Question:

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.

If the Outback is too small for you, look at the Forester.  It has more room in all ways, but still isn’t a gas hog or road-warrier. — David L. Johnson    __o   | I don’t believe you, you’ve got the whole damn thing all wrong.  _`(,_  | He’s not the kind you have to wind-up on Sundays.  –Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson   — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out. A 4 runner towed me out – for a case of beer.

20 PSI is generally too high. Try 15 or even 10 PSI next time and you can probably go anywhere. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

in rec.autos.4×4, Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot of scars to prove it – trying to get it out.

Down to 20psi? For sand try more like 5-8 psi…. I run 2-3 psi in the snow/sand. ~Brian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot

I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse. — Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Outback simply SUCK for beach riding. I almost lost mine in Kauai. Yes, I took the air down to 20psi and all that funky stuff. It doesn’t have a real 4×4 and only the wheel with least resistance spins. I know, I have a lot I thought those fancy modern "All Wheel Drive" systems are supposed to power the wheels that DO get traction. I guess I’ll stick with my old assumption, that AWD is good for cars on less-than-perfect roads / weather, and not much else. Maybe different AWD systems from different manufacturers are better or worse.

  There is a small difference between the AWD system on   cars like the Porsche Turbo, Audi S6, Lamborghini,   Porsche Cayenne, and the considerably less expensive   ones found on lesser vehicles.

Response:

I’ve driven my Jeep Wrangler on the NC outer banks beaches.  It’s actually pretty tough conditions getting over the dune trails.  I saw a Subaru getting pulled out of the deep sand – he was buried up to his frame, and two really big 4wd trucks were having trouble getting him out.  Depending on recent weather, you might have to drive quite a distance through the softest, driest sand you can imagine, with really deep tracks that require good clearance.  On the beach I see mostly 4WD trucks and "normal/large" size SUVs, not the small ones.  You need to lower your tire pressure to 15-10 psi.  Once you clear the really soft sand you can drive easily.  There’s nothing like the outer banks beaches – sometimes you can drive till you can barley see another vehicle, and have a mile of beach all to yourself.  Other times it’s like a parking lot of 4×4s.  Not sure why.  You can also ride a mountain bike along the hard sand at the water’s edge, but the sand and salt are really bad for the bike… Brad — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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This past April I had my GMC Sarfari AWD van on the beaches in Hatteras… deflate the air pressure in your tires to 20psi and off you go!!! Everything fits in, or, or behind the van. — Marty S. Baltimore, MD  USA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Response:

James, If I had the money to blow on a new car, I’d probably buy a Honda Element. This seems to meet all of your criteria, and is available in four wheel drive. We (wife and I) have considered buying one but have decided to wait a couple of years for a Hybrid gasoline/ electric vehicle. (Toyota Highlander, Ford Escape, and Saturn VUE hybrids will all available within the next couple of years, as will a Toyota Sienna Hybrid AWD (a real wallet-buster, no doubt.) Until then, we’re still cramming all of our stuff into our Saturn Wagon! The bikes go on a receiver hitch rack in the back. Dave Wissenbach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

– rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

I guess for the beach you need wide tires and 4 wheel drive? I am sure that down around Corpus Christi they have some favorite vehicles? I think I have seen Chevy Suburbans in some articles? — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, CA www.kiene.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

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Response:

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof.

I like Outbacks, but at 6′3" (not overly tall) I found they have a serious lack of legroom.  I don’t see how you can say they have way more interior space than an average SUV, as my smallish 2-door Explorer is roomier.  Maybe more cargo space than a CRV or RAV 4, but those are quite a bit smaller than average size and still have more legroom. Nice vehicles though if you can fit in them. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Be wary of the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape twins (they are mechanically identical, built by Ford).  They are good vehicles on paper, but have fairly poor reliability and resale value. The Jeep Liberty also has shown poor reliability and resale.  It is more capable off road than the Tribute/Escape but rides rougher, doesn’t drive as nice, is less roomy and gets poorer fuel economy. A well used Toyota 4-runner would be a better vehicle than either the Escape/Tribute or the Liberty are new.  But it is probably more than what you need. Take a long look at a Subaru Outback or Forester.  Also a Honda CRV and Toyota RAV4 would probably meet your needs.  The CRV is especially nice for kids as it has a minivan-like passthough to the back seats. The Hyundai Santa Fe is also a nice vehicle and comes with a great warranty. Do your research and be sure to look at total cost of ownership, including resale value and maintenence costs.  You will find Ford, GM, and Chrysler products really struggle there, while Honda is typically the best. Check out this article: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-08-15-carcosts_x.htm The "cute-utes" are not real off road vehicles only if you plan to rock hop with the Jeeps. They should do fine for what you described. If you had any heavy towing to do I would say differently.  It would be silly to get a more capable 4×4 you would rarely if ever need, and you may get annoyed with the "truckyness" that comes with the bigger 4×4s.  I sure do.  Then again, I really don’t know how serious your off-road plans are.  But I’m guessing not as serious as you think. When I was in high school, my dad had a 2-wheel drive 4-cylinder Ranger.  You may be surprised where I took that thing.  It made a fine hunting vehicle. I can tell you with absolute certainty to stay away from Ford Explorers.  I have one and it is the biggest piece of junk I have ever owned.  And it doesn’t even have 60,000 miles on it yet.  The initial price made it seem like a good value.  But it’s been anything but. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

Check out the Subaru Outback.   Way more interior space than many averaged sized SUV’s.  It’s also much easier to get bikes up on the roof. Barry — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Is it necessary to post again? Well, I’ll reply to a couple other points… we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are

Only if you want one. good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability?

I’ve never seen a campground or park that requires a real 4×4 to get to the site. The worst I’ve seen is the Winterhawk bluegrass festival, which requires you to get up a big, steep hill; if it’s muddy, 2-wheel drive vehicles have a tough time. Some campgrounds do have rather rough paths, but all that’s required is a little extra ground clearance. we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use.

This is when you’ll use it most, on the road. You should probably make that a priority. road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way..

Compact SUVs, as well as larger ones built on a car platform, are not off-road vehicles, no matter what the manufacturer claims. They can handle grass, the path to the campground, etc; but tough stuff like deep in the woods or in deep sand, you need quite the ballsy off-road pickup (or SUV built on a pickup truck platform). Do you expect to drive on the beach? I’ve only ever seen vehicles allowed on the beach on TV shows like Baywatch; nowhere I’ve been, have I seen vehicles permitted to drive onto the sand, or anywhere out of the parking lot. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE?

The Ford Escape is a car-based SUV. It will do anything spectacular. It probably gives a pretty good ride on the road. how is the Jeep liberty?

Reportedly, the Liberty is okay. Never driven one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess

I don’t drive anything on the beach. For fishing/camping/biking, I drove a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am for 5 years; a 1987 Cadillac Sedan Deville for a couple years before that; and now I drive a full size pickup, specifically, a 2002 GMC Sierra 4×4, extended cab, etc. The Caddy and the Pontiac did fine for all sorts of off-road situations, although I did bend a wheel by going too fast in the Caddy on a very rough trail. People who think a low-slung, 2wd car can’t go off road, either have never done it, or are unskilled off-road drivers. They can’t do really gnarly off road stuff; but car-based SUVs can’t either, except that they can deal with a little bit slipperier conditions and a little bit higher clearance issues. ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget

My GMC Sierra, which does NOT have any sort of off-road package, and has lame-looking road tires, is the most comfortable vehicle I’ve ever driven. The tires, which look lame, provide ample grip in all sorts of snow, mud, etc. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute?

I can’t imagine why not. can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james

– Rick Onanian — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

You might want to look at the Suzuki XL-7 (4 wheel drive version).  You could get the third row seat version and still stay close to the upper limit of your price range.  Even an ‘02 model would be good, and most (those sold after August last year) have a transferable 7 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty.  It might be worth looking at. — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

we’re looking for a second car, and i’d like to get something that can go onto the beaches here in nc (and elsewhere). i’m a longtime pier fisher, but will be new to the beach and surf. it *is* necessary to get a good 4×4 as a fisherman in nc, isn’t it?  i’ve heard there are good parks to go camping at also, where you need 4×4 capability? we also need the car to be decent or good on the road, for normal use. we have a new baby… also, my s.o. is only 5′1" tall, while i’m 6′ so i don’t want her to feel the truck is too high (getting in) or too big (reaching the trunk, etc). we’re looking at the MAZDA TRIBUTE. We know it drives well on the road… is the 4 wheel drive V6 reasonable for the beach?? Enough power? Won’t get stuck? I’ve heard compact suv’s like the CRV are not good that way.. any real differences on the FORD ESCAPE? how is the Jeep liberty? Toyota 4runner tops the charts but $$… would have to get a *more* used one. What do you all drive on the beach for fishing/camping/biking? i guess ideally you want a truck truck for the beach, which probably doesn’t ride that well on the road, and a car car for everyday…. but what’s the best of both worlds, or the best compromise?… we have a budget too to consider and we’d like to stay in the 15-22K range for a new, or 1-2 year old, <20-30K miles type of bracket. also, anyone know if a slim thule or other cargo box plus a couple mountain bike trays would fit on top of the Mazda tribute? can you email replies to me, if you also post? thx in advance james — rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers.  To find help solving posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/ Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Response:

Question:

Steve, I have a set of Hodgman neoprene waders and wading boots and they work fine for me.  The only problem I have with them is that I sweat like a pig in them.  I cannot wear any clothes under them that I plan on wearing later as they get soaked.  I just returned from the Pit, McCloud and Burney creek and did not feel cold in the waders at all. Just my $.02, Dustin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

Personally, I doubt if I could get more than 3 seasons out of a pair of waders no mater who made them. Having used all varieties, I am sold on breathables for all weather conditions until it is warm enough to wade wet. In winter (you know, snow and ice) I stay warmer in breathables…. Does anyone get more than 3 seasons?….. john

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

"asadi" < Personally, I doubt if I could get more than 3 seasons out of a pair of waders no mater who made them. Having used all varieties, I am sold on breathables for all weather conditions until it is warm enough to wade wet. In winter (you know, snow and ice) I stay warmer in breathables…. Does anyone get more than 3 seasons?….. john

I got a whole season out of a pair of breathables last year and they have three holes patched. They may get me through this coming one as well. I would presume I do a lot more hours on the water than most, wouldn’t know how to work out what that equates too, but it would be at least three seasons I’m guessing. Clark

Response:

I’m 2/3 thru year 4 on my Simms Guide boots and waders. Never applied a patch to the waders and the boots look pretty spiffy considering. My trick is that I hose down my gear every time I fish and then hang it up to dry. This may sound a little obsessive, but I do the same with my fly lines and rods/reels and they’re as nice as the day I bot them. Also, it pays to be careful when putting on your waders and boots not to track sand and gravel on your feet. These are hell on wader feet. IMHO. -bh Boulder, CO

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

I am hardly new to flyfishing but use similiar waders myself. Also have cheaper model Hodgman boots. After using rubber/canvas and then neoprene waders this style seemed quite nice and light. I think its a good deal. Breathable waders are probably more comfortable but from all the complaints I’ve seen here concerning the cheaper ones it seems that you are looking at at least 200 bucks to get a good pair. A little steep for my taste, but of course I AM cheap (admitting you have a problem etc. etc. etc.). Geo.C.

Response:

I have a pair of hodgeman breathables, I can’t recall what model off the top of my head but I paid about 150 for them three years ago. I do allot of walking through brush to get to water and keep them in my car trunk all summer long on 90+ degree days witch can’t really be good for them, but they have yet to spring a leak and are very comfortable. I also bought there cheaper canvas felt sole wading boots. It ran me 200 total but for the abuse I put them through I think it was a good investment. I had some cheap rubber waders that were beyond uncomfortable and sprung a leak after a few trips crawling through the bushes on the edge of a stream(gota be stealthy some times, people give me silly looks when they see me crawling around in waders with a fly rod). So in the long run I think it’s worth spending on one good set then buying 4 or 5 bad ones through the years. Well that’s my 2 cents, well more like 5 Tim Apple

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

I found the nylon non-breathable Wadelites. Personally, I think these would be rather warm and uncomfortable. But then I’m "big-boned" <g and perspire a lot anyway. — TL, Tim

Response:

I purchased a pair of the bantam weight hippers and a pair of the bantam weight chest waders from their outlet store and used the hip waders this summer.     I now know why breatheables are so popular but other than perspiring quite a bit, the waders worked great.   held up pretty good during a week-long trip, no leaks, etc.    I don’t know about the boots, had a pair of 11 yo hodgman boots that worked ok. so, I thought for $50, i got a pretty good deal on the waders, i don’t get to fish much, but now have all waters covered… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

It depends on how much you fish, and what type of fishing you do. If you’re going to be doing some small mountain creeks or upper lakes, then these are probably NG. I have a pair of Cabelas non-breathable cheap waders which are fine (with or without underlying insulation…depending on season) for late fall/winter/early spring (late spring for the ocean) fishing around here.  Once the weather warms up, I don’t use full waders, I either use hip boots, or wet-wade, with a couple of exceptions. When I’ve gone up to some of the bigger water (Ausable, West Branch of the Delaware) I could really have used the breathables. So, the answer is "it depends". — Rob

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

The Wadelite models are all breathable, according to their website. I’ve got a pair of the felt-sole Caster boots, and they’re decent for a starter set, although the felt is two-piece with the shank uncovered. This can sometimes cause stumbling problems if you’re not careful because the heel catches on rocks. — TL, Tim

Response:

Greetings from Northern California.  In shopping for my first pair of waders (I’m new to fly fishing) I came across the Hodgman closeout site.  The have Wadelite non-breathable waders, suspenders, and Caster Boots for the low price of $49.99.  Is this a deal or am I just pissing away Fifty Bucks?

Don’t know anything about the boots, but I bought the same waders for a quite a bit more money four years ago and they haven’t let me down yet. Sounds like a good deal to me. Wolfgang

Response:

Question:

Hello Anglers, Will be in Yosemite for a few days and was wondering about fishing the lakes off Hwy 120 going east thru Tioga pass. Is fishing not allowed? Is it OK with barbless/artificial only? Is it catch & release? Do they plant any of these lakes with stupid DFG trout? What species of fish are in these lakes? Etc., etc. Appreciate any and all info. CP Note: I realize the Pass is closed due to rockslide! I also realize I could find this info somewhere if I really looked. But I’m looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience info.

Response:

Tuolumne Meadows has a lake near it, and the fishing can be good with worms and the white wood worms.  Most of the lakes up near Tioga pass are sterile. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Anglers, Will be in Yosemite for a few days and was wondering about fishing the lakes off Hwy 120 going east thru Tioga pass. Is fishing not allowed? Is it OK with barbless/artificial only? Is it catch & release? Do they plant any of these lakes with stupid DFG trout? What species of fish are in these lakes? Etc., etc. Appreciate any and all info. CP Note: I realize the Pass is closed due to rockslide! I also realize I could find this info somewhere if I really looked. But I’m looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience info.

Response:

Just got back from a ten day trip with my 9 year old son. Stopped off at saddlebag lake, 2 miles in from the Yosemite gate at Tioga pass. We took he boat in ,its a long and skinny lake, and planned to camp for the night. My son caught his first trout, a 14 inch rainbow, using a lure. At night, we used a fly and bubble on 4 pound test. Caught more fish than we could handle. When the boat came back the next morning to take us out, we decided to spend another night .Had another good day, nobody else camped there. Saw a few other hikers in the day but had the lake to ourselves all night. Saw no bears and had a wonderful time. Great place. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Anglers, Will be in Yosemite for a few days and was wondering about fishing the lakes off Hwy 120 going east thru Tioga pass. Is fishing not allowed? Is it OK with barbless/artificial only? Is it catch & release? Do they plant any of these lakes with stupid DFG trout? What species of fish are in these lakes? Etc., etc. Appreciate any and all info. CP Note: I realize the Pass is closed due to rockslide! I also realize I could find this info somewhere if I really looked. But I’m looking for some first-hand knowledge/experience info.

Response:

Question:

Would appreciate info on traveling to and in Belize. We love Costa Rica, but would like to do something different. Thanks. G&G

Response:

Hi G&G, I know a lot about fishing the coast of Belize from our fly fishing travel service for the last 16 years, but for some of the best info on Belize if you are not into salt water fly fishing, email Margie Perez at the International Airport just out of Belize City. She has a travel agency right at the airport and can tell you everything about Belize and help arrange your trip. She use to work for one of the Belizean airlines and really knows the entire country well. Many companies like ours and the big Orvis Company use Margie for help with their groups going to Belize. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Fishing Travel & Fly Shop Sacramento, CA, USA www.kiene.com 800/4000FLY

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would appreciate info on traveling to and in Belize. We love Costa Rica, but would like to do something different. Thanks. G&G

Response:

Question:

I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off.  Here is an example: Mr. Gierach goes on and on and on about the virtues of wild game food, and how it is so good for you.  He also claims it is superior to store bought food.  Here is a quote from that book, page 121, second paragraph: " wild food is GOOD food: low in fat and cholesterol without preservatives, tasty and right there in your hand or landing net free for the taking. Putting too much distance between yourself and this obvious reality is not productive" Then, on page 122, 3rd paragraph:  " the battered fillets are deep fried in oil. Peanut oil is best, but vegetable oil will do." Hilarious!  Not only is the batter    on the fish full of preservatives, but he is basically drowning his   "low fat, cholesterol free food"   in tons of fat and grease.  Nice one Mr. Gierach!   Next time you preach to the guilty about the wonders of wild game food, make sure you try not to COMPLETELY smother out the taste AND benefits of that food by deep frying it. What a joke. I laugh at these "wild food enthusiasts"  who claim  to love the food, yet try to completely hide any of the original flavor of the fish or meat by frying or saucing the hell out of it. Many of the things Gierach does are silly.   He is so anal and "matter- of-fact"  concerning so many issues one must wonder if this guy ever gets away from his set crowd.  It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development.   His  "simplistic" life philosophy is marred and gouged by so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems quickly swallow  up whatever interesting course he was trying to follow. Another thing, is the guy is plainly an alcoholic.  Now, we all know Traver was as well, but at LEAST Traver was a good writer. There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking.  His whole philosophy  is probably the end result of that, full of matter-of- fact standoff-ishness and "simplistic" stances on life.  I have seen this type. They are a dime a dozen, claiming wild meat so superior, drinking away their days, and spouting the super simplistic lifestyle while contradicting themsleves in EVERY conceivable fashion. boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go? —-Muskie Before you buy.

Response:

gee, he’s always said nice things about you 8<) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off.  Here is an example: Mr. Gierach goes on and on and on about the virtues of wild game food, and how it is so good for you.  He also claims it is superior to store bought food.  Here is a quote from that book, page 121, second paragraph: " wild food is GOOD food: low in fat and cholesterol without preservatives, tasty and right there in your hand or landing net free for the taking. Putting too much distance between yourself and this obvious reality is not productive" Then, on page 122, 3rd paragraph:  " the battered fillets are deep fried in oil. Peanut oil is best, but vegetable oil will do." Hilarious!  Not only is the batter    on the fish full of preservatives, but he is basically drowning his   "low fat, cholesterol free food"   in tons of fat and grease.  Nice one Mr. Gierach!   Next time you preach to the guilty about the wonders of wild game food, make sure you try not to COMPLETELY smother out the taste AND benefits of that food by deep frying it. What a joke. I laugh at these "wild food enthusiasts"  who claim  to love the food, yet try to completely hide any of the original flavor of the fish or meat by frying or saucing the hell out of it. Many of the things Gierach does are silly.   He is so anal and "matter- of-fact"  concerning so many issues one must wonder if this guy ever gets away from his set crowd.  It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development.   His  "simplistic" life philosophy is marred and gouged by so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems quickly swallow  up whatever interesting course he was trying to follow. Another thing, is the guy is plainly an alcoholic.  Now, we all know Traver was as well, but at LEAST Traver was a good writer. There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking.  His whole philosophy  is probably the end result of that, full of matter-of- fact standoff-ishness and "simplistic" stances on life.  I have seen this type. They are a dime a dozen, claiming wild meat so superior, drinking away their days, and spouting the super simplistic lifestyle while contradicting themsleves in EVERY conceivable fashion. boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go? —-Muskie Before you buy.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off.  Here is an example: Mr. Gierach goes on and on and on about the virtues of wild game food, and how it is so good for you.  He also claims it is superior to store bought food.  Here is a quote from that book, page 121, second paragraph: " wild food is GOOD food: low in fat and cholesterol without preservatives, tasty and right there in your hand or landing net free for the taking. Putting too much distance between yourself and this obvious reality is not productive" Then, on page 122, 3rd paragraph:  " the battered fillets are deep fried in oil. Peanut oil is best, but vegetable oil will do." Hilarious!  Not only is the batter    on the fish full of preservatives, but he is basically drowning his   "low fat, cholesterol free food"   in tons of fat and grease.  Nice one Mr. Gierach!   Next time you preach to the guilty about the wonders of wild game food, make sure you try not to COMPLETELY smother out the taste AND benefits of that food by deep frying it. What a joke. I laugh at these "wild food enthusiasts"  who claim  to love the food, yet try to completely hide any of the original flavor of the fish or meat by frying or saucing the hell out of it. Many of the things Gierach does are silly.   He is so anal and "matter- of-fact"  concerning so many issues one must wonder if this guy ever gets away from his set crowd.  It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development.   His  "simplistic" life philosophy is marred and gouged by so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems quickly swallow  up whatever interesting course he was trying to follow. Another thing, is the guy is plainly an alcoholic.  Now, we all know Traver was as well, but at LEAST Traver was a good writer. There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking.  His whole philosophy  is probably the end result of that, full of matter- of- fact standoff-ishness and "simplistic" stances on life.  I have seen this type. They are a dime a dozen, claiming wild meat so superior, drinking away their days, and spouting the super simplistic lifestyle while contradicting themsleves in EVERY conceivable fashion. boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go? —-Muskie

 Muskie, if you deep fry something at the correct temperature the out side is seared shut almost instantly. The heat of the oil then cooks the food. If then drained on paper towels you’re not really eating food "drowned" in oil. Remember the old Wesson oil commercial with the loaf of bread ? Gierach has admitted he’s an alcoholic in print, stating in a recent book that he had to quit drinking several years ago. I don’t see the contradictions you speak of represented in his writings in such massive amounts. Sure, a few here and there but the guy’s human. I enjoy him for the most part. It sounds almost like he’s done something personal to you. Bob Before you buy.

Response:

…a "recovered" alcoholic can be MUCH more annoying.

I’ll drink to THAT!

Response:

Peanut oil is great stuff!! Use it once and you will never go back to canola or corn oil. Gierach is a great writer. He’s probably a great cook too.

Response:

The amount of contradictions makes me laugh my ass off. Many of the things Gierach does are silly. It’s clear he is lacking in any kind of cultural development. …so many incosistencies a beginner fly caster could put loops through them. Occasionaly Gierach starts heading in a good direction, but his aformentioned problems…

You sure do a lot of talking about his "many" problems, but you only mentioned 2.  And of those, only one was pertinent to your "book review".  (Alcoholism is not the point – how he writes is the point.) So.. you’ll either have to provide more or be considered an exaggerater. Regards, Jeff

Response:

LOL!  that was a good one It’s easy enough to see if you look closely: "PEA…NUT oil" observer unfamiliar with the phrase dipping the old fillet into the oil).

Regards, Jeff

Response:

Wolfgang Yeah, I got the same sense of his post. Like he is calling out for Gierach, expressing a deep groinial need to dis what he really desires. Its kind of like when Roadrunner is off the set eating a donut, and you see that empty stare of the truely lonely, beyond the kleig lights, past the makeup, you just know that a hug from the Key Grip, or maybe the Folli guy is what the ole runmiester could use. Dave Points of lite man, points of lite.

Response:

 Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon.

Mmmmmm…Cow-steaks and bacon….

Response:

 Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon. Mmmmmm…Cow-steaks and bacon….

And donuts… — Charlie…

Response:

 \  Muskie, if you deep fry something at the correct temperature the out side is seared shut almost instantly. The heat of the oil then cooks the food. If then drained on paper towels you’re not really eating food "drowned" in oil. Remember the old Wesson oil commercial with the loaf of bread ?\   Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying.

really?!?!?, frying means more fat? yep, all fish should be baked, steamed, or boiled… with no seasonings… if you don’t like it like that then you shouldn’t eat fish <G. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon.

whoever invented bacon should get a nobel prize for good taste. chris

Response:

 Lol.  Let’s find the hidden meaning in Wolfgangs post: Don’t let it get to you Joe.  Poor Muskie’s post is actually a cry for help. OBVIOUSLY he’s got the hots for Gierach and he doesn’t quite know how to deal with his feelings. It’s easy enough to see if you look closely:

  (This one might escape the casual observer unfamiliar with the phrase dipping the old fillet into the

oil).   It’s kind of sad really, but there’s not much we can do about it. I’m afraid we’ll just have to let old Muskie work through this on his own.

" We’ll…just…have…to…gang….dipping….it" "let….this….easy….old….fillet..get..to..you" " Im ….afraid…..got…hots…Geirach" " sad…feelings…obviously..work….." -Muskie Before you buy.

Response:

That was a pretty lame comeback,Muskie.Wolfie got you pretty good and I guess you’ll just have to take it like a man.(oops don’t quote me on that.)Serves you right for disrespecting Gierach.People don’t buy his books just to get information about cooking game or for flyfishing tips,( he is continuously disavowing his own expertise),he’s just a good writer period.Their aren’t many out there.I can barely get halfway through most of the flyfishing magazine articles I read because they are so full of cliches.

Response:

You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. really?!?!?, frying means more fat?

Well, what do you think it’s deep IN? Regards, Jeff

Response:

"let….this….easy….old….fillet..get..to..you"

Wow, so really…. Wolfgang and Muskie have a thing going?  I’m getting confused now… Maybe Wolfgang is Muskie’s father… "Search your feelings Muskie, you know it to be true."   "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" Regards, Jeff

Response:

<snip Que?

Response:

\ That was a pretty lame comeback,Muskie.Wolfie got you pretty good and I guess you’ll just have to take it like a man.\

Hey I laughed at his post. \.Their aren’t many out there.I can barely get halfway through most of the flyfishing magazine articles I read because they are so full of cliches.\

  Chock full. —-Muskie Before you buy.

Response:

 \  Muskie, if you deep fry something at the correct temperature the out side is seared shut almost instantly. The heat of the oil then cooks the food. If then drained on paper towels you’re not really eating food "drowned" in oil. Remember the old Wesson oil commercial with the loaf of bread ?\

  Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon.   \ Gierach has admitted he’s an alcoholic in print, stating in a recent book that he had to quit drinking several years ago.\

No kidding. I didn’t know that. His alcoholism was just so apparent to me  from reading EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES. \ I don’t see the contradictions you speak of represented in his writings in such massive amounts. Sure, a few here and there but the guy’s human. I enjoy him for the most part. It sounds almost like he’s done something personal to you.\

He has. He wasted my time. —Muskie Before you buy.

Response:

[snipped] OT: There was one time when this sort of literary license bugged the shit out of me.   My wife insisted on seeing the movie "Message in a Bottle" (criminy, what a chick movie).   It was supposed to be set in North Carolina, but was so obviously filmed in New England that I cringed everytime there was a waterfront scene.   It ruined any chance I had (damned little) of enjoying the movie.

Hmm? I thought it was supposed to be set in Massachusetts, but they filmed it in Maine to get away from the Boston Teamsters… While I’m here – I disagree with Muskie’s "There’s nothing more annoying than an alcoholic who is still drinking." Au contraire: a "recovered" alcoholic can be MUCH more annoying. /daytripper (neither current nor recovered, thanks ;^)

Response:

 Nope.     Alot of the oil and fat stick around.  Thats what makes the cooki-crumbly apsect of the batter.    You are still getting more fat and cholesterol by  deep frying. This is no better than cow-steaks or bacon. Mmmmmm…Cow-steaks and bacon…. And donuts… —

Mmmmmm donuts; and beer!  Sweet beautiful beer!

Response:

Oh the hell with it.   I was going to write a thoughtful response; but f*ck that cros-posted troll bullshit.

Don’t let it get to you Joe.  Poor Muskie’s post is actually a cry for help. OBVIOUSLY he’s got the hots for Gierach and he doesn’t quite know how to deal with his feelings. It’s easy enough to see if you look closely: "PEA…NUT oil" observer unfamiliar with the phrase dipping the old fillet into the oil). It’s kind of sad really, but there’s not much we can do about it.  I’m afraid we’ll just have to let old Muskie work through this on his own.

Response:

I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. (snip) boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go?

        having read your effort at literary criticism, i am convinced that they did not go into the gierach dissing business.         wayno

Response:

I just finished reading,      EVEN BROOK TROUT GET THE BLUES  by John Gierach.  I have to say,  this was one trite, anal, "matter-of-fact-" piece of literature. (snip) boo-hoo  Mr. Gierach.   Where did the Robert Traver’s go?    having read your effort at literary criticism, i am convinced that they did not go into the gierach dissing business.

Ask not for whom the troll posts… — Charlie…

Response:

Ask not for whom the troll posts… — Charlie…

That’s baaad, ten lashes with a sinktip for that one. Peter

Response:

Oh the hell with it.   I was going to write a thoughtful response; but f*ck that cros-posted troll bullshit. I read Gierach.   I enjoy his stories.   I don’t give a rat’s ass how he cooks his food.   Since when are fishing tales supposed to be a paragon (zenith?) of accuracy?   (Damn. Where’s my Webster’s?)   Christ, what’d he do to you, boink your grandma? OT: There was one time when this sort of literary license bugged the shit out of me.   My wife insisted on seeing the movie "Message in a Bottle" (criminy, what a chick movie).   It was supposed to be set in North Carolina, but was so obviously filmed in New England that I cringed everytime there was a waterfront scene.   It ruined any chance I had (damned little) of enjoying the movie. Joe F. Joe F.

Response:

Question:

Ok, so they are overpriced.  But they had a couple of things which I’ve been unable to find anywhere else.  I put in an order last week and the site said I’d receive an email reply confirming, but as yet I haven’t received one.  Has anyone else ordered off the waysidegardens.com website and what has been your experience? Thanks Wayne **I’m not out to pasture, just gone to seed.**

Response:

Wayside is owned by Park Seed co I have dealt with Park Seed since the 70’s and have been treated well. Tom There is an extra Bee in the Email address after the AOL.com

Response:

I ordered a dogwood tree from them and I got an email the following day.  I got the tree last Thursday.  You might want to email them, letting them know you never got an email. Lisa http://home.earthlink.net/~scrapnstamp/ <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~scrapnstamp/"Lisa Lee’s  Webpages</a

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, so they are overpriced.  But they had a couple of things which I’ve been unable to find anywhere else.  I put in an order last week and the site said I’d receive an email reply confirming, but as yet I haven’t received one. Has anyone else ordered off the waysidegardens.com website and what has been your experience? Thanks Wayne **I’m not out to pasture, just gone to seed.**

Response:

I put in an order last week and the site said I’d receive an email reply confirming, but as yet I haven’t received

one. I suggest you give them a call since you didn’t receive your e-mail confirmation. Sometimes it’s hard to beat talking to a real live person! http://www.waysidegardens.com/contact.htm Telephone 800-845-1124 Peace! Dan D.  Louisville KY Before you buy.

Response:

I sent in a large order for English roses to Wayside in January – I got no confirmation so I e-mailed them. I did get a pleasant reply with approximate shipping date. I found Wayside English rose prices to be quite reasonable. I have ordered roses from four different companies. So far Miller’s roses [9] of them including Heritage arrive well packed with great roots and many thick canes. Their prices were very good though selection not large. I’ll report back on other 40 or so roses when they arrive and again in the fall to let the group know which roses did the best and which companies were the best in terms of roses and service. After some gardeners recently reported that their Wayside roses arrived in bad shape and had to be returned, I e-mailed the company again to alert them to my order and the fact that I am expecting a decent shipment since I ordered early. I will be a very unhappy [and vocal] camper if my large Wayside order is not up to snuff. Randy —

Response:

Ok, so they are overpriced.  But they had a couple of things which I’ve been unable to find anywhere else.  I put in an order last week and the site said I’d receive an email reply confirming, but as yet I haven’t received one.  Has anyone else ordered off the waysidegardens.com website and what has been your experience?

Last year and this year; no problems at all . . . I got my confirmation e-mail in less than an hour, though, so I would give them a ring and see if the order went through. Chris Owens

Response:

Figures.  After posting this, I got the email confirmation.  Only one item was unavailable, which was a fragrant hosta that I would have liked, but don’t mind keeping the twenty-five bucks.  I’ll let y’all know how the order comes and if I’ll order more.  Wayside has always had a good reputation, but on the expensive side. Thanks for the replies. Wayne **I’m not out to pasture, just gone to seed.**

Response:

I just received my order of three Clematis plants from Park and the instructions they included said something about Wayside gardens. Is Park a subsidiary/parent of Wayside or do they get their plants from Wayside? Inquiring minds want to know…… Jane Bergen Wayside Gardens and Park Seeds are indeed under the same ownership,

with Wayside specializing in plants and Park in seeds and a few plants. Don Martinson

Response:

Prices to high! Quality too low. That’s my experience. But they have great pictures to help you through the winter! Glenn

I agree with the above. Wayside is a tantalizing source book, and they boast a broad variety of plant materials.  Still, their offerings within a particular species are quite modest when compared to specialist nurseries, which also are often considerably less expensive and can offer you more knowledgeable advice if you phone them. One thing Wayside _does_ do, apparently, is carry huge stocks of each offering: I have never found them to be out of anything I have ordered from them. Boyd Zone 7 (Central VA)

Response:

each offering: I have never found them to be out of anything I have ordered from them.

Oh, I have; actually probably just slightly more often then other places I order from (but then I generally just order from them things I can’t find from other places, which may be the type of things that are likely to be in short supply).      -Sue Sanders

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My parents bought my husband and me a ‘Betty Prior’ rose from Wayside

for Christmas.  It arrived at the appropriate planting time.  It was in very good condition (they had pre-pruned it).  They enclosed very detailed planting instructions.  And, last but not least, it’s growing!  I just planted it a couple weeks ago and it has leaves on it already.  I will probably order from them myself sometime… Just my $.02. Erica P.S. Price was comparable to local nursery. Prices to high! Quality too low. That’s my experience. But they have great – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – pictures to help you through the winter! Glenn I agree with the above. Wayside is a tantalizing source book, and they boast a broad variety of plant materials.  Still, their offerings within a particular species are quite modest when compared to specialist nurseries, which also are often considerably less expensive and can offer you more knowledgeable advice if you phone them. One thing Wayside _does_ do, apparently, is carry huge stocks of each offering: I have never found them to be out of anything I have ordered from them. Boyd Zone 7 (Central VA)

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Prices to high! Quality too low. That’s my experience. But they have great pictures to help you through the winter! Glenn

I just received my order of three Clematis plants from Park and the instructions they included said something about Wayside gardens. Is Park a subsidiary/parent of Wayside or do they get their plants from Wayside? Inquiring minds want to know…… Jane Bergen

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Prices to high! Quality too low. That’s my experience. But they have great pictures to help you through the winter! Glenn I’ve been ordering from Wayside for over 10 years now and have almost

always found their quality to be excellent.  Any problems that I encountered (and there were a few), they corrected and gave a refund/replacement with no questions asked.  Yes, they are pricey, but you generally get what you pay for. "Good plants are not cheap and cheap plants are not good."  However, it does pay to shop around.  Wayside is an intermediate dealer for many of the plants that they offer and if you shop at some of the smaller, more specialized plantsmen, you can save quite a bit. Example, a friend wanted a weeping pussywillow, Salix capreolata cv. pendula.  Wayside wanted over $100 for it, but I found it offered by Arborvillage Farm Nursery (Holt, MO) for $35.00. Don Martinson                           "Existing order thrives upon ignorance and lies.   Objective truth and individual reason are feared above all."

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Prices to high! Quality too low. That’s my experience. But they have great pictures to help you through the winter!

I agree.  I buy from them what I can’t get from another source.  My experience has been that their woody plants are good quality, and the herbaceous stuff is chancier.  But they do honor the guarantee when things go wrong.  Of course, so do a lot of much cheaper places.  But the pictures–I’ll bet their catalog has gotten more people entrapped into gardening than any other single thing.                                                                                                                                                        -Sue Sanders

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Prices to high! Quality too low. That’s my experience. But they have great pictures to help you through the winter! Glenn

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Does Wayside Gardens have a web site? or e-mail address? Or a fax number? Thanks! Tim

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Does Wayside Gardens have a … fax number?

800-817-1124 — Lloyd R. Fortney ….. http://www.phy.duke.edu/~fortney physics, research, teaching, photography, flower gardening, travel, and fly fishing

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Last time I checked, I couldn’t find a URL or email address for Wayside. White Flower Farm is on the web — I like them just as well as Wayside.  I have bought from both many times in the past and am happy with stock and service. You can find WWF at: http://www.whiteflowerfarm.com/ — http://home.att.net/~theherndons

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Question:

Have fished it many times–was a deadbeat unemployed fella last year and I actually fished it 90 days. Don’t know where you live but before you go make sure you have the water release schedule halfway figured out so as not to ruin your day. Call ahead to the Ozark Angler in Heber Springs. Tell Jeff Hawthorne to tie you up some Red Diablos–the deadliest LRR fly.

Hi How about sharing the fly pattern receipe for the Red Diablo with us.   Thanks. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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- Hello All. I am looking for some info about the Little Red River Where to stay best spots to fish pretty much anything those you who have been there might be able to fill me in on. Thanks in advance Tight Lines Scott

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Have fished it many times–was a deadbeat unemployed fella last year and I actually fished it 90 days. Don’t know where you live but before you go make sure you have the water release schedule halfway figured out so as not to ruin your day. Call ahead to the Ozark Angler in Heber Springs. Tell Jeff Hawthorne to tie you up some Red Diablos–the deadliest LRR fly.

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Question:

writes: I landed a 3 pound carp (now I surely will go on the list ’sh_t list) on an 8x tippet today at lunch.

   Not hardly, at least for me.  I fished (bait) for carp as a kid, and know them to be wary and strong.  Carp are vegetarians, not scavengers; they don’t like polluted water, but can survive in conditions that would kill other fish; they are exotics and often a nuisance, but they did not ask to be brought here.  My hat is off to anyone who can bring one to a fly.  What pattern did you use?  Broccoli comparadun? Roger (ffer and goldfish keeper)

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Call Cabella’s (800-237-4444).  They are a huge mail order company in the Midwest and they have some very good deals that they will guarantee 100%. Let me know what you do and good luck. Jeff

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: I just won $100 in the instant lottery and I was able to talk my lovely : spouse into letting me buy a new fly rod (the money being a windfall and all)! Reddington Redspot, 5-6 wt, $100.  I’ve got a few rods, but I’ve used this new one more than any other this year.  It’s a fast rod, and that suits me fine.  Your style might be different.  Whether or not it works for you, I am really impressed by the value of the redspot. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I just won $100 in the instant lottery and I was able to talk my lovely spouse into letting me buy a new fly rod (the money being a windfall and all)!<Snip..

I bought a Martin flyrod recently, and I think it is an american brand, so you should be able to find it somewhere. It is a 8′6", 5-6 wt, handles well and casts like a dream. The price was about 110 USD (in Holland), which is definitely value for money. They also have a 9 foot travelrod (4-piece) in the same weightclass. Good luck and tight lines, Herman —  Herman Nijland        |   Daytime   system manager                        |   Lifetime  flyfisher STOAS  APH             | Vlijmenseweg 50a       |   Tel.  : +31 (0)73-6214745 5223 GW Den Bosch      |   Fax   : +31 (0)73-6220235 Netherlands            |   E-mail: Check out our WWW site! URL:  http://www.stoas.nl Or my own page at:            http://www.stoas.nl/user/hny

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direct or I may miss it. Back in the March ‘96 issue of FlyRod &Reel magazine, there was an article on "affordable rods".  They gave a very good review to a "HT" (HiTech) manufactured rod in a couple of variations.  I ordered a 7′6" Executive Premier in a 5 wt. with the cork handle (comes in EVA also) from a mail order dealer up in the Milwaukee area for less than $40.  Picked up a little Shakespear reel at the local sports super store (SportMart) for around $15, some Scientific Anglers Concept WF5F line for $13 and shazam! A complete setup for less than $70 including tax and shipping. I’ve used it 4 times now and it ain’t bad.  In fact, it’s downright a pleasure to fish with.  I know that in confessing this transgression against the very precept of spending small (maybe not so small) fortunes for a FF outfit that I am setting myself up to be banished from this list for the rest of my life. It works quite well also, I landed a 3 pound carp (now I surely will go on the list ’sh_t list) on an 8x tippet today at lunch.   I’m not saying that it will replace my Orvis bamboo but then it’s many hundreds less in cost too.  Any questions, please address direct (my wife occassionally reads the list and I don’t want her knowing that gear can cost this little). Hope this helps…Jerry

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just won $100 in the instant lottery and I was able to talk my lovely spouse into letting me buy a new fly rod (the money being a windfall and all)! Now herw is my quandry.  I have been using a cheep, heavy, stiff 7 wt rod for about 3 yrs now. I fish mosty bass and bluegill (no elephant gun comments please ;-p).  I would like to buy a 5wt rod and I need to keep the price as close to my lucky $100 as possible.  As I said, I am used to a heavy, stiff clunker of a rod, so weight is of little consideration. I suppose as I get older I will regret that opinion. I have heard good and bad about St. Croix. I also know that there are used rods out there for bargin prices. Any advice would be helpfull as I don’t want to blow this decision and end up with a $100 dud.

     You might look in the LL Bean Flyfishing Catalog.  They have a good beginner’s outfit they use in their school, with reel, backing, the works, for $99.00.  I did not buy it, because they said the action was a bit faster than is good for a true beginner learning on their own.  However, since you already have experience, that should not be any problem.  They sell them in a range of rod weights, so you should be able to get what you are looking for.  I DID buy their  next level of rod, and I have been having a ball!  The casting action is good for my skill level, and I did not go into deep debt for my new-found passion.  Hope this helps you.                                 Dan Johnson

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I just won $100 in the instant lottery and I was able to talk my lovely spouse into letting me buy a new fly rod (the money being a windfall and all)! Now herw is my quandry.  I have been using a cheep, heavy, stiff 7 wt rod for about 3 yrs now. I fish mosty bass and bluegill (no elephant gun comments please ;-p).  I would like to buy a 5wt rod and I need to keep the price as close to my lucky $100 as possible.  As I said, I am used to a heavy, stiff clunker of a rod, so weight is of little consideration. I suppose as I get older I will regret that opinion. I have heard good and bad about St. Croix. I also know that there are used rods out there for bargin prices. Any advice would be helpfull as I don’t want to blow this decision and end up with a $100 dud. P.S. if you are in the Columbus area and are trying to sell your wonderfull, whippy, high-end, casts like a dream, bought it for $300 and now I just don’t get out like I would like to, rod — I would be delighted to give it a new home. Email me. — | P. Erik Jaros                 | "I was a fine idea at the time. | |                               |          Elvis Costello         |

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Question:

One method that works fairly well is to tie the end of the leader (not tippet) to the center of the piece of yarn using an improved cinch knot.  Then tie the tippet to the leader just above the yarn also using an improved cinch knot.  The  obvious disadvantage to this method is that it’s not very easy to change depths. John Johnson Atlanta, GA

A second disadvantage is that it requires two knots instead of one. Next time I think that I’ll try the simple overhand knot that others have suggested. John Johnson Atlanta, GA

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I am trying to use yarn instead of foam, BioStrike, etc. What is the best knot and method to use to attach the yarn to the leader?

Hi Jay, The question is, do you want effectiveness and are you willing to work for it, or do you want convenience and are willing to settle for not as effective? If you want the most sensitive and best casting system, use a fairly stout leader 2X or 3X  (~6 to 7 1/2 ft. in length) and tie your yarn on to the end with an *improved* clinch knot (the regular clinch knot will slip). Then attach your tippet (depth of the water or slightly longer) to the leader with an improved clinch knot behind the indicator and slide it up against the indicator.  Test the connection (don’t bounce your knots!).   Attach split shot ~6" away from your fly (no closer than 4" and no farther away than 8")   If you keep at least 2 "X" numbers difference between the leader and the tippet size, the break will be at the fly and not at the yarn.  You have to keep adjusting the  length of the tippet as the water depth changes, and that’s a pain.  But, it is deadly.  The stout leader makes casting the indicator much easier and the 90 degree tippet gives you great control over placement.  This is often called "the hinged nymphing system" and was developed by the gentleman I teach fishing schools with, Dean Schubert, and his ex-roomate Dave Hickson.   If you don’t want to go through all these machinations you can tie your yarn on with a clove hitch which will allow you to loosen up the knot and slide the yarn up  or down, and it won’t score the line or weaken it.  It also won’t cast as well and you won’t get the 90 degree hinge that you get with the other system so it won’t be as sensitive and your fly may actually be quite a ways from your indicator (instead of within a 2 ft. circle), but it is more convenient and in fast water it works OK.                                        Good Fishing!                                                Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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I am trying to use yarn instead of foam, BioStrike, etc. What is the best knot and method to use to attach the yarn to the leader? — Jay Thomas

I don’t know what type of water you are fishing but in New Zealand’s North Island, on the larger rivers eg. the Tongariro or Rangitikei, I use a 1" piece of Glo-bug yarn. Soak the yarn in a dry fly floatant and allow to dry. My leader is joined to the fly line by a pair of interlocking loops and the Glo-bug yarn indicator is placed in between the loops before they are pulled up tight. Lime green is easy to see at the change of light and hot pink when the sun is on the water. This indicator does not affect casting but there is some distance between it and the fly. For these waters this distance is not a problem. Jim Learmonth

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While yarn works great for indicating strikes, I find it interferes tremendously with casting. — -Wayne Trzyna

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While yarn works great for indicating strikes, I find it interferes tremendously with casting.

Hi Wayne, Your right if your talking about those golf ball and larger sized sized chunks of yarn that people toss around.  However, if you get the right yarn, you don’t need huge pieces of it and I find it easier to cast than any other indicator I’ve found (so far).  The yarn you want to find comes in your choice of colors and can often be found at macrame shops.  It is a braided polypropylene yarn.  One of the brand names out there is Bonnie Braid, I’m sure there are plenty more. However, all polypropylene yarns are not created equal and different skeins of the same brand and the same color can perform differently.  The type that works best is coarse and shiny.  Not shiny and soft, not coarse and dull, but coarse and shiny.  Get it in a color you like as waterproof markers won’t penetrate the fibers and will wash off quickly.  It usually comes in 50 or 100 yard skeins depending on the thickness of the braid.  I prefer the 100 yard skeins because the braid is smaller and easier to seperate.  Use about 4 strands of the braid, tie it on and comb out the fibers.  Cut to the desired size (dime to quarter size depending on amount of weight used), and treat with paste floatant.   I use the Orvis Hy-flote paste floatant because it liquifies when I rub it between my fingers. Don’t use too thick a paste or it won’t work well.  I’ll then stroke it on the fibers and comb it out again.  If you did it right this should look like a very small open flower floating on the water.  If the flower is tipping forward – your fly is dragging behind it, if it is tilting backwards – it is in front of the indicator.  If it floats straight up, you are getting a very good drift.  If you did it wrong it will look like a dense golf ball or bigger.  Dense doesn’t cast or float as well as the "open flower".  Goldilocks strikes again, not to thick, not too thin, just right!                             Good Fishing,                                   Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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dont

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dont

nonsense. make a standard overhand loop with the yarn inside, breaking strength is 100% of the tippet. The advantage of yarn (you can also use small pieces of etafoam, a few CDC feathers etc.) is that you can adjust the size of the strike indicator and the depth of fishing (in shallower water just move the indicator closer to the fly). An easier strike indicator is Orvis Strike Putty, a resin you can mold to any shape and you can us as much as you really need (from very small for midge fishing in shallow water to really big to fish a deep run with a stonefly, highly visible colors and even night glowing!).       If this was your question…                                       Thomas

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I am trying to use yarn instead of foam, BioStrike, etc. What is the best knot and method to use to attach the yarn to the leader? — Jay Thomas

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Tie a slip-knot in the leader. Insert yarn and pull tight. Trim yarn to size and apply a small amount of floatant. This has worked for me for years. It is also easy to adjust the fly depth and has minimal effect on the leader stregth. Good luck. Jack

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Path: news.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!realti me.net !news.mindspring.com!jpthomas.mindspring.com!user Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: jpthomas.mindspring.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.8 I am trying to use yarn instead of foam, BioStrike, etc. What is the best knot and method to use to attach the yarn to the leader? — Jay Thomas

Try a knittingneedle knot.

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I am trying to use yarn instead of foam, BioStrike, etc. What is the best knot and method to use to attach the yarn to the leader? — Jay Thomas

Jay, Around here we tie an overhand knot at the area where you want the indicator to be, but leave it loose. Then put the yarn in the knot an tighten it. This way it is easy to backl the knot off and roll it to a different spot depending on how deep the water is. It won’t be a weak link since it is way up the leader where it is thick anyway. Martin Allen

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Tie a slip-knot in the leader. Insert yarn and pull tight. Trim yarn to size and apply a small amount of floatant. This has worked for me for years. It is also easy to adjust the fly depth and has minimal effect on the leader stregth. Good luck. Jack

   Our knot testing machine (which, as Lefty says, "has no bias") shows that yarn slip knotted to leader will reduce the leader strength by up to 50%. A much better way is to tie a simple overhand knot in the leader and put in a piece of yarn before cinching up.    Without the yarn this would result in a "wind knot" which is not very strong (reduces leader strength by about 15% . . . it’s not nearly as bad as many have been led to believe).     Our strain gauge device measures accurately down to 1/100 of a pound and it shows zero reduction of strength in an overhand knot cinched around a piece of yarn. Your leader will always break at the yarn because it creates a focus of energy; however, there is no reduction in the strength of the leader.    -Ralph —

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I am trying to use yarn instead of foam, BioStrike, etc. What is the best knot and method to use to attach the yarn to the leader?

One method that works fairly well is to tie the end of the leader (not tippet) to the center of the piece of yarn using an improved cinch knot.  Then tie the tippet to the leader just above the yarn also using an improved cinch knot.  The  obvious disadvantage to this method is that it’s not very easy to change depths. John Johnson Atlanta, GA

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I am trying to use yarn instead of foam, BioStrike, etc. What is the best knot and method to use to attach the yarn to the leader?

I learned a nice method from a guide on the San Juan River in New Mexico. You form a loop up in the fat part of the leader, then reach through the loop and pull another loop of the same leader through it. You put the yarn halfway through this second loop and pull on the leader to tighten it up. If you need to change depths, you just push the leader to open the loop, get your yarn out and do it again somewhere else. I hope I have explained this so you can understand it. It’s a pretty simple method, though it will leave a bend in the leader if you leave the yarn in too long. Doesn’t seem to affect the strength of the leader though. — | Michael P. Thompson – Liberty Communications | |           * Spreading the Word *             |

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[snip] Your leader will always break at the yarn because it creates a focus of energy; however, there is no reduction in the strength of the leader.   -Ralph

I didn’t realize from your previous posts that you were a "New Age" kind of guy Ralph.  That focus of energy must be some variation of the pyramid effect.  :-) BTW, I love to read your magazine articles! See ya, John Johnson Atlanta, GA

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Question:

I realize that the best place to practice casting is in the water, but will casting in the yard damage my line?  I am new to fly fishing, so I don’t have any old lines to use, and I’d rather not trash an expensive line.  Should I buy an inexpensive line to practice with and save the $40 line for the water?   Thanks,

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I realize that the best place to practice casting is in the water, but will casting in the yard damage my line?  I am new to fly fishing, so I don’t have any old lines to use, and I’d rather not trash an expensive line.  Should I buy an inexpensive line to practice with and save the $40 line for the water?

If you have a dog, just keep it clear of lawn, uh, ‘browns’. TimW

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says… I realize that the best place to practice casting is in the water, but will casting in the yard damage my line?  I am new to fly fishing, so I don’t have any old lines to use, and I’d rather not trash an expensive line.  Should I buy an inexpensive line to practice with and save the $40 line for the water?   Thanks,

Hi Mark, If it’s just grass you are casting on, don’t be concerned. Pavement, cement, mud, sand etc. will be very tough on your line. On grass or water, clean your line often and hang it in large loops when not in use for extended periods ( month or more) Cheap lines will slow your learning progress. Buy a good line and look after it and the lawn will be a great place to practice. Don’t forget to add leader before you begin to practice and tie a small piece of yarn on the end of the leader. Flys get caught in the grass and you won’t need one to learn. We conduct classes on grass, using our own rods and lines, with over a hundred and fifty students per year. We use Mastery lines, clean them often, and hang them in the off season. Two to three years with very, very little sign of wear. Clean with soap and water and 3M line cleaner. Fly fishing is catching … learn to let go Dennis Grant Atlantic Fly Fishing School

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Should I buy an inexpensive line to practice with and save the $40 line for the water?  

Hello Mark, It sshould be o.k. to practice with your line on grass as long as you clean it.  Never cast your line on concrete.  I work for a shop and we provide lines to cast with on concrete and they last very short.  Just use a good cleaning product or just dish soap.  Then use Glide or something like it to put a good coating on your line.  Your line should be fine. Good Casting, Paul Johnson,

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: says… : : I realize that the best place to practice casting is in the water, but : will casting in the yard damage my line?  I am new to fly fishing, so I : don’t have any old lines to use, and I’d rather not trash an expensive : line.  Should I buy an inexpensive line to practice with and save the $40 : line for the water?   : If it’s just grass you are casting on, don’t be concerned… : Don’t forget to add leader before you begin to practice and tie a small : piece of yarn on the end of the leader… This is how I learned to cast (from Dave Engerbretson at a University Enrichment short course).  Two things I’d add:         1. be sure to clean and dress your line before you go fishing.         Grass will get your line dirty, which will make it hard to shoot         line.  But of course, you clean your line after every outing         anyway…right?         2. Have a couple snappy comebacks for the neighbors who wonder         what you’re fishing for.  Some possibilities: "I thought I saw a lawn         carp" or "with so many worms, I thought for sure there’d be         fish". — Laboratory for Applied Logic    Dept. of Computer Science University of Idaho             www: http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~foster —–BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—– Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzDtvLEAAAEEAKAC21G2Be0K0DMgjLpxrwLmsYfCz8rWcfgyABjr3Ryfk1dO nV7fFFpUF3xohR7die+/B2V9oqRQzTLeSF2ECKlsTY/yUyw2kn+P2ju1umh4Fwzd cVTvc+H69q1+Ft3kmw/PE0Pan+g0PUGGJ43stw3q4OgBHdixbRd/f9giJFDxAAUR tCZKYW1lcyBBLiBGb3N0ZXIgPGZvc3RlckBjcy51aWRhaG8uZWR1PokAlQMFEDD8 ReEXf3/YIiRQ8QEBFrAD/2AFuRWcD/3MENC3qJMC/Or1qxknjkK7Uv+TDf2LHPOY GHBbG9PyWuXQ8of0Dd+JYwf/tzlO9Yk1s1zTdikfriak21FW0bCokxDIhA3myppZ IZDWVA9CyvDYHuP5Ii1NkBvocab813JzDLZA+0iVN5sebGb9zSXR4Za47hlriHeP =RDHK —–END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK—–

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