Question:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

Response:

Hey, Fishreeler, I’ll see you at Penns.  I will show you a lovely stretch of water called Frank’s Pool, found by your friend Frank Reid.  Of course, Peter Charles and I cleaned out the pool before Frank could land a fish, but that’s another story.  And, much to the disgust of other roffians, I’ll make a nympher out of you.  <g Dave

Response:

     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World.

Believe it or not, that is sometimes the exact perspective needed.   Your early experiences and lessons learned can be valuable advice to another just staring out.   Not everybody here is an expert, nor is everyone who comes through the door.   Even the jaded and experienced will take joy in your progress.   Post what you know, what you learn, what you experience.   It’s as valuable and welcome here as any of the esoteric baloney the experts post. Welcome to the nuthouse. Joe F.

Response:

fishreeler welcome! Look, as long as you avoid words like "meniscus" and the "the Kreh Effect" [  : - ) ], and try not to blatantly sell things [  ]. you can pretty much say what you want without fear of too much in the way of reprisals.  Most of the group is interested in discussions relating to our mutual interest in fly fishing.  I personally have never been flamed for asking a dumb question, and I think that if you ask  begineer type questions that are interpreted as sincere you’ll be fine.  Periodically, someone will take umbrage to a question if they believe there is some ulterior motive to the question- like a potential spammer trying to get a sales op for instance. I butted in to my first clave at Ennis 2 years ago after being a lurker for a only a few months.  Met some great people with a wide variety of fishing, and other, experiences.  I believe this is the real fun of this group.  I can wander down to the local fly shop and BS about fishing the Blackfoot whenever I want- but to hear about North Carolina, or the San Juan, or Wisconsin is pretty interesting- to me.  The claves are fun too because you can put a name to a face and a real person and learn something from some damn fine fisherman – sometimes even fishing related stuff. As with all groups, there is a tremendous variety of knowledge and experience present.  Take advantage, have fun, and be responsible about what you post. john

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Ken,      I would hope that all who read my post understood that I took no sides in the matter. I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy. Being that everyone has been in the realm of ROFF for a while, I believed that maybe, just maybe, my opinion would breath a breathe of fresh air into the room.      There are no sides for me, you enjoy fishing, I enjoy fishing, everyone in here enjoys fishing. I say that that puts me on the winning team overall. I may not be as eloquant in writing in my posts as others, but nonetheless, the point is given.      Thanks for the reply, and I cant wait to go to Penns! Fishreeler——<< "Danno Mattice"

Response:

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Hmmmm!!! Frank never told me about that. But I could always find a soft tree out by the creek and fall asleep by the sounds of the water instead of listening to the rustling of a tutu. Fishreeler came about when I was trying to find a screen name on AOL. That is when I was with AOL. So, I have adopted the name as my own now. Seems that all you other fisherman and women took all the good names at the time. However, I kinda like the name and it grows on me. Not to say that I am an expert, but have been doing it for a while. Thanks to all for the warm reception. Fishreeler—–<< Danno Mattice "Cant think of anything quippy to put at the end of my post yet, I havent seasoned enough in ROFF yet"

Response:

… I was just stating my personal opinion on the whole matter as the new guy.

As a new guy, your opinions on "the whole matter" are not likely to be well received, inasmuch as they’re not only negative but uninformed. Your opinions and observations about our shared avocation, on the other hand, are most welcome and may very well be a breath of fresh air for some. See you on the stream. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.

And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

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<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. Fishreeler?  Strange name.

made me think of trolling…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering. First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else. And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info. And another note to new readers.  You do NOT have to read rdean’s posts in their entirety.  In fact, none of us have.

Something I am not only grateful for, but that I count on and plan for, I assure you.  That way, I can say any damned thing I wish – Jeff C. secretly yearns for TBone’s rather unusual sex life, for example – and by the time those who read only various parts attempt to get their stories straight, no one can remember what it was that I claimed or denied to have said… TC, R …that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…unless you can prove otherwise, in which case, google made a mistake…

Response:

To George’s Post,     As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.

First and foremost, welcome to ROFF, and, IMO, post away, be it fishing or anything else.   And to (mainly) any lurkers reading, as here is as good a place as any, here’s some info.  Where I have addressed "you," it’s more addressing the point raised than _you_ specifically, but as your post inspired it, take what you will from it, too.  It’s all IMO, YMMV. As to Ginkles, read his posts and responses to and regarding Frank Church and the fly swap, if none other, to see just a portion of what he is all about.  I rarely advise others against anyone, preferring to allow them to discover and choose for themselves, but regarding Ginkles, I’ll make an exception.  However, if you do choose to befriend him, I’d not hold that decision against you. That said, a few things, all IMO and, of course, YMMV:  First, you seem to be lumping every slight you may have observed, real and what you perceive as real, into the same pile, and IMO, that’s not correct. Of course, there are, um, (generally good-natured) debates where the language may get heated and sarcastic, but likely as not, the apparent "combatants" would drop the debate and go fishing, drinking, whatever together at that very second were it possible.  That is a far cry from attacks by and on Ginkles and others who do or attempt to do real damage.  FWIW, there are only two people, on all of ROFF, past and present, who I would not associate with, Ginkles being one.  As I’ve said it publicly before, so I feel nothing wrong in restating the obvious.  The other, who shall go unnamed, I’d be willing to give the benefit of the doubt should we ever be faced with that situation as the "rift" is, IMO, strictly a difference in personality, not me thinking them as being truly warped.  I suspect that most, if not all, here on ROFF would say a very similar thing. Secondly, any of the, er, debating that takes place is strictly voluntary, and I’ve not seen anyone "attacked" as some seem to imply without the "attackee" getting involved, either by diving in, suggesting that those doing so are wrong, offering opinions on why they are wrong, tips on how to be right, etc.  The best rule on these "debates" is to get in or stay out, because wading in the shallows is still in the water.  If you do wade in the shallows and still get bit, remember that damned little of it is personal, and don’t take it as such. This brings us to a cause of some real problems – getting personal. Don’t do it.  What I mean is going beyond the person on ROFF.  No family members, job/career, etc. unless you are DAMNED sure of what you are doing and willing to deal with the sometimes-dire consequences of making a mistake.  For example, there are several lawyers here, and while a general humorous remark about lawyers is likely OK, "jokingly" accusing one of malpractice is likely gonna get your head torn off, and rightfully so.     As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy.

Then you’d never post anything, and that’s a pity.  There will _always_ be someone more knowledgable than _everyone_ , and they may or may not even participate on ROFF.  So who cares?  99.99 percent of FF’ing and the related info, on or off ROFF, is opinion, guesses, observations, and other highly subjective things.  Heck, the rankest newbie might be the only one in a group with 100 experienced FF’ers to guess, opine, observe, etc., correctly.  As to asking questions, of course, sometimes, someone will have a bad day, not had sex with their wife, been forced to have sex with their wife, gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, or a host of other things that leads to teeing up on someone for no apparent reason.  That ain’t ROFF, USENET, or anything computer-specific, that’s life, and if _that_ is what worries a "newbie," they are screwed before they start.  If you take that sort of thing personally, IMO, ROFF ain’t the problem.   So ask away, and if someone tees up, either ignore it or give it back in spades, but remember that pissing and moaning about it will just invite more.  Again, that isn’t ROFF-specific, that’s life.  As to ROFF itself, go back and look through some threads – when it does happen, it isn’t the "feeding frenzy" some imply, it’s generally one person who, for whatever reason, got their back up, while others either gave the requested info or called the person on their conduct (or both). Which brings us to the next tip: there is a "pecking order," and again, this isn’t ROFF-specific.  There is no real "clique" in that newcomers are excluded simply for being newcomers, but there is a core of people who have been around awhile.  People who have been around awhile do develop a sort of "seniority," most come to "know" each other over the years, and many have actually met or have met in a "7 degrees of separation"-kinda way, and so, can get away with personal liberties, such as chastising, that newcomers (An aside – ya know, I think I like "newcomer" more than "newbie") cannot expect to be able to do.  And yet again, this factor isn’t ROFF-specific, you’ll find it on just about any NG, because that’s the way all of life seems to be. Remember that although this is, to a large extent, not a "face-to-face" medium, and that creates a new, and for some, odd, context.  There are people here who "know" each other, care about each other, know details that only friends would know, share things only friends would share, talk regularly as friends do, etc.  The only "new" thing about some of these friends is that they’ve never _all_ physically met.  But they are friends, nonetheless, and so, act just as two/several friends would act if in the same physical space as opposed to the same electronic space.  And just as with them being in the same physical space, a newcomer can’t expect to simply walk up and be treated as one who has a history with the group.  That doesn’t mean he can’t walk up and begin the process.  So, then, what’s stopping you, or any other potential new friend, from "walking" on up? I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field.

Fuck ‘em. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner.

Basically, other than the tackle differences, and the delivery of same, it’s all just attempting to fool fish with stuff that, amazingly, actually manages to sometimes fool them.  Nobody lives or dies based on FF’ing knowledge, so a newcomer is as welcome to be wrong as the rest. A bunch of good stuff snipped, because it didn’t seem to warrant comment. TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Respectfully submitted,

Response:

 Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

These are the kind of people who cheat at solitaire and then are happy that they won.  Weird. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

fishreeler, i’m looking forward to wetting a line with you in may. fer gawd’s sake, don’t take wading lesson’s from frank <g –waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

– Tight Lines, –Walt Fly Fishing NC & more… http://www.ezflyfish.com http://www.wilsoncreekoutfitters.com

Response:

To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. …      Thank you both for posting what you did. …

Oh yeah, chiming in on a hypocritical screed from the village idiot is the perfect way to win friends and influence people around here. Looking forward to meeting you at Penns. You’ll find this place a lot more entertaining when you put some real faces with the screen names. The flyfishing info itself around here is unmatched anywhere I’ve ever seen, it’s a very rare case when a politely posed (and I mean that in the context of netiquette) query goes unanswered. The "entertainment" is admittedly an "acquired taste". Hang in there and wait til after Penns before going all judgmental on us. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

<whole buncha stuff snipped      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed.

