Question:

Tres Cool! Left my house south of Ba’more at about 6:20 a.m.  (O-dark-thirty for the rest of you).  Headed north to beautiful Somerset, NJ (exit 10 North) and pulled into the Doubletree Hotel parking lot at 0930.  First time on the NJ Turnpike.  If you’re doing 75, then turn on your emergency flashers and get on the shoulder.  Also, if I’d not bought anything, discounting gas, the tolls and the entrance fee cost me about $32.  Sheesh!!  I’m a West Coast kinda guy.  We ain’t used to these toll roads. A few yards inside the door, there’s Tom Littleton tying one on (a Catskill tie).  I go to the Mike Martinek presentation and he remembers me and Frank’s Fightin’ Craw from the Chatsworth Angling Fair in the UK back in ‘97. At 12:30, Tom is done tying so we wander through to shop and check out the heavy hitters on hand.  We see A.K. Best, Borger (father and son), Fishy Fullum, Tim Trexlar, Oliver Edwards, Jack Gartside, Dick Talleur and a few dozen more.  Just watching these folks tie is incredible. There are some new people there too.  Gentleman by the name of Dave Martin. He ties the most realistic lion fish (yes, its a fly done with deer hair) that I’ve ever seen.  His blue-ringed octopus and scorpion are just as amazing.  I’ll post the pic of the lion fish this evening. Overall, a very worthwhile show.  By the way, Tom said that Stan, Handyman Mike and a few others were gonna show up.  Where were you, you whimps!?  If I can vibrate my spine silly on the Turnpike from the south, then someone should have to suffer the trip from the north. Thanks Tom for the introductions (man, everyone knows him) and the wonderful time. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Next time try – I-695 to I-83 North to I-81 North to I-78 East To I-287 South.  $0.25 toll each way (pay $0.50 when west bound) at the Delaware river. and believe it or not, it’s not 10 minutes longer and usually shorter due to low traffic volumes.  I’ve been doing it both ways for years. Gene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tres Cool!   Also, if I’d not bought anything, discounting gas, the tolls and the entrance fee cost me about $32.  Sheesh!!  I’m a West Coast kinda guy.  We ain’t used to these toll roads. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

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Thanks! "Eugene Cottrell" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Next time try – I-695 to I-83 North to I-81 North to I-78 East To I-287 South.  $0.25 toll each way (pay $0.50 when west bound) at the Delaware river. and believe it or not, it’s not 10 minutes longer and usually shorter due to low traffic volumes.  I’ve been doing it both ways for years. Gene

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Overall, a very worthwhile show.  By the way, Tom said that Stan, Handyman Mike and a few others were gonna show up.  Where were you, you whimps!?

(Un)fortunately, I get to play host for Thanksgiving this year so I have to rearrange the house to get a dining room back.  Also got signed up for a software project on Friday, so my schedule is way too tight.  I really wanted to go this year. Did you by any chance get to see Marla Blair tying?  She usually shares a table with Dick Talleur and I know they were traveling down together.  She ties some amazing (unfishable) realistic grasshoppers and crickets. –Stan (I *will* be at the Somerset flyfishing show in January)

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Stan,   I saw Marla tying up something terrestrial, tough to get details as she had a crowd around her.  Too bad you couldn’t make it down…..maybe Danbury over the winter??                                Tom

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I would LOVE to have made it up to this event!  Couldn’t get away this time around though. Right now I’m in pretty good shape in all departments except hooks and a tyer can NEVER have enough chicken feathers!  What I missed most was the techniques to be learned from the real experts.  I have an interest in the Catskill style and would really like to improve myself in that area. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tres Cool! Left my house south of Ba’more at about 6:20 a.m.  (O-dark-thirty for the rest of you).  Headed north to beautiful Somerset, NJ (exit 10 North) and pulled into the Doubletree Hotel parking lot at 0930.  First time on the NJ Turnpike.  If you’re doing 75, then turn on your emergency flashers and get on the shoulder.  Also, if I’d not bought anything, discounting gas, the tolls and the entrance fee cost me about $32.  Sheesh!!  I’m a West Coast kinda guy.  We ain’t used to these toll roads. A few yards inside the door, there’s Tom Littleton tying one on (a Catskill tie).  I go to the Mike Martinek presentation and he remembers me and Frank’s Fightin’ Craw from the Chatsworth Angling Fair in the UK back in ‘97. At 12:30, Tom is done tying so we wander through to shop and check out the heavy hitters on hand.  We see A.K. Best, Borger (father and son), Fishy Fullum, Tim Trexlar, Oliver Edwards, Jack Gartside, Dick Talleur and a few dozen more.  Just watching these folks tie is incredible. There are some new people there too.  Gentleman by the name of Dave Martin. He ties the most realistic lion fish (yes, its a fly done with deer hair) that I’ve ever seen.  His blue-ringed octopus and scorpion are just as amazing.  I’ll post the pic of the lion fish this evening. Overall, a very worthwhile show.  By the way, Tom said that Stan, Handyman Mike and a few others were gonna show up.  Where were you, you whimps!? If I can vibrate my spine silly on the Turnpike from the south, then someone should have to suffer the trip from the north. Thanks Tom for the introductions (man, everyone knows him) and the wonderful time. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

Stan,   I saw Marla tying up something terrestrial, tough to get details as she had a crowd around her.  Too bad you couldn’t make it down…..maybe Danbury over the winter??                                Tom

The Danbury show is January 3-5.  I’ve never been to that one, but it’s pretty close by and I know a couple of people I could talk into going.  All they have listed on their site is a bunch of tying classes (and a rod building class).  What else do you know about that show? We already have a room booked for the Somerset show in January – I think at the Holiday Inn (better bar than the DoubleTree).  I love that show.

Response:

Howdy All     Would have liked to have made the show myself but with the recent rains i am behind on my yard cleanings with snow a possibility this week had to get as much done as we could this weekend. Maybe in Jan. who knows the weather will dictate that also.                    Handyman Mike           Standing in a river waving a stick

Response:

There are some new people there too.  Gentleman by the name of Dave Martin. He ties the most realistic lion fish (yes, its a fly done with deer hair) that I’ve ever seen.  His blue-ringed octopus and scorpion are just as amazing.  I’ll post the pic of the lion fish this evening.

The lion fish fly pic is on a.b.p.f. Frank

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably are Gamma rays, actually.) Don’t tell my mother-in-law!  I finally convinced her to wear the aluminum foil helmet (made it myself, actually), and I don’t want to lose credibility with her…

when i wear my foil helmet i sound like a truck in reverse *beep beep beep* headkase – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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No, check it out, like, the device is magnetic, right? And, with enough carefull precision and some-one else’s infected butt one can carefully maneouver the device out through one’s mouth like they did in -now what was that k-ko0l christopher lambert movie in the 80’s again? Anyway, I’ve succeeded in removing mine and am currently on the road towards Mexico with a jammer in my left testicle – if all goes to plan the world will be obliterated by 7 ‘o clock this evening. I can’t give you any more details – Wish me luck. I HEAR THE OLD ONES SPEAK TO ME THROUGH JOHN TRAVOLTA’S RECTUM!!! AND STILL, THE PURPOSE OF LIFE HAS NOT YET DAWNED ON ME!!! PLACE YOUR NIPPLE IN MY MOUTH AND I WILL SHOW YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW!!! GIVE ME MY ORANGE JUICE!!! SHMOO!!! -WIZDUMB. (H3′Z S0 SL1CK) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE  of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays.  Probably are Gamma rays, actually.) Don’t tell my mother-in-law!  I finally convinced her to wear the aluminum foil helmet (made it myself, actually), and I don’t want to lose  credibility with her… when i wear my foil helmet i sound like a truck in reverse *beep beep beep* headkase

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hehe made me smile

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hehe made me smile

me too

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i was just let in on a conspiracy from a guy in a black suburban with a flat top…. he had lepard print cup holders and one of those bead seat covers on the passenger side… he started "have you ever met a kid that wanted to be a preast?" "no" i replied as i started out the door he grabbed me and pulled me back in proclaiming i was being watched now. i asked by who, only to see a group of priests across the street.. he sped away, me still in the seat and he started to unveil all he knew. Priests don’t grow up, there aliens… and the pope is a prince… now, whenever a certain area is to be breached they down what the call a faggit, or a fag as we call them to go hit on all the locals, being a fag he is not seen as a threat.. so he integrates himself into the surroundings… quetly making money here and there while he can.  At night time he is contacted in his basement and beams all his money to the collective, now.. when enough money is reached the collective buys what they call a ultimate money raising house… or church, with the tax free income from the brain washed populi that fills the collection baskets and the rich and famous using there own tax evading ways (set up by the aliens using another node that comes out of the spine)[acid is the way to get around this node... hence the alien populis created drug charges for the drug... this also explains why the 60's/early 70's where creative times... we thought for ourselves] now, jesus was really an alien named bob that used his powers for good… the aliens being evil nailed him to a piece of wood and raped him… many times (there all gay remember) now back to the preists of doom. They followed us down the local blvd. using penis shaped ships… they were cloaked but we say them on the acid boys saburben heat sensors… they cornered us in a ally, when all of a sudden he started to bump suvivor by destiny’s child… he then said the aliens hated women and bad music… and destiny’s child was the worst enemy sense there all secretly lesbain.  which goes into another conspiracy regarding Nuns… but that will come at another time… if your not into acid he also revieled that nude pictures of the golden girls in your wallet also helped cancel out the node. Tyler.

Response:

They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably are Gamma rays, actually.)

Don’t tell my mother-in-law!  I finally convinced her to wear the aluminum foil helmet (made it myself, actually), and I don’t want to lose credibility with her…

Response:

Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on: The Illuminati do have orbital mind control lasers. But they’re not the Illuminati, that’s just a front. They’re aliens. Government aliens. And they have written many of the conspiracy theories – yeas, especially "Secret Squirrel." They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably are Gamma rays, actually.) They write about alien implants, and even abduct people to spread these theories, always being sure to have them believe the implants are in their heads. Of course, people even tell them, even if they don’t believe them, that it is all in their heads. But is it? No, that’s the conspiracy. You see, they are putting the mind control chips in your ass. How does it work? well, everyone has nerves in their ass, which it attaches to. Very few people check their ass for scars, so few people notice. It’s not active all the time, just when they really need it, and they have to reabduct people every few months to change the batteries. What are the signs? Hemmorhoids. Hemmorhoids are a sure sign you are allergic to the implant, or have just had it replaced and are still sore from the implantation. Other signs include an overwhelming desire to scream "you are a fucking idiot" at random people, especially scientologists. Scientologists are not immune, but are usually controlled by a rival, even more evil, conspiracy. You see, these conspiracies have been at war for thousands of years. The Illuminati are against Scientology, and if they control your ass, will force you to hate John Travolta. But you hated John Travolta before? Yes, this is what they want you to think. Of course, their is a solution. Wrapping your head in tinfoil only exposes you to MORE mindcontrol rays (tinfoil works like an antenna). So, what you need to do instead, is wrap your ass in duct tape. Really. And don’t ever take it off at night, for that is what they want you to do. When you are sleeping is the most important time to wear the duct tape, as that is when they will try to abduct you. Also, to stop them, boobytrap your ass. Really. Moustraps on the outside of the duct tape work good, and can be ducttaped on themselves. Rattraps work even better, but have the drawback of occasionally trapping a rat on your ass, which is not a fun thing, especially if rats have a natural tendency to search your ass for food. Glue mousetraps should not be worn, as they tend to trap, well, the chair you sit on, which is rarely a good thing. Garlic, of course, can always be used in addition to the traps, just in case the Illuminati are allergic to it. Never use mines or explosives, just in case the Illuminati do trigger your ass. And remember, all is not what it seems, especially with tinfoil on your head and ducttape on your ass. — — theoneflasehaddock formerly of deja.com AIM – the1flasehaddock Suspected GLOBAL VILLAGE IDIOT. founder of the ‘Royal Discordian Opposition to the Cursed Number after Nine and Before Seven’ Known mad Imposter Fuckwit, you hatter bastards

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Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on: Read GURPS Illuminati. Then remember that the author, Nigel Findley, died shortly after the book was published. It has the most interesting version of the OMCL’s you can find.

I’ve been meaning to read that one for a while, I keep hearing how good it is, I just never get around to finding a copy. Instead, I sit at a computer and troll. Yay. — — theoneflasehaddock formerly of deja.com AIM – the1flasehaddock Suspected GLOBAL VILLAGE IDIOT. founder of the ‘Royal Discordian Opposition to the Cursed Number after Nine and Before Seven’ Known mad Imposter Fuckwit, you hatter bastards

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: Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my : tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on: : : The Illuminati do have orbital mind control lasers. But they’re not the : Illuminati, that’s just a front. They’re aliens. Government aliens. And they : have written many of the conspiracy theories – yeas, especially "Secret : Squirrel." They write about mind control lasers affecting your head, and why : you should wear tinfoil, but tinfoil acts as a receiver, so you get MORE of : the mind control rays (are just past X-ray range, near Gamma rays. Probably : are Gamma rays, actually.) You need to use ARSCC-approved tinfoil hat to keep the mind control waves out of your head.  The ARSCC R&D Lab guarantees they are effective against even Scientology’s toadally gnarly Operating Thetans who can kill you with a thought. Perry Scott Co$ Escapee (ARSCC = alt.religion.scientology Central Committee.  It does not exist.  Really!  Now, see this red light?  … )

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Well, I’ve been reading up on conspiracy theories. Why? probably because my tinfoil isn’t working. Well, here’s a summary of what’s actually going on:

Read GURPS Illuminati. Then remember that the author, Nigel Findley, died shortly after the book was published. It has the most interesting version of the OMCL’s you can find. —   /   Marc Etienne Lachance, HOKuM, LMAA  /<  Episkopos without a cabal, /____ Non-Leader of Something or Another.

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Ever read "Foucault’s Pendulum"? I can’t look at another conspiracy theory the same, now. But, here’s mine:  there _is_ a conspiracy, only it’s not perpetrated by anyone in control of any government, or supergovernment, or occult organisation, or racial group or whatever.  It’s perpetrated by a wide variety of people with enough money not to worry about where their next meal is coming from, or about whether they’ll have a place to sleep, who are so caught up in trying to find some outside, all-encompassing explanation for why they got turned down at the bank for that loan for a jetski, or why Tammy didn’t win first at her school athletics day, or why Uncle Rob got cancer, that they lose sight of the places where they really _are_ being manipulated. Instead of spending some time thinking about (and getting mad about) the unequal distribution of resources (particularly food, but money can always by food, even in a famine) between the First and Third World, they get all anti about GE and how horrible it is that they’re forced to eat fly genes in those nice, fresh tomatoes.   Instead of getting active about overpopulation and/or too-low birth rates, they crow and complain when the government tries to steal _their_ money to build another road or add another few dollars to some superannuation scheme. Instead of seeing that eating unhealthily, not exercising, not going for regular check-ups and not following medical advice, they complain that it’s actually cellphones and suppressed anger and rays from spy satellites that makes them sick.     Instead of doing something constructive to lower the costs of medication to people in other countries (particularly for AIDS medication in Central Africa) to a level that is actually something lower than ten times their yearly income for a year-long course, they moan and whinge about how it’s actually vaccination that creates all the terrible sicknesses that we see in our everyday suburban, middle-class neighbourhood. I could (and will) go on about this, but you get the idea……. Love you heaps, Altair "We didn’t know they were going to drop a space station on us." -Trevor Canty, New Zealand fishing boat skipper, quoted in the New Zealand Herald, March 23, 2001. Coven of the Triple Moon: http://www.geocities.com.Paris/Cafe/8564/

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Question:

Another good reason NOT to carry your logbook:  If you are ramp-checked, the FAA rep can ask to see your log book.  If you don’t have it with you, you can just say so.

Unless you’re hiding something, why would you NOT want the FAA guy to look at your logbook? We were ramped a few months ago, and it was a complete non-event.   He looked at the airworthiness certificate, my Private certificate, my medical, and wished us a fond farewell.   It took all of about 90 seconds. If he had asked for my logbook (which lives in the seatback pocket, right along with the POH), he would have been welcome to peruse it as well. You guys gotta stop being so paranoid about these FAA guys — they’re not Nazis, ya know! — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Warrior N33431

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Jay, Because other than to show currency for the flight, he has no right to ask for it.  I’m not paranoid about the FAA, I get along well with most all of them I meet.  But I still won’t just give them anything they demand on a ramp check either if they have no right to see it.  Your freedoms get eroded in your attitude first.  Just one guy’s opinion. — John Stricker "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to be a vegetarian"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another good reason NOT to carry your logbook:  If you are ramp-checked, the FAA rep can ask to see your log book.  If you don’t have it with you, you can just say so. Unless you’re hiding something, why would you NOT want the FAA guy to look at your logbook? We were ramped a few months ago, and it was a complete non-event.   He looked at the airworthiness certificate, my Private certificate, my medical, and wished us a fond farewell.   It took all of about 90 seconds. If he had asked for my logbook (which lives in the seatback pocket, right along with the POH), he would have been welcome to peruse it as well. You guys gotta stop being so paranoid about these FAA guys — they’re not Nazis, ya know! — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Warrior N33431

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I usually take my logbook with me when I go flying.  I’m careful with it, but probably not careful enough.  I’ve been thinking…. What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing? ….and in a related question…. When was the last time you backed up your hard drive? Is it appropriate to "back up" your logbook?  How about your medical, your license?  What do you do to safeguard your logbook?  If it’s lost of damaged, what does that mean?  Should you Xerox you logbook it once in a while as a backup?  In the event of a logbook disaster, would a photocopy mean anything? Just curious.  Thanks.

Response:

What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing?

It’s a hassle, but not fatal. Is it appropriate to "back up" your logbook?  

I do.  For one, my logbook sits locked in a fire resistant box at home. It never goes anywhere unless absolutely necessary, which isn’t often anymore. How about your medical, your license?

Don’t worry about those.  Okie City can fax you a temporary replacement in no time, and that’s good until they send you a permanent replacement.  A photocopy won’t fly, though. In the event of a logbook disaster, would a photocopy mean anything?

Yes, it would. Larry Fransson Pilots are just plane people with a different air about them.

Response:

Hi David keep in mind the regs only require you to show proof of recency, or, required time for a rating. That includes the flight review and or endorsements. If you are a rated pilot, you do not have to carry your logbook with you. In fact, I advise against it. Some may argue the point of copies, but in absence of any "written" record, what can you produce to show experience or recency? The time you show when you get your physical? I do know of one pilot that used that to show time for insurance purposes. I found an old logbook that dated back into the mid-50’s with the usual student pilot observations of how smooth a landing was, or a place with great burgers, or whatever. To lose one that records your early days as a pilot is a real loss beyond value. One of my entries recorded the first moon landing and my feelings. Another recorded the first dead stick landing of the shuttle. My first spin, my first X-C, not sure where I was over uncharted territory in the Amazon back in the early 60’s, getting caught in a huge sand storm in the Bayuda Desert in Egypt, recording some of the rich and famous I had on board on different flights. I also have quite a few temporary licenses taped into the logs that date back into the 50’s. Fond memories all….well most are!! So, leave the book at home if you don’t have to carry it along. And, if anyone ever asks you to give it up for FAA action or something similar, DON’T DO IT lest you never see it again. At that point you let an aviation attorney take care of the nuances. Remember, whatever you put in that logbook can be declared a legal document and while it can show you complied, it may also send them on a fishing expedition and hammer you for something stupid and unrelated! Been there-done that…. Fly Safe and remember..deny, Deny DENY!! FlyinRock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I usually take my logbook with me when I go flying.  I’m careful with it, but probably not careful enough.  I’ve been thinking…. What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing? ….and in a related question…. When was the last time you backed up your hard drive? Is it appropriate to "back up" your logbook?  How about your medical, your license?  What do you do to safeguard your logbook?  If it’s lost of damaged, what does that mean?  Should you Xerox you logbook it once in a while as a backup?  In the event of a logbook disaster, would a photocopy mean anything? Just curious.  Thanks.

Before you buy.

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Use pages in the back of your logbook to record BFR/IRCC and other such currency flights/training.  Don’t carry your logbook…if ramped, copy and send only those pages to FAA. Government is too big and has developed a bad attitude about our rights, it is time for everybody to demand full liberty in our personal affairs.  Two guys at least have similar opinion. — Jim Macklin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jay, Because other than to show currency for the flight, he has no right to ask for it.  I’m not paranoid about the FAA, I get along well with most all of them I meet.  But I still won’t just give them anything they demand on a ramp check either if they have no right to see it.  Your freedoms get eroded in your attitude first.  Just one guy’s opinion. — John Stricker "I didn’t spend all these years getting to the top of the food chain just to be a vegetarian" Another good reason NOT to carry your logbook:  If you are ramp-checked, the FAA rep can ask to see your log book.  If you don’t have it with you, you can just say so. Unless you’re hiding something, why would you NOT want the FAA guy to look at your logbook? We were ramped a few months ago, and it was a complete non-event.   He looked at the airworthiness certificate, my Private certificate, my medical, and wished us a fond farewell.   It took all of about 90 seconds. If he had asked for my logbook (which lives in the seatback pocket, right along with the POH), he would have been welcome to peruse it as well. You guys gotta stop being so paranoid about these FAA guys — they’re not Nazis, ya know! — Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Warrior N33431

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Is it appropriate to "back up" your logbook?

Absolutely.  I XEROXed mine.  The FAA is pretty lenient about reconstructing lost logbooks.  A XEROX will do fine.  They’ve let people account for time based on old FBO records and receipts. How about your medical, your license?

I keep these in my wallet.  Lost my wallet once.   Phone the FAA and they will FAX you temporaries.  Getting my Driver’s License replaced was harder (not to mention calling all the credit card companies).

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medical, your license?  What do you do to safeguard your logbook?  If it’s lost of damaged, what does that mean?  Should you Xerox you logbook it once in a while as a backup?  In the event of a logbook disaster, would a photocopy mean anything?

Yep, it would. I keep a copy of my logbook on excel, and also have scans of my logbook. Every few months I burn them into a CD and stick them in the bank safety deposit box. Cheap insurance…… -dave

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What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing? All good reasons NOT to carry your logbook. Why would you want to? The only time I take it with me is on vacation – in case I want to rent an airplane.

Another good reason NOT to carry your logbook:  If you are ramp-checked, the FAA rep can ask to see your log book.  If you don’t have it with you, you can just say so. == Do not reply to "from" address.  (Sorry, this is an anti-spam measure.) ==

Response:

What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing? All good reasons NOT to carry your logbook. Why would you want to? The only time I take it with me is on vacation – in case I want to rent an airplane. Another good reason NOT to carry your logbook:  If you are ramp-checked, the FAA rep can ask to see your log book.  If you don’t have it with you, you can just say so.

If you DO have it with you, you can likewise say no. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -== Do not reply to "from" address.  (Sorry, this is an anti-spam measure.) ==

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I scan my logbook pages and burn the images onto cdroms as well. More than one cdrom too, copies stored in multiple locations (at home + at office). Each time a fill up a new page in the book, a couple of new cdroms will get created. I plan to copy partial pages to floppies kept with the cdroms (again, redundant copies since a floppy can get zapped too easily). Also  I keep copies of all images on my hard drive on my PC too. My PC stays in a state of perpetual backup. I use a hardware mirroring FastTrak-66 disk drive interface card and have a pair of identical, mirrored disk drives in my pc. Nothing beats having mirrored disks in case one fails. Been there, done that and the cost of the card $75 plus a second 20GB disk $150 is very cheap insurance, besides backing up 20GB of disk contents to tape every night is too much of a hassle. About once a month, all my critical files on the mirrored hard drive pair get copied to cdroms too. DB_Wan_Kenobi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – your medical, your license?  What do you do to safeguard your logbook?  If it’s lost of damaged, what does that mean?  Should you Xerox you logbook it once in a while as a backup?  In the event of a logbook disaster, would a photocopy mean anything? Yep, it would. I keep a copy of my logbook on excel, and also have scans of my logbook. Every few months I burn them into a CD and stick them in the bank safety deposit box. Cheap insurance…… -dave

Before you buy.

Response:

Organizers make great logbooks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I usually take my logbook with me when I go flying.  I’m careful with it, but probably not careful enough.  I’ve been thinking…. What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing? All good reasons NOT to carry your logbook. Why would you want to? The only time I take it with me is on vacation – in case I want to rent an airplane. Part of the checkout procedure usually involves checking regulatory recency and recent flight experience. ….and in a related question…. When was the last time you backed up your hard drive? Every night. I have a simple batch routine that tales all my data files, zips them up, and dumps them on a zip drive. I also have a computerized logbook, so that I have a "reliable record" in case I need to reconstruct my logbook.    (o)/       Denver, Colorado    o O o       www.midlifeflight.com       email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber"

Response:

I usually take my logbook with me when I go flying.  I’m careful with it, but probably not careful enough.  I’ve been thinking…. What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing?

All good reasons NOT to carry your logbook. Why would you want to? The only time I take it with me is on vacation – in case I want to rent an airplane. Part of the checkout procedure usually involves checking regulatory recency and recent flight experience. ….and in a related question…. When was the last time you backed up your hard drive?

Every night. I have a simple batch routine that tales all my data files, zips them up, and dumps them on a zip drive. I also have a computerized logbook, so that I have a "reliable record" in case I need to reconstruct my logbook.     (o)/       Denver, Colorado     o O o       www.midlifeflight.com       email? replace "spamaway" with "mkolber"

Response:

I recommend the following: 1) Don’t carry your logbook with you unless it’s absolutely necessary. There is no requirement for having your logbook along with you on most flights (unless you’re a Recreational Pilot).  Keep the logbook in a safe place at your home or office. 2) Make copies of any endorsements in the logbook.  i.e. Endorsements recommending you for checkrides and/or written tests.  Endorsements for operation of high performance airplane, complex airplane, tailwheel airplane, etc. This is a "just in case" measure, to protect you from loss of the logbook due to fire, theft, flood, etc.  It’s fairly simple if not easy to reconstruct the flying time in a logbook, but it can sometimes be impossible to replace the endorsements. 3) Use an "electronic logbook" as a backup for your hard copy log.  I have two separate computer logbooks in addition to my actual logbook(s), so if either is lost I can use the other to reconstruct.  NOTE – the computer logbook will not have the endorsements in it that the hard copy does.  See #2.  Another advantage of a computer log is that it’s easily searchable. When you need to know how much time you have in different categories/classes/types or even specific airplanes, a computer logbook can give you that info in seconds and can save you a bunch of hunting around in your paper logbook. 4) Have fun and fly safely! Joe Norris

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I usually take my logbook with me when I go flying.  I’m careful with it, but probably not careful enough.  I’ve been thinking…. What happens if someone steals my flightbag with my logbook? What happens if I drop my logbook in a puddle and all the inked entries run and become unreadable? What happens if my dog eats it? What happens if I just lose the damn thing? ….and in a related question…. When was the last time you backed up your hard drive? Is it appropriate to "back up" your logbook?  How about your medical, your license?  What do you do to safeguard your logbook?  If it’s lost of damaged, what does that mean?  Should you Xerox you logbook it once in a while as a backup?  In the event of a logbook disaster, would a photocopy mean anything? Just curious.  Thanks.

Response:

Question:

    I’m looking for plans for a small plywood flat- bottomed flyfishing pram. Something well thought out but easy to build by a ham handed handyman. Is there anything available on the net? Al.

Response:

Try http://www.glen-l.com/ . I haven’t used them, but am seriously considering. They have a nice selection of plans, pictures, and instructions. Tim Lysyk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I’m looking for plans for a small plywood flat- bottomed flyfishing pram. Something well thought out but easy to build by a ham handed handyman. Is there anything available on the net? Al.

Response:

Question:

: Another nice place is when you go into Idaho from Montana over the Lolo : Pass. Yes, but now everybody goes there.  Sheesh, like 2 or 3 people a week. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: Well Rick, I can’t find my map just yet but I would have to believe : that the creek is just north of Galena Summit.  At least I think that : is what it is called.  It is the pass between Ketchum and Stanley.   Nice try, I know the area a little, but it is not the spot I was talking about.  Where would the lake be for the town I said reminded me of Tahoe? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

That would be the place where Jacob’s Ladder and the Golf Course are?   X fork of the Y? — /* Sandy Pittendrigh                  –oO0  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy  * http://www.avicom.net/sandy  */

Response:

Another nice place is when you go into Idaho from Montana over the Lolo Pass. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GIVE MY FLY FISHING BOOKS A NEW HOME Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking. Stop motivating me, please!  I’ve already got a whole pile of maps and books about Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, BC, Alaska, New Zealand, and Patagonia (along with a collection of books and CDs about self-taught Spanish).  I racked up 1000 miles on my truck last weekend, and 35 miles on my tennis shoes seeking out some of the places on those maps.  The last thing I need is someone motivating me to buy another damned map! Stop it! — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition Email).  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

Response:

: Well Rick, I can’t find my map just yet but I would have to believe : that the creek is just north of Galena Summit.  At least I think that : is what it is called.  It is the pass between Ketchum and Stanley.   Nice try, I know the area a little, but it is not the spot I was talking about.  Where would the lake be for the town I said reminded me of Tahoe?

I guess the Salmon comment must have had me looking South instead of North.  Perhaps I should have been looking more towards Sandpoint. Gotta go, I am headed up to Red Ives and some (hopefully) hungry cutts. Marty P.E.T.A (People for the Ethical Termination of Antihunters)

Response:

20 miles of *the* place where the 2-5 pounders are found. That spot is below a small damn, and is on a river that to my knowledge, was the last river in the US to be successfully rafted [in] 1975. the section of the river I am talking about with the 2-5 pounders is in a

stretch of the river – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -where a canoe can easily navigate and is above the nasty part. Further, this spot is on one of the two major N-S highways in the state. It is not in the part of Idaho I usually write about. It is near a town where I thought, "wow… this is exactly what Tahoe looked like 20 years ago." It is in a valley with its floor at about 5000 feet. Near the spring creek, I was able to step across one of the (former) greatest salmon spawning rivers in the US. This place where I was able to step across this river is at least 600 miles from the ocean. I then drove to a spot on this same river where I was not able to throw a rock across it (because it is over 100 yards wide.) This river collects a *lot* of very pure water on its trip to the ocean.

Lot’s of rich facts, and I’m sure with a little sluething, the location of this spring creek is quite detectable. Of course, in trying to figure out where this gem of a spring creek is, your eyes would be pouring over the locations of more good fishing water than you could possibly cover. Mitch

Response:

: If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US : 12.   OK, fish the Lochsa of you must, but stay away from its sister river, the Selway.  That is one crappy river.  In fact, although few know it, it is probably the crappiest trout stream in the US.  It is a looooooser. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: I apologize, I left out some important detail.  By W Idaho I ment Boise, : and the fastest route takes me through East Idaho.  That does take me : past the streams that I mentioned.  The Panhandle route to Boise would : be longer, but more scenic.  Thanks for the information. Boise is south Idaho. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Try the beaverhead in southwest montana just outside of dillon.  Fish near the dam on Clark Canyon resevoir.  Big, Big BIG fish.  Usually crowded but easy access for an afternoon of fishing.  Did I mention big fish? Matthew           Matthew W Kaphan    http://home.sprintmail.com/~mwk            Silverdale, WA

Response:

"THE ROOT!!!" If you are in Helena….. ya better swing down to Hamilton and fish the  "Bitterroot!!" "The most under rated river in Montana" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

Response:

Having read many posts from this self-styled non-potato farmer, I read this as high praise for the Selway and I am adding it to my Summer ‘98 itinerary.  Personally, I’ve never done well on the Lochsa. Phil Holt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US : 12. OK, fish the Lochsa of you must, but stay away from its sister river, the Selway.  That is one crappy river.  In fact, although few know it, it is probably the crappiest trout stream in the US.  It is a looooooser. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: Having read many posts from this self-styled non-potato farmer, I read this as high praise for the : Selway and I am adding it to my Summer ‘98 itinerary.  Personally, I’ve never done well on the Lochsa. I am no farmer.  That dot at the end is a period, so the sentence should read, "I am no farmer period."  Potatoes or anything else. Having straightened that out… See?  I told you the Lochsa was crummy and now I am telling you the Selway is even crummier. But on another note… I found a new stream today.  (Can anyone really believe it?)  It is a spring creek, comes complete with one of those pipes coming out of the side of a hill where people stop and fill up their water jugs.  I saw it from the road, and simply dropped over the side and walked it aways.  Lots of clearly visible trout is "gin clear" water (added to piss Tim off.)  Big fish too.  Not on a major road, but on a paved road.  (Should be easy to find since Idaho only has about 5.)  Absolutely nobody on the 10 miles of water I checked out. Odd… I thought.  On the road, big, easily spotted fish and no fisherfolk.  While I was standing around, looking like a non-potato farmer, three people on horseback rode up.  (Yep, real people, not dude ranchers or anything like that.  Just normal Idaho people, doing what Idaho people often do on a Sunday.  When they are not growing spuds, that is.)  So I asked, and they answered… nobody fishes that creek they said. And then I realized why.  First, publicity is not our strong suit.  (You probably didn’t even know that the odds are 50% that the McD’s french fry you ate last week is really a Idaho fry.  See, we don’t tell.)  Second, and this is  probably the real reason, I saw a group of people in the town closest  to this creek routinely pulling out 2-5 pounders at a location that *is*  right on a major road.  The folks who want to meat fish, must drive by this location to get to the spring creek I’m not telling you about.  And this ain’t no fish story… 2-5 pounders if they want them.  The third reason is that this is not "fly-fishing" territory.  Slimy wriggly things are the bait of choice. OK, pull out those maps.  One hint is that the spring creek is within 20 miles of the place where the 2-5 pounders are found.  That spot is below a small damn, and is on a river that to my knowledge, was the last river in the US to be successfully rafted.  I mean nobody was able to remain in a watercraft over the entire length of the river until 1975. Can you blieve that?  1975.  It is an amazing river.  (OK, perhaps that clue will help only Jon M.)   One other thing, the section of the river I am talking about with the 2-5 pounders is in a stretch of the river where a canoe can easily navigate and is above the nasty part.  Further, this spot is on one of the two major N-S highways in the state.  It is not in the part of Idaho I usually write about.  It is near a town where I thought, "wow… this is exactly what Tahoe looked like 20 years ago."  It is in a valley with its floor at about 5000 feet. OK, one other clue.  Near the spring creek, I was able to step across one of the (former) greatest salmon spawning rivers in the US.  To my knowledge, it is the farthest an ocean dwelling salmon swims (in the US) to spawn.  This place where I was able to step across this river is at least 600 miles from the ocean.  (Wow!  Some fish.)  I then drove to a spot on this same river where I was not able to throw a rock across it (because it is over 100 yards wide.)  This river collects a *lot* of very pure water on its trip to the ocean.   OK, that is Idaho trivia for today.  If you have an idea of the general location, let me know and I will tell you details if you are correct. I was more moved at finding this creek than I care to admit to you.  It is really amazing if you pause to consider it.  Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Knock it off, Rick.  This is cruel.

