Question:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… "….covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers…." Fascinating.  Thanks for posting it. JR

thanks jeffie…. bartram’s travels is a classic….. well worth the read. –waldo, hoping i still have a copy somewheres…

Response:

Appreciate posts on FF history, thanx. Dave

Response:

Jeff  I missed the post explaing UnC  web to read early Bartram—-please offer again– Playing tennis thru Nov 11 but if you are interested in a western N.C. trip after that   let me know–only one  proviso ( a legal term I think )   motel rooms cannot be exited before six in morning.–Jeff and IJ sharinmg motel room-at 2:30 AM  AM Jeff showers and says I’ve had enought sleep  let"s o  – IJ ask it’s raining and dark and foggy and the next three hour drive is all curves–what the hell are we going to do in Graham Co. N.C at five Am in the mornimng??   Jeff yea but we will miss most of the traffic.  IJ

Response:

Playing tennis thru Nov 11 but if you are interested in a western N.C. trip after that   let me know–only one  proviso ( a legal term I think ) motel rooms cannot be exited before six in morning.–Jeff and IJ sharinmg motel room-at 2:30 AM  AM Jeff showers and says I’ve had enought sleep  let"s o  – IJ ask it’s raining and dark and foggy and the next three hour drive is all curves–what the hell are we going to do in Graham Co. N.C at five Am in the mornimng??   Jeff yea but we will miss most of the traffic.  IJ

I believe that somehow I must be related to Jeff Miller. I’m off to call my mom. –Steve

Response:

i think this is what you wanted, but not sure…  http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html …i’m probably not gonna be able to get back to the mountains before christmas… but i might get ol pj and make a visit to you and that bass pond you keep braggin about… we’d arrive early and leave late, eat all your food, and drink your whisky… and since jim’s comin, you might wanna warn dene too… i hear it’s nice in wilmington this time of year… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –        The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization project, Documenting the American South.

Response:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida…

"….covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers…."   Fascinating.  Thanks for posting it. JR

Response:

That ‘delicious food’ part doesn’t seem to fit, does it? riverman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… jeff <Page 108 "ON my return, I found some of my companions fishing for trout, round about the edges of the floating nymphaea, and not unsuccessfully, having then caught more than sufficient for us all. As the method of taking these fish is curious and singular, I shall just mention it. THEY are taken with a hook and line, but without any bait. Two people are in a little canoe, one sitting in the stern to steer, and the other near the bow, having a rod ten or twelve feet in length, to one end of which is tied a strong line, about twenty inches in length, to which is fastened three large hooks, back to back. These are fixed very securely, and covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers, all which form a tuft, or tassel, nearly as large as one’s fist, and entirely cover and conceal the hooks:

this is called a bob. The steersman paddles softly, and proceeds slowly along shore, keeping the

boat parallel to it, at a distance just sufficient to admit the fisherman to reach the edge of

the floating weeds along shore: he now ingeniously swings the bob backwards and forwards, just above the surface, and sometimes tips the water with it; when the unfortunate cheated trout

instantly springs from under the weeds, and seizes the supposed prey. Thus he is caught without a

possibility of escape, unless he break the hooks, line, or rod, which he, however, sometime does

by dint of strength; but, to prevent this, the fisherman used to the sport is careful not to

raise the reed suddenly up, but jerks it instantly backwards, then steadily drags the sturdy reluctant

fish to the side of the < Page 109 canoe, and with a sudden upright jerk brings him into it. THE head of this fish makes about one third of his length, and

consequently the mouth is very large: birds, fish, frogs, and even serpents, are frequently found in its stomach. THE trout is of lead colour, inclining to a deep blue, and marked with

transverse waved lists, of a deep slate colour, and when fully grown, has a cast of red, or brick colour. The fins, with the tail, which is large, and beautifully formed, are of a light

reddish purple, or flesh colour, the whole body is covered with large scales. But what is most singular,

this fish is remarkably ravenous; nothing living, that he can seize upon, escapes his jaws, and the opening

and extending of the branchiostega, at the moment he rises to the surface to seize his prey,

discovering his bright red gills, through the transparent waters, give him a very terible appearance. Indeed

it may be observed, that all fish of prey have this opening and covering of the gills very large, in

order to discharge the great quantity of water, which they take in at their mouth, when they

strike at their prey. This fish is nearly cuniform, the body tapering gradually from the breast to the

tail, and lightly compressed on each side. They frequently weigh fifteen, twenty and thirty pounds, and are delicious food. …quoted from Travels Through North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West

Florida, the Cherokee Country, the Extensive Territories of the Muscogulges, or Creek Confederacy, and the

Country of the Chactaws; Containing An Account of the Soil and Natural Productions of Those Regions,

Together with Observations on the Manners of the Indians. Embellished with Copper-Plates (spine) Bartram’s Travels William Bartram xxxiv, 522 p., ill. PHILADELPHIA: PRINTED BY JAMES & JOHNSON. M, DCC, XCI. Call number VC917 B29 (North Carolina Collection, University of North

Carolina at Chapel Hill) http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html —–        The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization

project, Documenting the American South. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