Fishreeler?  Strange name. It’s easy to not get involved in flame wars – if somebody flames you, walk away.  If somebody really pisses you off, killfile ‘em. Make sure Frank brings a warm sleeping bag this year, but tell him to leave the tutu at home.  You’ll have fun at Penns… –Stan

Response:

To George’s Post,

<newbie’s views snipped for brevity Respectfully submitted,

   Dan, hang in with us.  It not all pissin’ into to wind.  This is a Jeckyl and Hyde kinda place, one moment its the Weakest Link on Jerry Springer and the next its linking arms with Barney the Purple Sauropod, singing Kum By Ya while we try to conjure the spirits of Lee Wulff and the Grand Dame.    As I told you this a.m.  Post some trip reports, ask a few salient questions and hang on for the ride.  Don’t be afraid to get flamed. An insult is like a shot of scotch, it only affects you if you accept it.    You will be welcome at the clave (hey, you don’t snore do you?). Oh, the things you will see; lawyers in horizontal striped longjohns, Pirates’ BVDs (best veiwed from a distance), flaming MBA’s juggling boxes (did I get that word order right?), druidic clavemeisters praying to the river Gods, old lech’es luring young mothers into the water for a back rub, naked coed volleyball teams and Amish strippers.     You will also see some of the best fishermen and fisherwomen (I’ve just used up my PC quota for the year) in the world.  Not only are they good at what they do, but they are great at teaching.  The Pirate and Makela on nymphing, Littleton on fly selection, Petah on streamers, Fleischman on cigars, and I’ve even heard that one or two folks can teach you about scotch.     By the way, the price for use of the spare bunk in my tent is a week’s supply of Yeungling.         Good luck and welcome to ROFF.                 Frank The Younger (and better looking) Reid

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

Yes.  But coincidentally there is also a George there who has also spammed unashamedly, and trashed the reputation of his "business" (such as it is) virtually beyond repair.  He refused to see the wisdom of participating like a Walt, Bill, Brian, Al, etc. who all have enriched both their personal lives and their businesses, no doubt, at the same time.  Rather, he chose the path of the fool (he "chose poorly" to quote "IJ and the Last Crusade"), and suffered equally in both areas of his life.  It’s always fascinated me when someone chooses self-destruction.  Lying, cheating or stealing for personal benefit I can understand, if not respect.  These characters, though…. it’s like cheating yourself.  It’s like inflicting self-abuse. It defies understanding.

Response:

Lemme guess, Jeff. Was this over on RSG? I recall some real jewels over there. Wasn’t there some gal that made herself the self-appointed leader of the group. I may be wrong on that, but one things for sure. every circus has it’s own freaks.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg. — After some informal discussions in private email with a few regulars here, I have decided the time has come to request a full Usenet Ignore Penalty (UIP) against the most obvious and antagonistic trolls in [newsgroup]. This UIP is, of course, fully voluntary; each of you is encouraged to do your own thinking and follow your own conscience on this matter. However, I am convinced that a coordinated UIP is the surest way to restore a higher signal:noise ratio to this group. What do I mean by "ignore?"  It goes beyond killfiling, or resisting the impulse to reply to outrageous or inflammatory statements.  We must take the next steps, as well:  We must not even mention these trolls in passing, in humor, or in contempt.  We must not mention them *at all*.  In a properly executed UIP, the recipients of that UIP essentially cease to exist, even as a memory, except possibly insofar as the data packets carrying their unread posts faintly rattle around the network.  They cease to exist.  The group merely goes on about its business as if the trolls never showed up. Who are the trolls in question?  In the spirit of the UIP, I would prefer not to name names.  However — and I speak just for myself here — I would be less than honest not to name [our pest] as the prime example and motivator behind this effort.  Most of you are probably well acquainted with [their] favored techniques.  They include the making of allusions to a hostile old guard, or "clique," in this group; repeated complaints about smear tactics being used by their adversaries; a simultaneous plea to "just talk [hobby]" while continuing to engage in inflammatory accusations unrelated to [hobby]; and quickly embracing certain unpopular (but not trollish) contributors to the group as a way of demonstrating "mob mentality" among those who dislike those contributors. Other trolls might have their own methods.  My belief is that anyone who shows up making inflammatory statements with the apparent intent of drawing attention to himself is probably a troll.  There are others, besides [our pest], who are on my personal list, but I won’t mention them here.  The point is that I encourage you always to ignore trolls as completely as possible.  (My intent, btw, is for this to be my last ever mention of [our pest], in [newsgroup].) Finally, to make this a coordinated effort, I would like for anyone who agrees to participate in this UIP to followup to this post, quote only the paragraph that follows, and write, "I agree," where others can clearly see it.  (You may wish to add specific further comment after that, as I have.)  This henceforth will be referred to as the "2002 RSG Pledge."  If you agree to it, prepare to get grief from me if you break it!  :)  But remember: I respect that the degree to which you participate in this is entirely your decision.  Some of you may prefer to silently participate without publicly embracing the pledge.  I respect that choice, too. —cut here if you agree— "In the interest of preserving the usefulness of [newsgroup] as a forum for discussion of the game as well as a place for friends to affiliate in a collegial manner, I agree not to respond in [newsgroup] to any posts made seemingly solely to disrupt that atmosphere, regardless of their inflammatory or even defamatory nature. Further, I agree that those who habitually post in such a fashion are not worthy of any discussion or even mention in [newsgroup], and that therefore I will not make any specific mention of any of these individuals in any post to this newsgroup."

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To George’s Post,      As you all know, I am new here in posting. I dont post much, but I do, none the less. I believe that you hit the nail on the head. As a new newbie, I have been reading the feuds that have been flying around here for some time. I do not respond to these as I do not feel as though I can make a positive difference in the outcome of the way people are, or to where they are moving with the constant bickering.      As I sat and read the postings previously stated, I started thinking to myself: What could I possibly contribute to this group? I am the not only a newbie on ROFF, but a newbie to the Fly Fishing World. I started looking over this group at the suggestion of Frank Reid, whom I have known for a very short time, almost as long as I have been prowling ROFF. I came to this group to learn all that I could, to get some kind of direction, if you will. In fear of opening my mouth and asking a "stupid newbie" question, I kept to my own in fear of the embarrassment of not knowing as much as the next guy. I had thoughts about not getting involved at all with any of the group because the offensive ones would surely break in and criticize me for my lack of experience in the field. If you talk lures, baits, the other type of fishing with casting line, I could probably talk your ear off, but on this level, I am but a beginner. However, I thought that there are always those who would be out there that enjoy spoilling it for others who love the sport so much. To make themselves inferior of that person. Somehow they get grattification out of making others miserable, and if they succeed, it is a good days work.      I know that most people in this arena are here out of love and respect for the art of fly fishing and tying. Otherwise, if they did not get that simple pleasure of just talking about it, they wouldnt be here. We wouldnt be here. Right?      I feel that I have more of a love for the sport than a disgust for those who would try to spoil it for me. Therefore, I will be around for a while with this group and I will enjoy the information that is passed here so that I can become a better fly fisherman, more informed and better equipped to go after the end result, getting out on the water and using what I have learned to catch fish.      This May will be my maiden voyage to Penns Creek. I will be going up with Frank as he and I have discussed. I will probably be the newest newbie there too, but that doesnt matter. I know that there will be some fine fisherman there who will be more than happy to take me under their wing and teach me what I came there for. It will be a total learning experience for me and I am very excited. I wish that we were in April making final preperations. They all come together in a brotherhood out of the goodness and simplicity of just getting back to the water. A migration, just as with the trout. This is the impression that I get from Frank.      In final, we must all take the good with the bad, and make our own decisions if that is the type of person that we would want to hang with, or even talk with. Noone is any different than the next person, only in perception from the recipient of the criticism or the person who dishes it out. I know that I for one have my own opinions on certain people in here. Some are fishing Gods, and others are fishing Dogs. I know who I will be talking to.       THis is all in my own opinion, I just felt, that as the newbie here, I would get my opinion in while I can. Fishing is a learning experience for me, however, life has been with me for much longer.      Thank you both for posting what you did. I know that I feel much better about being here, especially when most of you know how I feel.      Thank you very much, once again. Bravo! Respectfully submitted,

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It simply takes discipline   Peter

I’m on your side Pete.  But for Pete’s sake, Pete, you know most of these guys smoke and drink and quit doing anything takes real discipline, which they don’t have . . . so that thesis goes right down the toilet.  These guys just don’t have will power. Thing is Pete, I’m more addictive than cigarettes, alcohol, or even women.   Life sucks, but it sure is better with you in it Pete. Hang tough padre, keep up the good ideas; George Please note the equal opprotunity response I returned to you? You’re welcome Pete.

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So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

I would expect that anyone who indulges in this behaviour and is subjected to this consequence, would escalate his/her trolling in an effort to break the discipline of the group.  If the group cracks, things go back to normal.  If group discipline holds, the posts *will* disappear.  People who indulge in this behaviour abhor silence. It simply takes discipline and the willingness to stick with it over the long haul.  If some people continue to indulge the troll for their personal enjoyment or out of a warped sense of fair play, they weaken the effect.  Whether a diminished chorus would remain sufficient amusement for the troll, is difficult to say.  100% compliance is a practical impossibility and it is not needed.  The group replies have to drop below the threshold of the individual’s need for attention. Once that need is not being met at a sufficient level, the individual will move one. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Well, I choose to go to tools, options, send and uncheck the send immediately box. this allows me to respond vigorously, vent my feelings and get a load off my mind. then the next day I can re-read the stuff in my outbox and see if I still want to send it… Is something like that what you are talking about Jeff…..? john

