Question:
Hi everyone, just thought I’d introduce myself. I’ve been lurking for a while and this group seems to be a pretty good bunch of guys (and gals). I’ve learned quite a bit. I’m a newbie fly fisherman (only been out once in horrible windy conditions). I’ll be fishing the Upper Deerfield this weekend. Does anyone familiar with the river have any suggestions regarding fly selection this time of year, useful tips, etc. that might enable a poor newbie to catch a few trout? I’m aware of the dam, water levels, etc. I was thinking of getting a guide for a day, but it’s kind of expensive. TYIA for the help, and I hope to contribute to the group in the future. Tom Zebrowski
Greetings, Tom. I’ve not fished the area, but there’s a pretty decent map and hatch information at this website: http://tinyurl.com/20mq According to this information, it looks like you should be fishing midge imitations #20 or smaller. I’ve had a bit of success lately in Southern Mass. with small, white spinner patterns and Griffiths Gnat for dry flies, and #16 and smaller nymphs. — TL, Tim
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Hi George, thanks for the welcome. I’ll be fishing the two catch and release areas below the Fife Brook Dam. I should have been more specific. Are you familiar with that area? Regards, Tom
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Welcome to the group, Tom. If , by Upper Deerfield, you mean the Vermont section below Searsburg Dam, I have never fished it, so I can’t be of much help. I only know a few people who have fished that area, and they regarded it as overrated. Good luck, anyway, and please submit a TR. George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age." —- J.W Muller
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Hi everyone, just thought I’d introduce myself. I’ve been lurking for a while and this group seems to be a pretty good bunch of guys (and gals). I’ve learned quite a bit. I’m a newbie fly fisherman (only been out once in horrible windy conditions). I’ll be fishing the Upper Deerfield this weekend. Does anyone familiar with the river have any suggestions regarding fly selection this time of year, useful tips, etc. that might enable a poor newbie to catch a few trout? I’m aware of the dam, water levels, etc. I was thinking of getting a guide for a day, but it’s kind of expensive. TYIA for the help, and I hope to contribute to the group in the future. Tom Zebrowski
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Question:
Care to share your hobbies?
Large format B&W photography 4-Season camping Fly fishing Hunting Trapping Botony Geology Thomas Vodacek Stagnant Brewery Brewing Since 1982
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Care to share your hobbies? Large format B&W photography 4-Season camping Fly fishing Hunting Trapping Botony Geology Thomas Vodacek Stagnant Brewery Brewing Since 1982 Street Rodding and motorcycle riding.
collecting trains and cooking. Brewing since1995
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Care to share your hobbies?
Brewing’s about it anymore, and I don’t get as much time to do that as I’d like. I used to love photography, especially sports photography. I used to go to hockey games alot and take pictures of the players. I live in Philadelphia. I have an autographed 8 x 10 that I took of Flyers goalie Pelle Lindbergh that may actually be the very last autograph he ever signed before he died. I wish I could prove it. I caught him outside the stadium right after the last game he played, which was against Washington. He signed the picture, then I watched him get in his car, and I heard the next morning he was dead. I also have lots of old hockey, baseball, and football cards. Aside from beer, I also make some wine, but mostly just from kits. I like to cook, and make bread. Actually made bread before I made beer. Would like to try making cheese at some point. It all seems to go toghether. I always wanted to learn to make desserts, like cakes and stuff. Bill
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collecting trains and cooking. Brewing since1995
Just *do* you cook a train? :0) I’m hoping to swing by Valley Park, MO on this summer’s vacation to see the "Whittle Shortline" folks and their wooden trains. My son’s not old enough for highly scaled N gauge yet.
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Care to share your hobbies?
Computers & networking Photography Competitive pistol and rifle shooting Reloading for pistol and rifle Cooking Read a lot Racquetball Billiards/Pool Politics Kingfisher NRA-ILA, GOA, JPFO, SAF, CCRKBA, COA, LSAS, LEAA. Money is a weapon. When guns are outlawed, politicians will still have armed bodyguards. It’s not who votes that counts; it’s who counts the votes.
