Question:

It sounds like that fish needed to be caught like he needed a hole in his head!!! ARG… Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This summer, I either caught or witnessed being caught the same fish 7 different times from the same pool, once each on 7 different fishing trips. The trout had a very unique circular hole in its head, looked like it had been pecked at by a heron. Every visit I made to that pool, either on my own, with a friend, or with a client, resulted in that same fish getting caught. Tim Lysyk timlysyk at telus dot net

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<SNIP. Now the real dilemma. What to do with a dead fish right in front of our campsite knowing that there’s a griz in the area. I slid it back into the water and had a sleepless night.

Its only a dead fish.  There are a lot of other reasons for sleepless nights. Few of them have to do with fish. TL MC

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I don’t have a story to add, but I wanted to write-in to say that this is a darned interesting thread. Keep them coming. Memphis Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly? one that always amuses me, and provides fond memories, is a brookie that was taken on up high on the spine of grandfather mountain, up high on boone’s fork… a few years ago… i approached the curvaceous body with eager anticipation. every nerve on edge, every move forsaken, every breath…. well, bated. the body of my desire being that of waterworn, finely sanded granite, obviously the design of a female god…. hence the sexuality….. and obviously, the desire to fondle the trout that lay at the artistic granitic turn in the clear pristine waters beneath the ever-present, prevalent growth of rhododendron. a few here at roff have fished this forlorn yet gorgeous pool…. i have taken them there…. i digress… the cast was adequate. the tippet turned over to present the fly. it stuck….. adhered in a spider’s web strung between some low-riding rhodo branches….  the fly dangling about six inches above the surface of the crisp cool mountain water. shit. i’m flummoxed as to how to loosen the fly without spooking the fish i just know is residing below. i try a soft twitch of my rod, transmitting a soft and gentle energy via the line to the leader, through the hewn tippet knots, onward, ever so craftily to the tippet. the fly sveltely dances, as it precariously dangles from the web…. but does not dislodge. whoosh…. sweet baby jesus…. a take. the brookie has leapt from the depths like a submarine launched missile and taken the fly. once hooked, the darling was brought to hand rather easily, as he was shy of a foot by a few inches. i have never caught a trout like that again, but whenever i see a spider web spun close to the water, i try to recreate the –waldo

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While the legal requirement to return a mortally wounded fish if it’s undersized, or caught in a C&R area, or otherwise "illegal" to keep seems nonsensical at first, but the reason is logical and actually rather obvious. Without the requirement, it would be impossible to enforce the regulations. Also, like Ken and and Jim point out, it also doesn’t do any great harm (although I’m pretty sure Tbone is extremely offended by the practice). I will very occasionally keep a doomed fish caught in C&R waters, but only when I’m damned sure I won’t be caught with it. It does feel somehow ethically wrong to release it, even if it’s legally right.

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  I’ve thought about this a bit since it happened. My first thought was   that it’s pretty damn silly to "waste" a fish that’s already dead   regardless of Park regulations to the contrary. Why not just fry it up   and eat it, especially since putting it back could be considered tempting   fate in grizzly country. But I’ve come around to the position that   considering ME not eating the fish to be the equivalent of "wasting" the   fish is wrongheaded. There are many organisms, from the microscopic to the   aforementioned griz that would consider that carcass a feast. I did the   right thing.   For me, it’s a tough call. Fish dying and returning to the ecosystem is how they evolved, but not returning fish that were killed by angling. I think it’s a weakness of C&R regulation. I think you should keep and eat a fish that’s badly hooked, but like RW said, if that were allowed the regulation would be unenforceable. Willi

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My wife and I fished with a guide in Maine last year. We both made it clear that we were C&R only – something the guide practiced as well. My wife hooked a 10" Brookie as we sailed through some white water. No way to stop, we could only drag the fish behind us. By the time we were through, the rapids had gotten the best of the little Brookie (that and the fact that the fish had taken the fly very deeply for some reason). Then the debate was on – do we keep the little guy (he was under the size limit as I recall) illegally and at least he serves some purpose, or put him back to float down stream. Decided quickly to return him to the ecology. Plenty of things feasted on him. Never regreted it a bit. Course, not the same as a 22" Cutty, but I don’t believe it would have changed my decision. I’m with you Ken. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … What to do with a dead fish … Shoulda kept it in your tent. Unethical. I’ve thought about this a bit since it happened. My first thought was that it’s pretty damn silly to "waste" a fish that’s already dead regardless of Park regulations to the contrary. Why not just fry it up and eat it, especially since putting it back could be considered tempting fate in grizzly country. But I’ve come around to the position that considering ME not eating the fish to be the equivalent of "wasting" the fish is wrongheaded. There are many organisms, from the microscopic to the aforementioned griz that would consider that carcass a feast. I did the right thing. — Ken Fortenberry

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… What to do with a dead fish … Shoulda kept it in your tent.

Unethical. I’ve thought about this a bit since it happened. My first thought was that it’s pretty damn silly to "waste" a fish that’s already dead regardless of Park regulations to the contrary. Why not just fry it up and eat it, especially since putting it back could be considered tempting fate in grizzly country. But I’ve come around to the position that considering ME not eating the fish to be the equivalent of "wasting" the fish is wrongheaded. There are many organisms, from the microscopic to the aforementioned griz that would consider that carcass a feast. I did the right thing. — Ken Fortenberry

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Now the real dilemma. What to do with a dead fish right in front of our campsite knowing that there’s a griz in the area. I slid it back into the water and had a sleepless night.

Shoulda kept it in your tent.

Response:

recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly? …

Slough Creek circa 1980 something, I caught a 22" cutthroat and when I brought it to hand the hopper was impaled on the OUTSIDE of the gill plate. I went to pluck it off only to realize that the fish had inhaled the hopper. The fly had gone in its mouth, out the gills, and then attached itself to the outside. Needless to say, when I plucked at the fly the tippet, which was still in the fishes mouth, sliced through the gills. A bloody mess and I knew I had a dead fish on my hands. My wife, who is normally off doing photography while I fish, was looking on because she was afraid to get off by herself. The rangers had warned us about a female griz in the area. I had to sheepishly admit that I’d killed the fish despite my rather pompous pontificating about C&R around the campfire the night before. Now the real dilemma. What to do with a dead fish right in front of our campsite knowing that there’s a griz in the area. I slid it back into the water and had a sleepless night. — Ken Fortenberry

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recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Almost caught…. I was fishing on the N.F. Clearwater below Kelly Forks, casting across a deep pool to a little riff, up comes a 6 inch rainbow. I started pulling the little guy toward me and it dove down about 10 feet away, all of the sudden this 6 inch rainbow was stripping line off my reel. I fought the fish for a few minutes and got it within sight. A bull trout had latched onto the side of the rainbow, I pulled the two fish up and tried to net them, as I went down with the net and the bull trout let go. I stood there with a puzzled look on my face explaining the story to my friend down the way. During out conversation the 6 inch trout was up at the surface swimming around, once again the bull trout came back and latched on. I fought the pair, this time almost netting the fish. Wish I had, the bull trout looked to be in the 25 inch range. I release the rainbow, he seemed to be okay despite the teeth marks in his side. I had read a similar story however, never thought I would experience it first hand.

Had a customer hook a 14" cutthroat on the Blackfoot once. As he was bringing it in a very large pike took the trout and held on for a good ten minutes. We worked him into an eddy but couldn’t even begin to get him even half into the net (which will hold fish in the 18" to 22" range without difficulty). He finally let go after several attempts just to scoop him up onto the bank. We didn’t want to scoop him into the inflatable raft we were drifting in. The trout was trashed but, due to catch-and-release regs, we had to release it. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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This summer, I either caught or witnessed being caught the same fish 7 different times from the same pool, once each on 7 different fishing trips. The trout had a very unique circular hole in its head, looked like it had been pecked at by a heron. Every visit I made to that pool, either on my own, with a friend, or with a client, resulted in that same fish getting caught. Tim Lysyk timlysyk at telus dot net

Response:

— Fly fishing is the most fun you can have … standing up.   Greg

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly? one that always amuses me, and provides fond memories, is a brookie that was taken on up high on the spine of grandfather mountain, up high on boone’s fork… a few years ago… i approached the curvaceous body with eager anticipation. every nerve on edge, every move forsaken, every breath…. well, bated. the body of my desire being that of waterworn, finely sanded granite, obviously the design of a female god…. hence the sexuality….. and obviously, the desire to fondle the trout that lay at the artistic granitic turn in the clear pristine waters beneath the ever-present, prevalent growth of rhododendron. a few here at roff have fished this forlorn yet gorgeous pool…. i have taken them there…. i digress… the cast was adequate. the tippet turned over to present the fly. it stuck….. adhered in a spider’s web strung between some low-riding rhodo branches….  the fly dangling about six inches above the surface of the crisp cool mountain water. shit. i’m flummoxed as to how to loosen the fly without spooking the fish i just know is residing below. i try a soft twitch of my rod, transmitting a soft and gentle energy via the line to the leader, through the hewn tippet knots, onward, ever so craftily to the tippet. the fly sveltely dances, as it precariously dangles from the web…. but does not dislodge. whoosh…. sweet baby jesus…. a take. the brookie has leapt from the depths like a submarine launched missile and taken the fly. once hooked, the darling was brought to hand rather easily, as he was shy of a foot by a few inches. i have never caught a trout like that again, but whenever i see a spider web spun close to the water, i try to recreate the –waldo

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is that what they call guiness out yer way? ;^) –waldo

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snip< i have never caught a trout like that again, but whenever i see a spider web spun close to the water, i try to recreate the

You recreated the scene nicely IMHO.  :-) Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly? one that always amuses me, and provides fond memories, is a brookie that was taken on up high on the spine of grandfather mountain, up high on boone’s fork… a few years ago… i approached the curvaceous body with eager anticipation. every nerve on edge, every move forsaken, every breath…. well, bated. the body of my desire being that of waterworn, finely sanded granite, obviously the design of a female god…. hence the sexuality….. and obviously, the desire to fondle the trout that lay at the artistic granitic turn in the clear pristine waters beneath the ever-present, prevalent growth of rhododendron. a few here at roff have fished this forlorn yet gorgeous pool…. i have taken them there…. i digress… the cast was adequate. the tippet turned over to present the fly. it stuck….. adhered in a spider’s web strung between some low-riding rhodo branches….  the fly dangling about six inches above the surface of the crisp cool mountain water. shit. i’m flummoxed as to how to loosen the fly without spooking the fish i just know is residing below. i try a soft twitch of my rod, transmitting a soft and gentle energy via the line to the leader, through the hewn tippet knots, onward, ever so craftily to the tippet. the fly sveltely dances, as it precariously dangles from the web…. but does not dislodge. whoosh…. sweet baby jesus…. a take. the brookie has leapt from the depths like a submarine launched missile and taken the fly. once hooked, the darling was brought to hand rather easily, as he was shy of a foot by a few inches. i have never caught a trout like that again, but whenever i see a spider web spun close to the water, i try to recreate the –waldo

This shouldn’t count, but I was fishing a sulfur nymph, and got caught on bottom.  When I checked the hook after I got it unstuck, there was a natural sulfur nymph nicely threaded on the hook — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

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I also caught the same fish that previously broke off but it wasn’t a trout but a pike.  I was fishing for trout though.  I got my fly back  when I caught the pike again. Next best one is my son caught a fish (cutthroat)  that was attached to a bait fisherman’s bobber (without the bait fisherman) that was swimming around the lake.  He used his fly rod to snag the bobber and bring the fish in. Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – about a 15 inch pod Bow at Silver Creek He ate the exact same pattern I had broken off in his mouth about 5, no more than 10 minutes earlier … the fly was still there and a unique pattern, so I’m sure it was the same fish. I was very surprised that he was still feeding, let alone that he would take the same fly … he broke off after a decent fight, and I figured he was sulking somewhere.. Ditto, a small brown on the Onion just outside Sheboygan, WI.  Took a Pass Lake and broke me off under a bridge just as we started fishing. Coming back an hour and a half later, I got my fly back. Stranger still (though by no means all that rare….in some waters anyway) are the brookies that pounce from the sky.  DAMNED hard to get used to! Wolfgang

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Very detailed writing….ever consider writing for Penthouse?  :) The weirdest thing I’ve caught with a fly is,… well…, my brother. Double weird, considering he is a major league entaphobic.  "It kinda makes it worse when you keep slapping the damn thing like it is alive." Twice on the same lake I caught two bass on a bait with two treble hooks. And once, on the same lake, I caught a bass by it being "lipped" between the split ring of the lure and the lure’s diving lip. Scott

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly? one that always amuses me, and provides fond memories, is a brookie that was taken on up high on the spine of grandfather mountain, up high on boone’s fork… a few years ago… i approached the curvaceous body with eager anticipation. every nerve on edge, every move forsaken, every breath…. well, bated. the body of my desire being that of waterworn, finely sanded granite, obviously the design of a female god…. hence the sexuality….. and obviously, the desire to fondle the trout that lay at the artistic granitic turn in the clear pristine waters beneath the ever-present, prevalent growth of rhododendron. a few here at roff have fished this forlorn yet gorgeous pool…. i have taken them there…. i digress… the cast was adequate. the tippet turned over to present the fly. it stuck….. adhered in a spider’s web strung between some low-riding rhodo branches….  the fly dangling about six inches above the surface of the crisp cool mountain water. shit. i’m flummoxed as to how to loosen the fly without spooking the fish i just know is residing below. i try a soft twitch of my rod, transmitting a soft and gentle energy via the line to the leader, through the hewn tippet knots, onward, ever so craftily to the tippet. the fly sveltely dances, as it precariously dangles from the web…. but does not dislodge. whoosh…. sweet baby jesus…. a take. the brookie has leapt from the depths like a submarine launched missile and taken the fly. once hooked, the darling was brought to hand rather easily, as he was shy of a foot by a few inches. i have never caught a trout like that again, but whenever i see a spider web spun close to the water, i try to recreate the –waldo

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Almost caught…. I was fishing on the N.F. Clearwater below Kelly Forks, casting across a deep pool to a little riff, up comes a 6 inch rainbow. I started pulling the little guy toward me and it dove down about 10 feet away, all of the sudden this 6 inch rainbow was stripping line off my reel. I fought the fish for a few minutes and got it within sight. A bull trout had latched onto the side of the rainbow, I pulled the two fish up and tried to net them, as I went down with the net and the bull trout let go. I stood there with a puzzled look on my face explaining the story to my friend down the way. During out conversation the 6 inch trout was up at the surface swimming around, once again the bull trout came back and latched on. I fought the pair, this time almost netting the fish. Wish I had, the bull trout looked to be in the 25 inch range. I release the rainbow, he seemed to be okay despite the teeth marks in his side. I had read a similar story however, never thought I would experience it first hand. JRT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly? one that always amuses me, and provides fond memories, is a brookie that was taken on up high on the spine of grandfather mountain, up high on boone’s fork… a few years ago… i approached the curvaceous body with eager anticipation. every nerve on edge, every move forsaken, every breath…. well, bated. the body of my desire being that of waterworn, finely sanded granite, obviously the design of a female god…. hence the sexuality….. and obviously, the desire to fondle the trout that lay at the artistic granitic turn in the clear pristine waters beneath the ever-present, prevalent growth of rhododendron. a few here at roff have fished this forlorn yet gorgeous pool…. i have taken them there…. i digress… the cast was adequate. the tippet turned over to present the fly. it stuck….. adhered in a spider’s web strung between some low-riding rhodo branches….  the fly dangling about six inches above the surface of the crisp cool mountain water. shit. i’m flummoxed as to how to loosen the fly without spooking the fish i just know is residing below. i try a soft twitch of my rod, transmitting a soft and gentle energy via the line to the leader, through the hewn tippet knots, onward, ever so craftily to the tippet. the fly sveltely dances, as it precariously dangles from the web…. but does not dislodge. whoosh…. sweet baby jesus…. a take. the brookie has leapt from the depths like a submarine launched missile and taken the fly. once hooked, the darling was brought to hand rather easily, as he was shy of a foot by a few inches. i have never caught a trout like that again, but whenever i see a spider web spun close to the water, i try to recreate the –waldo

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recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly?

Walt, The weirdest trout I ever caught was a pike  =) To make short sentence, like the above, a bit longer story: I had noticed a feeding trout picking spent spinners on the neck of a riffle for about five minutes. This was in Savar Creek outside Umea in northern Sweden. After seing the trout rise for its fifth or sixth time I decided to give it a try. The trout looked as if it could be of some nicer size and I did everything I could to get it right. After a diagonal downstream cast with a reach mend I saw the fish rise and take my fly. I striked and felt a heavy weight at the end of my line. To my surprise the initial rush that so often comes when hooking trout was totally absent. I called out to my friend Fred that I had hooked a relly nice trout, but that it was acting a bit strange. Fred, who of course got interested, hurried over to watch the fight. I shouldn’t have called out to him……he makes me eat my words every now and then, and if I actually do hook a trout he usually makes remarks about a lb3 pike ( /Roger

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recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly? one that always amuses me, and provides fond memories, is a brookie that was taken on up high on the spine of grandfather mountain, up high on boone’s fork… a few years ago… i approached the curvaceous body with eager anticipation. every nerve on edge, every move forsaken, every breath…. well, bated. the body of my desire being that of waterworn, finely sanded granite, obviously the design of a female god…. hence the sexuality….. and obviously, the desire to fondle the trout that lay at the artistic granitic turn in the clear pristine waters beneath the ever-present, prevalent growth of rhododendron. a few here at roff have fished this forlorn yet gorgeous pool…. i have taken them there…. i digress… the cast was adequate. the tippet turned over to present the fly. it stuck….. adhered in a spider’s web strung between some low-riding rhodo branches….  the fly dangling about six inches above the surface of the crisp cool mountain water. shit. i’m flummoxed as to how to loosen the fly without spooking the fish i just know is residing below. i try a soft twitch of my rod, transmitting a soft and gentle energy via the line to the leader, through the hewn tippet knots, onward, ever so craftily to the tippet. the fly sveltely dances, as it precariously dangles from the web…. but does not dislodge. whoosh…. sweet baby jesus…. a take. the brookie has leapt from the depths like a submarine launched missile and taken the fly. once hooked, the darling was brought to hand rather easily, as he was shy of a foot by a few inches. i have never caught a trout like that again, but whenever i see a spider web spun close to the water, i try to recreate the –waldo

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recent threads…. [slightly disturbing scenic snipped] i digress… the cast was adequate. the tippet turned over to present the fly. it stuck….. adhered in a spider’s web strung between some low-riding rhodo branches….  the fly dangling about six inches above the surface of the crisp cool mountain water.

A nymph under a Royal Wulff, a backwater edged with grassy tussocks, the flys just beyond one in the water one over it, a fish rose to the Wulff missed, landed on the tippett with the nymph dropper, flipped the nymph over its back and caught the tippett in the bend. This noose tightened on the fish behind the pecs and in front of the dorsal. My first and probably last lassooed fish – don’t do droppers much now. Steve (Look ma! no hands!)

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about a 15 inch pod Bow at Silver Creek He ate the exact same pattern I had broken off in his mouth about 5, no more than 10 minutes earlier … the fly was still there and a unique pattern, so I’m sure it was the same fish. I was very surprised that he was still feeding, let alone that he would take the same fly … he broke off after a decent fight, and I figured he was sulking somewhere.. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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about a 15 inch pod Bow at Silver Creek He ate the exact same pattern I had broken off in his mouth about 5, no more than 10 minutes earlier … the fly was still there and a unique pattern, so I’m sure it was the same fish. I was very surprised that he was still feeding, let alone that he would take the same fly … he broke off after a decent fight, and I figured he was sulking somewhere..

Ditto, a small brown on the Onion just outside Sheboygan, WI.  Took a Pass Lake and broke me off under a bridge just as we started fishing. Coming back an hour and a half later, I got my fly back. Stranger still (though by no means all that rare….in some waters anyway) are the brookies that pounce from the sky.  DAMNED hard to get used to! Wolfgang

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anyway) are the brookies that pounce from the sky.  DAMNED hard to get used to! Wolfgang

dang …not a trout …but was a fly trying to shoot a small hair Bass bug under a bush tight to the bank I missed and the bug hung up in the bush … I fiddled and fiddled trying to get it loose.  It was "weedless" and I moved it from limb to limb.  It was a good foot out of the water …. when a Bass came out and grabbed it <g not a big Bass but it made me shout and whoop ( and I hate it when guys shout when they hookup, very annoying   —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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recent threads…. what is the strangest, perhaps the weirdest trout you have caught on the fly?

a few The Greediest – on Snowbird using the NC dry, dropper, I had a nice brookie on the dry and as I lift and reach for him, he wiggles off the dry, drops into the water only to be lifted back out by the dropper stuck firmly inside his jaw.  The greedy little bugger had taken the dropper on the way up to the dry. The Ugliest – A brown on Penns of about 14" whose lower jaw had been broken at the point early in its life and it had grown into an "X". The Best Jumper – A baby steelie of about 8" that I noticed jumping and taking mayflies on the wing.  I stood upstream and upwind of him, letting the dry bounce around in the wind – he leapt clean out of the water and took it. The Most Persistent – A Grand River brown of about 12" who chased, swirled and missed my mini-brown three times, covering the full width of the pool in his chase, only to be hooked on his fourth lunge. The Fastest – That JATO equipped steelie at Altmar. No sex in the pool though.   Damn southern guys get all the sexy pools.  :( Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

Anyone who know about a really good book about Clasic Salmonflies? Ole A Andreassen http://www.flyfishing-illustrated.com

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If you really want the classic book Try Geoge M. Kelson "The salmon fly" Dr T.E. Pryce, Tannatt "How to dress salmon flies Francis Francis "Book on angling" J.H. Hale "how to tie salmon flies William Blacker "The art of fly making" If you want more recent books on classic fly try Radencich Mikael Frodin Joseph Bates Ken Sawada Judith Dunham Paul Schmookler Poul Jorgensen Hope this help! Robert Mayrand – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Organization: Nextra Public Access Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Anyone who know about a really good book about Clasic Salmonflies? Ole A Andreassen http://www.flyfishing-illustrated.com

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Question:

Our Sir Louie goes by many handles but he just acquied a new one today – "Captain Carp."  We *were*supposed to be steelhead fishing but carp proved to be a bigger attraction. He caught him on a #12 stonefly at the base of the dam in Caledonia. Peter

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Yes and Joe F. caught a small mouth by the tail while salmon fishing on friday, Opppps oh no it’s a sucker ( 12" sucker ) Vern

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our Sir Louie goes by many handles but he just acquied a new one today – "Captain Carp."  We *were*supposed to be steelhead fishing but carp proved to be a bigger attraction. He caught him on a #12 stonefly at the base of the dam in Caledonia. Peter

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Yes and Joe F. caught a small mouth by the tail while salmon fishing on friday, Opppps oh no it’s a sucker ( 12" sucker )

Yep, it’s true.   Not that I could deny it, since I caught it just updtream of the bridge in front of a dozen witnesses.  (Just don’t start calling me "Captain Sucker".)   Joe F. (Good, now I can leave that out of my trip report.)

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the bridge in front of a dozen witnesses.  (Just don’t start calling me "Captain Sucker".)   Joe F. (Good, now I can leave that out of my trip report.)

Since this won’t be part of the trip report we just hafta ask the questions here! What kinda fly were you using while sucker fishing? Were you sucker fishing down and across, upstream-dead-drift, downstream with a twitching retrieve? What’s a sucker fishing license cost in NY?  Where are the best waters to sucker fish?!  Do you know America’s best sucker fishing rivers? And, lastly, for those who are sure to ask.  What weight sucker fishing rod were you using?  What is the best sucker fishing line? What reel do you recommend for sucker fishing? — Wayne (just helping you to keep it all in one bucket, Joe!) To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Question:

I’m mighty afraid one Frank will be holding on for dear life as a huge smallie heads for the Bay and the other Frank will be up at the camp store and up to no good with Katy! Watch out Frank!  Her husband has a gun….a BIG gun!

    My wife says to go for it either way, crab bait in the bay or human colander.  Sumpin’ about my GI life insurance thats good till the end of the month and the other policies I signed for the new job and house.  Is there a way I can combine the two and go out in a true blaze of glory?     BTW folks, I want to let you know that I will be celebrating this weekend.  I just got my grades in from my Capstone course for my Masters Degree.  Dun aced it.  I now be edumakated.  Will have that sheepskin in January.  But no more studying, just paperwork.  So if you see me late at night by the river projectile chumming, its just an old college tradition.  If its done into a noisy drum set, its an act of God d;)                                  Frank Reid Before you buy.

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Frank, one of the few things at the camp store is ICE! Good chance I’ll be rolling in Saturday evening for some action (smallies not Katy).  I don’t want to get there and find some Frank in my favorite — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

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Congratulations Frank!  Boy, just what we need, another overeducated newbie yuppie in the middle of the river waving a long stick around!! <G — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     My wife says to go for it either way, crab bait in the bay or human colander.  Sumpin’ about my GI life insurance thats good till the end of the month and the other policies I signed for the new job and house.  Is there a way I can combine the two and go out in a true blaze of glory?     BTW folks, I want to let you know that I will be celebrating this weekend.  I just got my grades in from my Capstone course for my Masters Degree.  Dun aced it.  I now be edumakated.  Will have that sheepskin in January.  But no more studying, just paperwork.  So if you see me late at night by the river projectile chumming, its just an old college tradition.  If its done into a noisy drum set, its an act of God d;)                                  Frank Reid

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Your mention of visiting Katy brings rise (no pun intended) to a question of replenishing ice in my 60qt backbreaker cooler…do they got some, and could I get some from Katy (ice!)  In the scenario mentioned below, while I appreciate you even imagining me fooling around with a woman probably 1/3rd my age, I prefer to be the guy hanging on for dear life with the smallie, being drug out to sea.  An ass full of buckshot ain’t the way I wanna go!!  I’d love to go to dinner with you guys Wayne, but if it means not fishing during the best time of the day, on top with poppers or hoppers, I’ll pass.  No offense intended.  Man, I got some viscious looking black RabbitStripFlashers tied up, can’t wait. Frank (only one hole in my butt and I wanna keep it that way) Church

|In article | BTW, I’m in for Saturday night (hooray!).   There will be three of |us: me, | fishin’ buddy (Craig), & BIL(Mike).   Hope to get set up by dark. |Start the | campfire & chill the beer. | | Joe F. | |Will you guys be having dinner after you set-up or on the way in? |Frank and Frank will already be there but I won’t be able to get there |until around 6 pm.  If you’re eating on the way in we can get together |in Fredericksburg.  We might even be able to entice F&F to join us if |we can pry them off the river!  I’m mighty afraid one Frank will be |holding on for dear life as a huge smallie heads for the Bay and the |other Frank will be up at the camp store and up to no good with Katy! |Watch out Frank!  Her husband has a gun….a BIG gun! | |– |Wayne (no need to distinguish between Franks in the preceeding remarks) |To fish is human….To release Divine! | | |Before you buy.

