Question:

Gottcha!  I like putting you in a corner where you can’t excape.  :-)

One last time…  Got what?  I own the vehicles I desire.  I have a very nice 401k with 80% in money instruments and the balance in the stock market. In addition, I directly own shares in Exxon-Mobil and Schlumber. I will continue to keep my house at 72 in summer and 74 in winter.  I am convinced that the global warming Chicken Little crowd doesn’t have a clue. We will continue to use hydrocarbons until the market price creates an alternative. We are going to Red Rock Canyon in the giant SUV tomorrow.  There are no corners there. Have a great Yugo day. — Dave

Response:

Gottcha!  I like putting you in a corner where you can’t excape.  :-) One last time…  Got what?  I own the vehicles I desire.  I have a very nice 401k

What is referred to today as being a "201".  ;-) with 80% in money instruments and the balance in the stock market.

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration! In addition, I directly own shares in Exxon-Mobil and Schlumber.

Ah Ha!  There’s the interest in drilling ANWR? I will continue to keep my house at 72 in summer and 74 in winter.  I am convinced that the global warming Chicken Little crowd doesn’t have a clue. We will continue to use hydrocarbons until the market price creates an alternative.

It’s commin. We are going to Red Rock Canyon in the giant SUV tomorrow.  There are no corners there. Have a great Yugo day.

out of your mind when you’re toolin around) Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Dave

Response:

X-noarchive: yes In addition, I directly own shares in Exxon-Mobil and Schlumber.  Wow, that’s incredible: you actually *own* stock  shares in real companies ?  I am really impressed.  Did you buy them all by yourself, or did your mom  have to sign for them ?

If you are going to keep the troll going, you have to respond more quickly than four days later.  I had almost forgotten what you were slobbering about.  Yes, I saved my nickels until I could put on my Buster Browns and walk down to Charlie’s place and place the order all by myself. Thanks for the unintended compliment about my age.  You must have peeked!! — Dave

Response:

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration!

The stock market began it’s decline in March, 2000 while Clinton was still president.  Bush did not take office until January 20, 2001. — "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." — Ayn Rand Who is Rich McCormack?  Find out at… http://home.pacbell.net/macknet/

Response:

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration! The stock market began it’s decline in March, 2000 while Clinton was still president.  Bush did not take office until January 20, 2001.

And the decline has little to do with either one of them.  Economic cycles are very powerful and the Federal Reserve has MUCH more power than the president.

Response:

Sorry about your wippin in the stock market ever since the Bush administration! The stock market began it’s decline in March, 2000 while Clinton was still president.  Bush did not take office until January 20, 2001.

Oh, I’ll agree that the stock market and the economy as a whole was beginning a slow down but George has done absolutely nothing (other than the tax give-away to the rich) to stimulate this economy.  While George sits behind his desk plotting ways to avenge his mother and father’s attempted assignation by Saddam, the economy and your retirement egg nose dives.  What plans have you heard lately from George on getting this economy rolling? I’d like to hear his plans for our economy.  What were they again? Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." — Ayn Rand Who is Rich McCormack?  Find out at… http://home.pacbell.net/macknet/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, you’re just too simple to find the answer.  Fall behind your old cliche of personal energy consumption.  You’re a true Bushite. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet. If the shoe fits—–and with you, it does–hypocrite. Jerry Thanks for playing, but you have become rapidly boring.  If you continue to strike at the bait at least come at it from a different direction.

Gottcha!  I like putting you in a corner where you can’t excape.  :-) In the interim I will be driving my big Suburban, pulling my honkin’ huge boat out to Lake Meade to run aimlessly in circles. — Dave

Well good, I had fun too. Jerry

Response:

……pulling my honkin’ huge…… Dave Well good, I had fun too. Jerry

Well, uh, that’s nice…….um……ya’ll remember to wash your hands though, o.k.?    :( Wolfgang

Response:

Until your total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average Indian or Pakistani, you are a feel-good ‘caring’ Liberal.  Until *your* total personal energy consumption does not exceed that  of the average third world country, and American boys stop dying in  places like Kuwait for your "right" to burn as you see fit, your  benchmark standards for others are null and void.

Thanks for playing, but you lose.  I am not the one trying to set standards for ‘those people’ who don’t see the light.  Why do feel good enviro-wackjobs always want to pull the first world down to the level of the third world?  Your efforts should be directed in pulling the third world up to the standards of the first world. — Dave

Response:

Again, you’re just too simple to find the answer.  Fall behind your old cliche of personal energy consumption.  You’re a true Bushite. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet. If the shoe fits—–and with you, it does–hypocrite. Jerry

Thanks for playing, but you have become rapidly boring.  If you continue to strike at the bait at least come at it from a different direction. In the interim I will be driving my big Suburban, pulling my honkin’ huge boat out to Lake Meade to run aimlessly in circles. — Dave

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Until *your* total personal energy consumption does not exceed that  of the average third world country, and American boys stop dying in  places like Kuwait for your "right" to burn as you see fit, your  benchmark standards for others are null and void. Thanks for playing, but you lose.  I am not the one trying to set standards for ‘those people’ who don’t see the light.  Why do feel good enviro-wackjobs always want to pull the first world down to the level of the third world?  Your efforts should be directed in pulling the third world up to the standards of the first world.

Well, I for one have spent most of my life addressing one of the problems Greg mentions, with considerable success: far fewer American boys now risk death because the weapons we give them are more effective than any Vietnam era vet can imagine. Look how few American boys it took to topple the Taliban. So enjoy using all the energy you want with my best wishes. If we need a bigger share, we’ll simply eliminate some more competators!

Response:

Well, I for one have spent most of my life addressing one of the problems Greg mentions, with considerable success: far fewer American boys now risk death because the weapons we give them are more effective than any Vietnam era vet can imagine.

As a Vietnam area veteran I suspect that I could easily take offense at the notion that I (as well as a few million others) lack the imagination to deal why. Meanwhile, it occurred to me to wonder what use a doctor of divinity degree would be to weapons designer.  I was going to ask but, having just conjured my own doctorate in metaphysics and put it to good use, I now not only see the answer but also that it is entirely superfluous.  Given your astonishing educational achievements as well as your doubtless conservative estimate of your native intelligence, I am sure you will have no trouble seeing my point and that you can easily imagine the obvious implications and ramifications, particularly with regard to the rather knotty problem of your shoulders chafing against your buttocks. Look how few American boys it took to topple the Taliban.

Indeed.  And how many Americans appreciate the fact (or are even aware, for that matter) that the low casualties among the good guys were largely due to the fact that the Taliban fighters were stupefied by several weeks of being bombarded by Vito authored tracts translated into Farsi? So enjoy using all the energy you want with my best wishes.

Thank you.  In a near perfect world, all that was lacking was your blessing and that, it is now clear, has been remedied. If we need a bigger share, we’ll simply eliminate some more competators!

You are well on your way. Wolfgang inanity kills!      :(

Response:

Until *your* total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average third world country, and American boys stop dying in places like Kuwait for your "right" to burn as you see fit, your benchmark standards for others are null and void.

Egad!   I did not (honestly) think there were so MANY absolutely clueless – but nevertheless rabid – twits out there!   Another <plonk Will Sill KD3XR Spout bafflegab to infants, they giggle or cry Spout it on usenet, you get challenged.

Response:

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re belching the same mantra so many others like you do when it comes to environmental exploitation.  You call everyone who uses power for their computer or burns gas, even in their mini-automobile a hypocrite even though they are striving for an end to the blatant environmental abuses you see within the Bush administration.  I’ve heard it all before from ones like you who blindly support Bush in everything he does.  "Types" like you who skirt the issues and ignore environmental science and sell their souls at the expense of everyone else’s environment have gotten exactly what you were paid for—-and by that I mean by voting for Bush you "sold" your vote for a Bush tax cut while fully knowing that screwballs stance against the environment.   Go suck a tailpipe, hypocrite. Jerry Did we touch a raw nerve here?

Oh no, not at all.  I just call a spade a spade. I find it interesting you didn’t answer the question about ANWR or take the enviro-wacko challenge.  Users of non-renewable energy or products which produce HUGE amounts of toxins in manufacture (computers) and then complain about the current Administration truly are hypocrites.

