internet. Describe how to get non-blocking routing through a toriodal interconnect fabric of any dimension. Paul

Response:

Exceeds $50,000 a year.  So what is the problem with paying $300 a year or

less for all the Internet Phone Time one would care to use, again, FOR A FULL YEAR without limits on amount of time. How cheap can you get? — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the saga continues"

Where do you get all this crap from ?   Do you hear voices or something? Did some nutcase of your acquaintance and similar persuasion, mistake you for a tree, and hammer a nail in your head?   Just what the hell is the matter with you? To date we have been treated to various spectacle as a direct result of your general ignorance and incompetence. You are a chemist who does not know the first thing about even elementary chemistry, you are a pilot who has flown non-existent planes, you are an engineer who knows nothing of the by-products of internal combustion engines, an environmentalist who uses the most wasteful possible modes of transport,  you are an expert at fly-tying, although apparently unaware of how, or even if, many materials may be obtained and used, playwriting, poetry, hunting, casting and rod-building, we wont go into that, etc etc etc . And of course you are a genius ! Even the thought of somebody like you flying around in something as complex as an aeroplane gives me the shudders, even if you were only a passenger. You have the manners of a pig, the social skills of an alley cat, the general knowledge of a house brick, literally stink of ignorance and prejudice in a host of forms, and for some weird and probably completely unknowable reason, you think you are a gentleman as well. Your only apparent genius is for making nonsensical, grammatically and otherwise, barely intelligible statements,  which invariably turn out to have virtually no foundation whatsoever. Absolutely amazing. Is there not at least some faint feeble aspect of your character which is not mean, ignorant, and nasty? Your proclamations, as far as they are decipherable, invariably bear incontrovertible witness to your ignorance. Just for your information, my phone bill is in excess of 250$ per month. Even though I have reduced my internet activities considerably. I only have a small business which I now operate completely single-handed.  It is successful, as my products and work are beyond reproach, I have not had a single customer return in all the years I have been self-employed. Not even the stuff I send  per UPS is faulted. A fact that I am extremely proud of. Doubtless UPS as well.  I work long hours at difficult and physically and mentally demanding work, and then I come on here for a bit of enjoyment and have to listen to loonies like you, who have probably never done a decent days work in their entire lives, have no discernible morals, and earn their money selling a load of awful shit, most of which they do not even understand, making various statements as if they had been handed down on tablets of stone. Perhaps I should start building rods or manufacturing floatant?   If some of the competition is indeed as lousy as its reputation suggests, then I ought to make a mint. Before you start spouting bullshit, at least make an attempt, no matter how feeble, to get some information on the subject first. What I earn is none of your business. But rest assured, I earn it. MC "The gaga continues".

Response:

Question:

Hi Folks, after all the e-mails enquiring as to my reasons for ceasing to subscribe

Gentlemen and Ladies, I am moved by the loss of the best among us. I have filed Mike’s post in a place where I’ll be able to find it next time I feel like launching a salvo. Hope we can all do the same. sniff…..

Response:

I have simply made a personal decision not to subscribe.

Good to see your byline again, Mike, even if for the last time.  best wishes….. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Mike Connor wrote [final farewell snipped] Huge loss for ROFF.  I’ll miss your wit Mike.

Response:

Mike Connor Honi soit qui mal y pense.

George Visit: http://www.gink.com

Response:

Hi Folks, after all the e-mails enquiring as to my reasons for ceasing to subscribe to the news groups generally and ROFF specifically, and although I was of the opinion that I had made my reasons quite clear, here they are once again. The subject is now closed for me. I will not answer any further e-mails on this subject, it would serve no useful purpose. E-mails to the various websites or bulletin boards to which I contribute are also a waste of time, as I will not discuss the matter further. I would be most obliged if you would consider this, especially in the chat rooms where I am on line, nobody is interested in the matter, and it just wastes time and annoys people. I will also not join in discussions denigrating ROFF, or any of its contributors under any circumstances whatsoever. If you have a problem with somebody on ROFF then talk to them or take it to e-mail with the people concerned, I have no interest in the matter. I have no personal axe to grind as far as ROFF is concerned, I still think ROFF is basically  great actually, I have simply made a personal decision not to subscribe. The reasons are listed in order of importance, just in case anybody wants to know exactly, as it appears quite a few do. 1.  I cannot afford to pay for the downloading of large amounts of spam. This is purely  a financial criteria, and is by far the most important one. Without attempting to define spam, I mean anything which may generally be described as crap, be it multiple senseless posts, or direct commercial misuse of usenet. This simply costs me a lot of money which I do not have in amounts sufficient to waste on this nonsense. Before anybody else sends me tips for saving money on usenet, do me and yourself a favour, forget it. Most of the ideas are not practicable, and as I pay metered rates for on line time, sometimes not even possible. 2. I see no point in allowing myself to be insulted or provoked by people whose main interest in life seems to be annoying or upsetting  as many people as they can in the shortest possible time. Especially when it is just nasty and not even remotely amusing. This runs contrary to the spirit of the newsgroup, and continuing to pay out good money for this sort of thing would mean I would have to have a screw loose, this is fortunately not the case. 3. I am my own man, I do what I do, say what I say, and think what I think, I do not like it much when people attribute my words or actions to reasons they have dreamed up themselves, and attempt to prove their invariably faulty conclusions in print on a public forum. I am nobodies sycophant. I also resent it deeply when people make stupid or annoying or simply false statements based on posts I or others have made, where it is perfectly obvious that they have either not read the posts properly or are lacking the wherewithal to understand them. 4.  The informational and amusement content of the newsgroups seems to be deteriorating in direct proportion to the amount of ill mannered and ignorant persons subscribing to them. I would tend to avoid such people in private life, ( the "bar" analogy ), and see no reason why I should not follow this eminently sensible policy elsewhere also. 5.  There are too many people who want to control all sorts of things, up to and including what other people may or may not post. Usenet is in my opinion one of the last bastions of true free speech, to those who can not accept this, or attempt continually to misuse it, I can only say you are not ready for freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech allows you to say what you like when you like to whoever you like, like many great things it should be exercised with manners and self-control if it is not to degenerate into a senseless insulting free for all, even more so on a relatively  anoymous medium like usenet.  If some of the things said on here in the past were indeed said in a bar, then the people responsible would certainly be looking for a new set of teeth at the very least, and a good thing too. Unfortunately as I am unable to come into even remote striking distance of the aforementioned dental accoutrements, I find it better to remove myself from the sphere of influence, whether a bar or usenet is immaterial. 6.  I was indeed extremely angry at the amount of direct e-mail spam I received as a result of the ill considered efforts of one ROFF contributor in distributing my e-mail address to commercial spammers. I am prepared to accept that this was a mistake, the person concerned apologised profusely and sincerely,and I am no longer angry at him.  This was not my main reason for leaving the group, just an extra annoyance. 7. I was ever more dismayed at the number of trolls obviously designed to get a rise out of somebody or provoke a useless argument, which turned nasty fairly quickly, I see no point in this, and I imagine it is just some perverse form of entertainment, in which only perverts would indulge, especially in view of the anonymous nature of the whole thing. Purposely pissing off someone you dont even know for enjoyment strikes me as being perverse in the  extreme, and I prefer to keep my distance in such cases. 8. The comment from many  posters that anybody who posts in public forums should expect to be insulted and must develop a thick skin is in my opinion a symptom of their own perversity and lack of manners. I expect to be treated at least with good manners. When this is not the case I have several options usually. In this particular case, retiring from the field is probably the most sensible. 9.  I was of the opinion that groups such as ROFF provided a service and source of information on the subject at hand, and everything even remotely related to it. I attempted to subcribe in this spirit, as I assume most others also do.  This attempt met  with far more negative criticism and insulting responses than I would have hoped it might, and this was extremely disappointing. This also contributed to my decision to leave. I hope this clears up any wierd ideas, misconceptions, or even downright lies as to why I no longer subscribe, and that the subject is now definitely closed. I welcome personal and private e-mail on any and every subject under the sun, and I am happy to help anybody at all if it lies within my power, however as I already said on at least one other occasion, enquiries which start with the words "How do I start fly-fishing" or similar all embracing questions are beyond my power to answer in a couple of e-mails, and anybody who thinks he can become a good flyfisherman by studying a potted set of answers from one person, or even a group of people, or watching videos etc, ought to take up tennis, or bowling or something similar. The only way to become a good flyfisherman is to go and do it, read as much as you can, talk to as many flyfishers as you can, and try out what they say, advice on specific problems will always be available. One of the greatest attractions of flyfishing is the fact that however much you learn, and however good you become, there is always something new to learn, the possibilities and facets are infinite.  Flyfishing is not just a hobby like embroidering cushion covers, or weaving carpets, as a way of killing time, it is a philosophy, a religion, a way of life. It is hard work all the way, but absolutely fascinating, entrancing and enslaving. Thanks again for all your e-mails, I am surprised ( and of course pleased ! ) that my leaving a forum like this could generate such a furore which lasts such a long time. I obviously made a positive and pleasant impact on at least some of you, as indeed many of you did on myself. It is very pleasant to get such support and encouragement mostly from people I have never met , and probably never will, I met some lovely people on the groups, I enjoyed myself, and I learned an awful lot, but I will not return to any of the newsgroups, if only to prove some of the ignorant and insulting people  wrong who e-mailed me telling me what a pompous over educated ( If only they knew !!! )ass I am, and that I would doubtless return at some point. I would not like to give such people the satisfaction of being right, even if I got usenet access for free ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor Honi soit qui mal y pense.

