Question:

        Pickerel Jim has expressed a desire to invite a bunch of you fine fellas to a fly-fishing for carp rodeo… there’ll be prizes (beware of PJ offerings), and he will reserve the west wing of the Hyde-Away resort in Fairfield NC near Lake Mattamuskeet in Hyde County if enough hardy carp men (and women) sign up…  he seemed serious at the time, but the Bacardi Black was almost gone when the idea sprang forth from his grinnin jowls.  still, on a trip a few weeks ago we watched huge carp leaping about like mullet (mating, spawning behavior?) in a pretty back woods spot of more than a 100 acres of water that can be waded easily… had no idea how to fish for them at the time with equipment we had, but looks like it would be fun to hook ol Mr. Limpet… jeff jeff

Response:

   Pickerel Jim has expressed a desire to invite a bunch of you fine fellas to a fly-fishing for carp rodeo… there’ll be prizes (beware of PJ offerings), and he will reserve the west wing of the Hyde-Away resort in Fairfield NC near Lake Mattamuskeet in Hyde County if enough hardy carp men (and women) sign up…  he seemed serious at the time, but the Bacardi Black was almost gone when the idea sprang forth from his grinnin jowls.  still, on a trip a few weeks ago we watched huge carp leaping about like mullet (mating, spawning behavior?) in a pretty back woods spot of more than a 100 acres of water that can be waded easily… had no idea how to fish for them at the time with equipment we had, but looks like it would be fun to hook ol Mr. Limpet… jeff

That is soooo tempting . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Question:

Hm…..it shows as 10:30 a.m., Tuesday on my server.  Truth to tell, I no longer remember when I actually sent that particular message and reference to any sort of clock would now appear to be of little help.      

We could be talking about different messages. It wouldn’t be the first time I expect. <g — Charlie…

Response:

My server says it came in at 8:43 a.m. on Tuesday; not quite two hours before I wrote the message to which he was responding. I must not see all the messages; what appears on my server to be the message he responded to shows being sent at 11:30 (EDT) on Monday.

Hm…..it shows as 10:30 a.m., Tuesday on my server.  Truth to tell, I no longer remember when I actually sent that particular message and reference to any sort of clock would now appear to be of little help.       Wolfgang who, according to the watch on his left wrist is hitting the send button at exactly 11:02 a.m. CDT on wednesday, 18 april, 2001.

Response:

My server says it came in at 8:43 a.m. on Tuesday; not quite two hours before I wrote the message to which he was responding.

I must not see all the messages; what appears on my server to be the message he responded to shows being sent at 11:30 (EDT) on Monday. — Charlie…

Response:

Moreover, as this latest missive seems to have arrived some two hours before the post to which you were responding, extra credit is being given for prescience.  I concede!        :) According to my server it was 22 hours after, not 2 hours before.

My server says it came in at 8:43 a.m. on Tuesday; not quite two hours before I wrote the message to which he was responding. Not-quite-parrallel universes?

Probably just a parallax error. Wolfgang

Response:

(bizarre exchange snipped) Man, I knew i was in for trouble as soon as I hit that send button. I must have gotten a bad bottle of merlot. With any luck, that post is buried so deep in such an old and uninteresting thread, that very few will see it. As for you others, I know I wrote bad things in bad style. I take responsibility. Bring down your ire! sean

No points will be deducted for style.  Moreover, as this latest missive seems to have arrived some two hours before the post to which you were responding, extra credit is being given for prescience.  I concede!        :) Wolfgang never wrestle with a fatidical

Response:

Moreover, as this latest missive seems to have arrived some two hours before the post to which you were responding, extra credit is being given for prescience.  I concede!        :)

According to my server it was 22 hours after, not 2 hours before. Not-quite-parrallel universes? — Charlie…

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(bizarre exchange snipped) Man, I knew i was in for trouble as soon as I hit that send button. I must have gotten a bad bottle of merlot. With any luck, that post is buried so deep in such an old and uninteresting thread, that very few will see it. As for you others, I know I wrote bad things in bad style. I take responsibility. Bring down your ire! sean

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Never again will I take seriously anyone here who wags their self-righteous finger at me or anyone else about wasting bandwidth about politics, weather, sex, or God for bide FF’ing or any other fucking thing.  The amount of BW pissed down the rat hole chasing Ginks crap all over cyberspace is stunning. You poor SOB’s are eating out of his dirty little paws and it’s rather sad. Harry Mason There is Sale going on,have a look    www.Troutflies.com

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Never again will I take seriously anyone here who wags their self-righteous finger at me or anyone else about wasting bandwidth about politics, weather, sex, or God for bide FF’ing or any other fucking thing. The amount of BW pissed down the rat hole chasing Ginks crap all over cyberspace is stunning. You poor SOB’s are eating out of his dirty little paws and it’s rather sad. Harry Mason There is Sale going on,have a look   www.Troutflies.com

You’re absolutely right on target Harry, I succumbed to breaking a long standing rule I have of not responding to Gherke, no matter how outrageous his postings. Besides, I think Mike Connor is doing an excellent job of that. <g I will forthwith and henceforth sink back into silence. But sometimes it is hard to remain passive in the face of these onslaughts to intelligent discourse, so I can understand why others can’t resist in feeding his egocentric ramblings. Frank (tikalok) Church

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You poor SOB’s are eating out of his dirty little paws and it’s rather sad. Harry Mason It’s indeed sad; but the food is so good! I find myself wakening in the wee hours, sneaking out of bed and slinking downstairs for just one more bite of the dirty little nibblets! I hate them but I NEED them! ravenously yours, sean Good Lord man, have you ANY idea of what you have just done??!!  Do you have even the foggiest inkling of what a dangerous precedent you have just set?  I think NOT!  You have, if we may momentarily stoop the gauche convenience of lapsing into the vernacular, "let the cat out of the poke". You can look at it that way.

Thank you. BUT, should you afford me a little more credit,

Hm, I thought I WAS doing just that. you might be of the opinion I play the Devil’s advocate, mixing shoulds, coulds and hand-fed morsels into a polarized miasma of repulsion and attraction.

I might indeed but, based on the above exchange, it would appear that neither of us would know it if I was.  I like the "polarized miasma" thing though. I may be exposing on this forum

And you certainly wouldn’t be the first. for what it has become ( merely a glorified video game, a text adventure, a room full of Dungeons & Dragons geeks fullfilling their fantasies by living vicariously through the fictive lives they could never achieve in the true world ) only with the objective of raising the odius ante.

Never been very much interested in video games myself, and I’ve never tried text adventures or D&D at all.  Just an educated guess here, but I think most of the people in this group whom I have met thus far aren’t great fans either. Moreover, based on what little time I have spent with them, I don’t think most of them depend to any great extent on vicarious living.  Until someone else steps forward to make a claim, I am content to recognize you as the resident authority on these matters. Perhaps I know that the more surreal and absurdist a mileu appears, the more irrational, and reactionary its members will let themselves -or their ‘net personas- be.

Yes, perhaps you do. Further, I might realize that ROFF is NOT a place where e-concequences do not merge with the "real" world, where everyone is really anonymous, and every man has a 13" dick.

The list of things you might know is growing at an impressive rate.  Sadly though, I am at something of a loss in trying to determine just what the latest addition to that list refers to.  I might, perhaps, guess it has something to do with not being content with the distinction of being a recognized expert on role playing; that you also have a burning desire to be the resident authority on other men’s dicks as well.  If so, I for one, decline to challenge your ascendancy on this matter. Now, what we have, is a fly-fishing version of Doom (the vid game). We can wade through the muck and dredge mowing any threat down like the Columbine library… trolling and seting, one might say. Violent, bloody and quite enjoyable, but not real. However, there is a pretty good chance that someday on the river you’re going to run in to some guy named gg, or wolfgang, or sean, and you’ll press further and find out this same gg wolfgang sean is the same who wrote of you as a coward, or pussy, or loonie, or thief, or hack, or strike indicator user, or whatever on ROFF. And the monkeywrench Devil’s advocate cashes in as some angler floats down the river face-down.

Before today I never had occasion to take seriously any threat of physical violence proffered by anyone on this news group.  Even the rather explicit threats exchanged by a few regulars were probably not taken too seriously by most readers and, as subsequent events proved, their lack of concern was not as irresponsible as one might think.  Alas, for me at least, all that has changed now.  Of course, I can’t be certain of what others may think, but I suspect you may have  limited the number of potential fishing partners you are likely to find here.  Or, to put it more directly, every swingin dick who whines about what goes on in here laps it up like a junky with the three day shakes.  The only thing they need worse than a regular fix of this appalling degradation and squalor is an occasional opportunity to declaim their disgust over the whole wretched mess and their absolute disdain (ever so politely put, of course) for those who participate, Or, if you could afford, just a little bit MORE credit, you might condisder that no one really takes credit for playing Devil’s advocate if he really is playing Devil’s advocate. You can bet that one calling himself D’s A is really likening himself to some allegorical figure like Tar Baby, or Fritz the Cat,

Admirably convoluted…..gotta give you credit for that. in which case this so-called DA thinks he has some sort of lesson to teach.

Yes, don’t we all. Perhaps this DA wants to remind us what Jesus said of speaking (and by inference, typing): what exits the mouth is a reflection of the heart.

And what are we likely to see reflected in the heart of a monkeywrench DA as we float face down in the river? And by reminding us of this on the Holy day of Easter this DA hopes ROFF will see the truth in this… that every flame and squabble degrading the bandwidth of this forum is a testament to the bile and jealousy and pride and fear and self masturbation of every over-inflated ego and every rotten heart that takes part, justified or not.

with your Jesus of Nazareth there. MAYBE, this DA might go so far as to say "Go forth, and get ye upon that river, or lake, or ditch. Take in to thine hands a flexible staff of three cubit’s length whereupon a tether is attached with which ye shall attempt to fool fishes.

The defense might be getting weary of trying to divine what the DA might or might not think, do, or say.  We could just possibly wish he might just get on with it and say what he may have to say…..allegorically speaking, that is. And when enough fishes have been fooled, and enough rivers forged, ye shall ascend to a state of grace and truth which crucifies you unto the world and the world unto you."

? To the challenged, one might translate, "get a life."

Ah!  One may have hoped there might be a sort of pr

Question:

…  Dressing should NOT be of silicone based products as found in England but rather with gink,… Silk responds well to a gink dressing … Remember, try straight gink, …

Red Mucilin is the best dressing for silk lines. Green Mucilin contains silicone and the spammer is correct, silicone products should not be used on silk lines. — Ken Fortenberry- give it a rest, G.

Response:

Red mucilin is the best dressing for silk lines, and as far as I am aware is the only dressing recommended by practically the last manufacturers of these lines.   No other dressings should be used, as they may damage the line, and these lines are now very expensive indeed.  They are the finest lines it is possible to use for small stream fishing, or for fishing areas where a stealthy approach is essential. They allow delicate presentation, cause less disturbance, and the modern ones are nowhere near as much trouble to keep in good condition as the old ones were. They will outlast any modern plastic line quite easily, and so the increased expense is perhaps not so relevant. It is immaterial whether they are used on cane or carbon fibre, or indeed fibre-glass rods. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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They are the finest lines it is possible to use for small stream fishing, or for fishing areas where a stealthy approach is essential. They allow delicate presentation, cause less disturbance, and the modern ones are nowhere near as much trouble to keep in good condition as the old ones were. They will outlast any modern plastic line quite easily, and so the increased expense is perhaps not so relevant.

This thread has kind of got me interested in learning more about silk lines and where to get them.  Any suggestions on where more info can be found? Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

George,     I couldn't agree more that silk fly lines are an excellent option. In fact, they have so many benefits that many of my friends are now switching to them. Olaf Borge was making brisk sales of Phoenix lines at the recent Rodmakers gathering in Grayling.

snip:  I have to remove the cap of the Gink tube and use forceps to get it out. Could you work on that?]

______  The albolene is like water in hot weather and the tube option leaves a lot to be desired because of losing the little cap with cold fingers, or any other number of reasons astream.  I have to think of the hundreds of thousands of possible factors that will cause customers to be unhappy regarding just the cap.  This is one of the reasons we use the cap we do.  The other is the gasket on tubes are not guaranteed to last the life of the tube.  Many lose this seal also.   Gink is very difficult to contain because it has great penetration powers on flies which is one of the reasons it’s superior.  (No spam intended, dang it Ken)  Regardless, the bottle we use is a specific choice because the seal on it is complete and is one of the few vessels that will contain gink without leakage and seals during long storage because it only takes a little to dress a fly. When you gink a silk fly line it will be better for silk fly lines than the ‘English Option’ known as the "Red Tin".  (Smiling here pal).  In fact, I know it for a fact based just on science and objective testing and usage covering a span of 30 years Reed.  The freedom of choice is yours, but you should at least give yourself a try because regardless of what silk fly line makers may think what is best for their fly lines, I assure you I know more about it then they do. In fact gink was tested to be specific for silk lines long before Phoenix was in business. I’ll leave it at that, excepting I would never tell you anything that wasn’t better in terms of your best interests.  That I happen to be the maker of gink, has nothing to do with it.  That fly fishermen now gink a fly instead of just dressing a fly is a product of satisfaction over many years of use.  That a ginked silk fly line floats and behaves better than any other products used, especially silicone Red Tinned products, is without question.  Red Tinned versions still attract dirt on silk, makes it abrasive and wears out silk before its time.  Again, the secret to any fly line, I must admit is keeping them clean and properly dressed.  If you’re satisfied with the Red Option Reed, after all this time, frankly you should continue using it.   For the high price of silk however, I’d use my stuff. — MrG/American Sportsman http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjun00.html  LATEST BAMBOO FACTS "the saga continues"

Response:

If you look at Reed

Question:

Great report, guys.  Peter, are you standing in a hole in that picture?  <g Never saw Forty in waders.  Hope I never do again.  <g  I like your hat, Forty.  Eff ‘em all if they don’t! Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word.

Welcome to Michigan! A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction.

I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19".  Of course he was fishing private water that is rarely encountered except for people who are taking long float trips. Good to hear you guys got into some steelies.  I’ve been meaning to go out this year but only made it out once and left early after only two hours of fishing.  I was disgusted by the "relatively" uncrowded conditions.  Did catch some trout but on my 9 wt they weren’t too much fun. Mu

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Glad you guys had a great trip, and like Charlie has said, I find it hard to believe it did not rain.   Dave LaCourse

Worse, it snowed. Peter

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real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

Response:

<great report snipped Nice Report Ken.  You reminded me of the first time on the San Juan last November.  I left my wading shoes in the car after my first day fishing, got down to the river the next morning and they were frozen solid. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Response:

A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. I believe there are places where you can find resident trout.  I was speaking with a guy last night who has been fishing the Muskegon on and off for the last three weeks.  He said he caught several browns and rainbows in the 16" – 19". …

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked. The spawning population of steelies and salmon head out to Lake Michigan after their sexual escapades in the Muskegon and return year after year to spawn. Their offspring do the same. While some would claim they’re not "wild" because they were stocked in the first place they are "natural" in my book. Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Why can’t the rainbows spawn if the steelhead and salmon can? Are they outcompeted by the bigger fish?

Good question. I don’t know. I’m not familiar with the Muskegon at all and don’t know much about it. BTW, the salmon don’t return year after year. They die. I think I’ve heard of experiments with Atlantics in the Great Lakes, but the vast majority are Pacific salmon.

That’s right, the salmon that spawn in the Muskegon are Chinooks. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers? Dave

Response:

Have they ever tried Cutts in these rivers?

Don’t know, David. I’m more familiar with Wisconsin DNR than Michigan. So far as I know, Wisconsin has not. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

That’s right. Residents aka holdovers. I caught a nice 12" rainbow, he didn’t put up much of a fight against a 7wt. Those 6-8 inchers will be 12-14 inchers by fall and there are holdovers that make it through the winter. When I say it’s not a trout stream I mean that trout do not reproduce in the stream, they are all stocked.

My guess is that it has nothing to do with water quality but other factors such as: available spawning space (competition from the big guys), fishing pressure, low survivability of the stockers (poor genetics?), and perhaps seasonal factors that affect residents but not migratories. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Unlike the trout. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The truth ain’t always ugly.  Nice pics, whoever took them – both you and Ken did a good job of that. Delorme’s can be wrong (the Michigan one at least).  They don’t show all the dirt roads and there are some *roads* on that map that are just dirt trails.  Some of the names of the roads change as they cross county lines or highways and this is not always clearly marked on the map.  Also, the green color on the Delorme is supposed to represent public land but the detail is not fine enough to show you that on many of these streams there are in fact houses along the river.  I don’t mind too much though, the exploration part is just part of the fun of fishing.   BTW, I like Ken’s hat – got a Kangol just like it, earflaps and all. Mu

I was just being an ass.  The Delorme showed a Pettit road that lead straight to Croton.  It was a goat track and it ended at some power lines where trees and stumps had been dragged across the right-of-way. One would guess from the Delorme that it was a decent road.  Ken was right, the Delorme was wrong. Peter

Response:

Great trip report guys.   Thanks for the smiles. Joe F.

Response:

Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Nice report and pictures, but it didn’t seem to be raining so are you sure that was really Fortenberry in the festive chapeau? — Charlie…

Response:

……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages.

I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

Response:

……I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. I’ll open the bidding at 5 bucks.

i’ll see that 5 and raise, a hush falls over the table, hee-hee-hee…. a bottle of wild turkey for maine clave — Ezflyfish.com:  http://www.ezflyfish.com http://auctions.yahoo.com/booth/ezflyfish_com Used, Rare, & Out-of-Print Books: http://www.crosswinds.net/~brbg/books/brbg-2.html

Response:

Good report.  Nice to see pictures on your site. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. [a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Marvellous report, great pictures too. I really enjoyed that.  Thanks TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide?

The good looking "dude" is me.  I’m the one with the rod.  The fish is the thing with fins.  The guide is holding the thing with fins. Notice I made Ken’s fish picture big and my fish picture small.  Am I a great person or what, eh? Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

He loves it – and I had to put up with all of the sniggers from the bait fishermen. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

with a gusto, I might add That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Naw, just a blip.  Now if he’d used spawn on the end of his T&T  . . . . Peter

Response:

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html

Holy macaroni! Who the hell are the two "dudes" in the pictures with the guide? Where the heck did Ken get that hat?? And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!? That’s it. The world is coming to an end. /daytripper (awe-palled…)

Response:

Nice report. Thanks, almost like being there, especially the bloody freezing feet ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck.

[a somewhat accurate story snipped] — Ken Fortenberry

Teeny weeny hen my ass.  Just to set the record straight, I caught the hens, Ken caught the bucks.  Not trying to imply something here, but I’m starting question his "orientation" if you know what I mean.  (Say no more.   Say no more.  Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)  Any way, if he keeps up with those exaggerations, I have an ET2 secret that he’d pay me mucho dinaro not to reveal on these pages. Anyway, enough of the Entertainment Tonight segment of the trip.  The real truth along with the evidence can be viewed at: http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/trip-27.html Cheers Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

… Where the heck did Ken get that hat??

Hey, that’s a great hat, fleece, Goretex AND ear flaps,…ahhh, ear flaps. Peter made fun of it too, can you imagine, and him looking like the Unabomber in that hood. And what’s this – Ken fishing for stockers?!?

Yeah I know, it made the guide happy. I considered it part of his tip. Those fish were put in the river the previous Thursday, all were 6-8 inches and dumber than dumb. The guide said if there’s anything in your fly box that you’d like to pull out at some point and say, "Can you believe I caught a fish on THAT.", now is the time to tie it on. They had six inches of snow the previous Friday and he said they were rising furiously to snow flakes. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

We picked the Muskegon River in Michigan because it’s roughly equidistant between my home in Urbana, IL and Peter Charles’ home in Burlington, Ontario. As fishing season 2000 started to unfold and dates started firming up, it was starting to look like Peter and I wouldn’t have a chance to wet a line together. I can’t make it to Maine ‘Clave, Peter can’t make it to Spring Fling so obviously we had to do something. It was basically put a finger on the map, let’s fish there. We hired a guide for Monday and met at the motel late morning on Sunday. I had my canoe and the plan was to buy licenses and familiarize ourselves with the area before the guided trip the next day. While buying the licenses I discovered a couple of things. First, if you catch a female steelhead early in the day, just gut her on the spot and you’ve got bait for the rest of the day. This from the very friendly bait guys at the Trading Post. I said, "Yeah, thanks. What a great idea." They did give us some very helpful advice on access points and I genuinely like talking to those guys even if I never would gut a hen on the spot. Second, Peter lies about his weight when buying a fishing license. We had a pleasant canoe trip from Croton Dam to the Thornapple Ave. access. Very crowded on a Sunday afternoon and we canoed more than we fished. We did see plenty of steelhead, though. Rather, Peter saw plenty of steelhead, I had left my polarized glasses in the car. Monday morning was cold. My wading shoes were wet from the day before and they turned into ice cubes while sitting in the drift boat. Hard for me to be comfy with cold feet and my feet were encased in ice for the first hour of the trip. We anchored the boat at a place the guides call "The Carnival", an eighth of a mile stretch of riffles and pools about a mile below Croton Dam. They call it "The Carnival" because during steelhead season it is packed with anglers. On a Monday morning, it was relatively uncrowded. "Relatively" being the key word. I got the first couple of hookups but botched them badly. Broke off the fish almost immediately. Peter landed the first steelie after a couple of his own botched hookups. I quickly followed and caught the same buck that had broken me off earlier, so was able to retrieve BOTH of my #14 black stonefly nymphs. We moved down a ways, spotted some fish, anchored and then waded into position. Peter was on almost immediately, our guide looked downstream, looked at the hole where he’d positioned me and said "Here’s our chance for a double." The guide waded down to net Peter’s fish and before he got into position I was on to a fish. The double. Guides love ‘em, and it makes for a great photo op. The first fish took me into the backing but this one seemed content to just sit in a hole and DEFY me. I watched the action downstream as Peter and the guide did the intricate netting dance and then I yelled down to Peter, "Here’s our double !" I worked down to get my fish next to the net so the guide could net both, one right after the other. He did, we got a quick photo, and Peter will post it on his site soon. Peter is the one on the right with the teeny weeny bright hen and I’m the one on the left with the huge brawny buck. I don’t know what Peter was using, I caught that one a Hex nymph. A great day of fishing. The Muskegon River is a beautiful piece of water. It supports a spawning population of steelhead and Chinook salmon. It’s not really a trout stream, though. All the trout are stockers and they don’t get any natural reproduction. Our guide was very good. I have only mentioned one guide in this forum as someone I recommend. That was Robin Cunningham of Gallatin Gateway, Montana. Today, I recommend the second. Dustan Harley of Ripple Guide Service. http://www.rippleguideservice.com/ Dustan had us on the water for nearly 11 hours and was at his most impressive when he stopped the boat, and said "Get out your 4 wts." It was the PERFECT interlude. We tossed stimulators and griffiths gnats to rising stockers. After chucking lead for most of the day with 7 wts, it was a real joy to actually flyfish with a dry fly. We caught dumb little 8" fish and it was a hoot. Dustan will be in Livingston, Montana during Western ‘Clave. He’s a good guy to go fishin’ with. I do question his taste in beer, after the trip when offered a Sleeman’s or a Budweiser, he chose the Sleeman’s. Hey, I said he was a good guide, I won’t vouch for his taste in beer. After that long day in the wind and the cold you might expect a couple of old farts to just go back to motel room, drink a beer in their underwear and go immediately to sleep. Peter and I partied till the wee hours, drank a half a fifth of Wild Turkey, and had to shoo off the dancing girls at daylight. That’s our story and we’re sticking to it. — Ken Fortenberry

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Question:

Don’t think so. It’s more like: 25% bullsh-t, 50% garbage and 25% junk. What a waste! Allan

Response:

Don’t think so. It’s more like: 25% bullsh-t, 50% garbage and 25% junk. What a waste! Allan

Let me guess…you’re new to the internet (and USENET). This is not a "site" this is a newsgroup.  Just a bunch of random people who talk about a topic or mostly whatever happens to come out of their keyboards.  Don’t like it? Don’t come here.  There are no rules and no services are provided, you get out of this group what is contributed to it. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

Don’t think so. It’s more like: 25% bullsh-t, 50% garbage and 25% junk. What a waste!