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So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Frankly Stan, with a little cooperation of mature debating and without having a need to throw rocks, it is easy to agree with you because you just said it better than I ever could. As I had posted, most sincerely to Jeff’s opinion, I’m only a barometer of Roff.  I had explained so many times, talk nice to me and we and many others will talk nice to you.  I am surprised about rec.sports.golf has the same problem because personally, I cannot suffer fools and I see you are the same because you are not the foolish kind nor are you in roff to prove anything, as I am.  I just happen to be a fighter.  I may not be tactful because that only works with gentlemen.   I believe this will all tone down once roff realizes that darwinian isn’t a license to act like the wild west.  I, like you enjoy learning new things and roff does have some mighty smart people in it.  It also behooves many of my email determines how some college graduates who are now in the white collar trades can lose their cool so quickly in roff with each other and so often? For sake of good order, it would make no difference in roff if I left, which I did for four weeks recently.  Roff STILL found others to feed upon and there is no denying this fact.  Roff is like the snake that always has to bite someone because it is its nature.  That old saying is in fact very true as it applies to this group in general. I have observed that on the side, there are men in roff which I regard as top drawer.  That they must try and communicate in such a beehive of raging maniacs of false, insulted sensibilities (or any other excuse they deem fit) to exposes their frustrations, short of hitting on their wives or daughters, is frankly . . . so amazing!  Roff, in so many ways is but the mirror of those who deal daily with bad bosses, supervisors, duel personalities in the social scheme of things that they come to roff to "dump on anyone" they can, just to get even.  Frankly, what I don’t know about Roffian behavior and why people such as Ken Fortenberry, David LaCourse, and his ilk like Charlie Choc behave as they do is much greater than any of us know.  Which means, they can’t help being the way they are!  They are just pissed at the world in general. Frankly, I’m really a very funny guy in person and I have a great sense of humor Stan.  Venting hostilities with humor would serve a good many in roff a lot better then swearing at each other.  There is a knack at putting down anyone cleverly, if that is their need but it is my opinion it takes a better man to lift someone’s spirits rather than jumping on a Newbies just to show off one’s intellectual dominance. I have always said that when you put two people in a room, as in roff, one mind will always try and dominate the other.  When it comes to two gentlemen who respect each other, that is seldom the case.  They simply enjoy talking to each other.  Roff has forgotten how to enjoy talking with each other. I notice the fondness in general of the folk in North Carolina have for each other and it is gentle jousting but it is intended in friendship. Outside that area, it doesn’t generally extend to the west coast, have you noticed?  Those who play together get along better together has merit and that is why I’ve always thought a Conclave would be a good idea and they have proven to be just that. Now then, since I’m on a roll here, I should explain that the reason I have yet to want to attend any Conclave is I don’t believe in trying to be comfortable with anyone that in person, they smile at each other as if they never attacked each other then go home and be so vicious with each other when they are gone.  This Jeckle/Hyde persona just doesn’t wash with me.  It is  two faced, it is cowardly, and it doesn’t allow my nature to trust such people away and/or in person.  A man should be exactly as he seems here as he should be in person.  Understanding, reason, giving allowances, benefit of the doubt, all go a long ways. Certain Roffians could care less how reasonable someone tries to be with them.  They don’t want that.  They want the chaos to continue and they will do anything to keep it going. Roff has some professional trollers who’s job it is to influence public opinion and I will leave it at that.  They have that writing style that points to them like a flashing red light. They are somewhat knowledgeable but they are also totally predictable.   Over a good period of time Stan, we all get a sense of where we want to be in Roff.  I know there are several hundred fly fishing people who watch and read roff periodically and they leave in disgust.  They leave and won’t post not because they did anything disgusting, but because Roff is its own best enemy.  People want to visit friendly people, and when ROFF as a whole allows the type of personal demeaning behavior of people like Ken Fortenberry, or any of the others that talk the same way to others to continue, it simply is not the place they want to be.  Roff is just poorer for it and it behooves me and many others how so many in roff are fearful of correcting what they think are their friends? Possibly, you don’t agree Stan, but you’ve written me in private before and your messages have always been on a high plain and enjoyable.  Why can’t all the others talk to each other with the same respect and interest?  Take me out of the picture, the banter never stops.  It is time to stand up and be counted and I sure know I can stand up as reasonable as anyone else in roff. As they will say in Utah . . . "let the games begin." Just don’t change Stan, because I sure haven’t. ; ) Your pal, George Gehrke "the house pest"

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So, similar problems in rec.sports.golf?  Gee, I thought only ROFF had problems with trolls.  Unfortunately, the last time this was tried here, it did reduce the flame wars, but didn’t deter the troll.  He just acted like everybody loved him because the attacks went away.  He probably increased his posting.  That would make a good research project for the Deja miners.

Response:

In response to wayno, I submit the following post which I’ve copied verbatim from another newsgroup.  This group had a similar problem for about a year, but following the show of support from this post, the pest finally cracked and left (or claimed to and appears to have.)  I make no comment for or against the following idea, other than to say that it’s a tad geeky for my taste, and I did not publicly respond to it like many did, but I did follow the spirit and have not replied to or mentioned the pest since.  It’s here merely as an FYI.  However, feel to respond to the following as if it were a genuine ROFF post.  end of my msg.

You know Jeff?  This is so full on nonsense I can’t believe you actually believe this stuff?  Case in point. Just recently, a gentleman asked a question about whether he should weight his nymphs or not.  To the last man in ROFF, EVERYONE said yes. Okay.  Fine and good. I Post in Roff my opinions and experiences gathered in over 50 years in fly fishing partner.  I was the only one to say, "No, you don’t want to do that," and I proceeded to explain the "why of it." Seems, according to the responses to "George’s Post" how hard everyone tried to tear the years of experience I had with Nymphing, apart.  Now then, do you care to deny this? I wrote a very intelligent, factual, informative piece in which I’d wager my life upon, everyone had received "food for thought," because they never heard this "stuff" before.  Do you care to deny this also? Just because I am the mirror of ROFF, doesn’t mean I’m a Village Idiot at all. The idiots are those who stoop to lower levels because "they didn’t think about or know what I know" and it galls them to listen to a winner.  Big dang deal.  Ask me if I care? All you guys should realize I haven’t changed one bit since the first day I arrived to help out in Roff.  What you all haven’t learned is that I’m my own man.  You talk to me nasty and like the mirror I am, you will get back exactly the same in return.  The worse you give the same about you receive.  Haven’t any of you learned this yet?  You talk nice to me and others and you get exactly the same in return.  But you know what? A lot of you are too stupid to have figured this out in several years now. LaCourse goes back and pulls out a nasty piece of response but he doesn’t bring up the post it was responding to, does he.  Roff’s whole history, is one of the Key Board Colt .45  The great equalizer.  So if some of you will start reading this post with a little open mindedness, you might get insight not into me so much as much as you will about yourselves.   Case in point:  Every one of you go back and match YOUR POSTS to me. The good get good and serious responses.  The Ugly get slapped right back in the face.  Simple as that. Now then, I will admit to past "trolls, or baiting roff," which isn’t hard to do, but I haven’t done that for a while.  When I do this, I put in this:  ; ) cast . . . mend, etc. and this some of you know is my way of stirring some fun up, but I can’t remember ever starting something in a hateful or mean manner.  Outside that, I’m the same "George the Fly Fisherman" you have always known. The problem with ROFF is never have I seen the truth exploited as well where "Familiarity Breeds Contempt."  Some of you would do well to stop and read this carefully because I’m not pulling any punches with you now.  I have had many well know fly fishermen, and all of you know I am close to many of them, who have said to me . . . "I have seen what a bunch of jerks are in Roff George and if I were to come there to help, sooner or later they would start the same things with me."  Well, this is TRUE!  Not all, those who have ever piled upon my back are the same ones that would do it to others, no matter what the famous fly fisherman was.  Why?  Because deep down, some of you bastards have an insatiable need to demean people who have made it up the ladder of success. I see the same thing happen yearly with the qualified gentry of fly fishing.  One was in a bar having evening cocktails with me.  Before long, our table was filled with fly fishermen horning in.  They weren’t invited to join us, but it comes with the territory.  So here I am, letting you guys in on what goes through our heads because we ARE human.  We don’t say anything, and soon all the chairs are full, others are pulled up and then there is a standing crowd.  It isn’t long, someone makes a wise crack to my well known friend, where upon, without comment . . . (not much) he gets up and quietly leave for his room. I do the same. Why is it, some of you guys simply are jerks?  This isn’t MY opinion but it is the common thread I receive from all around this world about YOU GUYS!  I didn’t say, "about me," but YOU GUYS!   A bunch of you think you’re righteous because you have a common bond of being a bunch of junk yard dogs who dare anyone to come in here and invade your domain.  This is nonsense. There is a lot of talent watching your every thread and I’m talking fly fishing talent that would bury Roff!  BURY IT!  They don’t come here because they hate your guts and that is the truth.  However; these same people are writing me behind your back saying one common thing.  "Hang in there George.  Don’t quit.  I love everything you write regarding fly fishing, etc."  Now this is the truth.  You Sludge Slugs of Roff can feed on your own hateful nature, fill your egos by trying to demean others and as I said before, you really are only demeaning yourselves. What you see with me is what you’re going to get.   I’m not going anywhere gentlemen.  I’m staying right here.  If you don’t want to read my stuff, go party somewhere else because this is "MY SANDBOX" and your here talking to me because you’re invited.  What I mean by that is, you talk nice to me and if I respond, that is the invite.   That’s the way its going to be.  Take it or leave it, and frankly I’d prefer if some of you simply leave it because you do nothing but waste good air. So you do have a choice.     George Gehrke "Fly Fisherman" http://www.gink.com A Site full of bastards

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Question:

And, there are plenty of obnoxious people who aren’t wealthy. Snoop

Is it really necessary or proper to talk about me behind my back in a public forum? Op

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Nothing funny about that IMO.

I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer. — Charlie…

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  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.

I’m jealous! Usually, I get over there for a few days this time of year, but it doesn’t look like I’ll make it this spring. I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.

I’ll occassionally use a parachute-style with a flourescent orange post. You might be surprised. There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.

Streamers. Big, ugly, heavy streamers… on a sink-tip…swinging and stripping….swing and stripping (could be new lines for another song, Warren) We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.

You gotta love Polly’s! A great place to eat…..and probably the only place in the state where they’d look at you funny if you WEREN’T wearing waders. I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish. Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)

There is NOTHING more frustrating than to have fish slurping away in front of you and your people just CANNOT put it together to get the fly past the oar. AAARRRGGGHHH! On a side note: Did they all have on the big "hair ball" "bazooka blobs" "exploding fireworks" kinda strike indicators that you can see for a gazillion feet??? — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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I’ll occassionally use a parachute-style with a flourescent orange post. You might be surprised.

