Question:

I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.

Agreed.  I think the only way to settle this for sure is to find someone familiar with this particular hatch on that body of water. Wolfgang

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly."

H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata. Wolfgang

Response:

JAFB, Wolfie — TBone

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia. Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." H. limbata is much too light colored and too large to be my mystery bug.  Still having trouble getting on the web, so I haven’t been able to look at H. recurvata (or Litobrancha recurvata as it now seems to be called), or the Epeorus you mentioned earlier for that matter. I’m surprised to read that the Green Drake is considered by Kropp and Cormier to be the largest of the North american mayflies; every reference I’ve seen says that honor belongs to H. limbata.

I think you may have that backwards in that I think you’ll find that Recurvata is larger than Limbata, but only just.  In any case, they are close enough in size that it doesn’t really matter – if one is much too large, the other will be as well.  If they are too large, then color really doesn’t matter, but I’ve seen references that indicate both can range in color.  Based on the information that Recurvata/Limbata is much too large, I’d try to get a look at Epeorus.  Here’s a link I found: http://www.mayfly.com/articles/WW7.html by Al Caucci and I’ve also emailed you a copy of the "suspect." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Wolfgang

Response:

rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake),

was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                       Tom

Response:

rdean notes: Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), was….then got reclassified as Litobrancha Recurvata. Geez, all this latin has me dizzy. Let me grab a beer!                      Tom

Ah…thanks.  I guess then I ought to add that everything I’ve indicated in this thread may be equally outdated.  I’m almost afraid to ask, but…any idea why? TC, R

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger.

What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…" TC, R

Response:

I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2.

Um…Recurvata is Hexagenia Recurvata ((Great) Dark Green Drake), and the L. mentioned by Tom is likely from the similar, but smaller, H. Limbata.  While it would seemingly fit Wolfgang’s description ("Hatches" even makes mention of it appearing "almost black" on the wing), it is a Hexagenia.   Wolfgang – you said something about being certain it was not hexagenia – why? As H. Recurvata and H. Limbata are close, with the Limbata hatch even being known mistakenly in Michigan as, again, according to "Hatches," a "Caddis Hatch," and also being called a "Michigan Caddis" or "Michigan Mayfly." TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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      I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all   fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I   found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the   state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as   interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty   much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance,   habitat, and habit of the target species. Although the Web has a vast amount of information, it is often difficult or even impossible to find the specific information that you want. I would like to see the studies done at public Universities made available on the Internet. Because the data would need to be inputted, it would be costly and difficult for older studies, but virtually all current research is composed on a computer and making them available to the public wouldn’t be a monumental task. This access could be a condition for any researchers getting public funding for their research.     Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as   easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would   necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a   specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know   of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to   specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they   are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a   stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason   to be familiar with my target species. I have corresponded with a couple entomologists specializing in Mayflies that were very willing to help me with some questions I had. I can give you their email addresses if you’re interested but with the little bit of information you have (and it is from a forty year old memory) I don’t think they will be able to help you.     As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal   differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even   unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown   to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of   small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time.   There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known   species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an   uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of   numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial   confluence of circumstances. You may very well be right about this. One of the researchers I contacted said that they were MANY unknown species and local variations. There just isn’t much grant money available to study them. The vast amount of research done on insects is on insect control (where the money is). Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What about an Epeorus variety – "Iron Dun," and even "Quill Gordon," perhaps, to some (or "Dark Wing Quill Gordon")?  If you have the Caucci/Nastasi "Hatches," you will find info there, or perhaps a web search.  If you do the web search, don’t take the first picture you find, if it appears unlike the one you remember.  I did a search, looked at a couple, and there seems to be no actual consensus among the few sites I looked at as to exactly what was what. I did, however, notice this one, which unfortunately, has no picture: http://www.maineflyfishing.com/bluedun/pattern.htm Look under "Quill Gordon," where it says, "Quill Gordons are called Epeorus Pleuralis (ee-pee-or-us ploor-alice) by those up on Latin and just plain old "bigggggg dark mayflies" or "Iron Duns" by the rest of us. They are big (size 10/12), dark, have two tails (barred and equal to their body length), double  wings…"

Unfortunately, I seem to be unable to access anything on the web right now.  We had some trouble with the college server last week.  Looks like it may not be entirely resolved yet.  I’ll take a look at the Epeorus as soon as I can. Thanks Wolfgang

Response:

I think the prize goes to Tom (a shiny, new nickel) as Kropp and Cormier’s "Mayflies’ list the Dark Green Drake as the largest of the N.A. mayfly species, larger than our hexes.  There is quite a size range with body length ranging from a 16 to 40 millimeters and a recommended hook size from 12 to a whopping #2. According to the book, they are clumsy on takeoff as they are so large, often skipping across  the water. They emerge at dusk or after sunset being primarily a cool lake species but slow, silty parts of rivers will hold them too. BTW, at the beginning of August, we drove through a blizzard light cahill hatch at dusk.  Still trying to get the critters off my car. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula.