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Let’s see now….. 1. Home brewing……Oooorah! 2. RC model building (and flying). 3. Keeping planted aquariums. 4. Gardening. 5. Woodworking….or as SWMBO calls it….screwing around in the garage. Dan
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Pinball machines Radio Controlled aircraft Robotics Hunting Fishing Camping while hunting/fishing Restoring a 1968 VW God, I need to trim my hobbies down a bit! Darren Brewing since 1995
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Care to share your hobbies?
Swimming Reading Writing Photography Driving my Miata Cooking Gardening Cat — The Cat House http://www.feline.org Phone+Fax: 877.278.8075
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Care to share your hobbies?
Computers Brewing Biology & Genetics in general Physics Science Fiction & Fantasy Classical Music Photography — Fred Stone
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Care to share your hobbies?
Child care and graduate school. Phil
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Tinkering with computers, and collecting obscure (mostly jazz/rock) CDs. And I will be adding meadmaking to the list any day now! —
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Care to share your hobbies?
Collecting Military Vehicles (M35A2 Deuce-and-a-half, and a Hummer) Ham Radio Cooking — Rich Weinkauf, N8QLT Cruise Missile Coordinates: 42d 28.05′N 083d 22.87′W HummerID 97.5 Fly Yellow Wagon 1971 Kaiser M35A2 ** MVPA #20486 Load Warrior Website http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/Terminus/loadwarrior/ M35 Cool Stuff Site http://www.highprofilevehicles.com
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Care to share your hobbies?
Member of the SCA (renaissance re-enactment) Leatherwork Digital photography candle/perfume/balm making (I seriously dislike the aromatherapy tag) Winemaking
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Question:
[...] The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_.
Not quite true. There is also Salmo salar, the atlantic salmon which is actually a trout (at least the last time I looked – it may have been reclassified since…) Regards, John — Dr. John Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility
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<snip a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, <snip
I have caught and also seen photographs of brown trout having white (or at least cream-colored) leading edges on some of their fins. I don’t recall seeing this on the pectoral fins. August K. Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk
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Brook trout are charr, not trout — James R. Babb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? thanks.
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[...] The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_. Not quite true. There is also Salmo salar, the atlantic salmon which is actually a trout (at least the last time I looked – it may have been reclassified since…) Regards, John — Dr. John Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility
To every one who is watching this thread: Do you think the fish know this? I hope the brookie’s ego doesn’t get bruised. So let me get this: some trout and salmon are really char, but there is a salmon that is really a trout. White wine from red grapes is called blush, Tomatoes are fruit, but ketchup is a vegetable, peanuts aren’t nuts or peas. We park in a driveway and drive on a parkway. Class dismissed! all kidding aside, thanks for the info, this is why NG’s are here so we can learn something and have some fun at it.
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I note Robert that you are from Maine and commented on brook trout. I am an outdoors columnist in Canada, and am curious about two subspecies of rare trout. One I believe exists in Maine. Do you have any info. on this? I ask because I am interested in trout and enjoy catching (primarily release most) unusual or rare strains.
Is it safe to presume that you’re referring to Blueback trout? Actuaally another artic char subspecies – and a rare if not endangered one, for sure. Or perhaps the Sunapee Golden trout (actually Yet Another Rare Artic Char – Salvilinus alpinus oquassa)? btw: Being a neighbor to our north, are you familiar with the Red Trout – which is native to Quebec – and another member of the Salvilinus alpinus group? I believe all three of these fish are described as "relics" today… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp. Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus Maynard, Massachusetts < < Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited" < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely to be shared by my employer, etc…
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Thanks, John, for starting such an interesting thread on the truth about Brookies… I’d like to suggest that everyone interested in the origins, history, genetic makeup of our favorite fish, read a new book by ichthyologist Nick Karas entitled, appropriately, BROOK TROUT. It is being published by Lyons & Burford and should be in stores in late March/early April. Email me if you have any questions… Krista
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If Brookies aren’t trout, they’re doing a damn fine imitation. Anglerboy
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The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins.
So do some strains of rainbows. Though not the hatchery trout I see. John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS
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Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? thanks.
Brookies aren’t trout … they’re char.
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their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins. -Burton
In Scotland our native Arctic Char have the beautiful white outline too. Just Pete Marrow work: http://www.gsrg.nmh.ac.uk/ play: http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/scottish_ff_faq.htm
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In article Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
Systematic taxonomists classify the fish we know as "brook trout" as belonging to the genus _Salvelinus_ (the chars) and not _Salmo_ (the trouts). The "lake trout" is also a char, but for some reason the popular name of the "Arctic char" (_Salvelinus alpinus_) recognizes that this fish is indeed a char. There are minor differences between chars and trouts, which are usually of interest only to fisheries scientists. The clearest visible difference between chars and trouts is that char have lighter-colored spots on a darker-background body, while trout have dark spots on a lighter body. Scientific names and classifications shift and change; you probably know that the rainbow trout, long considered a true trout (_Salmo_) was reclassified several years ago and placed among the Pacific salmon (_Oncorhyncus_). But this reclassification didn’t cause rainbow trout to immediately die after spawning, like all their brethren in _Oncorhynchus_. A wild, native brook trout is a wonderful creature, no matter what name we give it. Woods Hole, MA USA
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Brook trout are not true trouts! They are a member of the char family so they are actually the small cousins of lake trout, artic char and dolly varden. But enough of genetic, they’re great pan fried! Leif da Lucky
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I note Robert that you are from Maine and commented on brook trout. I am an outdoors columnist in Canada, and am curious about two subspecies of rare trout. One I believe exists in Maine. Do you have any info. on this? I ask because I am interested in trout and enjoy catching (primarily release most) unusual or rare strains. Tight Lines Don Stokes Outdoors Columnist
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Systematic taxonomists classify the fish we know as "brook trout" as belonging to the genus _Salvelinus_ (the chars) and not _Salmo_ (the trouts). The "lake trout" is also a char, but for some reason the popular name of the "Arctic char" (_Salvelinus alpinus_) recognizes that this fish is indeed a char. There are minor differences between chars and trouts, which are usually of interest only to fisheries scientists. The clearest visible difference between chars and trouts is that char have lighter-colored spots on a darker-background body, while trout have dark spots on a lighter body. Scientific names and classifications shift and change; you probably know that the rainbow trout, long considered a true trout (_Salmo_) was reclassified several years ago and placed among the Pacific salmon (_Oncorhyncus_). But this reclassification didn’t cause rainbow trout to immediately die after spawning, like all their brethren in _Oncorhynchus_. A wild, native brook trout is a wonderful creature, no matter what name we give it. Woods Hole, MA USA
Hi Bob Great bit of information. I hope you don’t mind if I save it for future reference. Good Tying &…. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html
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: : Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried : to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have : an opinion on this? : : thanks. : We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char. Char are : distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. I believe they real difference is in the dentition. Char have teeth on their tongues and true trout (salmo) don’t. At least I believe thats where the teeth differ. — Isaac(Ike) B. Wilder That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
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: John, : Best to concede early on this one. Brook trout are not truly trout, but : rather char. All fall under the family heading of salmonid and then brook : trout fall in the salvelinus genus, rainbows in the oncorhynchus genus and When did rainbows get reclassified? I would find placing them in the oncorhyncus genus very difficult. Their physiology is very differnt as well as physical characteristics. Was this done based on molecular genetics? : browns in the salmo genus. The practical distinction is that char have : light spots on a dark background. There are skull structure differences. : Char scales are especially tiny in comparison as well. Hope this helps. : James Ehlers : Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service : Underhill, VT — Isaac(Ike) B. Wilder That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried : to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have : an opinion on this? : : thanks. : We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char. Char are : distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. I believe they real difference is in the dentition. Char have teeth on their tongues and true trout (salmo) don’t. At least I believe that’s where the teeth differ.
Colour is more visible, but teeth are more reliable. Char (or equally correctly charr) have only a few teeth on the front of the vomer (broadly speaking the palate), and trout have a full set of vomerine teeth. Generally, charr have light spots, and trout have dark spots. I owe these tidbits to Calabi’s "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Fly-Fishing."
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In article Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
Technically, your friend is right. The brook trout is a char, genus -salvelinus- . The other members of this genus are the lake trout, dolly varden, bull trout, arctic char, and European char. The whole issue of what’s a true trout has recently been stirred up by biologists who have reclassified the rainbow, cutthroat, and golden trout into the genus _oncorrhyncus_ with the Pacific salmon (chinook, coho, chum, et al). The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_. On the other hand, who cares? The members of the genera salvelinus, salmo, and oncorrhyncus resemble each other closely in general morphology. If common usage makes brookies, lakers, dollies, bulls, ‘bows, cutts, and brownies all trout, that’s fine with me. –Roger
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* The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_. Actually, the Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar, also belongs to the same genus as the brown trout. Just thought I’d add a little more confusion to everyone’s day. el coyotero
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. Cheers TB
//snip TGB, you’re right regarding Brook trout and lake trout belonging to the char family (salvelinus). Other north american char are bull trout, dolly varden, sunapee, siscowet and – arctic char. All char species have light spots and light bands on their bottom fins; the coloration is more or less pronounced and varies from white (e.g. arctic char) to pale pink (e.g. dolly varden) and yellowish (e.g. lake trout), depending on the species. /Tord
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Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?
John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. Cheers TB The workings of great institutions is mainly the result of a vast mass of routine, petty malice, self-interest, carelessness, and sheer mistake. Only a residual fraction is thought." Santayana
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing.
The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins. -Burton
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Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? thanks.
We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char. Char are distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. -Burton
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Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? thanks.
Response:
John, Best to concede early on this one. Brook trout are not truly trout, but rather char. All fall under the family heading of salmonid and then brook trout fall in the salvelinus genus, rainbows in the oncorhynchus genus and browns in the salmo genus. The practical distinction is that char have light spots on a dark background. There are skull structure differences. Char scales are especially tiny in comparison as well. Hope this helps. James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Underhill, VT
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Question:
Anyone been fishing yet this year in the Catskills? I will be coming home from college in early May and would like some info on conditions, ect… I particularly like fishing the smaller streams. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks ERIC
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Anyone been fishing yet this year in the Catskills? I will be coming home from college in early May and would like some info on conditions, ect… I particularly like fishing the smaller streams. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks ERIC
Eric, Spent the weekend up at the Beaverkill. The Great Flood scoured the river severely, creating deep holes where there were none before, and dumping big boulders where you can be sure to trip and fall. Some say most of the fish were swept out of the Willowemoc and Beaverkill into the main Delaware. But others say the fish&game people located 38 out of 39 big browns fitted with radio antennas in much the same places they were before the flood. Others are equally concerned about the insect population. The riverbed was churned up pretty badly. Half of Roscoe campsite, just below Junction Pool, was inundated with muddy waters that left a foot of river sand. I checked a few rocks at Junction Pool and found nymphs under almost every rock at the edges of the riffles. Between the flood and the droughts of the past few years, it would be a pleasant surprise if we saw great hatches this season. So far, I’ve seen a few early stoneflies, small caddis and some tiny Olives. Nothing to get excited or depressed about. Great Flood, was done in by a spin fisherman on the Willowemoc. It won the opening day honors on April 1st. And the state trucks were spottted stocking up and down the Beaverkill on Monday, April 22nd. As for the weekend fishing, Mary Dette described it as slow in her daily reports, which she said was to be expected in April. I met a lot of fishermen on the river, which is still running high, and very few of them had caught a single fish. I don’t want to be caught telling fish stories, but I caught a half dozen trout Friday evening on a #12 Hendrickson (yup!) and another dozen late Monday afternoon on a variety od #16 nymphs. None of them really count. They were all in an innocent looking eddy, where they were dumped by fish&game folk, or where they sought cover from the heavy water. All were the size of stocked fish, and included a couple of rainbows. One guide told me all of them were holdovers, and that rainbows, because of whirling disease, weren’t being stocked. (I listen but I don’t always believe.) Naturally, I won’t say where I caught all these trout. Anyhow, they aren’t there any longer. Every trout I caught was unceremoniously dumped into the fast riffles in the main river. It may be a little tougher in the fast lane, but they’ll have a better of escaping the two-legged, meat-loving predators. Hell, I want to enjoy those trout all season! The highlight of the weekend was the fly tying by Ted Patlen at the Catskill Fly Fishing Center & Museum. I think he tied one of everything, and had a solution to most of my fly-tying problems. He ties flies that catch fish, as well as those that catch anglers. Ted works at Ramsey Outdoors in Paramus, NJ.
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