Response:

Another reason I made this post was to give a little notice just what a great part of the world Idaho is.  I’ve lived in Colorado, N. California and Washington, all are great places.  But I have not seen the beautiful, rugged, unspoiled and isolated country within the Idaho borders.   Take out a good map and look for yourself.  It is awesome. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax

  Joe Just now got home from the Madison. Last week snowed on my sorry ass , river up and off color. This week, cleared and dropped. Fishing was very good both weeks and the night I was to leave caddis where on the bloom. Firehole fished well  PMD’s. The fork between the falls was Hm  (Rained every day I was there and snowed twice to beat the band. Fish where everywhere …..good trip, wet and cold but good fishing) "You can tell when I’m being facetious because I use subliminal smileys."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -But on another note… I found a new stream today.  (Can anyone really believe it?)  It is a spring creek, comes complete with one of those pipes coming out of the side of a hill where people stop and fill up their water jugs.  I saw it from the road, and simply dropped over the side and walked it aways.  Lots of clearly visible trout is "gin clear" water (added to piss Tim off.)  Big fish too.  Not on a major road, but on a paved road.  (Should be easy to find since Idaho only has about 5.)  Absolutely nobody on the 10 miles of water I checked out. Odd… I thought.  On the road, big, easily spotted fish and no fisherfolk.  While I was standing around, looking like a non-potato farmer, three people on horseback rode up.  (Yep, real people, not dude ranchers or anything like that.  Just normal Idaho people, doing what Idaho people often do on a Sunday.  When they are not growing spuds, that is.)  So I asked, and they answered… nobody fishes that creek they said. And then I realized why.  First, publicity is not our strong suit.  (You probably didn’t even know that the odds are 50% that the McD’s french fry you ate last week is really a Idaho fry.  See, we don’t tell.)  Second, and this is  probably the real reason, I saw a group of people in the town closest  to this creek routinely pulling out 2-5 pounders at a location that *is*  right on a major road.  The folks who want to meat fish, must drive by this location to get to the spring creek I’m not telling you about.  And this ain’t no fish story… 2-5 pounders if they want them.  The third reason is that this is not "fly-fishing" territory.  Slimy wriggly things are the bait of choice. OK, pull out those maps.  One hint is that the spring creek is within 20 miles of the place where the 2-5 pounders are found.  That spot is below a small damn, and is on a river that to my knowledge, was the last river in the US to be successfully rafted.  I mean nobody was able to remain in a watercraft over the entire length of the river until 1975. Can you blieve that?  1975.  It is an amazing river.  (OK, perhaps that clue will help only Jon M.)   One other thing, the section of the river I am talking about with the 2-5 pounders is in a stretch of the river where a canoe can easily navigate and is above the nasty part.  Further, this spot is on one of the two major N-S highways in the state.  It is not in the part of Idaho I usually write about.  It is near a town where I thought, "wow… this is exactly what Tahoe looked like 20 years ago."  It is in a valley with its floor at about 5000 feet. OK, one other clue.  Near the spring creek, I was able to step across one of the (former) greatest salmon spawning rivers in the US.  To my knowledge, it is the farthest an ocean dwelling salmon swims (in the US) to spawn.  This place where I was able to step across this river is at least 600 miles from the ocean.  (Wow!  Some fish.)  I then drove to a spot on this same river where I was not able to throw a rock across it (because it is over 100 yards wide.)  This river collects a *lot* of very pure water on its trip to the ocean.   OK, that is Idaho trivia for today.  If you have an idea of the general location, let me know and I will tell you details if you are correct. I was more moved at finding this creek than I care to admit to you.  It is really amazing if you pause to consider it.  Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking.

Well Rick, I can’t find my map just yet but I would have to believe that the creek is just north of Galena Summit.  At least I think that is what it is called.  It is the pass between Ketchum and Stanley.  It is also, I believe, the divide between the Big Wood River and the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. This is spectacular country.  I honeymooned there with my wife(of course) but sadly, I didn’t take my fly rod.  Maybe next time I’m there I will have it. Marty P.E.T.A (People for the Ethical Termination of Antihunters)

Response:

I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax

Response:

I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax

If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

Response:

I’ve fished both SW Montana and Western Idaho.  i really enjoyed the Big Hole River between Wisdom and Wise River.  it’s accessible and wasn’t crowded at all.  you can go west from Wisdom and either head south into idaho or north a ways and then west into idaho over lolo pass.  Good luck.

Response:

I’ve fished both SW Montana and Western Idaho.  i really enjoyed the Big Hole River between Wisdom and Wise River.  it’s accessible and wasn’t crowded at all.  you can go west from Wisdom and either head south into idaho or north a ways and then west into idaho over lolo pass.  Good luck.

No, No, the Wise and the BigHole are both over crowded and have no fish. The campgrounds are terrible and I believe there was a meltdown at a powerplant nearby.  Don’t go there!! Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

I apologize, I left out some important detail.  By W Idaho I ment Boise, and the fastest route takes me through East Idaho.  That does take me past the streams that I mentioned.  The Panhandle route to Boise would be longer, but more scenic.  Thanks for the information. Joe Wax

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I will be making a car trip the week of 7/13 to visit relatives.  We will be driving from Helena MT to W Idaho.  Since I am the only fisherman in my family I won’t have as much time to spend fishing as I would like.  If you had a half a day where would you go?  Henry’s Fork, Gallatin, Beaverhead, Madison, Big Hole?  There are possible routes that take me past all of these.  I will probably avoid YNP (except West Yellowstone), to much out the way.  I would prefer stream fishing to still water and big fish aren’t important, I am an intermediate level FF. Joe Wax If you drive from Helena to Western Idaho you won’t be fishing any of the streams listed above.  I assume you mean eastern Idaha and SW Montana.  If your route takes you across the Panhandle of Idaho try the Locsha along US 12.  If you did mean eastern Idaho go ahead and fish the Madison and the Gallatin.  Both are good this time of year.  The weather has finally warmed up a bit and by the middle of the month it should be perfect.  If you like a challange try the Henry’s Fork.  Any shop in West Yellowstone can give you current conditions. Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho I apologize, I left out some important detail.  By W Idaho I ment Boise, and the fastest route takes me through East Idaho.  That does take me past the streams that I mentioned.  The Panhandle route to Boise would be longer, but more scenic.  Thanks for the information. Joe Wax

Got it!  You may even try the Fall River south of Ashton on US 20.   Doug — Doug & Tammy Stephens Bear Lake Valley, Idaho

Response:

Let us all remember there are still amazing and beautiful places we can discover.  The whole damn point of this goofy post is to motivate you to get out a map and go looking.

Stop motivating me, please!  I’ve already got a whole pile of maps and books about Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, BC, Alaska, New Zealand, and Patagonia (along with a collection of books and CDs about self-taught Spanish).  I racked up 1000 miles on my truck last weekend, and 35 miles on my tennis shoes seeking out some of the places on those maps.  The last thing I need is someone motivating me to buy another damned map! Stop it! — -Wayne Trzyna                           Fight spam! Join CAUCE (Coalition  http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~trzyna    See http://www.cauce.org/

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Question:

Who was it said ‘A woman is just a woman but a good cigar is a smoke’? Probably W.C. Fields or George Burns. Pete Marrow http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/scottish_ff_faq.htm

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I always offer my trout a Marlboro before I knock its head on a boulder…

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A smoker AND a fish murderer!! How many of your victims have accepted a last cigarette? — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always offer my trout a Marlboro before I knock its head on a boulder…

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A good fart is better than a good cigar. William Buchman

For the sake of future generations – think of the ozone layer! — Bill

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If you smoke after flyfishing, you’re doing it too fast. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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‘And a woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke.’ Rudyard Kipling. You should be ashamed<g. Who was it said ‘A woman is just a woman but a good cigar is a smoke’? Probably W.C. Fields or George Burns.

– Charlie…

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Drugs are for sick people. You said it, enjoy and be damned.

Oh Bill, you have such a BIG heart.  You’re so open minded I could just puke. </chaz

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Of course a good cigar *does* keep away black flies and PCJs.

Good Dave. Even a cheap cigar keeps the biter bugs away. Joel Axelrad

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William Buchman writes:

<<Many smokers are indeed courteous while a few seem to take pleasure in directing their smoke toward others. William Buchman Come on, Buchman.  Lighten up.  I smoked for 45 years and quit five years ago without any problems.  I have never seen a smoker getting his jollies by annoying others with his smoke, especially today.  Any smoke you get while fishing is thousands of times less dangerous than the exhaust smoke you inhaled driving to the stream.  The beauty of smoking outside is that you can position yourself so that the smoke blows away from you.  Ever tried that?  But walking down the street of any town or city is going to expose you to so much lung damage (as compared to cigarette smoke) that you should probably let your wife do all the shopping.  Never go to the mall, Buchman — way to much smoke (from cars and those %*& SUVs. <<<<<<<< Over the last few years, especially after retiring, I am able to keep away from smokers.  When working, I was very annoyed at meetings where one or two smokers could screw up a meeting of about 20 people. I am not conerned over health effects from second hand smoke. My present greatest exposure to smoke is at a swap meet I attend regularly.  If I see someone smoking, I try to avoid them. But every now and then I get an unpleasant surprise by inhaling the concentrated effluent from an unseen cigarette.  MOST ANNOYING!  Smokers do not realize how annoying their effluent can be.  I must admit that smokers purposely annoying other people was mostly a phenomenon associated with younger smokers. The big problem came with filter cigarettes.  Because it did filter out whatever it was that addicted people, stronger and smellier tobacco was used. While the effect on the smoker was not changed much, the unfortunate bystander took a big hit. William Buchman

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A good fart is better than a good cigar. William Buchman

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The trouble with the carcinogenic effects of tobacco is that it works too slowly.

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Buchman writes:

<<The trouble with the carcinogenic effects of tobacco is that it works too slowly. That’s what I like about you, Buchman — you’re all heart. Dave LaCourse

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Drugs are for sick people.

You said it, enjoy and be damned. — Bill

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Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

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Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

Nah, smoke all you want on roff<g. — Charlie…

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More "free speech". — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

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Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

Flames as well as smoke! — Bill

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Do we have to put up with anti-smoking idiots even on ROFF? Joel Axelrad

I’ve got a cigarette going right now!   Damn proud of it, too. And I think that the term "idiots" as joel posted is being way too kind.   Words like assholes, and pricks come to mind much more easily. I actually had to have a chat with my Gen Mgr and Human Resources person about it at work a couple weeks ago.  People were giving me shit constantly about it.  I asked them in that meeting that it be stopped permanently and immediately with this big smile on my face that suggested that a lawsuit totalling more than my companies net worth would be filed if it didn’t. It worked. I also smoke while fishing.  I have been known to accidently drop a butt in the river too, but that’s usually when a trout interupts my smoke break by choosing to hit my fly.  Pretty hard to put out a cigarrette and stick it in my vest when one of the leviathans of the South Platte is ripping line off my reel faster than I can think about it. I should also add that to compensate for may occaisional environmental faux pas I NEVER use those damned sticky foam bobbers that so many nymph fishers refer to a "strike indicators".  You find a lot more of those damned things littering the banks than cigarette butts. </chaz

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My only objection to people smoking safely and cleanly occurs when I breathe their effluent.  I would get pissed if they start a forest fire even if I cannot smell their smoke.  Unfortunately, the emitted crap can go a long way before it becomes innocuous.  As a courtesy, I would hope smokers would have the tact to avoid the situation where their smoke annoys others.  Many smokers are indeed courteous while a few seem to take pleasure in directing their smoke toward others. William Buchman

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Sense of humour failure,methinks! Pedanticism should be left to those who NEVER write anything that could be misconstrued, intentionally or

otherwise. Ahhh….joke ‘em if they can’t take a …. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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<snipped but VERY well said Of course a good cigar *does* keep away black flies and PCJs.

Oh yeah, better than smearing that DEET shit all over your skin. I’ve often felt that rolling up a fat one for a day astream an excellent addition to my arsenal. (before anyone says a word I want it to be known that I know it’s illegal as hell and I don’t give a damn, okay?  And there’s no law against talking about it.  And a note for the kids:  Drugs are for sick people.) It doesn’t improve my fishing one bit, and probably hurts more than helps a creel count, but it sure makes those bungholes that make noise about my cigarrette smoking a lot easier to take. </chaz

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William Buchman writes:

<<Many smokers are indeed courteous while a few seem to take pleasure in directing their smoke toward others. William Buchman Come on, Buchman.  Lighten up.  I smoked for 45 years and quit five years ago without any problems.  I have never seen a smoker getting his jollies by annoying others with his smoke, especially today.  Any smoke you get while fishing is thousands of times less dangerous than the exhaust smoke you inhaled driving to the stream.  The beauty of smoking outside is that you can position yourself so that the smoke blows away from you.  Ever tried that?  But walking down the street of any town or city is going to expose you to so much lung damage (as compared to cigarette smoke) that you should probably let your wife do all the shopping.  Never go to the mall, Buchman — way to much smoke (from cars and those %*& SUVs. Of course a good cigar *does* keep away black flies and PCJs. Dave LaCourse

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What I do have a problem with is telling young ROFF readers that a pipe, cigar, or chew is *mandatory* to the experience of flyfishing. Nonsense. No-one said it was mandatory.

What part of the following post do you not understand? Cigars or cigarettes are a strictly a no-no on the stream!   If you really want to "put on the dog" and fool the other flyfishermen into thinking that you know what you’re doing out on the stream, it is absolutely mandatory that you smoke a pipe. Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer. gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newscon04!prodigy.com!not-f or-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly HTH

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Sense of humour failure,methinks! Pedanticism should be left to those who NEVER write anything that could be misconstrued, intentionally or otherwise. — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I do have a problem with is telling young ROFF readers that a pipe, cigar, or chew is *mandatory* to the experience of flyfishing. Nonsense. No-one said it was mandatory. What part of the following post do you not understand? Cigars or cigarettes are a strictly a no-no on the stream!   If you really want to "put on the dog" and fool the other flyfishermen into thinking that you know what you’re doing out on the stream, it is absolutely mandatory that you smoke a pipe. Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer. gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newscon04!prodigy.com!not-f or-mail Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly HTH

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Question:

Give me a ‘desecrated fishery’ in solitude any day of the

But if it was "in solitude" it wouldn’t be desecrated.  My point is that desecration comes from problems much deeper than C&R.  I can show you plenty of desecrated C&K fisheries.  Have you fished the Miracle Mile? — -Wayne Trzyna

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[deleted] But you and I have both lived and fished in Colorado long enough to have seen fisheries desecrated long before the recent upsurge in the popularity of C&R flyfishing.  C&R the source of our problems?  Do you really believe that?

Yes I do.  Give me a ‘desecrated fishery’ in solitude any day of the week over a tailwater stock pond with hordes of fishermen. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g. pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

What about fishing in the salt? Most saltwater fly fishing is c&r. –tony

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pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Most of them are extremely crowded fish farms. Willi

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We nailed 19-20 inch cutts this weekend.  And I’ll be god damned if I’ll tell any pure C&R-er where they are.  You see, a C&K-er might go nail a few, but a C&R-er is likely to commercialize the place and have my best friend Dave banned from ever going there. See the danger ?

Well, yes and no.  I’ve been following your arguments for several years, Tim, and while I see your point on some stuff, there is one major weakness: Unable to deal with the bigger problems of commercialization, development, and over-crowding of fisheries, you constantly scape-goat C&R. C&R is a symptom, not a cause.  It is no surprise that its religious fervor has grown greatest at high-visibility destination fisheries, since the outfitters there were quick to recognize that their livelihood was being threatened by over-fishing. But the problems of commercialization, development, and crowding are bigger than just fly-fishing or C&R.   There is always some unwitting well-meaning soul who will tell his friends about a good fishery, and on down the line, some blatantly selfish bastard seeking to profit by exploiting an area The latter comes in many forms, including real-estate developers and slimey policitians financing tax-cuts by selling or leasing off public assets. It’s a big problem, and we seem only to loose ground.  With such frustrating problems it’s easy to throw up our hands and seek a scape-goat.  I guess yours is C&R. But you and I have both lived and fished in Colorado long enough to have seen fisheries desecrated long before the recent upsurge in the popularity of C&R flyfishing.  C&R the source of our problems?  Do you really believe that?  I admit, the whole C&R fly-fishing "scene" is tightly interwoven with the problem and makes a great symbol for it.  But it’s a symtom.  You can eliminate C&R, but you won’t eliminate the problem. Your best bet is not to tell *anyone* about your secret cutthroat hole. It has nothing to do with C&R.  Zebco has a bigger cash-flow than Sage. — -Wayne Trzyna

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and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g.

pure C&R stretches are more like fish farms then real fishing to me. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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[a very typical multi use urban watershed described, deleted] While your point may apply in other places or conditions, in this case I think: Yes, the non-C&R public does not deserve access to their land.

I’m sorry Steve, but this really, really is what bugs me about pure C&R fishing.  Elitism.  Pure and simple.  I watched my friend Dave Erickson, a swede with fish blood in his veins, pick the cans and crap out of someone elses camp pit yesterday as we packed out…. Dave is a troller, a flyfisher, a bait fisher, a lure caster… No, Dave is just an angler…and he deserves access to that stretch you described.  As much or more then even you… And, I’ll tell you what… We nailed 19-20 inch cutts this weekend.  And I’ll be god damned if I’ll tell any pure C&R-er where they are.  You see, a C&K-er might go nail a few, but a C&R-er is likely to commercialize the place and have my best friend Dave banned from ever going there. See the danger ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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[deleted] How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question). Fish at high altitude have a rough go of it.  Brookies reproduce like guppies and there is not enough food (because of mommy nature) and not enough predation (because of daddy dearest).

I have fished some high altitude steams and lakes (ponds really) in Colorado but none of them were C&R. In fact I don’t think I have ever fished in a ‘pure’ C&R stream, and the only pure C&K places I have seen are fish farms<g. — Charlie…

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…snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In terms of multiple use of the waterway and crap in the bushes, why is C&R the answer to a littering problem…?  This has come up before and it bugs me. It is saying to the general public that does not flyfish that they are not welcome on their own public land. Finally…*pure* C&R is never necessary, this is plain scientific fact.  "Restricted Selective Harvest" is a much much better watch phrase for our community, IMO as it is based in science and not philosophy and can not be targetted s such. Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

My home water is a mountain stream on "public" land at high elevation.  The trout population is mostly rainbow with a few cutts and crosses up high, and a few Dolly Varden.  We also have a summer steelhead and salmon run.  All the trout are wild and, because of the elevation, and the resulting short season, the fish must struggle a bit to survive.  The substrate is relatively alkaline however, so the fish food is good when the water finally warms up.  Lots of caddis, stone and mays, as well a "mountain" terrestrials — mostly termites and ants.  I’ve also seen a few sculpins.  Water level varies widely, from 500+ cfs in winter and spring, to 50-70 cfs in autumn. This stream’s drainage is also a recreation destination for four-wheelers and campers who live in the nearby metropolis, and is also a popular hunting area.  Much of the drainage has been logged in that last thirty years and the only old-growth forest remaining occurs in small patches — very few as large as a full section. This little speech serves as preface for my point: I have never seen a C&R fly fisher litter the stream or vandalize the forest.  I have seen all manner of disgusting behavior from other users.  Abandoned cars are the largest (and most easily removed) of the garbage that is dumped along the river, and trees have been hacked or shot down at every "campsite".  It’s amazing what a semi-automatic rifle will do to a stand of young firs.  I have also seen dead herons, crows, kites and ouzels.  I have seen four-wheel drive vehicles driving up the middle of the stream though perfect spawning beds.  I have also seen ten little six-inch or less rainbows laid out in a frying pan over a fire next to the river.  The limit on this steam is 2 over 12. I spend ten to thirty hours a week on this stream and I know most of the C&R fishers who frequent it.  None of them are among the criminal population mentioned above.   While your point may apply in other places or conditions, in this case I think: Yes, the non-C&R public does not deserve access to their land. Steve

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[lots deleted] I think Selective Harvest in the situation described is completely ethical, while in a body with low populations, C&R makes more sense.

Isn’t pure C&R a form of Selective Harvest when that mortality which is incidental to pure C&R equals that culling which is optimal for maintaining or increasing the quality of a fishery.  If any amount of culling would be detrimental, then the fishery should be closed (to wit the greenies in RMNP) and not open to number counting C&R fanatics. I’d be happy if we shit-canned the phrase C&R in favor of selective harvest… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  

I just found out the other day the the Chatooga has some rather historical significance as well.  It’s where Deliverance was filmed. John Fereira

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: : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R : :  on a species of wild fish when that population : :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." : Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a : natural predator of the trout? The other post did a good job of questioning your reasoning of us not being a natural predator, but if you still think we aren’t, why make it a point anyways? Stunted western brook trout populations certainly aren’t "natural", and for that matter bows (mostly) and browns aren’t either. : I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural : selection.   In many of these populations there *are no* big fish, no gill-based predators. : This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this : topic.   Go to your room Tim. Watch out for the rebound  [sed s/Tim/Rick/g] JonCook.

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: : How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest : question). Umm, good spawning habitat and not enough fish-eating predators? Surely you’ve caught stunted, big-headed [brookies, bluegill, bass, etc] somewhere? JonCook.

Actually not in ‘the wild’. I have fished farm ponds with an overpopulation of bluegill but they usually just poisoned the pond and restocked it. Still not sure what that has to do with C&R vs C&K, what if there were no fishing at all? Seems like the situation would take care of itself over time. — Charlie…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.   I just found out the other day the the Chatooga has some rather historical significance as well.  It’s where Deliverance was filmed. John Fereira

The movie was also filmed on the Talulla River (west of the Chatooga). I think that the big falls that Bert and the boys went over was on the Talulla. I used to fish a lot on the Talulla over twenty years ago when I lived in Georgia. North Georgia had some really pretty trout waters, I hope that it still does.

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[deleted] How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question).

Fish at high altitude have a rough go of it.  Brookies reproduce like guppies and there is not enough food (because of mommy nature) and not enough predation (because of daddy dearest). — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Charlie Choc writes: <<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  A majority of the fishermen were bait chuckers and spin casters.  The Chatooga is one of the few cold water rivers in Georgia capable of sustaining temperatures below 74 degrees, besides tailwaters (Chatahoochi below Bufford Dam for instance).  The pity of it is that the state has not made the Chatooga a catch and release river.  I know there is controversy on ROFF about catch and release, but on the Chatooga, it would make sense.  A majority of the fish released are caught within 24 hours.  But the thing that concerns me is the up-keep of the river.  The area around Burrells Ford is one giant trash heap.  Crap in the water, the woods, the road, you name it.  I walked upstream for about two miles before I got away from the chaos that the Chatooga has become.  It is a wonderfully beautiful river, not unlike what you might find in Maine.  If the state of Georgia does not do something quickly, they will lose this natural waterway.  Make it catch and release — no more stocking above the Rt 28 bridge.  If they don’t, it will soon look like the fair ground on Monday morning after the circus has left.

Couple O’ Questions and an observation… What is the biggest fish taken from Chatooga each year ? What would the effect of a selective harvest of say 1 fish of this size per day per angler, all others must be released, regulation be ? Do the fish reproduce successfully in the Chatooga ? In terms of multiple use of the waterway and crap in the bushes, why is C&R the answer to a littering problem…?  This has come up before and it bugs me. It is saying to the general public that does not flyfish that they are not welcome on their own public land. Finally…*pure* C&R is never necessary, this is plain scientific fact.  "Restricted Selective Harvest" is a much much better watch phrase for our community, IMO as it is based in science and not philosophy and can not be targetted s such. Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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From my journal… "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R  on a species of wild fish when that population  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." In other words, I will try not to throw rubber bones to starving dogs… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation."

Consider that soon the human race will be stunted.  Do you think we’ll have big heads and little bodies? Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

Hmm.   It’s a plausible theory, Rick, but only a theory.  I know of many, many alpine lakes that are overpopulated with stunted fish.  There is size-threshold beyond which the fish just don’t grow. I’ve seen this condition with each of the following species:         brookies  (brookies, brookies, and more brookies)         cutts         bows         goldens The limiting factor is not genetic, either.  For instance the Montana dept of fish and game takes goldens out of Sylvan lake, where they are stunted, and plants them in other lakes where they grow to large sizes. Now that you mention it, I can’t understand why predation doesn’t solve the problem. — -Wayne Trzyna (Bobber Boy)

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From my journal… "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R on a species of wild fish when that population is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." In other words, I will try not to throw rubber bones to starving dogs…

How does that "overcrowded and food deficit situation" occur? (honest question). I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones. That seems to be about as pur C&K as one can get<g. Is it the ‘wild fish’ designation that makes the difference? — Charlie…

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

I just don’t think you read it… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout?

Hmmm, are bears a natural predator of the trout?  They don’t have gills. What about Herons or other kinds of birds that feed on fish.  They don’t have gills either.  Should we therefore deem these animals to be somehow in the wrong to catch fish.  Shall I proceed further?  Would we consider hunting regulations to be unethical when, due to an increase in population the bag limit increases?  Is this not the same issue? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim.

I’m sorry, but, this is one of the strongest arguments which could be presented on this subject.  Perhaps we should apply this "C&R" concept to hunting.  I’m sure many hunters would agree that "the thrill of the hunt" is the most important part of hunting and the game they get to keep afterwards for food is a pleasurable byproduct of the hunt.  Should we therefore define hunters who kill their quarry unethical?  Maybe we shouldn’t hunt deer because we don’t have antlers.  Should hunters be imposed with regulations which would require them to only use tranquilizer guns to shoot the game?  They could then "release" the game to be hunted again at a later date. It should be our ethical responsibility to catch and kill fish when they are in an overpopulated, undernourished environment.  The results otherwise will end in large numbers of fish dying.  Then, depending upon extent of the fish kill, there is the time of repopulation.  It is more "humane" (take that as you may) to be allowed to "remove" a certain number of the population of any game species to prevent these things from happening. Mr. Fletcher, the logic which you are using to argue your point is fundamentally flawed.  Tim’s post could not have been more on track. I apologize to anyone who found the length of this response offensive.  I do not apologize for the content. John

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If I remember my basic biology right, there may not be any big fish to do the natural selection. Each body of water has a carrying capacity of so many pounds per acre of life. If that number was, say, 10 lbs. then there could be one 10 lb. fish, 10 one lb. fish or 100 one-tenth pound fish. Mother Nature doesn’t care. When the body of water reaches capacity, fish populations start to stunt and all you have are small fish. As far as mankind being a natural predator for trout, we rank right up there with bears, raccoons, eagles and many other critters without gills. I think Selective Harvest in the situation described is completely ethical, while in a body with low populations, C&R makes more sense. — Web-Guides.com on the Internet at — http://web-guides.com FREE sample issue, subscription to Outdoor Adventure Digest     Webtours, Outdoor Adventures, ABC Books and more<< – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : From my journal… : "It should be considered unethical to practice pure C&R :  on a species of wild fish when that population :  is in a overcrowded and food deficit situation." Why?  We do not have gills (at least I don’t.)  Are you sure we are a natural predator of the trout? I doubt the big fish practice C&R… let them do the natural selection.  This is among the weakest arguments you have provided on this topic.   Go to your room Tim. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Charlie Choc writes:

<<I fish mostly in N GA where the streams are primarily stocked and "catch and stock freezer" is practiced. Many times I have seen folks following the stock trucks around and fishing out the pools, often ‘releasing’ smaller fish from their stringers to make room for bigger ones I had the pleasure of fishing the Chatooga River in N.E Ga this past March and saw the exact same thing.  A majority of the fishermen were bait chuckers and spin casters.  The Chatooga is one of the few cold water rivers in Georgia capable of sustaining temperatures below 74 degrees, besides tailwaters (Chatahoochi below Bufford Dam for instance).  The pity of it is that the state has not made the Chatooga a catch and release river.  I know there is controversy on ROFF about catch and release, but on the Chatooga, it would make sense.  A majority of the fish released are caught within 24 hours.  But the thing that concerns me is the up-keep of the river.  The area around Burrells Ford is one giant trash heap.  Crap in the water, the woods, the road, you name it.  I walked upstream for about two miles before I got away from the chaos that the Chatooga has become.  It is a wonderfully beautiful river, not unlike what you might find in Maine.  If the state of Georgia does not do something quickly, they will lose this natural waterway.  Make it catch and release — no more stocking above the Rt 28 bridge.  If they don’t, it will soon look like the fair ground on Monday morning after the circus has left. Dave LaCourse

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Question:

Thinking of taking the family to Fla for a week in Feb.  I would appreciate any suggestions for a flyfisher (me) and two non-fishers (my wife and 6 yr. old daughter).  We’ve done the Keys and were thinking of the West coast, maybe Sanibel???

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Strongly encourage you to investigate Gasparilla Island/Boca Grande.  I traveled there before becoming a fly fisherman and love the place because it is the antithesis of high-rise condo beach resorts.  To me it feels like most of FL must have been in the early part of this century.  If you want the fast lane go somewhere else.  For geographic perspective, Gasparilla is roughly two offshore islands north of Sanibel. Boca Grande claims to be the tarpon capital of the world.  Don’t know how much local boosterism that relies on, but judging by the number of fishing guides something’s going on under water.  As I said I haven’t fished there, but have since investigated because I plan to return.  I’ll try to answer any specific questions you may have. Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thinking of taking the family to Fla for a week in Feb.  I would appreciate any suggestions for a flyfisher (me) and two non-fishers (my wife and 6 yr. old daughter).  We’ve done the Keys and were thinking of the West coast, maybe Sanibel???

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Question:

These references to the periodic cicada have me excited for the next time I stumble on the emergence of a cicada "brood".  There are two types of periodic cicadas (as opposed to the few annual cicadas that emerge each year), the 17 year and the 13 year cicadas.  I encountered one of them in 1991 in central PA.  An extraordinary number of cicadas filled the stream valley in late may.  The zip zip sound of the few annual cicadas in the back yard was replaced by a constant whirrring sound as literally millions emerged.  Those that fell onto the water dissapeared in a swirl as the largest of the trout (those only brought to the surface by the Green Drakes) sucked them under with no problem.  Our hearts pounded as we tried our largest floating flies to attract them.  In the end our imitations were not good enough, but my new spun deer hair bodied flies with red squirrel tail wings will always be somewhere in my fly box – just in case….   As for emergence throughout the Eastern U.S., I believe that each individual brood (covering some limited geography) has its own cycle.  My fishing buddy and I are in the process of writing to Penn State University to learn whether a brood chart is available for PA. Jeff Shafer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   An article in today’s paper discusses the imminent hatch in the Eastern   U.S. of billions of cicadas in their 17 year cycle. They are huge, winged   insects and I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what it   was like during the last hatch in ‘79 ? Any suggested strategies or fly   patterns we can use ? Do the trout readily take them ?  They do have a tendency to fall in the water.  I’ve seen trout take them on  the Gunpowder but you could probably count on catfish, bass, and just about  anything big enough to eat them taking one.  A large unweighted muddler should  have a passable contour and when properly presented should make the necessary  ’plopping’ sound to initiate a strike.  It make take a few days for the fish  to realize that the cicadas are food since they are big enough to scare off the  less aggressive fish.    –      David J. Ebinger                     330-453-5180      Ebinger Equipment Co.                Fax 453-7113      http://www.bright.net/~ebco/

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writes: Spent the summer on Cape Cod in 79 and the Circadia hatch was wild. Dark brown beetle looking creatures if I remember. But hey it’s been a while. The hatch is incredible as it matures in about three days. They don’t stay around too long. About a week was the total duration. I’m sure the trout take them but for the short period ot time the hatch is around it’s not worth tying for.

No way! I was in Mashpee in 79 and the browns on Mashpee-Wakeby killed the Cicadas during the entire hatch and could be fooled long afterward. I ran the 4-H camp there and fished nearly every day. Smallmouth were especially suseptable to any large bodied fly during that hatch. Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

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An article in today’s paper discusses the imminent hatch in the Eastern U.S. of billions of cicadas in their 17 year cycle. They are huge, winged insects and I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what it was like during the last hatch in ‘79 ? Any suggested strategies or fly patterns we can use ? Do the trout readily take them ?

They do have a tendency to fall in the water.  I’ve seen trout take them on the Gunpowder but you could probably count on catfish, bass, and just about anything big enough to eat them taking one.  A large unweighted muddler should have a passable contour and when properly presented should make the necessary ‘plopping’ sound to initiate a strike.  It make take a few days for the fish to realize that the cicadas are food since they are big enough to scare off the less aggressive fish.   —     David J. Ebinger                     330-453-5180     Ebinger Equipment Co.                Fax 453-7113     http://www.bright.net/~ebco/

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Spent the summer on Cape Cod in 79 and the Circadia hatch was wild. Dark brown beetle looking creatures if I remember. But hey it’s been a while. The hatch is incredible as it matures in about three days. They don’t stay around too long. About a week was the total duration. I’m sure the trout take them but for the short period ot time the hatch is around it’s not worth tying for.

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An article in today’s paper discusses the imminent hatch in the Eastern   U.S. of billions of cicadas in their 17 year cycle. They are huge, winged insects and I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on what it was like during the last hatch in ‘79 ? Any suggested strategies or fly patterns we can use ? Do the trout readily take them ?

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Question:

Before the present day method of line nomenclature (e.g. WT5, DT6…etc..) there was a different way to describe line weights and types. Does anyone have details on the old system? I run across old lines and rods and would like to know exactly what I am looking at.

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Bruce Richards from Scientific Anglers has written a short book on Modern Fly Lines as part of Lefty Kreh’s Little Library of Fly Fishing.  It has a biref section (pp. 32-37) on standardization of fly line weights, including a translation table. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Before the present day method of line nomenclature (e.g. WT5, DT6…etc..) there was a different way to describe line weights and types. Does anyone have details on the old system? I run across old lines and rods and would like to know exactly what I am looking at.

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Try McClaines Fishing Encyclopedia, I think he has a run down on this subject. Phil

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