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Question:

Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

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got skunked. I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

Love you Bill!!!!! You probably have more experience with both guides and lawyers, but I find it easies to find a competeant guide than it is a competeant lawyer. Care to comment? Big Dale

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LL Bean still has their warranty policy in place… Lifetime satisfaction guarantee If you break the rod on a trip, they’ll overnight fedex a replacement anwhere in the country.  You return the broken rod at your convenience. All free. Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault.  I remember that I took care of my rod, because if I broke it, I was  out X number of dollars.  I remember a time when you were responsible for your actions.  I remember when I didn’t do well in school, it was my fault, not society.  I remember breaking my arm in junior high school and not suing the school.  I remember a time when if you broke something, you stood up like a man and admitted it…. It’s amazing how rods are now "accidently" broken as opposed to how many were broken BEFORE the new warranties. Just my 2 cents. Flyguy Bill Kiene wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault

Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod. Some people probably won’t buy a super-premium rod because they’re afraid they’ll break it.  So by offering a no-fault warranty, the manufacturers get more folks to buy the highly profitable rods.  Really, it makes a lot of sense given the disparity between direct and retail costs. Especially now that the rod vendors are charging for warranty repairs (and offsetting most of the cost anyway), they’re laughing all the way to the bank. Michael

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod.

that very possibly true – check out George Gherke’s costing for his Bastard Rod – the fitting alone exceed $50. but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit. For most products of this nature the mark up on the rod( the difference between the retail price and the wholessale price the retailer pays) is about 1/3 of the price you pay. So for a $650 rod the manufacturer may gets $425 in revenue. Ralph H

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but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit.

Absolutely true, but it’s also my point. You can make the argument that it’s reasonable for a fly mfg. to charge $650 for a rod.  (Hey, no one’s forcing me to buy the damn thing, and the market also supplies pretty good rods at every price point from $19 up).  Lord knows, a lot of vendors with fancy names and fancy rods are only marginally profitable.  But the time to make the profit is on the initial sale and, hopefully,  the next sale a few years later from a satisfied customer upgrading to the same vendor’s latest and greatest. Repairs are a time when the vendor can make or break customer loyalty.  It’s simply not worth getting into a debate with the customer about who’s fault it was.  <<Was the ferrule defective, or had it loosened up on me while fishing?  Is it the fault of the vendor’s poor tolerances that the rod loosened up and then broke at the ferrule, or my sloppy fishing habits, for not checking them every once in a while?  It just makes good sense for the manufacturer to fix a rod at it’s marginal cost, and not mark it up.  Even if it truly is the customer’s fault.  Hey, we all make mistakes. Then you can argue whether, if the marginal cost is so low (say $20 for a section of a $600 rod), does it make sense to bill for it, or do you get even more than $20 worth of loyalty and repeat business to do it for "free". I don’t see this as a biggee…it’s close enough to $0 that I wouldn’t care if I felt it were my fault.  Of course, if it were truly a mfg. flaw, I’d be pissed off about paying even $20, much less $50. Michael

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Question:

Hi folks, I’m new to the group, and would like your thoughts on what is the best kayak for fly fishing coastal bays and flats.  I normally fly fish in Christmas Bay (close to Galveston, TX), and use a Zest Two – Ocean Kayak two seater.  It’s kinda tough to handle in a breeze over, say, 10 kts. I’m in the market for a faster boat that will handle higher wind conditions, and would like some input from those more knowledgable than I. Howard About Christmas Bay – http://www.christmasbay.com

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  Hi, the boat of choice here in San Diego for fishing seems to be the Scupper Pro,and Scupper Classic. I own the classic , it weighs48pds. compared to your68pd. zest. The pros weigh 55pds.      I’m able to troll effectivly even when the wind picks up, if the wind picks up while jig fishing or while i’m after halibut i use my sea anchor to slow my drift     Aqua

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I’m new to the group, and would like your thoughts on what is the best kayak for fly fishing coastal bays and flats.  I normally fly fish in Christmas Bay (close to Galveston, TX), and use a Zest Two – Ocean Kayak two seater.  It’s kinda tough to handle in a breeze over, say, 10 kts. I’m in the market for a faster boat that will handle higher wind conditions, and would like some input from those more knowledgable than I.

I’m also a newbie to this thing, but I’ve got a few opinions anyway…  [had my boat for a couple months so far] I know most folks will suggest an open cockpit boat, but don’t write off an enclosed version.   Also, I know most folks tend to prefer getting out of the boat and wade, but I’m not one of them.  I like to start more or less dry, and end more or less dry. I have very little difficulty casting my 8 weight while seated in my kayak. [Dagger Edisto].   But there is also enough deck rigging to support a decent trolling setup, and there was enough mounting and cargo room for me to add an all-around light to help with safe night fishing and transits to duck hunting spots next season.. If you are annoyed by high winds and waves, get a rudder. The difference is mind bogolling. My modest experiences so far: http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html

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If you are annoyed by high winds and waves, get a rudder. The difference is mind bogolling. My modest experiences so far: http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html

If I get out I may use a fly rod on the flats, but I have had more luck trolling from my kayak.  I dont know if its the speed or that the boat makes the fish notice my fly or lure but the success rate is pretty good for both bass and blues.  I use a kevlar kayak and a rudder to make the experience "less painful".  I also gave up using a rod from my boat.  I made a hand line device that is very easy to use.  To see one visit my site at:  http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin I usually troll rapalas, rubber eels a fly or other artifical baits. —     Hal     Wilton, NH     Power your boat with carbohydrates,     not hydrocarbons.           http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin                 0                  _O                     0

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If I get out I may use a fly rod on the flats, but I have had more luck trolling from my kayak.  I dont know if its the speed or that the boat

I do good trolling as well. experience "less painful".  I also gave up using a rod from my boat.  I made a hand line device that is very easy to use.  To see one visit my

Give up my rod and reel?  I have a rod holder angled 45 degrees backward, a bit behind the cockpit.  I can paddle (troll) at any speed without interference.  That reminds me…i was trolling at work yesterday..woops!

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Question:

#but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse #Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where #he stands, #he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. somebody said back there a bit–if it’s true, why isn’t Jesse insisting that the coons stay in their own part of town as he did back in the good old days? Helms changes, like everybody whose standards are flexible and who considers himself to be a man of principle but returns to the senate voluntarily.  (and many thinking folks hope he comes to his senses.) As for Gierach, he’s an excellent stylist with an ironic wit, and it’s all fiction mind you, which appellation our BB seems to aspire to much more recently. "Strait-laced" as Shakespeare (or should I say the Earl of Oxford?) had it–the pompous Malvolio of Twelfth Night made a fool of himself by coming around in the opposite look, the dandified and contrived "cross-gartered" style. . .in other words, he went out as what he wasn’t, and was laughed off the creek for it.  Went insane, if I remember correctly.  And Shakespeare wrote about what he wasn’t for a buck, collected "such rascal counters" happily; he would have signed his name for more if he’d had the chance, I reckon. Dave

Response:

I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

Response:

I met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop… John was

actually very pleasant and even though he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. … he seemed like a pretty decent guy,besides being a great writer! Hey Skilch, you’re right about Gierach. I live "up the road" from John, and bump into him, Mike, and the clan on the high country streams occasionally. I’ve also yakked with him at Mike’s rod shop, and been to John’s fly tying clinics. I don’t know Gierach very well, but I like the guy – and I certainly admire what he’s been able to accomplish in his career. Anybody who can win the Robert Traver Award for excellence in outdoor writing, author thousands of magazine articles, newspapers columns, and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success. Too bad. Regards, Dennis

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[deleted] and ten of the best selling fly fishing books in recent history is bound to invite some criticism from those who wish to hell they had his gift – and his success.

Please. Noone (at least not me) is being critical of either: 1) the fact that john is a nice guy  or 2) that they envy his gifts. If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no need to defend him on those scores. In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I enjoy John Geirach at least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.   I like Ted Lesson’s writing better than Gierach. Again, it has nothing to do with John being a good guy or a clever successful hard-working man.  I am certain that he is all that.  You don’t buy a flyrod or a car for that matter just because the builder is a ‘nice guy’.   I liked James Bashline, who was not a writer, really…but offered me something of value in "Nightfishing for Trout". A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content.  The best thing you could do as a writer is get Nick Lyon’s in your court.  That is power there. The number of sales define the number of awards and some of us are simply critical of the writing itself and are not star struck, nor do we have penis envy.  In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.   To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.   So sue me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?   To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most do. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be proud of.   — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Does Gierach still live in Lyons? I spent summers there (I’m an East Coast boy) in the early ’70’s and fished the St. Vrain top to bottom–my grandfather owned the trailer park in the big bend just outside of Lyons (next box up from the park.) I think I trespassed on his property a few times. Dave

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:I enjoy John Geirach at :least as much or more than E. Donnel Thomas, "Whitefish Can’t Jump", but :they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not :define great writers. You were doing just fine Moe until you said the above which caused me to laugh out loud. You can’t take those darn short stories seriously, you slay me sometimes… TC

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they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not define great writers.

I gotta wonder what Ernest Hemmingway woulda said about that. Big Two Hearted River for example, is far from simple. Ben

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: In my critical estimation, as a consumer of flyfishing books, John Gierach : is a good writer, but not a great writer.  He got someone to publish him, in : my opinion, and the rest is history.   Steve Spinolio is a better writer, in : my book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham.   I didn’t know Spinolio had written anything beyond a post or two, one of which I have on my office wall.  Where can I find his writing?  

Any idea when he is to return? Or if he will? Kiyu

Response:

I actually met John Gierach in Lyons, Colorado at Mike Clarks shop  this last fall.  We stopped by the shop on our way to the Frying Pan.  John G.  was actually very pleasant and eventhough he didn’t have to stay and talk, he did. I haven’t read all the posts about him, but wanted to put in me 2 cents worth about my brief contact with him and how he seemed like a pretty decent guy, besides being a great writer!

If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. I predict with the former.  One problem I see here is that many insist on judging him as a flyfisherman, based on his writings. The only way you can judge him as a flyfisher, is to fly fish with him. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you will. On that basis I find him well worth an evening in the easy chair. Since I haven’t fished with him, I can’t comment on the other. DAO DAO

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If Geirach is really the guy he says he is in his writing, then he reallly

doesn’t give a rat’s ass about all these postings about him, pro and con. If he logs on to defend himself, you may be assured he is a fraud. Funny you should bring that up, Dale. I was with John for an hour or so last week, and asked him if he was aware of the dialog about him on the internet. He just chuckled and said, "Yeah,  the guys told me about it. Sounds like those people are pissing away some good fishing time wrangling over nothing." … or words to that effect. He won’t be logging on. He doesn’t own a computer. As a reader, you must judge him as an outdoor writer, an entertainer, if you

will. On that basis I find him, well worth an evening in the easy chair.< Precisely.

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If you read past the subject line in these posts, you would have had no needto

defend him on those scores. Your right Moe, I was arguing apples and oranges here. My apologies.  He got someone to publish him, in

my opinion, and the rest is history. Right again, but he didn’t get just "anyone" to publish him. Pruett, Lyons, Simon & Shuster and Stackpole are hardly the kind of publishing houses to invest in ho-hum writers. <  Steve Spinolio is a better writer, inmy book, than John Gierach, or Russell Chatham … or E. Donnel Thomas I’m not familiar with Spinolio. Is he someone I should be reading. Know where I can find any of his stuff?, but they are very much on the same, simple, short story format that does not

define great writers.  I suspect you may open a real can of worms with that judgement, Moe. A sad truth is, IMO, the sale of books often has as much to do with the

publishers backing them and the level of gloss on the dust jacket as it does quality of content. Maybe, but again, big publishing houses aren’t likely to invest in writers whose work doesn’t sell. As for" quality of content", that’s a pretty subjective matter.   The number of sales define the number of awards… I’m not so sure that’s an accurate statement. Lyons didn’t publish Trout Bum, nor much of Gierach’s other works. And if I’m not mistaken, John won the Traver Award for a fictional piece that appeared in FR & R. nor do we have penis envy.

????Where’d that come from?   In Johns case, he has moments of really good stuff, but overall the stuff is repetitive, monotonous, politically correct and often boring.  To me, life offers more exciting fishing trips than John Gierach does in his writing.  So sue me. Actually, I’d rather go fishing with you, but If I were to sue-  and win – how much could I get? later DES

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To be a writer, one must write.  I battle with this everyday.  I suspect most

do. Amen to that. At the very least, Gierach writes in large amount.  That’s something to be

proud of. And to that one, as well. DES

Response:

Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

Response:

I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own. I pose a question to any of you who find it within your right to criticize John at a personal or professional level:Have you ever had a conversation with the man? Do you know him and how he lives and his quality of life? I think that most critics would say NO to these questions. John is a very simple man. He’s a very acute journalist who has developed a style both in and out of the newspapers of his own. He is a fine flyfisherman and a generally nice guy to know. Most people who know him feel the same way. If one thing you can say of John, and I hope not to insult him with this comparison, but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time, like most of us. So don’t wander down a road that you’re not familiar with, you may hit a tree or a parked car or Butch, the local dog who everybody in town knows would be sleeping in the road at 2:00pm on a tuesday. It might be hazardous. Jim Brady

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Another follow-up on this thread… Just don’t read or buy the books he has written if you don’t like his writing.  As for me, I like a lot of what John has written. Most of his writing is non-technical, and therefore fine pleasure reading, if I’m into it. While Christmas cleaning btw, I perused through a lot of old Fly Fisherman and Rod and Reel Mags in my collection dating all the way back to the early eighties.  The writer in question (John) has been around for a long time, has "paid his dues," and in a professional sense is worthy of respect even if many people don’t like his work.  No need for debate or slander of the individual on a ng forum. Wayne Fenior Midland, MI – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was with you until you last paragraph. Literature, great and small, is open game to critics and it is wonderful for an author to have a defender. But, to think that people offer an descenting opinion because they are jealous of a guy who fishes for a living is absurd. By in large, my fly fishers are smarter and better read than that. It’s an opinion. Agree. Disagree. Who cares. I can speak to the issue with a decent amount of authority. I have been in the communications industry for 27-plus years and have only fly fished for half that time. Gierach is a fine writer. I have most of his books. But, I think we all can agree that he is not producing groundbreaking work here. His stuff is Day Berry In Waders, whihc is fine. Hell, Dave Berry won a Pulitzer. As much as I like Gierach, he gets, like anyone else who writes for pay alot, myself included, formulaic, and hence some of his stuff becomes "typical". Knowing where someone stands is not necessarily the greatest commendation one can make about literature. Read Mein Kampf and you know where that guy stood too! My view is simple, stuff like Gierach’s should entertain and inform. Period. I do not expect it to change my life or create a new vision for my life. I leave that to far better writers with something to say on the topic. But, as for whiling away an evening after slaving over a hot word processor all day, I’ll take Gierach any day of the week. Ask the man and I am sure he will tell you he is not out to change the world. He’;s a writer and damn few of us are good enough to change the world. But, if we any good at what we do, we can inform and entertain for a while, even a moment. So, lighten up! Besides, I think Gierach is a big boy and can defend himself nicely. Hollis

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Tim, I think if I could paraphrase your response–if you’re gonna set up shop as an icon (or let others set you up), you better expect some iconoclasts will come along. It goes with the job. I have to agree…good, not great. Trouble is, good writers don’t usually stay in print 50 years later. And in 100 years, no one remembers who the good writers were. That’s a tribute for great writers, and I don’t think we should start throwing that appelation around lightly. BTW–do you know where these straight-laced, stoic fishermen are. They’re not around here, that’s for damned sure! I don’t think I last an afternoon fishing with one of ‘em! Roger

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman find the time to criticize one of their own.

        (lots of stuff snipped) , but hes like the Senator from my state Jesse Helms. You may not always agree with him but you always know where he stands, he doesn’t teeter or waiver from his beliefs. A quality I believe to be a goal for most men.

        let me tell you, jack, that he is also my senior senator, a fact that renders me nauseous, but is presently unavoidable.  and if you think ol jesse wouldn’t sell every goddam inch of hazel creek to the highest bidder in the tree cuttin industry, then you are blind as a bat.  and having read gierach, i can’t believe he would accept such a comparison. The other point is I believe that most flyfisherman, a strangely stoic bunch as it goes, are somewhat jealous of a man who can do what most of us want to do ALL the time instead of just some of the time,

        how much the guy fishes has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of his prose.  which, imho, is very high.  but your apology for him, in the face of timbo’s protestations, is lamentable.         a. wayne harrison

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

Is it really you ?  I thought you were dead ? Comparing Gierach to Shakespeare ? Like the guy that painted a happy face on a dairy cows underside. Udderly Silly. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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I find it humerous that all these straight laced flyfisherman

I’ve spent enough time around this group the past couple of years to know that most of the laces don’t get any crookeder than the ones you’ll find round here. Nope…not a straight lace in the bunch (I say that with pride, so don’t anyone get offended). Roger

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Much of Shakepeare’s work was "formulaic" and "Typical" yet in retrospect his work is viewed as "ground breaking".  Perhaps Gierach’s stuff needs the appreciation that only time and distance can impart to the nonappreciative and overly cautious segments of his audience.

I would have to disagree on calling much of Shakespeare formulaic or typical. Sure, he may have used some common conventions and story lines adopted from other sources, but if you compare Shakespeare’s King Lear, for example, with contemporary version’s like Nahum Tate’s, Big Bill the Bard’s on a whole new plane. As for Geirach I don’t think the same can be said. I have read and enjoyed his work as light reading over my lunch hour. Or on a camping trip. Groundbreaking? Unconventional? Original? I don’t think so. There is very little that hasn’t been done before by others, and won’t be done again. It’s not even a terribly distinctive voice. This doesn’t make it unpleasant or without value. But I don’t think it’s the kind of stuff posterity is going to elevate into the canon of great works. If you went back 100-200 years and looked at the best selling books…other than the bible, you probably wouldn’t recogize many of them. The reason they were so popular was not that they were original, but rather that they perfectly mimicked the conventions of their day. They appealed to contemporary tastes. That…I think…is what Geirach does. He ain’t writing for the ages. Roger

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Seems to me that how nice a guy a person is, how authentic or otherwise attractive his lifestyle might ain’t got a lot to do with the quality of his writing, and thus the orig. poster just misses the point of some of Gierach’s detractors entirely. Hemmingway, for instance, does not seem to be the kind of guy one would enjoy spending lots of time with, and while through happy circumstances I can afford to fish as much as Gierach (or maybe even more), that don’t make me a writer.         That said, I think that most if not all of Gierach’s detractors miss a point too, and that is that almost no author I know of who has turned out more than just a book or two is able to maintain the same quality of prose over and over and over again. But even then, there are authors who write one great great work and then are either silent or write crap, and others who simply maintain a fairly high level consistently  throughout their careers.         For my money I suspect some of Gierach’s stuff

Question:

I am looking for a telephone number (or adress) of a company called Float Tube Unlimited. Thanks in advance                      Thomas — Sender:  Thomas Urbig          Harvard University          Institute for Molecular and Cellular Biology          16 Divinity Ave.          Cambridge, MA 02138          Tel: (USA) 617 495 3716;   Fax:  (USA)  617 496 8726

Response:

Quoting Thomas from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    <I am looking for a telephone number (or adress) of a company called    <Float Tube Unlimited. Jim Carlisle

Response:

I tried to get a catalog off thier 1-800 #, 3 freak’n times.   NO LUCK. Whats with that company??? I went with Cabela’s. John

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Question:

Will be in Utah this month or next (June). Seeking advice on best places near Orem. Also pointers to good guide books. Thanks!

Response:

Will be in Utah this month or next (June). Seeking advice on best places near Orem. Also pointers to good guide books. Thanks!

A couple of hours (maybe 3) south on I-15 is the town of Beaver.  Abt 10 miles (paved) west of town is Minersville Resovoir. It’s catch & release, last weekend we caught fis in the 18-21 inch range.  BTW, a busy day on the lake is maybe 15 people. Regards, KBC

Response:

You will be 5 miles from the Provo River and if you are a serious Fly Fisherman you will be there.  Ask any fishing store, or sports store in orem for more info of the Provo. The other guy mentioned driving 3 hours to some lake down south??? If your willing to drive 3 Hours you can get to the Green River, and ask anybody online, the Green is simply the Best! Good Luck!

Response:

I would opt for the Provo. Although be prepared for crowded conditions on the weekends. I would second the previous post, if your going to drive south 3 hours, play golf, if you want fish hit the Green River, I can almost guarentee you won’t be sorry.

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Question:

ANYONE IN THIS NEWSGROUP INTERESTED IN A SE MASS S/W FLY FISH COAST E MAIL ME DIRECT REGARDS MATT

Response:

I’m interested.

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