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BTW, I’m in for Saturday night (hooray!).   There will be three of us: me, fishin’ buddy (Craig), & BIL(Mike).   Hope to get set up by dark. Start the campfire & chill the beer. Joe F.

Will you guys be having dinner after you set-up or on the way in? Frank and Frank will already be there but I won’t be able to get there until around 6 pm.  If you’re eating on the way in we can get together in Fredericksburg.  We might even be able to entice F&F to join us if we can pry them off the river!  I’m mighty afraid one Frank will be holding on for dear life as a huge smallie heads for the Bay and the other Frank will be up at the camp store and up to no good with Katy! Watch out Frank!  Her husband has a gun….a BIG gun! — Wayne (no need to distinguish between Franks in the preceeding remarks) To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Will you guys be having dinner after you set-up or on the way in? Frank and Frank will already be there but I won’t be able to get there until around 6 pm.  If you’re eating on the way in we can get together in Fredericksburg.

Hoping to get on the road by 5 p.m. and in the campground by 8.   Dinner in F’burg sounds good; but I’d really like to get set up by dark.   We’ll get there quicker if we just pick up clown food off the Rt 3 exit.   Or, we may pack food to go.   Or, SWMBO may insist on an early dinner w/ family (in which case departure time is wont to slip a bit).   If we make good time getting there, we may be able to grab a bite after setting up, but that’s too last-minute for you to plan dinner around. I’m still pulling it all together with the two guys on this end.   I played the BIL card masterfully, BTW.   It was SWMBO who suggested leaving Saturday (well okay, if you think that’s best <g). I’m psyched. Joe F.

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departure time is wont to slip a bit).   If we make good time getting there, we may be able to grab a bite after setting up, but that’s too last- minute for you to plan dinner around. I’m still pulling it all together with the two guys on this end.   I played the BIL card masterfully, BTW.   It was SWMBO who suggested leaving Saturday (well okay, if you think that’s best <g). I’m psyched. Joe F.

OK!  See you at the campground.  I’m going to try to get over early enough to grab an hour or so on the river with popping bugs.  About an hour or so before you get there, and maybe you will be able to hear the ruckus while you’re setting up, the river should virtually ERUPT with rising small mouth!  Water levels look perfect and conditions should be ideal.  Cool nights, warm days , and with luck a tinge in cloudiness from a thundershower Friday night. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

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Okay, okay…..I’ll make some notes and have the wife quiz me and I’ll learn all the hook names, sizes and numbers…….but I have on occasion tied with – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good to hear that Wayne, didja cut some of that tail off?  I tole you those green monsters ketch smallies!  I *will* shorten the tails on the rest of mine.  BTW, I tied up a couple of monster black rabbit strip jobbies today, will do a few more over the weekend.  Thanks for the report, I’m still pumped!  The animals in question should have no fear since Dave LaCourse won’t be there.  (unless Frank Jr has weird inclinations we don’t know about, yet) ) Frank Church Elkhart, IN I started off |with one of Frank Church’s rabbit fur concoctions (large size) and had 2 |SAVAGE strikes in 2 casts!!  No hook-ups as they were striking short on the |long tail.  I switched to a Murray’s Lead-eyed Hellgrammite and took 5 small |mouth without leaving the same ledge and not walking more than 15 feet. Two |were over 14".  Now, this was in the first 30 minutes of fishing today. For |the rest of this trip report, you’ll have to listen to it at the Great |Rappahannock River Rendevouz August 20!

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The animals in question should have no fear since Dave LaCourse won’t be there.  (unless Frank Jr has weird inclinations we don’t know about, yet) )

      Those inclinations are considered perfectly normal in the area of Los Angeles that I grew up.       Frank, took your fly and tied it in black with a shorter tail on a stinger hook with dumbell eyes.  I kept hearing about hellgrammites and black clousers so I figured your pattern would be awesome used the same way.  We’ll see about it when we get there.      I now have a wading staff.  I went to a local ski shop and they gave me an old banged up ski pole for free.  (okay, I begged a little). I figure the only disadvantage to it is it won’t collapse (but I may).      I’m definately getting psyched for this trip.  See you all there.                   Frank Reid Before you buy.

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Cool Frank…after I sent the post asking Wayne if he shortened the rabbit strip, I thought to tie a stinger hook in tandem and somehow thread it thru the rabbit strip on a piece of 10 lb test line.  Gonna work on it this weekend.  BTW, dusted off the old portable grill and it works just fine…waited a little long to put the match to it after turning on the gas and received a WHOOMP! and a big ball of flame for my stupidity. Lucky I wasn’t leaning over it at the time. :-/ Frank (just call me "no eyebrows") Church

||      Frank, took your fly and tied it in black with a shorter tail on |a stinger hook with dumbell eyes.  I kept hearing about hellgrammites |and black clousers so I figured your pattern would be awesome used the |same way.  We’ll see about it when we get there.

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   You been hanging around Joe Bruce’s Angler’s Edge I see.  Its a nice fly and takes about a third the time that my craw does and probably fishes just as well.  Mine’s cuddlier though.

Yes, and I was remiss to leave Joe’s name off the "Bruce’s Crystal Crayfish". I tied a bunch of ‘em last night while watching the Hill & Bill show.   They’re simple enough for me to tie, and that’s good.   My fly box for the RRR is growing nicely since I’ve been tying an hour or two each day for a week. BTW, I’m in for Saturday night (hooray!).   There will be three of us: me, fishin’ buddy (Craig), & BIL(Mike).   Hope to get set up by dark.   Start the campfire & chill the beer. Joe F. p.s. Wayne H. – Mike is also a black powder shooter.   (As opposed to white powder snorters <g)

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OK Tim…imagine a wooley bugger dressed in Cactus Ice Chenille…I use lead eyes on a keel hook, wrap some .025 lead wire on first 3/4’s on the shank, and instead of the traditional marabou tail, tie in a chartruese rabbit strip, extending it forward and tie off ahead of the eyes.

Sounds very similar to the "Crystal Crayfish" I’m tying up.   Close to a bugger, except the tail is a couple small strips of rabbit & a couple long strands of copper flash.   The body is crystal chenille with lead eyes but no lead wire. Kind of a bastard cross between a wooly bugger & a Clouser minnow.   Tied with root beer colored chenille, it has a decent crayfish look to it. Joe F.

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Sounds very similar to the "Crystal Crayfish" I’m tying up.   Close to a bugger, except the tail is a couple small strips of rabbit & a couple long strands of copper flash.   The body is crystal chenille with lead eyes but no lead wire. Kind of a bastard cross between a wooly bugger & a Clouser minnow. Tied with root beer colored chenille, it has a decent crayfish look to it. Joe F.

   You been hanging around Joe Bruce’s Angler’s Edge I see.  Its a nice fly and takes about a third the time that my craw does and probably fishes just as well.  Mine’s cuddlier though.              Frank Reid Before you buy.

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Yeah Tim, know what you mean with the addiction stuff.  Really, I’m just a newbie tier, been fumbling around with it for about 2 yrs and still can only tie the simple ones and not too good at that.  One thing I have learned tho, the fish don’t give a dang how well you finished the fly if it looks good to eat.  I get all over the place eventually, whereabouts you located?  Come to think of it, if you’re fishing for smallies, send me your snail mail addy and I’ll ship a few over your way. Frank Church

|Frank, Next time your coming through here let me know. Maybe we can hook |up and I can see one of these guys. I am not tieing my own stuff,,,yet, |so I have a vague idea of what your talking about. I am planning on |doing a class through MLFS this fall,next step in the addiction I |reckon? Tim Long | | | OK Tim…imagine a wooley bugger dressed in Cactus Ice Chenille…I |use | lead eyes on a keel hook, wrap some .025 lead wire on first 3/4’s on |the | shank, and instead of the traditional marabou tail, tie in a |chartruese | rabbit strip, extending it forward and tie off ahead of the eyes. The | chartruese worked good for me on the James and Maury, and Wayne Hart | says to tie up some in black for the Rapp.  I’m in the middle of that | now.  I’m also going to incorporate a stinger hook extending back |under | the tail for the short strikers.  BTW, I make my own keel hooks with | judicious use of needlenose pliers on long shank streamer hooks, |either | straight ring eye or down eye.  Nothing fancy here. | | Frank Church | Elkhart, IN | USAF RET. |

| |I would like to hear more of this rabbit fur concoction of yours. If | the | |Rappahanok is fishing like the James you guys should have a great |time. | |Thursday the James was a little stained from the recent rains | |slowing down the top water action but wooly buggers and helgramite | |patterns were producing some nice fish in the riffles. A site I use | |alot, may help some of y’alls planning: | |http://va.water.usgs.gov/rt-cgi/gen_tbl_pg?page=1 | |Tim, wish I could be there, Long | | | | | | | | | | | | Cool Frank…after I sent the post asking Wayne if he shortened the | | rabbit strip, I thought to tie a stinger hook in tandem and somehow | | thread it thru the rabbit strip on a piece of 10 lb test line. |Gonna | | work on it this weekend.  BTW, dusted off the old portable grill |and | |it | | works just fine…waited a little long to put the match to it after | | turning on the gas and received a WHOOMP! and a big ball of flame |for | |my | | stupidity. | | Lucky I wasn’t leaning over it at the time. :-/ | | | | Frank (just call me "no eyebrows") Church | | | | ||      Frank, took your fly and tied it in black with a shorter |tail | |on | | |a stinger hook with dumbell eyes.  I kept hearing about | hellgrammites | | |and black clousers so I figured your pattern would be awesome used | |the | | |same way.  We’ll see about it when we get there. | | | | | | | | | |Before you buy. | | | | |Before you buy.

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Frank, Next time your coming through here let me know. Maybe we can hook up and I can see one of these guys. I am not tieing my own stuff,,,yet, so I have a vague idea of what your talking about. I am planning on doing a class through MLFS this fall,next step in the addiction I reckon? Tim Long – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK Tim…imagine a wooley bugger dressed in Cactus Ice Chenille…I use lead eyes on a keel hook, wrap some .025 lead wire on first 3/4’s on the shank, and instead of the traditional marabou tail, tie in a chartruese rabbit strip, extending it forward and tie off ahead of the eyes.  The chartruese worked good for me on the James and Maury, and Wayne Hart says to tie up some in black for the Rapp.  I’m in the middle of that now.  I’m also going to incorporate a stinger hook extending back under the tail for the short strikers.  BTW, I make my own keel hooks with judicious use of needlenose pliers on long shank streamer hooks, either straight ring eye or down eye.  Nothing fancy here. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RET. |I would like to hear more of this rabbit fur concoction of yours. If the |Rappahanok is fishing like the James you guys should have a great time. |Thursday the James was a little stained from the recent rains |slowing down the top water action but wooly buggers and helgramite |patterns were producing some nice fish in the riffles. A site I use |alot, may help some of y’alls planning: |http://va.water.usgs.gov/rt-cgi/gen_tbl_pg?page=1 |Tim, wish I could be there, Long | | | | | | Cool Frank…after I sent the post asking Wayne if he shortened the | rabbit strip, I thought to tie a stinger hook in tandem and somehow | thread it thru the rabbit strip on a piece of 10 lb test line. Gonna | work on it this weekend.  BTW, dusted off the old portable grill and |it | works just fine…waited a little long to put the match to it after | turning on the gas and received a WHOOMP! and a big ball of flame for |my | stupidity. | Lucky I wasn’t leaning over it at the time. :-/ | | Frank (just call me "no eyebrows") Church | | ||      Frank, took your fly and tied it in black with a shorter tail |on | |a stinger hook with dumbell eyes.  I kept hearing about hellgrammites | |and black clousers so I figured your pattern would be awesome used |the | |same way.  We’ll see about it when we get there. | | | | |Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

OK Tim…imagine a wooley bugger dressed in Cactus Ice Chenille…I use lead eyes on a keel hook, wrap some .025 lead wire on first 3/4’s on the shank, and instead of the traditional marabou tail, tie in a chartruese rabbit strip, extending it forward and tie off ahead of the eyes.  The chartruese worked good for me on the James and Maury, and Wayne Hart says to tie up some in black for the Rapp.  I’m in the middle of that now.  I’m also going to incorporate a stinger hook extending back under the tail for the short strikers.  BTW, I make my own keel hooks with judicious use of needlenose pliers on long shank streamer hooks, either straight ring eye or down eye.  Nothing fancy here. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF RET.

|I would like to hear more of this rabbit fur concoction of yours. If the |Rappahanok is fishing like the James you guys should have a great time. |Thursday the James was a little stained from the recent rains |slowing down the top water action but wooly buggers and helgramite |patterns were producing some nice fish in the riffles. A site I use |alot, may help some of y’alls planning: |http://va.water.usgs.gov/rt-cgi/gen_tbl_pg?page=1 |Tim, wish I could be there, Long | | | | | | Cool Frank…after I sent the post asking Wayne if he shortened the | rabbit strip, I thought to tie a stinger hook in tandem and somehow | thread it thru the rabbit strip on a piece of 10 lb test line.  Gonna | work on it this weekend.  BTW, dusted off the old portable grill and |it | works just fine…waited a little long to put the match to it after | turning on the gas and received a WHOOMP! and a big ball of flame for |my | stupidity. | Lucky I wasn’t leaning over it at the time. :-/ | | Frank (just call me "no eyebrows") Church |

| ||      Frank, took your fly and tied it in black with a shorter tail |on | |a stinger hook with dumbell eyes.  I kept hearing about hellgrammites | |and black clousers so I figured your pattern would be awesome used |the | |same way.  We’ll see about it when we get there. | | | | |Before you buy.

Response:

I would like to hear more of this rabbit fur concoction of yours. If the Rappahanok is fishing like the James you guys should have a great time. Thursday the James was a little stained from the recent rains slowing down the top water action but wooly buggers and helgramite patterns were producing some nice fish in the riffles. A site I use alot, may help some of y’alls planning: http://va.water.usgs.gov/rt-cgi/gen_tbl_pg?page=1 Tim, wish I could be there, Long – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cool Frank…after I sent the post asking Wayne if he shortened the rabbit strip, I thought to tie a stinger hook in tandem and somehow thread it thru the rabbit strip on a piece of 10 lb test line.  Gonna work on it this weekend.  BTW, dusted off the old portable grill and it works just fine…waited a little long to put the match to it after turning on the gas and received a WHOOMP! and a big ball of flame for my stupidity. Lucky I wasn’t leaning over it at the time. :-/ Frank (just call me "no eyebrows") Church ||      Frank, took your fly and tied it in black with a shorter tail on |a stinger hook with dumbell eyes.  I kept hearing about hellgrammites |and black clousers so I figured your pattern would be awesome used the |same way.  We’ll see about it when we get there.

Before you buy.

Response:

Good to hear that Wayne, didja cut some of that tail off?  I tole you those green monsters ketch smallies!  I *will* shorten the tails on the rest of mine.  BTW, I tied up a couple of monster black rabbit strip jobbies today, will do a few more over the weekend.  Thanks for the report, I’m still pumped!  The animals in question should have no fear since Dave LaCourse won’t be there.  (unless Frank Jr has weird inclinations we don’t know about, yet) ) Frank Church Elkhart, IN

I started off |with one of Frank Church’s rabbit fur concoctions (large size) and had 2 |SAVAGE strikes in 2 casts!!  No hook-ups as they were striking short on the |long tail.  I switched to a Murray’s Lead-eyed Hellgrammite and took 5 small |mouth without leaving the same ledge and not walking more than 15 feet. Two |were over 14".  Now, this was in the first 30 minutes of fishing today. For |the rest of this trip report, you’ll have to listen to it at the Great |Rappahannock River Rendevouz August 20!

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Traveled to the Rappahannock River Campground today.  Water level was ideal, temperature perfect, no one on the water but me (wife wasn’t feeling well so she kept her fly rod at home).  I headed to an area beyond where I usually fish to make sure I had room to spread out as many ROFFians as might show up Sunday week.  The water was gorgeous!  If ever there was a spot on earth made for breeding and raising small mouth bass, this was it!  I started off with one of Frank Church’s rabbit fur concoctions (large size) and had 2 SAVAGE strikes in 2 casts!!  No hook-ups as they were striking short on the long tail.  I switched to a Murray’s Lead-eyed Hellgrammite and took 5 small mouth without leaving the same ledge and not walking more than 15 feet.  Two were over 14".  Now, this was in the first 30 minutes of fishing today.  For the rest of this trip report, you’ll have to listen to it at the Great Rappahannock River Rendevouz August 20! Just so everyone’s got the straight skinny on the site I want you to know what you are getting yourself in for.  Campers can only have one vehicle at their campsite.  Clave Central may not open until 12 noon on the 20th.  I’ll be there by 0700 but the campsite is rented for the night before.  The non-ROFF inhabitants must pack out by noon but may leave earlier.  I’ll move in as soon as they leave.  If Frank and Frank make lewd gaseous noises and molesting motions toward their domestic animals they may be encouraged to leave earlier.  All non-camping fishermen must park by the camp store and walk down to the canoe launching ramp (about 200 yards).  Parking fee is $3.00 per vehicle + $1.00 per person.  I personally feel this may be discriminating against some families who live in their automobiles. Canoe trips are available from the campground.  They provide shuttle service and everything you need for the float.  Conditions are optimal!  By the same token, we can expect some canoe/tube traffic on Saturday and Sunday.  My experience has been this does not really effect the wading fisherman. Kayakers are another story but don’t shoot them this trip as Asadi will probably be out there.  Cornmuse, if you’re thinking of coming, get hold of Asadi now and plan the trip.  You’ll never get a better chance for a super quality small mouth trip. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

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Question:

[stuff I agree with snipped] With the Fuji’s you don’t really lose anything over a conventional snake guide, but you pick up some advantages.

[more good stuff snipped], but… one thing about snake guides is that for a given "size", the hole is actually "bigger" than a comparably sized Fuji guide since the Fujis are closed circles and the snakes are helical. My experience is that knots and tangles more easily shake free through snakes than through Fujis.  However, with knots that have a tag end that sticks out a little, the snakes (since they are thin wires) tend to grab them more often than do the Fujis.   Mu

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I don’t know about wood grips outside of cork, but for guides, go with the Fuji ring guides.  I learned something this weekend that will help a bit even with them.  If you use 3 or more of the LSG-7J’s, make the one nearest the tip a UNSG-7J, on a 9′ rod use this guide for your last 2.  Also use an FST-7 tip.  These guides and tip are part of Fuji’s new concept line, and while the ring size remains unchanged, the ring height is lower, helping to bring the line closer to the blank in the last foot or so of the rod rather than all at once between the last guide and the tip.  The frame on the UNSG is also lighter than that of the LSG. If you want to use single leg wire guides, go for one that is coated rather than plated.  Plating will almost always peel, while coated (metal sprayed) guides should last quite a while.  There are many varieties of coatings available today and it’s a six of one, half a dozen of the other situation as to which is best.  As long as they come from a reputable source, you can choose for color and still get a great performing guide.  For salt water applications, I would go with a wire guide of some sort.  The insert guides will foul with salt buildup much quicker than wire guides. A good place for wood on a fly rod is in the reel seat.  For a 3 wt, a cork or wood seat with rings would be the thing to have.

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For salt water applications, I would go with a wire guide of some sort.  The insert guides will foul with salt buildup much quicker than wire guides.

I’ve heard that before.  I wonder why it’s so.  Is it just becasue there is greater surface area on a ceramic guide? Mu

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I’ve heard that same thing, but I’ve fished both types of guides quite a lot in salt water and have never found there to be much of a difference.  in either case, if salt DOES crust up on the guides, just swish it through the water back and forth a couple of times and it will be clear again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For salt water applications, I would go with a wire guide of some sort.  The insert guides will foul with salt buildup much quicker than wire guides. I’ve heard that before.  I wonder why it’s so.  Is it just becasue there is greater surface area on a ceramic guide? Mu

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I am in the process of building my ulitmate lightweight rod and I have the ability to examine a few options I haven’t been able to afford in years past. I have never fished with a rod that has a wood handle but I like the look of the rods that are built with them.  Is Cocobolo or rosewood going to add significant weight to a 3 wt. rod compared to cork?  Any disadvantages to fishing with wood vs. cork handles?  Do they get uncomfortable after awhile? Next question.  I think I want to build this rod with single foot guides vs. double.  Again, I have never owned a rod with single foot guides.  The reduction in weight and the increased flexibility in the rod are attractive traits to gain.  What do I loose compared to a double foot guide? Last question.  I have had a fly shop owner try to tell me that the gold guides wear out a lot faster then the titanium coated guides.  Has anybody had first hand experience with this or was he just trying to sell me what he had vs. losing my buisness. Thanks

Response:

– "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

I am in the process of building my ulitmate lightweight rod and I have the ability to examine a few options I haven’t been able to afford in years past. I have never fished with a rod that has a wood handle but I like the look of the rods that are built with them.  Is Cocobolo or rosewood going to add significant weight to a 3 wt. rod compared to cork?  Any disadvantages to fishing with wood vs. cork handles?  Do they get uncomfortable after awhile?

Complete wooden handles get slippery and difficult to hold very quickly, especially after handling fish or with wet hands. They also feel much colder to the touch, and the sensation of cold hands is very unpleasant after a while. Next question.  I think I want to build this rod with single foot guides vs. double.  Again, I have never owned a rod with single foot guides.  The reduction in weight and the increased flexibility in the rod are attractive traits to gain.  What do I loose compared to a double foot guide?

Basically some stability.  If you knock a single foot ring it will be more liable to slip than if you knocked a double foot ring. There is no appreciable increase in flexibility when using single foot as opposed to double foot rings.  The best rings for small lightweight fly-rods are probably snakes. Last question.  I have had a fly shop owner try to tell me that the gold guides wear out a lot faster then the titanium coated guides.  Has anybody had first hand experience with this or was he just trying to sell me what he had vs. losing my buisness.

Gold plated guides are useless, gold is a very soft metal, and will wear out in no time.  Titanium nitride is a gold coloured coating often used to protect HSS cutting surfaces. It is commonly used in industry for the tips of drill bits and similar tools as it is extremely tough and hard. Many modern guides have this protective coating.  Various oxides of metal are used as protective coatings for various metals, aluminium oxide for instance, among others. These vary in colour, but in the natural state are usually a dull grey. Many modern high performance guides have highly polished ceramic inserts made of sintered ceramic/metal oxide mixtures. Some snake rings are coated with special coatings, such as Titanium nitride for toughness and hardness. Practically any top quality guides from a reputable maker are suitable for fly-rods. Many people like the Fuji titanium guides or the gold cermets, which are expensive, but according to many people the best available. The URL is    http://www.fujitackle.com/eindex.html Further info is at :   http://www.mudhole.com/docs/fuji.html and  :   http://www.shofftackle.com/fujialum.html This should provide all the information you require. TL MC

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Wooden handles are also a lot heavier than cork handles. ( I forgot that in the previous post ).  Often a combination of hardwood and aluminium is used as a butt and reel seat, with cork as the grip. One other URL which might be of interest to you is : http://www.jannsnetcraft.com — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

Practically any top quality guides from a reputable maker are suitable for fly-rods. Many people like the Fuji titanium guides or the gold cermets, which are expensive, but according to many people the best available.

I use the Fuji’s (cermets) on my 5wt. They absolutely sing. Flexability isn’t necessarily the issue, it’s drag on the line. Fuji’s have much less drag than snake eyes. Flyfish

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I am in the process of building my ulitmate lightweight rod and I have the ability to examine a few options I haven’t been able to afford in years past. I have never fished with a rod that has a wood handle but I like the look of the rods that are built with them.  Is Cocobolo or rosewood going to add significant weight to a 3 wt. rod compared to cork?  Any disadvantages to fishing with wood vs. cork handles?  Do they get uncomfortable after awhile?

I wouldn’t advise the wooden handles.  I’m an avid woodturner as well as a flyfisherman, and I’ve tried to do this in the past.  Wooden handles are hard on the hands, tend to be slippery, and are cold in the winter.  They also have a tendency to absorb water and check/distort.  Lastly, they are rigid, which can be a problem, especially with slower action light rods.  A cork handle will flex with the blank, while a wooden handle will remain rigid and concentrate stress at the upper end of the handle where the blank exits. Next question.  I think I want to build this rod with single foot guides vs. double.  Again, I have never owned a rod with single foot guides.  The reduction in weight and the increased flexibility in the rod are attractive traits to gain.  What do I loose compared to a double foot guide?

This is a religious issue.  I build a lot of rods, and personally I prefer the Fuji single-foot guides.  I don’t recommend the "single-foot snake" guides that have shown up in the last few years, as I’ve found them to add little value and to be a bit fragile.   With the Fuji’s you don’t really lose anything over a conventional snake guide, but you pick up some advantages.  Among these are fewer wraps, which will reduce both time to build the rod and weight.  You also get better line control, improved shooting characteristics, and longer life from the guides.  Keep in mind, though, that’s my opinion – your mileage may vary. Last question.  I have had a fly shop owner try to tell me that the gold guides wear out a lot faster then the titanium coated guides.  Has anybody had first hand experience with this or was he just trying to sell me what he had vs. losing my buisness.

I’m not aware of a true "gold-coated" guide.  The golden colored guides that I’ve seen are plated with titanium nitride, which will substantially improve their wear resistance.  Personally, I tend to use Fuji’s solid titanium frame guides, with a silicon carbide insert ring.   They’re lighter than snake guides, and the titanium frames are virtually immune to corrosion – something to consider for extremely light rods or those that will be used in salt water environments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks

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I use the Fuji’s (cermets) on my 5wt. They absolutely sing. Flexability isn’t necessarily the issue, it’s drag on the line. Fuji’s have much less drag than snake eyes.

I’ll second that! They are bloody expensive, but I have Fuji cermet lined titanium framed rings on only three of my rods – the three that I use most. In future, I probably wouldn’t bother specifying Ti frames on the big butt stripping rings (or the next one up) since these guides are so far back down the rod and close to the rod hand that the few grammes saving in mass makes bugger all difference to anything. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hairy Trout writes: Now we have Hairy Trout telling us that "David H is real."  But, who is Hairy Trou?.  Can we trust him?  Is he just another of Mr. G’s aliases? Look in GG’s archives and see if you can find references to Doug Knight. That’s who ‘hairy’ is, he actually went to work with George for a while but things ‘didn’t work out’<g. <g is right. "didn’t work out" may be the understatement of 1999… It’s more like wouldn’t work out. The Company was to be turned over to my control but it wasn’t.  And when it was I was treated as a mere Forman. Big fukin’ Joke. The real fraud was that he was wasting my time. In reality he couldn’t make his mill work. I DID. When I left, my secrets went with me. I figured that the time I spent there was worth at least 15K plus expenses. There were many promises made which were basically worthless. Much like everything else about the operation. Rub the Genies Lamp. What he learned in 8 months I learned in 6 short weeks and that frightened him. There a has been a toughen biting silence on my part since August

All I can say, Doug, is live and learn.  You obviously can not trust some people.  I am willing to bet that Dave H. is either one of George’s employees, or a new found friend not yet corrupted.  I think most appreciate your candid remarks about George and his operation.  Perhaps Dave H.  will soon join you. Dave L.

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And Dave H earns the Plonk of the Week Award. THIS IS SPAMING

<ad nauseum

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THen would he have qualified as a ff’er? If so maybe HE could have shown me how to cast properly and then be able to enjoy more of this sport<G Inner demons have kept me at this game and I am afraid mine will keep me on the river and the tying bench as well. Ghosts of fish to be caught and those that got away will haunt me forever!! Merry Xmas to all Pierre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THIS IS SPAMING THIS IS SPAMING THIS IS SPAMING An appropriate simile would be that of Edgar A. Poe.  A brilliant man, a literay giant.  But alas there the simile ends.  For he too was driven by the inner demons.  Suffering bouts alcholic binges, he would abstain and attempt self medication with available depressants, much like some do today with anti-depressants…so ineptly named. The chemical imbalance somewhat interuppted, he would again then be functional for a short while before the manic-depressive personality disorder manifested itself. Thank god he didn’t have the internet……the good would have been lost among the endless drivel. A shame too, that they didn’t have a good twelve step program at that time, for it deals with the manner of ones thinking, the drinking being only a symptom. Who votes that we forward every damned item in this newsgroup to our own….E.A. Poe…oughta occupy his damend fingers for a while, eh?…. by the way….the kid really got off on the norad/santa thing…..thanks for

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<snipped Dave, I did a little investigating.  Mr. David Henney’s ISP is southwind.net, which is based out of Wichita, Kansas and they outsource their news service to bcandid.com.   bc.

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says… THen would he have qualified as a ff’er? If so maybe HE could have shown me how to cast properly and then be able to enjoy more of this sport<G Inner demons have kept me at this game and I am afraid mine will keep me on the river and the tying bench as well. Ghosts of fish to be caught and those that got away will haunt me forever!! Merry Xmas to all Pierre

Ah Pierre, You should not have to complain! I hear it is warmer out your way that this end of the earth! Head out to the outlet from Bonnybrook and do some Catch and Release! The output from the plant is warmer and the trout should still be lingering around there! I am not sure what the water flow is on the Bow now but if I recall correctly it should be pretty low in the winter… — Michael Era

Question:

Try Sunset crater the area if really nice, and if I’m not mistaken… It is where some of the Lunar Apollo astronauts trained for a while back in the 60’s. Not too far from Flagstaff either. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had so much success in my last post asking for this info for the Santa Fe area, that since my travel plans have now changed I thought I’d try again.  I’ll now be in the Sedona/Flagstaff area for 2 weeks in mid-October, instead of the Santa Fe area.  While there I’d like to do some backpacking – I don’t mind wandering some reasonable distance from the area to do it – S. Utah would be OK, too, for example. Does anyone have any tips?  I’m interested in something physically rigorous and wild.  I would think that I’ll have time for a couple of trips in the 3-5 day range, and may have time for a couple of day-hikes or overnighters also.  Have been to Superstition Wilderness before, so some other recommendation would be appreciated.  Ideally, I could fly-fish there, too. Any advice would be gratefully received – thanks, all.

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I had so much success in my last post asking for this info for the Santa Fe area, that since my travel plans have now changed I thought I’d try again.  I’ll now be in the Sedona/Flagstaff area for 2 weeks in mid-October, instead of the Santa Fe area.  While there I’d like to do some backpacking – I don’t mind wandering some reasonable distance from the area to do it – S. Utah would be OK, too, for example.

At Peak to Peak Trail and Wilderness Links (http://home.earthlink.net/~swfry/pk2pk/p2p.html) you will find 15 web sites listed for Arizona and 11 for Utah – each with trip reports and trail descriptions! Does anyone have any tips?  I’m interested in something physically rigorous and wild.  I would think that I’ll have time for a couple of trips in the 3-5 day range, and may have time for a couple of day-hikes or overnighters also.  Have been to Superstition Wilderness before, so some other recommendation would be appreciated.  Ideally, I could fly-fish there, too. Any advice would be gratefully received – thanks, all.

–      Peak to Peak Trail and Wilderness Links   http://home.earthlink.net/~swfry/pk2pk/p2p.html

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I had so much success in my last post asking for this info for the Santa Fe area, that since my travel plans have now changed I thought I’d try again.  I’ll now be in the Sedona/Flagstaff area for 2 weeks in mid-October, instead of the Santa Fe area.  While there I’d like to do some backpacking – I don’t mind wandering some reasonable distance from the area to do it – S. Utah would be OK, too, for example. Does anyone have any tips?  I’m interested in something physically rigorous and wild.  I would think that I’ll have time for a couple of trips in the 3-5 day range, and may have time for a couple of day-hikes or overnighters also.  Have been to Superstition Wilderness before, so some other recommendation would be appreciated.  Ideally, I could fly-fish there, too. Any advice would be gratefully received – thanks, all.

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12 Sept 97 To hike and include fly fishing, try the Lake Poweel area with a day the North Rim of the Grand Canyon is always spectacular. Normally, I’d say spend a few days in Supai, 8 miles into the Canyon with the only Native Americans still living in the Canyon.But flash flooding makes that a bad idea just now. You might give some thought to hiking in Bryce Canyon, Zion (though they might be having flash floods too), and through the Rim country in Sedona. Lots of variety and weather conditions. Usually this would be a great time of year to come here, but the very late monsoons have made every afternoon a potential thunderstorm nightmare. In fact, yesterday, NE of Flagstaff by 60 miles there were 4 funnel clouds spotted while 2 hikers were caught in a flash flood in the Canyon. Perhaps another month will bring some sanity to our weather. Have a great time. If you need books, maps, or equipment let us know. // – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had so much success in my last post asking for this info for the Santa Fe area, that since my travel plans have now changed I thought I’d try again.  I’ll now be in the Sedona/Flagstaff area for 2 weeks in mid-October, instead of the Santa Fe area.  While there I’d like to do some backpacking – I don’t mind wandering some reasonable distance from the area to do it – S. Utah would be OK, too, for example. Does anyone have any tips?  I’m interested in something physically rigorous and wild.  I would think that I’ll have time for a couple of trips in the 3-5 day range, and may have time for a couple of day-hikes or overnighters also.  Have been to Superstition Wilderness before, so some other recommendation would be appreciated.  Ideally, I could fly-fish there, too. Any advice would be gratefully received – thanks, all.

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Question:

A new client will have me spending a fair amount of time in Phoenix. Where do I fish (trout or bass, not picky) in this desert…or do I have to take up (ugh) golf?

Hi Steph, Call Jim Fraijo at Arizona Outdoors in Tempe.  He has always shared information freely with me (602-968-3868). — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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A new client will have me spending a fair amount of time in Phoenix. Where do I fish (trout or bass, not picky) in this desert…or do I have to take up (ugh) golf?

Scope out the AZ FF site at: http://www.azlink.com/~jshannon/ DawsonH

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A new client will have me spending a fair amount of time in Phoenix. Where do I fish (trout or bass, not picky) in this desert…or do I have to take up (ugh) golf?

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Question:

We have had reports of steelhead being caught on flies in several rivers. The Umpqua, Deschutes and Rogue rivers have produced for some of our customers in the last few weeks. I like September/October for the best water temperatures. If the water is in the 55/65 degree range you will have steelhead really moving to the fly. In the winter the water can get into the under 50 degree range which really makes it hard for most fly fishers to catch steelhead. Don’t get me wrong, you can catch fish in the winter, Dec/Jan/Feb, it is just a little harder to get the fish to move to the fly. Early and late in the day is prime time for swinging flies on or near the surface for steelhead. Fishing with the sun off the water is the normal rule. After the sun hit the water you can get down to the bottom with any method you can. Fall steelhead can be found in many rivers from northern California to British Columbia. Steelhead are a treasure only found in North America and should never be taken for a trophy or dinner. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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   I have been told by the steelhead experts at my favorite local flyshop that if/when the steelhead goes on the endangered list that all hatcheries will be shut down and sportfishing will be prohibited.  Call me a pessimist, but if this is true, I think it’s too bad that we will just stand around on the bank with our hands in our pockets while the last few steelhead in the lower 48 die.  After all, sportfishing has little or nothing to do with the decline in the population and we are surely dreaming if we think the dams will come down in time.    By the way, any predictions or advice for the Clearwater in late October? -al

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Steelhead are a treasure only found in North America and should never be taken for a trophy or dinner. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Great post!  However, I take issue with the last sentence.  I make a large distinction between wild (i.e. unmarked) and hatchery fish.  I used to release most hatchery fish and all wild fish.  I still release all wild fish, but now retain all hatchery fish – if for no other reason than to prevent the possible breeding between hatchery and wild fish.  We have to preserve wild stocks so that there is something to left when the hatchery fish all die off from disease. cheers, -tony gades — Tony Gades website:   http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades

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Steelhead are a treasure only found in North America and should never be

taken for a trophy or dinner. Every hatchery Steelhead should be taken when ever legal. T Wolf

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Steelhead are a treasure only found in North America and should never be taken for a trophy or dinner. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA Great post!  However, I take issue with the last sentence.  I make a large distinction between wild (i.e. unmarked) and hatchery fish.  I used to release most hatchery fish and all wild fish.  I still release all wild fish, but now retain all hatchery fish – if for no other reason than to prevent the possible breeding between hatchery and wild fish.  We have to preserve wild stocks so that there is something to left when the hatchery fish all die off from disease. cheers, -tony gades — Tony Gades website:   http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades

Responsible citizens have a social duty to remove inferior specimens from the gene pool.  Releasing hatchery fish to genetically pollute wild stodks is an abdication of that responsibility.   Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state."                           Tom McGuane

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have had reports of steelhead being caught on flies in several rivers. The Umpqua, Deschutes and Rogue rivers have produced for some of our customers in the last few weeks. I like September/October for the best water temperatures. If the water is in the 55/65 degree range you will have steelhead really moving to the fly. In the winter the water can get into the under 50 degree range which really makes it hard for most fly fishers to catch steelhead. Don’t get me wrong, you can catch fish in the winter, Dec/Jan/Feb, it is just a little harder to get the fish to move to the fly. Early and late in the day is prime time for swinging flies on or near the surface for steelhead. Fishing with the sun off the water is the normal rule. After the sun hit the water you can get down to the bottom with any method you can. Fall steelhead can be found in many rivers from northern California to British Columbia. Steelhead are a treasure only found in North America and should never be taken for a trophy or dinner. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

I was lucky to have fished for steelhead with some good anglers in the 60’s and 70’s when it was not that hard to catch them. It is very sad to see what has happened to their habitat. I have old friends, Joe Shirshac and Walt Bennette, that started fly fishing for steelhead just after WWII. They have some wonderful stories and pictures from the good old days. I agree that all wild steelhead should be released and all hatchery fish should be taken. I wish that we could start with a few good rivers and blow the dams out. If we had some decent water and a wild river I think in time runs would come back. I will be out on the American river the next few weeks looking for our half-pounder run that is best in September. I have fished for these little fish for 35 years. They run 16" plus and are great friends. I have caught them over 5 pounds on a dry fly and 7 pounds on a wet. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Question:

I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned with.  help me.  thanks.

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: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. I would check out the GLoomis GL3..I’ve heard great things bout them Frankie

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: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. I would check out the GLoomis GL3..I’ve heard great things bout them Frankie

…And more…*($^#&#Y  For a little more you could pick up an Orvis PM….the 8′4" is pretty nice. just another option steve d.

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: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks.

The Bean reels are heavier than the Orvis reels.  This may be good or it may be bad.  It depends on how you like to balance your outfit.  My Henry’s Fork balances nicely with a Battenkill 5/6 Disc; I do not want the extra weight of a Bean Guide reel. I am picking nits.  I am sure that you would be happy with either (or both!). — Keep your stick on the ice.

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: I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. The Bean reels are heavier than the Orvis reels.  This may be good or it may be bad.  It depends on how you like to balance your outfit.  My Henry’s Fork balances nicely with a Battenkill 5/6 Disc; I do not want the extra weight of a Bean Guide reel. I am picking nits.  I am sure that you would be happy with either (or both!).

I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time. Well time to climb into the bomb shelter ! Tom

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I’ am trying to decide whether to buy the Orvis 4 wgt.  Brook Trout : combo($295) or the L.L.  Bean 4 wgt.  Guide combo($275).  The only : difference seems to be thatOrvis has a more expensive rod and L.L.  Bean : has a more expensive reel and the$20 diff, which I’am not concerned : with.  help me.  thanks. The Bean reels are heavier than the Orvis reels.  This may be good or it may be bad.  It depends on how you like to balance your outfit.  My Henry’s Fork balances nicely with a Battenkill 5/6 Disc; I do not want the extra weight of a Bean Guide reel. I am picking nits.  I am sure that you would be happy with either (or both!). I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time. Well time to climb into the bomb shelter ! Tom

INCOMMMMMINNNNNNGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!

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        I personally wouldn’t choose a combo from either Orvis of L.L.Bean. I think you could do yourself a favor by putting your own set-up together. G.Loomis, Thomas & Thomas, and Powell make rods in your price range that offer good actions and strong warranties. As far as reels go, I would suggest a Ross Cimmeron or a Orvis Battenkill in your price range. These reels are probably more than you need for a 4 weight rod.         I hope my butting in was not taking wrong. The only thing I wanted to do is help. If I can be of further assistance my e-mail address

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I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time.

No war, Tom, just a difference of opinion. I think the quality of L.L. Bean fly fishing gear is every bit as good as Orvis and offers better value as well. The Angler series is a wonderful choice for someone getting into fly fishing who wants to buy stuff they will fish with for a lifetime as opposed to so much of the entry-level stuff that is just not so well made. (I suppose the Orvis Clearwater series is probably very nice, too, but I haven’t seen that stuff yet.) In addition, L.L. Bean is a model of customer service and offers their unconditional lifetime guarantee on everything they sell. I go with L.L. Bean every time I can. (And no, I don’t work for Bean’s, hold their stock, or anything else like that.) – Scott — Sustaining and Specials Engineering     voice: 508 952-4792 Xyplex, Inc.                            fax: 508 952-4887 295 Foster St.                          (Opinions, comments, etc. are mine, Littleton, MA 01460                                     not Xyplex’s…)

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Actually, the LLBean Guide & LL series rods are built on Loomis blanks. (Call ‘em up; they’ll tell you who makes any of the fishing gear for them.) The Bean guarantee is basically "whatever, forever". Friends have even sent back leaky old waders for repair/replacement/credit. Orvis rods are fine if you like the generally slower actions, and don’t mind the ugly blanks .

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I know this is going to start a war but…. From what I have seen LL Bean is a great clothing store but they don’t seem to produce (or re-package with their name) equipment of the quality you can get from Orvis.  I would go with the Orvis every time.

Misattribution.  I am a big LL Bean fan, and if the Canadian dollar were spunkier I would buy much more from them. Joke:  The Royal Canadian Mint has come up with a name for the new $2 CDN coin: an American dollar. — Keep your stick on the ice.

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Buying a rod without casting it is always tricky.  I know the bass pond sends rods out for demo’s.  Orvis rods have a consistentcy of action, that I learned to appreciate as I sold them and fished them.  The actions vary between the different class of rods but there is a consistency overall that is hard to explain.  Keep shopping and you’ll find what you like at a price you can afford.  I prefer, an early 9ft sage 1st generation 4-5 five weight, the Orvis western 9ft 3wt, 8-6 2wt and the fullflex 6wt BMckinley Mpls

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LLOOMIS   L O O M I S   L    O    O    M    I    S   REGARDS MATT

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