I was fortunate to fish a Brown Drake hatch this year at Silver Creek. These are by far the largest mayflies I’ve ever seen, and the hatch was prolific. The hatch occurs in the evening and through the night, until it’s so dark that you can only detect the takes by ear. These bugs live in slow moving water with a silty bottom. The nymphs are swimmers, and they’ll take fish before the hatch with a stripped retrieve. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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 Wolfgang, dear boy.  There is only one mayfly that is as prolific as the ones you describe.  Hexagina Limbatas!  So thick are they during the early days that they would cover a cabin and all the screen doors with their numbers. God!  What an insect! George Gehrke

Response:

  Well, roughly anyway. Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks. Wolfgang

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I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet. I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  They were NOT Hexigina. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes. Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.   Joel Axelrad **DFD**

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Nope.  Found a picture of Ephemera simulans: http://www.flyshop.com/bench/hatchguide/index.cfm?page=bug&row=13 Not the same critter at all.  As the common name suggests, this beastie is brown.  The one I remember is black. Thanks.

Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

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Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas?

wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image… –waldo

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Wolfgang asks: Any ideas?

ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access). People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.                                   Tom

Response:

Did it look like this? http://www.charlesmeck.com/600slatedrake.jpg

That looks a lot more like what I remember.  There’s still a good bit of brown in this one but, in truth, 40 some years later it’s hard to be certain that the bugs I saw and which I was NOT interested in examining closely did not have some brown.  On the other hand, a brief search on the web shows that both Isonychia bicolor and Isonychia sadleri are referred to as Slate Drakes and both of these, according to the hatch charts I looked at, run in the 14-12 size range.  Again, it’s quite possible that my memory has magnified them, but I’m fairly certain these bugs were bigger. All in all, I think uncle Wally’s candidate looks the most promising.     Wolfgang

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger. Any ideas? wolfie, no discounting…. it must have been…. http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/earth/images/bat_big_jpg_image…

THAT’S IT!  I’d recognize the bastard anywhere! Wolfgang who is reasonably certain he doesn’t even want to know what the nymphs look like.      :(

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I think they were some kind of a variation of huge Brown Drake. Hear me out. I’ve got the same question… 55-60 years ago, when I was growing up in Chicago, I lived on the far north side 2 blocks from Lake Michigan.  Every summer, sometime in June, there was a massive hatch of Mayflys almost exactly as you describe.  They were coming off the shore of the lake. There was no other body of water within 50 miles that could support such a hatch. It was so prolific it completely blackened the street lights, covered the store front windows – you couldn’t see out.  They covered the ground so thick they squished under your feet.

I remember talking about this with you, but I don’t recall whether you said anything about the substrate there.  The bugs I encountered would almost have to have been burrowers.  The bottom of this lake was very soft….even very near shore where turbulence would wash away at least some of the muck you would sink at least ankle deep in the stuff.  I’m not intimately familiar with the Lake Michigan shoreline in the Chicago area, so I may have missed it, but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such? I remember some of them having a very dark brown hue as well as slate gray to black.  They were easily size 6 – 8.  

Size and color scheme sound about right. They were NOT Hexigina.

Absolutely right.  Impossible to mistake the Hex for anything else. Moreover, while I don’t remember just how long they were around, we encountered them when we first left the cottage in the morning, which would have been fairly early (at a cottage on a lake in what we thought of as the north woods nothing…..well, almost nothing…could keep us indoors much past sunrise on a sunny day) and I remember that we stayed inside for the rest of the day, and perhaps even the next.  These bugs were active….VERY active….throughout the day. I never found out what they were for sure. In recent years I’ve seen other similar hatches coming off clear Canadian Lakes that were known to be Brown Drakes.

Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that? Wolf, keep it as a sweet memory of your youth.  Dream about someday being on a stream or lake holding 10 lb. Rainbow when a hatch like that comes off.  The fish go wild and you go bonkers. Heaven.

Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

Response:

Wolfgang writes… but I don’t believe there’s any large protected area that would have that kind of soft bottom.  Do you know of any such?

That’s true.  It was a clean sandy bottom.  Not protected.  Well washed  by the wave action.  Vegatation about 30 to 50 yds out from shore. Didn’t you also tell me the last time we talked about them that you thought you had seen them again in the Chicago area…..or am I imagining that?

I don’t think so.  You’re imagining. Pretty picture!  Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, I find the thought of finding the hatch again even more appealing than the idea of the monster fish. Wolfgang

I still think they were Brown Drakes.  Looked a lot like the picture from the web site Warren posted.  But they were 6 & 8 for sure – not 10 & 12. Big guys!  I’ll dream of catching 10 lb. rainbow.  You dream of being blanketed by a hatch of monster mayflys. we need to talk logistics concerning the upcoming trip.

Let me know the details. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

Wolfgang asks: Any ideas? ask around among the academic types for someone who knows an entomologist. There are probably very good entomologies online(which may limit access).

