Question:

If one hand is clapping, what is the other hand doing to generate the applause?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . .

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You don’t want to know about Opie’s sex life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If one hand is clapping, what is the other hand doing to generate the applause?

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snip Well said Grasshopper. Dave

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Why would you want to understand it, and why do you hate America? Tim

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

It has been asked, "How should those who enter The path apply their minds?" All things are originally uncreated And presently undying. Just let your mind be free; You don’t have to restrain it. See directly and hear directly; Come directly and go directly. When you must go, then go; When you must stay, then stay. – Niu-t’ou Hui-chung (683-769)

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I believe that the current minimum length of time required, is from the DEC flyfishing list days to present.  Anything shorter is will result in a less than complete understanding.  One large short cut that has been found to be effective in shortening this is, to killfile any and all posts by muskie and He Who Must Not Be Named (GG,Bamboorods  and his various incarnations). I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

– Chris Richer chrisratnostormspamdotca

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Who knows?   Best to ignore the perceived personalities, and just read the posts, or not, depending on your current inclination. It is rare to understand anyone, much less an electronic projection of someone, it is easier to simply accept some things. TL MC

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If you ever think you have figured this place out, or have a grip on the relative personas, you should be very concerned about your own mental state. jh

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group?   After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

If you ever do understand this place, you will become bored, and wander off. — Charles Davis    K4SWB <I’m The NRA

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Nope, Saturday Night Live characters don’t make it.  Try Monty Python or Firesign Theatre references next time.

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group?   After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

About 2 seconds…well, if you mean understanding that, like life its ownself, there are quite a mix of people and personalities, and not all are going to act, write, think, or otherwise do what another might wish or expect…of course, if you mean understand completely each and every post and reply….BWAHAHAHAHA…. HTH, R …who would suggest a firm understanding of the existence of, and a passing familiarity with, Lewis Carroll, HST, Oscar Wilde, Dr. Seuss, satirical comedy, with a special nod to that of America, Canada, and the UK, as well as the works of Gierach, Hill, McManus, Jenkins, and too-long a list of fishing writers, whilst not forgetting Ken Kesey and Donald Segretti…no, it won’t allow for understanding, but it’d help…hey, who says a potatoe is a terrible thing to mind?  Wait a minute…that doesn’t sound quite right…oh, well…please always remember, and don’t ever forget, because I’ll only say this once: HOBGOBLINS!  GREAT, WRITHING, SEETHING HOBGOBLINS!…and they’ve gotten their drunken paws, such as they are, on the controls…

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

Should take about four to six hours.  Any more than that, you got a real problem.  How ya doin’ so far? Wolfgang

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. About 2 seconds…well, if you mean understanding that, like life its ownself, there are quite a mix of people and personalities, and not all are going to act, write, think, or otherwise do what another might wish or expect…of course, if you mean understand completely each and every post and reply….BWAHAHAHAHA…. HTH, R …who would suggest a firm understanding of the existence of, and a passing familiarity with, Lewis Carroll, HST, Oscar Wilde, Dr. Seuss, satirical comedy, with a special nod to that of America, Canada, and the UK, as well as the works of Gierach, Hill, McManus, Jenkins, and too-long a list of fishing writers, whilst not forgetting Ken Kesey and Donald Segretti…no, it won’t allow for understanding, but it’d help…hey, who says a potatoe is a terrible thing to mind?  Wait a minute…that doesn’t sound quite right…oh, well…please always remember, and don’t ever forget, because I’ll only say this once: HOBGOBLINS!  GREAT, WRITHING, SEETHING HOBGOBLINS!…and they’ve gotten their drunken paws, such as they are, on the controls…

Uhh . . .I was gunna come out of lurking . . . . crap . . . couldn’t get past the "potatoe".  . . . geesh! . . . back to the text books . . . I guess . . . or  . . . somethin’. DaveMohnsen Denver

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy.

That’s just it CaveXman.  Don’t try to figure out anything.  Everyone just leaves it to Darwin.  Now, figure that one out. George Gehrke "the gent with keyboard button cuff links"

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. That’s just it CaveXman.  Don’t try to figure out anything.  Everyone just leaves it to Darwin.  Now, figure that one out.

Darwin?  Isn’t he the guy inside the fish sign on cars? — remove all x and y’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary.

Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . .

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . .

…clapping you upside the head, as you get bitch-slapped by somebody who took umbrage at something you posted… Kevin

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Doh!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . . …clapping you upside the head, as you get bitch-slapped by somebody who took umbrage at something you posted… Kevin

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary. Grasshopper, you must understand the sound of one hand clapping . . . …clapping you upside the head, as you get bitch-slapped by somebody who took umbrage at something you posted…

Shut up you pompous, hypocritical sissy. p.s. Do I know you?

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I believe that the current minimum length of time required, is from the DEC flyfishing list days to present.  Anything shorter is will result in a less than complete understanding.  One large short cut that has been found to be effective in shortening this is, to killfile any and all posts by muskie and He Who Must Not Be Named (GG,Bamboorods  and his various incarnations).

Chris you were a DEC Flyfishing notes guy? Don’t remember you… Flyfish AKA Dave the ordealmaster

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Like most things in life, as soon as you understand it, it changes. Everything is temporary.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group? After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. About 2 seconds…well, if you mean understanding that, like life its ownself, there are quite a mix of people and personalities, and not all are going to act, write, think, or otherwise do what another might wish or expect…of course, if you mean understand completely each and every post and reply….BWAHAHAHAHA…. HTH, R …who would suggest a firm understanding of the existence of, and a passing familiarity with, Lewis Carroll, HST, Oscar Wilde, Dr. Seuss, satirical comedy, with a special nod to that of America, Canada, and the UK, as well as the works of Gierach, Hill, McManus, Jenkins, and too-long a list of fishing writers, whilst not forgetting Ken Kesey and Donald Segretti…no, it won’t allow for understanding, but it’d help…hey, who says a potatoe is a terrible thing to mind?  Wait a minute…that doesn’t sound quite right…oh, well…please always remember, and don’t ever forget, because I’ll only say this once: HOBGOBLINS!  GREAT, WRITHING, SEETHING HOBGOBLINS!…and they’ve gotten their drunken paws, such as they are, on the controls… Uhh . . .I was gunna come out of lurking . . . . crap . . . couldn’t get past the "potatoe".  . . . geesh! . . . back to the text books . . . I guess . . . or  . . . somethin’. DaveMohnsen Denver

Hey, a polite newcomer…see, you never know what’s gonna happen next…welcome aboard, and here’s an explanation…it’s really a really obscure reference to some stuff Dan Quayle said/did…remember the "potatoe" and "a waste is terrible thing to mind" stuff?   Well, it was my decidedly indirect way of implying that a fair amount of both substantive and trivial off-topic knowledge is helpful, if one wishes to engage in that aspect of ROFF, such as the political, er, discussions/riots.   As to the rest, it’s simply an-out-of-the-norm way of saying "hey, ROFF can be a strange place at times, and often as not, NOBODY understands everything," with some TV show catch phrases tossed in (see above).  Also remember (or learn) that ROFF, as a whole, almost never completely agrees on what’s funny, not funny, (in)appropriate, sick, SPAM, or much of anything else save two, or maybe even just one: we all seem to have a love of (fly) fishing (although what exactly defines "fly fishing" is often a source of disagreement, so maybe even that doesn’t even count), and on some level, like reading ROFF… TC, R

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I’m generally frightened and confused by ROFF and was wondering how long it takes to understand the personalities that frequent this group?   After all, I’m just a poor caveman software guy. — remove all x’s for reply email. To worry is folly so let us be jolly.

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Question:

I have 4 floating fly lines (DT5 and DT4 sizes) that have been on reels since they were last used in 1985.  They were never used very hard (maybe 2 to 3 weeks each year for about 5 years), and I would like to save them if I can.  I’m not sure of the manufacturer, but I know they were "premier" lines. My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

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I have 4 floating fly lines (DT5 and DT4 sizes) that have been on reels since they were last used in 1985.  They were never used very hard (maybe 2 to 3 weeks each year for about 5 years), and I would like to save them if I can.  I’m not sure of the manufacturer, but I know they were "premier" lines. My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

I managed to save an old level sinking line that I found in my mum’s basement.  I had purchased the line in ‘70 and tried it a few times then wound it up in a skein and tossed it in a box.  When I found it, it was hopelessly kinked and dirty.  After repeated applications, this cheap line ended up looking new. I lated cut it up and used it for sinking heads. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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You could try washing them in plain soap and water, drying them, and coating them. 3M makes a nice line cleaning kit. You may be able to remove the curls by holding about 3-4 feet of  between your hands, pulling tightly, the taking the next 3-4 feet and repeating. Tim Lysyk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

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there are a number of good line treatment products on the market that should help restore your line – Russ Peak’s Glide works well as does Gherke’s Pz. Apply a small amount to a clean soft cloth and run the line through the cloth several times under hand tension. Prior washing in mild soapy water and running through a moist cloth will remove a lot of dirt as well. recently I’ve found Scotch brand micro fibre cloths very effective for cleaning fly lines. RalphH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have 4 floating fly lines (DT5 and DT4 sizes) that have been on reels since they were last used in 1985.  They were never used very hard (maybe 2 to 3 weeks each year for about 5 years), and I would like to save them if I can.  I’m not sure of the manufacturer, but I know they were "premier" lines. My concerns are (1) they are dirty and will not float, and (2) they will have a permamnent "curly" set to the size of the spool.  Can they be salvaged (cleaned and straightened), and how?

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  Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt?

I prefer a 3WF with my 3WT Three Forks rod. Some people (at least one, anyway) think that WF lines are a marketing scam, and that you’re a fool unless you buy a DT and cut it in half.

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I prefer a 3WF with my 3WT Three Forks rod. Some people (at least one, anyway) think that WF lines are a marketing scam, and that you’re a fool unless you buy a DT and cut it in half.

Well, I ain’t no fool and I didn’t cut my DT in half.  I folded it over and can now cast two flies without using a dropper.  Hah!  Doesn’t load very well though.  Kinda gets stuck in the guides. Ya, know, sitting here, writing this, I think of those long nights around a campfire at a clave and trying to figure out who would jump up and try this after it was mentioned.  Okay, so that would mean you use a DT4 on a 8wt rod for it to load?  Who’s gonna be the first to make a fly rod with spinning rod guides so we can do this?  Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Reverse email to reply

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Well, I ain’t no fool and I didn’t cut my DT in half.  I folded it over and can now cast two flies without using a dropper.  Hah!  Doesn’t load very well though.  Kinda gets stuck in the guides. Ya, know, sitting here, writing this, I think of those long nights around a campfire at a clave and trying to figure out who would jump up and try this after it was mentioned.  

Sorry to hear that Frank. Okay, so that would mean you use a DT4 on a 8wt rod for it to load?  Who’s gonna be the first to make a fly rod with spinning rod guides so we can do this?  

One of Peter’s canons or a saltwater 10wt should be able to cope with a couple of 5wts.  or 3x 4’s on a 12 … or … Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms?

Marketing.  Uniforms must change regularly for to maintain sales.   Occasionally (every other change of strip IME) someone gets it wrong, hence the god-awfulness. Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid

Cripes, they must be if  they look bad after eggnog and tequila! Steve

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  If you have any questions ask these guys they know what they are talking about. Zack  

Well, at least about ff. Russell

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I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for the my family’s domain name

And a fine one it is. Does your mom know you read ROFF? If I were 14, it would intimidate the heck out of me! — TL, Tim (Just between you and me, these guys aren’t NEAR as scary in person.)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a web site for a boating activity book written for families who enjoy being on the water. Seems harmless to me. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a  domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for the my family’s domain name Alex

Alex, Sorry if I weirded you out with my prior post.  You just keep asking questions,  of anybody and everybody who will listen. That is how I tried to do it.  Still trying. . . many . . . many years beyond 14. BestWishes, DaveMohnsen Denver

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I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to  do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for  the my family’s domain name And a fine one it is. Does your mom know you read ROFF? If I were 14, it would intimidate the heck out of me!