Make that 26% bullshit Allan (considering your useless whining drivel of a post). — OBROFF – Flyfishing through convalesence….I recently broke ribs playing basketball…it hurt to do anything.  Tying flies required that an arm be propped up.  But, while tying…having the mental image of using the flies, of being on the water, most certainly sped recovery.   You can extrapolate this to the most fatal conditions and even if one does not survive an illness, what was lost to the memory of being back on the water and imagining that a fish will rise ?  Rest in peace Jim (April 6, 1998). — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Don’t think so. It’s more like: 25% bullsh-t, 50% garbage and 25% junk. What a waste! Allan

Gee Allan that’s a hellova contribution. Best Regards, Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle, Ltd. http://fishdoc.com "I’m the boss, so WHATEVER I say is OK."

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Actually there is a lot of good information here. You just have to learn which contributors are worth reading and which ones to delete. Happy days. Jack.

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That sounds about right for any decent flyfisher, gear included. Obviously, not recognizing this, you are a bait dunker. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t think so. It’s more like: 25% bullsh-t, 50% garbage and 25% junk. What a waste! Allan

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Question:

  Where do you guys fish?  Colorado?   I hear alot of posters    commenting on how the streams are always crowded.  I know that FF is growing in popularity, but this seems a little  bit much.  Is it just that too many people are fishing the stocked tailwaters, and not going after the smaller wild fish closer to the headwaters?   I usually fish in Michigans Upper Peninsula, for brookies and browns,  and most of the time I have the river to myself.   The fish are good sized, and plentiful.     Is the problem a lack of trout streams?  I also  fish in Colorado,  near the San Juan, but I don’t bother to go there because I know there will be crowds. I just head for the smaller headwater areas, and see few people.  Not as few as I see in the U.P., but much fewer than the larger rivers.   Have your "hotspots" been invaded by numbers of anglers?   Are fisherman encroaching into the once remote areas?   I guess I just can’t follow the folks who complain about too many people.   What rivers are severely overcrowded besides the San Juan?   I’d like to understand. —–Muskie

Response:

What rivers are severely overcrowded besides the San Juan? I’d like to

understand. —–Muskie The Blue, The Platte, The Dolores, The Frying Pan, The Colorado, The White, The Roaring Fork, The Arkansas,  The Cache La Poudre….for starters. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

  Where do you guys fish?  Colorado?   I hear alot of posters    commenting on how the streams are always crowded.  I know that FF is growing in popularity, but this seems a little  bit much.

Muskie; Flyfishing, like everything else that is in demand and has a viable spot on the information superhighway, is believed to be best represented by bites of info.  This rapid fire, at-your-fingertips has resulted in an obfiscation of information.  Here, in PA, we make the matters worse by selecting only certain streaches of some of our best waters to carry regulations that help insure good trout populations to fish over.  We take it in bites: C&R of Yellow Breeches, Little Lehigh heritage section, Penn’s Creek C&R, Fishing Creek’s Trophy Trout, etc, etc, These are defined destinations that everyone can hoarde to: Ahhahh! Crowded Streams!  No, crowded SECTIONS of streams.  Some among us only want to associate themselves with certain angling destinations: like a nametag or brand name.  MOst don’t care.  However, big names come from good fishiing.  This popularity increases the pressure, fish pops drop noticably from kill fishing, special regs are enacted, and the place gets even more popular. Well, at least that’s how I see it. JB

Response:

What rivers are severely overcrowded besides the San Juan? I’d like to understand. —–Muskie The Blue, The Platte, The Dolores, The Frying Pan, The Colorado, The White, The Roaring Fork, The Arkansas,  The Cache La Poudre….for starters.

The Scioto, The Olentangy, The Mad, Clear Fork, Conneaut, The Grand,… And those are Ohio bass rivers. You guys out west think _you_ have it bad! Jon Porter

Response:

if I wanted to fish in a crowd I would go to the mail and fish.  the is nothing in this world like being on a stream by yourself casting for that big trout.

Response:

I don’t mind crowds at concerts or sporting events.  I really like seeing my store crowded with paying customers.  I kinda got a kick out of the crowds at the shopping mall this past Saturday.  Crowds are very important to an effective demonstration.         On a stream?  No thanks.  Gimme shelter. JE

Response:

if I wanted to fish in a crowd I would go to the mail and fish.  the is nothing in this world like being on a stream by yourself casting for that big trout.

How about being on a stream by yourself casting for little trout?  These days, that seems to be the best crowd-beating tactic for me.  And every once in a while, you still might hook into that 14" whopper! BTW, how do you catch fish by mail?  Can I order over the ‘net? — Jeff Benjamin                benji(at)fc.hp.com Hewlett Packard Co.      Fort Collins, Colorado (Direct reply won’t work:  use address in .sig) "Think!  It ain’t illegal yet." -George Clinton

Response:

The Blue, The Platte, The Dolores, The Frying Pan, The Colorado, The White, The Roaring Fork, The Arkansas,  The Cache La Poudre….for starters.

In Oregon, the Deschutes.  Ruined!  Absolutely stampeded.

Response:

  Where do you guys fish?  Colorado?   I hear alot of posters    commenting on how the streams are always crowded.  I know that FF is growing in popularity, but this seems a little  bit much.

snipped… I hear you Musk-man. I fish WI and except for the few very well known "name" rivers, if I see one guy when I’m fishing I’m often surprised. Here’s an interesting statistic. WI has 2,444 trout streams in the state. Thing is, most people won’t fish them because they are not wide open RivRunThrIt type streams. All the better for me. Cheers. Jon

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Question:

Stick with the hardwood patches for the planks.  Ignore the loose canvas unless it is peeling off.  (As long as it is well attached along the stems and gunwales.)  Sand lightly (wet or dry) being careful not to sand into the fabric.  Paint with marine grade paint: flat, semi, or gloss … your choice.  Classic Boatworks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy all!  I need some help here. I own a canvas-covered cedar ribbed canoe [Chestnut Prospector Fort Garry, circa 1970] in need of repairs and paint.  First, any books to recommend? I have borrowed Stelmok and Thurlow’s *The Wood & Canvas Canoe*.  Fine book and great for anybody wishing to restore a canvas canoe, but I would prefer not to "restore" the canoe.  Any other books? Specifically: Some of the planks are cracked.  My father in the past has placed small flat pieces of hard-wood over these cracks and held them in place with marine epoxy. Varnish then covers the works. It appears to have worked well over the years.  I might use small pieces of cedar instead.  I would prefer not to use sheet-metal and have to remove the ribs. The paint is cracked and peeled.  The canvas is a little loose in a couple of places.  Trail-Head in Ottawa painted the canoe for me in 1994 and frankly, I do not think they did a good job. I need to strip it all off and re-paint, I would assume.  How? Wet-and-dry sand paper?  Chemical?  If so, which chemical?  Should I remove the keel before removing the paint?  Use a semi-gloss finish as recommended by Stelmok and Thurlow? I do not believe that the canoe needs to re-canvased.  I use it presently to fly fish for kamloops trout in the Merritt/Kamloops area and it works fine. Cheers, Burnaby, BC

Response:

Check out the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association site and you’ll find all the help you can handle. Rich Briere – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Howdy all!  I need some help here. I own a canvas-covered cedar ribbed canoe [Chestnut Prospector Fort Garry, circa 1970] in need of repairs and paint.  First, any books to recommend? I have borrowed Stelmok and Thurlow’s *The Wood & Canvas Canoe*.  Fine book and great for anybody wishing to restore a canvas canoe, but I would prefer not to "restore" the canoe.  Any other books? Specifically: Some of the planks are cracked.  My father in the past has placed small flat pieces of hard-wood over these cracks and held them in place with marine epoxy. Varnish then covers the works. It appears to have worked well over the years.  I might use small pieces of cedar instead.  I would prefer not to use sheet-metal and have to remove the ribs. The paint is cracked and peeled.  The canvas is a little loose in a couple of places.  Trail-Head in Ottawa painted the canoe for me in 1994 and frankly, I do not think they did a good job. I need to strip it all off and re-paint, I would assume.  How? Wet-and-dry sand paper?  Chemical?  If so, which chemical?  Should I remove the keel before removing the paint?  Use a semi-gloss finish as recommended by Stelmok and Thurlow? I do not believe that the canoe needs to re-canvased.  I use it presently to fly fish for kamloops trout in the Merritt/Kamloops area and it works fine. Cheers, Burnaby, BC

Response:

Howdy all!  I need some help here. I own a canvas-covered cedar ribbed canoe [Chestnut Prospector Fort Garry, circa 1970] in need of repairs and paint.  First, any books to recommend? I have borrowed Stelmok and Thurlow’s *The Wood & Canvas Canoe*.  Fine book and great for anybody wishing to restore a canvas canoe, but I would prefer not to "restore" the canoe.  Any other books?

This book is the "bible" of wood canvas canoe repair and restoration, so don’t be afraid of it. You don’t have to be doing a major restoration to appreciate the techniques and advice that the book has to offer. As for other books, there are books and articles available from and on the WCHA website that might be of some help to you. Specifically: Some of the planks are cracked.  My father in the past has placed small flat pieces of hard-wood over these cracks and held them in place with marine epoxy. Varnish then covers the works. It appears to have worked well over the years.  I might use small pieces of cedar instead.  I would prefer not to use sheet-metal and have to remove the ribs.

Don’t use metal. It’s ugly and not necessary. You can glue/screw on patches over cracked ribs as long as you don’t have too many in a row that are broken. Stain them the color of the wood and varnish over the whole area. It will work out fine.  If you decide to recanvas you may want to try a backside rib repair. This is detailed in a Wooden Canoe back issue available at the WCHA website. The paint is cracked and peeled.  The canvas is a little loose in a couple of places.  Trail-Head in Ottawa painted the canoe for me in 1994 and frankly, I do not think they did a good job.

If the canoe leaks, remember that painting will not help much. Leaks are caused by cracked filler, not cracked paint. The paint protects the filler and if this is cracked, your options are more limited. You can try to fill the cracks with bondo or something similar, but I generally take this as an indication that the canoe needs to be recanvassed. I need to strip it all off and re-paint, I would assume.  How? Wet-and-dry sand paper?  Chemical?  If so, which chemical?  Should I remove the keel before removing the paint?  Use a semi-gloss finish as recommended by Stelmok and Thurlow?

Chemical strippers may eat right through the filler, depending on the formula used. Sanding down to the filler is fine, but be sure not to sand too deeply and expose canvas weave or it’ll leak for sure.  Paint is your choice, but I use marine enamel. Semi-gloss tends to not show imperfections in the filler as gloss does, but many people use gloss paint to advantage. I do not believe that the canoe needs to re-canvased.  I use it presently to fly fish for kamloops trout in the Merritt/Kamloops area and it works fine.

Good, although canvassing is not all that tough. There are a couple of articles and back issues of Wooden Canoe that talk about it. Jerry and Rollin’s book also details it well. You can do it yourself for about $150 in materials and an afternoon’s worth of time. Enjoy your canoe. They make great friends. -Tim — Tim Hewitt – Webmaster Wooden Canoe Heritage Association, Ltd http://www.wcha.org

Response:

Howdy all!  I need some help here. I own a canvas-covered cedar ribbed canoe [Chestnut Prospector Fort Garry, circa 1970] in need of repairs and paint.  First, any books to recommend? I have borrowed Stelmok and Thurlow’s *The Wood & Canvas Canoe*.  Fine book and great for anybody wishing to restore a canvas canoe, but I would prefer not to "restore" the canoe.  Any other books? Specifically: Some of the planks are cracked.  My father in the past has placed small flat pieces of hard-wood over these cracks and held them in place with marine epoxy. Varnish then covers the works. It appears to have worked well over the years.  I might use small pieces of cedar instead.  I would prefer not to use sheet-metal and have to remove the ribs. The paint is cracked and peeled.  The canvas is a little loose in a couple of places.  Trail-Head in Ottawa painted the canoe for me in 1994 and frankly, I do not think they did a good job. I need to strip it all off and re-paint, I would assume.  How? Wet-and-dry sand paper?  Chemical?  If so, which chemical?  Should I remove the keel before removing the paint?  Use a semi-gloss finish as recommended by Stelmok and Thurlow? I do not believe that the canoe needs to re-canvased.  I use it presently to fly fish for kamloops trout in the Merritt/Kamloops area and it works fine. Cheers, Burnaby, BC

Response:

Question:

After checking out some books at the library, I went out to Wal-mart and spent about $65.  I bought an 8′ rod, a Martin reel, and Cortland line, backing, and a few leaders.  I also picked up an assortment of flies. After setting up the rod and doing some false casts,  I felt like the rod was very, very fast.  Can I do anything with my line and leader to neutralize the fast action, or this a result of a $20 rod?  Currently I have a WF6F and 7.5 4X on the rod? I am fishing rivers and streams in central KY preferrably for trout or smallmouth. Any help and advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brian

Response:

It’s the design of the rod.  I guess you could try WF7F but that could limit your casting distance.  But if it’s really bothering you take the rod back, Wally World is usually pretty good on returns.  Try picking up a rod from a store that has knowledgeable flyfisherman.  You might be able to find a quality used rod from a local fly shop, otherwise try G.I. Joe’s (I set my dad up entirely for $130) or maybe even Bi-Mart. Also, you might want to try 9′ leaders instead of 7.5, I’ve found them a little more effective.

Response:

No, you can’t neutralize it, just go with the flow.  Use this outfit for casting larger and heavier flies and pick yourself a medium to soft action rod the next go-round.  Go to a fly shop and try out different weights, lengths and actions and then use that to plan your next purchase.  The action you have is build into your rod and you can not dampen the action.  You could use a heavier line to flex you rod more but then you are defeating the purpose. Gunner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -After checking out some books at the library, I went out to Wal-mart and spent about $65.  I bought an 8′ rod, a Martin reel, and Cortland line, backing, and a few leaders.  I also picked up an assortment of flies. After setting up the rod and doing some false casts,  I felt like the rod was very, very fast.  Can I do anything with my line and leader to neutralize the fast action, or this a result of a $20 rod?  Currently I have a WF6F and 7.5 4X on the rod? I am fishing rivers and streams in central KY preferrably for trout or smallmouth. Any help and advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brian

Response:

…

Olemiss, Learn to cast this 8′ stick. Learn to catch fish with it. Try not to get caught up in the need to buy more stuff. There will be plenty of time for that later, believe me. Mitch

Response:

After setting up the rod and doing some false casts,  I felt like the rod was very, very fast.  Can I do anything with my line and leader to neutralize the fast action, or this a result of a $20 rod?  Currently I have a WF6F and 7.5 4X on the rod?

How far were you trying to cast?  In my experience, the Wal-mart/K-mart type rods aren’t usually very fast.  If you’re a newbie, you probably aren’t casting very far (*I* didn’t anyway!).  As you work more line out, the rod shouldn’t seem so fast.   The other problem could be that the rod really wants a heavier line than it’s rated.  That can be a problem sometimes.  My nephew had a Cortland 3/4 weight that really wanted a 5 weight line.  You never know unless you try it out. I used a K-mart rod for years, and caught a bunch of fish on it.  You may just need to work on your timing.   Have fun!! Lee — Lee Hiers, AA4GA Cornelia, Georgia http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/4473

Response:

Question:

: Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in : California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states.   I would have to disagree with you on this one, Pat.  If you could point me at some written source of this, I would greatly appreciate it, because it certainly is too bizarre to be true.   I could believe that it is illegal to water ski without an approved life jacket being worn.  But it CANT be illegal to simply wear a PDF that is not approved while boating.   First off, what is the definition of a PFD?  ( I know, it is a personal floatation device).  My bathing suit is not an approved PDF, does that make it illegal to wear?   OK, that was a smart ass answer.  How about a wet suit?  It floats, but is not approved.  Am I breaking your law by wearing my wetsuit while sitting in the ski boat?   How about my SOS suspenders?  Do I really break a law when I put these on?  Does your law really prefer me to wear nothing at all over a non approved floatation device?   I don’t think so.   There are situations that may require a life jacket to be worn. Water skiing may be one of them, but I am not sure.  But there is no requirement for an adult to wear a life jacket in a boat.  There has to be an approved life jacket for him, it doesn’t need to be worn. And putting on a wet suit, or an inflatable device, or even a ski belt shouldn’t be any legal problem.   You might be confusing a rule that was enacted rather recently.  I forget the actual wording, but I believe that it required *children* under a certain age (I think it was 12) to wear an approved life jacket whenever the boat was underway *unless* any of a whole bunch of exceptions.  The exceptions included being in an enclosed cabin or being tethered.   Rod McInnis

Response:

i live on a lake and use skibelts for just swimming around.  i don’t, and don’t allow visitors to swim unless they wear some type of floatation.  since we don’t jump or play any water sports here, the skibelts are nice to just float in the water off of the dock.  i really dislike having vests riding up under my armpits. so i like to keep skibelts around.  but i’m having difficult times finding them too and i suspect soon i won’t be able to find any.  last i looked, E&B Marine still carried some inexpensive ones.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any

non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other

states.  You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as

dangerous as this one.  You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on

an unconsciencious or disoriented person.  I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one

nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat.  My comments to the original poster was about these ski

belts only, no other device was mentioned.

<snippers Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

I’m afraid that I still have to stand by my original statement regarding the legality/illegality of wearing non-USCG approved PFD’s, including ski belts. There are two "sets" of law in California which deal with the wearing of life jackets: the first is the Charter Boat Safety Act, which empowers (and requires) the Captain of commercial vessels to order passengers into life jackets under particular conditions; the second, which is the one with which we are concerned at the moment, is the Harbours and Navigation Code, Section 658.3: "658.3.  (a) No person shall operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel that is 26 feet or less in length unless every person on board who is six years of age or less is wearing a type I, II, or III Coast Guard-approved personal flotation device while that motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is underway.    (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a sailboat on which a person who is six years of age or less is restrained by a harness tethered to the vessel, or to a person operating a vessel on which a person who is six years of age or less is in an enclosed cabin.    (c) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel if the operator is reacting to an emergency rescue situation.    (d) The following definitions govern the construction of this section:    (1) "Enclosed cabin" means a space on board a vessel that is surrounded by bulkheads and covered by a roof.    (2) "Operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel" means to be in control or in charge of a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel while it is underway.    (3) "Underway" means all times except when the motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is anchored, moored, or aground.    (e) A violation of this section is an infraction punishable as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 668." Nothing in this section can be construed as to forbid the wearing of non-approved floatation devices, as requiring a person to wear an approved device is not the same as forbidding the wearing of an unapproved one, nor is the wearing of PFD’s by anyone over the age of six addressed in any way. An exhaustive search of all current California State Law failed to turn up any other section which would forbid persons aged 21 or under from wearing  non-approved PFD’s. So while these ski belts may, indeed, be dangerous in some situations, it is not illegal for anyone to wear them. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

:Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG :approved PFD here in :California while boating or watersking Must be some interesting wording to that legislation. Lets see, my wetsuit offers a little boyancy, is it illegal to wear because its not an approved PFD? I guess its illegal to wear something which isn’t a PFD but *sombody* might think *is* a PFD? — george  

Response:

:To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a :great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or :not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose :society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all :risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to :which all people are entitled. you know I agree completely, and I’ve said as much on many ocasions. I dont know what came over me to propose such a thing.. — george  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippers : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming.   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc.     Rod McInnis

But my comment was not directed at the wisdom of wearing PFD’s during any particular activity, rather whether or not such wearing of PFD’s should be a matter of legislation. Is it smart to wear a PFD anytime you go into the water? Of course – you never knows when you might slip and fall, particularly when dealing with slippery wet rocks such as one finds in trout streams. Does this then mean that you should be *forced at gunpoint* (for such is the actual implication of such legisation) to wear a PFD during this activity? The risk of drowning is every bit as real as it is during boating, and possibly even greater than the risk of drowning while waterskiing, since while waterskiing rescue is readily available and one actually expects to fall down from time to time. To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to which all people are entitled. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

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Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them.

Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states.  You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as dangerous as this one.  You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on an unconsciencious or disoriented person.  I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat.  My comments to the original poster was about these ski belts only, no other device was mentioned.      We know that USCG until recently had not approved the automatic inflatable type one life vest, but that was due to an argument over how to inspect them for functionality.  These vests are arguably the safest available because they are relatively comfortable and provide the most bouyancy of any vest sold in most stores. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

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 I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended.  For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing?  If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded.

As best as I can find it is legislated at the state level.  In NC you must wear a CG approved flotation device while skiing, etc only if there is not a designated spotter other than the boat driver.  If you’ve got a spotter then nothing or a belt is ok.  I have both and many of the adults prefer the belt but I tell the kids they have to wear the jacket. As to a source, the discount catalogs have them.  Around here Walmart has them and Boaters Discount World, a boat store chain also have them. They’re $7-$9. Lawrence…….

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|   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in | regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to | any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped | violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, | etc.   … or riding in a boat.  You never know what you’ll run into, or what will run into you.  Many folks where seatbelts in their car, for the same reason. — Bob Wood                                                       ascom Nexion                                                        phone:  508-266-2350

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: : :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : :should never be used on a human. : : we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, : which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, : but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. : I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t : be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably : by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills : and slipping right out of the belts. : : : — : george   : : : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming.   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc.     Rod McInnis

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: Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life : preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" :   : Don Land   Why on Earth do you want one?   I always enjoyed giving the girls the ski belt because of the increased likelyhood that they would lose their bathing suit top.  :-)   But they are just not a good idea.  I doubt that they would be Coast Guard approved as a life jacket, since they have no tendency to right an unconccious wearer.  In fact, I remember taking a fall wearing one of those and having it slip down to my knees!  Definately not a perferred position!   Rod McInnis

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They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and should never be used on a human. Pat — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george    

If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming. Don’t get me wrong – I think that life vests are extremely useful items and I wouldn’t dream of going sailing without them. But this nanny-state attitude has *really* got to stop. I do not defer responsibility for my own life to the State, nor will I allow that responsibility to be taken from me by force by meddling do-gooders. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

:They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george  

Response:

: They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : should never be used on a human. : Pat   Are you sure that they are "illegal"?   I am pretty sure that they no longer qualify as a type three life saving device.  But that doesn’t make them illegal, they just don’t count.   I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended.   For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing?   If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded.   Barefoot water skiiers tend to *not* wear the Coast Guard approved life jackets.  Instead, a wet suit is worn (even in warm water).   The reason is simple, taking a fall barefooting will rip most jackets right off your body.  And I can tell you that it doesn’t feel too good to have a life jacket ripped off.   If you wear a wet suit, and keep your body lines smooth, you will skim across the surface of the water.  The special "barefoot" suits have extra padding on the seat (what you try to fall on) and chest (which is what hits when you "trip").   They provide plenty of floatation, but are not an approved life jacket.   Another place where life jackets are rarely worn are trick skiers. The jacket impedes thier motion, and the competition seems to be as much on swim suit fashion as anything else.   Rod McInnis

Response:

They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and should never be used on a human. Pat — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

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Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" Don Land

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Question:

  Does anyone have info on the Big Hole in July . I have to drop the Wife off in Salmon, ID. so I thought I would try fishing the Wisdom area. I have never been in that part of Montana and could use some help, where to stay , fish etc. We will be coming from  Ennis, Mt.    Thanks    Harry

Response:

  Does anyone have info on the Big Hole in July .

Harry: Call and book a trip with Dick Sharon at Fishing Headquarters in Dillon, MT.  You can get the number from information–I believe the area code is 406.  He’s a great guide, and you will love the Big Hole. dcook

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 Does anyone have info on the Big Hole in July . I have to drop the Wife off in Salmon, ID. so I thought I would try fishing the Wisdom area. I have never been in that part of Montana and could use some help, where to stay , fish etc. We will be coming from  Ennis, Mt.   Thanks   Harry

Hi Harry, If you are coming through Ennis, don’t overlook the Madison River. I like the section below Ennis where it breaks into channels before it goes into Ennis Lake. Regarding the Big Hole: There are plenty of motels, etc in Wisdom, Wise River, and Melrose if that is your interest. If you plan on camping, you can do so at most (not all) Montana state fishing access points. Good Luck. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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