I’ve found all kinds of good entomological sites on the web, but all fall short of what would be ideal for this situation.  For example, I found a site that has range maps for all known mayfly species within the state of Wisconsin (a USGS site, of all the odd places) but as interesting, and doubtless valuable, this information is, it’s pretty much useless without cross referenced information regarding appearance, habitat, and habit of the target species.  Other sites have much of that information, but matching the information on various sites is daunting, to say the least.  I have found some references to individual species which sounded promising for one reason or another but in many cases have been unable to find photographs of the bugs in question….and on and on. Consulting an entomologist has occurred to me, but this is neither as easy nor necessarily as promising as it might sound.  First, one would necessarily have to find an aquatic entomologist (or at least one with a specific interest in aquatic species…..a fly fisher perhaps).  I know of a good aquatic entomologist at UW, Stevens Point but he happens to specialize in plecoptera and, scientific specialties being what they are, this might not help much even if I were trying to identify a stonefly unless he happened to be a taxonomist or have some other reason to be familiar with my target species. People will probably suggest Ephemera and Hexes, but there an awful lot of obscure mayfly species, and lakes have locale specific subspecies you might never encounter unless you blunder on them.

Right, on all counts.  Both Ephemera and Isonychia look like good candidates based on photos, but both are questionable on the basis of size.  I don’t yet know enough about habit or habitat with regard to either genus.  Hexagenia limbata is definitely out for a variety of reasons. As you stated, local subspecies might look and behave a great deal differently than expected for a variety of reasons.  Hell, it isn’t even unreasonable to suppose that we might be dealing with a species unknown to science.  Granted, it isn’t likely but new species (especially of small and highly localized arthropods) do turn up from time to time. There is also the possibility (admittedly also unlikely) of a known species behaving in an uncharacteristic manner.  For example, an uncommon species might suddenly reproduce successfully in undreamed of numbers within a given location due to an unusual and highly beneficial confluence of circumstances. I will venture with the closest I have ever seen. It would be: L(Litobrancha?).Recurvata, which was once classified with the Hexes.

I just looked up Litobrancha.  Interestingly, the first hit I looked at was a UW Stevens Point website which contains a list of "AQUATIC INSECTS OF WISCONSIN RECENT SYNONYMS AT SPECIFIC OR HIGHER LEVELS" authored by none other than Stanley W. Szczytko, the aquatic entomologist I mentioned above, and Jeffrey J. Dimick, who used to be (and quite possibly still is) president of a local TU chapter in the area.  They list Litobrancha  in the "recent taxonomy" column next to Hexagenia (in part) under "prior taxonomy", and Litobrancha recurvata next to Hexagenia recurvata.  Looking at another dozen or sites, I have not yet found a photo.  I’ll keep working on this one. In PA they are called Dark Green Drakes. They hatch at or into dark, sometimes on real cloudy days, a bit earlier, say 7 PM. They are huge, maybe bigger than the Green Drakes. The bodies are a darkish grey, with rings of paler yellow tan along the abdomen. Wings are a smokey grey, mottled somewhat. They look nasty, as they are a bit heftier in the body(squatter, might be better). Hatched out of a silty pool in Penns one night on Makela and I, fish going silly, no good imitations, massive bugs in mouth and hair, etc.etc. That was in 1993, haven’t seen one since.

Doesn’t sound like my bug.  I don’t know when they came off, but they were very active through a bright sunny day.  Of course, it must be remembered that I’m basing all of this on memories of an event that occurred more than forty years ago and that I was not much interested in close observation of the bugs at the time.  In all likelihood, I’ll never be able to solve this mystery.  I thought (and I still do) that my best bet was to put it out here and hope that someone just happens to be familiar with this hatch in this particular place.  I think it’s just about time for a brilliant lurker with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Ephemeroptera to show him or herself and demonstrate how pitiful the rest of us really are.     Wolfgang thanks tom.

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  Well, roughly anyway.   Maybe this is it? Late June through mid July – Ephemera Simulans, Brown Drake, this is the most prevalent large mayfly hatch in the Upper Peninsula. Willi

Response:

Well, roughly anyway. My father’s cousin, Sam Friederich, owned a couple acres of land and a cottage (a dacha, as a Russian physicist I recently spoke with, "…not what YOU call a cottage here!" called it) on Kangaroo lake in Door County, Wisconsin.  For those not familiar with the area, Door County is the long finger of land which runs to the northeast up into Lake Michigan and thus forms Green Bay to the west. Kangaroo lake, http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=45.0325&lon=-87.15889 was, in the late 1950s, lightly developed.  There were a couple of small resorts, a few permanent year round homes, several cottages like the one we frequently stayed at, all of them on the larger, southern section of the lake south of the causeway, and a single very large estate on the island.  Whatever organic pollutants entered the lake as a result of human habitation were still minimal at that time.  In other words, the water was very clean and the biome had probably changed little since pre-Columbian times.  Kangaroo lake was a wonderful place to swim, even for city bred kids like me, as long as one didn’t allow one’s feet to touch the bottom.  The lake bed was marl, and thus about as icky a thing to come into contact with as was imagineable….except, of course, for the things that actually LIVED in that oozy bottom! One day all those things that lived in the bottom (although I didn’t realize their origin at the time) came out.  The air was filled with bugs.  Millions of bugs.  Maybe billions of bugs.  They were so bold or so crazed or stupid that they would land on anything or anybody.  Adult reassurances that they were perfectly harmless fell on deaf ears and neither I nor my brothers or sister could be coaxed to go outside for any reason…..threats and coercion worked, but you get the picture. In the ensuing years, I have often wondered exactly what those bugs were.  My interest in fly fishing, running close onto twenty years worth now, makes it easy to say with certainty that they were some variety of mayfly, but I still haven’t been able to identify the species. Discounting them by about thirty percent for temporal magnification and the horror factor still leaves them at a good size eight or even a solid six…..and possibly a bit larger.  They were a dark, slate gray to nearly black and, if memory serves after all these years, they were almost certainly duns or sub-imagos….dark, nearly opaque wings. On a couple of occasions in the last two or three years I’ve made occasional efforts to locate resources on line which might solve the mystery for me but have, as yet, had no success. Any ideas? Wolfgang

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Question:

<SNIP the eye, put marabou collars on them, and finished with a built-up epoxy head).   The fishhair stood up, but the marabou got creamed. What would be a good recipe for my needs and what would be a good collar substitute?  Thanks, Adam

Go to your local hardware store, have a  look at the synthetic cords.  They come in a whole range of colours, including fluorescents. When shredded and combed out, ( Use a wire brush),these make indestructible wings for flies. Use short bits for the collars. The stuff does not soak up water, and is easy to cast. TL MC

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Going to fly fish for big peacock bass in the Amazon this October.  Problem is that you have to throw flies all day long, using anywhere from an 8 to a 10/11 wt. rod.  Now, the traditional flies are usually at least 6-8" long and damn wind resistant.  So you get the idea about having your arm replaced at the end of each day. Anyway, I’d like to make up a mess of 6" streamers that will have a nice profile, but yet be not too wind resistant.  One suggestion was to pattern them after Deceivers, but without feathers (as the peacocks will rip them up pronto).  I’m not the greatest tyer and I look to make the flies pretty much down and dirty.  These fish are so aggressive that one doesn’t need to be fancy with their tying.  So, I’d like some help with the type of materials to use that will give me the profile and yet be easy to throw.  Also, I would imagine that if one was to make a deceiver sans feathers, once again certain materials would be better than others.  For example, I’ve fish the peacock in Venezuela (fish went up to 17#), and made relatively thin streamers out of fishhair or bozo hair (just tied on several different colors behind the eye, put marabou collars on them, and finished with a built-up epoxy head).   The fishhair stood up, but the marabou got creamed. What would be a good recipe for my needs and what would be a good collar substitute?  Thanks, Adam

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Question:

ROFF became a sort of sociology experiment for me.

I commend you. What a refreshing and clever idea! Please let us know what hypotheses you were attempting to theorize. Here are a few of my own hypotheses that your little experiment appears to confirm: (1) If you come across as a loser on USENET, people will naturally assume you are that way in real life. Why wouldn’t they? (2) Occam’s Razor applies to USENET. In other words, if the simplest explanation for your behavior is that you are a dishonest a–hole, then that’s how you’ll be perceived despite whatever more complicated explanation you might provide. If clear evidence points to a case of assumed identity, people are going to see it as such regardless of protracted denials. (3) Deception, dishonesty, and remorselessness are far less tolerated on USENET than are poor taste, ill humor, poor grammar, off-topic posting, or lack of knowledge about the subject. Again, I congratulate you on your experiment and I await the report of your findings. It’s quite refreshing to have been the unknowing pawn in not one, but *two* sociology experiments over the last few days. It’s good to know that my time spent on ROFF is not simply leisurely idleness. Unfortunately, statistically speaking, your attempts to "get the group riled up" have gone in vain because out of the hundreds of regular readers of this group, only a very few have even bothered to respond to you–and of those, I can’t think of any right now how have appeared at all to be "riled up" at you. For example, if the use of the F word is any indication of riled-upness (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t) then it would appear that–at least in the threads in which you have participated–you are by far the most riled. Does self-riling pleasure you? –Steve

Response:

I do regret that. My apology was an attempt to salvage that. But, what is done is done, and, boy, is this ever done…

Now you’ve got me confused–don’t worry too much, it happens. You just said that your participation on ROFF was a little sociology experiment (great idea, BTW) and that you couldn’t understand why anyone thought you cared what they said. I’m paraphrasing here, so please correct me if I’m mistaken. But it now appears that you regret your behavior. Why? Or are you still experimenting–you clever dog! Man, you’re gonna get us so confused and riled up that we just won’t know what to expect next. This is a wild ride for a naive Western boy like me, but I sure am excited at the prospects of helping you gather your data. –Steve

Response:

Ahhh, the grudge maven… When was the last time, to the nearest month, that I tried to sell something, feebly or otherwise.

Well, you’ve been feebly trying to sell us that story about how you didn’t post to ROFF on behalf of someone named Lindsey ever since it happened. But that shouldn’t be counted against you as salesmanship because nobody’s buying it. –Steve

Response:

Ahhh, the grudge maven… When was the last time, to the nearest month, that I tried to sell something, feebly or otherwise.

Part of your sociology experiment?  Nice try.  But your message brought more than a couple chuckles, I’m sure.  You can try to salve your pride any number of clever ways.  The fact is, for most of us, this is a means of social interaction, whereby we’ve made many real life friends.  All it requires is a modicum of sincerity and integrity, desire to fly fish, and making the effort to travel.  Even those who haven’t traveled have at least the sincerity and integrity part down.  I can (and have) made transactions with a number of people here that I haven’t met.  Buying a rod from you would be laughable. You wanna try and convince us that other than how you behave around here, in real life you’ve got a… well… real life?  What kind of malcontent loser would defend himself like that?  You think you’re toying with us?  Believe whatever you need to.  In the mean time, I’ll be enjoying camaraderie and friendship with these folks, even if I don’t see them for long periods at a time.  Unplug your skull from your anus and you’d realize it’s worth it. It’s too bad you keep buzzing around like a deer fly, but that’s life in the great outdoors.

Response:

Now, tell me who doesn’t ‘get it’…

You don

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Not sure Ken, but I believe you may have misinterpreted the question. Your reply suggests possible problems on returning to the lodge AFTER fishing.  I think a closer reading will reveal that Gavin was wondering why bait fishing is not allowed ON the buffet line.  A different kettle of fish altogether IMHO. Wolfgang um……are you gonna eat that?

Response:

don’t see too many beer cans, corn cans, Styrofoam worm containers, empty cigarette packs, soiled undershorts, motor oil bottles, cheeze-it wrappers and thrice used condoms left behind by fly fishermen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin Most fly-fisherman that I know have chosen to fly-fish over bait- fishing due to the challenge and enjoyment it brings to them.  Being alone or almost alone in the wild and walking up or down the river where they can feel as though they are part of the wild experience is a major part for many fly-fisherman.  Locations that cater to that type of experience often have a lot in stake in keeping the experience as pristine and pure as they can as well as keeping the fish as large and healthy as possible. A couple of states have asked their local anglers to help them with how to stock their local waters.  Would they rather catch: 1) a few large fish, or 2) many small fish.  Each state’s end result was "a few large fish."  This is especially true with fly-fisherman.  Fly-fisherman go to the lodges for the pristine experience, education, and to catch "The Big One." The problem with bait-fishing is that it spoils the experience and fishing conditions for the fly-fisherman.  Live bait, like worms, can contaminate the water with diseases, like whirling disease, which kills or harms the fish.  Treble hooks used for Power Bait are often swallowed and can not be removed without harming the fish.  Bait- fisherman fishing in groups allow their poles to rest against something while they wait for a fish to take-the-bait as they talk, make jokes, drink, and generally pas the time.  This is not the experience most fly- fisherman want to see as they come around a bend in the river. In locations that I fish where bait-fishing is also allowed, I cringe every time I see things like this.  I move through the area as fast as I can until I get to another pristine location which will always be farther than their voice travels.  I often find litter and discarded fishing-gear in locations that bait-fishermen were.  This also destroys the experience for me and generally makes my blood boil. Because of fly-fisherman like me that spend money to keep private locations like this alive, they have normally restrict the fishing to fly-fishing with C&R restrictions. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                            quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly-fishing. . . . When I want to go fly-fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only.  I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Since you are only 16 and the only one in your family that enjoys fly- fishing, just go where your mom and dad take you. BTW, lodges will be different according to what the people in a given area want.  I have no idea what lodges are like in South Africa.  Since you own a fly-shop in South Africa, why don’t you tell us why the serious lodges are fly-fising only.  You are the South Africa Pro. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman

Ah, the "I’m OK, You’re OK" psychology.  Well here we do things a little differently.  Sometimes it’s "I’m OK, You’re not OK", and sometimes it’s "I’m not OK, You’re not OK", but definitely "You’re not OK".  :-) Regards, Jeff

Response:

| Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly | | I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman | in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman | | Ah, the "I’m OK, You’re OK" psychology.  Well here we do things a little | differently.  Sometimes it’s "I’m OK, You’re not OK", and sometimes it’s "I’m | not OK, You’re not OK", but definitely "You’re not OK".  :-) | | Regards, | Jeff Im not joking there are many people around here who look up to me mostly youngsters though, you see fly fishing is also relatively new around here I was probably the youngest fly fisherman around my area I started about 6 years ago aged 10 and was probably only one of a handful of people who could actually do it properly I went to a number of clinics so you see a lot of people look up to me because like I said fly fishing is new and I have caught species of fish that many fly fisherman have never heard of before in there life and I am still "EXPERIMENTING" with our other local fish especially carp, catfish etc. with very limited success so I try fly fishing when ever and where ever I can otherwise I go back to bait/spin fishing practice makes perfect and the best teacher around here are the fish hope I never upset any one just airing my views tight lines Gavin

Response:

I started about 6 years ago aged 10

Are you only 16 years old?  Just a lad.  All the power to you boy. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

told him what to buy at the local tackle store so he could fish nymphs with his spinning rod. Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.)

Sounds like there was one there you might be able to borrow once in a while. I suspect you both left with a grin on the face. Big Dale

Response:

Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.)

    right you are, rw; i’ve had two like that, and it’s tough to beat the memories.     …on the other hand, i also had a receptionist back in the mid 70’s who just *loved* to watch; on balance, i’d say it’s too close to call. wayno

Response:

 At 50 I tend to envy the lad.Ah for the years I spent at war to be returned to me so that all my memories were of the fish I lost and the fish I landed. Gavin you are in for some good memories by the time you reach 50. —  Don Thompson  Zoomie(BushBug)  RVN 69-73  ACA#3460  TLCB#335  Any Time, Any Place  Pull the chocks, lets get this kite in the air.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started about 6 years ago aged 10 Are you only 16 years old?  Just a lad.  All the power to you boy. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also forgot to mention that I used to do spinfishing and baitfishing in south africa for the local species of fish (carp catfish bream etc.) these fish are almost impossible to catch on fly because dams are usually 30 meters deep (probably more) they were murky etc so I used to spin and bait fish as well(so fly fishing is not an option)  and disagree with what all you said as every one here uses a type of high protein bait made of dog food to catch trout I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman regards and tight lines Gavin

I think Lefty Kreh would differ with you.  I’ve seen a t.v. show where he was fly-fishing for carp in what looked like very deep water. Additionally, I’ve caught carp on a fly.  I’ve also seen others fly- fish for catfish.  My friend is in the Bahamas is right now fly-fishing for tuna, shark, and marlin.  He chose to do that instead of coming to the clave with me.  You would be surprised what you can fish for with a fly. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

______ Sir Gavin?  I you sure you’re not a trolling fisherman.  Where did  you park your boat? — Mr.G. http://www.gink.com "the sage continues"

  gink.vcf

< 1K Download

Response:

After I caught my six trout and a couple of nice whitefish I let the kid fish with my rod, which was rigged with a bead-head pheasant tail and hare’s ear tandem and a foam indicator.

Ah… the joys of fucking nymph fishing!! Regards, Jeff

Response:

I also forgot to mention that I used to do spinfishing and baitfishing in south africa for the local species of fish (carp catfish bream etc.) these fish are almost impossible to catch on fly because dams are usually 30 meters deep (probably more) they were murky etc so I used to spin and bait fish as well(so fly fishing is not an option)  and disagree with what all you said as every one here uses a type of high protein bait made of dog food to catch trout I know how I am going on here I think I am a well respected fly fisherman in my area and I respect all other fly fisherman regards and tight lines Gavin

Response:

That kid will never forget that day!  Cheers.  :-) Natty

Response:

don’t see too many beer cans, corn cans, Styrofoam worm containers, empty cigarette packs, soiled undershorts, motor oil bottles, cheeze-it wrappers and thrice used condoms left behind by fly fishermen

On my recently reported trip to the Stanislaus, we saw nothing but spin fishermen.  I won’t say that there was no trash, but my brother and I were able to pick up *every* piece of trash we saw, and take it back to the dumpster without a sack.  That means there wasn’t much trash. — Levi "So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Response:

… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places

Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Yuck. — Ken Fortenberry- and I hear bait fishermen smell bad too

Response:

… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ? Yuck.

What Ken’s tactfully saying is that they’ve seen your family and don’t want them to come. Joe F.

Response:

Bait fishing tends to result in gut hooked fish. This is not ideal for C&R. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Response:

What Ken’s tactfully saying is that they’ve seen your family and don’t want them to come. Joe F.

Seen ‘em myself.  Never did like ‘em, their feet don’t match. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

… I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places Can you imagine how disgusting it would be to have someone who’s been handling worms all day in front of you in the buffet line ? Pawing over the prawns, fondling the foie gras, sticking his worm drenched digits in YOUR caviar ?

Not sure Ken, but I believe you may have misinterpreted the question. Your reply suggests possible problems on returning to the lodge AFTER fishing.  I think a closer reading will reveal that Gavin was wondering why bait fishing is not allowed ON the buffet line.  A different kettle of fish altogether IMHO. Wolfgang um……are you gonna eat that?

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Watch one of the bobber-bubbas fish for trout on a stream.  They’ll plop down beside a hole with their cooler and a lawn chair and wait for a trout to swim by and dunk their bobber.  They would just as soon plop down beside the hole you’re fishing in and seriously think they have the same opportunity to catch a trout out of that hole as you do; which by the time they get settled is probably true.  Damndest thing I ever saw involving a bobber-bubba fishing for trout was a pickup beside a trout stream, bubba in a lawn chair killing worms, his wife squatting over a 2 burner Coleman stove and a frying pan on the truck’s tailgate waiting for lunch. Don’t really understand it, Bluegill are better eating, custom made for bobber-bubbas, and a bobber-bubba and a fly fisherman can work the same pond with equal results for the frying pan.  The fly fisherman will just have more fun.  It’s also much more fun to watch a kid catch a bunch of Bluegill on a cane pole with a bobber than watch a kid not catch a trout on a cane fly rod. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

I am the only person in my family who enjoys fly fishing every one thinks it is too much hard work so just do normal bait fishing instead and when I want to go fly fishing it is usually to some serious lodge with fly fishing only I want to know why bait fishing is not allowed in these places thanks Gavin

Most fly-fisherman that I know have chosen to fly-fish over bait- fishing due to the challenge and enjoyment it brings to them.  Being alone or almost alone in the wild and walking up or down the river where they can feel as though they are part of the wild experience is a major part for many fly-fisherman.  Locations that cater to that type of experience often have a lot in stake in keeping the experience as pristine and pure as they can as well as keeping the fish as large and healthy as possible. A couple of states have asked their local anglers to help them with how to stock their local waters.  Would they rather catch: 1) a few large fish, or 2) many small fish.  Each state’s end result was "a few large fish."  This is especially true with fly-fisherman.  Fly-fisherman go to the lodges for the pristine experience, education, and to catch "The Big One." The problem with bait-fishing is that it spoils the experience and fishing conditions for the fly-fisherman.  Live bait, like worms, can contaminate the water with diseases, like whirling disease, which kills or harms the fish.  Treble hooks used for Power Bait are often swallowed and can not be removed without harming the fish.  Bait- fisherman fishing in groups allow their poles to rest against something while they wait for a fish to take-the-bait as they talk, make jokes, drink, and generally pas the time.  This is not the experience most fly- fisherman want to see as they come around a bend in the river. In locations that I fish where bait-fishing is also allowed, I cringe every time I see things like this.  I move through the area as fast as I can until I get to another pristine location which will always be farther than their voice travels.  I often find litter and discarded fishing-gear in locations that bait-fishermen were.  This also destroys the experience for me and generally makes my blood boil. Because of fly-fisherman like me that spend money to keep private locations like this alive, they have normally restrict the fishing to fly-fishing with C&R restrictions. — Vern The new ROFF page: http://home.earthlink.net/~flyfishing4fun "Wilderness needs no defense, only more defenders"                             quote by Edward Abbey Before you buy.

Response:

There’s a place in Stanley, right next to a hotel, that is heavily stocked with "catchable" (i.e., barely legal size) trout. I sometimes go there to catch six fish for dinner, to experiment with techniques, or just to pass the time. The other day there were some kids fishing there (staying at the hotel, I believe). They were using those weird colored salmon eggs that come in jars, and they were catching absolutely nothing. When I started fishing with my fly rod this one boy of about 12 years was fascinated, and when I started catching fish he was transfixed. These fish are so easy it’s ridiculous. They’ll eat various nymphs like popcorn. After I caught my six trout and a couple of nice whitefish I let the kid fish with my rod, which was rigged with a bead-head pheasant tail and hare’s ear tandem and a foam indicator. Pretty soon he got the knack of chucking the rig out into the main current and mending the line to get a more-or-less dead drift. After pulling off a couple of fish with a too vigorous hook set, he caught two fish in about 10 minutes, and I think I made a flyfishing convert. I told him what to buy at the local tackle store so he could fish nymphs with his spinning rod. Geez, I wish I had a son who liked to fish. (Forget about, Warren — I mean a sub-teenage boy.) — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Question:

Phew. Good story. How about more of this? Who out there among us has ever written a story for publication, only to have it rejected by some pip-squeek assistant editor? Why not publish yourself on the web? right here? This beats the hell out of C&R pissing. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  */

Response:

Why not publish yourself on the web? right here?

What, and give away blood, sweat & tears FOR FREE ? My literary agent would have a coronary. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

‘There’s nothing like making a definitive stement on the net to provehow wrong you are’

Too true, too true!

Response:

Seemingly oblivious to the arcane machinations and unexplainable antics of a veritable host of erstwhile anglers, walkers, canoers, frustrated lovers, and usually inebriated potential suicides on the bridge above, the large and reputedly ancient trout lay just below the second brick foundation of the first bridge arch.  According to local folklore he weighed in excess of ten pounds, but he was apparently oblivious of his fame as well.   He rose occasionally and slurped a particularly inviting morsel from the calm lane at the side of the fast water caused by the water rushing through the narrows of the arch.

(remarkable story snipped) Allright, then, Mike, would it be true? Which part did you play? Mark Faulkner

Response:

(remarkable story snipped) Allright, then, Mike, would it be true? Which part did you play? Mark Faulkner

Perfectly true, I know, I was that trout ! TL MC

Response:

Damn bait fisherman!  We need more bartenders like that around all trout streams! Warren

Response:

Seemingly oblivious to the arcane machinations and unexplainable antics of a veritable host of erstwhile anglers, walkers, canoers, frustrated lovers, and usually inebriated potential suicides on the bridge above, the large and reputedly ancient trout lay just below the second brick foundation of the first bridge arch.  According to local folklore he weighed in excess of ten pounds, but he was apparently oblivious of his fame as well.   He rose occasionally and slurped a particularly inviting morsel from the calm lane at the side of the fast water caused by the water rushing through the narrows of the arch. If some of the local worthies were to be believed he had been doing this every summer for the last ten years. Experts and tyros, men of letters, small boys with worms,  although the water was fly only, and even lowly poachers,  had all attempted the difficult cast at one time or another over the years, some even successfully, the jaw of the fish was laced with white scars easily visible in the clear water, testimony to the "barbs and arrows of outrageous fortune" to which he had been subjected and which he now bore with seeming nonchalance, perhaps even truculent pride. A hard won but most excellent education.  In the "Stag

Question:

Wayne Knight Geneva IL You’re right Wayne but Walt grew up in Florida. Somewhere in the swamps I think.

