Question:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Oh, she’s talking about water striders! I thought she was talking about midges. Kevin’s right. Water striders are toxic. I remember last year at the San Juan Clave there were lots of midges in the eddies and other slackwater, but the fish were ignoring them. I wondered why, and still do. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Thank you.  That sounds right.  I know they’re not fast, as I’ve always been easily able to hand catch one.   — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  

I understood that these were just not a favorite food of trout…being that they’re as hard as peanuts.  In NJ, those and skating spiders are not eaten by trout in any waters that I know of.

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water? — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure.

I kind of hate to post this, because I’m such a "fucking putz" at presenting nymphs compared to people like Willi and Bruce, but here’s my understanding of the theory. There’s something called the "turnover point." When you cast your nymph out, in the normal scheme of things, you should try to get your indicator upstream of the nymph. The current on the surface carries the indicator downstream faster than the deep-drifting nymph. Upstream mends can help, but you risk pulling the fly right out of the trouts’ mouths. There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover point. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water?

Good question. I think it’s because trout are wary. They don’t want to expose themselves to predators in shallow water when there’s plenty of stuff to eat in safer places. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover

point. According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

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According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

Even using the most thought out or "best" combination of weight, leader length etc. there will usually only be a small portion of your drift where the fly is truly approaching a dragfree drift. Like Steve said, you want to try and have this "good" part of the drift in the area that you think holds fish. The deeper the water, overall, the more pronounced this is. You can get more instances of a dragfree drift through mending, but because of the varied currents, it impossible to get a dragfree drift throughout the drift. It’s often difficult to get a dragfree drift with a dry fly. With a dry you can see what’s going on and with a dry, you’re essentially only dealing with a flat plane or two dimensions. With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph. Willi

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BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

Probably because they are too difficult for the trout to catch. They would experience a net loss in calories because of the energy expended in trying to catch them. Game fish are instinctively aware of the energy/food value relationship, and tend to feed accordingly. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph.

        and i suspect that this is because many of the insects we are attempting to imitate with nymphs are alive, and move upwards and from side to side as they attempt to reach the surface, as opposed to the nearly motionless float of duns and spinners. wayno (lifelong reader of field&stream)

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety. Kevin — Check out the Pike Clave Website: <http://www.misu.nodak.edu/~vang/PikeClave/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10% Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.

    What I really meant to say was, 95% of the time I nymph I *really* try for a dead drift. The other 5% of the time is when I’m moving (stumbling) upstream, dragging the thing behind me, and some inconsiderate trout bites it.

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Willi asks: What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for:

 Dries (over 90)  Nymphs ( not sure, probably most; 75?)  Wets (less than 10)  Streamers (less than 5) — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. Nymphs: I’d like to think that ALL my fish hit during drag free drift but I think that’s impossible to do all the time. I’d rank it there around 75%. Wets: When I fish them, which isn’t that often, they are moving for sure. 25%. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch.

I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10%

I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

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Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes.

A very fun hatch on the Clark Fork is a #14 olive caddis, a ‘green rock worm’, IIRC. A free-living caddis. Use a LaFontaine-style (God rest his soul) emerging caddis fished just under the surface film down and across or just straight down. If the fly is making a ‘V’ they don’t seem to want it. But if you get it to still be twitching & dragging, literally just under the surface, they wack it pretty hard. There is a particular hole on the CF that really can only best be fished with an almost straight down approach with this method, but right at dusk on a mid-July evening… oh boy! Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter?

I must amend to my streamer statement above that most of my streamer fishing is done from a boat. With a good oarsman at the helm, you can get some amazingly good presentations that can cover a lot of good water. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

I rarely fish streamers on the dead drift though it can be a useful imitation of a dead or dying minnow with the right pattern.  I tried one day for steelhead using a small, weighted streamer on the dead drift and ended up with a bunch of bugle trout.  They obviously feed on the dead.  I’ve also had carp and smallies suck in streamers when I’ve been counting the fly down on the sink, while fishing in still water. I know that you know this Willi, but as a general comment  . . . About drag for dries, nymphs, and wets – I try to get the situation right for the insect that’s active.  One example – on Whiteman’s Creek, it was Hendrickson time but there was nothing in the air.  I was dead drifting a H. nymph by a log jam in fairly deep water and was batting a fat zero.  Then I remembered that Hendrickson nymphs migrate to shallow, slow water to hatch.  I was standing on the inside of a bend in shallow, slow water so I slowly retrieved my H. nymph along the bottom toward me and picked up a 12" rainbow on the first try.  A few more casts picked up some more fish.   Some mayfly nymphs and caddis pupae are very active swimmers and some mayfly emergers change into adult form a foot or so below the surface before swimming up with their wings (e.g. Dark Hendricksons.)  Many caddis do the same and with some species, the gas they generate causes them to rocket up.  As caddis have micro hairs on their wings they can fly off immediately on emergence whereas mayflies usually need to dry their wings first resulting in lots of fluttering.  Some caddis skitter across the surface before flying off and a few stillwater caddis will skate on the surface all the way to the shore.  When egg laying, some caddis and mayflies dap their eggs on the surface while other caddis and mayflies dive, penetrating the meniscus and laying their eggs on the bottom before swimming back up and flying off (or dying in the mayfly case.)  Small trout will often leap out of the water after dapping egg layers while others actively chase the divers. None of this behaviour can be imitated by a dead drift. Moral:  Know the behaviour of the bug.  Drag is not always your enemy – especially when it’s deliberate. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20 Willi

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries … My estimates: Dries: 90

When people talk about "educated" fish, I think recognizing a dragfree drift is the piscine equivalent of the PhD. I also think it’s highly dependent on the particular watershed. Some places, relatively sterile mountain streams for instance, you can catch a fish with just about any sort of drift at all. On a heavily fished spring creek I’d say that the percentage of fish I take with a dragfree drift is for all intents and purposes 100%. — Ken Fortenberry

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

Well, IMO, the term "drag free" drift is the wrong term to use for _teaching_ beginners, although _presenting_ in such fashion, is, to me, different than _fishing_ a fly, even if the take occurs within a second or two of presentation.  What is important as to _fishing_ is to not appear so unnatural as to either confuse, and therefore, "spook," a fish or simply telegraph that an offering isn’t food. Granted, this often means no unnatural drag, which is often "drag free" and likely, most experienced fishers know this and use the term "drag free" as a catch-all term.  But I think it does beginners a disservice to teach absolutes (take "the wrist must always be locked or you are casting improperly" training many get, for example) as being an absolute success/failure type of situation. What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Hmm…I thought a little about it, and I can’t come up with any numbers beyond mere WAGs.  Maybe to my detriment, I don’t seem to take note of this type of data in such a way to be able to quantify it. I’m not suggesting that doing so is improper, just that I don’t.  Or maybe I do take subconscious note, but it has become one of those "I don’t know why I do it that way, I just do" things.   But if forced to make a WAG, I’d say dries, about like your number, wets, about 80-90, and streamers, upwards of 0, but less than 10 <G (simply due to the way I <mostly fish streamers, they wouldn’t be doing much "drifting," drag-free or otherwise, as I take your meaning of "drifting.") TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries  

have to say 99%  Worked dries are a minor tactic for me. Nymphs  

couldn’t possibly tell with the deep nymphs, but certainly to shallow sighted fish 100% Wets

70% Streamers

10% Steve

Response:

What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers

     10%

Response:

What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10%

Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.   JR

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One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? My estimates: Nymphs: 80

The more I think about nymphing, the harder it is to believe that a drag free drift happens very often.  Think how difficult it can be with dry flies – in 2 dimensions.  Nymphing is in 3 dimensions, so the problems you have with a dry fly drift are magnified.  Finally, add in the fact that the water slows near the bottom of the river where we often fish nymphs, and it’s a wonder we ever catch a fish. I conclude 2 things: – we are not always getting a drag free drift, but many nymphs do move around under water under their own power.  Sometimes drag simulates this. – there are so many swirling currents in "mixed water" (near bottom rocks and obstructions), that even the trout can’t always detect drag underwater.  Even natural nymphs move in randomly changing ways in some of the "micro currents". There must be places where the flow is constant and trout can detect drag, but there must be places where it’s not, too.  You can probably convince yourself of this by tossing little things into turbulent water several times and watching how they drift differently each time.

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

An interesting question, and one I have no idea of the answer.   One thing RDean said tweaked my though process however, and I began thinking not in terms of drag, but time as measurement.   I’m actually amazed at how many of the fish I catch hit the fly within a couple seconds of it hitting the water.   That probably means I suck at drag free drift.   I’m also amazed at how fast the fish can get there.   Unless I’m dropping it right on his nose, those guys really cover some ground, so to speak.   On occasions where flows are simple enough, I do catch some farther down the drift, but generally if I don’t have a take in the first 5 sec., I’m not going to get one. Joe F.

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Question:

Danke. Any in striking distance of Portland (left coast)?

Response:

Danke. Any in striking distance of Portland (left coast)?

There will be for sure if you decide to host one. Regards, Jeff

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Great responses, all. Wunnerfully creative minds at work (??) here. Now, anyone care to answer the original question itself? Thanks!

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Great responses, all. Wunnerfully creative minds at work (??) here. Now, anyone care to answer the original question itself? Thanks!

I did sort of.   Conclave – 1. a private meeting.  2a. the assembly of cardinals for the election of a pope.   2b. the meeting place for the conclave. (Hint:  It ain’t meaning #2) Now the new definition, a ROFFian meeting of assorted reprobates, alocholics, and womanizers in a location near water known to hold trout. HTH Peter

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"Clave" is an abbreviation of "Conclave", which is usually taken to mean the gathering of cardinals who assemble to elect a new pope. It also means any closed gathering. As far as ROFF is concerned, a clave is a get together where hopefully fun is had by all, and some fishing is done. TL MC — "If you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, then perhaps it is time to accept that you don

Question:

Can someone direct me to a good web site for information on fishing the many trout streams in PA and NY states?  Thanks.

Response:

Can someone direct me to a good web site for information on fishing the many trout streams in PA and NY states?  Thanks.

Steve, This site has some good info and up to date stream reports posted by anglers. http://www.paflyfish.easetech.com/ Tim

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Can someone direct me to a good web site for information on fishing the many trout streams in PA and NY states?  Thanks.

Steve My site uner ‘Links’ – ‘Destinations’ has about ten links to PA, ME, and VT flyfishing information sites. Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.cgocable.net/~pcharles/index.html

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Question:

Mike Connor: <<Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? It ain’t your imagination, Mike.  I have let me feud with George Gehrke bleed onto these pages and for that I am sorry.  My apologies to you and to all of ROFFdom. Dave LaCourse

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My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve

You’re right Mike, lifes too fricking short and time astream is not enough…. So I’ll start…. George, I’ll say this for you positively , you’ve got balls and I admire that quality in you. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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I’m up for it Mike. Tim Apple — "Bamboo is Better"

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I like this idea! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would make an alternative proposal: That each and every single one of us just shuts up and goes fishing for a few days. That’s right.. starting, say Wednesday night (Greenwich time, minus five hours) nobody posts to ROFF until they’ve spent at least two consecutive days fishing.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? You know, one of the main reasons I am more or less hopelessly addicted to this place, is that it removes me from my not inconsiderable everyday problems and worries, much as fishing itself does, although in a different way.  I feel I know many of you, far more intimately than one might imagine, given the intrinsic limitations. This is a very strange medium, and I wonder what exciting new aspects of humanity will arise from it. Hopefully not just negative ones. At the moment the medium is restricted to those with the wherewithal and intelligence to participate, this is however increasing daily, and will hopefully result in considerably improved communications on a wide scale.  It seems almost sacrilegious to waste such an opportunity with petty personal feuds. When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason. Distance and lack of personal knowledge are not sufficient to explain this. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants. My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve ? I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ? Give it some thought. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

What keeps me coming back as a newbie is I’m addicted to flyfishing and this is my fishing when I can’t be on the water (which is most of the time .) I love this sport and I enjoy reading this ng. I’ve learned quite a bit in the short time that I’ve been here and I hope to learn a hell of a lot more. I plan on being here for a long time. I’ve also really enjoyed your stories too Mike, I actually sit down here and wonder what you’ve written this time. Thanks and keep up the great stories. Tight lines, Darin

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Thanks Darin, my pleasure, glad you enjoy them. TL MC

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I think if you re-sort the list by sender (or by thread, for that matter) you’ll see the vocal "WE" are small in number and the frequent posters are repetitive in nature, especially on certain subjects. I attempt to limit myself to the threads of genuine interest to me, reviewing the new posts by: 1) Topic 2) Sender 3) Lines and then determine what I really want to read…after reading those, I then choose "MARK ALL READ" and go away until some later time. What keeps me here?  About 3% of the posts….. Larry #:)# Enjoy the eclipse, those of you that get to see it live….for us on the West Coast of the US, it’s on www.exploratorium.edu beginning at 3am PST. Hey Mike….do you get TWO evening hatches today????  =8^0

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Is it my imagination, or is there more bitterness and acrimony than usual on ROFF tonight ? You know, one of the main reasons I am more or less hopelessly addicted to this place, is that it removes me from my not inconsiderable everyday problems and worries, much as fishing itself does, although in a different way.  I feel I know many of you, far more intimately than one might imagine, given the intrinsic limitations. This is a very strange medium, and I wonder what exciting new aspects of humanity will arise from it. Hopefully not just negative ones. At the moment the medium is restricted to those with the wherewithal and intelligence to participate, this is however increasing daily, and will hopefully result in considerably improved communications on a wide scale.  It seems almost sacrilegious to waste such an opportunity with petty personal feuds. When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason. Distance and lack of personal knowledge are not sufficient to explain this. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants. My father told me a long time ago, "If you cant say something good about somebody, then keep your mouth shut", my father was a very wise man. Unfortunate indeed that I was never able to follow his advice to the letter. However this may be, anybody fancy a try ?  We are a common interest group, with an extremely broad base, but we ought to be able to agree on something. What is it ? Any suggestions ? Why are we here ? What do we wish to achieve ? I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ? Give it some thought. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– When  I see you kicking the verbal shit out of each other, however justified this may seem to be to the one or the other at the time, it actually hurts me personally, to my own surprise and consternation. I would dearly love to know the reason.

I don’t know about how things have been where you are, but for the last few weeks it’s been unbearably hot in parts of the US. Hot weather for long stretches tends to shorten tempers, I’ve noticed. It might also be that you’re normally a peacemaker type and thus more likely to notice such things. It could be multiple threads going on about topics that are controversial here, such as C&R or dam breeching, or unpleasant ones such as the guy who won’t shut up about the Hardy reel on ebay. Whatever,  I would like to propose a "be nice on ROFF week ". This does not even require any positive effort on the part of the participants.

I’m game. Of course, I’m going to be offline for a few weeks with dreams of wetting a line in the St. Joseph river than the Florida Intracoastal Waterway, so it won’t be hard for me to refrain from online rudeness. I am genuinely interested, what keeps us here ? Why do we continue in the face of sometimes frightful insults and aspersions ? Things that in normal life would result in at least a riot ?

I can think of a couple of reasons. For one thing, we’ve a swarm of curmudgeonly bastards here. Old-fashioned gentlemen, and young folks who aspire to be old curmudgeonly bastards someday. In crowds like that, a certain amount of shit-slinging is practically background noise in that you notice it only when it stops. The reason why several of us have Golden Retrievers is that few of us are like them. Not to mention, we do have that common interest: fishing. Fishing is pretty fundamental, and helps to moderate the worst of the virtual carnage. At any rate, I don’t see ROFF becoming a love-in. If nothing else, I would dearly like to not see any single one of you naked. I’m sorry, but my tastes are limited to women within four years of my ripe old practically senile 23. I doubt that any of you qualify. I would make an alternative proposal: That each and every single one of us just shuts up and goes fishing for a few days. That’s right.. starting, say Wednesday night (Greenwich time, minus five hours) nobody posts to ROFF until they’ve spent at least two consecutive days fishing. Look at it this way: We’re all either abrasive old bastards or abrasive young bastards. How do you thing George picked the name for his fly rod project? You can’t stuff twenty of them into one newsgroup without at least a little friction. And yet, when you got a bunch of them into the same room, what did they do? They drank, laughed, went fishing, and drank some more. And if we ever decide to have one in the midwest or the Rockies (or I can figure out travel to NC), I’d be there in a heartbeat. Even after having friction with some of the other people likely to be there, what’s the worst that could happen? That I’d have to drink with fellow fishermen? Please don’t throw this here po’ b’rer rabbit inta that mean ol’ briar patch! —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBN7E52ckBcsCVVLK5AQFlxwQAib10NUq3IcFIDOofXN3xhP77O63ihWXB LBNuADgWBCyJboFoY6/yzLwmRA+g8IOlPPeW5UGIzxJGmD3ebHiE47+oGNrtdLtN v4v2E1ouzd6Fkf4ybdLtam9J2bmll7iit8ylAChDfQ2wmEN6KWdAyUc4I+oJ44KS QSaCeykGu8Q= =QnA3 —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– God invented beer and fishing so that 20-something Kansas Jayhawkers wouldn’t take over the world -me

Response:

Question:

Day Tripper: <<The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) Uh, first put some water in a bucket, Dave.  Then squirt just a little Xink in and watch the oil stain spread.  I wouldn’t want it in my septic system. Dave LaCourse

Response:

hey, if your ginked cdc works, USE it!!   8}  Who are we to judge?? trout – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Response:

Wolfgang: <<Seems to me that since the offending parties were indeed engaged in exercising one of their personal freedoms any call for them to cease is in FACT an effort to limit that personal freedom.  The answer to the problem is obvious, nicht wahr?  It’s right there in the excerpt above; "…rest of us don’t NEED watch."  You certainly DON’T need to watch.  Simply refrain from putting the cursor on any posting in the thread and clicking!  If anyone was pissing on my porch I would NOT hold out a cup to catch it. Priceless.  Thanks you.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

My shoes are fine Larry . My definition of Fly Fishing is a bit broader than yours. The brainless part is disturbing though. Hm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey Harry- FLYFISHING?? You call this crap flyfishing??  C’mon…the discussion about nymphing and patterns and mooneyes and waders was about ff’ing….not this endless tirade. If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….the "discussion" has been limited to basically four participants, saying the same thing over and over and I can’t see where any of them have taken the issue streamside to prove it under FLYFISHING conditions…..I don’t fish in my lab, bathroom, kitchen or anywhere else in my house and I don’t think many others do either. Yeah, it’s WONDERFUL that people will be inspired to try something new….but if they were so brainless in the past that they weren’t willing to experiment without given the "intelectual stimulation" provided by an Internet Newsgroup, well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly…. [However, now] there’s a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV’s "Enough is Enough"

Response:

daytripper signed off:/daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd) When you decide to get rid of your lab, may I suggest being absorbed by BDHR,Ltd. This huge multinational conglomerate seems to be buying off a lot of smaller companies and everyone seems to enjoy being associated with Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers. Big Dale

Response:

If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….

[snipped lengthy contribution] I don’t know whether to retort with "Yes it does" or "No it doesn’t", so pick one and consider it my rejoinder ;^) /daytripper

Response:

…look at all the takes with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories. [snip] George, there are some things I just won’t do – and introducing GINK (or XINK) to my kitchen is one of those things. The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) /daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd)

Should that be Daytripper Lavatories, Unlimited? Doug Knight

Response:

…look at all the takes with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories.

[snip] George, there are some things I just won’t do – and introducing GINK (or XINK) to my kitchen is one of those things. The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) /daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd)

Response:

 snipped concern: I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories.  Imagine that!?   I think I’ve caught my limit ten times over on this troll.  I normally don’t drag a fly through the water.   Thank goodness I’m a Catch and Release purist, otherwise, we’d run out of these ‘free risers’ on The Great Roff River. And No, "I’m NOT the World’s Best"  I wish those that think so would learn not to take this  too seriously.– we’re good, but not that good. Mr. G. "We’re just a little bit better"  (JUST KIDDING!)  Golly!  Loosen up everyone! ; )  a smile is worth more then money and  A Ginked Fly is a Happy Fly.

Response:

floating CDC flies in their cocktails tonight. What’s the harm for Christ sake?  I could care less if it was Gink or Mink oil, these guys experimented and stated the results they got , your mileage and mine may and will vary . No big deal.  I will bet more will put something on their CDC flies in the future …just because someone said…never. I kinda like that sprit.They may not float worth a shit but at least they tried something on their own that everyone said was foolish. Harry

; )  Tight Lines Harry. — Mr. G.

Response:

Hey Harry- FLYFISHING?? You call this crap flyfishing??  C’mon…the discussion about nymphing and patterns and mooneyes and waders was about ff’ing….not this endless tirade. If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….the "discussion" has been limited to basically four participants, saying the same thing over and over and I can’t see where any of them have taken the issue streamside to prove it under FLYFISHING conditions…..I don’t fish in my lab, bathroom, kitchen or anywhere else in my house and I don’t think many others do either. Yeah, it’s WONDERFUL that people will be inspired to try something new….but if they were so brainless in the past that they weren’t willing to experiment without given the "intelectual stimulation" provided by an Internet Newsgroup, well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it.

The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

Response:

LJMARM: (mercifully snipped) <<well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. Then why, pray tell, do you keep adding to the thread?  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

Amen to that Larry,  the involved participants should take it to E-mail. There is another cure,  I simply filter it out but my filter list is beginning to get longer than my arm. Ernie Harrison Like to make fly-fishing stuff?  See: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Harry- The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

Response:

<snip The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.

<snip Seems to me that since the offending parties were indeed engaged in exercising one of their personal freedoms any call for them to cease is in FACT an effort to limit that personal freedom.  The answer to the problem is obvious, nicht wahr?  It’s right there in the excerpt above; "…rest of us don’t NEED watch."  You certainly DON’T need to watch.  Simply refrain from putting the cursor on any posting in the thread and clicking!  If anyone was pissing on my porch I would NOT hold out a cup to catch it.

Response:

Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Hey Larry,      was a time when fishing down stream was frowned on. Beads still be lures or jigs but folks tye and buy them by the ton and still call it Fly fishing. My point being you scream when the thread is not about FF’ing , this one is and you  still   yell.   If the stuff floats the fucking bug (mine) then so much the better what’s the big deal. If it does not, then so be it, but these guys are a least trying something that maybe new to others here and for that I think they deserve a bit  of all right. At the very least it had folks floating CDC flies in their cocktails tonight. What’s the harm for Christ sake?  I could care less if it was Gink or Mink oil, these guys experimented and stated the results they got , your mileage and mine may and will vary . No big deal.  I will bet more will put something on their CDC flies in the future …just because someone said…never. I kinda like that sprit.They may not float worth a shit but at least they tried something on their own that everyone said was foolish. Harry When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly…. [However, now] there’s a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV’s "Enough is Enough"

Response:

Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Response:

Question:

I will be heading north the last weekend in June and would like any input on where to fish or what we should be using. Also, does anyone know a reliable fly shop around Pittsburg that could help direct us to some fish, preferably salmon? Thanks BillW Bill W

Response:

Bill W writes:

<<Also, does anyone know a reliable fly shop around Pittsburg that could help direct us to some fish, preferably salmon? There is a fly shop between town  and Back Lake (on the right). I was in the Conn. Lakes Region a couple of years ago and it is a big disappointment to what it was in the forties/fifties (what isn’t?). If you have access to a canoe, try East Inlet (to 2nd Lake).   Also, the river between First Lake and Lake Francis.  And, below the Lake Francis Dam.  Count on a hatch of caddis (Elk Hair, Henryville Specials, Goddard ought to do.)  Stonefly nymphs (big and black) should also work well. Green caddis worm, pheasant tail, and ever-present wooly bugger should round out your repertoire. When I was a kid, there were nice brookies in Middle Pond, Moose Pond, Harris Pond (big walk) and Round Pond.  Also, Scotts Bog above 2nd Lake.  However, today it is probably all stocked stuff.  Tall Timbers and other camps used to maintain boats at these ponds.  Don’t know if they still do. Treat yourself to a meal at the Glen on Second Lake. It is beautiful country.  The catching might not be all that good, but the fishing sure is. Dave LaCourse  

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Question:

Looking for a form or possibly even software on which I can enter all data on fishing trips for future references (ex. date, time, weather, etc.). Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks. Evert

Response:

Looking for a form or possibly even software on which I can enter all data on fishing trips for future references (ex. date, time, weather, etc.). Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks. Evert

Evert, take a look at our FISHbase Anglers Log software, at http://www.terrafin.com You can view sample screens or download an evaluation version. Jeff Gammon Terrafin Software

Response:

Looking for a form or possibly even software on which I can enter all data on fishing trips for future references (ex. date, time, weather, etc.). Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks. Evert

Hello, have a look at http://www.vendel.se/fg.html – The Fisherman

Question:

I read the article in the December issue of Fly Fisherman magazine by Tom Earnhardt on fishing for False Albacore off the Outer Banks of North Carolina. The article definitely got me excited, as Earnhardt claims peak fishing months are October and November. Furthermore, he also states several times in the article that it is not necessarily an advantage to have a boat to catch these fish…that many can be caught wading near inlets. My question is, can anybody out there confirm Earnhardt’s information? A friend and I are seriously considering a long weekend trip down there in November, but we sure don’t want to go all that way to wade and catch nothing! (Hiring a boat is simply not possible on our limited budgets.) Thanks, and if you haven’t read the article, check it out! Scott Wilkinson Bethesda, Maryland

Response:

Scott, Tom’s article is correct, sometimes … In the Outer Banks, you can see an incredible range of conditions and therefore widely varying fishing situations, but for the most part, you will be able to cast to a catch albies from the beach. I would suggest contacting a local shop or two in the area you intend to travel to, and find out if the fish have been close in before you go. Try the Hatteras area, the Morehead City area and/or Harkers Island. All can be real hot spots when the fish are bitin’. Good luck, and hang on! Tom Dougherty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read the article in the December issue of Fly Fisherman magazine by Tom Earnhardt on fishing for False Albacore off the Outer Banks of North Carolina. The article definitely got me excited, as Earnhardt claims peak fishing months are October and November. Furthermore, he also states several times in the article that it is not necessarily an advantage to have a boat to catch these fish…that many can be caught wading near inlets. My question is, can anybody out there confirm Earnhardt’s information? A friend and I are seriously considering a long weekend trip down there in November, but we sure don’t want to go all that way to wade and catch nothing! (Hiring a boat is simply not possible on our limited budgets.) Thanks, and if you haven’t read the article, check it out! Scott Wilkinson Bethesda, Maryland

Response:

… on fishing for False Albacore off the Outer Banks of North Carolina…

Scott, My son and I were at Harker’s Island this past Sunday.  Breezy, cold and sunny.  A weather front had gone through the following day and the Albert "pop-ups" were scattered.  About 17 boats/rods were FFing most of the day in the Cape Lookout area both inside and outside the "hook."  Some of the big dogs in SWFF were there.  Some folks were flipping spinning rods.  We learned of one fish hooked up all day.  I’ve been in the "hook" on days in November when the entire surface was alive with fish.  Some days you get ‘em, some days you don’t.  A boat would GREATLY improve your chances.  If you come, try to plan several days of fishing to give yourself a shot at one day when everything is "right." Our one day was still better than sitting at home!  You can call John Martyn at Sea and Stream in Durham, NC for info on current fishing conditions (919-403-1604).  He also can put you in touch with Bill Harris or one of the other FF guides in the area if you decide to go that way.  John or Bill would probably give you more accurate, last-minute info about on-the-water conditions than the locals at Morehead or Harker’s. Good fishing!  J. Rice

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Question:

My girlfriend (a novice fisherperson) will be in Telluride mid-June for the Bluegrass Festival and she wants to do some fishing in the area.  Is there a fly store in the town worth sending her to where they can help with her fly selection and/or good places to fish.  Non-serious replies can be directed to alt.rec.erotica. Thanks in advance,         EMM — Edwin M. Maynard                          Department of Bioengineering phone: (801) 581-3817                     Moran Laboratories fax: (801) 585-5361                       506 Biopolymer Research Building                                           Salt Lake City, Utah 84112 Play hard, play fair, but most importantly just play.

Response:

I do not recall a fly shop in town.  However, I would call Scott Fly Rods, who are now located in that town and ask them for either guides or info. They may have a B&B destination place in the area.  I thought I recalled seeing a flyer for that. Hope this helps –jim *                                                     *

Response:

edwin- she can go to Olympic Sports (which in 91-92 timeframe sold Orvis equip.). typically at this time of year the run off is still pretty high in the San Miguel River (which runs through town and down valley). The river also experiences a huge impact thbluegrass weekend due to a 1000% increase in the population fo telluride during the festival. the fishing in the san miguel is a lot of fun, and olympic sports should be able to give her a good fly selection (and a guide if necessary). she could also check out alta, trout, or priest lakes which are in the area. -ted

: My girlfriend (a novice fisherperson) will be in Telluride mid-June for : the Bluegrass Festival and she wants to do some fishing in the area.  Is : there a fly store in the town worth sending her to where they can help : with her fly selection and/or good places to fish.  Non-serious replies : can be directed to alt.rec.erotica. : Thanks in advance, :       EMM : — : Edwin M. Maynard                          Department of Bioengineering : phone: (801) 581-3817                     Moran Laboratories : fax: (801) 585-5361                       506 Biopolymer Research Building :                                         Salt Lake City, Utah 84112 : Play hard, play fair, but most importantly just play.

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Question:

1.  Most junk mailers think they’re doing a public service. Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. [...] Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.

That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage. So, while I applaud your efforts, and I’m concerned at how much crap goes on at public expense, I must remind you that *advertising is not evil*! It is a perfectly valid method of informing the public of one’s goods and services.

You’ve made quite a leap here. The poster was complaining about JUNK MAIL, not about advertising in general. I don’t care if people advertise; I just wish they would do so in a way which doesn’t directly contribute to our pollution problem (i.e. when I "throw away" or disregard a TV commercial, I don’t have to pay the trash man to haul it away, and it takes up no space at the town dump. A case could be made that commercials cause noise pollution, but I won’t be the one to make it here…) JUNK MAIL SUX!! — "Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That’s their stock price today."        - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.

Response:

ONE MANS JUNK IS ANOTHER MANS TREASURE! Don’t get personal opinions in the way of having an open mind about BOTH the GOOD AND BAD, that these things can do.  This applies in any and all facets of life.  HAVE an opinion, it is your RESPONSIBILITY, but don’t hamper other peoples as well in trying to keep your own.  Who knows, one day you might change your mind. (Isn’t life great) I personally LIKE *SOME* of the junk mail I have gotten over the years, and have gotten a few good deals in that way.  On the other hand, most of it IS junk, but doesn’t this relationship apply to all of life and not just glossy paper with a postage paid stamp on it. (THINK ABOUT IT) I am sure most people have gotten some kind of use out of some of the JM they have recieved. (PLEASE NO FLAMES, I am just expressing some of my thoughts, good or bad) Christopher Walton

Response:

That may be the basis for *your* decision. Personally, I use such sources as the net and Consumer Reports to find out about products. As far as I’m concerned, junk mailers are performing a public DISservice by helping to fill our world with garbage.

Hey, without junk mail, what would fill the inside back cover of Consumer Reports?  (the Selling It column) —      .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.

Response:

Anyone who’s worked in the advertising field (as I have) knows that the purpose of advertising is to enforce purchasing decisions already made.  Advertising is pretty weak at persuading people to make new buying decisions, great at making people feel glad about the ones they’ve already made.  Junk mail works best with people who enjoy receiving junk mail and who have responded to it in the past.  It has little benefit for those who resist its blandishments.  My feeling is, if you want it, you should be able to affirmatively request it; and if you don’t, it shouldn’t get sent. Bob Jacobson

Response:

Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  

Don’t forget the guy in Washington State that takes pride in being able to heat his house for the winter solely by burning junk mail.  Not exactly pollution free, because it screws up the catalytic converter on wood stoves, but a neat story anyways.

Response:

Don’t be so all-fired-up certain they’re *not* doing a public service. When you have a family of four to feed (as I do), you appreciate learn- ing about bargains and getting coupons.  The rest just goes into the trash (eh, recycling bin!).  My biggest complaint is that it’s the same damn set of coupons every week.  If you don’t happen to like Pizza Hut, too bad.  But once in a while, you’ll get Pollo Loco coupons (which our family *does* like), or other values, which is worth an occasional sort. Pollo Loco? "Crazy Chicken"? Oh, sounds delicious…

It is!  Have you tried it?  Instead of frying the bird, they char-broil it.  There is a whole host of imitators now! Actually, ARA runs a mexican fast food place at the University called "El pollo grande" (the big chicken)…

Probably an imitator.  Like they say, "the sincerest form of flattery …" The average American sees and ignores more than 2000 advertising mes- sages every day.  You oughta be used to it by now. But just because we’re used to something doesn’t mean we have to take it.  "You oughta be used to tax increases by now, so don’t complain"

Slightly different … you can *not* ignore a tax increase!  Trust me, I’ve tried! Let’s face facts, nobody goes to the library to research what deoderant to buy, so the decision is largely based on what advertising has had the most effective.  *It is true* that without advertising, you simply *would not know* about the very existance of the products you buy and use.  The companies that produce those products would go out of busi- ness.  Then you (or me, or others like us) would be out of work. Yeah! If food manufacturers and grocery stores didn’t advertise, we wouldn’t buy any food! (Hey, wait a minute…)

You’re ignoring a fundamental problem, even with grocery stores. Grocery stores litter the landscape like McDonald’s’es.  How is one going to get you to drive an extra ten minutes to come to *their* store if they don’t tell you they exist? Why should they pay tens of kilo-bucks to advertise on TV to the entire area, when for a mere centa-buck or two they can target just the neigh- borhood?  Then add a few money-saving coupons as extra incentive, and viola!  Customers show up! Word about products is accomplished through word of mouth and "Consumer Reports".

Actually, advertisers have a lot of respect for both of these methods. Word-of-Mouth is naturally considered superior, since it’s an objective opinion from a trusted friend, relative, or neighbor. But you’ll go out of business waiting for Word-of-Mouth to get started! Word-of-Mouth, albeit the most sought after and reliable, happens to be the *slowest* form of advertising in existance!  So you put up some billboards, send out some flyers, print up some coupons, and get some people to come in and *try the product*.  Then, if your product is good, these experimenters can get the ol’ Word-of-Mouth Ball rolling. As for "Consumer Reports," I can only say that they fall into the cate- gory of "Caveot Emptor", like everything else.  I have experienced, and have talked to people who have experienced, that very frequently if you are *intimately familiar with the products* that you *disagree* with what they say about them.  If you can’t trust them on things you know about, how can you trust them for things you *don’t* know about? (Altho, I would trust most of their auto surveys.  This information is not based on their employees’ possibly biased or un-informed opinions, but rather on surveys from their readers.) My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products! — "We’re sorry, but the reality you have dialed is no longer in service. Please check the value of pi, or see your SysOp for assistance." UUCP: uunet!{hplabs,fiuggi,dhw68k,pyramid}!felix!asylvain

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My point stands.  One reason most of us can live the life of luxury that we enjoy is because companies who create products use advertising to get people to buy them.  This creates jobs, which puts money into the hands of people, who can then go out and buy more products!

All Hail, Conspicuous Waste!  Long live, Throw Away Society! Bill

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1.  *CALL* the DMA’s Mail Preference Service at their secret, unlisted number (212)768-7277 and ask to be listed in their Suppression File. Stay on the phone while the computer operator types your address in. If you leave a message they may just discard it. Call them a month later and ask if you’re listed.  

I called just now – the operator told me that she couldn’t enter my information over the phone – she told me to either write in requesting this or she could send me a form.  I asked for the form; I hope that it gets a better response than the letters did.         -= iain <=-     "a sysadmin kinda guy"

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%8.  When they ask for my name and address at Radio Shack, I tell them %firmly but politely, "For the purpose of your data base, my name is Joe %Tandy and my address is GPO, Fort Worth, Texas."  Radio Shack is one of %the few large junk mailers who can’t be bothered to maintain a suppression %file. I’ve been told one great thing about Tandy but I can’t confirm it.  Can anyone? Tandy/Radio Shack does NOT sell its mailing list and from what I’ve heard they have the largest in the States. %(c) 1991, Cameron Spitzer, San Jose, California Great article, Cameron!  Thank you! Zap — Zap Savage, Savage Research, Inc. "There’s a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like a fool."         -Steven Wright "It’ll never fly, Orville."         -Wilbur Wright

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