Question:

WOW….somebody’s going to write in my name….. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Who do you trust?  What are you people arguing about?  Both Bush and Gore are four letter words and you’re going to get it no matter which you vote for. Clinton machine is dead in the water as is Gore who was every bit as much a liar as Bill is.  Difference is, during times of war they executed traitors didn’t they?  Gore was just as much responsible for selling America out to China as anyone.  Basically, if elected by the ignorant, the same crew will run this country from in the basement as before.  Yes, a few cosmetic changes but nothing you will ever notice. Gore will get more of your guns and freedoms to bear arms will be weakened ever more. Bush will get more of your last remaining forests, not that anyone here can do anything about it.  All of you can kiss Alaska Oil Reserves good bye for this state will have it’s heart ripped out for its oil. Basically, all of you are going to be Gored or Bushed.  You deserve what you get.  To stop this kind of idiocy, you need to abolish the Federal Reserve.  Have Congress buy them out.  They’re just a private investment company anyhow, raping America for money. Let’s all face it.  They’re BOTH lousy choices.  Vote for a change, at least.  Vote for the man that will leave your gun ownership alone and we know who that is because your guns are the ultimate remaining power that controls the government, one would think. Awe, nuts!  Back to fly fishing the muddy rivers due to clearcutting. — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Who do you trust?  What are you people arguing about?  Both Bush and Gore are four letter words and you’re going to get it no matter which you vote for. Clinton machine is dead in the water as is Gore who was every bit as much a liar as Bill is.  Difference is, during times of war they executed traitors didn’t they?  Gore was just as much responsible for selling America out to China as anyone.  Basically, if elected by the ignorant, the same crew will run this country from in the basement as before.  Yes, a few cosmetic changes but nothing you will ever notice. Gore will get more of your guns and freedoms to bear arms will be weakened ever more. Bush will get more of your last remaining forests, not that anyone here can do anything about it.  All of you can kiss Alaska Oil Reserves good bye for this state will have it’s heart ripped out for its oil. Basically, all of you are going to be Gored or Bushed.  You deserve what you get.  To stop this kind of idiocy, you need to abolish the Federal Reserve.  Have Congress buy them out.  They’re just a private investment company anyhow, raping America for money. Let’s all face it.  They’re BOTH lousy choices.  Vote for a change, at least.  Vote for the man that will leave your gun ownership alone and we know who that is because your guns are the ultimate remaining power that controls the government, one would think. Awe, nuts!  Back to fly fishing the muddy rivers due to clearcutting.   — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Question:

Would anyone like to give a history of Roff. When it started,who are the longest posters Etc.

Response:

I and several others helped kick off alt.fishing in the late 1980’s, and the Associated Press and several well known magazines interviewed us and ran articles on the new forum for fishers. Until the early 1990’s, I posted stats on who the top posters were per year.  Readership was about 20,000-40,000 in the early years Several years later, Brian Dixon (then in Colorado, ironically now working for HP a few buildings away from me) successfully led an effort to get the rec.outdoors.fishing.* hierarchy started. Certainly many of us older posters don’t post as much due to other activities. I remain very impressed with the quality and value of the fishing forums, and thank many of you for keeping things going. Thomas Gilg – President, Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers, Corvallis Oregon – VP Conservation, Oregon Council of the Federation of Fly Fishers – Oregon [Fish] Restoration and Enhancement Board, Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife    (i.e. I and 6 others get to decide how to spend the several-dollar surcharge on every    angling license sold in Oregon to improve fisheries and fishing opportunities) – lots of other fishing conservation and education stuff

Response:

Would anyone like to give a history of Roff. When it started,who are the longest posters Etc.

I’m not sure who started ROFF or how long ago it was, but I’ll bet HWMNBN was the one who introduced him to USENET as they developed new fly patterns in a foxhole in the Korean War. –Steve (hey, someone’s gotta namedrop, even during a Clave)

Response:

, I posted stats on who the top posters were per year.  Readership was about 20,000-40,000 in the early years    thomas, is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present? wayno

There’s no way to count pure lurkers, without having server logs for every access point on the net – world wide. Most of us are already booked for other more worthy endeavors, but I invite my good friend from The Old North State to have at it with his usual gusto ;^) Otherwise, you could scoop a contributing authors list through one of the news archivers for as far back as they go. I figure that roughly 500 authors have contributed (positively or otherwise) since Opening Day. /daytripper (who’s heading for the Cape of Cod for the week. Buh Bye! ;^)

Response:

thomas, is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present?

Well, number of posters would be fairly easy. However, if there’s someone out there who can tell how many lurkers there are, please let me know. I have a few questions to ask about my future. –Steve

Response:

Tom;   From a self professed computer geek and fly fishing fanatic, thank you.          Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

, I posted stats on who the top posters were per year.  Readership was about 20,000-40,000 in the early years

        thomas, is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present? wayno

Response:

Amen! Well done Tom. This ng and ROFFT are the major reasons I enjoy my online time. — Jamie http://clik.to/flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom;   From a self professed computer geek and fly fishing fanatic, thank you.          Frank Reid Before you buy.

Response:

Wayne Harrison: … is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present?

Someone somehow used to post USENET readership statistics in one of the news.* newsgroups.  I think they derived actual readership numbers from some NNTP servers, and then did some reasonable math to come up with total readership.  They would also list top posters for the top lists. Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results. Thomas Gilg

Response:

Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results.

I found: http://metalab.unc.edu/usenetb-bin/to-group.pl?rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Not that I have time on my hands you understand<g. — Charlie…

Response:

Remarq.com, which I use as a free newsreader (hence the stupid phone ad at the bottom of my posts) lists ROFF as having 1958 Threads and 2241 posters. Don’t know how far back that goes nor how many of those posters are various "G" alias’ Cheers, Allen Epps Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Wayne Harrison: … is there any way that you or some other tekkie could roughly determine the number of posters/lurkers on roff at the present? Someone somehow used to post USENET readership statistics in one of the news.* newsgroups.  I think they derived actual readership numbers from some NNTP servers, and then did some reasonable math to come up with total readership.  They would also list top posters for the top lists.