mango infested islands loaded with big tusked hogs and big, slow moving turtles.  That’s why it takes him so long to do anything and is why women love him. ; ) —

Question:

I’m heading for Tahoe for a week at the end of September. I am a total beginner (one weekend class in Mass), and would love to hook up with a guide for a day somewhere in the area. I will have a car.  Any advice on guides, fishing outfitters, places I shouldn’t miss, etc.  would be very much appreciated. -Ruth

Response:

I’m heading for Tahoe for a week at the end of September. I am a total beginner (one weekend class in Mass), and would love to hook up with a guide for a day somewhere in the area. I will have a car.  Any advice on guides, fishing outfitters, places I shouldn’t miss, etc.  would be very much appreciated. -Ruth

The Truckee river is at the north end of lake Tahoe. I would call the Reno Fly shop for a guide. South of lake Tahoe is the east Carson river. You might call the Fly Fishing and Outdoor Store at South Tahoe for a guide. If you need more info you can call us at 800/4000FLY Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

I have just moved to Miami, FL and am interested in emptying my flybox of trout flies, and pursuing bone fish.  However, when I see the reports in the magazines of bone fishing on the flats (which look beautiful) it always looks as though a boat id required. Where can I bone fish without a boat in Dade/Broward/or Monroe counties? Do you know of any particluar good spots? Is summer a good time to spot bone fish? Thanks in advance! Mac

Response:

I have just moved to Miami, FL and am interested in emptying my flybox of trout flies, and pursuing bone fish.  However, when I see the reports in the magazines of bone fishing on the flats (which look beautiful) it always looks as though a boat id required. Where can I bone fish without a boat in Dade/Broward/or Monroe counties? Do you know of any particluar good spots? Is summer a good time to spot bone fish? Thanks in advance! Mac

Hi Mac, I think there are lots of bonefish in Biscane Bay and all down through the Keys. There are some books written about the area. One is buy Stu Apte. I would find some fishing shops and find out where you can wade. I think April/May/June is prime time and Sept/Oct/Nov. I would go once or twice with a good guide. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

I have just moved to Miami, FL and am interested in emptying my flybox of trout flies, and pursuing bone fish.  However, when I see the reports in the magazines of bone fishing on the flats (which look beautiful) it always looks as though a boat id required. Where can I bone fish without a boat in Dade/Broward/or Monroe counties? Do you know of any particluar good spots? Is summer a good time to spot bone fish? Thanks in advance! Mac

Miami area and fly fishes there on a regular basis. Richard should be able to help you out with everything you need to know.

Response:

Question:

I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

Response:

I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force?

If you don’t mind dealing with pre-mix, then a Force is a decent enough engine for "in shore" flyfishing. The Force engine line was an older Chrysler design which is now made by Mercury, so the dealer support should be as available as "true" Merc’s… If you’re looking for opinions, I’d look for an engine with VRO (variable rate oiler) so you can avoid the pre-mix and cut down on fouled plugs (a dead engine while snuggling up to cast to a breakwater can be *very* exciting ;^) but that does come with a higher price tag… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Response:

I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

Reply. I have a Force 1985, 85 hp. on my 16 foot bass boat. It works great and hasen’t cost much money. It doesn’t like to run for long periods at high speed, other than that, no problem. I understand Mercury has bought the company out and is supplying service ?????

Response:

I have a Force 1985, 85 hp. on my 16 foot bass boat. It works great and hasen’t cost much money. It doesn’t like to run for long periods at high speed, other than that, no problem. I understand Mercury has bought the company out and is supplying service ?????

Dennis: Using the standard premix ratio (I think it’s probably 50:1?) is probably insufficient for extended high-speed operation of that engine. I can’t say for certain if it’s mentioned in the operator’s manual (but it should be) that for that kind of use the oil should be increased (to 25:1 or so). Otherwise you’re likely to overheat the engine which might explain it’s reluctance to carry on for you at full-blast/long period operation… This is one of the niceties of a good VRO (not to mention that you don’t have to muck around with premix in the first place)… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

I would avoid Force like the plague.  Every year in Canada someones motor breaks down and it’s ALWAYS a Force.  Have yet to see one make it thru a hard week of fishing. Just what I’ve seen. Vince

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How about some interesting new discussion topics, or maybe some fish stories? I can’t go fishing ’cause it’s exam time, but surely someone else has something entertaining to say. Montana Bob, stuck in the computer lab again.

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How about some interesting new discussion topics, or maybe some fish stories? I can’t go fishing ’cause it’s exam time, but surely someone else has something entertaining to say.

OK, I’m hoping to go out South of Buena Vista, Colorado (Brown’s Canyon, a summertime whitewater rafting haven, but full of trout) to flyfish on the Arkansas this coming Christmas week, since I’ve got most of the week off, but I’m wondering if I’ll run into problems with hard water (water so hard you can’t get your fly through it). It’s been pretty chilly (more than normal at least) lately, hopefully things will warm up a little soon. Anyone fished the Arkansas in cold weather with any luck? Lots of bead-head princes, I presume, what other flies/nymphs/sizes would you recommend? — Cray Computer Corporation    http://www.craycos.com/~ferguson/ferguson.html Colorado Springs, CO                                     Solely my opinions

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