…reading a bit of ol bartram’s writings from the late 1700s (e-document on a UNC web site noted at the bottom of this post)and ran upon the following… southern fly-fishing heritage, eh? course, like most furriners, ol bartram didn’t know a trout from whatever it was those boys were dappin out from under the river bank in Florida… jeff <Page 108         "ON my return, I found some of my companions fishing for trout, round about the edges of the floating nymphaea, and not unsuccessfully, having then caught more than sufficient for us all. As the method of taking these fish is curious and singular, I shall just mention it.         THEY are taken with a hook and line, but without any bait. Two people are in a little canoe, one sitting in the stern to steer, and the other near the bow, having a rod ten or twelve feet in length, to one end of which is tied a strong line, about twenty inches in length, to which is fastened three large hooks, back to back. These are fixed very securely, and covered with the white hair of a deer’s tail, shreds of a red garter, and some particoloured feathers, all which form a tuft, or tassel, nearly as large as one’s fist, and entirely cover and conceal the hooks: this is called a bob. The steersman paddles softly, and proceeds slowly along shore, keeping the boat parallel to it, at a distance just sufficient to admit the fisherman to reach the edge of the floating weeds along shore: he now ingeniously swings the bob backwards and forwards, just above the surface, and sometimes tips the water with it; when the unfortunate cheated trout instantly springs from under the weeds, and seizes the supposed prey. Thus he is caught without a possibility of escape, unless he break the hooks, line, or rod, which he, however, sometime does by dint of strength; but, to prevent this, the fisherman used to the sport is careful not to raise the reed suddenly up, but jerks it instantly backwards, then steadily drags the sturdy reluctant fish to the side of the < Page 109 canoe, and with a sudden upright jerk brings him into it.         THE head of this fish makes about one third of his length, and consequently the mouth is very large: birds, fish, frogs, and even serpents, are frequently found in its stomach. THE trout is of lead colour, inclining to a deep blue, and marked with transverse waved lists, of a deep slate colour, and when fully grown, has a cast of red, or brick colour. The fins, with the tail, which is large, and beautifully formed, are of a light reddish purple, or flesh colour, the whole body is covered with large scales. But what is most singular, this fish is remarkably ravenous; nothing living, that he can seize upon, escapes his jaws, and the opening and extending of the branchiostega, at the moment he rises to the surface to seize his prey, discovering his bright red gills, through the transparent waters, give him a very terible appearance. Indeed it may be observed, that all fish of prey have this opening and covering of the gills very large, in order to discharge the great quantity of water, which they take in at their mouth, when they strike at their prey. This fish is nearly cuniform, the body tapering gradually from the breast to the tail, and lightly compressed on each side. They frequently weigh fifteen, twenty and thirty pounds, and are delicious food. …quoted from Travels Through North & South Carolina, Georgia, East & West Florida, the Cherokee Country, the Extensive Territories of the Muscogulges, or Creek Confederacy, and the Country of the Chactaws; Containing An Account of the Soil and Natural Productions of Those Regions, Together with Observations on the Manners of the Indians. Embellished with Copper-Plates (spine) Bartram’s Travels William Bartram xxxiv, 522 p., ill. PHILADELPHIA: PRINTED BY JAMES & JOHNSON. M, DCC, XCI. Call number VC917 B29 (North Carolina Collection, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/bartram/bartram.html         The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-CH digitization project, Documenting the American South.

Response:

Question:

Has anyone heard of these rods quality-wise. I saw a bloke fishing with one and I’d like to find out a bit more. Do they have a website (I tried all the obvious ones). Ari Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

http://www.outdoor-catalog.com/fishing/kinsingt.htm TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

http://877icefish.safeshopper.com/96/cat96.htm?757 http://www.crystalriver.net/flies.html http://www.nationalfishingsupply.com/rods1.html http://www.earthcommerce.com/source/VN82607SPRT24880.html http://www.hallsport.com/category/fishing_equipment.htm Crystal River Tackle is apparently sold by a company called South Bend. Tl MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.outdoor-catalog.com/fishing/kinsingt.htm

Response:

Ummmm…… Thanks Mike. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://877icefish.safeshopper.com/96/cat96.htm?757 http://www.crystalriver.net/flies.html http://www.nationalfishingsupply.com/rods1.html http://www.earthcommerce.com/source/VN82607SPRT24880.html http://www.hallsport.com/category/fishing_equipment.htm Crystal River Tackle is apparently sold by a company called South Bend. Tl MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de http://www.outdoor-catalog.com/fishing/kinsingt.htm

Ari Bert                                        Gaelle Bert +27 (0) 83 232 9903                             +27 (0) 83 236 5308 Flyfishing Corner +27 (0) 11 447 7230                             Shop 94, Admirals Court +27 (0) 11 882 8537 (fax)                       Cnr Craddock & Tyrwhitt www.troutfishing.co.za                                Street, Rosebank P.O.Box 79067 Senderwood 2145 South Africa

Response:

Question:

This is mutating the topic somewhat, but here goes: I like the "Trilene knot" quite a bit.  It retains much of the original line strength and is just as easy to tie as a regular clinch knot.  The name irritates me, however.  Can a line company truly lay claim to a knot?  Must we make an advertisement for somebody every time we teach someone this knot?  Is it known by any other name? Pete C

Response:

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."

I do hope that this isn’t the case! My researches would really go down the plug hole, were it so. The mind boggles at the possibilities: the ‘bond traders’ hitch for tying up your mule; the ‘gynaecologists twist’ for wire shock tippets; the ‘lawyers loop’ (not safe; too slippery!) ….. the possibilities are endless. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

<all the good stuff snipped (this is going to get confusing).

Funny thing about knots; while I’ve never had any trouble tying them, talking about them has always made my head spin.  Reading back through this thread I find myself getting a bit dizzy. TL!

Response:

Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot".

<rest snipped and neatly tied off with a surgeon’s knot… Your description is right Wolfgang.  As a Vascular and Thoracic surgeon, I think I can speak with some knowledge on such things  Basically, a surgeon’s knot is a reef knot, usually tied with one hand against the held-out strand of the other end of the ‘thread’.  The double-throw variant is also used for extra security when needed. By that, I mean TWICE round instead of once per layer as in the simple reef knot.   Usually, the reef knot is extended by several more ‘throws’ however – it is not common to use just the two throws, or layers.  Many surgical suture materials are monofilament and slippery, to aid in passing through tissues without cutting through, so they tend to slip when knotted, therefore most surgeons would tie at least 5 throws in these materials, with perhaps 3 in braided materials that slip less. There are obviously numerous variations also, such as deliberately tying a ‘granny’ knot – both throws in the same direction rather than opposite directions – so that the knot can be ’snugged’ down while still having some friction, then finishing off with a throw in the opposite direction to lock the knot. The "Surgeon’s Knot" as described in the fishing books is nothing like a ‘real’ surgeon’s knot.  I don’t know how it got its name. — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "SPAMLESS" from the address in the header.

Response:

I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time.

Very interesting Wolfgang. What you have described is exactly the ’surgeon’s knot’, as described by Cyrus Day, as I cited in my original post. That’s good for me, because it supports the current use of the name for that particular knot (i.e., a ’square knot’ with two twists along each edge). Your earlier post, re. the ‘water knot’ you have used in climbing and the method of its construction is exactly that described by Day in his book. I suspect that the single overhand ‘water knot’ was adequate as an angler’s knot in the days of horsehair. The two, three and four turn versions were clearly developed to produce a safe knot when using the slippery synthetic line materials that came along later. Going back to the ’surgeon’s knot’, you mentioned the ‘granny knot’ as being unsafe cf. the ’square knot’ (which in Britain we more usually call the ‘reef knot’). In the 1991 edition of ‘Practical Fishing Knots’, by Sosin and Kreh, the authors describe what they call the ’simple blood knot’. This is nothing like a normal ‘blood knot’, but is slightly similar to the real ’surgeons knot’ as you described (this is going to get confusing). The big difference is that it is in fact a ‘granny knot’, but with seven twists along the two parallel edges of the box. It looks odd, but Sosin and Kreh claim nearly 100% knot efficiency for it. Thanks for the posts: interesting, but doesn’t really get me closer to tracking down when the two turn ‘water knot’ started being called the ’surgeons knot’. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers.