You could make REALLY crude guesstimates, but it would be nearly impossible to get real numbers short of asking every ISP newsprovider to track each of their users and report back. They probably did something like, there are x news providers, with y average users a piece, z% of their users read usenet and then look at the posting amounts of each newsgroup to get some idea of the popularity of various group’s readers. It’s probably a good estimate +-40-50%.      - Ken —     "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly,       and I did.  I said I didn’t know."     — Mark Twain

Response:

Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results. I found: http://metalab.unc.edu/usenetb-bin/to-group.pl?rec.outdoors.fishing.fly

Thanks.  On that site I found their explanation on how the readership is estimated… "Readers      Estimated total number of people who read this group, worldwide      There are two sources of error in this number. The number is      computed by multiplying the number of people in the sample who      actually read the group by the ratio of estimated network size to      sample size. The estimated total can therefore be biased by errors in      the network size estimate (see above) and also by errors in the      determination of whether or not someone reads a group. Assuming that      "reading a group" is roughly the same as "thumbing through a      magazine", in that you don’t necessarily have to read anything, but      you have to browse through it and see what is there, then the      measurement error will come primarily from inability to locate .newsrc      files, which can either be protected or moved out of root directories.      There is no way of measuring the effect on the measurements from      unlocated .newsrc files, but it is not likely to be more than a few      percent of the total news readers. "      - Ken —     "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly,       and I did.  I said I didn’t know."     — Mark Twain

Response:

Someone with time on their hands might cruise the news.* groups to see if they still post such results. I found: http://metalab.unc.edu/usenetb-bin/to-group.pl?rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Not that I have time on my hands you understand<g. — Charlie…

    chocolat, you da king uh da world!  and the source is located in a unc.edu file–unfreaking impeachable! wayno

Response:

Question:

anyone have any experience with swift canoes. am looking at the temegami wondering how initial stability is needed for two large people to fish off of

Response:

I’m quite familiar with Swift Canoes (Mattawa, Kip, Winisk, all the solos, Mad, and Dumo).  The Temagami is a new boat (2000), that is similair to a Winisk in most dimensions, however is wider, deeper and has less bow rocker and more stern rocker.  That means that it will carry a bit more, be a bit slower and will have less stern drag.  The Winisk is a very nice boat.  It may not be my favorite tripping boat, but it is quick when properly trimmed and it has lots of flare for dryness, and soft chines to eliminate catching on waves.  Generally speaking the Winisk is a very nice canoe. As for balance the Winisk is easy to balance, however it exhibits the same old Swift wiggle you get in most of the Winters designed boats. It often puts first time paddler off.  What I’m speaking about is the wiggle in the initial stability that the boat develops with each stroke while paddling.  It’s hard to describe, but it is more of a feeling than anything else.  Once you paddle a mile or so you won’t feel it, but it is noticeable after paddling other boats that don’t wiggle.  The Winisk and all Swifts have impeccable secondary stability, a practiced paddler can put the one rail well below the water surface and not loose stability in a swift boat.  This is useful when executing sharp apex turns.  Swifts track well and compare well against similair canoes in all matters of performance. I recommend you take one for a paddle, try a Winisk too.  For that matter try a Bell Northwind, or a MRC Horizon, or several 17-18′ We-No- Nahs too (Sundower, Jensen, Minnesota II, Odyssey, and Champlain. Western Canoeing als makes a few comparable boats. PK Before you buy.

Response:

I’ll second everything that PK said.  I own the Winter-designed, 18-foot Swift Cirrus, 54 pounds in an expedition kevlar layup. The initial stability is poor.  The boat freely rocks through about 5 degrees with each stroke and scares beginners but it can be heeled until the gunwales are wet and just gets tighter and tighter as the angle increases.  I fly fish standing up in it. The quality of construction is superb with beautiful contrasting wood work for thwarts, seats and yoke.  Outfitting is thoughtful, with a sliding bow seat, molded-in flotation chambers with valves that can open to allow compensation for temperature expansion of the air inside and a nicely contoured carrying yoke. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Michael A. Barbalic writes: anyone have any experience with swift canoes. am

looking at the temegami wondering how initial stability is needed for two large people to fish off of

There are several Swift Canoe models listed among the reader’s gear reiviews at http://www.paddling.net/ , but not the model you mention in your post. You may find them useful anyway. Good luck! " If clean air and water and a healthy environment have not harmed you, please reciprocate."

Response:

Good point on the yoke, Tommy,  But I gotta tell you opt for the optional Shadow Yoke.  It’s worth it’s weight in Ash.  Your shoulders will thank you.  You will be thankful for years that you didn’t cheese on that one!! PK Before you buy.

Response:

PK, I think fitting a yoke is like fitting shoes.  When I bought my Cirrus at Collinsville Canoe and Kayak in Connecticut, they had three different contoured and one padded yoke models (not all Swift) in the store.  I carried a boat with each of them and then selected the Swift "Teal".  I liked it so well that I bought two more "Teals" to retrofit into other canoes. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Michael: I’m not familiar with the Temagami but I have owned 2 Swift Kipawa’s.  My current boat is one of the two. I think that they are fantastic boats.  Very well designed.  Great secondary stablility – as pointed out by other posters. Swift’s construction is impeccable IMHO and so is their customer service. I would suggest going out to one of their outdoor events if you can and paddling their boats.  Alternatively if you can make it to the Dwight store, Oxtounge lake is right in their backyard. One thing I would suggest is that if they don’t have the exact boat in stock that you are looking for (Trim, colour ect.), wait for it.  I’m sure that they will gladly set you up with a loaner if it takes a few weeks to build your dream boat. BTW:  I highly recommend their cherry trim.  It’s a wonderful wood.. quite pleasing to the eye . Good luck, -Aamer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – anyone have any experience with swift canoes. am looking at the temegami wondering how initial stability is needed for two large people to fish off of

Response:

Yep the Cherry is nice, but I can tell you for a fact that if you plan to run whitewater in your boat, buy the ash.  It’s much stronger for the same weight. I had a friend that outfit his Dumo with cherry thwarts and yoke.  He went through the yoke, and two thwarts of cherry with only a good buise.  Sure it was lucky for him that he didn’t break his legs, buttttttttt…..  Thwarts shouldn’t break that easily PK Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

So George, you’ve found yet a new way to assert your commercial presence here…by creating new subject lines…make that HEADLINES several times a day? Don’t you have your own chatroom to manipulate? Bastards All & Lovin Them! Gehrke Fly Rods Best Buy in Nation Chat Site Alive and Well! Since February I have tried to see you as an unfairly treated person here. I find no reason to continue trying. Enough is enough. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

Response:

I think I was an early supporter, having ordered a Bastard, 7.5′, #4 back in December. However, I internalized the wisdom of placing that order especially when the ‘reviews’ began to appear here and decided to cancel the order for my ‘Bastard’ on September 30. Without any other comment I just want to say, boy do I feel relieved.

Response:

I think I was an early supporter, having ordered a Bastard, 7.5′, #4 back in December. However, I internalized the wisdom of placing that order especially when the ‘reviews’ began to appear here and decided to cancel the order for my ‘Bastard’ on September 30. Without any other comment I just want to say, boy do I feel relieved.

this.  That you feel relieved is another question regarding you being able to think for yourself is in question with me.  You could have inspected the qualities of a fine fly rod first hand.  That you seem to have ‘a need’ to post such a remark in public, I regard as disappointing as it does not hurt me as much as it does you. A fair man wouldn’t have done this. Why did you do this?  We never did anything to you but work our hearts out for you. christ. Mr. G.

Response:

Just think Allen, you could have seen first hand what a pile of crap his rods are and sent it back.  After all he does guarantee your money back plus a nasty response to any one who doesn’t like them.  Of course you are out $12 return postage, but getting on George’s sh*t list should be worth something.  :-) Ernie Harrison Keep Livestock Away From Our Rivers and Streams. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I was an early supporter, having ordered a Bastard, 7.5′, #4 back in December. However, I internalized the wisdom of placing that order especially when the ‘reviews’ began to appear here and decided to cancel the order for my ‘Bastard’ on September 30. Without any other comment I just want to say, boy do I feel relieved.

Response:

Just think Allen, you could have seen first hand what a pile of crap his rods are and sent it back.  After all he does guarantee your money back plus a nasty response to any one who doesn’t like them.  Of course you are out $12 return postage, but getting on George’s sh*t list should be worth something.  :-) Ernie Harrison

______  Harrison, you’re very bit of what Doug Knight says you are. None of it good.  This style of post of yours again proves what kind of person you really are and always have been in ROFF. Mr. G.

Response:

Steve, you’re right. I could have waited to check out a Bastard and return it (at my expense) if it didn’t pass inspection. However, I am not a bamboo affecionado(sp?), am not qualified to do a quality inspection, and based my decision on the many defects identified in the reviews ‘Bastards’ have received thus far. As far as posting my cancellation: It appears that ANY constructive discussion/criticism/suggestions about ANYTHING associated with this rod brings forth a venemous assault, i.e. "I Tried a Bastard" by Bob Smith. BTW, have you ever walked into a store intending to buy something and were so offended by what you saw of the interaction between sales and customer that you said to yourself, "forget this", and just turned around and walked out.

Response:

Steve, you’re right. I could have waited to check out a Bastard and return it (at my expense) if it didn’t pass inspection. However, I am not a bamboo affecionado(sp?), am not qualified to do a quality inspection, and based my decision on the many defects identified in the reviews ‘Bastards’ have received thus far. As far as posting my cancellation: It appears that ANY constructive discussion/criticism/suggestions about ANYTHING associated with this rod brings forth a venemous assault, i.e. "I Tried a Bastard" by Bob Smith. BTW, have you ever walked into a store intending to buy something and were so offended by what you saw of the interaction between sales and customer that you said to yourself, "forget this", and just turned around and walked out.

wouldn’t let anyone else do my thinking for me. Mr. G.

Response:

George did everything he could to sell his Bastards (ie. SPAM), take orders and impress us with his genius on this newsgroup.  What goes around come around.  Thus, I think it fair to cancel an order via this newsgroup, even if not tactful. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never posted about the Bastard, but i dont think its fair to say in public that you plan on canceling an order on a rod that you havent seen.  If you have worries about the bastard, its perfectly fine to cancel an order, but to say it in a public forum is just unfairly hurting another person’s business.  Maybe Mr.G’s rods arent perfect but from what i hear, he does have a money back guarantee so you’re not running much risk by at least having it shipped to you to be inspected.

Response:

Just to clarify; I cancelled my purchase of the rod privately, via e-mail, to George on Sept. 30th. My post on ROFF a week later was no different then anyone posting about a broken rod tip, some warranty, some service fee, etc. from any rod, reel, etc. company. BTW, it’s been a long time now but didn’t G post some of the names and number of orders he had? Finally, yes I guess my post may not have been very tactful. I’ll hereby give myself 10 lashes with a wet noodle.

As much as it hurts to say it, I have to agree with George on this one. I have no problem if someone wants to cancel their order but your public statements only point out your preference for bolting with the herd rather than thinking for yourself or just checking it out first hand. Let’s face it. When George started this whole thing it was painfully clear that it was a risk to order a rod from someone that was taking on a fairly demanding technical task for the first time, regardless of what he said. If you didn’t think it was a risk (and the posts at that time made it pretty clear it was) then you were painfully naive. That risk has not changed since the beginning yet you have gotten nervous and bolted at the end. This is still OK by me but what is the purpose of publicly venting your "relief" at this juncture since you have absolutely nothing concrete to add to the debate except to proclaim this herd behavior? I would be embarrassed to publicly advertise that behavior if I were in your position. There have certainly been problems and George has been George. I have read nothing here that is any different than what George has posted since he first appeared on ROFF, so what else is new?! You guys act as if this is all a big surprise. Get real. If you were misled about what it might be like to deal with George on this, I would suggest it was in part done by yourselves and a lust for a new bamboo rod at what was initially hoped to be bargain basement prices. Maybe its time for a reality check and to get over it. As a disclaimer, this post is certainly not a defense of George. Some of the things that have gone on seem reprehensible to me and George is far from pure. Too much said. Jon "sucked into this thread" McAnulty

Response:

Always nice too see the leader of a customer service organization using terms like ‘insect brain’ in a public forum. Especially when its in reference to a potential customer. George, I dont care if your rods are beamed here from God himself … SNIPPED

Exactly my thoughts!  At this point I don’t care how great they might be- I’m willing to skip ever finding out, just so I don’t have to deal with this guy and run the risk of being publicly demeaned. What a freakin’ nutcase. Before you buy.

Response:

…I wouldn’t let anyone else do my thinking for me.

And THIS is a serious problem because you don’t do any of it for yourself either.

Response:

Nice to see the Mrs. has the same accumen. Tom

Response:

I’ve never posted about the Bastard, but i dont think its fair to say in public that you plan on canceling an order on a rod that you havent seen.  If you have worries about the bastard, its perfectly fine to cancel an order, but to say it in a public forum is just unfairly hurting another person’s business.  Maybe Mr.G’s rods arent perfect but from what i hear, he does have a money back guarantee so you’re not running much risk by at least having it shipped to you to be inspected.

It seems to me that the very essence of a public forum such as this newsgroup is to provide an opportunity for anyone to express an opinion; any opinion.  That someone chooses to express an opinion which has a bearing on the central issues covered in this particular newsgroup should not be lamented.  Consider also that the negative reports on Mr. Gerhke’s products undoubtedly do him a lot less damage than does his own behavior in this forum.  Moreover, his incessant peddling of his products here opens the door for responses pertaining to those products even when, as is the case here, those responses are overwhelmingly negative.  ROFF is a community in a truer sense of the word than are most of the cities, towns, and villages in which most of us live.  One of the things which makes this a true community is that the residents, by common if tacit consent, watch out for one another.  This is by and large true despite the vigor with which we sometimes attack one another’s sacred cows.  I am confident that most of the regulars here would warn other members of the community about actual or potential problems with any commercial product regardless of who produces that product.  That one particular purveyor of fly fishing related products chooses to use this forum as his personal marketing outlet should not , and does not, exempt him from the same scrutiny and criticism which any other manufacturer is subject to.  And if his products and his character bring out in public reviews which hurt his business well, what can one say but Tough Shit?!

Response:

Was it Gatlinburg in mid-July, had you just it town and your throat was dry, and did think you’d stop and have yourself a brew?

Response:

Right on John. I first went there in 1931 at age 6. A straw mattress and kerosene lamp. Jack in Nashville.

Response:

Just to clarify; I cancelled my purchase of the rod privately, via e-mail, to George on Sept. 30th. My post on ROFF a week later was no different then anyone posting about a broken rod tip, some warranty, some service fee, etc. from any rod, reel, etc. company. BTW, it’s been a long time now but didn’t G post some of the names and number of orders he had? Finally, yes I guess my post may not have been very tactful. I’ll hereby give myself 10 lashes with a wet noodle.

Response:

Always nice too see the leader of a customer service organization using terms like ‘insect brain’ in a public forum. Especially when its in reference to a potential customer. George, I dont care if your rods are beamed here from God himself or if they truly are the low end of the market. With the defensive, insulting, condescending, aloof and generally surly attitude you take, your business is doomed to fail. If I bought something off of you and decided to return it, and you sent me a nasty-gram along with my refund check, you would regret it for the rest of your business life. Tom.

Response:

George did everything he could to sell his Bastards (ie. SPAM), take orders and impress us with his genius on this newsgroup.  What goes around come around.  Thus, I think it fair to cancel an order via this newsgroup, even if not tactful.

And you’re right, it isn’t tactful. Respectfully, Gladys M. Gehrke Executive Secretary Bastard Fly Rod Company

Response:

every one here knows exactly what they are missing

Response:

every one here knows exactly what they are missing

______ You’re full of it, insect brain.  Along with the other turkeys in Roff just like you. Mr.G.

Response:

I’ve never posted about the Bastard, but i dont think its fair to say in public that you plan on canceling an order on a rod that you havent seen.  If you have worries about the bastard, its perfectly fine to cancel an order, but to say it in a public forum is just unfairly hurting another person’s business.  Maybe Mr.G’s rods arent perfect but from what i hear, he does have a money back guarantee so you’re not running much risk by at least having it shipped to you to be inspected. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

—-snip—- BTW, have you ever walked into a store intending to buy something and were so offended by what you saw of the interaction between sales and customer that you said to yourself, "forget this", and just turned around and walked out.

—-snip—-

Response:

—-snip—- BTW, have you ever walked into a store intending to buy something and were so offended by what you saw of the interaction between sales and customer that you said to yourself, "forget this", and just turned around and walked out. —-snip—-

Gatlinburg! A place I remember with wood sidewalks where I bought one of the finest pair of moccasins I ever owned, real sqaw chewed Cherokee mocs. On the Illinois plains I could fly with them but in rocky terrain were less than ideal. That was 50yrs ago, before all the super interstates and a trip there from Dwight Ill. was an occasion and adventure. Most folks of the area went to Wisconsin or Michigan for pike or musky not to Tenn. for trout. It’s now probably a huge city full of crap and corruption like most of the other places that were peacfull and friendly in my long ago youth.                                                         John Popp                                                      in Sanford Fl.

Response:

George did everything he could to sell his Bastards (ie. SPAM), take orders and impress us with his genius on this newsgroup.  What goes around come around.  Thus, I think it fair to cancel an order via this newsgroup, even if not tactful. And you’re right, it isn’t tactful. Respectfully, Gladys M. Gehrke Executive Secretary Bastard Fly Rod Company

  george, oh i mean gladys (yeah, right), i tried being tactful with your patient, i mean husband. and look where it got me. he comes on here and dumps shit on ANYONE who says ANYTHING that isn’t totally in agreement with his delusions about his rods. the guy is unstable, megalomaniacal,egocentric and a pathalogical liar. i fear for your safety "gladys". if he hasn’t sucked you into his Frostcukoo land beyond all hopes of escape, then RUN Gladys RUN before it’s too late.       bob smith, former weel wisher till i got slammed for trying to tell GG the truth. Before you buy.

Response:

George did everything he could to sell his Bastards (ie. SPAM), take orders and impress us with his genius on this newsgroup.  What goes around come around.  Thus, I think it fair to cancel an order via this newsgroup, even if not tactful.

_______  You don’t know what you’re missing.   Gladys Gehrke

Response:

Question:

Hello, I will be visiting a friend in Ketchum Idaho and was thinking of sampling the fishing for a day.  I prefer flyfishing CR.  Is there any of that nearby Ketchum? Please post reply Robert

Robert, Take a quick jump over to rec.outdoor.fishing.fly.  There are quite a few regulars in there who do nothing but fly fish, and some are in the Ketchum area, or have fished it. Max http://www.inetarena.com

Response:

Hello, I will be visiting a friend in Ketchum Idaho and was thinking of sampling the fishing for a day.  I prefer flyfishing CR.  Is there any of that nearby Ketchum? Please post reply Robert

Response:

Question:

Give me a ‘desecrated fishery’ in solitude any day of the

But if it was "in solitude" it wouldn’t be desecrated.  My point is that desecration comes from problems much deeper than C&R.  I can show you plenty of desecrated C&K fisheries.  Have you fished the Miracle Mile? — -Wayne Trzyna

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[deleted] But you and I have both lived and fished in Colorado long enough to have seen fisheries desecrated long before the recent upsurge in the popularity of C&R flyfishing.  C&R the source of our problems?  Do you really believe that?

Yes I do.  Give me a ‘desecrated fishery’ in solitude any day of the week over a tailwater stock pond with hordes of fishermen. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g. pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

What about fishing in the salt? Most saltwater fly fishing is c&r. –tony

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pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Most of them are extremely crowded fish farms. Willi

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We nailed 19-20 inch cutts this weekend.  And I’ll be god damned if I’ll tell any pure C&R-er where they are.  You see, a C&K-er might go nail a few, but a C&R-er is likely to commercialize the place and have my best friend Dave banned from ever going there. See the danger ?

Well, yes and no.  I’ve been following your arguments for several years, Tim, and while I see your point on some stuff, there is one major weakness: Unable to deal with the bigger problems of commercialization, development, and over-crowding of fisheries, you constantly scape-goat C&R. C&R is a symptom, not a cause.  It is no surprise that its religious fervor has grown greatest at high-visibility destination fisheries, since the outfitters there were quick to recognize that their livelihood was being threatened by over-fishing. But the problems of commercialization, development, and crowding are bigger than just fly-fishing or C&R.   There is always some unwitting well-meaning soul who will tell his friends about a good fishery, and on down the line, some blatantly selfish bastard seeking to profit by exploiting an area The latter comes in many forms, including real-estate developers and slimey policitians financing tax-cuts by selling or leasing off public assets. It’s a big problem, and we seem only to loose ground.  With such frustrating problems it’s easy to throw up our hands and seek a scape-goat.  I guess yours is C&R. But you and I have both lived and fished in Colorado long enough to have seen fisheries desecrated long before the recent upsurge in the popularity of C&R flyfishing.  C&R the source of our problems?  Do you really believe that?  I admit, the whole C&R fly-fishing "scene" is tightly interwoven with the problem and makes a great symbol for it.  But it’s a symtom.  You can eliminate C&R, but you won’t eliminate the problem. Your best bet is not to tell *anyone* about your secret cutthroat hole. It has nothing to do with C&R.  Zebco has a bigger cash-flow than Sage. — -Wayne Trzyna

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and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g.

pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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[a very typical multi use urban watershed described, deleted] While your point may apply in other places or conditions, in this case I think: Yes, the non-C&R public does not deserve access to their land.

I’m sorry Steve, but this really, really is what bugs me about pure C&R fishing.  Elitism.  Pure and simple.  I watched my friend Dave Erickson, a swede with fish blood in his veins, pick the cans and crap out of someone elses camp pit yesterday as we packed out…. Dave is a troller, a flyfisher, a bait fisher, a lure caster… No, Dave is just an angler…and he deserves access to that stretch you described.  As much or more then even you… And, I’ll tell you what… We nailed 19-20 inch cutts this weekend.  And I’ll be god damned if I’ll tell any pure C&R-er where they are.  You see, a C&K-er might go nail a few, but a C&R-er is likely to commercialize the place and have my best friend Dave banned from ever going there. See the danger ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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[deleted] How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question). Fish at high altitude have a rough go of it.  Brookies reproduce like guppies and there is not enough food (because of mommy nature) and not enough predation (because of daddy dearest).

I have fished some high altitude steams and lakes (ponds really) in Colorado but none of them were C&R. In fact I don’t think I have ever fished in a ‘pure’ C&R stream, and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g. — Charlie…

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…snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In terms of multiple use of the waterway and crap in the bushes, why is C&R the answer to a littering problem…?  This has come up before and it bugs me. It is saying to the general public that does not flyfish that they are not welcome on their own public land. Finally…*pure* C&R is never necessary, this is plain scientific fact.  "Restricted Selective Harvest" is a much much better watch phrase for our community, IMO as it is based in science and not philosophy and can not be targetted s such. Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

My home water is a mountain stream on "public" land at high elevation.  The trout population is mostly rainbow with a few cutts and crosses up high, and a few Dolly Varden.  We also have a summer steelhead and salmon run.  All the trout are wild and, because of the elevation, and the resulting short season, the fish must struggle a bit to survive.  The substrate is relatively alkaline however, so the fish food is good when the water finally warms up.  Lots of caddis, stone and mays, as well a "mountain" terrestrials — mostly termites and ants.  I’ve also seen a few sculpins.  Water level varies widely, from 500+ cfs in winter and spring, to 50-70 cfs in autumn. This stream’s drainage is also a recreation destination for four-wheelers and campers who live in the nearby metropolis, and is also a popular hunting area.  Much of the drainage has been logged in that last thirty years and the only old-growth forest remaining occurs in small patches — very few as large as a full section. This little speech serves as preface for my point: I have never seen a C&R fly fisher litter the stream or vandalize the forest.  I have seen all manner of disgusting behavior from other users.  Abandoned cars are the largest (and most easily removed) of the garbage that is dumped along the river, and trees have been hacked or shot down at every "campsite".  It’s amazing what a semi-automatic rifle will do to a stand of young firs.  I have also seen dead herons, crows, kites and ouzels.  I have seen four-wheel drive vehicles driving up the middle of the stream though perfect spawning beds.  I have also seen ten little six-inch or less rainbows laid out in a frying pan over a fire next to the river.  The limit on this steam is 2 over 12. I spend ten to thirty hours a week on this stream and I know most of the C&R fishers who frequent it.  None of them are among the criminal population mentioned above.   While your point may apply in other places or conditions, in this case I think: Yes, the non-C&R public does not deserve access to their land. Steve

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[lots deleted] I think Selective Harvest in the situation described is completely ethical, while in a body with low populations, C&R makes more sense.

Isn’t pure C&R a form of Selective Harvest when that mortality which is incidental to pure C&R equals that culling which is optimal for maintaining or increasing the quality of a fishery.  If any amount of culling would be detrimental, then the fishery should be closed (to wit the greenies in RMNP) and not open to number counting C&R fanatics. I’d be happy if we shit-canned the phrase C&R in favor of selective harvest… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  

I just found out the other day the the Chatooga has some rather historical significance as well.  It’s where Deliverance was filmed. John Fereira

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: : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R : :  on a species of wild fish when that population : :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." : Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a : natural predator of the trout? The other post did a good job of questioning your reasoning of us not being a natural predator, but if you still think we aren’t, why make it a point anyways? Stunted western brook trout populations certainly aren’t "natural", and for that matter bows (mostly) and browns aren’t either. : I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural : selection.   In many of these populations there *are no* big fish, no gill-based predators. : This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this : topic.   Go to your room Tim. Watch out for the rebound  [sed s/Tim/Rick/g] JonCook.