What is ROFF? I have been trying to figure it out. Is it some kind of accronym? I acctualy have done a little Fly fishing with a cheap wal-mart set, but the level line is really hard to cast, and its a little heavy for small stream work. Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt? Thanks, Alex

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Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Cripes, they must be if  they look bad after eggnog and tequila! Steve

I’ve spewed better colors and I think I will again soon. Nighty nite – — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

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Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Cripes, they must be if  they look bad after eggnog and tequila! Steve I’ve spewed better colors and I think I will again soon.

*splork* Nighty nite –

hooroo Frank, 2:30 PM here and not a bad day weather wise. Steve

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I prefer a 3WF with my 3WT Three Forks rod. Some people (at least one, anyway) think that WF lines are a marketing scam, and that you’re a fool unless you buy a DT and cut it in half. Well, I ain’t no fool and I didn’t cut my DT in half.  I folded it over and can now cast two flies without using a dropper.  Hah!  Doesn’t load very well though.  Kinda gets stuck in the guides. Ya, know, sitting here, writing this, I think of those long nights around a campfire at a clave and trying to figure out who would jump up and try this after it was mentioned.  Okay, so that would mean you use a DT4 on a 8wt rod for it to load?  Who’s gonna be the first to make a fly rod with spinning rod guides so we can do this?  Why is Miami wearing those god-awful uniforms? Frank "Eggnog and Tequila" Reid Reverse email to reply

<splork! Russell Thinking perhaps Frank had done a few too many Full Reids.

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Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

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Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

Hi Alex, from a collector and user of Three Forks rods, I highly recommend the 3 wt 3 piece..it’s a 7 footer and ought to be ideal for fishing small streams. I can’t tell you for sure what it weighs, but it is a light rod and one you can handle with no problem. I would class this rod in the medium action, maybe even a tad on the slow side of medium. In any event, how could you go wrong with a rod that costs 40 bucks?  If it turns out you are not happy with it, Cabela’s has a liberal return policy, so you really are risking nothing. All the guys here who have purchased and used the rod seem to be happy with it, including me. Good luck, and let us know how this works out for you. Frank Church Elkhart, IN

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Cabela’s Three Forks Fly Combo Model Length Pieces Weight Qty Price 763 7′6" 3 3  $49.99 805 8′ 2 5  $49.99 865 8′6" 2 5  $49.99 866 8′6" 2 6  $49.99 907 9′ 2 7  $49.99 908 9′ 2 8  $49.99

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Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated,

Based on what their web site says, it’s probably a medium to medium/slow rod.  That might be just what you want.  Or you might find your casting style tends toward a faster rod.  If you don’t like it, return it and try a faster one.  I would usually recommend a 4 wt. as the lightest beginners should try.  Lighter than that it starts getting hard to control the line because it’s so light.  For small streams, you’ll be making a lot of short 10-25 foot casts.  Remember that a rod is rated at about 30 feet of line in the air.  I recommend you get a spare spool (inexpensive for Clearwaters) and get a 4 wt line as well if you can afford it.  Then try both lines on the rod.  In any case, even if you return the rod for a different action or size, you’ll still be in good shape.  You’ll probably own another rod someday anyway if you stick with the sport

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What is ROFF? I have been trying to figure it out. Is it some kind of accronym? I acctualy have done a little Fly fishing with a cheap wal-mart set, but the level line is really hard to cast, and its a little heavy for small stream work. Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt? Thanks, Alex

The WF-3 line will do just fine on the Three Forks rod Alex, assuming you get the Three Forks 3 wt rod. There is a whole line of Three Forks rods, from 3 wt up thru 8 wt. You could overline the rod with a WF-4, but given the kind of fishing you’ll be doing, I don’t see the necessity of that. ROFF is the initials of the usenet group, Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly, now do it make sense? Frank Church

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What is ROFF? I have been trying to figure it out. Is it some kind of accronym? I acctualy have done a little Fly fishing with a cheap wal-mart set, but the level line is really hard to cast, and its a little heavy for small stream work. Does a wf-3 work on the three forks rod, or does it do better with a 4wt? Thanks, Alex

The WF 3 should be fine on your 3wt rod.  Often, the older rods would be "over lined" with a heavier line to get the max benefit.  Most modern rods are matched to the line weight marked on them.  Keep it simple and keep the 3wt line. ROFF stands for Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly, the newsgroup you are in.  You may also read about ROFFT, which is ROFF.tying or ABPF: alt.binaries.pictures.fishing. Welcome to the sport, your soul now belongs to the stream and your wallet to the tackle retailers. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

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Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

It is cool to see some other people around my age getting into the sport. I started when I was 13. I am now 16, and the same rod I bought then 7′6 3 wt Sage DS series I still am using, I have had numerous chances to buy another supposedly better rod, but there are way to many memories put into that rod. I am sure your first rod will be the same. Good luck in all your fishing. Stay with it at first and you will a fly fishing addict like the members of this post. If you have any questions ask these guys they know what they are talking about. Zack  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s a web site for a boating activity book written for families who enjoy being on the water. Seems harmless to me. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a  domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

I live on a boat and my mom wrote a book of activities for kids to do while on the water. Needless to say, I do a lot of fishing.As for the my family’s domain name Alex

Response:

Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

I bought the 7 1/2 foot three piece 3wt. a few months ago as a backup for a trip to North Carolina.  I haven’t actually fished with it yet, but I spent an hour or so test casting it side by side with a two piece St. Croix Legend Ultra in the same length and weight.  The Cabela’s rod definitely has a slower action, which is a considerable advantage when fishing a very short line.  The rod loads easier with twenty feet or less of line out.  With a moderate to long line….up to about fifty feet, I could detect no significant difference in performance.  For those who like to cast a really long line, and are able to, I suspect that the stiffer St. Croix will perform better, but that’s not what a short three weight is for anyway. The weight of this rod is not printed anywhere on the rod itself, and a glance at Cabela’s website didn’t turn up any information either.  But, aside from satisfying curiosity, the weight of a small rod like this one really isn’t much of an issue…..ALL short three weights are going to be VERY light. One serious shortcoming of this rod hasn’t been mentioned yet in this thread.  A number of people have mentioned that the reel seat has a tendency to come off.  As a matter of fact, the components for the reel seat are obviously cheap, and this is a serious drawback at least in terms of esthetics.  However, I believe that all those who have suffered this mishap were able to fix it pretty easily with a bit of epoxy. Good luck and let us know how it works for you. Wolfgang

Response:

Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel, rio classic 3wt line, and am looking to get the much talked about Cabelas three forks 3wt. What i was wondering is: Is this a good outfit for a beginer who will be fishing mostly small sreams? Is the three forks rod a fast or slow action, and how much does it weigh? Any help would be much appreciated, Alex

I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Any 14 year old now days normally uses a spell checker better than us, and it is automatic, and they have better computers than most of us. . .when they were younger. Coincidence perhaps? Yeh . . .I guess so. But nice to know some of youse guys can be nice, DaveMohnsen Denver

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Hi, I am a 14 year old kid who has just bought a clearwater 3/4 reel,

    (considerate, thoughtful advice to newbie snipped) Good luck and let us know how it works for you. Wolfgang

    now, see there:  you *can* be a nice man! yfitons wayno  (but it ain’t like i’m gonna hold my breath waiting for the next exemplar…)

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I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . .

Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? –Steve

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I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that?

Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

Heh . . .heh.  I guess you’re right.  Uh . . .and why are you watching my posts anyway? . . .Geesh they are everywhere! Dave (cripes . . .can’t even post on the internet anymore without people reading my drivel. ’spect we’ll even see surveillance cameras soon . . .I’ll keep looking to warn ya all . . .they’re comin’ I tell ya . . .they’re comin’ . . .sshhsh . . .quiet . . did you hear somethin’? . . .I think they are even in the ‘puters!)

Response:

It’s a web site for a boating activity book written for families who enjoy being on the water. Seems harmless to me. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno guys. . .  you were very gracious in your info.  But . . . Dave, what the helly are you talking about? The kid’s family has a domain name… and? What’s so freaking sinister about that? Paranoia is alive and well, eh? — TL, Tim

Response:

I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

Response:

http://ezflyfish.com/outfits1.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

Response:

I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.

Josh, someone already posted the link to where you can get the gear (ezflyfish.com), but here are some links to info which you might find helpful. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/ http://www.anglinguk.net/beginners/fly.htm http://www.iflyshop.com/flyfishing-beginners.htm http://www.flyanglersonline.com/begin/101/ http://www.fishin.com/sale/woodsandwaters/articles/fly-fish-beginners.ht m http://home.mcn.net/~n2trout/mff/flyfishi.htm http://www.flyshop.com/skills/ — Warren www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

What might be the way to go, is to join you local fly fishing club, or hire the local fly fishing pro to take you fishing and see what gear is being used on your home waters.  What you buy will depend on what you are fishing for, how much money you want to invest, and personal tastes.   Padishar Creel — Hard not to suggest a rod or two for him…

Response:

A good way to get started with quality yet low priced gear (IMHO) is to check out the rod combo’s at Cabelas (www.cabelas.com). For +- $100 you can get into a rod that you can fish for a few years, see if you like the sport and then upgrade. I would start with a 9′ 5wt. Its a nice all-purpose rod. Well, as close to all-purpose as one can get. I personally think 3 rods in the minimum. I have a 7′ 3wt for small water, a  9′ 5wt for bigger water and a 9′ 8wt for steelheadin’. Just my $.02, Randy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

Response:

your local flyshop guy can help if you can tell him the kind/size fish you are going after and your budget…in my opinion, spend more on a rod and less on a reel…it is really your most important tool and makes a big difference…avoid the temptation to go too light…when I started fly fishing with some seriousness, I used a 6 weight Fenwick rod and a cheap reel.  It was a little heavy for the stream I was fishing, but it was an easy rod to learn to cast with.  My brother, Salvelinas Fontinalis, uses that rod now and is as happy about it as I was before he got his hands on it.  I’ve since bought more rods than you want to know and spend most of my streamside time with a Ted Knott bamboo rod, 4/5 weight, 7′, which has become a good friend.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A good way to get started with quality yet low priced gear (IMHO) is to check out the rod combo’s at Cabelas (www.cabelas.com). For +- $100 you can get into a rod that you can fish for a few years, see if you like the sport and then upgrade. I would start with a 9′ 5wt. Its a nice all-purpose rod. Well, as close to all-purpose as one can get. I personally think 3 rods in the minimum. I have a 7′ 3wt for small water, a  9′ 5wt for bigger water and a 9′ 8wt for steelheadin’. Just my $.02, Randy I’ve fished lake with a worm and stuff from shore but this flyfishing thing sounds cool and I wanted to know how to get started.  You see Christmas is coming soon and I’ve been good this year.  I need to tell Santa what I want so he can check it once and check it twice.  What do I need to get started and how do I get started?  I don’t want a lump of coal in my sock this years. JA

Response:

Question:

Norm is not a finish carpenter. I disagree. What about the nail gun, stain-over-smeared-glue, and poly? (I had forgotten the glue-smearing tactic in my 1st post.)

I guess we have different definitions of finish carpenter. In my book it’s the person who works (generally) inside the building putting up baseboard, door & window trim, panelling and molding. And often installing cabinets and built-ins. You will generally see these guys wielding a nail gun, rubbing glue on with a finger tip, and filling holes with putty. There’s usually a second person who slaps on the stain and poly. So what is that that makes Norm _not_ a finish carpenter? The fact that he crams a week-long project into 1/2 hour isn’t relevant. He’s not doing it real time like Roy Underhill and we all know that (right kids?). Bzzzzt! Ask these Normites’ wives. (and probably 1/3 of them)

Well, that’s why Ron Popeil is rich, isn’t it. pays attention now. In the early days he was content with a simple half-blind dovetail jig for all his drawers. He still doesn’t hand-cut them but at least he appreciates the aesthetics of the hand-cut look given by the leigh jig. I must have missed the episode titled "How to fake hand-cut dovies using only $26,745.13 worth of powah tools." (Of course, I’ve only seen 3 or 4 episodes, plus 5-10 minutes of half a dozen others.) I liked him on TOH much better.