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."   Even in that context, it could still have origins in medical usage while not necessarily keeping its surgical configuration.   If you get a real answer, please share it. Joe F.

Response:

Hi Tony :   The Surgeon’s knot is the ones described by the other people in their replies, as a double and then a stacked set of two single throws that is used to close an incision. The knot that we use to tie on leaders etc. that we call a surgeon’s knot is also used to join Rib Stitch cord that is used to hold the cloth covering onto an airplane wing when the stitcher has misjudged the length and needs a bit more to finish the rib correctly.   Just thought that you might find it of interest.    Jim Rahn    Guelph, Ontario,    Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot". In addition to climbing rock and replacing more tippet than I care to think about, I have also done some surgical procedures on rats, and a great deal of woodworking. As a result of the woodworking I have had sutures put into every one of my fingers at one time or another. Having watched the procedure so often I know that the knots surgeons use are the same as the ones I use on rats; they are in fact simple square knots.  A square knot is, or course, simply two stacked overhand knots.  Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time. When two (or possibly even more) turns are taken around the needle holder before drawing tight it is exactly the same procedure as we perform in tying on tippet material.  The only real difference is that the surgeon performs this procedure on a single strand as opposed to the two that we use in making the "surgeon’s knot."  A casual observer would easily be fooled into thinking that the fisherman and the surgeon are doing exactly the same thing.  The error is almost certainly compounded by the fact that many of us use a hemostat to help tie our knot in the stream.  Not only is the process the same, we even use the same (to the untrained eye) tool. Sound plausible?

Response:

Wolfgang, Your description of how to tie the knot during surgery is correct. The surgeon’s knot is a knot that uses a self-retaining frictional hitch for the first throw. The two wraps in the first throw create more friction between the strands so that tissue layers that want to pull apart are held in apposition while the second throw is placed. A variant on this theme is to do three wraps on the first throw if there is a lot of tension between the tissue edges. However, the subsequent wrap is then two throws instead of one so the knot will not be too assymetric (which creates problems with knot security). The surgeon’s knot is only used when there is sufficient tension to pull the edges you are trying to appose apart while you are doing the second throw, otherwise suturing is done with a square knot (there are some caveats to this generality). I suspect that the flyfishing surgeon’s knot was given that name because it visually resembles the surgeon’s knot used for suturing (even though its structure is totally different). My guess is that it was named by someone with some familiarity with it in the medical context. However, I would be surprised if it was a surgeon since it is a different knot and surgeons are somewhat picky about naming knots and suture patterns. Cheers. Jon McAnulty

Response:

<snip In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted.

<snip I’m not sure I can help you on this one Tony; in fact, I may muddy the waters a bit more.  I’ve done a bit of rock climbing over the years and used what climbers refer to as a water knot to form loops in webbing or to join two pieces of webbing together (webbing is tubular woven nylon which has been pressed flat).  The climber’s water knot starts with a simple overhand knot tied near the end of a piece of webbing.  To make a loop, the other end is pushed back through the overhand knot following (in reverse) the path of the original end. Tying two pieces of webbing together is done in exactly the same fashion.  The only difference is that one uses the ends of two pieces rather than both ends of one piece.  The effect is essentially the same as the fisherman’s ’surgeon’s knot’ except that there is only one turn as opposed to the three or four used in the surgeon’s knot.  So, at bottom, the only real difference between the two knots is the number of turns taken, unless one thinks that the method of tying is significant.  The water knot used by climbers is the same as the surgeon’s knot used by fishermen.  Of course, I don’t know whether the climber’s water knot is the same as the one you made reference to. Hope this helps. TL.

Response:

Question:

Can anyone tell me anything about the aerocomp kits and company? They look to offer a good plane with a claim for relatively low build times. Does anyone know if the build times are realistic? Are the kits relatively easy to put together? Is the company trustworthy? Etc. Scott

Response:

Can anyone tell me anything about the aerocomp kits and company? They look to offer a good plane with a claim for relatively low build times. Does anyone know if the build times are realistic? Are the kits relatively easy to put together? Is the company trustworthy? Etc. Scott

Scott; I have been asking the same questions, about CompAir 6.  General responses were yes, the kit is as advertised, and build times are fairly realistic based on semi experienced builders.  Dealing with the company was said to be excellent, and the fit and tolerance of the parts (a major part of ease of assembly and finishing) is said to be excellent also.  I’ll be visiting the factory hopefully in December to review the kit, and then again in February if I decide favorably.  e-mail me in January if you are still interested and serious. Geoff. Geoffrey M. Wood Profile Composites, Inc. Sidney, BC, Canada

Response:

Aloha: I hate to rain on your parade, but I would be careful. I don’t know anything about this company, but I’ve had past dealings with Ron Lueck. He and his late dad were behind the now defunct "Airshark" from their company Freedom Master. Lots of BS, no builders flying. About 30 kits were sold, none flying now. Ron’s sister is a lawyer, so watch out. I flew in the second prototype with Ron, and was amazed at his B.S. He refused to concede that they directly copied and scaled-down the a German seaplane design known as the Equator, from Dr. Poeschel (mit umlatt bitte). Even Ron declared the first Airshark prototype too dangerous to fly, and when Ron and his dad tried to take off from Lake Winnebago (fresh, not salt water), the water flowed over the wing rather than under it. Two years later, Ron waterlooped the second prototype in the same location. (I’ll admit the airframe was strong, as the engine moved in its mounts enough for the prop to hit the turtledeck, but basically now damage from a high speed incident). Ron also got into major legal disputes with the investor in Freedom Master I don’t know anything about the other people involved and they may have Ron on a short leash; Ron does do nice building. I’ll probably hear from Ron or his mouthpiece for posting this info, so screw them in advance. DB

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me anything about the aerocomp kits and company? They look to offer a good plane with a claim for relatively low build times. Does anyone know if the build times are realistic? Are the kits relatively easy to put together? Is the company trustworthy? Etc. Scott Scott; I have been asking the same questions, about CompAir 6.  General responses were yes, the kit is as advertised, and build times are fairly realistic based on semi experienced builders.  Dealing with the company was said to be excellent, and the fit and tolerance of the parts (a major part of ease of assembly and finishing) is said to be excellent also.  I’ll be visiting the factory hopefully in December to review the kit, and then again in February if I decide favorably.  e-mail me in January if you are still interested and serious.

I too was intrigued by the advertised 350 hour build time, so I followed up in this group and by calling the factory.  It seems that the 350 hour time is airframe only – without "even a radio" in the words of Ron Lueck.  I think that when other kit manufacturers spout numbers, they are actually including wiring the panel, putting the engine in, and painting the airplane.  This process increases the Comp Air build times to equal the fast build times of most other kit manufacturers.  In addition, the 350 hours is the build time not of an "average" builder, but of their factory team.  I think the "average" builder would take much longer. The STOL capabilities of the Comp Air series are undoubtedly great. The cruise speeds leave something to be desired. From a composite airframe, I’d expect it to be faster.  The whole thing looks very boxy to me, nothing like the sleek lines you’d expect from a composite airplane.  Pilot reports also indicated that the Comp Air planes were very heavy in roll. I ordered their info pak and the video.  The video was 1 hour and 48 minutes long, but was a real amateur job.  The camera was a handheld, it was jerky and I actually got motion sick watching some parts of it!  I didn’t get a good feeling about the professionalism of the company from the stuff they put out.  This is not to say that the airplanes or the company isn’t any good – just that I didn’t feel that comfortable after reviewing their materials and considering their build time claims. Of all the 4 and more place composite kits I looked at, the ones that came off most professionally were the Velocity, Express and KIS shops (Lancair is out of my price range). I was initially leaning toward the Velocity, and even went for a test flight out at Velocity West.  Nancy Machado was quite nice, but Mark Machado just seemed surly the whole time I was there. Anyway I found the Velocity 173 to be too small (no luggage space) while the XL was pricey!  $12K just for fast build wings, wow. One of the Velocity newsletters stated that Avemco required 500 hours to insure a Velocity (which I don’t have).  Velocity seems like a very reputable and solid shop, so I would recommend them if you want to build one, and can stand the price and insurance requirements. The Express was an interesting plane, and their package came in full color brochures.  It looks like a great plane and one I would love to build one day.  Expensive though.  Both the Velocity XL and Express seem to want large 260 – 300 hp engines.  Also, the fact that this was the third iteration of the company didn’t inspire confidence. For my money, I got the KIS Cruiser from Tri-R Technologies. Rich Trickel is great to talk to, and the amount of airplane you get for your money can’t be beat, IMHO.  I’m biased, of course, but check out the KIS!  4 place, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop, cruise at 160 knots on 180 hp.  And non-exaggerated build time claims. stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Geoff. Geoffrey M. Wood Profile Composites, Inc. Sidney, BC, Canada

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I started to keep my mouth shut here but I think my two cents worth may be informative. I have been going to Sun ‘N Fun for several years now and was there when the first factory assembled Comp Monster arrived. I have been through their display and sat in the planes year after year. I have talked to Ron some, but I have also talked a lot to several builders. First let me address the "square" look. If these planes were supposed to be Glasairs or Lancairs they would be. THese planes are work horses, designed to carry a lot of people and their junk. THey are high lift designs that gain nothing by having rounded corners on the fuselage. The plane is designed the be easy to construct. It looks similar to the planes in this niche– The C-182, Maules, even the Helio or Beaver. Square corners gives you a lot of nooks and cranies in which to stuff that last piece of  camping gear or fishing gear or one more sheet of plywood for that lakeside cabin you are building that has no other access than with your float equiped Comp 6. Now the speed, a plane designed to be mounted on floats that can cruise at 140 to 160 mph is a rare bird indeed. These planes provide good cross-country speed with the comfortably low stall speed. They aren’t everybody’s plane but they fit the bill for a great number of us. Now for building speed. I have talked to a couple of builders that were flying their Comp Monsters in 600 hours– experienced builders but not factory people. Have you ever talked to anyone who has built a Murphy Rebel? Here is a great plane on the same page (at least in my book) as the Comp series. I have found almost all I have talked to have taken over 1500 hrs just to rivet the fuselage together. Glasairs and Lancairs, if you really want fast rather than utility, take 2000 hours plus. Even the builders of the Glastar find it takes a minimum of 1500 hours to fly a basic layout. The Comp Monster can be built in about the same time as a Kitfox or Avid Flyer but you end up with a lot more plane for your time and your money. In my estimation, in the market for which the Comp series is designed, I think they really lock up their niche pretty well. NO, I don’t work for Comp Air.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The STOL capabilities of the Comp Air series are undoubtedly great. The cruise speeds leave something to be desired. From a composite airframe, I’d expect it to be faster.  The whole thing looks very boxy to me, nothing like the sleek lines you’d expect from a composite airplane.< As for the aircraft being boxy, it was intended to be that way. I was there when Ron Lueck started drawing the lines down to build molds. It was intended for ease of assembly for the customer, as well as ease of making the molds and producing the parts. Composite technologies are supposed to make it easy to produce the swoopy shapes required to make it go fast.  The dorsal side of the Comp Air is nicely swoopy, but the sides and bottom are straight, making it look like a box.  But yes, it probably does make it easier for the customer to join the parts up if the sides were straight. <I ordered their info pak and the video.  The video was 1 hour and 48 minutes long, but was a real amateur job.  The camera was a handheld, it was jerky and I actually got motion sick watching some parts of it!  I didn’t get a good feeling about the professionalism of the company from the stuff they put out. I worked for another company producing a different kitplane. Although I can understand from a customers’ standpoint how a video like that can affect your decision, please keep this in mind… Think of how many designs AeroComp has put out now since they started. We never achieved a great video either. Simply put, it is difficult to get together enough pilots, enough aircraft, a good day with acceptable weather for shooting (background light, clouds, etc). And with getting a professional camera person there at $300 for 4 hrs, it can get quite costly very quickly! Not to mention pulling everyone away from shop duties. I realize that it is costly to make a professional video.  But my own reaction to the quality of the Comp Air video was decidedly negative, and I would suspect that some people who would otherwise be enthusiastic prospects for the airplane get turned off by the video also.  I suggest that it may be in the interests of the company to reconsider sending out the video in the existing format. My point, don’t just judge from the surface, there is alot more to it than most realize. If you visit the factory, you won’t find Ron or Steve sitting in a office, like most owners. There out in the shop, right along side there workers…. Jim In my humble opinion, I think Aerocomp probably has a good product, especially in the floatplane category.  The company would do better to put its best foot forward, and the info pak and video that I got from them wasn’t up to snuff.  The exaggerated build time helped get my attention, but it ultimately turned me away when I found out the truth. stan Jim Ratte http://www.recreationalmobility.com/

– Bruce A. Frank, Editor               "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL                                  | Publishing interesting material|                                  | on all aspects of alternative  |                                  | engines and homebuilt aircraft.|                (-o-)/        AIRCRAFT PROJECTS CO.                 ___/           Manufacturing parts & pieces                 /             for homebuilt aircraft,                0     0          TIG welding While trying to find the time to finish mine.

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I started to keep my mouth shut here but

. . . In my estimation, in the market for which the Comp series is designed, I think they really lock up their niche pretty well.

Thank you Bruce – that was refreshing. Carl Stevens

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Snipped a good review  - thanks much for the information, Stan. One of the key factorsfor us in narrowing to Aerocomp CA-6 is payload space (we’ll likely only install 4 seats) and the high wing option for a floatplane capability (we live on the water in BC.)  I fully agree that the video sent in the package was not professional, and I could not watch it all the way through.  I have heard the construction is however and will check this out personally. Design aesthetics are not what I’d have done, but it is one fairly efficient approach to getting the volume we like.  The feedback on build times is worrisome, and in conflict with others, I’ll dig more deeply in my visit and report back. Geoff Geoffrey M. Wood Profile Composites, Inc. Sidney, BC, Canada

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The STOL capabilities of the Comp Air series are undoubtedly great.

The cruise speeds leave something to be desired. From a composite airframe, I’d expect it to be faster.  The whole thing looks very boxy to me, nothing like the sleek lines you’d expect from a composite airplane.< As for the aircraft being boxy, it was intended to be that way. I was there when Ron Lueck started drawing the lines down to build molds. It was intended for ease of assembly for the customer, as well as ease of making the molds and producing the parts. <I ordered their info pak and the video.  The video was 1 hour and 48 minutes long, but was a real amateur job.  The camera was a handheld, it was jerky and I actually got motion sick watching some parts of it!  I didn’t get a good feeling about the professionalism of the company from the stuff they put out. I worked for another company producing a different kitplane. Although I can understand from a customers’ standpoint how a video like that can affect your decision, please keep this in mind… Think of how many designs AeroComp has put out now since they started. We never achieved a great video either. Simply put, it is difficult to get together enough pilots, enough aircraft, a good day with acceptable weather for shooting (background light, clouds, etc). And with getting a professional camera person there at $300 for 4 hrs, it can get quite costly very quickly! Not to mention pulling everyone away from shop duties. My point, don’t just judge from the surface, there is alot more to it than most realize. If you visit the factory, you won’t find Ron or Steve sitting in a office, like most owners. There out in the shop, right along side there workers…. Jim Jim Ratte http://www.recreationalmobility.com/

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Snipped a good review  - thanks much for the information, Stan. One of the key factorsfor us in narrowing to Aerocomp CA-6 is payload space (we’ll likely only install 4 seats) and the high wing option for a floatplane capability (we live on the water in BC.)  I fully agree that the video sent in the package was not professional, and I could not watch it all the way through.  I have heard the construction is however and will check this out personally.

If you want floatplane capabilities, then the choice does get narrowed down really fast to the Comp Air.  None of the other airplanes in my list will float – at least not for very long. From their literature, the payload capability is quite impressive at 1300 lbs.  So the Comp Air should fill your needs in those respects. Design aesthetics are not what I’d have done, but it is one fairly efficient approach to getting the volume we like.  The feedback on build times is worrisome, and in conflict with others, I’ll dig more deeply in my visit and report back.

I guess my problem was that the aircraft just doesn’t look sexy with its boxy structure.  This is strictly a personal feeling. If I was going to build an airplane, I want it to look good! The build time estimates for the Comp Air airplanes are definitely exaggerated.  What they quote aren’t the "average builder" times, but the time for an experienced shop team to build the airframe only.  Put an average joe in there, add in panel wiring time, engine installation, interior, finishing and painting, and I think that your times will be above 1000 hours at the very least. The build time number in Kitplanes was what caught my eye also. If it were true, it would have been a sure fire win.  I mean, a complete airplane in only 350 hours?  Wow! Please report back on what you see at the factory! Geoff Geoffrey M. Wood Profile Composites, Inc. Sidney, BC, Canada

stan

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The STOL capabilities of the Comp Air series are undoubtedly great. The cruise speeds leave something to be desired. From a composite airframe, I’d expect it to be faster.  The whole thing looks very boxy to me, nothing like the sleek lines you’d expect from a composite airplane.< As for the aircraft being boxy, it was intended to be that way. I was there when Ron Lueck started drawing the lines down to build molds. It was intended for ease of assembly for the customer, as well as ease of making the molds and producing the parts.

Composite technologies are supposed to make it easy to produce the swoopy shapes required to make it go fast.  The dorsal side of the Comp Air is nicely swoopy, but the sides and bottom are straight, making it look like a box.  But yes, it probably does make it easier for the customer to join the parts up if the sides were straight.   <I ordered their info pak and the video.  The video was 1 hour and 48 minutes long, but was a real amateur job.  The camera was a handheld, it was jerky and I actually got motion sick watching some parts of it!  I didn’t get a good feeling about the professionalism of the company from the stuff they put out. I worked for another company producing a different kitplane. Although I can understand from a customers’ standpoint how a video like that can affect your decision, please keep this in mind… Think of how many designs AeroComp has put out now since they started. We never achieved a great video either. Simply put, it is difficult to get together enough pilots, enough aircraft, a good day with acceptable weather for shooting (background light, clouds, etc). And with getting a professional camera person there at $300 for 4 hrs, it can get quite costly very quickly! Not to mention pulling everyone away from shop duties.

I realize that it is costly to make a professional video.  But my own reaction to the quality of the Comp Air video was decidedly negative, and I would suspect that some people who would otherwise be enthusiastic prospects for the airplane get turned off by the video also.  I suggest that it may be in the interests of the company to reconsider sending out the video in the existing format. My point, don’t just judge from the surface, there is alot more to it than most realize. If you visit the factory, you won’t find Ron or Steve sitting in a office, like most owners. There out in the shop, right along side there workers…. Jim

In my humble opinion, I think Aerocomp probably has a good product, especially in the floatplane category.  The company would do better to put its best foot forward, and the info pak and video that I got from them wasn’t up to snuff.  The exaggerated build time helped get my attention, but it ultimately turned me away when I found out the truth. stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim Ratte http://www.recreationalmobility.com/

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Question:

just anwser these questens. how do you cast? how do you tell what line to use? how do you real in? how do you cast back out? what bate should i use? hi from payday8887

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just anwser these questens. how do you cast? how do you tell what line to use? how do you real in? how do you cast back out? what bate should i use? hi from payday8887

Please just go here and read up on it: http://www.myhost.com/flyfishing101/ Good luck. PK

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FINALLY, a helpful response to a perfectly innocent question. How can you guys respond so negatively to a beginner in a sport you care about. Lighten up and pitch in with the training or you’ll end up with another idiot on the bank spin casting. Sniping at a guy’s spelling on the internet, that’s a hoot!

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Don’t get too hung up on form.  Develop some basic techniques and then practice.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m searching for a flyfishing desination that offers opportunity for large trout and stuff thats nearby for family to do while i fish. please email me with any idea you may have. thanks, mp Dear mp, You might consider the Jackson, Wyoming area. There are locations for larger trout and plenty of things to do for the rest of the family. — Bruce E. James, Webmaster Jack Dennis Outdoor Shop http://www.jacksonwy.com/jackdennis/

It depends where you want to go.  Ennis MT has a number of family recreation spots available while you fish the Madison River for big brown trout.  The family can visit Virginia City, MT, a turn of the century restoration; Lewis & Clark Caverns, a wonderful cave complex with tours; Yellowstone, which is about an hour away; etc.

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For my money and time, I’d fish the Green downstream from the Flaming Gorge damn in Utah. I fished there in May and July and had my best fishing experience there. Big and plentiful fish. Jerry G.

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i’m searching for a flyfishing desination that offers opportunity for large trout and stuff thats nearby for family to do while i fish. please email me with any idea you may have. thanks, mp

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit very good destinations are always depending on the season. Scotland (U.K.) has some magnificant flyfish rivers. Check out the Spey river in june or july …or the Tweed, Tay and Nith in the autumn. D.de Jong Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for "Drs. D. de Jong" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin:          vcard fn:             "Drs. D. de Jong" n:              ;"Drs. D. de Jong" x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end:            vcard

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Question:

Please don’t feed the this monster of a thread.  Mr. Wieser is just waiting to pounce.  Check out his page, wage legal war with him via. e-mail, but please, we beg of you, don’t get him started on r.b.p… – Bill Herring – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott Weiser Wrote Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them. That is absolutely untrue.  That river gets "navigated" every year by hundreds if not thousands of people.  Stating that boaters are trespassing is like saying the folks who walk down the sidewalk in your front yard are trespassing–blatantly false.  Actually they probably cross the street in front of your house to avoid the possibility of armed conflict with a maniac.  

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Many boaters have a bad habit of trashing the shoreline and than loudly proclaiming their rights to continue to navigate.

I must rise in protest! While it no doubt happens on rare occasion, I have NEVER seen a boater trash a shoreline ( I do not regard foot and butt prints as "trashing", and that’s about all we might leave behind)

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Many boaters have a bad habit of trashing the shoreline

I don’t any who trash the shoreline, matter of fact most I know stay in their boats.  When I talked to a Ranger down on the Ark last year, he said boaters were pretty good, almost all the trash he picked up was fishing trash.  Since this issue came up, I’ve checked places like Sunshine in the Royal Gorge, the scouts and put-in at Gore, and other high traffic areas everytime I’m there, and there has never been anything in the way of trash. Matter of fact I challenge you or anyone to show me a place that is dominated by boaters, and is trashed out (at least in Colorado). –Chris

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While land owners may own the land and riparian rights to the waters bottom, they do not in fact, own the water itself and I’m almost positive that any river can be "navigated" through private property.  It would certainly be nice to have the owners permission to avoid any misunderstandings and asking in advance could only help relations between the land owner and boaters.  Regardless of the legal issue here, I think I’d be inclined to opt for not trespassing if that’s what the land owner wished.  I can imagine if there was a pristine river running across my land I’d not want a bunch of canoes and kayaks traversing it every day. Many boaters have a bad habit of trashing the shoreline and than loudly proclaiming their rights to continue to navigate.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott Weiser Wrote Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them. That is absolutely untrue.  That river gets "navigated" every year by hundreds if not thousands of people.  Stating that boaters are trespassing is like saying the folks who walk down the sidewalk in your front yard are trespassing–blatantly false.  Actually they probably cross the street in front of your house to avoid the possibility of armed conflict with a maniac.   tdq

Yesssss!  And SET the hook!  Now, let the little bugger run till he tires and reel him in… Sorry, you are quite wrong.  Floating through private property in Colorado without the permission of the landowner is a criminal trespass.  Just because people get away with it doesn’t make it legal. You might want to check out my website for a discussion of this issue. http://spot.Colorado.EDU/~weisers I guess it’s time for yet another round of this ongoing discussion.   Let the games begin! — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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. . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?

Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks. — Richard Culpeper "Hour after hour, day after day, far from sight of shore, We laughed and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, Wanting never to return."         — Kimosippi ‘95 —

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. . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette? Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks. — Richard Culpeper "Hour after hour, day after day, far from sight of shore, We laughed and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, Wanting never to return."         — Kimosippi ‘95 —

Paddlers usually aren’t trespassing along stream banks!!!  They are merely in transit from the put-in to the take-out!! terry dq

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   Hi everyone, This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!   I understand that the river is for everyone, and because of that I don’t cast when kayakers are around.  But I’d like to think they could show the same type of courtesy by moving through the area slowly and quietly.

Tom Visnius had a nice take on this issue as part of a story about a high-water descent of the Pigeon River Dries (NC).  The story was printed first in Messing About, the newsletter of the Western Carolina Paddlers.  Tom has since placed it in his homepage.  Read it at http:\www.cs.unca.edu/~johnsonk/club/pigeon.html. — Chris The relevant passage (by Tom Visnius): Phil and I were the only kayakers hanging out at the campground for a little while. As we waited, I asked a fly-fisherman about an etiquette issue that had been bothering me since my trip down Cataloochee Creek. On creeks in the Park, there’s not a lot of room for both hunter and boater, so it is crucial to communicate to each other how you would like to commingle. Does a boater give the fisher a wide berth, thereby floating directly over the trout that he has been sneaking up on? Or does a boater float right next to the fisher’s knees and risk an assault from a surprised sportsman? This result is not unlikely, so regardless of your right-of-way philosophy, it is worth noting that there are many fishermen who visit Smoky Mountain National Park, and boaters should attempt to communicate with them. Then proceed with caution. The fellow I talked to preferred the idea of boaters paddling close to him so as not to spook the trout.

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I fished alot on the Arkansas and Animas river in Colorado.  The Animas is big enough that if your standing a few feet from one shore the rafter can go to the other side.  Most of the time I am nymphing fairly close to where I’m standing.  In the Arkansas case, its a little narrower and sometimes, if I notice them soon enough, I will step out of the water and let the kyaker or rafter float right over, or better yet to the shore side, of where I was standing. They are usually very willing to remove their feet and oars from the water as they pass by.  Most of them are quite willing to accomodate my directions if the water depth is OK. But you run into jerks in any endeavor. I wouldn’t let it ruin my day.   When it does happen I do get a little agitated and probably verbalize it but I try not to let it linger. Bill A.

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People kayak the Big South occasionally, but they have keepers who take them back to the Home directly from the takeout so that they won’t be a danger to society.

I resemble…I mean resent that remark…. –Chris

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette? Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks. — Richard Culpeper "Hour after hour, day after day, far from sight of shore, We laughed and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, Wanting never to return."         — Kimosippi ‘95 — Paddlers usually aren’t trespassing along stream banks!!!  They are merely in transit from the put-in to the take-out!! terry dq

Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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Scott, Do us all a big favor and go crawl back under the rock you’ve been hiding under (or was that bloated mass you were cowering under your mother?). Your recent absence from this newsgroup has been wonderful. If you really were stupid enough to cast toward and snag someone (and from your posts, it seems likely you are), you would be entirely deserving of the beating your pathetic corpse received.

So sorry, I’ll try to interject more often, it certainly spices things up doesn’t it. Like I said, civil is as civil does. I just cast, if you happen to be in the way, too damned bad, you had plenty of time to see where I was fishing and avoid it, or at least do the polite thing and pass quietly behind me so as not to put the fish down for a half hour by your antics. If you act like a jerk, you get treated like a jerk.   — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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. . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette? Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks.

Er, actually, you are probably trespassing when you are *in* the river, boaters and fisherpersons alike, unless you are on Forest Service land or other public land. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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Scott Weiser Wrote Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them.

That is absolutely untrue.  That river gets "navigated" every year by hundreds if not thousands of people.  Stating that boaters are trespassing is like saying the folks who walk down the sidewalk in your front yard are trespassing–blatantly false.  Actually they probably cross the street in front of your house to avoid the possibility of armed conflict with a maniac.   tdq

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: DirecPC   Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: host-37.customer.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Hi everyone, This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!   I understand that the river is for everyone, and because of that I don’t cast when kayakers are around.  But I’d like to think they could show the same type of courtesy by moving through the area slowly and quietly. I guess the easy solution to my problem is to find a section of the river that is kayaker/rafter free.  Does anyone know of any such section of the Poudre?  How about flyfishing only sections and/or catch and release sections? Any help/comments appreciated!  Thanks for reading this. Mike Stephens

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment. Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?  

I, fortunately, have had better experiences than this, being both a fisherman and a paddler on a river at different times. I think most fishermen & paddlers can peacefully co-exist most of the time. The biggest thing paddlers have to remember is that fish like to hang out in eddies also. Fortunately though, most good paddling areas are too strong to fish effectively. Paddle On… -Tom McIntire

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?  

(snip) It sucks. If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   (snip) It sucks. If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range. Scott Weiser

I see the hugely entertaining Mr. Wieser has once again blessed our humble piece of bandwidth with his presence. The above sounds like a great idea.  Someone is rude or comes too close, so you try to put a hook in them.  A very civil solution.  Or you could just "shoot to wound".  That’ll teach ‘em! – Bill Herring "Can’t we just all get along?" – Rodney King

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Can anyone tell me if they are happy with Nautiraid? I am thinking of a folding boat purchase but have not heard much about Nautiraid.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   (snip) It sucks. If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range. Scott Weiser I see the hugely entertaining Mr. Wieser has once again blessed our humble piece of bandwidth with his presence. The above sounds like a great idea.  Someone is rude or comes too close, so you try to put a hook in them.  A very civil solution.  Or you could just "shoot to wound".  That’ll teach ‘em!

Hey, *some* people are so dense they require operant conditioning and aversion therapy to get the message. Civil is as civil does. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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What is a #10 Wooly Bugger?  Sounds like what my brother’s girlfriend used to call his… Whoops!  Sorry, gotta get back to work… Ed

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers! My personal opinion is that you should discreetly suggest that they move on…try a subtle suggestion… "GET THE HELL OUTTA MY DRIFT YOU YUPPIE BASTARD OR I’LL CREASE YOUR NOODLE" (Stolen without permission from "Fear of Flyfishing"). TimW (Only kidding, violence is not a good suggestion…now, letting the air out of the tires of their shuttle vehicle, THAT can be VERY effective and satisfying).

My thoughts exactly!  I’ve  had similar problems lately on the small river I fish in southwestern Michigan.  It’s quite popular with tubers.   Right now, the window of opportunity for a flyfisherman is limited to approx. a half hour to an hour before dark.  I was out on Sunday and didn’t see a soul until just before dark.  Guess what?  I didn’t see any other fisherman but two separate groups of tubers floated by just as the fish were getting active.  While on the of the tubers was courteous enough to ask where I was fishing, his partner ignored me and floated right over a rising fish.  Then, the second group floated by a few minutes later and showed no consideration whatsoever.  There’s no way they could have finished their float trip by dark.  They have all damn day to float yet they choose to recreate at dusk showing no respect for anyone else.  It puts evil thoughts in your mind.  Of course, the obligatory floatilla of bobbing beer cans followed in close pursuit. BFisher

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Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!

My personal opinion is that you should discreetly suggest that they move on…try a subtle suggestion… "GET THE HELL OUTTA MY DRIFT YOU YUPPIE BASTARD OR I’LL CREASE YOUR NOODLE" (Stolen without permission from "Fear of Flyfishing"). TimW (Only kidding, violence is not a good suggestion…now, letting the air out of the tires of their shuttle vehicle, THAT can be VERY effective and satisfying).

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(snip) If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range.

Scott, Do us all a big favor and go crawl back under the rock you’ve been hiding under (or was that bloated mass you were cowering under your mother?). Your recent absence from this newsgroup has been wonderful. If you really were stupid enough to cast toward and snag someone (and from your posts, it seems likely you are), you would be entirely deserving of the beating your pathetic corpse received. Regards, Andy The opinions expressed above are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!   I understand that the river is for everyone, and because of that I don’t cast when kayakers are around.  But I’d like to think they could show the same type of courtesy by moving through the area slowly and quietly. I guess the easy solution to my problem is to find a section of the river that is kayaker/rafter free.  Does anyone know of any such section of the Poudre?  How about flyfishing only sections and/or catch and release sections?

I kayak sections of the Poudre below the Narrows regularly.  The water has indeed come down enough so that fishermen (and women) are starting to appear on sections that boaters use.  Earlier in the season, these sections are not really fishable, and much of it still cannot be waded. Commercial rafters on the Poudre usually don’t conflict with fisherpeople because they don’t eddy out very often.  They sail on by _everything_, and to give their customers the most exciting ride, they tend to look for the fastest current and the biggest waves, which will take them away from fisherpeople.  This search for excitement, however, sometimes causes inexperienced guides to flip rafts on otherwise inoccuous sections of the river, and they have been known to literally run over kayakers.  We generally sit in the eddies as they go by because of this. Reasonable kayakers usually stay away from fisherpeople.  The river, after all, is to be shared, and most kayakers do their playing in territory which is not very good for fishing.  Several possiblities for conflict on the Poudre do arise, however: 1.  The Filter Plant run has good holding and wading water and is quite     fishable.  Novice kayakers still use it, though, and they may not     yet be properly "socialized." 2.  The well-known pop-up hole on the Bridges run has an eddy immediately     below it where kayakers wait their turn to attempt enders.  I have     heard that a couple of fishermen have decided that they need to fish     that particular eddy, and they will attempt to drive kayakers away.     Sometimes they will appear when kayakers are there and demand that     they leave.  I have not personally observed this behavior. 3.  I encountered a fisherman at the bottom of PineView Falls who was     casting into an eddy on the far side of the river.  The area is not     wadeable, although the eddy may have held some fish.  The river is     narrow at that point, so the cast was easy, but the presence of his     line all the way across the river created a problem for any kayak or     raft running PineView. Other possibilities for conflict exist anywhere there is an eddy.  By the way, when communicating with fisherpeople, kayakers should be aware that they may refer to an eddy as a "hole," a term which has a different meaning for us! As for good fishing, a couple of places come to mind.  As I mentioned, much of the Filter Plant run is pretty good, and has reduced kayak traffic when the water is low.  Keep #1 above in mind, however.  What traffic there is may be irritating because they don’t know any better. The section above the low bridge below Rustic is rumored to be excellent trout water, and the flatwater curves below the fish hatchery (the Indian Meadows area) are well-known for providing excellent fishing. Indian Meadows is wild trout water, with special restrictions on what you can keep.  No problem for catch-and-release. The Big South fork has some nice fishing water about half a mile from the highway.  People kayak the Big South occasionally, but they have keepers who take them back to the Home directly from the takeout so that they won’t be a danger to society.      John Cooley

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Question:

: I’ve tried several times to subscribe to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying : through AOL’s expert add – I get a message telling me this group is : "invalid"  Any suggestions would be appreciated. Wait.   the group is not officially formed yet. Check elsewhere in the group for RESULTS: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying vote Jon Porter

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I’ve tried several times to subscribe to rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying through AOL’s expert add – I get a message telling me this group is "invalid"  Any suggestions would be appreciated. Bill Battles

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Question:

Would like to know some effective patterns for Northern Pike.  Will be fishing Gods Lake in Manatoba Canada in mid August.

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There is an excellent book on the subject that also discusses multiple patterns.  "PIKE on the FLY" by Barry Reynolds and John Berryman.  If your local fly shop doesn’t carry it Wilderness Adventures Sporting Books does carry them at $16.00.  1-800-925-3339 or P.O. Box 1410, Bozeman, M.T. 59771, that is where I got Mine.  My favorite pattern is Bunny Bug a 3/0 Mustad #34007 with a 25-pound hard mono weed guard, Black thread, tail-4" long black rabbit strip topped with a few strands of black Krystal Flash, butt-White or Yellow marabou, body-Black rabbit strip 6" long palmered to 1/4 " of the eye.  Decievers in Red/White or Black/White are also great.  I use Orvis wire leaders on the above.   The book shop above also has an  great video by Berry Reynolds that makes you want to catch a plane up to Northern Sask!  Good Luck

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Jason Chartrand here, fly-fishing for pike is the BEST (I wish to say only, but it isn’t) way to go. Some really fun flies to try are anything that floats (fur mice, poppers, etc . . . ).  Actually seeing the hit is really exciting.  But honestly, I don’t get much success this way. Nearly any concoction that you can dream up could work, but my favorite is tied like this:         1/0 (2/0) short shank salt water hook         gold tinsel ribbing, or silver         Krystal flash: yellow, green, orange, mixed together, tied in at the         head in buck tail fashion.         Heavy black thread This sounds too simple, but it works great!!  

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: Would like to know some effective patterns for Northern Pike.  

Try a RoadKill Streamer!  Thread a regular-length-hook  (of suitable size) several times through the rear end of a  4" – 8" strip of fox or rabbit fur. Then tie on a 20lb test  shock tippet, to the eye of the hook. Make an overhand knot  (with the shock tippet) around the front end of the fur,  and then make a perfection loop in the shock tippet. Put split  shot on the tippet, at the front end of the fly. That’s it,  although you can knot some Flashabou or whatever in the  overhand knot, as you make it. Other variations include  a second hook at the front, which allows lashing the  front end of the fur (with fly tying thread) to the front hook.  Smaller versions of this fly make good brown trout flies  during fall spawning. Friends of mine have used RoadKills with  good success for Pike and Smallmouth bass in Quebec.     —

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Question:

I was in Indonesia and Thailand two years ago but didn’t bring my rod. Going back for my honeymoon…any advice?   I did lots of snorkeling but looking for recommendations…flies, places. Will trade for good fishing stories and east coast goodies. Dan Foster Dan Foster

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I was in Indonesia and Thailand two years ago but didn’t bring my rod. Going back for my honeymoon…any advice?  

Yeah, don’t forget your rod…. — | PO Box 1510      | MCI:   mnewman (333-1196) | Hell is   | | Saipan MP 96950  | Phone: +(670)234-7726     | Saipan?   | | Mariana Islands  | FAX:   +(670)234-3022     |           |

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