I did answer the question.  You’re just too stupid to read through the lines.  Duh.  Try to read my statement again and see if you can come up with something. I don’t blindly support everything Bush does.  He and I are having a major disagreement at the moment.  That is neither here nor there. I don’t skirt the issues.  I don’t wear skirts.  I do read ALL the literature and listen to position papers by ALL the experts and form my own judgements. Until your total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average Indian or Pakistani, you are a feel-good ‘caring’ Liberal.

Again, you’re just too simple to find the answer.  Fall behind your old cliche of personal energy consumption.  You’re a true Bushite. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet.

If the shoe fits—–and with you, it does–hypocrite. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc. Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over. I’m all for gasoline, within reason.  But when it’s a situation of getting oil over everything else, even ANWR, it’s time to step back and take a long look.  And you think the reason for Bush’s gas obsession is for the "little man"?  Ha.  It’s called greed and big oil money, Dave.  Again, bend over and breathe deep.  How’s it feel to sell your soul for some gasoline? Jerry Ah Ha!  As long as you and those of your stripe get to define "within reason", right?  I’ve heard the mantra too long and have become too cynical. "More people" should use public transportation. "More people" should use natural fiber clothing. "More people" should buy gasoline efficient micro econo-boxes. "More people" should keep their homes at 60 degrees in the winter. "More people" should keep their homes at 85 degrees in the summer. Funny thing that.  The ones shouting the loudest show up in their private jets and black Suburbans to the Green Granola Earth First Save The Whale Kill a Child and Save a Tree rally. Somehow "More people" is always "Those people." Even ANWR?  Have you ever been to ANWR?  Do you even know where Kaktovic is? I’ve got a hot tip for you.  The coastal plain of ANWR is NOTHING like the touchy, feely pictures and videos that somehow always make it into the news. Hell, I’m all for $50/barrel crude oil in the United States.  I own stock in oil companies and still have grandchildren in Alaska.  High priced oil will just make their dividends increase. When you are living a 100% renewable life that includes cutting your own firewood, growing your own food and fiber and DEFINITELY not using high tech, energy consuming junk such as computers, get back to me.  Otherwise, you are being selective in describing "More people." — Dave

You’re belching the same mantra so many others like you do when it comes to environmental exploitation.  You call everyone who uses power for their computer or burns gas, even in their mini-automobile a hypocrite even though they are striving for an end to the blatant environmental abuses you see within the Bush administration.  I’ve heard it all before from ones like you who blindly support Bush in everything he does.  "Types" like you who skirt the issues and ignore environmental science and sell their souls at the expense of everyone else’s environment have gotten exactly what you were paid for—-and by that I mean by voting for Bush you "sold" your vote for a Bush tax cut while fully knowing that screwballs stance against the environment.   Go suck a tailpipe, hypocrite. Jerry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah Ha!  As long as you and those of your stripe get to define "within reason", right?  I’ve heard the mantra too long and have become too cynical. "More people" should use public transportation. "More people" should use natural fiber clothing. "More people" should buy gasoline efficient micro econo-boxes. "More people" should keep their homes at 60 degrees in the winter. "More people" should keep their homes at 85 degrees in the summer. Funny thing that.  The ones shouting the loudest show up in their private jets and black Suburbans to the Green Granola Earth First Save The Whale Kill a Child and Save a Tree rally. Somehow "More people" is always "Those people." Even ANWR?  Have you ever been to ANWR?  Do you even know where Kaktovic is? I’ve got a hot tip for you.  The coastal plain of ANWR is NOTHING like the touchy, feely pictures and videos that somehow always make it into the news. Hell, I’m all for $50/barrel crude oil in the United States.  I own stock in oil companies and still have grandchildren in Alaska.  High priced oil will just make their dividends increase. When you are living a 100% renewable life that includes cutting your own firewood, growing your own food and fiber and DEFINITELY not using high tech, energy consuming junk such as computers, get back to me. Otherwise, you are being selective in describing "More people." — Dave You’re belching the same mantra so many others like you do when it comes to environmental exploitation.  You call everyone who uses power for their computer or burns gas, even in their mini-automobile a hypocrite even though they are striving for an end to the blatant environmental abuses you see within the Bush administration.  I’ve heard it all before from ones like you who blindly support Bush in everything he does.  "Types" like you who skirt the issues and ignore environmental science and sell their souls at the expense of everyone else’s environment have gotten exactly what you were paid for—-and by that I mean by voting for Bush you "sold" your vote for a Bush tax cut while fully knowing that screwballs stance against the environment.   Go suck a tailpipe, hypocrite. Jerry

Did we touch a raw nerve here?  I find it interesting you didn’t answer the question about ANWR or take the enviro-wacko challenge.  Users of non-renewable energy or products which produce HUGE amounts of toxins in manufacture (computers) and then complain about the current Administration truly are hypocrites. I don’t blindly support everything Bush does.  He and I are having a major disagreement at the moment.  That is neither here nor there. I don’t skirt the issues.  I don’t wear skirts.  I do read ALL the literature and listen to position papers by ALL the experts and form my own judgements. Until your total personal energy consumption does not exceed that of the average Indian or Pakistani, you are a feel-good ‘caring’ Liberal. Sorry, but I defined you and your stripe as hypocrites first.  You’ll just have to chose another epithet. — Dave

Response:

how about suggestions for carrying lighweight lighting to the Cape??  think it could be used to attract speckled trout while fly fishing at night??

Response:

Whats wrong with a few underground bumps 1 mile deep asshole

Response:

This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is an outrage. the system is now broken for our public lands. The BLM, even after protest from the EPA and record setting comments, still claimed that the 5,000 explosions, 415 miles of seismic lines would have " no significant impact on the habitat" lol!!!! this is by far the most grotesque and rogue administration this country has ever seen. They are simply not following due proccess or the law. http://ens-news.com/ens/oct2002/2002-10-10-09.asp Bush Administration Sued Over Utah Energy Project SALT LAKE CITY, Utah, October 10, 2002 (ENS) – Three conservation groups have filed suit to halt the largest oil and gas exploration project ever approved in Utah. The Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (SUWA), the Wilderness Society and the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), represented by Earthjustice, sued the Bush administration over a project located south of Dinosaur National Monument, in a remote area known as the Book Cliffs. The project would encompass more than 3,000 square miles of public lands, including seven areas proposed for wilderness designation. The project would require 5,000 explosive detonations along 457 miles of seismic lines, and would take up to two years to complete. "We are seeing a repeated and senseless pattern in which the Administration is actually targeting for exploration the most fragile, important, and scenic lands," said Pam Eaton, regional director of the Wilderness Society’s Four Corners States Office. "There is a place for oil and gas development activities on public lands, but it’s absurd for BLM to simply ignore critical values such as wilderness and impacts to wildlife and vegetation." Just weeks after receiving a record breaking number of public comments – including critical comments from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) – the BLM found that the project would have "no significant impact on the environment," and declined to prepare a comprehensive environmental impact statement. Veritas DGC Inc., of Houston would conduct the work for its clients, oil companies that it has refused to identify. Veritas is one of the largest oil exploration companies in the world with more than $456 million in revenue in fiscal year 2002. It has operations in 19 countries on six continents. "We have never seen this extreme, single minded approach to oil development that the BLM is taking now," said Steve Bloch, SUWA staff attorney. "With orders from Washington to make oil drilling its ‘No. 1 priority,’ both Utah’s wildlife and magnificent redrock landscapes are being ruined forever for the chance to produce a few months of oil." The BLM granted its approval on October 4, and put the decision into "full force and effect." The agency also had pre-work meetings with Veritas that day. The BLM would not release its decision record to conservationists unless they made the day long trip to the BLM’s Vernal office, and then refused to release additional correspondence files, all of which are public documents. "The BLM’s actions here – including its disregard of the comments of thousands of concerned citizens and its refusal to share documents – make a mockery of Interior Secretary [Gale] Norton’s oft repeated commitment to ‘Consultation, Cooperation, and Communication in the service of Conservation.’ Here in southern Utah, their actions speak louder than words," said Johanna Wald of NRDC. The BLM disregarded comments by the EPA which noted that "the [environmental assessment] does not adequately characterize the direct and indirect effects to wildlife habitat and soils; the effects of [subsequent off-road vehicle use]; or disclose similar actions, cumulative effects and reasonably foreseeable development within or adjacent to the Project area." The agency also ignored over 25,000 public comments in opposition to the project. "This is another outrageous example of the Bush administration pushing through energy projects without considering their impacts on natural resources," said Susan Daggett, attorney for Earthjustice who is representing the coalition. "The public should have a voice in this process. Let’s not sacrifice the public’s interest at the alter of the Bush-Cheney energy plan." * * *

Response:

| Whats wrong with a few underground bumps 1 mile deep asshole It’s not the few underground bump (pump?) 1 mile deep but the collateral damage that the drilling process entails.  And before you start jumping on me for not knowing anything about the oil business I grew up in the oil patch.

Response:

This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry

You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over. — Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over.

I’m all for gasoline, within reason.  But when it’s a situation of getting oil over everything else, even ANWR, it’s time to step back and take a long look.  And you think the reason for Bush’s gas obsession is for the "little man"?  Ha.  It’s called greed and big oil money, Dave.  Again, bend over and breathe deep.  How’s it feel to sell your soul for some gasoline? Jerry

Response:

This is an outrage. the system is now broken for our public lands. The BLM, even after protest from the EPA and record setting comments, still claimed that the 5,000 explosions, 415 miles of seismic lines would have " no significant impact on the habitat" lol!!!! this is by far the most grotesque and rogue administration this country has ever seen. They are simply not following due proccess or the law. Anytime that bush can screw the EPA, I am for it.

Zeke, you’re a freak.  :-) Jerry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This means nothing to the Bush administration.  Bush does exactly what he wants with any resource whether it’s mining, salmon, etc., etc.  Power without discipline.  Power without knowledge.  Power to pay back his political contributors and it’s costing all of you.  You who voted for Bush, you’re getting exactly what you voted for.  Breathe deep and bend over. Jerry You bet I am!  I want cheap gasoline to run in my wife’s Suburban.  If you want to drive a Yugo, feel free.  By the way, I don’t have to bend over. The tailgate of my Chevrolet 1 ton pickup is tall enough to fill the boat gas tanks without bending over. I’m all for gasoline, within reason.  But when it’s a situation of getting oil over everything else, even ANWR, it’s time to step back and take a long look.  And you think the reason for Bush’s gas obsession is for the "little man"?  Ha.  It’s called greed and big oil money, Dave.  Again, bend over and breathe deep.  How’s it feel to sell your soul for some gasoline? Jerry

Ah Ha!  As long as you and those of your stripe get to define "within reason", right?  I’ve heard the mantra too long and have become too cynical. "More people" should use public transportation. "More people" should use natural fiber clothing. "More people" should buy gasoline efficient micro econo-boxes. "More people" should keep their homes at 60 degrees in the winter. "More people" should keep their homes at 85 degrees in the summer. Funny thing that.  The ones shouting the loudest show up in their private jets and black Suburbans to the Green Granola Earth First Save The Whale Kill a Child and Save a Tree rally. Somehow "More people" is always "Those people." Even ANWR?  Have you ever been to ANWR?  Do you even know where Kaktovic is? I’ve got a hot tip for you.  The coastal plain of ANWR is NOTHING like the touchy, feely pictures and videos that somehow always make it into the news. Hell, I’m all for $50/barrel crude oil in the United States.  I own stock in oil companies and still have grandchildren in Alaska.  High priced oil will just make their dividends increase. When you are living a 100% renewable life that includes cutting your own firewood, growing your own food and fiber and DEFINITELY not using high tech, energy consuming junk such as computers, get back to me.  Otherwise, you are being selective in describing "More people." — Dave

Response:

This is an outrage. the system is now broken for our public lands. The BLM, even after protest from the EPA and record setting comments, still claimed that the 5,000 explosions, 415 miles of seismic lines would have " no significant impact on the habitat" lol!!!! this is by far the most grotesque and rogue administration this country has ever seen. They are simply not following due proccess or the law. http://ens-news.com/ens/oct2002/2002-10-10-09.asp Bush Administration Sued Over Utah Energy Project SALT LAKE CITY, Utah, October 10, 2002 (ENS) – Three conservation groups have filed suit to halt the largest oil and gas exploration project ever approved in Utah. The Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (SUWA), the Wilderness Society and the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), represented by Earthjustice, sued the Bush administration over a project located south of Dinosaur National Monument, in a remote area known as the Book Cliffs. The project would encompass more than 3,000 square miles of public lands, including seven areas proposed for wilderness designation. The project would require 5,000 explosive detonations along 457 miles of seismic lines, and would take up to two years to complete. "We are seeing a repeated and senseless pattern in which the Administration is actually targeting for exploration the most fragile, important, and scenic lands," said Pam Eaton, regional director of the Wilderness Society’s Four Corners States Office. "There is a place for oil and gas development activities on public lands, but it’s absurd for BLM to simply ignore critical values such as wilderness and impacts to wildlife and vegetation." Just weeks after receiving a record breaking number of public comments – including critical comments from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) – the BLM found that the project would have "no significant impact on the environment," and declined to prepare a comprehensive environmental impact statement. Veritas DGC Inc., of Houston would conduct the work for its clients, oil companies that it has refused to identify. Veritas is one of the largest oil exploration companies in the world with more than $456 million in revenue in fiscal year 2002. It has operations in 19 countries on six continents. "We have never seen this extreme, single minded approach to oil development that the BLM is taking now," said Steve Bloch, SUWA staff attorney. "With orders from Washington to make oil drilling its ‘No. 1 priority,’ both Utah’s wildlife and magnificent redrock landscapes are being ruined forever for the chance to produce a few months of oil." The BLM granted its approval on October 4, and put the decision into "full force and effect." The agency also had pre-work meetings with Veritas that day. The BLM would not release its decision record to conservationists unless they made the day long trip to the BLM’s Vernal office, and then refused to release additional correspondence files, all of which are public documents. "The BLM’s actions here – including its disregard of the comments of thousands of concerned citizens and its refusal to share documents – make a mockery of Interior Secretary [Gale] Norton’s oft repeated commitment to ‘Consultation, Cooperation, and Communication in the service of Conservation.’ Here in southern Utah, their actions speak louder than words," said Johanna Wald of NRDC. The BLM disregarded comments by the EPA which noted that "the [environmental assessment] does not adequately characterize the direct and indirect effects to wildlife habitat and soils; the effects of [subsequent off-road vehicle use]; or disclose similar actions, cumulative effects and reasonably foreseeable development within or adjacent to the Project area." The agency also ignored over 25,000 public comments in opposition to the project. "This is another outrageous example of the Bush administration pushing through energy projects without considering their impacts on natural resources," said Susan Daggett, attorney for Earthjustice who is representing the coalition. "The public should have a voice in this process. Let’s not sacrifice the public’s interest at the alter of the Bush-Cheney energy plan." * * *

Response:

Question:

Can anyone help me.  I love biking and flyfishing in lakes in the South. It just seems natural that i should have a small one man fishing boat with pedals like a bicycle.  Ideally it would have gears much like a 3-speed, or 10-speed bike. Could a bicycle frame be adapted to  power a small boat?  If anyone knows of such a beast or kits/plans, etc. please let me know.  Thank you.

Response:

We have plans for pedal boats.  These date back to the 40’s and 50’s. I do not recall whether any of them have gearing like a 3 or 10 speed bike.  We charge $15 for copying and mailing.  Contact us if you are still interested. Good Luck and Fair Seas Marshall and Jo Duhaime,Jr. Classic Boatworks of Maine – We build and restore classic wood boats. http://www.nemaine.com/classicboatworks

Can anyone help me.  I love biking and flyfishing in lakes in the South. It just seems natural that i should have a small one man fishing boat with pedals like a bicycle.  Ideally it would have gears much like a 3-speed, or 10-speed bike. Could a bicycle frame be adapted to  power a small boat?  If anyone knows of such a beast or kits/plans, etc. please let me know.  Thank you.

Response:

We have plans for pedal boats.  These date back to the 40’s and 50’s. I do not recall whether any of them have gearing like a 3 or 10 speed bike.  We charge $15 for copying and mailing.  Contact us if you are still interested. Good Luck and Fair Seas Marshall and Jo Duhaime,Jr. Classic Boatworks of Maine – We build and restore classic wood boats. http://www.nemaine.com/classicboatworks

Can anyone help me.  I love biking and flyfishing in lakes in the South. It just seems natural that i should have a small one man fishing boat with pedals like a bicycle.  Ideally it would have gears much like a 3-speed, or 10-speed bike. Could a bicycle frame be adapted to  power a small boat?  If anyone knows of such a beast or kits/plans, etc. please let me know.  Thank you.

Response:

Question:

I will be making my first trip to Yosemite National Park at the end of the week and would be interested in hearing what specific recommendations people have for specific areas to flyfish for trout while I am there.  I do not have a float tube, so they would need to be lakes that are fly-fishable from the bank/wadable or  streams/creeks that are accessible for a daytrip/hike.  I am looking for areas, perhaps, where the fishing pressure hasn’t been excessive (if that exists) and someone of my beginner-intermediate skills would have a reasonable chance having fish take my fly.  Areas with plenty, albeit small trout are a-ok by me. I have tried to do some reading and one area I wondered about was the Dana Fork of the Tuolemne? Any thoughts or other rec’s? Thank you very much in advance.

Response:

Try Rafferty Creek in Tuolomne Meadows or go over 120 (Tioga Pass) and go to 395, then try the Owens drainage…large browns starting to spawn now! Larry #:)# www.sierraflyfish.com has some info (no affiliation)

Response:

Question:

Putting your children first does NOT mean you have to spend every second you your life with them. Your children as well as you will benefit if your mental health is good and your marriage is strong. Don’t feel guilty about taking care of those needs. Think of going away as part of a package of good family life that includes your needs and the children’s. You are just restoring your supplies of caring and patience for when they are needed. Please don’t fall into the trap of defining yourself only as "mommy the caregiver." you are also wife, friend, and person in your own right.

Response:

Hi…I am a stay at home mom of three.  I am very active with my three small children.  Their ages are 6,2, and 1.  I enjoy every minute with them, and never leave them with a sitter.  My husband and I take them everywhere with us.  On the weekends is his only time to spend quality time with them, so we hate to get a baby-sitter.  My problem is this though…this year, we have opted to go on vacation without them.  My husbands family is going to keep them.  My 6 year old is excited because he loves getting to go to his cousins, but my other two are too young to understand when I say I’m going on vacation.  We will be gone for 6 days.  Although I am excited to spend time with my husband, I feel guilty leaving them behind.  My daughter is the 2 year old and she is always right beside me.  I feel like she will be devestated with me gone.  I want to go, but should I feel guilty about going?  Many people tell me, including my pediatrician that a stay at home mom needs a break and that it is healthy, but why do I still feel like I’m doing something selfish?  I always put my kids first and this decision I’ve made to go without them this year has made me feel terrible.  Does anyone have any good words of advice for me?  Sounds corny, but I could use some about now.  I’ve got three weeks until my trip, and I want to enjoy it as much as possible.  I’m afraid I’ll worry about the younsters the whole time. Michelle……mommy of 3

Response:

Hey you deserve a vacation but I can see how you will miss your little brood. Read this idea for traveling parents.  Maybe you can do something like it to make it a little easier for you. In the article dad was traveling and mom helped her son make him little "gifts" one for each day that dad was away.  Dad would then call and talk about the gift.  The son was able to understand when the dad was coming back by which present he had opened.  Perhaps you could put together a few special treats and plan to call on the day that they are opened.  Or something like that.  Another idea would be to keep a journal or write a letter to your children while you are away.  This could be done while on the beach etc.  You’re going to be thinking of them anyway it always seems to help me when I write it down.  Then you can share them with them at a later date or keep them for yourself as a memory of your first vacation without them.  Keep remembering that they are probably going to have a blast so you try to do the same.  Hope all works out! Enjoy! -Jodi  mom of Kacie 7/24/98

Response:

Hi…I am a stay at home mom of three.  I am very active with my three small children.  Their ages are 6,2, and 1. I want to go, but should I feel guilty about going?

Unless you plan on homeschooling them and then raising them and their families in your home, you might want to consider this the first step at letting them see the "outside world".  It may help foster their independence.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby

Stoli! I agree with all the posters so far.  4 days is intolerable and 9 unthinkable. Most I’ve done is one night.

Response:

We contacted our local vet and the vet technician there does pet sitting. It was comforting to know that someone that worked at the vet hospital was also going to be checking on our cats every other day, if he noticed anything unusual, he would take them right to the vet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

   Hi,  When we go on holidays, we take the 2 cats to our vet, he has a kennel  and the cats are in a run and not in a cage.  They do not like it very much, but they are used to this twice a year.  We do make up to them when we get back! They are never any problems and  they are not mad at us, to happy to go outside again.  ob. — ****    Odette Brown ** I love Cats    ***** *** La Belle Province ** Quebec ** CANADA ***   http://www.igs.net/~rathey/odette1.htm

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

My personal limit for leaving my cats alone is two nights.  Otherwise I would fret and never enjoy a minute of my trip.  Many have suggested a pet sitter, this is a great idea.  That way you will have the peace of mind knowing that your Stoli and your house are being looked after. Boarding can be stressful for a cat, it depends on the cats personality.  My Isis would probably be fine at a boarding facility, but I know my shy little Hero would just freak out!  So far, if I’ve had to be away from home for longer than two overnights, I’ve been able to coax (coerce?) friends into looking in on them.  This too could be an option for you and would likely be cheaper than a pet sitter.  You can generally get away with giving the friend a small gift from your vacation, or taking them for dinner or something Good luck with Stoli, and I hope you enjoy your vacation (wish I could go on a vacation….sigh) Claire — My email address is spam-blocked! To reply, just remove the "nospam."    |_/|                                                      (. .)                                                  /_/     =*= (     "Cats are really far out little       ____/ , ,    / ^ //       animals."                         /~____  =^= /   (|| ||)      – Marvin Gaye                     (#_#_#_)___)_)    "" ""

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  There is nothing better (except staying at home) for your cat.  They stay in a familiar environment and there is someone trustworthy to check on them every day.  Leaving them for 4-5 days on their own is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen to them when unattended.  You could come home to a disaster.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

 I just couldn’t do it. What happens if Stoli becomes ill? four days, let alone nine days delay in getting vet treatment could be the difference between life, serious illness or death. I use a boarding cattery near where I live. The couple that run it are retired and *adore* cats. They treat the boarding cats as if they were their own. Every day, they not only clean all the runs, but spend time with the cats making a fuss of them etc.. They take contact telephone numbers in case of emergency, have vet details in case of illness, feed the cats *exactly* what they are fed at home etc., etc.. Regards, Helen S

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli!

Whenever we go out of town, we have a pet sitter come to our house. She comes in twice a day and feeds our cats, gives them fresh water, scoops the boxes, gives medicine to those that need it. We pay her for this service, but the cost is worth our peace of mind while we are gone. Try checking at pet food stores and with vets–they usually have bulletin boards with pet sitters who are in your area. Many are bonded and licensed, and good one will have references you can check. Many will also water plants, bring in the mail, turn on lights, etc. Good luck!

Response:

In the phone book, you should be able to find a pet sitter.  This is an awesome service that I use regularly when away.  A person comes in to look after your pets, water your plants, take in your mail, newspaper etc, and it’s wonderful.  Whatever service you choose, make sure you get references and credentials … Christin

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  It is GREAT!  Leaving a cat alone for 4-5 days is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen with no one to check on them.  What if they get sick?  Get into something they shouldn’t? What if they run out of food or knock over their water? Anyway, the pet sitter allows them to stay in their familiar environment with someone trustworthy to check on them.  It is well worth the money. They also take in mail, water plants, scoop litter, give medicine if necessary, feed and water.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby

Stoli! I agree with all the posters so far.  4 days is intolerable and 9 unthinkable. Most I’ve done is one night.