Oh come on. The Leigh Dovetail jig costs $370 and the router is around $150. Hardly excessive. And there’s an endorsement there. He’s shown a couple of other dovetail jigs through the years–such as the Keller–but they only ever made one appearance. The Leigh keeps coming back. So I’d say he’s gotten his money’s worth and it makes me think that it’s probably worth spending the money on. Despite what many people think, outside of a few really obvious examples (the 15" planer, the wide belt sander, and the resaw) the NYW really isn’t overly equipped. It probably seems so to the person just starting out, but I’ve seen many hobbyist shops with as much or more equipment in them. –Rick

Response:

This poll has been done here several times. It is about 50/50. I don’t use them either. — CW KC7NOD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

Response:

Fountain) crayoned this: Sometimes Norm Confuses Me

As well he should. 1/2 hour to do a 2-week project? That’s TV! Repeat after me: Norm is a carpenter. Norm is not a finish carpenter. Norm is not a fine woodworker. Proof of these three facts are shown on every episode: Norm nails, stains, and poly’s the shit out of every project. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t dislike Norm (only some of his practices), I do like many of his projects, and he surely knows more about carpentry than I do. We just have different opinions on what is important in a finished product and how to get there. (Especially nowadays. Out here in LoCal, I couldn’t afford to RUN the multi-megawatt tools he uses.) All about old planes: Electrolysis: http://members.xoom.com/nlindsey/restoration/Restoration.htm Flattening: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/Quicklap.html Dating Stanley iron planes: http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ww/planes/ Stanley (now Patrick’s) Blood and Gore http://www.supertool.com/index.htm — the Stanley Bible The best wood reference site in the entire world is: http://www.internetwoodworking.com/w5/wood.html/

Response:

<<<)))Well, I might use a low quality plywood thinking that with wet and muddy <<<)))stuff being stored inside the seat, it will be inexpensive and easy to <<<)))replace as needed. Yeah, that, or he could be showing that there is a use for all types of wood, and that you can use different materials if it suits you.

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

A.  I always use the splitter when making through cuts. B.  I use the guard (I purchased a Uniguard when I bought my Unisaw) whenever possible.  There are times that it won’t work for various cuts, but the Uniguard is very good about being flipped out of the way and then flipped back in place.

Response:

Sometimes Norm Confuses Me As well he should. 1/2 hour to do a 2-week project? That’s TV! Repeat after me: Norm is a carpenter.

I agree. Norm is not a finish carpenter.

I disagree. Norm is not a fine woodworker.

He’s working on it. Proof of these three facts are shown on every episode: Norm nails, stains, and poly’s the shit out of every project.

Part of the ‘problem’, methinks, is that he approaches his projects just like a professional finish carpenter would rather than luxuriating in the process like a hobbyist or a fine woodworker would. Ever watched a finish carpenter roll through a new house? Air brad nailers and putty are his friend! Outside real high-end houses, no one can afford to take the time to make sliding dovetails to hold moldings and hand-cut dovetails on all four corners of a drawer box. Measure, cut, bam, bam, and move on. Gotta trim out 8 windows and two doors before going home today. The fact that he crams a week-long project into 1/2 hour isn’t relevant. He’s not doing it real time like Roy Underhill and we all know that (right kids?). Most projecte appear to take two days, but how many of us actually put in an 8-hour day in the shop? However, I sometimes wish they’d be a little less honest and at least portray him more like the rest of us. For example–he’s a busy guy and probably really needs the time saved by that wide belt sander. But since 99% of us don’t own one, why don’t they show him hand sanding (or scraping!) the first panel and then he can run the rest through the dust hog off camera. Same with that huge re-saw. It was cool the first time he used it, but on subsequent shows where he needed to resaw a board he should show us a different technique. If it’s slower and more laborious, so what. He starts it on camera and then uses the resaw to finish the rest. The fact is, he could be more like Dean and Robin who have a whole crew of carpenters, plumbers and electricians who actually do most of the work they pretend to. That’s how _they_ finish a 3 month project in three half-hour episodes! Then he wouldn’t feel as remote from us normal joes. That said, I’ve watched the show from the beginning and credit it, more than anything else, with getting me back into woodworking. He _has_ grown considerably as a woodworker since those early days. If anything, in his design sense. He was guilty of some cross-grain glue-ups early on, but he pays attention now. In the early days he was content with a simple half-blind dovetail jig for all his drawers. He still doesn’t hand-cut them but at least he appreciates the aesthetics of the hand-cut look given by the leigh jig. And a few projects he really has made an effort to build it with no brads in visible places. I think he did fairly well on the jewelry box. –Rick

Response:

Norm stopped being a woodworker some time ago, now he sells tools (or creates the "need" to buy them – your choice). Having said that, Norm builds stuff his way, I build stuff mine and you, undoubtedly, build stuff your way. Moral – never ask the donkey what the horse is doing – ask the horse instead. — Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes Norm Confuses Me

Response:

Norm is not a finish carpenter. I disagree.

What about the nail gun, stain-over-smeared-glue, and poly? (I had forgotten the glue-smearing tactic in my 1st post.) Norm is not a fine woodworker. He’s working on it.

Perhaps. (see Q above) The fact that he crams a week-long project into 1/2 hour isn’t relevant. He’s not doing it real time like Roy Underhill and we all know that (right kids?).

Bzzzzt! Ask these Normites’ wives. (and probably 1/3 of them) That said, I’ve watched the show from the beginning and credit it, more than anything else, with getting me back into woodworking. He _has_ grown considerably as a woodworker since those early days. If anything, in his

True. Haven’t we all grown in that time? design sense. He was guilty of some cross-grain glue-ups early on, but he pays attention now. In the early days he was content with a simple half-blind dovetail jig for all his drawers. He still doesn’t hand-cut them but at least he appreciates the aesthetics of the hand-cut look given by the leigh jig.

I must have missed the episode titled "How to fake hand-cut dovies using only $26,745.13 worth of powah tools." (Of course, I’ve only seen 3 or 4 episodes, plus 5-10 minutes of half a dozen others.) I liked him on TOH much better. And a few projects he really has made an effort to build it with no brads in visible places. I think he did fairly well on the jewelry box.

1 Atta Boy, going out toward NYWville tonight.  I’ll apologize for offending someone…right after they apologize for being easily offended. http://www.diversify.com  Inoffensive Web Design

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

As a long time lurker on here, to help or hinder the pol, add my vote please. I use neither, Jay BobK

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

I usually keep a "RipStraight" attachment on my fence.  If I’ll be ripping a number of boards I’ll put the splitter back on the saw.  If I looked hard enough I probably could find my blade guard. — Jack Novak Buffalo, NY – USA

Response:

I thought it was funny on todays episode on HGTV while he was building a sailboat and was using bronze screws….all of a sudden he says he ran outa them and will now use stainless steel ones..I mean I know stainless is fine for boats but..but..but—-Norm run outa something in middle of project??????? ps I tape them too..by the way he’s still my hero.. ;0} Steve

That was a pretty startling comment.  He operates out of a 40 gazzilion dollar shop with the best of everything and he ran out of screws???? By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy? -JR

Response:

By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy?

Well, there’s some wood in between the epoxy plies. Mike.

Response:

[snide mode on] " and a couple of brads to hold it while the glue dries" [snide off] Actually, I do enjoy Norm’s shows.  There is always an idea lurking about and ready to be learned.  Entertainment? Sure.  Why is Norm carried in more places than Roy. Wince?  Sure.  Whenever Norm gets his glue machine and brad nailer out and whenever Roy gets something sharp out.  Lots of good stuff out there.     mahalo,     jo4hn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy? Well, there’s some wood in between the epoxy plies. Mike.

Response:

While being no Sam Maloof,

Who’s Sam Maloof?

Response:

When Norm is hosting his show, he’s more than just Carpenter Guy — he’s Carpenter Guy Hosting a Do-It-Mostly-Yourself TV Show. I’ve often wondered why he uses different methods to achieve the same result from show to show, and I figured it’s probably to show the viewers — who might not watch every show — varying ways of completing the project. Pocket screws seem more of a pain the the butt than biscuits (for example), but it PC is going to give the show their $700 pocket-screw-cutter-thingie, they probably want him to use it every once in a while. Mark

Response:

Actually, Norms use of epoxy in the sailboat is pretty much standard. A lot of cedar strip canoes and wooden drift boats (flyfishing related) are finished inside and out with West System epoxies…it completely waterproofs and strengthens the boat and wood. And driftboats have sometimes sport UHMW bottoms as well as aluminum chines. Best Regards, Philski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy? Well, there’s some wood in between the epoxy plies. Mike.

Response:

I thought it was funny on todays episode on HGTV while he was building a sailboat and was using bronze screws….all of a sudden he says he ran outa them and will now use stainless steel ones..I mean I know stainless is fine for boats but..but..but—-Norm run outa something in middle of project??????? ps I tape them too..by the way he’s still my hero.. ;0} Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes Norm Confuses Me I’ll prefix this with the comment that, when it comes down to it, Norm has far more experience and skill than I have (I’m a hobbiest/hack working my way up to carpenter, hoping to be woodworker at some point). I have taped most of his shows and review them if there was something I wanted to understand better. Some may debate the statement that he is a "Fine Woodworker" or a snip 1. Using a piece of (BC, CD even) plywood for the bottom of the chair "box".  My god.  Norm even comments that it isn’t all that authentic but that he’ll "just paint it".  He spends an entire show recreating an "authentic" piece, including panels, and then shortcuts the bottom.  I know the underside won’t likely be seen, but the inside of the box will often.  There is not advantage of plywood here as it is a loose panel.  Cost wouldn’t be a real issue compared to the overall project.  It almost appears that he ran out of wood or something.  At least he could have used a better piece of ply.  From the large knots it looked like a scrap from the Home Depot CDX pile.

snip snip

Response:

Jerry, You don’t really seem to be "confused" at all! You have used this opportunity to air your two-cents worth. (As well you can). But I am not of the opinion that you have to follow _every_method_ that Norm provides in his presentations. While being no Sam Maloof, Normski does provide some needed entertainment on the Boob Toob where a plethora of Award Shows seem to rule the roost. He must have had to get rid of that last sheet of CDX – but you can always substitute honest-to-goodness wood in it’s place if you so desire. Then you could always change the channel too huh? Here I am responding to a drive-by……. Philski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes Norm Confuses Me I’ll prefix this with the comment that, when it comes down to it, Norm has far more experience and skill than I have (I’m a hobbiest/hack working my way up to carpenter, hoping to be woodworker at some point). I have taped most of his shows and review them if there was something I wanted to understand better. Some may debate the statement that he is a "Fine Woodworker" or a "Craftsman", but when it comes down to it he does make some nice pieces given the restrictions of his show (time, sponsors, and audience). But, he often does things I find, well, confusing. I was watching his recent episode of the "Hall Seat". http://www.newyankee.com/GetProduct2.cgi?0103 This episode raised a number of questions and refreshed my thoughts on old issues.  Perhaps some would care to comment on my confusion here.  Most are probably design issues. 1. Using a piece of (BC, CD even) plywood for the bottom of the chair "box".  My god.  Norm even comments that it isn’t all that authentic but that he’ll "just paint it".  He spends an entire show recreating an "authentic" piece, including panels, and then shortcuts the bottom.  I know the underside won’t likely be seen, but the inside of the box will often.  There is not advantage of plywood here as it is a loose panel.  Cost wouldn’t be a real issue compared to the overall project.  It almost appears that he ran out of wood or something.  At least he could have used a better piece of ply.  From the large knots it looked like a scrap from the Home Depot CDX pile. I think this was a shortcut that didn’t make ANY sense. 2. His under-arm reinforcement.  He makes a good case for why this needed to be done.  No argument there and he makes good use of it to discuss the use of an inlay set for the router.  Unfortunately, his choice of color and shape were utilitarian to say the least. Couldn’t he have used some ply and then a thin strip of veneer? Perhaps some hardwood plywood?  Both would have gone towards making the reinforcement look less like an afterthought.  On a more stylish note, perhaps using something like a bowtie shape would have looked more traditional than the rectangle he used. The shape is probably being picky, but a better choice in wood tone would be more appropriate (IMHO). 3. The mirror frame.  I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt here a bit as I’m sure he has to keep the tool companies happy. But still, he did the entire piece with M&T joinery, then at the last second pops in with the pocket screws.  I noticed he covered them with another (ugly) sheet of plywood and the whole piece will be against the wall, but it seems a bit gratuitous and diminishes a piece that (with #1 fixed) would have been of heirloom quality (potentially). Finally, one that wasn’t in the Hall Seat show, but still always amazes me. 4. Norm has clamps up the wazzo (something not to be debated), and we all know he sleeps with his brad nailer, but using brads to hold solid wood edging on plywood rather than simply clamping them seems foolish (for non-production shops).  I mean really.  I’m putting the edging on to give a finished appearance to the piece. Why do I want to go and put holes in it which have to be patched and which will show up in the final piece?  Am I missing something other than speed (which isn’t an issue for his show) or product promotion (heck, perhaps Bessey would like to sell some more K-bodies ? Jerry — Jerry Fountain          | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing (847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering (847) 491-3728 (FAX)    | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL  60208

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither.

I use neither, either!  And for the past 27 years my digits have remained all mine. In fact the worst cuts have been from chisels, and I don’t think they make a guard for those beasties, do they?  :-)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jerry, You don’t really seem to be "confused" at all! You have used this opportunity to air your two-cents worth. (As well you can). But I am not of the opinion that you have to follow _every_method_ that Norm provides in his presentations. While being no Sam Maloof, Normski does provide some needed entertainment on the Boob Toob where a plethora of Award Shows seem to rule the roost. He must have had to get rid of that last sheet of CDX – but you can always substitute honest-to-goodness wood in it’s place if you so desire. Then you could always change the channel too huh? Here I am responding to a drive-by……. Nope.  I wasn’t trolling.  I guess my word choice of being "confused" related to "just when you think Norm is going the traditional way", he turns 180 degrees and does something like insert a piece of (poor quality) plywood.

Well, I might use a low quality plywood thinking that with wet and muddy stuff being stored inside the seat, it will be inexpensive and easy to replace as needed.

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

Response:

I give credit to Norm getting the wife and I into woodworking. I agree that we cringe when he nails moldings and at the lack of splitter or saw guard.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jerry, You don’t really seem to be "confused" at all! You have used this opportunity to air your two-cents worth. (As well you can). But I am not of the opinion that you have to follow _every_method_ that Norm provides in his presentations. While being no Sam Maloof, Normski does provide some needed entertainment on the Boob Toob where a plethora of Award Shows seem to rule the roost. He must have had to get rid of that last sheet of CDX – but you can always substitute honest-to-goodness wood in it’s place if you so desire. Then you could always change the channel too huh? Here I am responding to a drive-by…….

Nope.  I wasn’t trolling.  I guess my word choice of being "confused" related to "just when you think Norm is going the traditional way", he turns 180 degrees and does something like insert a piece of (poor quality) plywood. I wasn’t trying to get into a discussion of how to follow Norms plans, but rather inquire if anyone could see *what* might have been going through his mind when he did something.  Considering that he does the pieces twice, once for the prototype and once more for video, you would think that some thought and reasoning went into the decisions. Still, I enjoy watching the show, and I still learn things from it.  I guess I’ve learned enough to start questioning things  I didn’t even mention that his explanation for how he was glueing only 2/3 of the panels made any sense, plus the fact that some of his tenons seemed awfully long (but it was quarter-sawn).  Wood movement is something I’m trying to study more (beyond the basic rules that is). Jerry — Jerry Fountain          | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing (847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering (847) 491-3728 (FAX)    | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL  60208

Response:

Sometimes Norm Confuses Me I’ll prefix this with the comment that, when it comes down to it, Norm has far more experience and skill than I have (I’m a hobbiest/hack working my way up to carpenter, hoping to be woodworker at some point). I have taped most of his shows and review them if there was something I wanted to understand better. Some may debate the statement that he is a "Fine Woodworker" or a "Craftsman", but when it comes down to it he does make some nice pieces given the restrictions of his show (time, sponsors, and audience). But, he often does things I find, well, confusing. I was watching his recent episode of the "Hall Seat". http://www.newyankee.com/GetProduct2.cgi?0103 This episode raised a number of questions and refreshed my thoughts on old issues.  Perhaps some would care to comment on my confusion here.  Most are probably design issues. 1. Using a piece of (BC, CD even) plywood for the bottom of the chair "box".  My god.  Norm even comments that it isn’t all that authentic but that he’ll "just paint it".  He spends an entire show recreating an "authentic" piece, including panels, and then shortcuts the bottom.  I know the underside won’t likely be seen, but the inside of the box will often.  There is not advantage of plywood here as it is a loose panel.  Cost wouldn’t be a real issue compared to the overall project.  It almost appears that he ran out of wood or something.  At least he could have used a better piece of ply.  From the large knots it looked like a scrap from the Home Depot CDX pile. I think this was a shortcut that didn’t make ANY sense. 2. His under-arm reinforcement.  He makes a good case for why this needed to be done.  No argument there and he makes good use of it to discuss the use of an inlay set for the router.  Unfortunately, his choice of color and shape were utilitarian to say the least. Couldn’t he have used some ply and then a thin strip of veneer? Perhaps some hardwood plywood?  Both would have gone towards making the reinforcement look less like an afterthought.  On a more stylish note, perhaps using something like a bowtie shape would have looked more traditional than the rectangle he used. The shape is probably being picky, but a better choice in wood tone would be more appropriate (IMHO). 3. The mirror frame.  I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt here a bit as I’m sure he has to keep the tool companies happy. But still, he did the entire piece with M&T joinery, then at the last second pops in with the pocket screws.  I noticed he covered them with another (ugly) sheet of plywood and the whole piece will be against the wall, but it seems a bit gratuitous and diminishes a piece that (with #1 fixed) would have been of heirloom quality (potentially). Finally, one that wasn’t in the Hall Seat show, but still always amazes me. 4. Norm has clamps up the wazzo (something not to be debated), and we all know he sleeps with his brad nailer, but using brads to hold solid wood edging on plywood rather than simply clamping them seems foolish (for non-production shops).  I mean really.  I’m putting the edging on to give a finished appearance to the piece. Why do I want to go and put holes in it which have to be patched and which will show up in the final piece?  Am I missing something other than speed (which isn’t an issue for his show) or product promotion (heck, perhaps Bessey would like to sell some more K-bodies ? Jerry — Jerry Fountain          | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing (847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering (847) 491-3728 (FAX)    | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL  60208

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Question:

For four months in the mid seventies I lived in a tool shed and ate mostly what I could forage from the surrounding woods and fields.  

When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way. It was tough in the winter. A hungry pack of wolves would follow us, and we had to watch out for those wild Indians with their bows and arrows. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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I don’t suppose it depends upon the scales? — Mr.Gink "the saga continues"   http://www.gink.com/rod_facts/bastardjul00.html

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When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way. It was tough in the winter. A hungry pack of wolves would follow us, and we had to watch out for those wild Indians with their bows and arrows. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

City boy<g. Why when I was in school… — Charlie…

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At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

Show ‘em Evian spelled backwards…and then make ‘em pay it themselves…<G. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian. Show ‘em Evian spelled backwards…and then make ‘em pay it themselves…<G.

Really. One time I filled an Evian bottle with tap water and put it back in the refrigerator. My wife and kids never noticed the difference, but man were they pissed. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people?

Not sure whether you are really asking how to help them or how to find them.  In either case I can only answer…..huh?

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So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people? Not sure whether you are really asking how to help them or how to find them.  In either case I can only answer…..huh?

Think of some of the things we’ve been talking about.  Scam artists who pose as poor, out of luck people.  Poor people who will not take charity.  Basically I’m someone who’s decided not to give money to charitable organizations (through a third party).  (I’ve done *work* for charitable organizations.) But, I’d happily buy a meal or give a gift to a poor family if I could find people who are actually poor and would accept something without finding me condascending.  This has happened to me, but the more I think about it, not often enough.  How do you find a person truly in need, and how would you actually approach them? Regards, Jeff

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When I was a kid my brother and I had to hike 10 miles to school each way.

You had schools???  We used to sleep in a shoe box, and had to get up a half hour before we went to bed.  For breakfast we got a lump of cold poison. At least, that’s what I tell my kids, who won’t drink any water but Evian.

And you know what that spells backward….  :-) Regards, Jeff

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Think of some of the things we’ve been talking about.  Scam artists who pose as poor, out of luck people.  

Giving money to panhandlers is the equivalent of feeding the bears at Yellowstone Park. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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If somebody only had a good drink, and in some poor way managed to forget his problems for a while ( not a solution I would generally recommend however), then it was worth the money. Perhaps it did him more good than a meal. Who knows?

Maybe so.  But I would still gladly buy a poor person a meal but not give money to some guy who profits from the transaction.  And I would rather buy someone a meal than give them the money.  It just pisses me off when I get scammed.  Just 2 weeks ago a guy in the parking lot of a supermarket told me his car broke down and he had to get his wife and daughter back home on the bus that night, so could he have enough money to pay for the 3 tickets.  As I was pondering this, it finally dawned on me that this was the same guy I gave money to almost exactly a year before, with the exact same shpiel (shp?) So, how would one go about actually helping someone directly who is actually hungry or poor when one doesn’t know any such people? Regards, Jeff

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<good story snipped Nice story Mike.  Hopefully you will post this one to your website. bc. — Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

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"Mike Connor"     In my youth, I was a member of one of those families who "simply had nothing."  I was 5 and I remember this old guy, he must have been 10 or 11 who would come to our back door on a Saturday morning with a sackful of potatoes.   He’d scavanged them from the ground under the conveyor belt at the processing plant.  Some times I was in the back garden as he dropped them off, most times they just appeared.  He took keen interest in what I was doing, whether building a house with twigs or staging a war with my toy soldiers.    You, that kid with the potatoes and millions of other anonymous souls around the world are the ones that allowed many of us to grow up and escape that poverty.  You live day by day and finally, with a little help, things start to improve, opportunities open up and you make the best of them. Those of us who’ve been there cannot truly express our thanks to you in the way it should be given, so we attempt to put something back into those neigborhoods of our youth.     However, when the light shines on one of those giving souls, they are caught, as those fish you caught.  You have now become a proxie for that "old guy" of my youth.  I want to personnally thank you for your effort and caring.  Thank you friend.                                         Frank Reid

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Frank,    I grew up in the 1930’s and my family didn’t  have very much either.  No matter how little you had you could always find someone who had less.  One of my friends lived with his grandmother and I went with him every week to meet the welfare truck to help him carry anything he might be lucky enough to get.  I remember one week he got a crate of oranges.  I skinned my shins against the box as we carried to his home and I wondered how you could live on oranges for a week. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Mike Connor"     In my youth, I was a member of one of those families who "simply had nothing."  I was 5 and I remember this old guy, he must have been 10 or 11 who would come to our back door on a Saturday morning with a sackful of potatoes.   He’d scavanged them from the ground under the conveyor belt at the processing plant.  Some times I was in the back garden as he dropped them off, most times they just appeared.  He took keen interest in what I was doing, whether building a house with twigs or staging a war with my toy soldiers.    You, that kid with the potatoes and millions of other anonymous souls around the world are the ones that allowed many of us to grow up and escape that poverty.  You live day by day and finally, with a little help, things start to improve, opportunities open up and you make the best of them. Those of us who’ve been there cannot truly express our thanks to you in the way it should be given, so we attempt to put something back into those neigborhoods of our youth.     However, when the light shines on one of those giving souls, they are caught, as those fish you caught.  You have now become a proxie for that "old guy" of my youth.  I want to personnally thank you for your effort and caring.  Thank you friend.                                         Frank Reid

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Surprisingly enough Ernie, you can live for a week or even considerably longer, on more or less nothing. Problems arise when this continues for long periods, and one is forced to eat stuff that one would not normally touch. I remember all too well the first time my mother brought home a "bucket of scraps" which was all we had in the house for several days.  "Scraps" are the remains of fish, chips, batter etc soaked in lard, which are scraped out of the large frying pans used in fish and chip shops when they are cleaned. A bucket full cost a couple of pennies, and there was often a queue for this stuff.  I only ever ate the stuff a couple of times, but I can taste it still, and even the smell makes me feel ill.  I can not stomach even entering a fish and chip shop to this day, and I remember my wife being very surprised when we visited London once and she wanted to try fish and chips, and I simply could not stay in the queue which had  formed at the counter, as I was in severe danger of throwing up.  This sort of thing plays hell with peoples health as well.  It may not have appeared so in my story, but I was indeed one of the lucky ones, I had the means and the drive to go and catch fish, "find" "wayward" sheep, and even go and dig up "wild" potatoes or vegetables, or collect fruit and stuff in summer,  should this prove necessary. I also collected seacoal and wood, from the beaches, so we always had something to burn in winter, which was much more than many others had, and we never actually got anywhere even close to starving or freezing.  Although some I knew got close to it. Many of the people I knew at that time were sunk so deeply in apathy as a result of their poverty, that they could not help themselves, and even under those conditions, some were far too proud to accept "charity".  What little money they received from various sources, usually social security or similar, was often wasted in vain attempts at momentary escape from their respective plights, or even astoundingly enough,  pathetic attempts at "keeping up the show". Drunkenness was common, and many a wife and child beating took place, when some men lucky enough to have them, came home from their jobs late on a Friday night, after having drunk most of their relatively meagre pay in the local pubs. They were often also poorly educated, reviled by other sections of the community, and generally treated like dirt. Poverty is a deadly disease, it saps ones energy, removes any perspective of improvement for many, releases large amounts of criminal energy, mostly driven by hopelessness, and the feeling that things can get no worse anyway, whatever one does, often induces a positive fear of authority, and inevitably results in an early grave, as it did for both my father and my mother, and many many others I knew at that time. It may also reveal facets of human nature that are not normally obvious, not all of which are negative. A little kindness may cost a man of means virtually nothing, but may go a very long way to helping somebody far less fortunate. The world would be a far better place if some were bound to wonder as you did, how one may live on oranges for a week, and then consider those who did not even have the oranges, and in many places still do not. One of the reasons I so loved angling and anglers, as I still do, was because I met more "gentlemen" of a kind, honest, and helpful nature while doing it, than I have ever met anywhere else, I can not remember any of them being otherwise really, although of course they were all different in their ways.   Fortunately this is still the case as far as most are concerned, and is certainly the case here on ROFF. One of the reasons I enjoy it so much, and why it is worth defending.  This may sound a little overboard to some, but I believe it is so, and I am not ashamed to say so. TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank,    I grew up in the 1930’s and my family didn’t  have very much either.  No matter how little you had you could always find someone who had less.  One of my friends lived with his grandmother and I went with him every week to meet the welfare truck to help him carry anything he might be lucky enough to get.  I remember one week he got a crate of oranges.  I skinned my shins against the box as we carried to his home and I wondered how you could live on oranges for a week. Ernie

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Mike,    I can understand why you would dislike fish and chips to this day. I had some at Ramsdens (sp?) in Northern England which were excellent. Ernie "Mike Connor" wrote <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I remember all too well the first time my mother brought home a "bucket of scraps" which was all we had in the house for several days <snip TL MC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One of the reasons I so loved angling and anglers, as I still do, was because I met more "gentlemen" of a kind, honest, and helpful nature while doing it, than I have ever met anywhere else, I can not remember any of them being otherwise really, although of course they were all different in their ways.   Fortunately this is still the case as far as most are concerned, and is certainly the case here on ROFF. One of the reasons I enjoy it so much, and why it is worth defending.  This may sound a little overboard to some, but I believe it is so, and I am not ashamed to say so. TL MC – .

And, indeed, Mike, you honor us all by doing so.  You certainly do not need my encouragement to continue your course, but you have it, nonetheless. Bravo! Tom — Tom Brown Wake Forest, NC

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Perhaps we are just perverse?

At the risk of having Ernie thump me on the head again I will repeat something I posted some time ago on ROFF.   It has been my experience that to most in America being hungry means trying to remember the last time you missed a meal.  In fact, being hungry means trying to remember the last time you HAD a good meal. Who’s perverse?

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An excellent analysis.  One other point occurred to me. Referring to a particular group of society as "the poor", is one of the reasons why people find it easy to avoid any identification with those so afflicted, it is easy to forget that we are talking about people here,  and the word itself is a stigma. As for many politicians, well I think it probably better to refrain from comment, waste of time anyway. Hardly seems worth the trouble criticising people who mainly appear to tell lies, and manipulate others for a living. If somebody only had a good drink, and in some poor way managed to forget his problems for a while ( not a solution I would generally recommend however), then it was worth the money. Perhaps it did him more good than a meal. Who knows? I have not been hungry for a very long time either, but curiously enough, just like you, I remember exactly what it was like. In fact I remember it far more clearly than any of the times I have been ripped off, (also uncountable I fear),  or sat at sumptuous meals in equally sumptuous surroundings. Perhaps we are just perverse? TL MC — "In order to know what is possible one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

money to someone to buy him a decent meal and see him lying drunk in the – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – gutter a couple of hours later.  Don’t know how many times this has happened or how much it’s cost me but I STILL haven’t been hungry since 1975.

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Cold, the rattling noise was caused by my teeth chattering loudly, as I shivered uncontrollably yet again.  Cheap anoraks and jeans are not really all that efficient at keeping one warm,

        (snip)         simply amazing.  very, very few of us have ever been to that place. wayno

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Well, to paraphrase: Give a boy a fish and he feeds himself, teach him to fish, and he feeds a village… TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Secondly, if you want to know how much a fish is worth, wait until you and your family are hungry, and carry a sackfull on your back to feed them. This will doubtless colour any subsequent ideas you might have on the matter considerably. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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Thanks for that little dose of reality – a good reminder is a neccesity these days. Peter

So would a speller checker on this newsreader!!! Peter

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When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help.

I think part of the problem is that there *are* a few cheats and slackers, making it difficult to know which are which, even if the cheats are relatively few.  This is especially a problem since the people of means to help the poor are usually don’t live in close enough proximity to be able to figure it out on their own on a day-to-day basis.  I’ve personally been ripped off enough times that now I only volunteer my time and effort, never money.  I wish it were different. Regards, Jeff

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When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help. I think part of the problem is that there *are* a few cheats and slackers, making it difficult to know which are which, even if the cheats are relatively few.  This is especially a problem since the people of means to help the poor are usually don’t live in close enough proximity to be able to figure it out on their own on a day-to-day basis.  I’ve personally been ripped off enough times that now I only volunteer my time and effort, never money.  I wish it were different.

Yes, there are cheats and slackers and no, it’s not part of the problem.  There are cheats and slackers in congress, in corporate offices, in academia, in churches, and in every other segment of society.  No one wants to dismantle any of these and no one thinks seriously about punishing them all for the sins of the few.  I repeat, it’s not part of the problem….it’s a different problem.  You are right about one thing; the people with the greatest means to help the poor generally do not live in close proximity.  Even when they do though, it is generally not the people with the greatest means who do the most to help.  Must be afraid of getting ripped off……might make them late for dinner. For four months in the mid seventies I lived in a tool shed and ate mostly what I could forage from the surrounding woods and fields.  I lost over forty pounds in that time and spent most of my time doing virtually nothing for lack of energy or incentive.  This is not a lament.  Unlike many millions of people around the world (and even here in the richest country in the history of the world) I always had options.  Eventually, I availed myself of an opportunity to get plugged back into the mainstream.  I have never been truly hungry since 1975, but I remember.  I’ve been ripped off lots of times since then….given money to someone to buy him a decent meal and see him lying drunk in the gutter a couple of hours later.  Don’t know how many times this has happened or how much it’s cost me but I STILL haven’t been hungry since 1975.

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[reality snipped] When I read both your posts, I couldn’t help thinking of some of the politicians today who consider the poor to be cheats and slackers, not worthy of help.  Our current premier once remarked that single welfare mothers spend their money on beer.  One of his first acts was to substantially reduce both welfare payouts and eligibilty, putting many people onto the street.  He’s now out to privatise co-op housing – putting more on the street.  I can’t help thinking that a week of subsiting on a bucket of scraps would help his perspective immensely. Thanks for that little dose of reality – a good reminder is a neccesity these days. Peter

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Cold, the rattling noise was caused by my teeth chattering loudly, as I shivered uncontrollably yet again.  Cheap anoraks and jeans are not really all that efficient at keeping one warm, pulling the collar up around my neck once more, I snuggled into the corner of the life-belt storage cupboard, and tried to think warm.  Walking the six miles or so along the clifftops and climbing down to the pier had kept me warm enough, and I had not really noticed how cold it was, but I was noticing now alright! Climbing up the icy steel pier legs in the pre-dawn dark with my gear had even caused me to start sweating, and I was paying for that now too. Cold sweat is very cold indeed.  Frosty clouds formed every time I exhaled, and the freezing spray from the stormy sea had soaked me fairly well through from the other side of my clothing as well. Nobody else was on the pier, quite unusual, as the tides were quite propitious, and the recent storms would almost certainly have brought some cod or whiting, and perhaps a few other fish closer in.  Leaving my temporary shelter, I moved out into the full force of the wind and spray, and surveyed the scene, dark clouds, swirling angry seas, and a long procession of heavy breakers crashing against the pier, causing it to  sway ominously under my feet.  Occasional banks of freezing fog rolled rapidly landwards, driven by a capricious but powerful wind, with clear patches now and again, allowing one odd glimpses of the land, and the cliff head, often covering the pier slipway, obliterating it, and making it seem as if one was standing on a tower with no land connection. Although dawn had broken, the weather was such that this was by no means apparent, it was still fairly dark, and it took me half an age to get my "storm-lantern",which consisted of a candle in a milk bottle with holes drilled around the bottom,  going, so that I had enough light to assemble my gear. This piece of equipment also did sterling service as a hand warmer. High tide was not for another two hours, but with freezing fingers occasionally warmed on the milk bottle, I painfully started to assemble my gear anyway.  Seven feet of solid fibreglass rod, an ancient wooden "Scarborough" centrepin reel with a hundred yards of forty pound line, an eight ounce lead, and a trace on which was mounted a set of three of my latest "secret weapons". Most of the blokes I met on the pier and elsewhere invariably laughed when seeing this for the first time, some kindly souls even offering me bait and other stuff, which however I always declined.  After a while, quite a few got to know me, as I literally haunted some venues when the fish were there, and was treated like a "regular", although even at that tender age I was considered eccentric, I was twelve at the time.  Not everybody knew my name, and many referred to me as "that fly-tying lad", not unkindly, but in that certain way that suggested I had at least a couple of screws loose.  Nobody actually tapped their foreheads, at least not in my presence, but I often got the feeling that they were about to. Fly-fishing at that time was something which the "gentry" did, and they did not do it in Winter in the North Sea. Standard procedure for serious sea anglers at the time was a multiplying reel, thirty to forty pound line, a minimum four ounce lead, and large baits, usually  consisting of lugworm, ragworm, peeler crab, herring strips, mussels, or various combinations of these. One or two hook rigs were used, these were cast out, the rod was put in a stand, or leaned against the pier railings etc, and a bite was awaited. Some clipped small bells on their rod tips and went to sleep while awaiting such a serendipitous event, others wandered around talking to their mates, smoking and drinking tea, or other "fortifying" beverages, often requiring them to make mad dashes down the length of the pier when their bells rung, and their rods threatened to go over the side. More well to do anglers, had "radium" lights, which were filled with luminescent radioactive gas, cost a veritable fortune, and were screwed or clipped to the rod tip. Occasionally some unfortunate would bugger up a cast, or forget to remove his clip light from his rod before casting, and the light sailed off into the distance, often accompanied by a cracking sound as the terminal tackle followed it on its way to the watery depths, which in turn was accompanied by a steady stream of inventive and colourful profanity, often to the amusement and elucidation of all present, especially some of the younger lads, who presumably laboured for some considerable time under the misapprehension that "fucking" and similar equally unprintable epithets had something to do with radioactive tip-lights. Someone chucking a bell away was not nearly as enlightening for bystanders, and elicited rather less interest. Some inevitably became curious about my gear, especially if I had caught a bagfull on my "hairy fancies" as one gentleman once described my flies. My intention at that time when fishing, was invariably to catch a bagfull, and that in the cheapest and most efficient way possible. My family, and not a small number of my neighbours, depended on it for a decent dinner.  Having had some success with flies in freshwater, I had turned my attentions to the North Sea, as the fish were usually bigger, and there were a lot more of them. Bait was difficult to acquire, and was far too expensive to buy, so I had resolved to try "fly-fishing" there as well. This particular set of "hairy fancies" were made up of 3/0 Mustad stainless steel "beak" hooks, wrapped with silver tinsel, and sporting "wings" of various coloured bucktail.  My technique was quite simple, albeit somewhat strenuous. With a  two or three step "run-up", a whirl very similar to that performed by a hammer thrower,  and a mighty twisting overhead heave, usually instilling considerable fear and amazement in the hearts and minds of any innocent bystanders, especially those who used "normal" gear, even in those who had seen it before, putting an awe inspiring bend into the old solid glass rod, the heavy wooden centrepin was forced into revolving at a speed for which it was never designed, producing thereby the most amazing noises, faintly reminiscent of a defective differential gear, or a rusty dungeon door being swung at high speed. This despite regular applications of fat to the "bearing", the while being braked by the thumb of my right hand to prevent the otherwise inevitable and horrendous "birds nest",  and the "flies" hurtled out, carried by the eight ounce lead, to land with an almighty splash, which could be heard even in the worst of storms and gales, as it was rarely more than about forty yards away when it struck the water. Which circumstance however had the pleasant side-effect of always assuring me plenty of room, even when the pier was crowded. My "flies" were then retrieved at various speeds and in various modes, until I caught a fish.  This happy event occurred surprisingly often, much to the chagrin of those who had previously laughed, and who notwithstanding their veritable armouries of wonderful and often expensive equipment had still not caught anything. Fortunately nobody was frightened half to death on this occasion, as there was nobody there. Having assembled my gear, I essayed my first cast of the day. This cast was always of the utmost importance, and had to be executed with considerable care, in fact the first few casts had to be done in such a way, as otherwise a jam up was quite likely, and the loss of expensive terminal gear inevitable. A careful and relatively modest thirty yard cast was the order of the day. Having accomplished this, I took up the slack, and placing the line over my right index finger, the butt of my rod tucked under my elbow, and my left hand supporting it by holding the rim of the reel, I started a jigging retrieve. Thump! and thump! again, heaving back on the rod I struck, and proceeded to haul in a couple of lively fish, beautiful whiting well over a pound each. These were hauled straight up the thirty foot drop by winding in, despatched, unhooked, and the next cast was prepared. In all the now well over forty years I have been fishing, I have never had a session like I had that day, and I will never do so again, as nowadays I would cease to fish after getting a few good ones.  The fish were there, a large shoal of hungry whiting and they were biting like crazy, I was hauling up two or three fish every cast, some really nice sized ones as well, but all were at least sizeable. Even in those days I was an optimist, and I had brought two large sacks with me and a polythene bag, which was actually designed to be used as a makeshift raincoat should the weather be really nasty.  I filled both sacks and the bag, and continued to fish like a lunatic, the pile of fish on the pier behind me continued to grow apace, but still I carried on, as if in a trance. Several people had now come on to the pier which had opened in the meantime, and stood watching, some started fishing, but I was oblivious to everything, and continued almost mechanically hauling up fish after fish. . Some time after mid-day I came to my senses, and viewed the carnage all around me.  I reeled in my gear and started gutting and filleting fish, several people asked if they might have a fish, and I told them to help themselves.  For several hours I filleted fish like a madman, emptying the sacks and the bag again on to the boards, and filleting those too,and even after filleting everything, and throwing all the guts and even the heads away as well, something I would not usually have done, as they made excellent soup, I still had two large sacks full of solid fish fillets, which I could only just lift. It took me almost seven hours to get home, and was well after dark  long before I got there. Carrying one sack a few hundred yards along the beach, dumping it, … read more »

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Question:

Hi,   We’re planning a trip to Vermont for a few days in mid-August following a visit to Boston to attend a wedding (we’re in California). We’d like to find a nice B&B or inn where we can get in some hiking and ff. Any recommendations? Thanks, Gary

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We’re planning a trip to Vermont for a few days in mid-August following a visit to Boston to attend a wedding (we’re in California). We’d like to find a nice B&B or inn where we can get in some hiking and ff. Any recommendations? Thanks, Gary

Gary, Check out By The Old Mill Stream … if you cannot find them on the web, drop me an email, and I will get it for you.  The owner, Steve, is a real nice guy and a fly fisher himself. All the best, Jame

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The reluctant panther in manchester village is wonderful and is 50 feet from the fly fishing museum, 150 feet from the original site of Orvis, 7.5 minute walk from Orvis headquaters, accross the street from glen eagles golf course and virtually next door to the Equinox Hotel (get directions to their pond..located up the mountai behind the hotel..very nice lake bows). The restaurant is wonderful in the inn.  you’ll love it!! I. Clair

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Question:

Because there are so many models of  fly lines available, selection can get pretty confusing.  I have a huge amount of info about fly lines on the Tech Info page of my web site.  I’d suggest you punch up the following address: "http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish/LineSpec.html"  and then click on the hyperlink "Line Tapers" and read that section.  It covers the subject pretty thoroughly.

To Dan, Bill, and all the others in this thread: Thank you, thank you, thank you!  Dan’s web page on line tapers and design specs is a *wonderful* resource for deciding on line types.  I think I’m starting to understand what kind of line I’ll be needing for the small streams and lakes I’ll be fishing. It’s good to see that newsgroups still have good folks who can provide really useful information these days.  I really appreciate the help. Thanks again, Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

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speaking for myself…a weight forward is not necessary on small streams. In fact, it will kind of splash down and make a lot of noise, I only yuse a weight forward for long hauls and big poppers.  for small streams stick with the doublt taper and in five years you can turn it around and use the other end. If you don’t really know how much money to spend, econmize, but take care of your lines with dressing for a long life….john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

I agree with staying with a DT line in small waters.   A good quality fly line is worth the money, it will float higher and longer and will not crack and soak water as a cheap line will. Good Fishing; Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. Hi Joseph, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this one, but if you intend fishing *small*/*medium* streams with a floating line, then I would go for a double taper every time for the sake of superior presentation.  A weight forward line will give you an easier cast when you are looking for a bit extra distance, without too much emphasis on the presentation. FWIW thats what I think. — Bill

Response:

I cut a DT line in half and put it on a reel for use on small streams.  My son took it to the Lamar River in Yellowstone without knowing he only had 1/2 of a line.  It was cold and he had to wade over the top of his hip waders to reach the places where the fish were holding.  Ask him what he thinks of cutting a line in half.   — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GO TO http://www.ccnet.com/~emh FOR ECONOMY WADING BOOT PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…   You don’t have to cut the line in two to get the equivalent of two lines, just reverse it when one end gets worn. Willi

Response:

You should purchase the best line you can afford.  Cheap floating lines soon become sink tips, and full sinking lines.  If you have a local shop ask if you can cast some.  They generally have some lines on demo reels.  See which feel best on your rod.  I like stay away from the Cortland Lazer line.  SA has many very good lines, and get a good line cleaner when you get the line. Good Luck

Response:

  Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…

  You don’t have to cut the line in two to get the equivalent of two lines, just reverse it when one end gets worn. Willi

Response:

speaking for myself…a weight forward is not necessary on small streams. In fact, it will kind of splash down and make a lot of noise, I only yuse a weight forward for long hauls and big poppers.  for small streams stick with the doublt taper and in five years you can turn it around and use the other end. If you don’t really know how much money to spend, econmize, but take care of your lines with dressing for a long life….john

The statement John makes about WF being less delicate is no longer *necessarily* true.  If the WF has a short front taper (~4ft.) then it will be less delicate and will disturb the water more than a standard DT line.  If it has a front taper of ~6ft. it will be just as delicate as the standard DT which also have ~6ft. of front taper.  There are so many different variations available of both, that it’s no longer a valid generality about WF vs. DT lines.  In the Cortland lines, the WF is *more* delicate than their DT because in that brand the front taper of the WF is considerably longer than the taper on their DT.  In this thread, Bill Kienne recommends using the Cortland DT line because it has a shorter taper than the WF in that brand.  You need to know how long the front taper is on both types of lines of them to judge the delicacy you can expect.  Again, I’d recommend a look at my web page on fly lines (http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish/LineSpec.html) for more info about tapers and how they affect the performance of the line. Another caution, if you decide on the DT for the sake of economy, be sure to turn the line around every 6 months to be able to use both tapers. If you wait 5 years to turn it around, the unused end of the DT will be ruined from being coiled so tightly on the reel. I second John’s recommendation to clean and dress your lines for longer life.                                 hope this helps,                                       Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA  Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…

Hi All, We recommend double tapers for short to medium casting on streams. You can turn the line around ever season to get double the value. Double tapers have shorter front tapers, so they load up the rod better with very little line out past the tip. I don’t recommend cutting the line in half unless your reel is too small. From #3 to #5 this works well, but at a #6 we go to weight forward line as those larger rods are used on lakes and larger rivers. Besides, a double taper #6 floater will take up a lot of room on a reel, leaving little or no space for backing. I like the Scientific Angler Mastery Head Start line at $29.95 (WF only) or the Cortland Peach 444 line (DT or WF) at $36 for the best values in fly lines. Below this price level  you get into lines that don’t shoot very well. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance.

Hi Joe, Whether you get a better presentation from a DT or a WF line depends on the front taper of the line and varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.  Most people believe you get a better presentation with the DT lines because they have a longer front taper than the WF lines. It used to be common for WF lines to have ~4ft. long front tapers and DT to have ~6ft. long front tapers.   That is no longer necessarily so.  The Orvis WF and DT lines (with the exception of specialty lines) have exactly the same specs for the first 37 ft.(6ft. long front tapers).  SA supposedly changed their tapers a couple of years ago to similar specs.  Cortland however has 10ft. to as much as an 18ft.of front taper on some of their WF lines and ~8ft. on their DT lines.  Bill Kienne may be able to give us better specifics on the Cortland and SA lines. So if you get an Orvis or SA line, the WF will be just as delicate as the DT line.  With a Cortland line the WF will be *more delicate* than their DT line. In all cases the WF will allow you to make longer casts if you decide to fish Lake Crowley, the Mammoth Lakes, or the June Lakes Loop area.   The only time I recommend a DT line anymore is for making long (60 ft or so) roll casts which are much more difficult to do with a WF line (hard to put enough energy into the skinny runny line of a WF to turn over the belly section). Because there are so many models of  fly lines available, selection can get pretty confusing.  I have a huge amount of info about fly lines on the Tech Info page of my web site.  I’d suggest you punch up the following address: "http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish/LineSpec.html"  and then click on the hyperlink "Line Tapers" and read that section.  It covers the subject pretty thoroughly.                              Hope this helps,                                      Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

Response:

I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod.

Joe,  You’ll find that roll-cast pickups, which you’ll use a lot on small to medium sized streams, are much easier with a double-taper….A GOOD double-taper….and unfortunately…the $40+ lines ARE a better made line than the real cheapies.  You can throw a line pretty well with a few of the better cheapies, but you’ll really notice a vast improvement in your casting with a better line….Ultra3…Cortland_SL..Orvis’s Hy-Float floater.  Try a couple before you buy if you can…they all are slightly different in their casting characteristics….I forgot the Triangle-Tapers!     You’ll enjoy the whole experience more with a better line, steve

Response:

I would not go with a WF but stay with the DT. The DT has a much better presentation on small to medium streams.

You think so?  I was hoping to be able to cast upstream a bit further, and i thought maybe a WF line would help me.  But if the DT is better for all-around angling in small streams, I guess I’ll stick with that. Thus the reason I carry at least two spools. Alas lets not forget the sinking. So there are three spools to get.

Argh.  After I got hooked on fly fishing, I bit the bullet and bought an Orvis Battenkill 5/6 reel.  It’s a good, solid reel, but I couldn’t afford the durn extra spools, so I’ll have to wait until I’m good enough to justify the extra spool costs.  If I knew then what I know now, maybe I would have saved the bucks on the reel, and bought a cheaper reel body that came with cheaper spools.  Live and learn.     But what I think you’re asking is what brand to use?? I have had good luck with CORTLAND, and ORVIS.

Yes.  There are so many brand names and it’s pretty confusing.  When it comes to spin-casting, I’ve tried just about any line out there, because it’s just a matter of $5-$15 tops for different styles/makes/brands of monofilament (and even for braided lines).  But when I’m going to drop $40-$50 on ONE fly line, I want to try to educate myself a little more. It may not be a big investment for some folks, but for me, I’ve gotta save my pennies for a while to drop the money for my own toys (I have a baby son whose priorities are a little higher than my own right now). What I’m looking for is real-world experiences from fly fishers who are more experienced than me, so I won’t get stuck with a lemon of a fly line that I’ll have to live with for a couple of seasons. Thanks for the help, James. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

I would agree with you Bill.  I fish the Eastern and Western Sierras and a double taper is all I ever use.   — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail GO TO http://www.ccnet.com/~emh FOR ECONOMY WADING BOOT PLANS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. Hi Joseph, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this one, but if you intend fishing *small*/*medium* streams with a floating line, then I would go for a double taper every time for the sake of superior presentation.  A weight forward line will give you an easier cast when you are looking for a bit extra distance, without too much emphasis on the presentation. FWIW thats what I think. — Bill

Response:

Joe,     I would not go with a WF but stay with the DT. The DT has a much better presentation on small to medium streams. For bigger water and high winds I would use a WF. Thus the reason I carry at least two spools. Alas lets not forget the sinking. So there are three spools to get.     But what I think you’re asking is what brand to use?? I have had good luck with CORTLAND, and ORVIS. Cortland 444 I found to be a great line and it has the specifics of the line printed on it so if you ever take it off your real you will be able to tell what the heck it was. I find my lines usually last a couple of seasons with proper care. So protect your investment (about $40.00 to $50.00) with a good line care product.     Also I found putting out about $40.00 for a fly line is well worth it I had some bad experiences with the less expensive brands. If you plan on practicing your casting on anything but water I would keep the old line to get beat up instead of the new one. Hope this helps.

Response:

But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing.

Hi Joseph, I know there are those who will disagree with me on this one, but if you intend fishing *small*/*medium* streams with a floating line, then I would go for a double taper every time for the sake of superior presentation.  A weight forward line will give you an easier cast when you are looking for a bit extra distance, without too much emphasis on the presentation. FWIW thats what I think. — Bill

Response:

Joseph I posted a similar question a couple of months ago and was inundated with responses (I ended up getting a Cortland 444 which is an excellent line). Try going to www.dejanews.com and type in "floating lines" in the search box. You will be able to read the (considerable) replies I got. — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

Joe- My preference would be a Lee Wulff triangle taper line. At short distances it casts like a double taper, it roll casts beautifully and, when you really need it, it will let you reach out as with a weight forward line. It ain’t cheap, but with care I have over ten years on my first one!In – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still using the first fly line I’ve ever gotten (received as a gift), which is a 3M DT-6-F.  Luckily, it happened to match the noodle-ey rod I learned on, and when I got good enough to move up a notch and buy a pretty good graphite rod (St. Croix), I just moved the whole setup to the new rod. But, I’m ready to try a new line.  I want to try a weight-forward line, and I plan to use it on relatively small-to-medium streams and waters, mostly here in the Easter Sierra Nevadas where I live.  I’d prefer a floating line for my style of fishing. But I’m overwhelmed with the choices!  I’ve read all the ads in my Orvis and LL Bean catalogs, as well as hit a couple of web pages, but I’m still at a loss.  What’s the real scoop?  Is a $40 line really that much better than a $12 one?  I honestly don’t know, since I’ve only ever used my 3M cheapie line. I’d love to hear some real-world experiences, so I can maybe whittle down the choices a bit, and choose the right line for me.  Can you folks help out a not-so-newbie-but-still-ignorant-about-fly-lines?  I’d really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance. Joe G. Tehachapi, CA

  Another reason to buy a DT:  Cut it in half, you’ve now got two lines and since you’re fishing small streams, you’re not going to be holding 45 feet of line in the air…

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Question:

JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in the world. There will be areas, such as Christmas Island, where you will find more fish, and others, such as Florida where you can find bigger fish- but nowhere are you likely to find larger number of big size fish- the norm there is 4-6 lbs. With angler having daily opportunity of fish in the 8-10 lbs class, and good chances of a shot at larger fish during the week. The area also possesses a wonderful variety of angling opportunities. In one recent weeks, 20 different species of fish were caught, including Tarpon (up to 50 lbs), Permit (one angler recently landed 3 in a week to 40 lbs), Barracuda, Bonito, Shark and many different types of Jack and Snapper. Fax 39-2-714447 or 39-2-76118214             Internet     http://www.gse.it/avalon  

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Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way  to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

— Spare me A.T. 1. Until the end of Communist Russia, the US had state dinners with its leaders as it fought the 3d World, underdeveloped "Commies." 2. One of the reasons I turned against our government during Vietnam was: here’s the enemy–Commies, heathens, Gooks–trying to kill me. So why is President Nixon having dinner with Chou-en-Lai, Mao?!the leaders supplying the VC/NVA. What BS! 3. Let’s see, Tiananmen Square, China, same leaders then as now. So we’re trading with that country. What is this country’s obsession with bringing down Castro when we support more ruthless leaders in the world. 4. Nelson Mandela supports(ed) Communism, we made him a hero during his visit to this country. Enough, this is a fly fishing NG.

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Sometimes I’m embarassed to be an american. As if the US doesn’t support far more oppressive regimes. Also, if you expand your notion of what oppression is, you might see that there is far more in the US. I once spoke to someone that lived under Franco who said that he felt far more free there. He didn’t get all sorts of capitalist goodies but had no fears for his safety, no matter where he went. We are all alone in the world in our view of Cuba. I agree completely that his dictatorship is wrong but can you really say that the Cuban voter is more impotent than the american voter?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

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Fax 39-2-714447 or 39-2-76118214             Internet

(snip) http://www.gse.it/avalon Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

Then you don’t buy anything from China, right?  And is it just oppressive COMMUNIST dictators, or is it oppressive dictators in general?   Del Cecchi Rochester, MN

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fax 39-2-714447 or 39-2-76118214             Internet (snip) http://www.gse.it/avalon Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer Then you don’t buy anything from China, right?  And is it just oppressive COMMUNIST dictators, or is it oppressive dictators in general? Del Cecchi Rochester, MN

  Thanks Del I always liked people from Minnisota, must be the proximity to God’s country! While this is not really the forum to extend this thread. I was wondering where Mr. Spencer and his buddies Torricelli, Helms and Burton fish now that the pinkos have taken over Nicaragua? I suppose there is always Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico etc. Mark "commie" Brown Calgary, Alberta

Response:

JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in the world. There will be areas, such as Christmas Island, where you will find more fish, and others, such as Florida where you can find bigger fish- but nowhere are you likely to find larger number of big size fish- the norm there is 4-6 lbs. Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

Oh, puh-lease. I don’t like Castro, but his regime is no more oppressive than dozens of others the United States supports, such as the PRC or any of the ultra-right-wing dictatorships we’ve propped up in Central and South America, Africa, Europe and Asia over the last 50 years. We’ve had many opportunities to co-opt Castro over the years in positive economic and humanitarian ways but we haven’t done it. Instead, we go for the d.f. military or blockade or boycott methodology. Even today, our state department makes it difficult to go to Cuba while at the same time, just about anyone can go to the PRC. If that isn’t b.s., what is? — To respond via EMAIL to a newsgroup post, remove -nospam from my address. – - – - – - This is your brain.  Postscript on brain your is This.

Response:

JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in the world. There will be areas, such as Christmas Island, where you will find more fish, and others, such as Florida where you can find bigger fish- but nowhere are you likely to find larger number of big size fish- the norm there is 4-6 lbs.

Snip-snip negative replies removed.. Oh, puh-lease. I don’t like Castro, but his regime is no more oppressive than dozens of others the United States supports, such as the PRC or any of the ultra-right-wing dictatorships we’ve propped up in Central and South America, Africa, Europe and Asia over the last 50 years. We’ve had many opportunities to co-opt Castro over the years in positive economic and humanitarian ways but we haven’t done it. Instead, we go for the d.f. military or blockade or boycott methodology. Even today, our state department makes it difficult to go to Cuba while at the same time, just about anyone can go to the PRC. If that isn’t b.s., what is?

OK, so here’s one for ya’. I am one of the persons who actually TRIED to go fishing in Cuba. I sent a letter to the ministry of tourisim in Havana, and got back a nice letter. It was all in spanish, and I had to have it translated. The Cuban Government informed me that I would have to obtain a tourist visa from the Chechoslovakian Embassy in Washington, DC. I would then have to fly from Tampa to Montreal, Canada, where I could catch a flight to Havana. From there, things got worse. Hey, Cuba is a short distance from Florida. Go to Montreal? The headache and expense was enormous, when all was said and done. I canceled the trip. Now, I have little doubt that there is a State Department file somewhere about me asking about the fishing in Cuba. Guess I’ll just keep fishing Florida! Mike Lott Fish Florida Magazine http://www.fishflorida.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way  to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer — Spare me A.T. 1. Until the end of Communist Russia, the US had state dinners with its leaders as it fought the 3d World, underdeveloped "Commies." 2. One of the reasons I turned against our government during Vietnam was: here’s the enemy–Commies, heathens, Gooks–trying to kill me. So why is President Nixon having dinner with Chou-en-Lai, Mao?!the leaders supplying the VC/NVA. What BS! 3. Let’s see, Tiananmen Square, China, same leaders then as now. So we’re trading with that country. What is this country’s obsession with bringing down Castro when we support more ruthless leaders in the world. 4. Nelson Mandela supports(ed) Communism, we made him a hero during his visit to this country. Enough, this is a fly fishing NG.

The "oppressive" regimes the U.S. has supported is almost an endless list. Whatever reasons remain to isolate Cuba are not credible.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, puh-lease. I don’t like Castro, but his regime is no more oppressive than dozens of others the United States supports, such as the PRC or any of the ultra-right-wing dictatorships we’ve propped up in Central and South America, Africa, Europe and Asia over the last 50 years. We’ve had many opportunities to co-opt Castro over the years in positive economic and humanitarian ways but we haven’t done it. Instead, we go for the d.f. military or blockade or boycott methodology. Even today, our state department makes it difficult to go to Cuba while at the same time, just about anyone can go to the PRC. If that isn’t b.s., what is? You seem to have taken a place among the minority on this point. However, as is usually the case, we can ever be thankful that the decision by the majority not to succumb to the illogical demands of an un-knowing minority is obviously the correct one. BTW…To answer your last question I submit everything you said preceding it. Finally, since this is an inappropriate topic for this newsgroup this shall be my final post on it. A.T. Spencer

Actually, several recent opinion polls have shown that a majority of Americans *favors* restablishment of full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Even the Pope, who is as conservative as one can be, favors full normal relations between the U.S. and Cuba. Every other country on the planet has full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Cuba is an appropriate subject for a fishing newsgroup. The island has had a long history as a sportfishing mecca. Avid fishermen who have been there and would like to go back are interested. So are younger fishermen who have read fishing tales from Cuba or perhaps only Hemingway’s novella.

Response:

(snip) Actually, several recent opinion polls have shown that a majority of Americans *favors* restablishment of full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Even the Pope, who is as conservative as one can be, favors full normal relations between the U.S. and Cuba. Every other country on the planet has full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Cuba is an appropriate subject for a fishing newsgroup. The island has had a long history as a sportfishing mecca. Avid fishermen who have been there and would like to go back are interested. So are younger fishermen who have read fishing tales from Cuba or perhaps only Hemingway’s novella.

  A nice posting Harry,

Response:

Question:

: Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in : California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states.   I would have to disagree with you on this one, Pat.  If you could point me at some written source of this, I would greatly appreciate it, because it certainly is too bizarre to be true.   I could believe that it is illegal to water ski without an approved life jacket being worn.  But it CANT be illegal to simply wear a PDF that is not approved while boating.   First off, what is the definition of a PFD?  ( I know, it is a personal floatation device).  My bathing suit is not an approved PDF, does that make it illegal to wear?   OK, that was a smart ass answer.  How about a wet suit?  It floats, but is not approved.  Am I breaking your law by wearing my wetsuit while sitting in the ski boat?   How about my SOS suspenders?  Do I really break a law when I put these on?  Does your law really prefer me to wear nothing at all over a non approved floatation device?   I don’t think so.   There are situations that may require a life jacket to be worn. Water skiing may be one of them, but I am not sure.  But there is no requirement for an adult to wear a life jacket in a boat.  There has to be an approved life jacket for him, it doesn’t need to be worn. And putting on a wet suit, or an inflatable device, or even a ski belt shouldn’t be any legal problem.   You might be confusing a rule that was enacted rather recently.  I forget the actual wording, but I believe that it required *children* under a certain age (I think it was 12) to wear an approved life jacket whenever the boat was underway *unless* any of a whole bunch of exceptions.  The exceptions included being in an enclosed cabin or being tethered.   Rod McInnis

Response:

i live on a lake and use skibelts for just swimming around.  i don’t, and don’t allow visitors to swim unless they wear some type of floatation.  since we don’t jump or play any water sports here, the skibelts are nice to just float in the water off of the dock.  i really dislike having vests riding up under my armpits. so i like to keep skibelts around.  but i’m having difficult times finding them too and i suspect soon i won’t be able to find any.  last i looked, E&B Marine still carried some inexpensive ones.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any

non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other

states.  You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as

dangerous as this one.  You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on

an unconsciencious or disoriented person.  I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one

nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat.  My comments to the original poster was about these ski

belts only, no other device was mentioned.

<snippers Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

I’m afraid that I still have to stand by my original statement regarding the legality/illegality of wearing non-USCG approved PFD’s, including ski belts. There are two "sets" of law in California which deal with the wearing of life jackets: the first is the Charter Boat Safety Act, which empowers (and requires) the Captain of commercial vessels to order passengers into life jackets under particular conditions; the second, which is the one with which we are concerned at the moment, is the Harbours and Navigation Code, Section 658.3: "658.3.  (a) No person shall operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel that is 26 feet or less in length unless every person on board who is six years of age or less is wearing a type I, II, or III Coast Guard-approved personal flotation device while that motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is underway.    (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a sailboat on which a person who is six years of age or less is restrained by a harness tethered to the vessel, or to a person operating a vessel on which a person who is six years of age or less is in an enclosed cabin.    (c) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel if the operator is reacting to an emergency rescue situation.    (d) The following definitions govern the construction of this section:    (1) "Enclosed cabin" means a space on board a vessel that is surrounded by bulkheads and covered by a roof.    (2) "Operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel" means to be in control or in charge of a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel while it is underway.    (3) "Underway" means all times except when the motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is anchored, moored, or aground.    (e) A violation of this section is an infraction punishable as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 668." Nothing in this section can be construed as to forbid the wearing of non-approved floatation devices, as requiring a person to wear an approved device is not the same as forbidding the wearing of an unapproved one, nor is the wearing of PFD’s by anyone over the age of six addressed in any way. An exhaustive search of all current California State Law failed to turn up any other section which would forbid persons aged 21 or under from wearing  non-approved PFD’s. So while these ski belts may, indeed, be dangerous in some situations, it is not illegal for anyone to wear them. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

:Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG :approved PFD here in :California while boating or watersking Must be some interesting wording to that legislation. Lets see, my wetsuit offers a little boyancy, is it illegal to wear because its not an approved PFD? I guess its illegal to wear something which isn’t a PFD but *sombody* might think *is* a PFD? — george  

Response:

:To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a :great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or :not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose :society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all :risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to :which all people are entitled. you know I agree completely, and I’ve said as much on many ocasions. I dont know what came over me to propose such a thing.. — george  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippers : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming.   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc.     Rod McInnis

But my comment was not directed at the wisdom of wearing PFD’s during any particular activity, rather whether or not such wearing of PFD’s should be a matter of legislation. Is it smart to wear a PFD anytime you go into the water? Of course – you never knows when you might slip and fall, particularly when dealing with slippery wet rocks such as one finds in trout streams. Does this then mean that you should be *forced at gunpoint* (for such is the actual implication of such legisation) to wear a PFD during this activity? The risk of drowning is every bit as real as it is during boating, and possibly even greater than the risk of drowning while waterskiing, since while waterskiing rescue is readily available and one actually expects to fall down from time to time. To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to which all people are entitled. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them.

Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states.  You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as dangerous as this one.  You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on an unconsciencious or disoriented person.  I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat.  My comments to the original poster was about these ski belts only, no other device was mentioned.      We know that USCG until recently had not approved the automatic inflatable type one life vest, but that was due to an argument over how to inspect them for functionality.  These vests are arguably the safest available because they are relatively comfortable and provide the most bouyancy of any vest sold in most stores. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

Response:

 I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended.  For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing?  If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded.

As best as I can find it is legislated at the state level.  In NC you must wear a CG approved flotation device while skiing, etc only if there is not a designated spotter other than the boat driver.  If you’ve got a spotter then nothing or a belt is ok.  I have both and many of the adults prefer the belt but I tell the kids they have to wear the jacket. As to a source, the discount catalogs have them.  Around here Walmart has them and Boaters Discount World, a boat store chain also have them. They’re $7-$9. Lawrence…….

Response:

|   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in | regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to | any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped | violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, | etc.   … or riding in a boat.  You never know what you’ll run into, or what will run into you.  Many folks where seatbelts in their car, for the same reason. — Bob Wood                                                       ascom Nexion                                                        phone:  508-266-2350

Response:

: : :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : :should never be used on a human. : : we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, : which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, : but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. : I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t : be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably : by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills : and slipping right out of the belts. : : : — : george   : : : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming.   I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion.  George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating.  I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc.     Rod McInnis

Response:

: Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life : preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" :   : Don Land   Why on Earth do you want one?   I always enjoyed giving the girls the ski belt because of the increased likelyhood that they would lose their bathing suit top.  :-)   But they are just not a good idea.  I doubt that they would be Coast Guard approved as a life jacket, since they have no tendency to right an unconccious wearer.  In fact, I remember taking a fall wearing one of those and having it slip down to my knees!  Definately not a perferred position!   Rod McInnis

Response:

They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and should never be used on a human. Pat — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george    

If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming. Don’t get me wrong – I think that life vests are extremely useful items and I wouldn’t dream of going sailing without them. But this nanny-state attitude has *really* got to stop. I do not defer responsibility for my own life to the State, nor will I allow that responsibility to be taken from me by force by meddling do-gooders. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

:They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george  

Response:

: They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : should never be used on a human. : Pat   Are you sure that they are "illegal"?   I am pretty sure that they no longer qualify as a type three life saving device.  But that doesn’t make them illegal, they just don’t count.   I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended.   For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing?   If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded.   Barefoot water skiiers tend to *not* wear the Coast Guard approved life jackets.  Instead, a wet suit is worn (even in warm water).   The reason is simple, taking a fall barefooting will rip most jackets right off your body.  And I can tell you that it doesn’t feel too good to have a life jacket ripped off.   If you wear a wet suit, and keep your body lines smooth, you will skim across the surface of the water.  The special "barefoot" suits have extra padding on the seat (what you try to fall on) and chest (which is what hits when you "trip").   They provide plenty of floatation, but are not an approved life jacket.   Another place where life jackets are rarely worn are trick skiers. The jacket impedes thier motion, and the competition seems to be as much on swim suit fashion as anything else.   Rod McInnis

Response:

They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in most states.  The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and should never be used on a human. Pat — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything"  PH

Response:

Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" Don Land

Response:

Question:

Anyone have any comments on the use of sinking and sinktip lines as i do quite a bit of lake fishing and I still prefer to stick with the flyrod. cheers — gp

Response:

I have fished lakes extensively, and used all types of sinking and sink tip lines.  It’s kind of a trade off between water depth, line density and sink tip length and leader length.  I have found full sinking (intermediate, med. density and fast sinking shooting heads) to be more effective than sink tips, but it’s probably personal preference.  The teeny nymph T series lines are good too (a T200 works well with 5, 6 weights). I haven’t used uniform sink lines, but they seem like a good idea.   Sinking lines are difficult to pick up out of the water, but once you do you can cast them a mile.  Remember, use a short leader, so as not to defeat the purpose of a sinking line.  Hang on, there are some big fish in some of the lakes I fish.

Response:

Anyone have any comments on the use of sinking and sinktip lines as i do quite a bit of lake fishing and I still prefer to stick with the flyrod. cheers — gp

With in the past 5 years I have gone to a Uniform Sink tip line as you can maintain the fly in the fishing zone longer.  With a sink tip you strip or troll though the zone but don’t remain in the zone.  This is the same with fullsinking line.  I have been using this line find it to much more effective for lake fishing.  Check it out.  Joe

Response:

: Anyone have any comments on the use of sinking and sinktip lines as i do : quite a bit of lake fishing and I still prefer to stick with the flyrod. : cheers I have made up a number of short lead core lines with a loop at each end. To fish deep, I simply attach one of these lead leaders to any line. The can also be used as a shooting head with a small diameter shooting line or just a small level line. Works well, and it’s cheap. –mike

Response:

: Anyone have any comments on the use of sinking and sinktip lines as i do : quite a bit of lake fishing and I still prefer to stick with the flyrod. : cheers I have made up a number of short lead core lines with a loop at each end. To fish deep, I simply attach one of these lead leaders to any line. The can also be used as a shooting head with a small diameter shooting line or just a small level line. Works well, and it’s cheap. –mike

Mike I have good luck with cutting Cortland 333 Level Sinking line into 2′ 4′ and 6′ segments and putting loops on both ends. Tom

Response:

: Anyone have any comments on the use of sinking and sinktip lines as i do : quite a bit of lake fishing and I still prefer to stick with the flyrod. : cheers Gordon, I have used a sinking line for several years, and find it to be a nuisance to cast with; probably I should use a sink-tip instead. The major problem is that your rod has to have enough oomph to quickly get the line airborne – very easy when it’s floating on the surface, and hell when it’s submerged. Casting a sinker will cause you to work on your casting style I also tried using a length of lead-core trolling line to do some flyfishing for walleye – caught a fish (eventually) but that stuff is hazardous to cast. Conventional sinking lines will work okay to about 15 feet. Go to Hi-D (or leadcore) to go deeper. Best fly-caught laker was about 10#, from Great Slave Lake, on a sinker. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

Response:

Question:

Could someone please give me the subscription address (or phone #) to fly fisherman magazine? Also any other fly fishing publications that can be recommended would be appreciated. And as a final request, I would like the address or phone for some good mail order fly fishing companies.  Thanks a lot in advance, Brian D. Hadley            

Fly Fisherman PO Box 3474 Mount Morris Il 61054-9937 If you live in California a fairly recent publication that is very good is the California Fly Fisher. The subscription address is: California Fly Fisher PO Box 40429 San Francisco, Ca 94140 John

Response:

 Could someone please give me the subscription address (or phone #) to fly fisherman magazine? Also any other fly fishing publications that can  be recommended would be appreciated. And as a final request, I would like  the address or phone for some good mail order fly fishing companies.   Thanks a lot in advance, Brian D. Hadley            

Response: