Question:

We are approaching critical mass–and a dangerous time–that of sinking poll numbers for Bush, and the revelation of the proofs that the towers were hit by missles from specially outfitted planes, and the proof that the towers came down thru controlled demoliton. That’s more than enough proof.  The website http://www.letsroll911.org is ranked as among the top 25K downloaded sites on the Internet in the past month. But with these two events closing in on the Bush administration, the falling polls, and the complicity of 9/11 getting known, may trigger another attack, and the declaration of martial law, in order to cancel the election, shut down the Internet as we know it, and to clamp down on further discussion of 9/11. Some say we are already in a partial police state,  and some say we now more everything that has been said, the Congress, the military,  the media, does nothing.  Obviously they are persuaded to do nothing. http://www.911sharethetruth.com 9-11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB–OUR NATION IS IN PERIL       – A Call to All True Patriots –    We have actively studied the questionable nature of the official version of what happened to our nation on September 11, 2001. Throughout the first year after 9-11 we ignored and did not believe those who asked us to question the official story. Like millions of Americans we believed America had been attacked by terrorists from abroad. Sadly, we are now convinced that our government committed a vicious criminal act against its own citizens for the larger purpose of swaying us to support both domestic and foreign policies mapped out in the mid and late 1990’s. 9-11 was Hitler’s Reichstag fire of 1933 and Roosevelt’s Pearl Harbor masterfully coordinated to achieve the desired ends of an imperialistic role for America in the world, patriotic support at home and the erosion of our constitutional rights. In a nutshell, the war on terrorism is a cruel hoax by a misguided, out-of-democratic control small group of individuals sabotaging the best of American values. We are in the midst of a constitutional crisis combined with severe domination from an Orwellian corporate media knowingly or unknowingly being of service to the true powerbrokers behind the curtain. We feel like we are living in the "Matrix" where we can blend in, but knowing something is horribly wrong and must be exposed. The quality of life for all of our loved ones is at stake along with the hopes of millions of people for a world of peace, freedom and ecological sustainability. If just a few of you take the time to study a little more and become involved in the 9-11 truth movement we will be greatly appreciative. We strongly feel that people of all progressive movements should involve themselves in this effort to expose the truth about 9-11 and in the greatest push ever from the grassroots to nonviolently replace our current despotic leadership. It would have tremendous positive consequences to all of our progressive movements if similar to the fall of Nixon over Watergate that the Bush administration was exposed on this and replaced. This outrageous criminal act must be brought to justice and our freedoms restored. We need to reach out now to all those who may be willing to hear and break the silence. Go to site for posters, cassettes, buttons… http://www.911sharethetruth.com

Response:

We are approaching critical mass–and a dangerous time–that of sinking poll numbers for Bush, and the revelation of the proofs that the towers were hit by missles from specially outfitted planes, and the proof that the towers came down thru controlled demoliton. That’s more than enough proof.  The website http://www.letsroll911.org is ranked as among the top 25K downloaded sites on the Internet in the past month.

Yep, it was an inside job….the planes blew up INSIDE the buildings. Gee, you are so smart.  You are right about specially outfitted planes… aircraft slamming into the side of a building would go in just like a missle.  And correct again about the controlled demolition…those terrorists must have been really skilled to be able to CONTROL the way they demolished the buildings. By the way numbnuts, watch the footage again.  The buildings did not collapse starting from the bottom.  A controlled demolition would not have been done in the basement, but would have needed to take out at least a dozen floors with the size of the buildings and taken at least a week to plan, and implement.  I think people would have gotten just a mite suspicious with work crews cutting through the structural pilings, setting shaped charges and running primer cord throughout the buildings. The quality of the steel made back when the towers were constructed was poor compared to today.  The structural tolerance was quite low.  The intense heat would collapse the pilings.  And the weight exerted by the upper floors would and did cause the lower ones to fail, causing a cascade failure.  The only way the building would have toppled is if the lower pilings were strong enough to hold back the collapsing upper floors and deflect the path of the fall.  But, as we all saw, it did not. Cease and decist your trolling.  People are getting sick of your freakish extremist "moveon.orgism". GO AWAY!!!!     *PLONK*

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are approaching critical mass–and a dangerous time–that of sinking poll numbers for Bush, and the revelation of the proofs that the towers were hit by missles from specially outfitted planes, and the proof that the towers came down thru controlled demoliton. That’s more than enough proof.  The website http://www.letsroll911.org is ranked as among the top 25K downloaded sites on the Internet in the past month. But with these two events closing in on the Bush administration, the falling polls, and the complicity of 9/11 getting known, may trigger another attack, and the declaration of martial law, in order to cancel the election, shut down the Internet as we know it, and to clamp down on further discussion of 9/11. Some say we are already in a partial police state,  and some say we now more everything that has been said, the Congress, the military,  the media, does nothing.  Obviously they are persuaded to do nothing. Yup – and yet the media still refuses to even question the wacko bush conspriracy explanation for 9-11.  Thank gof for the net or it would truly be hopeless.

What does gof have to do with anything. — Retired military and damn proud of it.

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Yup – and yet the media still refuses to even question the wacko bush conspriracy explanation for 9-11.  Thank gof for the net or it would truly be hopeless. Indeed.  Being uncensored,

Free press would also be uncensored.                                       the net provides the ideal soapbox for every paranoid conspiracy theorist who knows how to use a keyboard.

Which does not mean that everything on the net or in ng’s that does not conform to your beliefs is conspiracy theory. Expressions like "conspiracy theory" appeal to the irrational side of people, and so serve only to cloud the issues. The official story of 9/11 is also a conspiracy theory: several people conspired to execute the attacks; and the story is no more than a theory because there is only precious little evidence to support it. And of all the conspiracy theories so far presented, the official story is among the silliest. Matti P.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which does not mean that everything on the net or in ng’s that does not conform to your beliefs is conspiracy theory. This is true.  Yet, just because it does not conform to my beliefs does not automatically mean that it is accurate. Expressions like "conspiracy theory" appeal to the irrational side of people, and so serve only to cloud the issues. The official story of 9/11 is also a conspiracy theory: several people conspired to execute the attacks; and the story is no more than a theory because there is only precious little evidence to support it. Perhaps then I should have used the full term "paranoid conspiracy theory" – addressing those ideas that attempt to explain facts that have already been explained, but in a far more bizarre and usually convoluted manner that reassures the wannabe Fox Mulder that The Truth Really Is Out There, and that THEY do not want you to know about it.  It is really only a desire on the part of the theorist to demonstrate their ability to outwit THEM, despite all the barriers THEY supposedly put in the theorists’ way.

I understood your point; just wanted to clarify terms. And of all the conspiracy theories so far presented, the official story is among the silliest. Oh, by no means.  In my experience, by far the silliest theory yet put forward is by the Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists (PCTs) themselves.

Please note: I said "among the silliest", not "the silliest". Matti P. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This is the notion that the attack on the Pentagon was carried out not by a terrorist in a hijacked 767, but by a remote-controlled drone plane or missile, packed with explosives and painted (this is priceless) in American Airlines livery to fool onlookers (who presumably cannot tell the difference between a liner and a missile or fighter), whilst the actual 767 was landed at an airport nearby having been flown OVER the Pentagon in the confusion.  The passengers were later ‘disappeared’ by the CIA. There are more holes in this ludicrous ‘explanation’ than in a standard fishing net – and yet it is passed reverently from PCT to PCT as though it is some holy gospel of truth.  In comparison to that, at least to those who have even the slightest grip on the real world, the official line, whilst perhaps open to question in some areas, seems to make far more sense. — Midjis

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which does not mean that everything on the net or in ng’s that does not conform to your beliefs is conspiracy theory. This is true.  Yet, just because it does not conform to my beliefs does not automatically mean that it is accurate. Expressions like "conspiracy theory" appeal to the irrational side of people, and so serve only to cloud the issues. The official story of 9/11 is also a conspiracy theory: several people conspired to execute the attacks; and the story is no more than a theory because there is only precious little evidence to support it. Perhaps then I should have used the full term "paranoid conspiracy theory" – addressing those ideas that attempt to explain facts that have already been explained, but in a far more bizarre and usually convoluted manner that reassures the wannabe Fox Mulder that The Truth Really Is Out There, and that THEY do not want you to know about it.  It is really only a desire on the part of the theorist to demonstrate their ability to outwit THEM, despite all the barriers THEY supposedly put in the theorists’ way. And of all the conspiracy theories so far presented, the official story is among the silliest. Oh, by no means.  In my experience, by far the silliest theory yet put forward is by the Paranoid Conspiracy Theorists (PCTs) themselves.  This is the notion that the attack on the Pentagon was carried out not by a terrorist in a hijacked 767, but by a remote-controlled drone plane or missile, packed with explosives and painted (this is priceless) in American Airlines livery to fool onlookers (who presumably cannot tell the difference between a liner and a missile or fighter), whilst the actual 767 was landed at an airport nearby having been flown OVER the Pentagon in the confusion.  The passengers were later ‘disappeared’ by the CIA. There are more holes in this ludicrous ‘explanation’ than in a standard fishing net – and yet it is passed reverently from PCT to PCT as though it is some holy gospel of truth.  In comparison to that, at least to those who have even the slightest grip on the real world, the official line, whilst perhaps open to question in some areas, seems to make far more sense. — Midjis

But there is conclusive physical evidence that no 767 hit the Pentagon, in fact no evidence of fusilage of any plane found.. The fact that two, one piece that does not match photographed on the lawn points to conspiracy. There was no American Airlines flight 77 scheduled to fly that day. There is conclusive physical evididence that no  passenger jet plane hit the 1st tower or penetrated it. {The film shown shown the following day  9/12, was  crudely edited.  You can see it by looking for the evidence "first plane")  There is only three small holes in the building, none greater that a few feet. There was no American Airlines flight 11 scheduled to fly that day.  What few eye witnesses say a very small plane, holding no more than 10-12 seats, or "a missle with wings".  Check out the examination of that flight and the photos  on thewebfairy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sheer volume of web articles devoted to the idea that there is ‘conclusive physical evidence’ of anything of the sort is absolutely staggering.  Particularly since there is no such evidence. Patently false. Yes, it is easy to say that, is it not?  But I would be interested to see you provide some of this supposed evidence – and try to do slightly better than the photos you directed me to in the other thread. — Midjis ~~ ama semper quisquis noces

Blow me.

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The sheer volume of web articles devoted to the idea that there is ‘conclusive physical evidence’ of anything of the sort is absolutely staggering.  Particularly since there is no such evidence. Patently false. Yes, it is easy to say that, is it not?  But I would be interested to see you provide some of this supposed evidence – and try to do slightly better than the photos you directed me to in the other thread.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/sweetdeal_title.jpg This one doesn’t NECCESARILY prove anything, other than that a KC-767 prototype did in fact exist, but it’s very telling nevertheless. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Midjis ~~ ama semper quisquis noces

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Question:

I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.

Agreed.  I think the only way to settle this for sure is to find someone familiar with this particular hatch on that body of water. Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly."

H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata. Wolfgang

Response:

JAFB, Wolfie — TBone

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata.

I think you may have that backwards in that I think you’ll find that Recurvata is larger than Limbata, but only just.  In any case, they are close enough in size that it doesn’t really matter – if one is much too large, the other will be as well.  If they are too large, then color really doesn’t matter, but I’ve seen references that indicate both can range in color.  Based on the information that Recurvata/Limbata is much too large, I’d try to get a look at Epeorus.  Here’s a link I found: http://www.mayfly.com/articles/WW7.html by Al Caucci and I’ve also emailed you a copy of the "suspect." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

Response:

rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake),

was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                       Tom

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rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                      Tom

Ah…thanks.  I guess then I ought to add that everything I’ve indicated in this thread may be equally outdated.  I’m almost afraid to ask, but…any idea why? TC, R

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger.

What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…" TC, R

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I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2.

Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia.   Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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      I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all   fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I   found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the   state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as   interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty   much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance,   habitat, and habit of the target species. Although the Web has a vast amount of information, it is often difficult or even impossible to find the specific information that you want. I would like to see the studies done at public Universities made available on the Internet. Because the data would need to be inputted, it would be costly and difficult for older studies, but virtually all current research is composed on a computer and making them available to the public wouldn’t be a monumental task. This access could be a condition for any researchers getting public funding for their research.     Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as   easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would   necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a   specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know   of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to   specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they   are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a   stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason   to be familiar with my target species. I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.     As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal   differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even   unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown   to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of   small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time.   There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known   species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an   uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of   numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial   confluence of circumstances. You may very well be right about this. One of the researchers I contacted said that they were MANY unknown species and local variations. There just isn’t much grant money available to study them. The vast amount of research done on insects is on insect control (where the money is). Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…"

Unfortunately, I seem to be unable to access anything on the web right now.  We had some trouble with the college server last week.  Looks like it may not be entirely resolved yet.  I’ll take a look at the Epeorus as soon as I can. Thanks Wolfgang

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I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. According to the book, they are clumsy on takeoff as they are so large, often skipping across  the water. They emerge at dusk or after sunset being primarily a cool lake species but slow, silty parts of rivers will hold them too. BTW, at the beginning of August, we drove through a blizzard light cahill hatch at dusk.  Still trying to get the critters off my car. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula.

I was fortunate to fish a Brown Drake hatch this year at Silver Creek. These are by far the largest mayflies I’ve ever seen, and the hatch was prolific. The hatch occurs in the evening and through the night, until it’s so dark that you can only detect the takes by ear. These bugs live in slow moving water with a silty bottom. The nymphs are swimmers, and they’ll take fish before the hatch with a stripped retrieve. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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 Wolfgang, dear boy.  There is only one mayfly that is as prolific as the ones you describe.  Hexagina Limbatas!  So thick are they during the early days that they would cover a cabin and all the screen doors with their numbers. God!  What an insect! George Gehrke

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  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks. Wolfgang

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I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet. I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  They were NOT Hexigina. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes. Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.   Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks.

Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas?

wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image… –waldo

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Wolfgang asks: Any ideas?

ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access). People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.                                   Tom

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Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg

That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger. All in all, I think uncle Wally’s candidate looks the most promising.     Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas? wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image…

THAT’S IT!  I’d recognize the bastard anywhere! Wolfgang who is reasonably certain he doesn’t even want to know what the nymphs look like.      :(

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I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet.

I remember talking about this with you, but I don’t recall whether you said anything about the substrate there.  The bugs I encountered would almost have to have been burrowers.  The bottom of this lake was very soft….even very near shore where turbulence would wash away at least some of the muck you would sink at least ankle deep in the stuff.  I’m not intimately familiar with the Lake Michigan shoreline in the Chicago area, so I may have missed it, but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such? I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  

Size and color scheme sound about right. They were NOT Hexigina.

Absolutely right.  Impossible to mistake the Hex for anything else. Moreover, while I don’t remember just how long they were around, we encountered them when we first left the cottage in the morning, which would have been fairly early (at a cottage on a lake in what we thought of as the north woods nothing…..well, almost nothing…could keep us indoors much past sunrise on a sunny day) and I remember that we stayed inside for the rest of the day, and perhaps even the next.  These bugs were active….VERY active….throughout the day. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes.

Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that? Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.

Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

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Wolfgang writes… but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such?

That’s true.  It was a clean sandy bottom.  Not protected.  Well washed  by the wave action.  Vegatation about 30 to 50 yds out from shore. Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that?

I don’t think so.  You’re imagining. Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang

I still think they were Brown Drakes.  Looked a lot like the picture from the web site Warren posted.  But they were 6 & 8 for sure – not 10 & 12. Big guys!  I’ll dream of catching 10 lb. rainbow.  You dream of being blanketed by a hatch of monster mayflys. we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

Let me know the details. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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Wolfgang asks: Any ideas? ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access).

I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance, habitat, and habit of the target species.  Other sites have much of that information, but matching the information on various sites is daunting, to say the least.  I have found some references to individual species which sounded promising for one reason or another but in many cases have been unable to find photographs of the bugs in question….and on and on. Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason to be familiar with my target species. People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them.

Right, on all counts.  Both Ephemera and Isonychia look like good candidates based on photos, but both are questionable on the basis of size.  I don’t yet know enough about habit or habitat with regard to either genus.  Hexagenia limbata is definitely out for a variety of reasons. As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time. There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial confluence of circumstances. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes.

I just looked up Litobrancha.  Interestingly, the first hit I looked at was a UW Stevens Point website which contains a list of "AQUATIC INSECTS OF WISCONSIN RECENT SYNONYMS AT SPECIFIC OR HIGHER LEVELS" authored by none other than Stanley W. Szczytko, the aquatic entomologist I mentioned above, and Jeffrey J. Dimick, who used to be (and quite possibly still is) president of a local TU chapter in the area.  They list Litobrancha  in the "recent taxonomy" column next to Hexagenia (in part) under "prior taxonomy", and Litobrancha recurvata next to Hexagenia recurvata.  Looking at another dozen or sites, I have not yet found a photo.  I’ll keep working on this one. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.

Doesn’t sound like my bug.  I don’t know when they came off, but they were very active through a bright sunny day.  Of course, it must be remembered that I’m basing all of this on memories of an event that occurred more than forty years ago and that I was not much interested in close observation of the bugs at the time.  In all likelihood, I’ll never be able to solve this mystery.  I thought (and I still do) that my best bet was to put it out here and hope that someone just happens to be familiar with this hatch in this particular place.  I think it’s just about time for a brilliant lurker with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ephemeroptera to show him or herself and demonstrate how pitiful the rest of us really are.     Wolfgang thanks tom.

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  Well, roughly anyway.   Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

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Well, roughly anyway. My father’s cousin, Sam Friederich, owned a couple acres of land and a cottage (a dacha, as a Russian physicist I recently spoke with, "…not what YOU call a cottage here!" called it) on Kangaroo lake in Door County, Wisconsin.  For those not familiar with the area, Door County is the long finger of land which runs to the northeast up into Lake Michigan and thus forms Green Bay to the west. Kangaroo lake, http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=45.0325&lon=-87.15889 was, in the late 1950s, lightly developed.  There were a couple of small resorts, a few permanent year round homes, several cottages like the one we frequently stayed at, all of them on the larger, southern section of the lake south of the causeway, and a single very large estate on the island.  Whatever organic pollutants entered the lake as a result of human habitation were still minimal at that time.  In other words, the water was very clean and the biome had probably changed little since pre-Columbian times.  Kangaroo lake was a wonderful place to swim, even for city bred kids like me, as long as one didn’t allow one’s feet to touch the bottom.  The lake bed was marl, and thus about as icky a thing to come into contact with as was imagineable….except, of course, for the things that actually LIVED in that oozy bottom! One day all those things that lived in the bottom (although I didn’t realize their origin at the time) came out.  The air was filled with bugs.  Millions of bugs.  Maybe billions of bugs.  They were so bold or so crazed or stupid that they would land on anything or anybody.  Adult reassurances that they were perfectly harmless fell on deaf ears and neither I nor my brothers or sister could be coaxed to go outside for any reason…..threats and coercion worked, but you get the picture. In the ensuing years, I have often wondered exactly what those bugs were.  My interest in fly fishing, running close onto twenty years worth now, makes it easy to say with certainty that they were some variety of mayfly, but I still haven’t been able to identify the species. Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger.  They were a dark, slate gray to nearly black and, if memory serves after all these years, they were almost certainly duns or sub-imagos….dark, nearly opaque wings. On a couple of occasions in the last two or three years I’ve made occasional efforts to locate resources on line which might solve the mystery for me but have, as yet, had no success. Any ideas? Wolfgang

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Question:

John, that’s an inspiration to aspiring Grandads throughout ROFF. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Grandma and I had #1 and #2 grandsons this afternoon fishing Foothill Lake in Palo Alto.  #2 is two years old and, with Grandma, was tossing his Snoopy rod and reel with the practice casting plug everywhere, sometimes in the water <g!  #1 is 8 years old and ALWAYS catches more fish with Dad than with Grandpa <g!  #1 was tossing Powerbait, worms and marshmallows all over the lake with no luck but he was doing a good job.  Late in the day, the following occurred: He:  Look at that guy on the dock, Grandpa.  What is he fishing with? Me: A fly rod. He:  Isn’t that what you fish with? Me: Yes. He:  That looks like fun.  (Heart twinges) Me:  It is. He:  It looks hard. Me:  Well, it takes training.  Like bicycle riding or a skate board. He:  They’re easy, Grandpa. What’s he doing now? Me:  Stripping a fly imitating a minnow. He:  That looks like lots of fun (Heart Jumps). Me:  It is. He:  Would you show me how?  (BE STILL MY HEART) Me:  OK, whenever you want too. He:  Takes spin outfit, sits on rock and watches caster roll casting, double hauling and practicing long beautiful casts for good 5 minutes <WOW. She:  (Watching #1 watching fly caster) to me:  BE STILL MY HEART. Me:  OK Bud, it’s time to go. He:  Grandpa, will you teach me how to fly fish? HEART IN MY THROAT!!! Me:  Too choked up to say anything but SURE – Who’s Hungry? He:  Later he said:  "Mom Grandpa is going to show me how to fly fish!" She:  (Rolls eyes) Oh, he IS is he?  to me "How did you arrange that?" Me:  It’s in the genes <g!

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<snip A most delightful post, John. And a great lesson to one who pushed too hard to get my kids to embrace my sport.  Ah!!! But when the grandchildren come along. Patience, patience and patience. Perhaps.<G Thanks Kiyu

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You are indeed a lucky fellow.  Great post.  Looking forward to hearing how he progresses.  If only every 8 year old was as lucky …. Cheers and TLs. Natty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Grandma and I had #1 and #2 grandsons this afternoon fishing Foothill Lake in Palo Alto.  #2 is two years old and, with Grandma, was tossing his Snoopy rod and reel with the practice casting plug everywhere, sometimes in the water <g!  #1 is 8 years old and ALWAYS catches more fish with Dad than with Grandpa <g!  #1 was tossing Powerbait, worms and marshmallows all over the lake with no luck but he was doing a good job.  Late in the day, the following occurred: He:  Look at that guy on the dock, Grandpa.  What is he fishing with? Me: A fly rod. He:  Isn’t that what you fish with? Me: Yes. He:  That looks like fun.  (Heart twinges) Me:  It is. He:  It looks hard. Me:  Well, it takes training.  Like bicycle riding or a skate board. He:  They’re easy, Grandpa. What’s he doing now? Me:  Stripping a fly imitating a minnow. He:  That looks like lots of fun (Heart Jumps). Me:  It is. He:  Would you show me how?  (BE STILL MY HEART) Me:  OK, whenever you want too. He:  Takes spin outfit, sits on rock and watches caster roll casting, double hauling and practicing long beautiful casts for good 5 minutes <WOW. She:  (Watching #1 watching fly caster) to me:  BE STILL MY HEART. Me:  OK Bud, it’s time to go. He:  Grandpa, will you teach me how to fly fish? HEART IN MY THROAT!!! Me:  Too choked up to say anything but SURE – Who’s Hungry? He:  Later he said:  "Mom Grandpa is going to show me how to fly fish!" She:  (Rolls eyes) Oh, he IS is he?  to me "How did you arrange that?" Me:  It’s in the genes <g!

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Thanks, that story ruled!  Perhaps you should start shopping for 6 ft fly rods <g Best of luck and congratulations, — Warren Findley

It might be easier for him to learn with an 8 foot rod. About fifteen years ago a friend and I started his eight year old son with my 8 foot 6 weight Cortland. He still uses that rod. I will look forward to meeting him at Flyfish 2002 next year. Big Dale

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<snipped story of Grandson Thanks, that story ruled!  Perhaps you should start shopping for 6 ft fly rods <g Best of luck and congratulations, — Warren Findley

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Question:

i gotta disagree here… with shooting heads it is actually beneficial imo to go up in grains or overload the rod.  a 9 wt. will easily cast a 30′ LC-13 lead core shooting head.

I’ll give it a try.  So far however, my 8/9 rated rod throws a Teeny 200 far more comfortably than the 300 line.  I might require a rod with more backbone since currently I find that even after roll casting the line to the surface, I’ve got to sweep through a large angle with my casting arm before I can get the 300 line moving. Mu

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We normally over-line our heads at least one size above the rods line weight.  Most #9 rods would throw about a 300 grn. shooting head. This would be normally a number 10 head.  With leadcore it can go even higher. I would try anything from 28 to 30 feet of leadcore on a #9 rod. A #9 is a great size for throwing ‘lead’. You can use 30# Sunset ‘Amnesia’ mono running line or some other mono. Some use a  fly line running/shooting line like the SA/Mastery .35" salt water floating running line or this new Rio clear monocore .030" running line. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newbie question for all you experianced fly fishers here:  How do you go about making a sinking shooting head out of lead core line?  Hawaii is notorious for it’s lack of fly fishing supplies, and especially here on Maui.  Would like to try and make my own.  I have been using a WT 9 F, but would like to fish deeper.  Thanks for the input. Cortland markets a lead-core product called LC-13 because it is 13 grains/foot. The head (the first 30 feet on most of them) of a 9 weight fly line typically weighs 240 grains.  Therefore lengths of LC-13 from about 18′ to 22′ should feel reasonably comfortable on your 9 weight. If you go to a non-fly fishing shop that has a good selection of trolling gear they should have all sorts of lead core in various lb test ratings & consequently differing grains/foot. You’ll need a good scale to weigh the different lead core pieces.  Something that is accurate to the nearest gram should do. FYI: 1 ounce = 437.5 grains and 1 grain = 0.0648 grams Use a loop to loop connection to join your head to the running line. Mu i gotta disagree here… with shooting heads it is actually beneficial imo to go up in grains or overload the rod.  a 9 wt. will easily cast a 30′ LC-13 lead core shooting head.  takes a little practice, but it will work and cast well.  first, don’t do much false casting, use roll casts and water loading and learn the double haul (try to ignore any and all threads on roff about double hauling <G).  plus, the shorter you make the shooting head the worse imo it acts like a shooting head. cb

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newbie question for all you experianced fly fishers here:  How do you go about making a sinking shooting head out of lead core line?  Hawaii is notorious for it’s lack of fly fishing supplies, and especially here on Maui.  Would like to try and make my own.  I have been using a WT 9 F, but would like to fish deeper.  Thanks for the input. Cortland markets a lead-core product called LC-13 because it is 13 grains/foot. The head (the first 30 feet on most of them) of a 9 weight fly line typically weighs 240 grains.  Therefore lengths of LC-13 from about 18′ to 22′ should feel reasonably comfortable on your 9 weight. If you go to a non-fly fishing shop that has a good selection of trolling gear they should have all sorts of lead core in various lb test ratings & consequently differing grains/foot. You’ll need a good scale to weigh the different lead core pieces.  Something that is accurate to the nearest gram should do. FYI: 1 ounce = 437.5 grains and 1 grain = 0.0648 grams Use a loop to loop connection to join your head to the running line. Mu

i gotta disagree here… with shooting heads it is actually beneficial imo to go up in grains or overload the rod.  a 9 wt. will easily cast a 30′ LC-13 lead core shooting head.  takes a little practice, but it will work and cast well.  first, don’t do much false casting, use roll casts and water loading and learn the double haul (try to ignore any and all threads on roff about double hauling <G).  plus, the shorter you make the shooting head the worse imo it acts like a shooting head. cb

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Newbie question for all you experianced fly fishers here:  How do you go about making a sinking shooting head out of lead core line?  Hawaii is notorious for it’s lack of fly fishing supplies, and especially here on Maui.  Would like to try and make my own.  I have been using a WT 9 F, but would like to fish deeper.  Thanks for the input.

Cortland markets a lead-core product called LC-13 because it is 13 grains/foot. The head (the first 30 feet on most of them) of a 9 weight fly line typically weighs 240 grains.  Therefore lengths of LC-13 from about 18′ to 22′ should feel reasonably comfortable on your 9 weight. If you go to a non-fly fishing shop that has a good selection of trolling gear they should have all sorts of lead core in various lb test ratings & consequently differing grains/foot. You’ll need a good scale to weigh the different lead core pieces.  Something that is accurate to the nearest gram should do. FYI: 1 ounce = 437.5 grains and 1 grain = 0.0648 grams Use a loop to loop connection to join your head to the running line. Mu

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Question:

Paul Goodwin writes: I’ld have to say that Waynes post get’s my vote for the best ever clave report. That’s for sure!  A wonderful wordsmith is our wayno.  "Piss running down a handicap ramp" — not exactly a sentence you get to use very often.  Well done, counselor.

Must have been long enough that it got lost somewhere, I never saw it on bellsouth.net. I’ll just have to take everyone’s word for it that it had internal rhythm. <g — Charlie…

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Charlie Choc: Must have been long enough that it got lost somewhere, I never saw it on bellsouth.net. I’ll just have to take everyone’s word for it that it had internal rhythm. <g — Charlie…

I didn’t get it on aol, and it wasn’t posted on Newsone.net.  I had to go to deja.com to get a copy of it.  And yes, it *is* long, but very funny with wonderful "internal rythm".  Got some external stuff too. Dave

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I didn’t get it on aol, and it wasn’t posted on Newsone.net.  I had to go to deja.com to get a copy of it.  And yes, it *is* long, but very funny with wonderful "internal rythm".  Got some external stuff too.

It is good, Tom Brown email’d me a copy (thanks Tom, and Wayno too<g). — Charlie…

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<snipped for bandwidth conservation ONLY) Excellent dissertation Mr. Harrison!!! — All fishermen are liars ‘cept you n me, and I’m starting to have doubts about you! www.fishticker.com

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i had to repeat damn near everything i said, even though i was talkin loud enough to be heard next door.

That’s cause New Englanders all talk funny. They gotta put the cah in the gahrage and then go get some chowdah. happily i had a little time to read some exciting new law review articles,

Ain’t any such thing. i am certain that the promising new business relationships i nurtured during my time in maine will help reward your efforts.

Little wayno’s Outfitters (We Never Close) is moving north? Gonna surround yourself with yankees? In a land where you can’t get grits nohow, not even the instant kind at the Safeway? "Goddamn, well I declare! Have you seen the like?Their walls are  built from  cannonballs; their motto is ‘don’t tread on me’" -Uncle Jerry

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I’ld have to say that Waynes post get’s my vote for the best ever clave report.

ditto for me, "casting pearls amongst the swine" as it were. Peter

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Paul Goodwin writes: I’ld have to say that Waynes post get’s my vote for the best ever clave report.

That’s for sure!  A wonderful wordsmith is our wayno.  "Piss running down a handicap ramp" — not exactly a sentence you get to use very often.  Well done, counselor. But, the "biggest brookie of my life" was a mere 15 inches.  I am afraid he’d shit his drawers if he got into one of the 22+ inchers!   <g Dave LaCourse, Bottom Dweller, home resting from the terrible ordeal of leading a bunch of reprobates on my home waters, but ready to go back

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I’ld have to say that Waynes post get’s my vote for the best ever clave report.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to:  eleni t. harrison 5216 michaux rd greensboro, nc 27410 tuesday, sept [snip] ah beeyuh budeeyuh budeeyuh;  that’s all, folks… your friend in the old north state wayno

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You forgot a couple:        to:  irs, audit division        regional office        raleigh, n.c. to whom it may concern: as an attorney in good standing with n.c. bar, i resent your implication that i would in any way misuse the u.s. tax code, including the generous deductions allowed by the rules governing business entertainment deductions.  you have, i feel, improperly disallowed a large number of deductions, even medical expense deductions, as a result of a trip taken for the purposes of interviewing prospective clients.  let me assure you that every name on the attached list (styled "state’s exhibit a") is now, or shortly will be, in need of professional help.   as to the expenses, "misc:," again, let me assure you that all were legitimate.  for example, one expense, "$250.00 – Translator and translation expenses," was an absolute necessity, but unfortunately, those ill-spoken yankees don’t even understand money, and would only accept payment in the form of alcoholic beverages, hence, the receipt from "Dickey’s Crab House and Package Store." i can further assure you that deduction labeled "$862.50 – dr. hooter’s" is indeed a legitimate medical expense, as several in the party were dire need of attention at the close of the trip.  while i understand the reluctance to accept a receipt on a cocktail napkin, i cannot control the use of business forms by the medical profession. in closing, please free to contact me at any time should you need further supporting documentation.  further, i will be happy to personally recreate the entire trip, including reassembling the persons relevant, should you desire to send an investigator to personally the instant facts of the case at bar. i remain, a. wayne harrison             to:  all managing partners of             harrison, north, cooke and landreth, attorneys at law             221 commerce st             greensboro, nc 27401 gentlemen: "kinder, gentler irs", my ass!  get me the hell outta here! waiting, a. wayne harrison

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        to:  eleni t. harrison         5216 michaux rd         greensboro, nc 27410         tuesday, sept         well, dovins, me and the kid from raleigh (by way of utah) made it to portland safe and sound.  flying in from the ocean side, the harbor looked just like a giant goldfish pond, ringed with rocks, and dotted with tiny sails.  ol louie showed up with a handmade sign and groucho glasses.  he didn’t need a fake nose.         we drove across the state at a crisp rate, with the audi humming, feeling taut and confident as this wonderful old bastard carried us ever deeper into the woods of maine, with brittle, entertaining chatter flowing from all inside, to dissapate among the spruce by the roadside along with the gasses from the twin pipes.  the houses seemed to line the roads like spectators at a race, no more than one or two lines deep, pressed close upon us by the dark green trees and rising hills.  the buildings themselves were surprisingly delicate, and reminded me of the farmhouses of the old money families from the rowan county hinterlands.  i would have thought the weight of north country winters would have made for sterner, rougher homes.          we stopped in a little burg called norway to buy some emergency waders.  the wooden floors creaked as we entered, and the accents of the owner and the occupants might as well have come from argentina; they were strangers to my unaccustomed ear.  but the smiles weren’t forced, and i left with the memories of nearly fifty years ago, when i walked out of the same kind of place with my first fly rod in my hand, with hopes of fish captured pulling me toward the car.         we arrived at lake richardson with the audi clicking as she cooled from the workout, and motored steadily across a gorgeous body of water, gin clear from edge to center, and held together by the lovely, sloping hills that pass for mountains way up here.  we could see the camp in the distance, little brown cabins hunkered down together, pressed closely by the bright red barn of the damkeeper on one end and a bright white stand of birches on the other.  we could see the figures awaiting our arrival at the dock, and i soon could make out the familiar figure of indian joe mcintosh and two females. one of them, short and bright eyed, welcomed us with fearless enthusiasm and hugs that shattered any suggestion that we could be strangers.  the second figure was taller; thin, almost delicate, with a smile just barely broader than the mona lisa.  her name, it turned out, was joanne lacourse; the wife of the luckiest sonofabitch in new england.  her companion was dene mcintosh, who could turn a wake into the best damn party you ever were fortunate enough to attend.         getting settled was as easy as finding your way back to a place you have been before, with just enough time since your last visit to make the homecoming a surprise.  peetah charles showed up, and jeff conelly, with his friend benet (pronounced "benay").  and thank god, there was ol jeffy miller, pride of the greenville nc bar, and a man who loves his whiskey almost as much as his time on the water.         the next morning i was awakened by the dulcet tones of louie’s voice, gently chiding me to come to breakfast.  after a bracing shower, i joined our little band for a terrific breakfast, served by a charming, hard working young lady named kessie.  our crowd and a pair of older marrieds were the only guests at the lodge, and meals were both delicious and quiet.  they served a dessert called "lemon pudding" that is sure to show up on the next federal controlled substances list, ranked just after crack cocaine in degree of danger.         peetah and i walked about twenty minutes downstream to a place where the river flows into a second lake, much smaller than the one on which the main camp lies, called by the locals "pond in the river", or simply "pondy".  the river mouth was split by an island, which was reached by boat, capt. lacourse at the oars, and we fished there most of the morning.  i caught the largest brook trout of my life on a streamer, thrashing the water with a sinking line and stripping in as if i was churning butter.  the place itself was right out of a chet reneson water color; the first loon i’ve ever seen was fishing in the pond.  it was a much larger bird than i had expected, but its call was wonderously haunting, just as i had hoped.         during the evening’s socializing i found that dene and joanne had been exploring the lake in kayaks available at the camp.  they were excited about the experience, and when i expressed some interest in sharing their next excursion, the roff navy was born.  in the morning after breakfast we pointed the bows of our seaworthy crafts toward the rising sun and double paddled into legend.  the surface of the lake was flat and slick as cellophane, and you could look clear through the water at every depth.  the peace and beauty of the trip was punctuated with a few narrow escapes as joanne, our human torpedo, became directionally challenged from time to time.  admiral mcintosh led our initial assault on a starkly beautiful rock island in the center of the bay, and concluded our invasion successfully by, um, christening its granite surface.  you would get along wonderfully with these two terrific women, and i can’t wait for the day that you all get together.         the rest of the trip has been fascinating, highlighted by the arrival of the three daves and salmon fly, yankees but decent fellers every one.  we had a helluva bonfire at lakeside, but i was tired and missed the last of the revelry.  you know how i have been trying to reduce my alchohol consumption, and i take your advice in the matter to heart, of course.         one more thing:  if lakewood camps were located fifty miles south of asheville, it would be the prettiest place in the country; but even though it’s north of the mason dixon, it’s no worse than second place.  and david lacourse and his incredible wife made the entire experience unforgettable.  their energy and concern for the needs of all of us was a wonder.         as i write this, zimbo and i are seated in the cincinnati airport, waiting for the last section of the long flight that will bring me back to you and the kiddles.  give them a hug from the old man, and don’t wait up for me.         love         awh         to:  james mcdonald roberts         132 court street         greenville nc 2499         james:  what a goddam trip.  i met up with that kid i told you about that makes the great little bamboo rods so early on tuesday am that i felt like a freaking rooster.  the guy’s name is zimmerman, but i call him zimbo.  helluva good kid, and so damn excited about this chance to catch something bigger than a goldfish that he reminded me of keith sedberry the night sweet virginia overman promised him a little leg behind the sigma chi house, back in ‘68.         we got to maine about midday after an obviously meaningless trip to cincinnati.  damn airlines must be run by yankee republicans. anyway, ol louie laplac damn near burnt that silver audi to a crisp on those little two laners across the southern tip of maine.  i didn’t know if zimbo was gonna shit or throwup, but you could have gotten even money on both.  we had to stop at some godforsaken little sporting goods store in podunk maine where everybody was mumblin about "neah" and "fah" and kept ending every sentence with "a-yuh" or some such yankee shit.  i had to repeat damn near everything i said, even though i was talkin loud enough to be heard next door.         well, we drive i mean *deep* into the evergreens and long, sloping hills, with birches everywhere, great looking country, no doubt.  we cross this beautiful lake, and arrive at our destination, a group of little cabins all bunched together, leaning up against each other at differerent angles, like if you open the bathroom door and don’t block it with a rock the damn thing slams shut before you can get inside.  anyway, we get there, and beside ol injun joe and peetah, who you have met before, there are these two great lookin chicks who turn out to be married to ij and louie.  that’s the good news.  the bad news is they are hopelessly in love with the two old fools, and have about as much use for me as tits on a boar hog.  oh, well, they were still tons of fun, and good sports to boot.         ol jeffy was there, and met me at the dock with a fresh see-through.  i swear that boy is as good as pitt county has to give. and fishes his *ass* off, i mean.         the fishing is the damndest thing you have ever seen.  big, i mean *big* f***in trout and salmon, but you got to fish with these tiny damn flies just like you read about in fly fisherman magazine, and if you catch one of the bastards they laugh and turn inexorably toward the fast current, and bingo—tie on another teeny weeny.  and when i mean fast current, i am *not* kidding you.  damn place makes hazel creek look like piss runnin down a handicap ramp.  you wade that water, you die.  the deal is you fish in about a thirty yard semi-circle, pounding that water relentlessly, changing flies if you don’t hook up.  i swear to god peetah charles must have tossed the entire f***ing inventory of a fair sized orvis shop in the water at this crowd of salmon that fed all day on bugs so tiny you couldn’t see em.  he caught, in his inimitable terminology, "the odd fish", and he is damn good.  but, it is a challenge, and the feeling you get when one of those freight trains hooks you up and heads for the black runs can’t be matched in the appalachians.  and you should have seen the newbie from utah.  if he wasn’t fishin, he was talkin about fishin. he did really well.  quick learner, and fun travel with, even though it’s safe to say that you and he have …different tastes….which reminds me:  jesus, did i get smashed every night.  if it weren’t for the fact that the power goes off all over camp automatically at 11:30 every night, my liver would have called 911.         and, hell man, the place

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Question:

I may be flying into Asheville, North Carolina and driving to Greeneville, Tennessee, so I would appreciate any suggestions for cold water flyfishing Close to these places. Thanks, Jim Barna

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I may be flying into Asheville, North Carolina and driving to Greeneville, Tennessee, so I would appreciate any suggestions for cold water flyfishing Close to these places. Thanks, Jim Barna

Jim, There is said to be 4000 miles (and I’m doing my darndest to fish every mile) of trout waters in NC…. it’s kinda like take your pick. Here’s a good informational link run by a fishin’ bud. http://www.wnctrout.com Tight lines, Walt — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

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Thanks Walt! Jim Barna

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I may be flying into Asheville, North Carolina and driving to Greeneville, Tennessee, so I would appreciate any suggestions for cold water flyfishing Close to these places. Thanks, Jim Barna Jim, There is said to be 4000 miles (and I’m doing my darndest to fish every mile) of trout waters in NC…. it’s kinda like take your pick. Here’s a good informational link run by a fishin’ bud. http://www.wnctrout.com Tight lines, Walt — Walter G. Winter Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

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Question:

BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart Have you hooked a chinook?

Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though. Of  the species I’ve caught ( I admit to being an Atlantic virgin), steelhead are the most unpredictable, one second they are sulking deep, the next the line is slack and they are doing five or six consecutive jumps and then off for another long run right on the surface. unbelievable! Stevo the experienced (yah right)

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Now why would those in the east want to stock those damn silly, wimp western salmon that only procreate once then leave their rotting, stinking carcasses in the water, when they have their own robust salmon that can procreate many times? Chris Richer (east of the flat spot) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Stevo the wanderer (NOT) <g Dave L.

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Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.  The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g Dave LaCourse

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Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though.

I’ve seen plenty of hooked chinook jump & splash.  Saw a 20+ lber come about 3 feet out of the water last Thursday on the Pere Marquette in Michigan.  Maybe the fish here are different.  They tend to darken up really quick.  I’ve seen lots of photos of silver fish caught out of western rivers. Mu

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Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.  The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g

Is that the Sebago Lake strain?  Also, what’s a Sunapee? Mu

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Mu Young: <<Is that the Sebago Lake strain?  Also, what’s a Sunapee? No.  Not coming out of lakes/rivers in Labrador! I believe the Sunapee is actually a land-locked Arctic Char (Salvelinus alpinus).  It’s called the Blueback Trout in some Maine waters. Dave

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Yup, up to 45 lbs. (unfortunately I have yet to get a real big one), but they rarely break the surface, preferring to sulk deep and do their running near the bottom. Unbelievable power though. I’ve seen plenty of hooked chinook jump & splash.  Saw a 20+ lber come about 3 feet out of the water last Thursday on the Pere Marquette in Michigan.  Maybe the fish here are different.  They tend to darken up really quick.  I’ve seen lots of photos of silver fish caught out of western rivers. Mu

  That’s only because its alot easier to jump out of your waters and tailwalk, being so full of chemicals and all <g…. Hey look on the bright side another 10 years or so and you won’t even need a boat to go fishing on the "lakes" "lake michigan…..too thick to drink, too thin to plow" Stevo the troller

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Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Ouananiche.  The Atlantic Salmon that is land-locked.  It’s also known as the Lake Salmon.

Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) The largest I have caught was about 7 pounds, but I have heard of much bigger fish, especially in Labrador and Quebec.  It didn’t come from BC either.  <g Dave LaCourse

  Cheers

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Steve Cooper: <<Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) Yep!  One and the same.  <g

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Steve Cooper: <<Oh you mean those big trout (genus Salmo) Yep!  One and the same.  <g

Ah hell before you know it I’ll be able to catch those on the West coast as well. Just let our salmon farms screw up and have a few more large escapements like the 30,000 yearlings that just escaped a Port McNiel farm, or the 60,000 smolts involuntarily released in Washington’s Puget Sound, and we may have to beat these things off our lines just to get at a good natural wild salmon.

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BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

Have you hooked a chinook? Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/

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Have you hooked a chinook?

No, but I did once know a guy who tried to drown a brown, get nookie brom a brookie, and pass a bass!

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I did’nt forget them.  It was about Atlantic salmon, "King of the Sportfish".  I agree about steelies.  They are one of the best (of course)! Land locked salmon are also right up there.  Although they don’t get too big in Maine, they are a ball to watch tail walking. (I hope this doesn’t start a thread:  *MY* fish is better’n your fish!

But,… but,… but…. my fish IS better than your fish…… and my dad can so nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah nyah. BTW Dave, being a naive westerner (we don’t get out much) which landlocked "introduced from the great waters of British Columbia" species are we talking about? Stevo the wanderer (NOT) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <g Dave L.

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Sheldonn Michael Pardy writes: <<If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day. Uhhhhhh, you fought a 10 pound fish for 1 1/2 hours?  What ever happened to the old rule of a pound a minute?  I realize Atlantic Salmon are the fighters of all time, but an hour and a half.  Seems exceedingly long, sir.  I will agree about the bass, however. Dave L.

 Dave Not just exceedingly long, but lethal as well. Although Atlantics are well known for both their fighting prowess and tenacity towards survival, this fish if released was probably dead shortly thereafter. The lactic acid buildup in the muscular tissues (remember that salmonids are basically on BIG muscle) would likely have been lethal. Nothing to be particularly of, Sheldon. BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

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1.5 hours? You are full of shit. Next time you take an assignment as a flack, learn how to lie creditably. Dave

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Steve Cooper: <<BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday I did’nt forget them.  It was about Atlantic salmon, "King of the Sportfish".  I agree about steelies.  They are one of the best (of course)! Land locked salmon are also right up there.  Although they don’t get too big in Maine, they are a ball to watch tail walking.   (I hope this doesn’t start a thread:  *MY* fish is better’n your fish! <g Dave L.

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David Snedeker, the scribe, writes: <<1.5 hours? You are full of shit. Next time you take an assignment as a flack, learn how to lie creditably. ROFL.  Don’t mix your words, David.  Tell the fool *exactly* what you think of him.  That’s what I love about you, David; you are about as subtle as a nuclear weapon.  <g Dave L. (the calm Dave)  d;0)

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One and a half hours to land a ten pound fish???  I think, perhaps, that you need a bit heavier outfit.  If you want to be in a position to release salmon and steelhead in some degree of health, you have to get them in and released in a lot less time.  I suspect that your ten pound Atlantic Salmon was one that you kept.  If not, I doubt if he lived very long after being released. Barry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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        If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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Sheldon, Sounds like fun. When is the best time to go? Bob Elliott, Rochester, NY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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        If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. …

I’d love to. When the provincial government repeals those pernicious guide laws I’ll drop a dime in Newfoundland and Labrador too. Until then, I won’t fish there. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

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Hey, Something fishy here.  If you took that long to land a little 10 pounder, you were abusing the fish and probably harming its chances of survival (assuming that you released it). Regards, Yuji Sakuma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day.

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Sheldonn Michael Pardy writes:

<<If anyone wants some real flyfishing fun, come to Newfoundland, and go for some of our Atlantic salmon. These fish have a lot of fight, and I once had one fighting for one and a half hours. 10 whopping pounds!!! That beats bass any day. Uhhhhhh, you fought a 10 pound fish for 1 1/2 hours?  What ever happened to the old rule of a pound a minute?  I realize Atlantic Salmon are the fighters of all time, but an hour and a half.  Seems exceedingly long, sir.  I will agree about the bass, however. Dave L.

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<a bunch of stuff he should have proof read first!!!!! Not just exceedingly long, but lethal as well. Although Atlantics are well known for both their fighting prowess and tenacity towards survival, this fish if released was probably dead shortly thereafter. The lactic acid buildup in the muscular tissues (remember that salmonids are basically on

<<<that should be ONE not on BIG muscle) would likely have been lethal. Nothing to be particularly of, Sheldon.

That should be "not particularly PROUD of, Sheldon" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW Dave you have obviously forgotten the true king of sportfish the steelhead. I’ll take their tail walking antics and consecutive 100 yard screaming runs anyday Stevo the braggart

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Question:

Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Relax man…this isn’t a race… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

While some may not see fly fishing a stream as a race, those who know better realize it is a race. We have only so many years to spend on earth experiencing life. Therefore the faster we fish a stream, the more fishing we get done in a fixed amount of time. The more stream we fish, the more fish we catch. I would suggest fishing at least at a fast walk – about 4 – 6 mph in order to fish the greatest number of stream miles in a day. Al Marlowe Life – it gives us something to do while we’re waiting to die.

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_______ For as long as it holds your interest. GINK

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Relax man…this isn’t a race… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… While some may not see fly fishing a stream as a race, those who know better realize it is a race. We have only so many years to spend on earth experiencing life. Therefore the faster we fish a stream, the more fishing we get done in a fixed amount of time. The more stream we fish, the more fish we catch. I would suggest fishing at least at a fast walk – about 4 – 6 mph in order to fish the greatest number of stream miles in a day.

And you spend your entire "life" running from place to place.  No thanks, I do enough of that at work.  Fishing, for me, is one of the far too few times to relax and enjoy life.   "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."                       — Henry David Thoreau Or worse in my book, they fish all their lives and it is ONLY fish that they are after. Just my $0.02,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Relax man…this isn’t a race… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… While some may not see fly fishing a stream as a race, those who know better realize it is a race. We have only so many years to spend on earth experiencing life. Therefore the faster we fish a stream, the more fishing we get done in a fixed amount of time. The more stream we fish, the more fish we catch. I would suggest fishing at least at a fast walk – about 4 – 6 mph in order to fish the greatest number of stream miles in a day. Al Marlowe

Al, you try and fish 4-6 miles an hour on the streams in my neck of the woods you’ll probably end up dead. No, not from other flyfishers (but I can see that happening), from breaking your neck when you fall. I feel good at a real slow pace…no hurry…try and hit every piece of possible holding water…and if I go 1/2 mile or 200 yards in 2-3 hours..so be it…. Anyway…my point is it really isn’t a race…it’s an experience…why rush it? –WAlt

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While some may not see fly fishing a stream as a race, those who know better realize it is a race. We have only so many years to spend on earth experiencing life. Therefore the faster we fish a stream, the more fishing we get done in a fixed amount of time. The more stream we fish, the more fish we catch. I would suggest fishing at least at a fast walk – about 4 – 6 mph in order to fish the greatest number of stream miles in a day. Al Marlowe Al, you try and fish 4-6 miles an hour on the streams in my neck of the woods you’ll probably end up dead. No, not from other flyfishers (but I can see that happening), from breaking your neck when you fall. I feel good at a real slow pace…no hurry…try and hit every piece of possible holding water…and if I go 1/2 mile or 200 yards in 2-3 hours..so be it…. Anyway…my point is it really isn’t a race…it’s an experience…why rush it? –WAlt

        you go, walter.  can you imagine some sonofabitch trying to fish up snowbird creek in late april at 4-6 mph.  within twenty minutes, his dead body would be doing 4-6 mph downstream.         a. wayne harrison

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Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Wayne

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Some streams, there is no need to move around at all.  You can fish all day on the same pool.  Of course, it’s enjoyable to wander around and see the sights on a stream, too.  The correst answer is, whatever you feel like doing. Personally, on an unfamiliar stream i will wander a lot, just to learn my way around.  Once you know a stream well, you tend to go straight to where you believe the action will be, based on your experience.  Also, especially on smaller streams, one spot will yield only so many fish in one session, so it behooves you to move on. Wayne, fish at whatever speed you want.  Stop to smell the roses or cover the water like a possessed man.  Take a nap on the bank or refuse rest or nourishment until you catch the 20th fish, whatever suits your fancy.  This is a sport where style and individuality rule. Pete C

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I’m used to casting to sighted fish.  Basically that means I keep stalking upstream until I spot one. If that means walking 3 miles up and 3 miles back in the day, so be it. In most river systems there is water that I only give a cursory inspection simply because it isn’t "fishy". Of course, there are plenty of places that should be covered with both eyes and rod. I recommend the book ‘Stalking Trout – a serious fisherman’s guide’ by Les Hill and Graeme Marshall published by Halcyon Press for more information on where you should be looking. The book cost me around NZ$30.00. Hope this helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Wayne

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This post shows the difference between dry and nymph fishing. Dry fly fishermen usually move along because after a fish raises once or twice you’ve either spooked or caught the bugger and his dry fly feeding buddies in the pool.. Nymphing is slower because you can dredge fish out of a big hole all day. Giving the fish a few minutes rest is usually enough. I tend to move faster in unfamiliar waters like the last posting indicated. Some times I slow down because the place on the river is just too beautiful to leave. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m used to casting to sighted fish.  Basically that means I keep stalking upstream until I spot one. If that means walking 3 miles up and 3 miles back in the day, so be it. In most river systems there is water that I only give a cursory inspection simply because it isn’t "fishy". Of course, there are plenty of places that should be covered with both eyes and rod. I recommend the book ‘Stalking Trout – a serious fisherman’s guide’ by Les Hill and Graeme Marshall published by Halcyon Press for more information on where you should be looking. The book cost me around NZ$30.00. Hope this helps. Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Wayne

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Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Wayne

It varies so widely as to be impossible to answer.  Last week, I spent two hours fishing 100 yards of crick, and caught probably 30 fish. Earlier this year, I fished 6 miles of river over the course of a day. Last month, I fished two miles in a morning. I think the other person’s answer is about on;  fish fast enough, or slow enough, so that you enjoy it.  I have found that fishing slow and carefully is sometimes necessary for success, other times, hotrodding from spot to spot looking for scattered fish is the answer.   Questions you might ask are, do I know there are fish in front of me? Do I know if they are concentrated or scattered?  Can I see rising, feeding, or holding fish?  Have I caught fish in this spot or this type of spot before?  Have I seen an old codger repeatedly fish this spot? What is the old codger doing?   If I know there are fish around, I try to figure out what to do to catch them, rather than running to hell and gone.  If I think I know what works, and I’m not catching fish here, I move.  If I don’t have a clue, I sit down, smoke a cigar, and watch.   A lot of times, what I try to watch is some guy who is 20 years older than me, and see what it is that he does.  I try to fish spots that have the highest codger index (=sum(age of fishermen)/number of fishermen). This works for me.  It works well enough that from time to time, I look up, and see some guy on a bank, smoking a cigar, watching.   — Andrew Brunette

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Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down?

Relax man…this isn’t a race… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."                      — Henry David Thoreau Why doesn’t anyone ever post the third line of that wonderful prose…"it’s the chicks, man." That would clear up a lot of misconceptions about the sport. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

Very, very funny … I needed the laugh this morning….. thanks .. it’s the chicks, man." …. you just have to love that line .. — #  D. Stew McLeod … working at The Boeing Company .. in Renton, WA. #"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; # an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." #    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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Fish a river until dark and then take up night fishing until morning then start over again. If nobody misses you or is worried about your absence carry on. Dave Fitton Otago.  New Zealand – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Relax man…this isn’t a race… — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… While some may not see fly fishing a stream as a race, those who know better realize it is a race. We have only so many years to spend on earth experiencing life. Therefore the faster we fish a stream, the more fishing we get done in a fixed amount of time. The more stream we fish, the more fish we catch. I would suggest fishing at least at a fast walk – about 4 – 6 mph in order to fish the greatest number of stream miles in a day. Al Marlowe Life – it gives us something to do while we’re waiting to die.

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I tend to fish however the mood strikes me.  Some days I head to a small creek where I’m not likely to run into anyone and just start heading upstream at a steady pace giving each holding lie 3 or 4 casts and moving on, other times I head to where flyfishing is more of a social endeavor (ie Other Anglers Around) and really scour a short section of water.  If your having a good time and maybe even catching a few I’d guess your going at just the right pace. Good Fishing, C. Segina

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[deleted] I’ve fished some streams for a long time – 20 years or so.

I know Al.  Your name has been synonomous with the Colorado outdoors for a good part of my life. I rely on your book "Hiking in the Flat Tops" (exact title..???) as much for content as for the image of hiking amongst true grandeur it connotates for those times that I can not go. It is here, then, that I thank you personally. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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[deleted] I’ve fished some streams for a long time – 20 years or so. I know Al.  Your name has been synonomous with the Colorado outdoors for a good part of my life. I rely on your book "Hiking in the Flat Tops" (exact title..???) as much for content as for the image of hiking amongst true grandeur it connotates for those times that I can not go. It is here, then, that I thank you personally. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

I hope I haven’t written anything in that book that caused you to get lost. Have to admit it’s a great area. We’re heading up there for a week at Trappers Lake. Al Marlowe

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______ For as long as it holds your interest. GINK

I’ve fished some streams for a long time – 20 years or so. Al Marlowe

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Being new at fly fishing I have been listening to experienced fisherman discuss fishing 3 to 4 miles of stream or river a day.  I find I fish at the rate of about 200 yards per hour.  Of course difficulty of terrain and water conditions impact greatly but can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving upstream or down? Wayne

Howdee Wayne, I think I would move faster if I was not catching any fish and slower if I was catching fish. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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snip, snip…can you guys give me a feel for about how fast you are moving

upstream or down?< Fly fishing is for the soul, and therefore, not a timed event. Dennis Loveland, CO

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[deleted] "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."                      — Henry David Thoreau

Why doesn’t anyone ever post the third line of that wonderful prose…"it’s the chicks, man." That would clear up a lot of misconceptions about the sport. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Hello, I will have occassion to travel to Montana in September or October of this year.   can anyone suggest spots to flyfish – is that a reasonable time of ear to fish in those places? any info would be helpful: please email to either: or thanks, earl "So having said, a while he stood, expecting  Their universal shout and high applause  To fill his ear; when, contrary, he hears,  On all sides from innumerable tongues  A dismal universal hiss, the sound  Of public scorn."                 Paradise Lost. Book 10 (lines 504 – 509)                           John Milton

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The Mo. below Wolf Creek would be a good place to fish. Also walking in to the ponds in the Pintlars or Pioneers would also be fun. You would need to be mindful of snow.

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Try the Big Hole in September between Wisdom and Wise River.  Accessible and pretty good fishing.

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Greetings. I made a reference to Chatham being the only GREAT flyfishing writer alive today (please, this is NOT a John Gierach troll….). I have a specific honest and open-minded question that I ask at the bottom of this post…. Someone responed (I need to go see whom)…"What about Thomas McGuane ?" Well, I wasn’t really sure and hadn’t read any T. McGuane recently, so I read "The Longest Silence" yesterday. I must say that what I read really got me in a lather, it was difficult for me to even get off page one and I recalled my previous feeling for the man. It was not GREAT writing, far from it. The problem was that he made reference to meat hunters and their gunnysack full mentality and how if he hears one more person ask him "is they good to et ?" he would go nuts (which is fine and dandy, he is allowed to have an opinion) but then he went on to (discussing the pursuit of permit) say that "if you have one mounted….", (what you could expect), etc. So I read (in no uncertain terms)… 1) Hunting for meat is beyond reproach. 2) Hunting for a trophy is acceptible. And, as far as I’m concerned….McGuane can pound sand… But that was just the tip…I felt like he was bragging the whole time…about his fearless hauling ass in his overpowered skiff and ricking life and limb in the process. Actually "Bragging" describes his writing farily accurately to me (kind of the way I feel when I read Wulff). Does he write well ?  Perhaps, if you would call inflammatory remarks and bragging ‘writing well’.  A GREAT fishing writer should not rely on this sort of thing, IMO, however popular with his constituents.  It simply is never necessary in the telling of any story by a GREAT writer. I immediately reread Chathams "No Wind in the Willows" (both short stories are in Sports Afield "A Flyfishers Reader") and was brought back to a semblance of calm. Not unlike the transient calmness brought on by the writings in "Waterlog" In fact, if you want me to mellow out entirely, pool together and buy me a subscription to this, the best fishing periodical in the world (Gray’s Sporting News excepted). I guess if asked to surmise… Chatham took me fishing. McGuane took me with him while he fished. Chatham had ’soul’. McGuane only spouted. What can I say, I loved the former but loathed the latter. I’d hate to formulate an opinion on one short story…thus my question…. Can someone point me to "good" McGuane ? Or maybe they meant Thomas Macintyre ? — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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And no-one could accuse you of making "inflammatory remarks" could they Tim??? — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings. Does he write well ?  Perhaps, if you would call inflammatory remarks and bragging ‘writing well’.  A GREAT fishing writer should not rely on this

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And no-one could accuse you of making "inflammatory remarks" could they Tim???

But, uh…with all due respect… We were discussing GREAT fishing author’s and not… "The Efficacy of Beligerance in an Internet Flyfishing Newsgroup…". But if you wanna start that thread….go for it ! — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Moe asked: <Can someone point me to "good" McGuane ? Impossible.  Go reread Hemingway.

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It’s supposed to be funny!  I think he’s as cynical as they come and I tend to like that sort of thing.  Have you read the Sporting Club?  It makes a lot of fun of the "sports" and they (we) deserve it– in a good way.

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I am willing to wager that any one sentence chosen at random from McGuane’s "Essays On Sport" is more worthy of our attention than anything that will ever pop into your pea brain.  (For example, unlike you, he knows how to spell the word "acceptable.")   If you fish no better than you write, I doubt you’ll ever pose a serious threat to permit.

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It’s a bit harsh to pull someone up for a spelling mistake. Not using the spell checker yes, fair enough but not for a spelling mistake! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am willing to wager that any one sentence chosen at random from McGuane’s "Essays On Sport" is more worthy of our attention than anything that will ever pop into your pea brain.  (For example, unlike you, he knows how to spell the word "acceptable.")   If you fish no better than you write, I doubt you’ll ever pose a serious threat to permit.

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I made a reference to Chatham being the only GREAT flyfishing writer alive today (please, this is NOT a John Gierach troll….). I have a specific honest and open-minded question that I ask at the bottom of this post….

Wait a minute, I seem to recall a post not so long ago where you maintained a certain writer (whose name I won’t mention) couldn’t possibly be a GREAT fly fishing writer because eighth graders wouldn’t ever be required to read his work (creating a situation where there might only be five "great" writers in all the history of man). Is Chatham required reading in junior high? Tight lines, TC

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Moe asked: <Can someone point me to "good" McGuane ? Impossible.  Go reread Hemingway.

if there is one thing I hate it’s people using Hemingway as an example of a great FF writer. A great writer he was, perhaps the best of a great lot the US of A produced this century. But as a fisherman and a writer about FF he was just a duffer; a mere pedestrian. Most who fished with him ( and lived to regret the experience) – remarked he wasn’t much of a fisherman.Much of his reputation was thanks to his talent for bragging and fabrication (he was a writer of fiction after all!) Hemmingway publically admitted to admiring Haig-Brown – enough said. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Read McGuane’s short story "Molly" in an Outside Chance. If you have ever owned a bird dog you will laugh your ass off.

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Excellent point on McGuane’s rehashing of the same plot line and though he can make his rehash interesting sometimes, Nothing but Blue Skies was barely readable.  To this day, it remains 80 pages short of unread for me with no intent to ever pick it back up. To interject a new arguement though, I can’t say enough though about David James Duncan.  The section of The River Why discussing the weight of a scientist’s frozen brain was absolute comedic brilliance. Cheers, Ivan

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Excellent point on McGuane’s rehashing of the same plot line and though he can make his rehash interesting sometimes, Nothing but Blue Skies was barely readable.  To this day, it remains 80 pages short of unread for me with no intent to ever pick it back up. To interject a new arguement though, I can’t say enough though about David James Duncan.  The section of The River Why discussing the weight of a scientist’s frozen brain was absolute comedic brilliance.

I read "The River Why" not long ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was actually assigned to one of my sons’ high school english class to read. — Charlie…

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: I read "The River Why" not long ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. It was : actually assigned to one of my sons’ high school english class to : read. Beautiful stuff indeed.  So good, I can’t bring myself to read Duncan’s other work in case it doesn’t match up.  I guess I’m losing my optimistic side… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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