Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes It looks, from the pictures in the Old Town catalogue as if the pack may have a  slightly shallower and more curved hull – do you think this would make much difference over the 119k? (stability, or dryness?) If you can find them both on display, take a close look at them. The cross section line drawing in the catalog for the Pack looks more like the actual profile of the 119K in real life. The bottom of the 119 isn’t nearly as flat as the catalog line drawing would suggest; it’s more like a shallow-V, with a nice curve into the bilges. The 119 should be slightly dryer as it is a couple of inches deeper in the center, bow, and stern, has a bit more flare on the sides, and has a slightly higher load rating (although I don’t think I would try to put that much into one!). Either would likely be good choice for your intended use. Good luck! Bob

Thanks for your help, Bob. I think I may go for the 119. Roger —

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 I have had my "pack" for about 3 years now and have taken it from boundary waters to the everglades. Its a great little canoe…pretty stable until the water gets about 1/2-1 foot chop with hefty breeze then it gets dicey & youll want a heavier craft…easy to portage, nice & light…not a speed demon but it’ll get ya there..I prefer a kayak paddle, better tracking..hardly draws any water with my 190 lbs in it…only downside is it needs some kind of skid plate to combat abrasion on the bottoms bow & aft. I wouldnt trade it for anything except maybe a ceder strip cajun piroque Before you buy.

Response:

It looks, from the pictures in the Old Town catalogue as if the pack may have a  slightly shallower and more curved hull – do you think this would make much difference over the 119k? (stability, or dryness?)

        Again, never been inthe 119k, but the Pack is pretty damned stable in my opinion. Any way, tgb, your description of your use of the pack sounds a very pleasant way to spend a day!

        Yeah, from little trout lake to trout lake. But want to add that this is often done while on week or so solo trips, and that little canoe has handled all my gear for same. (Generally consisting of one large

Question:

Traditional wet flies were fished relatively shallow.  This was because it was difficult to get them to sink very far. This is no longer a problem, and you can fish them at any depth. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film? thanks, Bob

Response:

Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film?

Yes.   They can also be fished bouncing along the surface on a dropper. There is no "wrong" way to fish them. With the exception of a resurgence in the popularity of wet hackles, traditional wet flies are not very popular. Once in a great while I’ll run into an "old timer" fishing a trio of woven "Mite" flies. Willi

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Which can be just the perfect reason to try them. Normally I hardly follow the patterns as described in books, but I make an exception for some traditionals. I just love tying and fishing a Peter Ross or Alexandra, or an Invicta for that matter. For me there’s something special in using these old patterns. Whenever I tie one on, I can’t help but think of some guy a hundred odd years back, pondering over his flywallet and making the same choice as I just did. And you know what? They still work. Peter Ross has helped me out more than once, the only reason I didn’t tie them for the swap is that they take too much time (for me, that is) to make two dozen of them. Herman

<snip With the exception of a resurgence in the popularity of wet hackles, traditional wet flies are not very popular. Once in a great while I’ll run into an "old timer" fishing a trio of woven "Mite" flies. Willi

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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– I just love tying and fishing a Peter Ross or Alexandra, or an Invicta for that matter. For me there’s something special in using these old patterns. Whenever I tie one on, I can’t help but think of some guy a hundred odd years back, pondering over his flywallet and making the same choice as I just did. And you know what? They still work. Peter Ross has helped me out more than once, the only reason I didn’t tie them for the swap is that they take too much time (for me, that is) to make two dozen of them.

I know just what you mean Herman. I remember the first time I was shown a fly box full of traditional wet flies: Alexandras, Peter Rosses, Butchers, Mallards & Claret and Dunkelds, etc. (I had never seen jungle cock before). That was over 35 years ago, but I still love the look of them and give them a wetting once in a while. It’s amazing how often an old traditional will sometimes deliver, when I (and others) am struggling with more modern patterns. I like the Peter Ross, too, but there is a curious thing here: the late, great, Dick Walker claimed he had never (try as he might) caught a fish on one. I’ve had stacks of fish on it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all. There’s also another side to this, of course. Two fishermen, A and B: A: ‘Any luck?’ B: ‘Yes, but they’re selective. Only take small bwo imitions.’ A: ‘What are you using?’ B: ‘Small bwo imitations. Never fish anything else around here..’ In other words, you catch fish with the fly you fish with, not with the flies in the box. If someone tells me some patterns don’t work, I always want to know if he/she ever really tried it. But then again, who am I to doubt Dick Walker.. Herman

<snip I like the Peter Ross, too, but there is a curious thing here: the late, great, Dick Walker claimed he had never (try as he might) caught a fish on one. I’ve had stacks of fish on it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

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Two fishermen, A and B: A: ‘Any luck?’ B: ‘Yes, but they’re selective. Only take small bwo imitions.’ A: ‘What are you using?’ B: ‘Small bwo imitations. Never fish anything else around here..’

LOL Yes, I know what you mean! These things can be self-fulfilling. I was talking to Moc Morgan a few years ago. He was telling me that, at one time, the group of waters he wrote reports on for a fishing magazine had 85% of ALL trout caught on one pattern – the ‘Cat’s Whisker’. Sure, it’s one of the deadliest lures ever invented for rainbow trout, but if everyone is using it -practically to the exclusion of every/any other pattern ….that’s the one that will be catching the fish. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all.

I’ve never heard of the Peter Ross being mentioned anywhere in any American fly fishing publication.  In the photos of it it that I have seen in European magazines however, I have seen ones that looked like a slightly bushy wet fly and others that looked almost like a streamer. Post your recipe and a picture.  I’m curious. Mu

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Hi Mu, There is a considerable selection of "Peter Rosses" on my site. The standard classic tie, and several variations. TL MC — "Humour is a great comfort in adversity" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all. I’ve never heard of the Peter Ross being mentioned anywhere in any American fly fishing publication.  In the photos of it it that I have seen in European magazines however, I have seen ones that looked like a slightly bushy wet fly and others that looked almost like a streamer. Post your recipe and a picture.  I’m curious. Mu

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Never heard of them? Impossible. I’ll add one in the swap flies mailing, I’ll have to tie some classics for Frank anyway. Herman I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all. I’ve never heard of the Peter Ross being mentioned anywhere in any American fly fishing publication.  In the photos of it it that I have seen in European magazines however, I have seen ones that looked like a slightly bushy wet fly and others that looked almost like a streamer. Post your recipe and a picture.  I’m curious. Mu

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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cross posted from ROFF, There is a considerable selection of "Peter Rosses" on my site. The standard classic tie, and several variations.

http://www.mikeconnor.de/Flies/Classic_Flies/classic_flies.html Ahh.  The little hint about moistening the wing in order to produce that appearance clears up some of my confusion.  I had been wondering if there was a special technique in getting tapered wings of teal.   Is there an acceptable substitute for crimson seal fur?  How about Ruby Red Lite Brite? Mu

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In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.10006011058580.8298- acceptable substitute for crimson seal fur?  How about Ruby Red Lite Brite?

I find if I use the fur quickly after I club the seal, it is still a crimson color.  Otherwise it turns kind of rusty brown. If there are no seals near you, try African goat. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hi Mu, Mohair, wool, and a host of various synthetics may be used.  Antron mixed with wool works very well too. I am not familiar with "Lite Brite", but assume it will work OK as well. TL MC — "Humour is a great comfort in adversity" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cross posted from ROFF, There is a considerable selection of "Peter Rosses" on my site. The standard classic tie, and several variations. http://www.mikeconnor.de/Flies/Classic_Flies/classic_flies.html Ahh.  The little hint about moistening the wing in order to produce that appearance clears up some of my confusion.  I had been wondering if there was a special technique in getting tapered wings of teal. Is there an acceptable substitute for crimson seal fur?  How about Ruby Red Lite Brite? Mu

Response:

Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film?

Hello, I’m new to the group, but not the sport.  Thought I might dive in with this.  I love fishing wet flies.  I find them more effective than nymphs in a lot of conditions.  Traditionaly the wet fly is fished in a downstream arc and is one of the few times where drag is an advantage.   I usually start with a partridge and XXX with a brass bead tied on behind the hackle and, depending on the water weight the line with lead.   I cast upstream and fish it like a nymph so it sinks quite a bit, then begin lifting the fly through the water column as it swings through a downstream arc.  This way, you often get a fish when the fly is dropping or bouncing on the bottom or when begining the emerger phase of the run.   This has proven deadly when hatches are just starting or when nothing seems to be happening on the river.  The other advantage is that wet fly fishing is one of the few techniques where you can feel the fish hit the fly, this allows me to look around a bit and watch what develops on the stream while fishing.  Usually I’ll fish a nymph for a while then switch to a wet fly when I see some insect activity on the water.  I’ll fish the wet in the above "emerger" style well after a hatch has started and won’t switch to dries until I can see lots (and I mean lots) of surface activity on the part of the fish.  I think many I fish with switch to dries much too quickly at even the slightest hint of a hatch and end up wasting time as the fish are usually not feeding on the surface until (depending on the bugs) well after the hatch develops.   Switching to wets as a intermediate step allows me plenty of time to watch and learn how the fish are responding to the hatch. I’ve also had great luck taking nymph patterns that are popular on a particular river and tying a partridge hackle on and fishing them in this manner. Russell

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(snip) I’ve also had great luck taking nymph patterns that are popular on a particular river and tying a partridge hackle on and fishing them in this manner. Russell

        as a matter of fact, some of the veteran local smoky mtn tiers tend to tie their "nymphs" in just that fashion.           specific reference is made to bennie joe craig of waynesville, nc., who is probably better known to the denizens of roff as the grandfather of the incomparable laurie, of bryson city fame. wayno

Response:

Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film? thanks, Bob

Response:

When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film? thanks, Bob

Depends on the fly. If it’s tied sparse it will stay just below or in the film.  If it’s tied heavy like a Picket Pin or Hornberg it will sink some. Cast it across and down stream. Allow it to drift straight below you. Swim it back up in 1 or 2 inch strips. Also, cast it across and mend line down stream to allow fly to sink more. Just before it goes straight below you raise rod to imitate emerging insect. Another thing to try is cast down stream and strip it back fast allowing it to bounce in the fast water. Fish have been known to leap out at it. Havr fun. Joel Axelrad

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Question:

I need to organise a flyfishing competition for fathers day and I need a couple of ideas on how to go about it. We’re doing this in a shopping mall parking lot so we’re just concentrating on casting (distance or accuracy). Does any body have any suggestions that will allow novices as well as experts to have a good time? Ari

Response:

I need to organise a flyfishing competition for fathers day and I need a couple of ideas on how to go about it. We’re doing this in a shopping mall parking lot so we’re just concentrating on casting (distance or accuracy). Does any body have any suggestions that will allow novices as well as experts to have a good time? Ari

        1.  paint a strip of the parking lot various shades of blue and green in an "s" curve about 90′ long.         2.  drag a few rocks from nearby rural areas into the parking lot and place them randomly within your painted area.         3.  cut out "fish" profiles from 1/4 inch plywood, paint them silver with a big red stripe down the middle and place them near the rocks.         4.  have large signs painted with the word "mountains" on them, and direct several beautiful, nubile women to hold them above their heads from time to time, placing the women on either side of the painted area.         5.  purchase a roff clave t-shirt for each of the women, ban or burn their bras, and hose them down every 5 or 10 minutes with tepid water.  the shirts can be purchased from little wayno’s outfitters (we never close) for the paltry sum of $50 each, including shipping.         6.  serve "carolina see-throughs" (vodka, tonic, no lime) to each contestant upon demand.         if you will follow those simple instructions, you won’t have to worry about silly impediments like rules or prizes.         as forty would say, "you’re welcome". for the firm wayno

Response:

Thanks Man, Sounds cool for a sunny day but we’re in the middle of bloody winter over here and all the nubile girls round here know how rude it is to point. Oh and if we could attend any of your competitions over there that would be just great. Cheers Ari – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I need to organise a flyfishing competition for fathers day and I need a couple of ideas on how to go about it. We’re doing this in a shopping mall parking lot so we’re just concentrating on casting (distance or accuracy). Does any body have any suggestions that will allow novices as well as experts to have a good time? Ari    1.  paint a strip of the parking lot various shades of blue and green in an "s" curve about 90′ long.    2.  drag a few rocks from nearby rural areas into the parking lot and place them randomly within your painted area.    3.  cut out "fish" profiles from 1/4 inch plywood, paint them silver with a big red stripe down the middle and place them near the rocks.    4.  have large signs painted with the word "mountains" on them, and direct several beautiful, nubile women to hold them above their heads from time to time, placing the women on either side of the painted area.    5.  purchase a roff clave t-shirt for each of the women, ban or burn their bras, and hose them down every 5 or 10 minutes with tepid water.  the shirts can be purchased from little wayno’s outfitters (we never close) for the paltry sum of $50 each, including shipping.    6.  serve "carolina see-throughs" (vodka, tonic, no lime) to each contestant upon demand.    if you will follow those simple instructions, you won’t have to worry about silly impediments like rules or prizes.    as forty would say, "you’re welcome". for the firm wayno

Response:

 Saw one where they put a Hulahoop on a ten foot pole and you have to cast through it, i.e. your whole loop.  The pole is 15 foot in front of the caster.  Prizes for those who make it through the most time in succession.                 Frank Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Ari, some of the following have worked well in the past: whip some rings on a broomstick, and have a distance competition with this. ( Use cheap line ! ) Obtain a plastic blow up animal such as is used on the beach, or a rocking horse, or similar. Contestants must cast to dinner plates placed at suitable distances while a couple of guys "rock the boat". Ten, twenty, thirty feet, etc. Tie a twenty foot  length of limp string to a garden cane, and a leader to this. Accuracy is the goal here. Cast only with the butt of a two piece rod.  And then only with the tip. Distance cast "from the hand", no rod or reel allowed. Casting with two rods simultaneously to two separate targets. A knot tying competition. Blindfold casting.  The rod is placed in the blindfolded persons hand, he is "turned around fast a few times", and has to try and hit the target from memory. " The golden shot", same as the blindfold, but one person gives directions to the caster, using only the words "left", "right", "cast". Get a washing up bowl or similar, attach this to a piece of string, this is pulled along by two volunteers, and the caster must hit the moving target. Roll casting a hosepipe. ( Be careful you have plenty of space here, if it hits anybody it hurts ! ). Roll casting a rope. There are lots of others, but these have always worked well and provided a lot of amusement, and some surprises. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Hi Ari, some of the following have worked well in the past: whip some rings on a broomstick, and have a distance competition with this. ( Use cheap line ! ) Obtain a plastic blow up animal such as is used on the beach, or a rocking horse, or similar. Contestants must cast to dinner plates placed at suitable distances while a couple of guys "rock the boat". Ten, twenty, thirty feet, etc. Tie a twenty foot  length of limp string to a garden cane, and a leader to this. Accuracy is the goal here. Cast only with the butt of a two piece rod.  And then only with the tip. Distance cast "from the hand", no rod or reel allowed. Casting with two rods simultaneously to two separate targets. A knot tying competition. Blindfold casting.  The rod is placed in the blindfolded persons hand, he is "turned around fast a few times", and has to try and hit the target from memory. " The golden shot", same as the blindfold, but one person gives directions to the caster, using only the words "left", "right", "cast". Get a washing up bowl or similar, attach this to a piece of string, this is pulled along by two volunteers, and the caster must hit the moving target. Roll casting a hosepipe. ( Be careful you have plenty of space here, if it hits anybody it hurts ! ). Roll casting a rope. There are lots of others, but these have always worked well and provided a lot of amusement, and some surprises. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Question:

After checking out some books at the library, I went out to Wal-mart and spent about $65.  I bought an 8′ rod, a Martin reel, and Cortland line, backing, and a few leaders.  I also picked up an assortment of flies. After setting up the rod and doing some false casts,  I felt like the rod was very, very fast.  Can I do anything with my line and leader to neutralize the fast action, or this a result of a $20 rod?  Currently I have a WF6F and 7.5 4X on the rod? I am fishing rivers and streams in central KY preferrably for trout or smallmouth. Any help and advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brian

Response:

It’s the design of the rod.  I guess you could try WF7F but that could limit your casting distance.  But if it’s really bothering you take the rod back, Wally World is usually pretty good on returns.  Try picking up a rod from a store that has knowledgeable flyfisherman.  You might be able to find a quality used rod from a local fly shop, otherwise try G.I. Joe’s (I set my dad up entirely for $130) or maybe even Bi-Mart. Also, you might want to try 9′ leaders instead of 7.5, I’ve found them a little more effective.

Response:

No, you can’t neutralize it, just go with the flow.  Use this outfit for casting larger and heavier flies and pick yourself a medium to soft action rod the next go-round.  Go to a fly shop and try out different weights, lengths and actions and then use that to plan your next purchase.  The action you have is build into your rod and you can not dampen the action.  You could use a heavier line to flex you rod more but then you are defeating the purpose. Gunner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -After checking out some books at the library, I went out to Wal-mart and spent about $65.  I bought an 8′ rod, a Martin reel, and Cortland line, backing, and a few leaders.  I also picked up an assortment of flies. After setting up the rod and doing some false casts,  I felt like the rod was very, very fast.  Can I do anything with my line and leader to neutralize the fast action, or this a result of a $20 rod?  Currently I have a WF6F and 7.5 4X on the rod? I am fishing rivers and streams in central KY preferrably for trout or smallmouth. Any help and advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brian

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…

Olemiss, Learn to cast this 8′ stick. Learn to catch fish with it. Try not to get caught up in the need to buy more stuff. There will be plenty of time for that later, believe me. Mitch

Response:

After setting up the rod and doing some false casts,  I felt like the rod was very, very fast.  Can I do anything with my line and leader to neutralize the fast action, or this a result of a $20 rod?  Currently I have a WF6F and 7.5 4X on the rod?

How far were you trying to cast?  In my experience, the Wal-mart/K-mart type rods aren’t usually very fast.  If you’re a newbie, you probably aren’t casting very far (*I* didn’t anyway!).  As you work more line out, the rod shouldn’t seem so fast.   The other problem could be that the rod really wants a heavier line than it’s rated.  That can be a problem sometimes.  My nephew had a Cortland 3/4 weight that really wanted a 5 weight line.  You never know unless you try it out. I used a K-mart rod for years, and caught a bunch of fish on it.  You may just need to work on your timing.   Have fun!! Lee — Lee Hiers, AA4GA Cornelia, Georgia http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/4473

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Question:

: On a related note, there was a mudslide in the Fraser Canyon today near : Lytton, BC. Wiped out the rail line, causing several tank cars of sulphur : to derail and catch fire. Have to see where this one goes Serious?  That will probably be nastier than the chlorine spill. Sheesh… it must be pretty nasty now… — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: : On a related note, there was a mudslide in the Fraser Canyon today near : Lytton,BC. Wiped out the rail line, causing several tank cars of sulphur : : to derail and catch fire. A small community near the derailment was evacuated (and still is); three days after the derailment, all is not yet out. Will check the news

Wow, that’s nasty!  I’ll bet you can smell sulfur dioxide for miles around. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley           2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

Response:

: : On a related note, there was a mudslide in the Fraser Canyon today near : : Lytton, BC. Wiped out the rail line, causing several tank cars of sulphur : : to derail and catch fire. Have to see where this one goes : Serious?  That will probably be nastier than the chlorine spill. : Sheesh… it must be pretty nasty now… A small community near the derailment was evacuated (and still is); three days after the derailment, all is not yet out. Will check the news tonight to see if they have successfully removed what’s left of the bodies of the two crewman who were on the derailed cars at the time of the accident. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (250) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (250) 368-9341

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Has there been any update on the possible environmental effects of last April’s train derailment outside Alberton, (which spilled tons of chlorine gas into the air, causing the evacuation of the entire town for a week)?

Hi Tom You are right. The chlorine did not get into the water but it did kill several acres of trees/brush. I drove through the day they reopened I-90. The spill area was right next to the highway. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products http://www.btsflyfishing.com ($.12 hooks from Japan)

Response:

: The chlorine would have presented some problems in an enclosed valley : (hence the evacuation) but all of the damage to flora and fauna would : have occurred in the first few minutes of exposure. After that, there : would be no impact (except, of course, for what died immediately). : Chlorine, while not something you want to encounter in high doses, occurs : quite abundantly in nature, and returns to its natural states (e.g. in : the form of chloride salts) quite quickly. Not in the atmosphere.  As I’m sure you’ve heard, it is chlorine (atoms, which will be created from chlorine molecules in sunlight) which is a big contributor to ozone depletion.  The "natural state" of chlorine is, well, chlorine, as it is commonly defined at STP. : As I recall, the spill occurred out of the water; most of the gas would : therefore have dispersed almost immediately into the air, not the river. : Even if the rupture had been underwater, any damage would have been : immediate (i.e. kills of fish, bugs in the immediate area). The stuff : would have been flushed almost immediately, leaving no long-term water : quality problems – certainly none involving health issues. I don’t think so.  Think about a swimming pool or hot tub.  The pH is checked after addition of a source chlorine… the water can become very acidic, which poses long term threat. Fish hate trace levels of chlorine and are also sensitive to pH.  (Try putting some trout in your swimming pool.) — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Has there been any update on the possible environmental effects of last April’s train derailment outside Alberton, (which spilled tons of chlorine gas into the air, causing the evacuation of the entire town for a week)?

The chlorine would have presented some problems in an enclosed valley (hence the evacuation) but all of the damage to flora and fauna would have occurred in the first few minutes of exposure. After that, there would be no impact (except, of course, for what died immediately). Chlorine, while not something you want to encounter in high doses, occurs quite abundantly in nature, and returns to its natural states (e.g. in the form of chloride salts) quite quickly. Are there any concerns about water quality problems in the Clark Fork as a result? What’s the buzz on this?

As I recall, the spill occurred out of the water; most of the gas would therefore have dispersed almost immediately into the air, not the river. Even if the rupture had been underwater, any damage would have been immediate (i.e. kills of fish, bugs in the immediate area). The stuff would have been flushed almost immediately, leaving no long-term water quality problems – certainly none involving health issues. 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (250) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (250) 368-9341

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment." Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael                                                                        

 This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

Response:

This is helpful, because it strongly suggests this is NOT the same proposed bridge.  The one I was talking about would be over the St. Croix itself and IN WISCONSIN, not Minnesota!

The St. Croix River is the border between Wi and MN from Prescott WI (About 20 miles SE of St. Paul) north to St. Croix Falls (maybe a little further north.)   If they’re talking about the Stillwater bridge I doubt the project will seriously effect the scenic value of the area which is essentially suburban.  (5 miles downstream I-94 crosses the river on two large bridges.  4 miles downstream a railroad bridge crosses the river.)  For a glimpse of the Stillwater bridge watch the movie "Grumpier Old Men".  The scene where Mel and the guy are breaking up is shot on the waterfront in Stillwater with the bridge in the background. If they’re talking about a bridge over the St. Croix where its inland in Wisconsin then I have to know if we’re talking about a one culvert bridge or a two culvert bridge?  (Its not that big a river farther north.) John Close

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.                                                                        

 THANK YOU very much!!!  I’ll bet it’s the same one after all—weird that the local newspaper that printed the story didn’t say a word about this deus-ex-machina manuever by the Dept. of the Interior!—but if I learn any more about it I’ll post it.  Thanks again!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi. Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens.

Hmmm…. It is very strange to read this article. As a resident of Stillwater for the past 10 years, I can tell you this bridge project, or a number like it, have been around since I’ve been here. Last I heard the project was still on. Here is a quote from another article I found.    Still on this year’s list are West Virginia’s Corridor H project,    Indiana’s I-69, Connecticut’s Route 6, California’s I-710, U.S.    Forest Service roads, the Automated Highway System and    Minnesota’s Stillwater Bridge.  Meanwhile, the Stillwater bridge    project’s inclusion in Green Scissors for a second year promoted    more calls for the project’s re-evaluation.  In a Minneapolis Star    Tribune article, (2/5) Rep. Jim Randstad, (R-MN) who endorsed    the report, criticized the bridge project: "They need to go back to    the drawing board.  (The project) needs to be scaled down    consistent with the area’s environment."   Declaring "Victory" sounds very bizarre to me. We have very complex situation here. First, the current Stillwater bridge is deteriorating fast, (not to mention that it is a hideous monstrosity). Second, the recreational pressures on the St Croix Valley are tremendous and Stillwater is at the epicenter of this pressure. The result, a huge traffic jam every Saturday & Sunday, morning and evening. Third, while the St Croix is a "National Scenic Waterway", the area they are planning to build is hardly the most scenic part of the river. NSP plant just down river, Stillwater Water Treatment is right there. A bridge is needed, but not one of the scale they have planned. -Michael

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Wild and Scenic has meant improving the road, blocking off the pull over on the shoulder where we use to park to scout Pin Ball , building over priced signs and getting on the web for the ——. Next will come the fees, permits and the crowds. I’m sure it has also done some good that I haven’t noticed.                                gene

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…? Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm                                                                        

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Response:

 Are we thinking of the same bridge and river?  The one I referred to was in the news two days ago as still being under serious consideration, and there was nothing in the article about any involvement by the Dept. of the Interior.  The river is in northwestern Wisconsin; the St. Croix flows into the Mississippi.

Perhaps not, but here is what is posted on The River Alliance of Wisconsin website: http://www.igc.apc.org/wisrivers/ "Victory on the St. Croix River Department of Interior Vetoes Stillwater Bridge As a New Year’s present to the St. Croix the Department of the Interior decided to veto the proposed Stillwater Bridge across the National Wild and Scenic St. Croix River. The decision came partly as a result of public pressure from concerned citizens. The Sierra Club, Northstar Chapter, in Minnesota, spearheaded the effort to protect the river. In early December the River Alliance teamed up with the Sierra Club to send an Urgent Alert to 600+ River Alliance members across Wisconsin asking them to write to Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt. William Schenk, Park Service Midwest Area Director, said of the project, "the massive structure would adversely affect the natural and historic scene, altering the scenic qualities of this segment of the river more than any development since designation as a National Wild and Scenic Riverway." The unnecessary project would have increased urban sprawl and added a large cement structure to a previously untouched area of the riverway. This project would have forever changed the character of the area. Sara Johnson, Executive Director of the River Alliance, said of the decision, "What a great way to start the New Year. The bridge was a terrible idea and we applaud the Department of the Interior for stopping the project. This decision sends a strong message that our Wild and Scenic Rivers are national treasures not to be messed with." If you know of another bridge project, I’d be glad to hear about it.

Response:

Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Fortunately that bridge was vetoed by the Department of the Interior. For more information, you might check out the River Alliance of Wisconsin website.  I don’t have the url handy but you can link there from http://www.awa.org/awa/affil_clubs/rts.htm

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie A single stretch can be designated either Wild, Scenic or Recreational or all three depending on the amount of development and access at each segment.  Take a look at http://www.nps.gov/ccso/wildriverslist.htm for a complete list.  Thanks for the info.  Yea we’re up here in GodforsakenMontana- more snow this December than any other single month in history.  Should have some good flows through the whole summer…  I’m still looking for any type of Wild and Scenic info I can find on how the designation affects the people and businesses afterwards.                                                                        

 I don’t know if this is within the ball-park as to what you want, but here goes:  A while ago I wrote about the construction of a huge Interstate section along the Namekagon River, a gorgeous river in Northwest Wisconsin that was the first river to go under the "protection" of federal designation as a "wild river"…long BEFORE the Intersate was built.  My point (apparently misunderstood) was that such designation apparently did nothing to protect the river in that case.  Yesterday I got another shock:  It seems there is now a debate over building a huge modern goddamn BRIDGE over the river…or perhaps downstream over the St. Croix into which the Namekagon flows, which is (has been?) equally wild and gorgeous.  I suggested that the "wild river" designation might induce a false sense of security among those who care about such matters…?

Response:

 I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are  administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land,  they can’t regulate it.  hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length.  are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Response:

There is a FEDERAL wild and scenic rivers act as well as individual state designations.  The state and federal designations may overlap, conflict or complement one another in a specific situation.  Most Wild and Scenic rivers involve several jurisdictions, ie. BLM, USFS, private landowners, BIA, NativeAmerican tribes, state owned lands. Under either designation (state or federal) developing a use plan is a very complex process involving an incredible balancing act among all the competing interests.  The plans for the Deschutes and Metolius in Oregon as an example have been going since the late 80s and some issues are not yet resolved.  You might contact Oregon Parks and Recreation(via the web) or the BLM (Prineville Office) for info or copies of plans.  Also the BLM or USFS in Idaho for the upper Snake river plan. I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. hmm.  The Yellow Dog River in the western upper peninsula is a designated Wild and Scenic River.  It starts in a national wilderness area and flows through that area only a couple miles, and then flows the rest of its length through state lands, but still designated Wild and Scenic along its entire length. are there exceptions? ——Muskie

Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Ooops… meant to say Colorado…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit. Big Sky…. as in Montana? What rivers? Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne                                                                        

 I don’t KNOW, but see my responses above under "Elitism…" or the like.

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of this designation from the point of view of recreationists, land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? Many thanks,

Response:

| I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Response:

I’ve discussed this before with FS officials. Wild and Scenic rivers are administered by the USFS. If the river doesn’t flow through USFS land, they can’t regulate it. — Brian D. Nelson, Missoula, Montana Montana Flyfishing and Hunting Outfitter http://www.montana.com/dno/dno.htm http://www.montana.com/dno/hunt.htm

Response:

I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic.

Here’s a starting point or two: http://www.sierraclub.org/ http://www.cwo.com/~trout/ Anglerboy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | I’m associated with a group exploring the possibility of starting the | process of getting a river designated Wild & Scenic. | | Are there any studies available that fully define the pros and cons of | this designation from the point of view of recreationists, | land-owners, timber and mining companies etc.??  Is there any body of | work to explore what the after-effects have been to designated rivers? | | Many thanks, | I am cross-posting this request to rec.boats.paddle newsgroup. This might be a potential source of contacts who have experience from which you might benefit.

Big Sky…. as in Montana?   What rivers?   Know the East Glacier area…. Although I am also familiar with Great Falls, however, when going to Montana to play, Great Falls is not high on the list. Jeanne

Response:

Question:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,         John

Response:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,        John

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx John…. I have been up in Anchorage several time at an area called Bulchitna. It is a lake and stream  on a tributary (sp) of Lake creek.  August may be just a little ealy for silvers, but if you want some good fishing and if the silvers are up, I would go to Bulchitna.  You can get a cabin on the lake (rustic cabin), with the stream 50 yards behind the cabin.  Lots of Pinks, rainbows, grayling, and silver (when running), and pike in the lake.  Call Craig Ketchum of Ketchum Air Service.  I don’t have the number with me right now, but they have an 800 number which you can get from the 800 operator.  Just as for Ketchum Air Service in Anchorage. Ketchum has lots of places they will fly you out to.  You can fish from 5:30am til 10:30pm.  I know that for a fact.  Who eats when you can fish! Contact me for more info. Russ….

Response:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,         John

Response:

I will be in Anchorage 1 – 4 Aug 96.  I have two choices. First choice is floating down Lake Creek and fishing for Silvers.  Second choice is fishing the Keni. I am the only flyfisher in the bunch and my partners have no idea what type of fly I should be tying.  I need to start tying now so any suggestions on patterns and sizes would be apprecitated.   Thanks,        John

I’d tie wooly buggers, egg-sucking leeches, large egg patterns, and flashy streamers on 1/0 to #4 hooks.  The best all-around fly in Alaska is probably the egg sucking leech in purple/Iliamna pinky.   BTW you didn’t ask but: Lake Creek float trip = nice wilderness experience, some mild whitewater, (WW1 – WW3) and good fishing.  There will be some , grayling, RBTs and some tired Kings.  It might be a bit early for Silvers in the upper river but you should run into them in the lower part. Kenai = lots of people, (although the King Salmon crowds are gone) and Aug. 1 – 4 is too early for Kenai Silvers.  They hit their stride in early September.  May be some late run Reds around in the upper drainages, (albeit a bit tired.) R. Wood in Alaska

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Question:

I NEED INDIVID’S WILLING TO USE THEIR TALENTS TO REFURBISH THE THE LATE                                           1) THE POOL IS COLLAPSED ON ONE SIDE—–NEED AN ENGIE TYPE WILLING TO SWAP FISHING FOR HIS OPINION.                                                        2) THE CESTE FOR FRESH WATER IS IN NEED OF MAJOR REPAIR.                                                       JOIN MAJOR SALTWATER FLYFISHING LEGENDS FOR A WEEKEND OF YOUR CHOICE AND HELP US RE-ESTABLISH THE BANG-BANG CLUB AS THE BEST BONEFISHING DESTINATION IN THE                                       PEACE,   CAPT. RAHE                                                          305-293-8088

Response:

I NEED INDIVID’S WILLING TO USE THEIR TALENTS TO REFURBISH THE THE LATE                                           1) THE POOL IS COLLAPSED ON ONE SIDE—–NEED AN ENGIE TYPE WILLING TO SWAP FISHING FOR HIS OPINION.                                                        2) THE CESTE FOR FRESH WATER IS IN NEED OF MAJOR REPAIR.                                                       JOIN MAJOR SALTWATER FLYFISHING LEGENDS FOR A WEEKEND OF YOUR CHOICE AND HELP US RE-ESTABLISH THE BANG-BANG CLUB AS THE BEST BONEFISHING DESTINATION IN THE

Hey, "Capt." Rahe, Your previous two posts show you to be an a–hole (not surprising considering the aol address) and furthermore, see that little key labeled "caps lock" over to the left on your keyboard? TURN IT OFF!!! David B.

Response:

Question:

Will be in Colorado Springs area the 2nd week of May. Some of the literature on the subject seems to suggest that the run-off will be in full swing at that time, and that it will be much more severe than I had assumed it to be. Is this gonna be a "wash-out"?

Response:

Will be in Colorado Springs area the 2nd week of May. Some of the literature on the subject seems to suggest that the run-off will be in full swing at that time, and that it will be much more severe than I had assumed it to be. Is this gonna be a "wash-out"?

If the runoff is high…GO FISHING ! 1) Put some rocks in your pockets (to keep from being swept away). 2) Put on a big ugly bug with eyeballs and rubber legs. 3) Keep the BB sized shot close at hand. Use a lot. 4) Fish the banks. 5) Rid yourself of the mental block that all flyfishing is done in    clear waters. 6) Enjoy the river in its swollen glory.   7) Avoid tailwaters as the crowds and attitudes eventually will ruin it for you. TW

Response:

If the runoff is high…GO FISHING ! 1) Put some rocks in your pockets (to keep from being swept away). 2) Put on a big ugly bug with eyeballs and rubber legs. 3) Keep the BB sized shot close at hand. Use a lot. 4) Fish the banks. 5) Rid yourself of the mental block that all flyfishing is done in   clear waters. 6) Enjoy the river in its swollen glory.   7) Avoid tailwaters as the crowds and attitudes eventually will ruin it for you. TW

Excellant advise T-bone!!  I like someone who can find a reason to fish no matter what.  As my grandfather used to say: "… which would you rather do… or go fishing?" Jack Wheeler

Response:

o  What are the major rivers/other opportunities

You’ll be nearest the upper Colorado River in the Kremmling/Hot Springs area. o  How far are they from Winter Park

Roughly 30 or 45 minutes. o  What are the likely conditions

Runoff varies from year to year.  If the rest of the Winter’s mild, late June should be OK.  Check river conditions at: http://www.infosphere.com/rof/yp/RFAnglers/rfa.htm That’s Glenwood Springs, but it should give you some idea (there are other river flow sources on the Web). o  Who’s the leading outfitter/guide service

Sorry, I’m not familiar with outfitters in that area. o  What’s worth traveling to for an overnight

Again, check out the website above… M

Response:

Question:

Tim Walker wrote;

ok…stay open minded for a second here… during the spawn, fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading. Theory: 1.  More of the natural spawn will survive (nailing immediate predator). 2.  Alternate species is culled resulting in better, although maybe fewer,    of these fish.3.  More fry is available to the ‘better fish’, thus

they get even better. 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving.

Nice theory but;   1.  What about the creek chubs, fallfish, cutlips minnow, longnose dace, shortnose dace, white suckes, common shiners, sculpins, stonerolllers, silverjaw minnow,bigeye chub, streamline chub, gravel chub, hornyhead chub, river chub, pearl dace,redside dace,….etc..etc.. and thats just a small example of a few "other" stream fish  from Central New York.  These will all eat trout eggs, so ya better plan on catching alot of fish.   2.  Eggs will not survive unless they are under gravel and have adequate water circulation. They will not suvive by just floating (bouncing) around the stream, and settling on the bottom doesn’t count. It takes about 145 days at 1.9 C for the eggs to hatch, thats a long time to be unprotected by a redd even if they could survive outside.  3. Why do you think trout produce so many eggs??  Brown trout eggs are typically 3-5mm in diameter and a female will produce about 800-1200 eggs PER POUND of body weight.  They can afford to lose a few.   4.  Natural mortality will kill off about 99.9% of the eggs, larva, juveniles before they reach maturity anyway. That just the way it goes. Remember you only need, on average, 2 trout to survive to maturity for each spawning pair to keep the spawning population constant.  And since some individuals will spawn in more than one year the number you need to survive in reality is less than that. 5. Your alternate competitor with rainbows theroy seems to make sense but;  where do you catch most of your rainbows ?? in the riffs right!  And where do you catch most of your brown trout; in the slower water, right! Thats because these species will naturally segregate to avoid (as much as possible) direct competition.  If there was indeed direct competition for the same habitat, there would be only one winner.  "No two species can inhabit the exact same niche at the same time and in the same place". Regards; Mark Arrigo SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry Syracuse NY

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last week I caught my first female brown laden with eggs. She was a vigorous fighter. After bringing her to the net quickly, I released her, and then discovered eggs in my net. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks. Scott Branyan Rogers, AR — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR

Do not handle them at all.How would you like to be pulled out of the bedroom during such an enjoyful act?

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fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading. 1.  More of the natural spawn will survive (nailing immediate predator). 2.  Alternate species is culled resulting in better, although maybe fewer,    of these fish. 3.  More fry is available to the ‘better fish’, thus they get even better. 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving.

Tim, I would agree about closing the beds to wading,  in fact I think they should be closed to fishing. 1.  Trout eggs are buried in gravel, only the ones that float free are eaten by other fish.  They would not survive even if the predator fish were not there. 2.  Man is not a good tool to use for culling, nature is.  Man destroys all things equally, nature removes the weak. 3.  Nature only allows 1 or 2 percent of the eggs to reach maturity in the wild, when man starts fooling around with this there is trouble.   4.  Smoked stockers is a great idea, in fact they should smoke them at the hatchery and leave our trout streams alone so we can have catch and release fishing for wild trout. Just my opinion Ernie Harrison

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: 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving. I’ll take about 4 pounds, please.  Bill my account. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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Dear Fishing nuts, Ive always found that the best way to handle a spawning fish is to begin with a light dinner… you know.. maybe take her out to wsomewhere nice… perhaps a nice big plate full of salmno fly nymphs… then, of course, take that fish out dancing and carousing… get her really into the mood.. then, well, back home for some serious spawning.. if you know waht I mean. edwin

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 Proper way to handle spawning fish?  On alternate years…CLOSE THE SEASON AT AN EARLIER DATE!!!! just my $.02 worth steve drossel Don’t know if this would be the best solution….but I don’t think it would hurt.

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Last week I caught my first female brown laden with eggs. She was a vigorous fighter. After bringing her to the net quickly, I released her, and then discovered eggs in my net. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks. Scott Branyan Rogers, AR — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR

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Here’s a twist… ok…stay open minded for a second here… during the spawn, fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading. Theory: 1.  More of the natural spawn will survive (nailing immediate predator). 2.  Alternate species is culled resulting in better, although maybe fewer,     of these fish. 3.  More fry is available to the ‘better fish’, thus they get even better. 4.  Smoked stocker rainbow ain’t bad at Thanksgiving. Courteous replies encouraged !!! Tim Walker

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…. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks.

If you think of each of those eggs as a future large trout you’ll want them buried in the peagravel, and only the mother can do that. These large brown trout can spawn naturally without undue stress if you leave them alone at this time.  Rainbows are busy fattening up for the winter and will give a much better fight than a spawning brown, if you have any rainbow trout waters you can fish. Mark Vinsel May these eggs produce trout that break the tippets of our grandchildren. http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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Tim Walker wrote during the spawn, fish for and kill the alternate species (i.e. when the browns are spawning…keep and kill rainbows).  Use an egg pattern downstream the redds.  Close the beds to wading.

(etc…) Tim, I was under the impression that eggs floating downstream are not going to survive anyway; therefore, removing the rainbows that are eating the eggs is not going to make a difference.  Am I correct? I like closing the beds to wading.  People should fish more from shore in general, especially during the spawning season. Rob

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Last week I caught my first female brown laden with eggs. She was a vigorous fighter. After bringing her to the net quickly, I released her, and then discovered eggs in my net. Besides being more gentle in bringing them in, and being careful not to squeeze the fish, is there anything else I should do? I do use a catch and release net, which makes it easier to treat them gently. Many thanks. Scott Branyan Rogers, AR — Scott Branyan Rogers, AR

The best way to handle a spawning trout is to not catch it, but if you do, leave the fish in the water (not using your net) and unhook the trout or cut the leader. I usually try to avoid handling of the fish anyway which works very well except in very strong current. Maybe we should think about not fishing for spawning trout to preserve the populations (That means also not wading in parts of a river where trout spawn!). Only my personal opinion                             Thomas

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