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: : How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest : question). Umm, good spawning habitat and not enough fish-eating predators? Surely you’ve caught stunted, big-headed [brookies, bluegill, bass, etc] somewhere? JonCook.

Actually not in ‘the wild’. I have fished farm ponds with an overpopulation of bluegill but they usually just poisoned the pond and restocked it. Still not sure what that has to do with C&R vs C&K, what if there were no fishing at all? Seems like the situation would take care of itself over time. — Charlie…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.   I just found out the other day the the Chatooga has some rather historical significance as well.  It’s where Deliverance was filmed. John Fereira

The movie was also filmed on the Talulla River (west of the Chatooga). I think that the big falls that Bert and the boys went over was on the Talulla. I used to fish a lot on the Talulla over twenty years ago when I lived in Georgia. North Georgia had some really pretty trout waters, I hope that it still does.

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[deleted] How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question).

Fish at high altitude have a rough go of it.  Brookies reproduce like guppies and there is not enough food (because of mommy nature) and not enough predation (because of daddy dearest). — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  A majority of the fishermen were bait chuckers and spin casters.  The Chatooga is one of the few cold water rivers in Georgia capable of sustaining temperatures below 74 degrees, besides tailwaters (Chatahoochi below Bufford Dam for instance).  The pity of it is that the state has not made the Chatooga a catch and release river.  I know there is controversy on ROFF about catch and release, but on the Chatooga, it would make sense.  A majority of the fish released are caught within 24 hours.  But the thing that concerns me is the up-keep of the river.  The area around Burrells Ford is one giant trash heap.  Crap in the water, the woods, the road, you name it.  I walked upstream for about two miles before I got away from the chaos that the Chatooga has become.  It is a wonderfully beautiful river, not unlike what you might find in Maine.  If the state of Georgia does not do something quickly, they will lose this natural waterway.  Make it catch and release — no more stocking above the Rt 28 bridge.  If they don’t, it will soon look like the fair ground on Monday morning after the circus has left.

Couple O’ Questions and an observation… What is the biggest fish taken from Chatooga each year ? What would the effect of a selective harvest of say 1 fish of this size per day per angler, all others must be released, regulation be ? Do the fish reproduce successfully in the Chatooga ? In terms of multiple use of the waterway and crap in the bushes, why is C&R the answer to a littering problem…?  This has come up before and it bugs me. It is saying to the general public that does not flyfish that they are not welcome on their own public land. Finally…*pure* C&R is never necessary, this is plain scientific fact.  "Restricted Selective Harvest" is a much much better watch phrase for our community, IMO as it is based in science and not philosophy and can not be targetted s such. Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

From my journal… "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R  on a species of wild fish when that population  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." In other words, I will try not to throw rubber bones to starving dogs… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation."

Consider that soon the human race will be stunted.  Do you think we’ll have big heads and little bodies? Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

Hmm.   It’s a plausible theory, Rick, but only a theory.  I know of many, many alpine lakes that are overpopulated with stunted fish.  There is size-threshold beyond which the fish just don’t grow. I’ve seen this condition with each of the following species:         brookies  (brookies, brookies, and more brookies)         cutts         bows         goldens The limiting factor is not genetic, either.  For instance the Montana dept of fish and game takes goldens out of Sylvan lake, where they are stunted, and plants them in other lakes where they grow to large sizes. Now that you mention it, I can’t understand why predation doesn’t solve the problem. — -Wayne Trzyna (Bobber Boy)

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From my journal… "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R on a species of wild fish when that population is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." In other words, I will try not to throw rubber bones to starving dogs…

How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question). I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones. That seems to be about as pur C&K as one can get<g. Is it the ‘wild fish’ designation that makes the difference? — Charlie…

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

I just don’t think you read it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout?

Hmmm, are bears a natural predator of the trout?  They don’t have gills. What about Herons or other kinds of birds that feed on fish.  They don’t have gills either.  Should we therefore deem these animals to be somehow in the wrong to catch fish.  Shall I proceed further?  Would we consider hunting regulations to be unethical when, due to an increase in population the bag limit increases?  Is this not the same issue? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

I’m sorry, but, this is one of the strongest arguments which could be presented on this subject.  Perhaps we should apply this "C&R" concept to hunting.  I’m sure many hunters would agree that "the thrill of the hunt" is the most important part of hunting and the game they get to keep afterwards for food is a pleasurable byproduct of the hunt.  Should we therefore define hunters who kill their quarry unethical?  Maybe we shouldn’t hunt deer because we don’t have antlers.  Should hunters be imposed with regulations which would require them to only use tranquilizer guns to shoot the game?  They could then "release" the game to be hunted again at a later date. It should be our ethical responsibility to catch and kill fish when they are in an overpopulated, undernourished environment.  The results otherwise will end in large numbers of fish dying.  Then, depending upon extent of the fish kill, there is the time of repopulation.  It is more "humane" (take that as you may) to be allowed to "remove" a certain number of the population of any game species to prevent these things from happening. Mr. Fletcher, the logic which you are using to argue your point is fundamentally flawed.  Tim’s post could not have been more on track. I apologize to anyone who found the length of this response offensive.  I do not apologize for the content. John

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If I remember my basic biology right, there may not be any big fish to do the natural selection. Each body of water has a carrying capacity of so many pounds per acre of life. If that number was, say, 10 lbs. then there could be one 10 lb. fish, 10 one lb. fish or 100 one-tenth pound fish. Mother Nature doesn’t care. When the body of water reaches capacity, fish populations start to stunt and all you have are small fish. As far as mankind being a natural predator for trout, we rank right up there with bears, raccoons, eagles and many other critters without gills. I think Selective Harvest in the situation described is completely ethical, while in a body with low populations, C&R makes more sense. — Web-Guides.com on the Internet at — http://web-guides.com FREE sample issue, subscription to Outdoor Adventure Digest     Webtours, Outdoor Adventures, ABC Books and more<< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Charlie Choc writes:

<<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  A majority of the fishermen were bait chuckers and spin casters.  The Chatooga is one of the few cold water rivers in Georgia capable of sustaining temperatures below 74 degrees, besides tailwaters (Chatahoochi below Bufford Dam for instance).  The pity of it is that the state has not made the Chatooga a catch and release river.  I know there is controversy on ROFF about catch and release, but on the Chatooga, it would make sense.  A majority of the fish released are caught within 24 hours.  But the thing that concerns me is the up-keep of the river.  The area around Burrells Ford is one giant trash heap.  Crap in the water, the woods, the road, you name it.  I walked upstream for about two miles before I got away from the chaos that the Chatooga has become.  It is a wonderfully beautiful river, not unlike what you might find in Maine.  If the state of Georgia does not do something quickly, they will lose this natural waterway.  Make it catch and release — no more stocking above the Rt 28 bridge.  If they don’t, it will soon look like the fair ground on Monday morning after the circus has left. Dave LaCourse

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Question:

Does anyone know an e-mail address for Gary or Jason Borger? I would like to ask one of them a question about fly lines.

Don’t know an e-mail address, but if you look on the back of one of his videos you will find a phone number for his company.  I called them one time regarding availability of one of their titles and Gary answered the phone.  Worth a shot.  You can probably also reach him (although in a round about way) through Thomas & Thomas rods.                                                Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Borger don’t post… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Borger don’t post… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Who can blame him! Ralph H

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Jasons E-mail is listed at www.Flyfishamerica.com

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Borger don’t post… — TimW Halfordian Golfer Who can blame him!

all of us that do…for starters… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Does anyone know an e-mail address for Gary or Jason Borger? I would like to ask one of them a question about fly lines. Thanks! Steve Rosenblum

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  Does anyone know an e-mail address for Gary or Jason Borger? I would   like to ask one of them a question about fly lines.   Thanks!   Steve Rosenblum  Both can be reached through Flyfishers Online at www.flyfishers.com PFY

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Question:

Big river, or small creek, with just enough fish to be challenging and *no* other people around is quality.  The rest is fluff.

Interesting concept.  I would partially agree with you in that the number of fish doesnt’ control the quality of the experience.  Where I would disagree with you is when you use a small number of fish present as a positive measure of quality.  You want to be challenged, avoid the easy pocket water where you know you can pick up twenty a day.  Control your behavior (no not you personaly, you as in all of us), protect the environment (insert your definition here), and the rest will take care of itself. phil

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snip

 If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" snip

I agree with the premiss that the excitement of fishing is the reuslt of not knowing whether you will catch fish on a given stretch of river on a given day.  It is those days when I struggle to catch fish that make my succesful days exciting and rewarding.  Those struggling days provide a definition of successful ones.  A good example of this was last spring when I was still working very hard to catch any fish on a dry fly.  I would fish all day and catch one or two small trout.  One day I hit a Hendrickson hatch that was unbelievable.  I stood in the rain on six foot wide stream throwing without a fisherman in sight and caught more 13-15" trout (that is a nice fish here in Minnesota) than I could count.  I know because at first I was counting.  I rememeber getting to 25.  At some point after twenty five I just stopped fishing.  It wasn’t dark yet and the fish were still biting but I stopped.  I was bored.  It was too easy. I fished that stream around 50 times last year.  I never had another day like that.  Still, the memory of that day and a possible repeat is what got me out of bed at 3:00am to drive 80 miles to that same stream.  I don’t think I would fish that stream if I caught fish like that every time.  I also don’t think I would fish that stream if it were packed with fishermen (I saw a total of two fishermen all year).  I think I would go somewhere more challenging and rationalize it by saying it had bigger fish or more exciting fish to fight or less people. Mike H

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserves to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the                                                     ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ appreciation to fade then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" I concur in this!  As I have said before, this is how I make my decision to stop fishing. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley 2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, ORSorry boys, BUT I WANT TO CATCH SO MANY FISH THAT I CAN’T REMEMBER ANY

OF THE "NORMAL" FISH, JUST ALL OF THE GIANTS. (I release most anyway!)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe there is one thing Tim and Myself may be able to agree on and I hope so can most other readers of this group. Quality; angling should be about quality. I came across this in "Wild Steelhead and Salmon" V3 No 2 Winter 1997 from Bob linsenman’s 10 ways to Seduce Michigan Steelhead "Under the right conditions it is more than possible , it is probable, that a reasonably skilled fly angler will hook up in excess of 10 times over the course of a day. And that same skilled angler will bring to hand a high percentage of hooked fish. How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" All emphasis is mine

You’re going to get mad at me…in advance 8^)… My serious contention with C&R is just that.  It reduces the quality of the experience 10 fold.  What happiness is there in catching a fish in an area with a fish behind every stick ? or an angler around every bend ?   Big river, or small creek, with just enough fish to be challenging and *no* other people around is quality.  The rest is fluff. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" All emphasis is mine Ralph H

I agree. One steelhead is a great day.  Ten or twenty days of fishing between hookups makes that one fish even more rewarding. Even trout get boring if you don’t have the occasional day where nothing works, to help bring some mystery and questioning back to it. Mark Vinsel — http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserves to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the                                                          ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ appreciation to fade then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion"

I concur in this!  As I have said before, this is how I make my decision to stop fishing. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley       2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Organization: Internet Direct SNIP    I came across this in "Wild Steelhead and Salmon" V3 No 2 Winter 1997    from Bob linsenman’s 10 ways to Seduce Michigan Steelhead    "Under the right conditions it is more than possible , it is     probable, that a d reasonably skilled fly angler will hook up in     excess of 10 times over the course of a day. And that same skilled     angler will bring to hand a high percentage of hooked fish.    How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel    strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be    individually remembered and appreciated. SNIP    Ralph H Not to disagree with you in any way (I too worship steelhead), but it struck me as odd to see an article about Michigan Steelhead in a magazine called "Wild Steelhead and Atlantic Salmon".  They should start a magazine called "Introduced and Hatchery Steelhead and Atlantic Salmon" for this topic.  Though, I should say that I’ve never really understood the scope of this magazine anyway. cheers,         -tgades

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I believe there is one thing Tim and Myself may be able to agree on and I hope so can most other readers of this group. Quality; angling should be about quality. I came across this in "Wild Steelhead and Salmon" V3 No 2 Winter 1997 from Bob linsenman’s 10 ways to Seduce Michigan Steelhead "Under the right conditions it is more than possible , it is probable, that a reasonably skilled fly angler will hook up in excess of 10 times over the course of a day. And that same skilled angler will bring to hand a high percentage of hooked fish. How much is enough? What is reasonable gratification? I feel strongly that each of these splendid wild creatures deserve s to be individually remembered and appreciated. If we hook and play a number that causes the memory to blur, the appreciation to faden then WE HAVE EXCEEDED THE ETHICAL LIMIT. My opinion" All emphasis is mine Ralph H

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Question:

Lots of FF magazines out there now. Which one (1) do you like best/rely upon for info and entertainment? Just curious. — Gary Soucie, / Fax 1-301-322-4329 / Tel 1-301-322-8373

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I just spent an evening comparing Fly Fisherman, Fly Fishing Quarterly, American Angler, and Fly Fishing and Tying.  For my money, the best is Fly Fisherman.  I like the mix of articles and I was particularly impressed with their ability to see both sides of complex conservation issues.  This month’s edition has a great article about Pennsylvania’s Falling Spring Creek – the photography is just beautiful! Dave Anderson Columbia, Maryland

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I just spent an evening comparing Fly Fisherman, Fly Fishing Quarterly, American Angler, and Fly Fishing and Tying.  For my money, the best is Fly Fisherman.  I like the mix of articles and I was particularly impressed with their ability to see both sides of complex conservation issues.  This month’s edition has a great article about Pennsylvania’s Falling Spring Creek – the photography is just beautiful! Dave Anderson Columbia, Maryland

want to see the best, check out California Flyfisher, the only magazine I read from cover to cover.         Mike

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right here. TimW

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Lots of FF magazines out there now. Which one (1) do you like best/rely upon for info and entertainment? Just curious. — Gary Soucie, / Fax 1-301-322-4329 / Tel 1-301-322-8373

IMHO, the answer to this question may vary depending on which coast you live and/or fish on.   Tight text, Charley

Response:

Question:

…Sure some will be lost to C&R mortality but that’s only a fraction of what would be lost if every fisher person was allowed to bonk even a single fish  a day or even a season Mortality rate aside, there have been many times when I have caught the SAME trout more than once, even in the same day–even in the same HOUR!

I read this morning of a Skues story where he wrote that flyfishing hell would be to catch fish all the time, that are all exactly the same size and appearance…how are you living, JQT ? 8^)…. TimW

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…Sure some will be lost to C&R mortality but that’s only a fraction of what would be lost if every fisher person was allowed to bonk even a single fish a day or even a season

This would be an important point if fish didn’t reproduce (they do), and lived forever unless killed by a predator (they don’t).   A lot of the waters around here are heavily populated with trout, see few anglers, and the fish are delicious.  (Pink flesh, often taste like salmon.  Can’t wait til next summer.) There’s nothing wrong with keeping fish, as long as you’re not exceeding the carrying capacity of the fishery.  If you fish a stream that can’t handle a harvest of one fish per angler per season, maybe you should think twice about fishing there. Charlie Quinton

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…Sure some will be lost to C&R mortality but that’s only a fraction of what would be lost if every fisher person was allowed to bonk even a single fish a day or even a season A lot of the waters around here are heavily populated with trout, see few anglers, and the fish are delicious.  (Pink flesh, often taste like salmon.  Can’t wait til next summer.)

Wow I’ll be there next summer! There’s nothing wrong with keeping fish, as long as you’re not exceeding the carrying capacity of the fishery.  If you fish a stream that can’t handle a harvest of one fish per angler per season, maybe you should think twice about fishing there.

Some streams I fish have only 200 to 400 steelhead per year yet on c &r regs produce very fine fisheries for a small numbers of anglers. Allow even a kill and there’d be enough people bonking fish to put the runs into serious trouble. I kill fish too but I’m not dogmatic about HAVING to do it to redeem my flyfishing/sporting soul. Do you kill every fish you catch on these fine Wyomming rivers until you reach the legal creel limit and then go home?

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…Sure some will be lost to C&R mortality but that’s only a fraction of what would be lost if every fisher person was allowed to bonk even a single fish  a day or even a season

Mortality rate aside, there have been many times when I have caught the SAME trout more than once, even in the same day–even in the same HOUR!                                                        __ john quill taylor                                     / / writer at large                                      / /   Hewlett-Packard, Storage Systems Division    __     /_/ / Boise, Idaho U.S.A.                         /_/  __ _ Telephone: (208) 396-2328 (MST = GMT – 7)     /  \  / Snail Mail: Hewlett-Packard                    / \             11413 Chinden Blvd                 \             Boise, Idaho 83714                   _/             Mailstop 852                            _/                                                   _/       "When in doubt, do as doubters do." – jqt –                   china, haiti, rwanda, cuba, bosnia, … we have a list,              where is our schindler?

Response:

T-bone ( no meat head despite the handle) among others has suggested there is no rational fore 100% C&R. How about this; it’s a rationing system for a particular body of water; it limits utilization to those who are willing to fish without the reward of a pice of meat . This can be a very big deal on water with limited numbers of quality wild fish; many of our west coast salmon and steelehad runs meet this criterea where runs of a few hundred hogh quality fishy (such as summer steelhead) cannot tolerate a kill fishery. Sure some will be lost to C&R mortality but that’s only a fraction of what would be lost if every fisher person was allowed to bonk even a single fish  a day or even a season

Response:

T-bone ( no meat head despite the handle) among others has suggested there is no rational fore 100% C&R. How about this; it’s a rationing system for a particular body of water; it limits utilization to those who are willing to fish without the reward of a pice of meat . This can be a very big deal on water with limited numbers of quality wild fish; many of our west coast salmon and steelehad runs meet this criterea where runs of a few hundred hogh quality fishy (such as summer steelhead) cannot tolerate a kill fishery. Sure some will be lost to C&R mortality but that’s only a fraction of what would be lost if every fisher person was allowed to bonk even a single fish  a day or even a season

Sounds very un-Pavlovian what with no meat reward and all!  Only vegetarians would drool at this. Mike

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T-bone ( no meat head despite the handle) among others has suggested there is no rational fore 100% C&R. How about this; it’s a rationing system for a particular body of water; it limits utilization to those who are willing to fish without the reward of a pice of meat . This can be a very big deal on water with limited numbers of quality wild fish; many of our west coast salmon and steelehad runs meet this criterea where runs of a few hundred hogh quality fishy (such as summer steelhead) cannot tolerate a kill fishery. Sure some will be lost to C&R mortality but that’s only a fraction of what would be lost if every fisher person was allowed to bonk even a single fish  a day or even a season

Many people take the fish home, freeze them, season them for 6 to 12 month in the freezer, then throw them away. I have suggested to release the fish to many as a way to keep your clothes and car from smelling. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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