Response:

We contacted our local vet and the vet technician there does pet sitting. It was comforting to know that someone that worked at the vet hospital was also going to be checking on our cats every other day, if he noticed anything unusual, he would take them right to the vet. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

   Hi,  When we go on holidays, we take the 2 cats to our vet, he has a kennel  and the cats are in a run and not in a cage.  They do not like it very much, but they are used to this twice a year.  We do make up to them when we get back! They are never any problems and  they are not mad at us, to happy to go outside again.  ob. — ****    Odette Brown ** I love Cats    ***** *** La Belle Province ** Quebec ** CANADA ***   http://www.igs.net/~rathey/odette1.htm

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

My personal limit for leaving my cats alone is two nights.  Otherwise I would fret and never enjoy a minute of my trip.  Many have suggested a pet sitter, this is a great idea.  That way you will have the peace of mind knowing that your Stoli and your house are being looked after. Boarding can be stressful for a cat, it depends on the cats personality.  My Isis would probably be fine at a boarding facility, but I know my shy little Hero would just freak out!  So far, if I’ve had to be away from home for longer than two overnights, I’ve been able to coax (coerce?) friends into looking in on them.  This too could be an option for you and would likely be cheaper than a pet sitter.  You can generally get away with giving the friend a small gift from your vacation, or taking them for dinner or something Good luck with Stoli, and I hope you enjoy your vacation (wish I could go on a vacation….sigh) Claire — My email address is spam-blocked! To reply, just remove the "nospam."    |_/|                                                      (. .)                                                  /_/     =*= (     "Cats are really far out little       ____/ , ,    / ^ //       animals."                         /~____  =^= /   (|| ||)      – Marvin Gaye                     (#_#_#_)___)_)    "" ""

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  There is nothing better (except staying at home) for your cat.  They stay in a familiar environment and there is someone trustworthy to check on them every day.  Leaving them for 4-5 days on their own is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen to them when unattended.  You could come home to a disaster.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

 I just couldn’t do it. What happens if Stoli becomes ill? four days, let alone nine days delay in getting vet treatment could be the difference between life, serious illness or death. I use a boarding cattery near where I live. The couple that run it are retired and *adore* cats. They treat the boarding cats as if they were their own. Every day, they not only clean all the runs, but spend time with the cats making a fuss of them etc.. They take contact telephone numbers in case of emergency, have vet details in case of illness, feed the cats *exactly* what they are fed at home etc., etc.. Regards, Helen S

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli!

Whenever we go out of town, we have a pet sitter come to our house. She comes in twice a day and feeds our cats, gives them fresh water, scoops the boxes, gives medicine to those that need it. We pay her for this service, but the cost is worth our peace of mind while we are gone. Try checking at pet food stores and with vets–they usually have bulletin boards with pet sitters who are in your area. Many are bonded and licensed, and good one will have references you can check. Many will also water plants, bring in the mail, turn on lights, etc. Good luck!

Response:

In the phone book, you should be able to find a pet sitter.  This is an awesome service that I use regularly when away.  A person comes in to look after your pets, water your plants, take in your mail, newspaper etc, and it’s wonderful.  Whatever service you choose, make sure you get references and credentials … Christin

Response:

I, too, use a pet sitting service.  It is GREAT!  Leaving a cat alone for 4-5 days is not a good idea.  Too many things can happen with no one to check on them.  What if they get sick?  Get into something they shouldn’t? What if they run out of food or knock over their water? Anyway, the pet sitter allows them to stay in their familiar environment with someone trustworthy to check on them.  It is well worth the money. They also take in mail, water plants, scoop litter, give medicine if necessary, feed and water.

Response:

Help! We’re going on a trip and don’t know what to do with our baby Stoli! She’s about a year old and has never been out of our home.  We’ve left her alone for 4-5 days with no problem before (big clean litter boxes, plenty of food and water, etc.) and wonder if we can do it for 9-10 without any problems.  Hate the thought of a kennel, and no one can come over to take care of her.  Any ideas? Is there a rule of thumb for this kind of thing?? Thanks. -Patrick

Response:

We’re leaving for our vacation up north tomorrow.  I can’t wait!!  We’ll be spending most of our time out in the boat fishing.  And catching some rays.  I don’t want to spend all of my time in the bathroom. So hopefully my Lomotil will do the trick for me!  I got my doc to up the dose for me.  Thanks for the info Maryjo.  : )  I hope every one has a happy and healthy week like I’m hoping for!!  I can’t wait to get away!!!! Take Care, Sherry  ( who always says she the fishing pro in the family )  ; )

Response:

Sherry, Have fun!! and catch lots of fish.  ~~~~Pat Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Thanks I hope to.  I love it in northern Mn.  The lakes are great, just getting back to nature.  There’s nothing more beautiful than sitting in a boat watching an eagle fly over!!  I just have to go to work for a few hours and than wer’e off!  For a whole week….Nothing but sun and fun….I don’t have to worry about what my clients want…just sit in the boat fishing for hours…catching fish and catching some rays….I hope everyone has a happy and healthy week…Just like I am hoping for….  : ) Take Care, Sherry   ( I still say I’m the fishing pro in the family )   ; )

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Sherry- Enjoy your trip! Tracy

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Response:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! TELL ME!!!!!!! Rebecca Who wants to be invited to the wedding – I’m good for a gift (what can I say – I read too many romance novels)

Response:

There is no wedding but if you send a gift and we like it we may reconsider. — DAWN/Bonnie

Response:

Hummmm, the perfect gift for two IBDers – his and her bidets, silver plated toilet paper holder, crystal toilet plunger, monogrammed pill boxes, the possibilities are endless. Rebecca No wedding, no gift — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no wedding but if you send a gift and we like it we may reconsider. — DAWN/Bonnie

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Wow it is a small world.

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— DAWN/Bonnie

Response:

ALRIGHT – WAIT A MINUTE! What’s going on here???!!! Rebecca <BG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — DAWN/Bonnie

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I went to New Orleans and met a great friend from this news group. And I had a wonderful time.

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What a small world!  That is exactly what I did!  I had a wonderful time too.  We will have to compare pictures sometime. — DAWN/Bonnie

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I am going on vacation too for 6 days. Wouldn’t it be funny if we went to the same place. Darren, Didn’t see your message until today.  Where did you go? — DAWN/Bonnie

Response:

  I’m off to Alaska in a couple of hours.  I’ll be gone until after July 4th.  You guys all have fun without me.  Even bogeyman.   Just in case there’s anyone I’ve neglected to alienate so far, I have to pack and won’t be checking back in before I leave, so I won’t see any bon voyage messages.

Well, hell, Rumple-chen, I’m posting one anyway. Haven’t been alienated yet! Say hi to wonderful, big, beautiful, friendly Alaska, where men are men, and women are actually considered people! If they would only dump their corrupt senators and governor! What a falling-off is there, from the late, much-lamented Senator Ernest Gruening, who was one of only two courageous, principled members of Congress to vote against the Tonkin Bay Resolution — the Big Lie that ended up killing so many GIs and Vietnamese. Read about him at, inter alia: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/1332.html — Polar

Response:

   I’m off to Alaska in a couple of hours.  I’ll be gone until after July 4th.  You guys all have fun without me.  Even bogeyman.    Just in case there’s anyone I’ve neglected to alienate so far, I have to pack and won’t be checking back in before I leave, so I won’t see any bon voyage messages.

Response:

Question:

Hello Ken, This is something I’ve been doing quite a bit in the last couple of years. I’m certainly no expert, but here are a few thoughts.. For tackle I recommend a fairly stiff 8 weight rod with a Lamson reel.  You can get away with Pfleuger or a Scientific Angler but they’ll require more care and aren’t as smooth.  Use 20 lb. dacron backing.  Nothing your going to hook is going to run that far.  Even a big red usually stays within 100 yds of where he was hooked so you don’t need Bonefish gear. This rig will handle bass, redfish, speckled trout and the occasional flounder.  You’ll have to deal with wind.  Just the way it goes.  Try the Scientific Anglers Mastery series Wind Cheater line.  Helps a bit.  I also use a slow sinking line a lot and it’s a bit easier to cast into the wind.  I’d go with the Wind Cheater to start with.  Takes some of the edge off of being a beginner. The single most effective lure for me is a chartreuse/white Clouser minnow. Works on Reds and Specks under most circumstances.  Later you can go with some crab patterns for Reds and some Seaducers and Leftys Deceivers for Specks. Don’t discount Crazy Charlies either.. great under the lights for Specks. There are other patterns.. Roadkills, different shrimp imitations, but if you head out with half-a-dozen Clousers and a couple or lighter streamers, you’ll handle most of what you encounter. Is this what you wanted to know? Andy Schreckenghost Houston TX – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to fly fishing and in need of information for fishing in the coastal bend.  For instance reel and rod recommendations.  I hear that the wind is a consideration when fishing in the bay. I would appreciate any information. Thank you, Ken Clay

Response:

I am new to fly fishing and in need of information for fishing in the coastal bend.  For instance reel and rod recommendations.  I hear that the wind is a consideration when fishing in the bay. I would appreciate any information. Thank you, Ken Clay

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.

I agree, but I wasn’t talking about you.  :-) I went back and found out who it was, it was "Mr G", Here’s the excerpt: "The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.  " Now, do you believe that "the flow of [Tim's] persona" wins any moment of any thread?  He’s usually the first one in there swearing and cursing and spitting foul words. Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG)

None taken nor given. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words?     What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started     because Tim had to resort to swearing.             – Ken     —     Not speaking for anyone but myself       No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the   "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all   the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is   bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who   doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too   much drugs.  :-)

Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you. Pentium inside eh? -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

Response:

    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you.

If so, I’m wrong.  Please read what I first wrote (what I’ve left unsnipped above). I asked him for clarification about what he wrote. Note the question marks…I’ll stop now so that I don’t turn and begin to spit foul words.  :-) GRRR,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said.

I stand corrected.  I DID ask for a clarification, but then the thread wandered and I forgot the starting point.  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them.            - Ken

How about adopting the sensible policy of only replying to the threads that you _do_ "keep up on".  Failing that, how about warning readers when you are replying to an article you have not read or thought about… cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Tim I don’t see how it is possible to "moderate" the group except by general consensus, ie. if someone oversteps the mark then the group excludes them to the extent that they give up and go elsewhere. If someone feels strongly enough to post a "fuck off" then OK, as long as it isn’t gratuitous. If you are insistent on creating a FAQ, (I don’t really consider it necessary, personally), then keep it to "frequently asked questions", why try and have rules that are unenforceable? General consensus will suffice. Personally, I still have reservations about Mr. Winters’ continued involvement with the group, time will tell if I am on my own on this one but, in my opinion, some valuable members have left as a result of his continued presence and this irks me. Maybe a few less Brits would suit some members of the group? Your apparent new found "sycophancy" worries me almost as much as the original "misdemeanours"! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded)

Even more fundamental question, who decides what is "un-gentlemenly"? There are many ways to be vulgar and offensive without swearing. Is it okay to say: "F*ck off" "BS" "Bite me" "Bite my rod" I have not used an "offensive" word in the list above, the meaning is still there. If we say that none of these is acceptable, who is going to enforce it.  You say you will leave if this group becomes moderated, but short of moderation this decision is unenforceable. Let me try to put this in terms you will understand since I hear that you are a programmer.  You have coding style requirements. With the requirements alone, nothing changes, with moderate enforcement you get some change, but mostly only after the enforcement has happened upon your unfortunate soul, or you have heavy enforcement where if you don’t code properly your code doesn’t compile and won’t work until you fix the error. If you want "posting" standards the same will occur.  Write down a list of rules and don’t enforce and it means nothing. Enforce heavily and it will work, but you will have a moderator sitting there saying yah or nay to every post. Is this what you want?  I’m not in favor of moderation, but this is an academic exercise if you think writing down rules will change anything. or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected)

This is status quo. I think the only way to "change" things is through individual policing. Think about how you personally are responding and whether or not you want to be seen the way your post makes you look.  There will always be abusive people on usenet, it’s your decision about how to respond to them.  For example, if someone, oh let’s see, calls someone a "fucking moron" you can respond in kind and get in a name-calling contest or ignore the post, or just snip out the line and continue with a semi-constructive argument.  It may not change the abusive poster, but at least things won’t turn into a complete brawl and you won’t be acting like a 2nd grader. I don’t know if this helped or not, but at least it made me feel slightly better (CRAPPY weekend). Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Umm…. ..are we gonna forget the charter and FAQ whilst everyone keeps pissing and moaning about Mr. G and what Tim REALLY meant and the rest of this Blah, Blah? I thought the "group" was serious about trying to get on track? Why don’t the limited number of you that want to continue griping about all the side issues find a chatroom to meet in and hammer this out between yourselves???

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Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… ROFF Charter  Purpose of NG  Goals of NG  Rules for posting to NG  Profanity  Selling  Attachments  When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s  Equipment  Rods and Reels  Float Devices  Nets  Vests  Lines  Leaders  Accessories  Clothing  Rain Gear  Hats  Waders/Boots  Guides  Tipping  Personal Experience Stories  Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs  Regular Frequent Posters  Known Commercial Posters  Known Frequently Medicated Posters

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<nice post "Any fish bite if you got good bait… I’m a going fishin’ too".<g — Charlie…

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Nice to see you back.  I still do not agree with most of what you say though. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<MERCILESS CHOP    The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track <MERCILESS CHOP   Hey, isn’t that what the investigator joker said too?  Anyway, I   can’t imagine what the hell this "back on track" acually means.  It   always was a bunch of us jackass fishers talking amongst ourselves about   whaterver we please and it always will be.   My observations of these groups (since their conception) is that for   every person who takes them (too) seriously, there are a thousand (and   climbing daily) who don’t.  If anyone wants to get with a group of   folks that are all as serious as they are should get into a   listserv – I’ll be happy to explain via email what this means.   FAQ’s for these groups are a great concept, but a waste of time.   99.44% of the time the only people aware of the FAQ are people who   don’t need it – and FAQ’s certainly don’t squelch the repetitive   discussions. cheers,   -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Q:  What’s the difference between Tim Walker’s head and a buttplug? A:  The buttplug comes out once in a while. Sorry, just had to complete the symmetry. I’ll help out on the FAQ, but someone, really anyone, has to set out a real and complete first draft of a Table of Contents.  It won’t be the final one and it won’t be right, but it will give a starting point.  I could suggest a list of 10 or so names for this job, but you guys probably know who you are.  Any volunteers?  We can’t really start without it. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ?

No offense, and with all due respect, it’s you. Swearing at people who don’t agree with you, calling people names when they don’t agree with you, doing whatever pleases you to someone who doesn’t agree with you is what makes this newsgroup so violent. If you REALLY are trying to turn over a new leaf then I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, but if you think that simply making a FAQ is going to change anything by itself you are far too optimistic. So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson.

Hey, give credit where credit is due, it was my pool.  :-) Although NOBODY was guessing this soon, you usually wait at least a couple of weeks. The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future.

<honest question Maybe you can define what a "better" ROFF looks like. – No political rants? – No ethical rants? – No swearing? – No name-calling? Unless you do some or all of those, what will change? </honest question Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ?

Sure, I’ll be happy to start over, again it’s mostly up to you though.  Your first swearing rant over someone C&R-ing a fish and we’ll be right back where we started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization..

The general info part of a FAQ is certainly a good idea.  I question the ability of a FAQ to regulate etiquette or to make a difference in the "endless threads".  The problem is that veterans already know the info and those who need the info rarely read FAQs. I would be willing to help with a general info section, but the other sections are basically futile in the chaotic USENet. Tell you what, if you can get an agreement on what a "better" ROFF looks like I’ll reconsider. I think you are underestimating the variety of viewpoints people have here. Good Luck,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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_____ Well Tim, I know nothing about this person Max that is supposed to be a rascal, but your arguments are of a reasonable man.  Of course, personally, I like most of the men in this group.  The only reason why there aren’t more ladies involved here is because . . . and then it ceases to be interesting regarding "attention spans and talking fishing?" Not important issue right now.  But I accept your reasoning. My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

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<lot of good stuff snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW

tim…you ‘da man…. ;^) btw…"SECRET" flies in the mail come tuesday, just finished tying another batch of ‘em. -walt

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tim…you ‘da man…. ;^)

Yeah! — Bill

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ROFF Charter         Purpose of NG         Goals of NG         Rules for posting to NG                 Profanity                 Selling                 Attachments                 When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s         Equipment                 Rods and Reels                 Float Devices                 Nets                 Vests                 Lines                 Leaders                 Accessories         Clothing                 Rain Gear                 Hats                 Waders/Boots         Guides                 Tipping                 Personal Experience Stories         Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs         Regular Frequent Posters         Known Commercial Posters         Known Frequently Medicated Posters

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Good start!  I’ve added a suggestion or two below.

: ROFF Charter :       Purpose of NG :       Goals of NG :       Rules for posting to NG :               Profanity :               Selling :               Attachments :               When to respond to Writer rather than Group : FAQ’s :       Equipment :               Rods and Reels :               Float Devices :               Nets :               Vests :               Lines :               Leaders :               Accessories :       Clothing :               Rain Gear :               Hats :               Waders/Boots :       Guides :               Tipping :               Personal Experience Stories :       Tying (see ROFFT)         General                Why are they picking on Orvis?                What do they have against Jeep Grand Cherokees?                Who is Brian Keith? : PERSONAL BIOs :       Regular Frequent Posters :       Known Commercial Posters :       Known Frequently Medicated Posters :       — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire. Lighten up….. –Walt

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I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire.

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Lighten up…..

Nah, I’m always too light, maybe if I called someone an imbecilic dweeb I could get in on the really good fights.  :-) Later,      - Ken P.S.  No hard feelings, I noted the smiley and please note mine in return. — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-)

Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.  I’ve no doubt some of Tim’s comments in the future will be succinct, curt, bombastic, witty, even vitriolic, but always well founded on solid principle. Can you match up to such a guy in eloquence and character? Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG) Regards, — Bill

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I am disturbed by these recent events. Restless.  Sleepless.  Bothered. What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ? IMHO – Max Whittington is, I am certain (now more than ever) a good man who made an honest mistake.  Lord knows, I have.   Moreover he made a mistake about something he is passionate about.  Lord knows, I have done that too.  Have you ? I have read carefully every post has made here and I see something different than what has been revealed by these events. First off he is helpful to the beginner.  Cordial and a gentleman.  Sincere.  He is also a hell of an investigator <g, this might be useful when the REAL loons come around <g. We can not all get mad and quit when something bad happens and I am not setting any example.  I am very sorry for that.  If we all acted like this…then there were none. —- Like the constant upstream migration of an emerging insect, with all of the odds against it, we *must* press upstream and solve this problem…. —- So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson. I can not leave the group like this.  It sucks.  It’s mean spirited and hurting.  And it is only Qayaniskatsi – Life out of balance. I do not sense mean hearts among us, anywhere, do you ? —- I have 2 serious issues.  Please bear with me The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future. —- First off…everyone…please go to www.dejanews.com and read the stuff Max posts.  He’s a good Joe, IMO (not that MY opinion is worth a ratty waterlogged adams). It is true that I felt violated by the background check and the email to my employer, but he woke my eyes up in a huge way. It may NOT be safe to have an unchecked opinion in cyberspace.  You too might want to consider this.  I am hoping to find out just what in the world is out there easily for people to find and I intend to ask Max to help me. Friends… You take the bad with the good, but you look for the good… …and I see a hell of a lot of it in that man. I challenge you to read *all* of his posts and not agree. I know (feel) that something positive is coming out of this and in the end I predict that not only will Max be a good friend to a lot of us, but that ROFF will be better, stronger and more organized place to deal with the hectic, eclectic and sometimes strange internet demands placed upon it. — Let’s use this as an opportunity to grow.  Individually, collectively… — That was my first serious issue and I am serious. Can we forgive and forget by remembering [who we are]…Royal Order of the Brothers of the Bugchuckers… Number two will just be ‘#2′  <g if we can not. Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ? Part 2. RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly Request for Discussion… We need a new FAQ for ROFF.  It is high time.   I believe that none of this would have happened if we had one and will take at some of the heat if for this alone. I’ve been around long enough that it’s at least partly my laziness that we don’t have the damned thing done yet ! John Ferriera, where are you ? Consider this…. The C&R thread has been active for at least 7-8 years ?  It has started/ended/mutated so many times that it’s *amazing*.  This can *only* speak to its relevence of it as a valid subject in our sport, or at least to a buncha people here as it relates to our sport (I am in this group that feels that it needs discussing). That, however, is *not* the point (only an example)…please view it only as such. The point is, is that it is maddening to have to justify its (the threads) existence over and over and over, like some of us have had to.  Why should I feel guilty discussing C&R ad infinitum around here ?  (or cussing or swearing…).  We have been around and around on this and I have a solid proposal. To use Max’s example: Assume that this is a club, only its like no other club in the world.  We have no limitations on membership. No education requirements or dress code.  We have no choice in the matter, really, unless we moderate the group, because this group exists in the Universe of the internet we must treat it as a subset of this Universe.   If the group becomes moderated, well…that’s fine…but then please point me to the unmoderated one. The FAQ *WILL* give credence to and justify these ongoing threads so that they will not be the targets of trivialization or condemnation.  Moreover the FAQ will set the rules of fair play in ROFF that we will all have to agree to, or move on. Certain things will be covered in the FAQ, such as "Opinions on Floatants". Hopefully, this will grow with relevent information and all of the info, such as Albolene, secret formulas and the history of George Gehrke and his product on can get thoroughly and objectively covered there once. Instead of saying "This group sucks…can we change it ?", We could say…"Uh…this part of the FAQ sucks, can we change it …?". Thus I propose a *MEMBER DETERMINED* FAQ having a "table of contents" something like: "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization.. IOW – Shouldn’t we get our collective shit together a little ? Vroman hates me for a very similar misunderstanding…we simply don’t agree on what ROFF is, but how can either of us be right if NOBODY knows what ROFF is ? By end of summer…let’s say…we all agree on what ROFF is…DEAL ? It’s something to consider…. Max, I hope you’re still with us ? Comments ? Peace. No hard feelings…. I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW What is ROFF ?

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Question:

I am looking for a graden hoe that is shaped like a diamond and the diamond part sits on the ground and you just push and pull it along the ground to get rid of the weeds . I think its called a Japanese weeding hoe.

Response:

I am looking for a graden hoe that is shaped like a diamond and the diamond part sits on the ground and you just push and pull it along the ground to get rid of the weeds . I think its called a Japanese weeding hoe.

  There’s a similar (and I think better) product knows as a swoe whose head looks a bit like a flattened golf club.  It was originally marketed (25 years ago) by Wilkinson Sword in an elegant one piece stainless steel version that I still have, but I havn’t seen that form in over a decade. A few years back I bought a friend a heavier and less elegant version from one of the mail order catalogs.  It’s meant to slide back and forth under the soil like what you describe, but the one sided design is less likely to lop off the wrong plant. — Lloyd Fortney http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney/ has links to my garden, flower, flyfishing, and travel JPEG images as well as teaching, research, and stuff like that

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Question:

On the stream: * What is your normal procedure once you hit the stream? * How long does it take you to get a fly on the water? (ignoring the amount   of time you take to study the water) Leaders: * Do you usually store a leader on your reel with the line? * With knotless leaders, is the the tippet considered part of the leader?   (I presume that it is but have never seen it stated.) * If so, (or with finished knotted leaders) how many flies will you   change (how many inches of tippet clipped) before you add more tippet? Casting: * When is the "proper" time to let line out when false casting (to extend   the line to the distance you wish to cast to)?  I do it instinctively now   but none of the books I’ve read, nor the few videos I’ve watched, have   brought up the subject at all.   _Rich_

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Good questions. I generally hike into the stream wiht my rod assebeled but not strung. Streamside, this forces me to go slow and take some time to watch the water.  My rod/reel choice is often dictated by the wind conditions. Once, I determine what fly to fish, I’ll string the rod, replace the tippet (I use Braided Leaders), tie on a start.  My braided leaders generally stay on the reel. The process takes about 10 minutes if I go slowly enough. My tippets for dry fly action is generally 5x 30" to 36" long, 24" of 5x for wets,  and 18" of 4 or 3x for streamers.  I get good turnover with these legnths on Orvis braided 5x or 6x leaders of 9 or 12 ft. I’ll fish a tippet down to about half of the original legnth if I can get the drift I need. What’s proper is probably what works.  I feed line for an initial cast on both the backcast and forward false casts, hopefully leaving enough line to shoot if I’m fishing more than 40 feet away. I’m looking forward to other responses. jg

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On the stream: * What is your normal procedure once you hit the stream? * How long does it take you to get a fly on the water? (ignoring the amount   of time you take to study the water)

My procedure depends somewhat on the type of water.  For Spring Creeks / Mountain Streams (my favorite) I will string up at the car and then take my time hiking to the stream when I am within 50 yards or so.  As a rule I try never to step in the water if at all possible and move as silently in the shadows as possible.  Wild Trout require this stealth.  If there are few trees or other cover, then I will crawl.  Once at the water, I almost always look for opportunities before casting.  Exceptions would be when I know that I will be fishing blind with nymphs/streamers or when the water is extremely off color. Leaders: * Do you usually store a leader on your reel with the line?  

I generally roll the leader/tippet right around the reel in as large a loop as possible.  I’ve tried leader wallets, etc.  and I think they’re too much hassle.  I tend to hit at least a bass impoundment 3 to 4 times per week and like to whip out the old 7 wt quickly and not have to unravel my leader.  Also, if you’re fishing for bass/saltwater species etc., then you’ll be using 2x-0x leaders/tippet and it takes punishment really well.  Smaller leader requires more care.  I do cover up to protect from sunlight with a neoprene cover. * With knotless leaders, is the the tippet considered part of the leader?  Yes.  The latter 2 ft or so is the tippet. * If so, (or with finished knotted leaders) how many flies will you   change (how many inches of tippet clipped) before you add more tippet?

I will add more tippet material after about 18 in (of 24 in) is used up.  This is really loose though.  If the quarry is not leader shy…then I’ll wait longer.  If you wait too long to add the proper tippet, however, then you won’t match up well with the leader material and the fly won’t turn over smoothly.   Casting: * When is the "proper" time to let line out when false casting (to extend   the line to the distance you wish to cast to)?  I do it instinctively now   but none of the books I’ve read, nor the few videos I’ve watched, have   brought up the subject at all.

If false casting is REALLY required then get the line out any way you feel comfortable with.  Forward or backward both is my preference, but I prefer shooting forward. K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

Hi Sandy, Great idea and post on the Skinny Minny. I’m going to give them a try after Christmas. There is usually some kind of thaw for a few day in mid January in Montana and I’m going to be prepared. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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[ skinnies 4K ]

             –Skinny Minnies and Rapalicas– WARNING:   The following discussion may prove hazardous to your sensibilities. If you like precise definitions and are uncomfortable with gray area, abort now and read no further. Else continue.   Hot damn. I’ve been working on this for over ten years, and now I finally have it: homemade, lightweight wigglers that are quick and easy to make. I wrote about this once, or, should I say John Gierach did, about 10 years ago in fly fisherman, in an article called "Flies or Lures," where my work was reviewed along with the work of several others (A K Best?) I had some wigglers that worked then, but they were way too heavy, and took way too long to make. I posted some interim, ‘almost works’ instructions to rec.outdoors.fishing a few years ago, and immediately started a flame war about what is and isn’t fly fishing. Several readers thought the very idea of fly rod wigglers was inherently reprehensible. One reader referred to them derisively as "Skinny Minnies." I thought it was a pretty good name. I’ll have to see if I can get something published under that name. For me, wigglers have been the hardest challenge in fly tying. I have been making them for years, but I never knew–until recently–which ones would work and which ones wouldn’t. Dave Whitlock once described the balancing of homemade wigglers as "Impossibly difficult." But it ain’t so: once you’ve got it, it’s easy. BACKGROUND:   First of all–just in case there is any doubt in your mind–wigglers are absolutely deadly. Tiny, 3/8" long wigglers are absolutely dynamite on the spring creeks. In bigger water, fat, long-bodied wigglers thrown into the i pockets behind overhanging willow branches pull out big browns like a magnet. MATERIALS:    Thin super glue.    5-minute epoxy    Spawn sack—dyed brown or black if you are a perfectionist    Clear mylar sheeting (get it at the drafting supplies store, ala                          Bett’s frog lip)    any standard hook…with hook size vaguely dependant on body length.    optional: any number of rubber leg, marabou, saddle hackle additions              that can be added, as-per-your imagination. TYING (assembly) INSTRUCTIONS:    ….say for a big one…    Cut a 1/4" x 1/4" x 2" square tube of closed cell foam. Use scissors to taper off the rear end. Use a razor blade to cut a 60 degree slanted front face in the foam. Slit what will eventually be the belly of the fly (lure?) and push in a flattened split shot, along with a dab of epoxy. This "belly-mounted" ballast is critical. This (belly ballast) was the missing part of the puzzle, for me. With a bouyant tail, a little ballast in the belly and slightly weighted bill, they all orient downwards, and dive and wiggle like crazy when you pull on the line.     Roll the foam body up like a cigarette (perhaps you learned how to do this i back in the late 1960’s)–in a rectangle of spawn sack. Twist up the loose spawn sack at the rear end, and glue the tight knot at the rear end with a spot of thin super glue. Clip off the excesss spawn sack. Twist the spawn sack flat over the slanted front end of the foam body. Use a small amount of thin super glue to pin the spawn sack flat against the slanted front end of the foam.   Cut a rectangle of rigid, clear mylar sheeting for the diving lip. Rough it up with sand paper. Glue the front end of the slanted foam body onto the diving lip with epoxy. Set it aside to dry.    Once the epoxy has hardened, use scissors to trim back the mylar sheeting into a Rapala-like diving lip. Glue an additional, flattened split shot on the lower edge of the bill.    At this point, you can add do-dads. Sew in rubber legs, flashabou, saddle hackles, beady eyes….whatever you want. What you have, at this point, is a soft-bodied lure that dives and wiggles like a daemon, and yet is no heavier than many commercially tied streamer flies. You can toss them easily with a fly rod. HOW TO FISH THE FLURE:   Use a bodkin needle to poke a hole through the bill. Push the tippet through the hole. Throw a half hitch around the body of the lure. Use a needle to push the tippet through the foam at its rear end. Tie on any hook you like. Fish it upstream and across, like a streamer. You may have to use toenail clippers to "fine tune" the action of the lure. Then try fishing it it downstream, swimming it back and forth at the top of likely looking pockets. Pay attention and be ready to set the hook. You’ll get plenty of strikes. You’ll find more big fish than you ever imagined. I fished some of these last summer on the Big Horn, and the results were nearly indescribable. The only flaw at that point, was that only about 1 in 4 flies I made worked (wiggled) right. Now they all do. It’s all in the belly ballast.

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Question:

I have a difficult decision to make, though it is one I wish I had to make more often… Two friends of mine are visiting me in Colorado in mid-September and we’re planning on four days of fishing. All of us have been angling for many years, and on this trip we don’t want to shit around. We’ve been throwing around ideas on a destination and have narrowed it down to either the San Juan in NM or the Green in UT. The final decision has been left to me and I need help from anglers who know these waters. Which one is preferable in September? Any advice on guides, camping/lodging, patterns, etc would be greatly appreciated. E-mail is fine; please include any phone numbers you might have. Thanks in advance, Spinoleo

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a difficult decision to make, though it is one I wish I had to make more often… Two friends of mine are visiting me in Colorado in mid-September and we’re planning on four days of fishing. All of us have been angling for many years, and on this trip we don’t want to shit around. We’ve been throwing around ideas on a destination and have narrowed it down to either the San Juan in NM or the Green in UT. The final decision has been left to me and I need help from anglers who know these waters. Which one is preferable in September? Any advice on guides, camping/lodging, patterns, etc would be greatly appreciated. E-mail is fine; please include any phone numbers you might have. Thanks in advance, Spinoleo

I’ve just returned from a week on the San Juan.  Absolutely incredible. Don’t miss a chance to fish here.  There is abundant water and HUGE fish.  Although some spots do attract a large number of fisherman, I was able to find quiet waters without too much difficulty. Be prepared to fish extremely small flies, both emerger and dry, to extremely large fish.  One day I had to go down to a #26 midge.  Baetis were a bit slow by San Juan standards, but still abundant.  PMD were present, but seemed to be ignored by fish for the most part. As for guides, the people at Santa Fe Flyfishing School ((505) 986-3913) are great.  I believe they only offer wading trips, which in my mind is a great way to see and fish the San Juan. Accomodations can be had at any number of places on or close to the river.  My preference is the Enchanted Hideaway ((505) 632-2634).  Condo style lodging, convenient, and not cramped. Good luck. David

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The Green is an exceptional fishery. Sometimes tiny flies are the norm, but in Sept. hoppers and crickets kill them in the backwater eddies. And the crowds start to thin out after Labor Day. And though I have never fished the San Juan, I heard that access without a boat is limited as opposed to the Green where you can walk and wade the entire river with no problem. And there is ample camping space and a great store in Dutch John that has all the information and flies you could ever need. The Green is my favorite river, bar none.

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  And though I have never fished the San Juan, I heard that access without a boat is limited as opposed to the Green where you can walk and

The water just below the damn on the San Juan is easy access. At least the first few miles. Not necessarily easy to wade which depends on the water flow.

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