  Good idea.  I should have thought of that.  I did have one fish come close to taking my flor. green strike indicator.  I’ll give it a try next time I go. You gotta love Polly’s! A great place to eat…..and probably the only place in the state where they’d look at you funny if you WEREN’T wearing waders.

  I like it because it’s a cheap place to stay in the off season.  The food’s pretty good, too, but a little overpriced.  I had the steak sandwich Wed. night.  It was really good but didn’t "sit well" and I was up half the night.  Meat tenderizer?  The really cheap rooms at the cafe were booked so Kevin and I got the trailer.  That costs $36.00/head but it was nice and roomy.  I think you could sleep 8 or 9 people there but I’ll bet they close it up and winterize for the off season. On a side note: Did they all have on the big "hair ball" "bazooka blobs" "exploding fireworks" kinda strike indicators that you can see for a gazillion feet???

  Yes, there were quite a few of those on the river.  I tried them once and didn’t like them.  I use the larger foam floats with the slit down the side and a piece of rubber through the center.  They seem to cast better for me, are easily adjustable and always float.  What’s the deal with the giant fluff balls?  No wonder so many people have trouble casting in the wind.  Wouldn’t they get along better with the more streamlined floats?   Also, as a guide, do you have any humorous stories to tell?  I think most guides must earn every penny.  Looks like a tough life to me.  Also looks like a good way to turn an enjoyable hobby into drudgery. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer.

Well, whatever floats your boat there Charlie.

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Well, whatever floats your boat there Charlie.

I don’t think it’s my boat that’s bothering you… — Charlie…

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Nothing funny about that IMO. I didn’t say *you* would think it was funny. <g But I do. Kind of like moving to a whorehouse to be around pretty girls – you have to put up with the occasional customer.

As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did. JR

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As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

You should see how annoyed the whorehouses get under similar circumstances ! TL MC

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As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

That’s funny. How about it, Warren? Do you have a come back? (I’m saying that as an unapologetic, recent, fair-weather Idaho transplant.) Where do you live, JR? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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 What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did.

Yep. I hope to share that feeling about someplace, someday. <g — Charlie…

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Where do you live, JR?

Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana. JR

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As one of the very people you described (first visited here for the fishing and camping, then moved here for the fishing and camping), I agree with you that it’s funny.  What’s even funnier is that we don’t really mind the tourists, despite our griping, as long as they remain tourists.  What really, really, really annoys us is when they want move here like we did. You should see how annoyed the whorehouses get under similar circumstances !

I dunno, amateur night at the local is always an " uplifting " experience. — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TL MC

Response:

That’s funny. How about it, Warren? Do you have a come back? (I’m saying that as an unapologetic, recent, fair-weather Idaho transplant.)

Yeah I have a come back.  You got to draw the line somewhere so I move that we start with RW. ~ Seriously though, JR is right to some degree.  When you move somewhere and become accustomed to a certain quality of living, you have to do what you can to protect it.  If I moved to an area because it was remote, had everything that I wanted and the very reasons why I moved here were threatened due to overcrowding, you better believe I am going to bitch when things start getting crowded. Most of it isn’t so much the number of people but the quality around here. Californians are equated as being liberal tree huggers who want their 20 acre "ranch" along the river and despise the stream access laws.  It is somewhat true, but there are a lot of people from back East who are far worse in my experiences.  It is a more a quality of the people coming issue. Natives don’t give me any crap for being an ex resident of California because I hold many of the same views as they do and am not a threat to the quality of life. Now that I am a resident and have been for several years, am bound to this valley by blood that I cannot leave, I am somewhat trapped.  I do not make any money off tourism and never have.  Tourists decend in hoards upon the rivers that I fish year around and force me to either brave the masses or fish somewhere else.  It doesn’t bother me too much because I don’t go the rivers where I feel like I can’t fish.  I have plenty of places to fish, even on the crowded rivers, that see fewer people. In some areas it is a problem and that isn’t just me saying that.  That is the opinion of users of the resources when polled by the DFW.  The Beaverhead is a prime example of that.  I think I told the story about how I was there opening day last year and the place was so crowded you couldn’t even find a campsite.  Two Montana plates, the rest from out of state. My take on this, and Charlie can laugh if he wants to, is that I am a resident.  I pay taxes here, I live here, the water was deeded over to the state by the federal government (if you need legal citings, I can provide them).  It is property of the state, not the union.  Our state Constitution is not applicable to residents of other states in regards to property.  Just like you don’t go by Montana property laws if you live outside of Montana and we don’t go by other state’s laws.  Being a resident and being governed by the state Constitution and the laws of Montana, I should have a greater right to the water than someone from out of state.  It is a right under our Constitution, BTW. I am not calling for an outright ban on out of state anglers or anything like that, just some limits so that residents of this state can enjoy what is theirs once in a while.  I was hoping they were going to either give river permits on a limited basis on crowded waters to out of state anglers, or set aside certain days for residents.  There is only one river that I have fished where this is necessary and that is the Beaverhead.  The Big Horn is a much larger river and even when crowded, I have never felt like I was lacking water to fish.  Same thing on the Madison.  I find there is plenty of water to fish and only a few areas that are really crowded to the point where there are problems and the quality of the experience is diminished due to the crowds.  The whole issue of crowds is a seasonal case anyways.  I always have the winters to enjoy being one of the few people on a river, if not the only person. That’s my story and I am sticking to it. <g — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

Response:

Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana.

That’s just an outright lie.  Idaho is the best place to be.  Montana is scorched Earth, whirling disease desimated trout streams, New Zealand mud snail infested, and dirt poor.  Idaho on the other hand isn’t as bad off. Oregon is the best place in the world to be though.  They have good paying jobs, excellent hunting and their fishing is one of the best kept secrets in the lower 48. HTH — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

Response:

Bend, Oregon, which was a wonderful place before I arrived, became a true paradise on earth for a while after I got here, and is now a stinking hell hole, altogether a far, far less attractive place than many I can think of in Idaho and Montana. That’s just an outright lie.  Idaho is the best place to be.  Montana is scorched Earth, whirling disease desimated trout streams, New Zealand mud snail infested, and dirt poor.  Idaho on the other hand isn’t as bad off. Oregon is the best place in the world to be though.  They have good paying jobs, excellent hunting and their fishing is one of the best kept secrets in the lower 48. HTH

Well, there’s another damnable lie (about Oregon, the Calcutta of the West), but at least it’s offset by the God’s honest truth about Idaho: the new Jerusalem, brothers, an Elysian utopia with trout the size of snowmobiles and blissful citizens (of the very highest ethical standards, mind you) ready to welcome their fellow sportsmen with open arms.  Every fishing and hunting guide a nubile ex-cheerleader who makes Angie look like Howard Stern.  Every publican and shopkeeper a source of freely shared information– earned over a lifetime–about honey holes where the steelhead chase each other off in order to be the first to impale themselves on your hook. Fishing in Oregon?!?!  Oh, my.  A long time ago, maybe.  Now you could catch more fish out of the average toilet bowl in New York City, son.  And even that was before the Terrible Drought of 2001, a sure harbinger of impending ecological collapse.  These days, before you can tie on a fly in Oregon you have to file an environmental impact statement.  Hell’s bells. Everyone *here* is moving to Idaho! JR

Response:

It’s also funny to see people who live in states that make a bunch of money from tourism bitch about tourists, especially the ones who were tourists there once themselves. <g

I don’t make any money off of tourism either directly or indirectly and haven’t been any tourist related industries.  I moved to Montana without ever coming as a tourist.  I got accepted to school out here, had relatives who used to live out here and moved based on pictures, school, and their opinion of the place, and the promises of good fishing and hunting.  I am now a legal resident, have been for 5 years, I was married here, my daughter was born here and I am trapped here until my daughter gets older.  Nothing funny about that IMO. — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

Response:

A few more trips and you will have a new definition of crowded.  Glad you caught lots of fish, always makes the trip more enjoyable.  I hear you on the high rollers who can’t cast.  Catching fish in front of them is always a blast and I am happy you got that experience

  Oh, yeah, you have some experience being in a boat with a tyro who couldn’t cast, don’t you?  Did your "line welts" heal up?   I’m afraid I came off anti elitist.  It’s not any of my business how much someone wants to spend on their hobby.  They aren’t any different from you or me.  They just want to have fun.  Of course, they can buy a lot more fun than a lot of us:)  Still, I can’t help suffering from some smug satisfaction when I catch fish on my $40.00 Three Forks while they flail away with their $2,500 bamboo rods.  (Heck, I’m still trying to save money for one of G’s moderately priced bamboo rods.)  Once I get my last daughter out of college I may be able to splurge a bit.  My goal in life is to end up like Charlie—-80 rods with a deluxe reel for each one.  But, I won’t take it as far as he does.  You know, long finger nails, long gray beard and hair, sleeps with all his rods, wears a white gown and sprays everyone and everything with disinfectant spray and designs large, wooden airplanes:) Snoop —

Response:

The ones that crack me up are those that think their money will get them fish.  My buddy that guided in Idaho last summer had some stories about several rich, stuck up people who didn’t want to learn how to do things the right way, but thought that the gear they bought and the money they spent on a trip guaranteed them success.  Money does not equate with skill or success and it is hard for these people to realize that.  When I see them out there flailing the water into a froth giving dirty looks to their guides as if it is his fault, I get a laugh.  Especially after I pull out fish right in front of them.  It isn’t that I am against people with money who fish, hell I fish with RW don’t I?

  Anyone, wealthy or not, who goes to the expense and time to travel to fish with a guide and doesn’t take local advice gets what they deserve. I have a good friend who guided in Alaska for 20+ years.  Had a couple of jet boats and a Cessna 180 on floats.  He guided hunters and fishermen.  We’ve sat around a few campfires and listened to his stories.  Very interesting.  The hunters were the worst.  Generally, the fishermen were easier to be around.  The bear stories were hair raising and I don’t think I care to fly with any Alaska bush pilots.  (Well, actually, I don’t like flying with anyone else but my friend who’s a retired 747 pilot.) It is the attitude of the rich, stuck up snobs that I enjoy tweaking.  I have met several people who had tons of money out fishing and were actually very eager to learn and asked lots of questions.  Those types of people I like, very down to earth and just willing to learn because they love fly fishing.  It is the ones who have to announce to an entire fly shop that they need to use their Platinum card to buy half dozen flies as if we should be impressed that they have a Platinum card that piss me off, the ones like Peter posted about at one of the fly shops he goes to with the guy’s buddy looking at a reel, etc.  I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people.

  Yep, those are the people who rub me the wrong way.  But, they’re not necessarily rich.  A lot of those clowns are up to their necks in credit card debt and are one pay check away from losing cars, houses and their mistresses.  And, there are plenty of obnoxious people who aren’t wealthy. Snoop —

Response:

 I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people.

It’s also funny to see people who live in states that make a bunch of money from tourism bitch about tourists, especially the ones who were tourists there once themselves. <g — Charlie…

Response:

My goal in life is to end up like Charlie—-80 rods with a deluxe reel for each one.  But, I won’t take it as far as he does.  You know, long finger nails, long gray beard and hair, sleeps with all his rods, wears a white gown and sprays everyone and everything with disinfectant spray and designs large, wooden airplanes:)

    That’s my late uncle Howie you’re describing. I helped him write his will, but I don’t want to be like him.

Response:

  Oh, yeah, you have some experience being in a boat with a tyro who couldn’t cast, don’t you?  Did your "line welts" heal up?

Yeah, the line welts went away and the lump from getting nailed by split shot and bead heads eventually went away also.   I’m afraid I came off anti elitist.  It’s not any of my business how much someone wants to spend on their hobby.  They aren’t any different from you or me.  They just want to have fun.  Of course, they can buy a lot more fun than a lot of us:)  Still, I can’t help suffering from some smug satisfaction when I catch fish on my $40.00 Three Forks while they flail away with their $2,500 bamboo rods.

The ones that crack me up are those that think their money will get them fish.  My buddy that guided in Idaho last summer had some stories about several rich, stuck up people who didn’t want to learn how to do things the right way, but thought that the gear they bought and the money they spent on a trip guaranteed them success.  Money does not equate with skill or success and it is hard for these people to realize that.  When I see them out there flailing the water into a froth giving dirty looks to their guides as if it is his fault, I get a laugh.  Especially after I pull out fish right in front of them.  It isn’t that I am against people with money who fish, hell I fish with RW don’t I? It is the attitude of the rich, stuck up snobs that I enjoy tweaking.  I have met several people who had tons of money out fishing and were actually very eager to learn and asked lots of questions.  Those types of people I like, very down to earth and just willing to learn because they love fly fishing.  It is the ones who have to announce to an entire fly shop that they need to use their Platinum card to buy half dozen flies as if we should be impressed that they have a Platinum card that piss me off, the ones like Peter posted about at one of the fly shops he goes to with the guy’s buddy looking at a reel, etc.  I enjoy watching them suffer when they go fishless because they are too stubborn and stuck up to listen to the "hired help" or "riff raff".  They are out there and certainly do exist.  I have found the Big Horn to have a high concentration of those types of people. — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

Response:

  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  

Thanks for the report. I also find larger rivers more difficult to fish (and less fun) than smaller waters. It is more like lake fishing to me. Since they are so large and usually so deep, fish holding and feeding areas often must be inferred rather than observed. A low gradient river like the Bighorn is even more difficult. Willi

Response:

Thanks for the report. I also find larger rivers more difficult to fish (and less fun) than smaller waters. It is more like lake fishing to me. Since they are so large and usually so deep, fish holding and feeding areas often must be inferred rather than observed. A low gradient river like the Bighorn is even more difficult. Willi

  One of the biggest problems I face is the amount of weight needed to fish deeper holes and/or fast current. Slinging all that weight with an indicator and dropper fly all day in the wind is not my idea of great fun. Snoop —

Response:

A few more trips and you will have a new definition of crowded.  Glad you caught lots of fish, always makes the trip more enjoyable.  I hear you on the high rollers who can’t cast.  Catching fish in front of them is always a blast and I am happy you got that experience

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  As I said in another post, I couldn’t believe the number (tons ?) of midges on the water and in the air.  With all of the midges available, we saw very little surface action.  I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.  Perhaps an unrelated, larger fly like a Royal Wulff?   All of the action for us was on nymphs, scuds or midge pupa.  One of the hottest flies was the brown/tan thread body, black thread head that I learned about at the San Juan clave tied on size 20 & 22 hooks.  The guy that I was fishing with (Kevin) kept a few Browns and checked stomach contents.  Most of the contents were the little brown/gray midge pupa.  There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.  We caught about half browns and half bows.  No whitefish this time.   We floated from 3 mile to Bighorn both days.  The river was crowded but I guess I’m getting more used to it. We did fish one side channel that was too shallow for drift boats and spent a lot of time there both days.  We had no one else fish through so it was quite enjoyable.  This was probably the best area we fished on this trip.  I think this kind of water is easier to fish.  The main river just seems so big and intimidating and I have a hard time knowing where to start to fish. There’s just so many choices.  It seems like a lot of places I think are "fishy" don’t have any fish that I can catch.   I spent a lot of time watching other fishermen and the guides.  Kind of a fun pastime but probably responsible for a lot of missed fish.  We saw 2 beautiful wood drift boats that looked like they came off the showroom floor.  It was interesting watching all of the different experience levels of fishermen.  It seemed like there were a lot of novices on the stream these 2 days.  We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.  Looked like they just fell off the cover of a LL Bean catalog.  Some of those guys had more money invested in one rod that I have in all my fishing gear.  I guess a few of the resorts up there are $500/day.  I’d like to visit with a few of those guys just to see what they think about the whole deal.  I imagine flying into Billings from big cities in the east or west would be kind of a mind blower.  Wonder what they thought when they traveled through the "beautiful" town of Lodge Grass or finally arrived at Ft Smith?  I’ll bet they felt like they were at the end of the world.  I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish.  Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)  Of course, we were all the style what with our North Dakota drift boat (20 year old John boat) and our flashy dress (we looked like all of the roffers I’ve met at claves with the exception of Charlie who is always spiffed up to a "T", I suppose in case he runs across a high class book store or brothel).   I suppose that’s my last trip to the Horn until late fall.  We should be thawing at the higher elevations shortly around here and I’ll be going to work in a couple of weeks which will really raise hell with fishing for awhile:( Snoop —

Response:

  I fished the Bighorn on Wed & Thurs.  It was a great trip.  I caught 9 fish on Wed. and 18 on Thursday.  That’s more like it!  As I said in another post, I couldn’t believe the number (tons ?) of midges on the water and in the air.  With all of the midges available, we saw very little surface action.  I have no idea how one would go about fishing a dry with all of the stuff on the water.  Perhaps an unrelated, larger fly like a Royal Wulff?   All of the action for us was on nymphs, scuds or midge pupa.  One of the hottest flies was the brown/tan thread body, black thread head that I learned about at the San Juan clave tied on size 20 & 22 hooks.  The guy that I was fishing with (Kevin) kept a few Browns and checked stomach contents.  Most of the contents were the little brown/gray midge pupa.  There were some dirty orange scuds and one black leach about 3 inches long.  We caught about half browns and half bows.  No whitefish this time.   We floated from 3 mile to Bighorn both days.  The river was crowded but I guess I’m getting more used to it. We did fish one side channel that was too shallow for drift boats and spent a lot of time there both days.  We had no one else fish through so it was quite enjoyable.  This was probably the best area we fished on this trip.  I think this kind of water is easier to fish.  The main river just seems so big and intimidating and I have a hard time knowing where to start to fish. There’s just so many choices.  It seems like a lot of places I think are "fishy" don’t have any fish that I can catch.   I spent a lot of time watching other fishermen and the guides.  Kind of a fun pastime but probably responsible for a lot of missed fish.  We saw 2 beautiful wood drift boats that looked like they came off the showroom floor.  It was interesting watching all of the different experience levels of fishermen.  It seemed like there were a lot of novices on the stream these 2 days.  We saw a few sports at the cafe that were really decked out.  Looked like they just fell off the cover of a LL Bean catalog.  Some of those guys had more money invested in one rod that I have in all my fishing gear.  I guess a few of the resorts up there are $500/day.  I’d like to visit with a few of those guys just to see what they think about the whole deal.  I imagine flying into Billings from big cities in the east or west would be kind of a mind blower.  Wonder what they thought when they traveled through the "beautiful" town of Lodge Grass or finally arrived at Ft Smith?  I’ll bet they felt like they were at the end of the world.  I’ll bet the pressure is on the guides to get these high rollers some fish.  Kevin and I derived some perverse pleasure in catching fish right in front of the high rollers while the guide was trying to help them get a cast out at least 10 feet:)  Of course, we were all the style what with our North Dakota drift boat (20 year old John boat) and our flashy dress (we looked like all of the roffers I’ve met at claves with the exception of Charlie who is always spiffed up to a "T", I suppose in case he runs across a high class book store or brothel).   I suppose that’s my last trip to the Horn until late fall.  We should be thawing at the higher elevations shortly around here and I’ll be going to work in a couple of weeks which will really raise hell with fishing for awhile:( Snoop —

Response:

Question:

Here I am, enjoying the hospitality of the venerable Louie LaPlac.   As much as I have enjoyed the company of the legendary Joanne and Louie, the Orvis thing is true.  Here I sit surrounded by Orvis paraphenalia.  An Orvis lamp, Orvis garbage can – - – Orvis parachutes!!!   Even Orvis socks.   I can’t take this much longer.  T-Bone help.  Drive up here in your Orvis Jeep and save me. Peter Charles Dave LaCourse

Response:

Peter Charles drunkenly writes:

(snipperooooooo) << I can’t take this much longer.  T-Bone help.  Drive up here in your Orvis Jeep and save me. and is "mellow".  Don’t believe him.  Great guy, Peter.  Great wife, Delightfully Drunk Dave

Response:

wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter

Response:

fellers…11:47 pm and you’ve just had a wonderful dinner??  i sense that a case of sleemans must have been the appetizer, eh? BTW, peter, you’ll be happy to know that your old one weight was deftly handled by forty in the blue ridge and bent frequently in a nice arc with a feisty carolina brookie on the fly…though he alleged the rod assisted him in the catch, i know (and he later admitted) it was actually the hat he acquired at Faye’s Store in Linville.  are you guys coming to forty’s fall ball in the smokies? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter

Response:

fellers…11:47 pm and you’ve just had a wonderful dinner??  i sense that a case of sleemans must have been the appetizer, eh?

jeff, can you believe these guys? a pair of profligitic reprobates if there ever was. here we are down here in NC, ever without the opportunity to indulge and fish….and these rusty recreants have to rub our noses in it. a pox on ‘em i say. oh well, i couldn’t get away to gatlinburg for the fff clave…. i’ll just have to be content explorin’ b****** crik later today with that no-good scuppernonger, mccray. ski ya, waldo — Ezflyfish.com                 Blue Ridge Book Gallery Quality Gear & Service        Used & Out-of-Print Books http://www.ezflyfish.com      http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

Oh, we don’t feel good this morning.  After much oj and good coffee, we are off to see some of the places where we Yankees kicked the mush out of King George’s fellows.  Of course Peter will approach these places with tight jaws, but what the hey. Dave I think I’ve found a new calling in life, giving history lessons to these damn Yankees. Peter

Response:

Weel, once upon a time my friends and I were headed up to Great Lakes steelhead fishery one fall on our first ever steelhead trip. Not really knowing much about it,  suggested we stop at a shop and get the skinny so to speak.  Being new to the sport and having  a fly fishing type magazine in my possession I looked in the directory and found an Orvis shop which we DETOURED to stop at. Bearded, beered and heavily smoked we stopped in to get the latest.  About the best we could do was have one of the clerks, not yet of shaving age, offer to take our….ahem…group, fishing at the price of a hundred dollars a day per man for a half day. To which I studiously replied that I just wanted some recommendations on what flies to use.  Evidently afraid that we might accidentally brush up against some of the finer clothing hanging on the racks we were…rather unceremoniously I thought, given the brush off. However, this perturbed not my good friend Chuck who marched right up to the young feller and said, "Ah the hell with it. Just gimme a dozen night crawlers." I laugh to this day…….john

Response:

Here I am, enjoying the hospitality of the venerable Louie LaPlac.   As much as I have enjoyed the company of the legendary Joanne and Louie, the Orvis thing is true.  Here I sit surrounded by Orvis paraphenalia.  An Orvis lamp, Orvis garbage can – - – Orvis parachutes!!!   Even Orvis socks.   I can’t take this much longer.  T-Bone help.  Drive up here in your Orvis Jeep and save me.

I would but I might be going to the Frying Pan in the AM and I’m going to need all my strength up there….I’m afraid you’re on your own.   (A hint though…unravel one of the orvis socks when LaCourse hits the Orvis pillow….and tie up a few Bromodrosis Caddis) Your pal, — TimW

Response:

..and tie up a few Bromodrosis Caddis) Yep, had you pegged as a Zappa fan years ago! brent

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wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter

        the hem of her garment…the hem of her garment… i weep. wayno

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – wayno I’ve just had a wondeful dinner in the company of the legendary Joanne  . . . oh, and Dave too. have a nice day, Peter the hem of her garment…the hem of her garment… i weep. wayno

Try amadou, soaks up the tears much better ! TL MC

Response:

[deleted] Bearded, beered and heavily smoked we stopped in to get the latest.

[deleted] Alder or Hickory ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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[deleted] Bearded, beered and heavily smoked we stopped in to get the latest. [deleted] Alder or Hickory ?

I was thinking he meant a bit farther south.  :-~7 Joe F.

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      the hem of her garment…the hem of her garment… i weep. wayno

Such profound depth of feeling! Bill the sympathetic. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

Response:

wayno Such profound depth of feeling! Bill the sympathetic. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

        hell, if you could see the picture, you’d know the fount of the feeling.  :) wayno

Response:

      hell, if you could see the picture, you’d know the fount of the feeling.  :)

I’ll take your word for it, Wayne:-) Bill the trusting. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

Response:

Bill, please come to the ‘clave and meet her.  I know a year’s lead time is a bit much, but there is a spot reserved for you and our other European ROFFers.  ( I know, I know, the United Kingdom is NOT part of Europe.  <g) Dave L.

        and wales is definitely *not* the u.k.  twyll dyn pob sais!         wayno

Response:

wayno and Bill wax poetically: <<wayno Such profound depth of feeling! Bill the sympathetic. — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

        hell, if you could see the picture, you’d know the fount of the feeling.  :) Bill, please come to the ‘clave and meet her.  I know a year’s lead time is a bit much, but there is a spot reserved for you and our other European ROFFers.  ( I know, I know, the United Kingdom is NOT part of Europe.  <g) Dave L.

Response:

Bill, please come to the ‘clave and meet her.  I know a year’s lead time is a bit much, but there is a spot reserved for you and our other European ROFFers.  ( I know, I know, the United Kingdom is NOT part of Europe.  <g) Dave L.       and wales is definitely *not* the u.k.  twyll dyn pob sais!       wayno

Brilliant – right on! — Bill http://www.graigroad.demon.co.uk

Response:

      and wales is definitely *not* the u.k.  twyll dyn pob sais! Brilliant – right on!

Bill,  Do you think our attentive N American friends will have noticed that Wales stuffed USA (53 pts to 24) at Rugby the other day..?  And Canada 33 pts to 19 the week before?  :-) "What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-( — Phil Jones

Response:

"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-(

Rugby is a sport designed by ruffians and played by gentlemen. Football (soccer) is a sport designed by gentlemen and played by ruffians. We have excellent club Rugby here at the UI. Most of the team is quite rugged and quite happily gay. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-

A great game I used to play a hundred pounds and twenty years ago. Down in NW Florida, my team stunk as did I but the four years I played the game were the years I were in the best physical condition of my life and got quite a few dates afterwards with the lovely southern belles who came to watch us. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

Phil Jones writes:

<<"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-( Rugby?  Isn’t that a shirt company.  You, know, Rugby Shirts.  <g I played it, not too successfully, in the Azores, Portugal back in the early 60’s.  Miserably  rough game introduced to us by a couple of Brit airmen.  After one of the Americans lost a tooth in one of the games, the dental officer insisted we all get fitted with mouth pieces.  That made the Brits *real* happy!  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-(

Tried it in Miami Fl. back in 1971, all 124 lbs. of me.  It was neither the first nor the last time that I involved myself in something I was not equipped for.  I’d like to say it taught me a valuable lesson, but I think not.  Ah well, they say wisdom comes with age.  I am furiously collecting as much age as I can in the hope that I will become a wise man.  Not much luck so far.

Response:

"What’s Rugby?" they’ll probably say…  :-(

Isn’t Rugby that cheap copy of NFL football that they started in Canada?  The one where they all start off with a big group hug and the funky goal posts and rules? Warren

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Question:

Here’s a link that may provide you with the information you’re looking for. http://www.fedflyfishers.org/club_list.html#pa —                                                       -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a fly fishing club in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area with a good percentage of women anglers or a women’s club.  My wife is learning and would like to meet other female ff’s.

Response:

We’ve got you covered!  http://www.halcyon.com/wffn/clubs.htm Nationwide clubs listings (Canada too).

Response:

I am looking for a fly fishing club in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area with a good percentage of women anglers or a women’s club.  My wife is learning and would like to meet other female ff’s.

Response:

Question:

for a beginner’s book on fishing, i would like to list the ten greatest rivers in america and the world. also, what do you think is the best day or week of the year for the angler, and why? i am not interested in publishing your secret spots, so keep it general.

Response:

for a beginner’s book on fishing, i would like to list the ten greatest rivers in america and the world. also, what do you think is the best day or week of the year for the angler, and why? i am not interested in publishing your secret spots, so keep it general.

Hi Here are my suggestions: America – The Bighorn River during the last week of September Sweden – The River Gim near Gimdalen during the second week of June Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

The Madison is Holy Water….

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for a beginner’s book on fishing, i would like to list the ten greatest rivers in america and the world. also, what do you think is the best day or week of the year for the angler, and why? i am not interested in publishing your secret spots, so keep it general. Hi Here are my suggestions: America – The Bighorn River during the last week of September Sweden – The River Gim near Gimdalen during the second week of June Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

I’ll be glad to add a couple from Europe: Austria: Vockla River or the Muir river Slovenia: Krka River (chalkstream) and the Unec (classic spring creek) Mike Hamershock

Response:

for a beginner’s book on fishing, i would like to list the ten greatest rivers in america and the world. also, what do you think is the best day or week of the year for the angler, and why?

1. The West Branch of the Delaware River any week in June. 2. Main stem of the Delaware River any week in June.  June for #s 1 & 2 mostly because the weather is usually great. Great hatches from May thru July. 3. Oak Orchard Creek (Albion, NY) for fat Lake Ontario browns in late-October/early-November. Happy Holiday’s from Picture Town, Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – for a beginner’s book on fishing, i would like to list the ten greatest rivers in america and the world. also, what do you think is the best day or week of the year for the angler, and why? i am not interested in publishing your secret spots, so keep it general. Hi Here are my suggestions: America – The Bighorn River during the last week of September Sweden – The River Gim near Gimdalen during the second week of June Good luck. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html I’ll be glad to add a couple from Europe: Austria: Vockla River or the Muir river Slovenia: Krka River (chalkstream) and the Unec (classic spring creek) Mike Hamershock

and add the Gail in ustria and the Traun in Germany           al lasher

Response:

The Madison is Holy Water….

Unfortunately the Madison is holy out of rainbows.   Perhaps not entirely deserving top 10 rating, but with a few points added for Geographic Diversity (i.e. its not in Montana), the West Branch of the Delaware or the upper main stem of the Delaware might be included. Phil Holt

Response:

What do you use there during May and June – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Madison is Holy Water….

Response:

What do you use there during May and June The Madison is Holy Water….

 A six once Stone fly  and head gear.   HM

Response:

What do you use [on the Madison] during May and June[?]

Start with your basic Flood Insurance.   Delurked since 1986  Certified Geek compiled using Code 2.1  (7/17/1994)   L 3 E— k+++—- W— M !V -po+(!po) Y+ t– !5 j+ R G’ !tv(!tv)          "sometimes there just aren’t enough rocks." -forrest gump

Response:

How about the Traun river upstream from the town of Gmunden in Austria second week in September…Yowza

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Question:

Hi folks, After many years of letting my old fly rod sit in the closet I’ve got this urge to go out and do some fishing again. Wondering if anyone has any reccomendations for any spots to try within a couple of driving hours of the Chicago area for panfish and trout? Thanks! Mark Lakomski Hoffman Estates, IL

Response:

: Hi folks, : After many years of letting my old fly rod sit in the closet I’ve : got this urge to go out and do some fishing again. Wondering if : anyone has any reccomendations for any spots to try within a couple : of driving hours of the Chicago area for panfish and trout? Thanks! : Mark Lakomski : Hoffman Estates, IL Well, i’d suggest checking out the site listed below. Most likely there is a lake within 15 minutes of you that you can fish for panfish.       Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page:  http://www.ripco.com/~jwn/

Response:

Mark, Get a copy of American Angler July/Aug’96. The article on pg 43 is "KANKAKEE smallmouths" –  Blur-ribbon smallmouth fishing an hour from Chicago!! Good fishing Dennis

Response:

Get a copy of American Angler July/Aug’96. The article on pg 43 is "KANKAKEE smallmouths" –  Blur-ribbon smallmouth fishing an hour from                            ^^^^ Chicago!! Good fishing

Sometimes typos are revealing.  I just moved to the Chicago area from Portland, OR.  Saw the article before I came.  Don’t think you can hit the Kankakee and start nailing them.  It’s a big river, as I soon found out.   People in flyshops here are telling me that it’s a good idea to hire a guide to find fish the first time or two, and I believe them.  (Not that I’m going to.)  I’ve decided to spend some time, instead, exploring the Fox, which is a lot closer and has fair numbers of fish.  The day I went to the Kankakee recently, it was choked with bait fisherman, and *nobody* was catching–even though the river was supposed to be fishing hot.  Maybe you can dial it in over time, and it’s supposed to have bigger fish than the Fox, but it sure as hell didn’t look like the "Shangri La" it was depicted as in the article. (I’m obviously not dealing well with my relocation…) David

Response:

David, I’ve had the same problem on the Kankakee.  Where are you finshing on the Fox?  I’m also new to the area, so any help will be appreciated. Bob McAnulty – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Get a copy of American Angler July/Aug’96. The article on pg 43 is "KANKAKEE smallmouths" –  Blur-ribbon smallmouth fishing an hour from                            ^^^^ Chicago!! Good fishing Sometimes typos are revealing.  I just moved to the Chicago area from Portland, OR.  Saw the article before I came.  Don’t think you can hit the Kankakee and start nailing them.  It’s a big river, as I soon found out.   People in flyshops here are telling me that it’s a good idea to hire a guide to find fish the first time or two, and I believe them.  (Not that I’m going to.)  I’ve decided to spend some time, instead, exploring the Fox, which is a lot closer and has fair numbers of fish.  The day I went to the Kankakee recently, it was choked with bait fisherman, and *nobody* was catching–even though the river was supposed to be fishing hot.  Maybe you can dial it in over time, and it’s supposed to have bigger fish than the Fox, but it sure as hell didn’t look like the "Shangri La" it was depicted as in the article. (I’m obviously not dealing well with my relocation…) David

Response:

For a change of pace grab your fly rod (or spinning rod) and try fishing some of our other offerings in the Chicagoland area. The great lakes tributaries to Lake Michigan have excellent spawning runs for the following fish Chinook (King) Salmon Brown Trout (German) Coho Salmon Skamania Trout (Steelhead) Chambers Creek Trout (Steelhead) Ganaraska Trout (Steelhead) Just to name a few. Try the following rivers all within  1-3 hours from Chicago Wisconsin: Root River Milwaukee River Oak Creek Indiana: Trail Creek Salt Creek Michigan St. Joe River Black River Kalamazoo River Muskeegon River Cedar Creek White River The best fishing is a bit further in Michigan, and some of the best water in the nation Pere Marquete Little Manistee Big Manistee Baldwin River The Platte The Betsie In my opinion, you cann’t go wrong in Michigan. Tighten ‘em up, then release them. Tom Steele

Response:

You mention possibly switching your interests to the Fox. It is excellent for smallmouth and other species. One of the very good, and well versed, sources for information on fly fishing this stream is Riverside Sports in Geneva.  The person to contact there is Tom Cebula who is only there on the weekends.  Others can give you excellent info on the river in general but Tom fly fishes it extensively and runs their fly fishing department. It is a full line shop and nice depth on the warm water stuff as well as trout/salmon. Their number is 630-232-7047. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Get a copy of American Angler July/Aug’96. The article on pg 43 is "KANKAKEE smallmouths" –  Blur-ribbon smallmouth fishing an hour from                       ^^^^ Chicago!! Good fishing Sometimes typos are revealing.  I just moved to the Chicago area from Portland, OR.  Saw the article before I came.  Don’t think you can hit the Kankakee and start nailing them.  It’s a big river, as I soon found out.   People in flyshops here are telling me that it’s a good idea to hire a guide to find fish the first time or two, and I believe them.  (Not that I’m going to.)  I’ve decided to spend some time, instead, exploring the Fox, which is a lot closer and has fair numbers of fish.  The day I went to the Kankakee recently, it was choked with bait fisherman, and *nobody* was catching–even though the river was supposed to be fishing hot.  Maybe you can dial it in over time, and it’s supposed to have bigger fish than the Fox, but it sure as hell didn’t look like the "Shangri La" it was depicted as in the article. (I’m obviously not dealing well with my relocation…) David

         Trent Roberson            Rx F Fish  For Your Good Health, Fly Fish URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

Question:

  I am from the Hartford ,CT. area and do most of my fishing either on the CT./RI. line out of the Pawcatuck River where I launch my boat and fish the Watch Hill,RI. area., or near the mouth of the CT. River in Old Saybrook,CT. where I have another residence to go to but I would like some pointers on where to go (with or without  the  boat) on the western Sound because of the late season world class Striper fishery to be found there. My preference is fly fishing but I also do some three waying,trolling and bait drifting.               Thanks;                                                 Glen

Response:

I grew up fishing the Greenwich shoreline, which offers excellent casting opportunities.  The stretch from the mouth of the Mianus River, including Goose, Bluff and Diving Islands, all the way to Greenwich harbor is particularly "prime."  Best tide:  Half tide falling.  Second choice: Half tide rising.  A trout fisherman would feel quite at home in the river mouth/island areas, as striped bass position themselves behind boulders, islands, points, etc. and wait for bait to be swept toward them by the current (tide).  There is a large fly fishing community in this area. Greenwich Cove area also is good–usually for smaller fish.  Here, it is a sod bank/quiet water environment.  Best tide:  3 hours either side of high.

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Question:

Hey all you whaco thread spinners, listen up.  Tired of all the crap floating around in this news group? Well so am I!   Lets begin the FlyTiers Corner.  It will be dedicated to those of us who are equally as enthused, maybe more, about our tying as our fishing.   It appears that a Fly Tying NG is not the answer at this time.  There should be enough interest to make FTC a success. One really great thing about the angling aspect of this sport is the willingness of most participants to share their knowledge and skills.  I find that to be more so in the tying end. Let’s give it a whack and see what happens.  Share your patterns, tips, techniques, sources (maybe) and ideas with the rest of us fanatic tyers. YOU WILL NEED TO GIVE TO RECEIVE. Hi-Vis Wing Material, Manufacturer – L&L Products – I first saw this stuff in National Feather Craft catalog several years and sent for a few bags. It is available in just about every imaginable color but I find that most of my work is with white, light dun and med. dun.  I tie hundreds of dz of parachutes and mayfly spinners per year and this material wonderful.  It is very light in weight, holds its color, has just the right stiffness, and is very visible.  Try it on a Adams Para and you will never go back to cafl body. Yippi tie one on, AuSable1

Response:

Let’s give it a whack and see what happens.  Share your patterns, tips, techniques, sources (maybe) and ideas with the rest of us fanatic tyers. YOU WILL NEED TO GIVE TO RECEIVE.

OK. I have created a website for flytyers entitled "WWW Fly Tyer". It is not fully finished, but I feel there is enough content there to at least warrant a look. Check back as it will continue to improve from here. http://www.ns.net/~barnard Enjoy…Alan. PS – Don’t forget to sign the guestbook!   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, Ca.   WWW Fly Tyer:   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey all you whaco thread spinners, listen up.  Tired of all the crap floating around in this news group? Well so am I!   Lets begin the FlyTiers Corner.  It will be dedicated to those of us who are equally as enthused, maybe more, about our tying as our fishing.   It appears that a Fly Tying NG is not the answer at this time.  There should be enough interest to make FTC a success. One really great thing about the angling aspect of this sport is the willingness of most participants to share their knowledge and skills.  I find that to be more so in the tying end. Let’s give it a whack and see what happens.  Share your patterns, tips, techniques, sources (maybe) and ideas with the rest of us fanatic tyers. YOU WILL NEED TO GIVE TO RECEIVE. Hi-Vis Wing Material, Manufacturer – L&L Products – I first saw this stuff in National Feather Craft catalog several years and sent for a few bags. It is available in just about every imaginable color but I find that most of my work is with white, light dun and med. dun.  I tie hundreds of dz of parachutes and mayfly spinners per year and this material wonderful.  It is very light in weight, holds its color, has just the right stiffness, and is very visible.  Try it on a Adams Para and you will never go back to cafl body. Yippi tie one on, AuSable1

Shut-up, form your new group & get out Life’s a fish, then you fry…..                      …     .—.     _…                  (  _. _.-’                   ____          ~~’                       …-’

Question:

thanks for your leader info. Thanks for your information. I worked this out a little better since i last posted. I have a 12 wght also, and a beefy battenkill reel that has yet to sing. I took the mono off the front of the s-head, and left a foot long butt of mono on it with a perfection loop. I practiced delivering 3/0 deceivers on a commercial Scientific A’s tapered leader. A 9′ 12 lb test worked great. Now I think I am going to take the mono off the back of the 30 s-head and go with some floating or intermediate line that won’t tangle in my dish bucket If the dish bucket hoses again with real line……I will glue in "finger"s in the bottom of the bucket. I live in northern california, but am headed back to mom’s in south jersey in 2 weeks, a 52 lber was caught in Holgate last week in the surf. What kind of strip and retrieve are you doing? Have you seen the Jeff Mancini video? Are you making your own epoxy poppers?? Steve in Santa Cruz

Response:

writes: I live in northern california, but am headed back to mom’s in south jersey in 2 weeks, a 52 lber was caught in Holgate last week in the surf.

we’ll make arrangments to meet on the surf. That 52 lber sure got my attention quick. What kind of strip and retrieve are you doing?

I had been doing a one handed strip all the time until I got a tip from Darren Lew (see earlier post on stripping). Today I alternated with a two handed strip and found the hook setting to be much more reliable (and firm). Darren had some interesting points on the additional fly speed and retrieve control of the two handed strip. I still find, however, that a one handed strip provides unmatched jigging action on flies with lots of material to flail in the water (Tabory Snake flies, big Deceivers, rabbit hide strips, etc.). I just got some Martha’s Vinyard Squid Flies from Orvis in the mail today and can’t wait to get ‘em wet in the surf! Have you seen the Jeff Mancini video?

Yup. A buddy brought it over while we were still in the dead of winter here in NY and I’ve been hooked since ;^) I also met the guy during an outdoorsman show in Rockland county back in February. Seems nice, but we didn’t get too much time to talk (he was swarmed by too many glassy eyed folks overcome with excitement in the presence of such an international celebrity 8^). There is a post in this group with his home phone number…. Are you making your own epoxy poppers??

Since I just got started with fly fishing this year, I haven’t accumulated all the toys yet. I figured I’d get some pre-tied first so I couldn’t blame my unsuccessfull outings on bad fly tying. Now that a buddy has shown me how simple some of the saltwater flys are to tie, I’ll be picking up a vice any day now… Look forward to hearing from you! HH&TL,     Jose

Response:

Question:

The house of Rep. in washington is considering a bill to establish a national fishing license, (snip) What do you think about the idea of a national fishing license?

        It will probably do the same thing the Federal commercial drivers license did!  I held a class A license since I was 21, but at $13 a year I could afford it even though I was no longer driving "big rigs".  The "Fed" came in and now the class A in Texas is $40!  I went back to a class c!         There is NO WAY I want the Federal Gov’t involved in "our" fishing, and if you take a look at what the NFWS is doing, you won’t either!!!

Response:

The house of Rep. in washington is considering a bill to establish a national fishing license,  at this point it is only a bill to althorize the study of feasability of a national fishing license ( H.R. 406 ih) to read the actual bill go (http://thomas.loc.gov) do a search on the subject fishing.   At first I was upset at the thought of more goverment fees and regulations in order to enjoy my favort pasttime, but after really reading the bill, it may be a pretty good idea, we will be able to fish more than one state without having to buy out-of-state licenses What do you think about the idea of a national fishing license?

Up until a few years ago we had different licences for different areas in the UK. It’s a lot better now that there is only one license and only slightly more expensive. IMO one of the best things that happened to fishing in the UK. Compuserve:       100520,2042 Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from your friend’s forehead. (Apparently a Chinese proverb)

Response:

: What if the cost of a state license was around $16.25 (N.J. 1995 price) : and the cost of a Federal license were $18.00.

 in your example such a state would get 1/51 of $1.75, less the enormous amount the Federal government would pocket. Faced with a loss of revenue, the management programs such as stocking, would suffer in those places.  I personally would rather pay more, to fish some place good, than pay a little more just to be able to fish in more, mediocre places. As to those people who are not concerned the Federal government wouldn’t siphon off the money, check out Social Security. Last, the Federal government has no authority for creating such a law. Unless it is strictly a tax. If the states want to agree amoung themselves that’s another matter.

Each state would get 1/51 of 18.00 less the siphoned off funds (I would persume) not 1/51 of 1.75  why would the gov give the state 16.25? just because thats what they themselfs charge for a resident license? Most likely what will happen is the Fed gov will take over stocking operations, which will no doubt get mucked up and turn into a SUPERFUND waste.  Even though you say you will pay a little more for a state license in order to get better fishing,  others will not, and will be fishing right along side of you. there will be  no stocking done, the EPA will start screaming about LEAD,  the Attorny General will be screaming about Mercury, in the fish.   of course youll have to buy a saltwater license after that…. Personally I am begining to feel that it is not a good idea for the Gov to get involved within state fishing licenses.  the savings in order to fish in more than one state, does not compair to the costs that will be incurred with headaches.

Response:

: What if the cost of a state license was around $16.25 (N.J. 1995 price) : and the cost of a Federal license were $18.00.

 in your example such a state would get 1/51 of $1.75, less the enormous amount the Federal government would pocket. Faced with a loss of revenue, the management programs such as stocking, would suffer in those places.  I personally would rather pay more, to fish some place good, than pay a little more just to be able to fish in more, mediocre places. As to those people who are not concerned the Federal government wouldn’t siphon off the money, check out Social Security. Last, the Federal government has no authority for creating such a law. Unless it is strictly a tax. If the states want to agree amoung themselves that’s another matter.

Each state would get 1/51 of 18.00 less the siphoned off funds (I would persume) not 1/51 of 1.75  why would the gov give the state 16.25? just because thats what they themselfs charge for a resident license? Most likely what will happen is the Fed gov will take over stocking operations, which will no doubt get mucked up and turn into a SUPERFUND waste.  Even though you say you will pay a little more for a state license in order to get better fishing,  others will not, and will be fishing right along side of you. there will be  no stocking done, the EPA will start screaming about LEAD,  the Attorny General will be screaming about Mercury, in the fish.   of course youll have to buy a saltwater license after that…. Personally I am begining to feel that it is not a good idea for the Gov to get involved within state fishing licenses.  the savings in order to fish in more than one state, does not compair to the costs that will be incurred with headaches.

Response:

Personally I am begining to feel that it is not a good idea for the Gov to get involved within state fishing licenses.  the savings in order to fish in more than one state, does not compair to the costs that will be incurred with headaches.

Is it even legal?  The Constitution gives the federal government power to regulate interstate commerce.  Other powers it reserves for the states.  Is there some sort of precedent for this?  If there is, I’d think they’d want to make a national driver’s license before a national fishing license. | |                                                                       | | | John H. Kim          "Just try telling the IRS you don’t feel like    | | | Keeper of the Fishing FAQ        ftp://tuna.mit.edu/d/pub/fishing/faq |

Response:

Personally I am begining to feel that it is not a good idea for the Gov to get involved within state fishing licenses.  the savings in order to fish in more than one state, does not compair to the costs that will be incurred with headaches. Is it even legal?  The Constitution gives the federal government power to regulate interstate commerce.  Other powers it reserves for the states.  Is there some sort of precedent for this?  If there is, I’d think they’d want to make a national driver’s license before a national fishing license.    John, they did!  It is the federal comercial drivers license (CDL)

and now costs $40 as opposed to the former class a license in Texas, which was $13!  Everything is legal if it’s unopposed!

Response:

The house of Rep. in washington is considering a bill to establish a national fishing license,  at this point it is only a bill to althorize the study of feasability of a national fishing license ( H.R. 406 ih) to read the actual bill go (http://thomas.loc.gov) do a search on the subject fishing.   At first I was upset at the thought of more goverment fees and regulations in order to enjoy my favort pasttime, but after really reading the bill, it may be a pretty good idea, we will be able to fish more than one state without having to buy out-of-state licenses What do you think about the idea of a national fishing license?

Response:

The problem with a national license is that all of the funds that are now generated by individule states for their particular fisheries managment programs would disapear.  

What if the cost of a state license was around $16.25 (N.J. 1995 price) and the cost of a Federal license were $18.00.  would you buy the federal license for a few more dollars and be able to fish anywhere,  or would you buy the state license?   I agree that there is much room for revenue abuse,  but would you make the purchase? Wally

Response:

The house of Rep. in washington is considering a bill to establish a national fishing license,  at this point it is only a bill to althorize really reading the bill, it may be a pretty good idea, we will be able to fish more than one state without having to buy out-of-state licenses What do you think about the idea of a national fishing license?

The problem with a national license is that all of the funds that are now generated by individule states for their particular fisheries managment programs would disapear.  I’m sure that once Washington got ahold of the money it would somehow get diverted to some other use rather than fisheries managment.  Even though it would be nice to be able to fish anywhere with only one license, I think that this is a bad idea. MHO Bryan Stafford

Response:

: The problem with a national license is that all of the funds that are : now : generated by individule states for their particular fisheries managment : programs would disapear.   : What if the cost of a state license was around $16.25 (N.J. 1995 price) : and the cost of a Federal license were $18.00.  would you buy the federal : license for a few more dollars and be able to fish anywhere,  or would : you buy the state license?   This overlooks the fact that less populous states with good fishing benefit from the influx of non-resident license dollars. While it might save you some bucks, in your example such a state would get 1/51 of $1.75, less the enormous amount the Federal government would pocket. Faced with a loss of revenue, the management programs such as stocking, would suffer in those places.  I personally would rather pay more, to fish some place good, than pay a little more just to be able to fish in more, mediocre places. As to those people who are not concerned the Federal government wouldn’t siphon off the money, check out Social Security. Last, the Federal government has no authority for creating such a law. Unless it is strictly a tax. If the states want to agree amoung themselves that’s another matter.

Response:

       It will probably do the same thing the Federal commercial drivers license did!  I held a class A license since I was 21, but at $13 a year I could afford it even though I was no longer driving "big rigs".  The "Fed" came in and now the class A in Texas is $40!  I went back to a class c!        There is NO WAY I want the Federal Gov’t involved in "our" fishing, and if you take a look at what the NFWS is doing, you won’t either!!!

The way the bill reads ( H.R. 406) is that the Federal license would not replace the state license,  it would be available as an alternive. you could still opt to purchase the state license and fish only within the state,  or you could buy the Federal license and fish in any state.  also you would need to buy any additional spieces stamps that the state you wanted to fish in imposed, if you were going to fish for that spieces or in waters that were stocked with that spieces ( in N.J. you need to buy a trout stamp to fish for trout,   it costs about 8.75 and looks like a postage stamp,  you affix it to your license)

Response: