Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

O.K., I see where the problem lies.  Since the discussion was about salmon born in the river it never occured to me that the browns in question were sea run.  I assumed we were talking about stream resident browns and that the salmon had coloring that matched theirs.  We have browns here that live in Lake Michigan and head up the streams only to spawn.  Having seen a few of these, I understand how one could have trouble distinguishing between them, when fresh from the lake, and salmon.  As a matter of fact, limited as my experience with them is, I’m sure I couldn’t tell them apart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky

Rather an apt name considering the focus of this discussion.  The Root is probably the most popular stream in the state for salmon fishing.  As far as I know it also the most productive…..for reasons that are a complete mystery to me.  It is nasty, as is also true of all the streams in the extreme southern Lake Michigan watershed.  Doubtless, they all ran clear 200 years ago when the native prairie plants stabilized the rich silty soil, but all that ended the day the first sodbuster arrived.  Some progress has been made in cleaning them up in the last decade or two but MUCH more needs to be done and it will never happen, land use patterns being what they are here. Some, like the Milwaukee, the Menomonee, and a few of the smaller streams will run fairly clear during extreme low water conditions but they are typically opaque.  Agricultural and urban runoff, industrial pollutants, and sewage combined with an unknowable quantity of point source pollution conspire to make eating anything caught from these waters border on suicidal and yet thousands of people do.  What’s even more perplexing is that there actually IS something to be caught and eaten. Wolfgang

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I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

This has been an interesting discussion for me; and since I was the one who apparently misidentified the fish, even all the more so.   By now, a week later, I’m no longer sure.   It’s my recollection that the fish I caught had the brownish coloring with the distinctive spots of a brown.   Not knowing there were no browns in the river, I had no doubt at the time that is was indeed a brown trout.   Do these small landlocks also have the spots of a brown, or is my memory going to hell? (knowing full well these are mutually exclusive positions.) Joe F.

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I fished the EO last fall and caught a landlocked that very much resembled a brown in coloration. The guide explained that as the fish adapt to the river, their color changes (I guess like the so called "Black" Atlantics). I fished again this June, and all the landlocks were bright silver. HTH In all knowledge, consider the source. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave

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 or Gink- reaching Waldo

scott, you misspelt "gink-retching waldo." i’m a loon man…. a happy loonie. –waldo

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Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail?

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns and they taste muddy. He called them "dirty" salmon. Flyfish

Response:

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns

But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? and they taste muddy.

Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. He called them "dirty" salmon.

He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) Wolfgang

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Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR.

Reminds me.  I have a reference which says that Gull Lake in southwestern Michigan (no secrets here…common knowledge) has landlock salmon in it.  Anybody here ever fished it? Wolfgang

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW?

Goddamn RW

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Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake?

Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns. and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes.

I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :)

This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky Wolfgang

Flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

Caught a few of them on the Rapid – very brown-like but the shape was wrong – Dave explained the difference.  Funny thing, you can catch them in the same water, surrounded by regular landlocks.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Back when I worked for the fly shop,

Did you work at MGFS in Greenville?  Damn fine looking lady in there the days I went in.   SWMBO noticed also. Joe F.

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Enough! Enough! Black Flies be Damned! I want – NEED- to go back! Great TR. By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

At one of the claves LaPlac gave away a whole set of them in various stages. It was pretty cool (I just saw it, I didn’t win it). — Charlie…

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Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.

I was going to tie some 18’s but didn’t have the hooks when I sat down at the vise.   For 14’s, I used the larva lace you sent me a while back, but for the 16’s, the larva lace seemed too bulky & I used V-rib.   Never got around to the dubbing versions (couldn’t find the right color in the box, then dinner was ready, etc.) Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? There are numerous references….McClane’s "Encyclopedia" comes readily to mind….which detail the differences among various strains of a given species taken from waters where they have long been established.  From what I’ve seen of such illustrations it seems that some of the differences among and between such strains can be greater than what you’ve described above. Makes me wonder just how closely related the land locked salmon and the brown trout are.  Is this a missed opportunity for the lumpers and splitters to thump on one another? Wolfgang

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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

BTW, while doing some nymph collecting a week or so ago I found green free-swimming caddis larva in my homewater. I had no idea they were there — I’d just assumed that all the caddis larva were of the cased variety, which are numerous. I’m going to have to try some GRWs. I’ve noticed that some fish I keep have stomachs full of what I can only describe as "green goo." I wonder if it’s GRWs? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described.   Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream.   I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern.  The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

Green rock worm? — Charlie…

Response:

Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.   Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.   Dave

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By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading.

I confess I don’t have the numbers.  The guide with whom I chatted mentioned them, but I don’t remember.   I believe it had been over 2,000 the previous day, but was well under that the days I fished there.   All I can say is that the river was very wadeable, and I was able to reach spots in the center that would probably be suicidal at higher flows. Joe F.

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

My guess is green rock worm, but it might be great rice wine, or Gink- reaching Waldo Scott

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.  

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg Joe F.

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Question:

Hi, Sherry         I used to have one of those for a pet. I don’t remember off the top of my head what kind it is, but it is definitely both harmless and beneficial. They all have forked tongues; that’s what they ’smell’ with.         Most poisonous snakes in the US have a triangular head, with fat ‘cheeks.’ That’s where the venom glands are. The exception is the coral snake. There are only four poisonous breeds in the US: rattlesnake, copperhead, cottonmouth, and coral. The first three are adders and have the signature triangular heads and fat bodies. The coral snake is actually a kind of cobra, going by the venom family, and does not have the fat cheeks and thick body. Fortunately, they have short, fixed fangs that have difficulty penetrating human skin far enough to get enough poison into our system to do us much harm. Plus, they don’t inject venom like the adders. The fangs are grooved on the backside, and the venom trickles down the grooves. Copperheads also have short fangs. I’ve been told by someone who probably knows that no one has ever died from a copperhead bite, but I don’t know that for a fact.         Most wild snakes if cornered will put up a heck of a threat display to scare you away. Bull snakes will strike wildly at you, but without hitting you, and make a ferocious, loud hissing sound, but it’s mostly bluff. However, they will bite if they have to. Puff adders, properly called hog-nose snakes, will spread their necks like a cobra and make threatening gestures and false strikes. If you slap it, it will roll over, let its tongue hang out, and play dead. Cheers, Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have question for you. Since the recent snaketalk, I had a little encounter this after noon with a different-looking snake. I was getting ready to leave, and about to open the glass door there was a snake, like trying to crawl up the glass. He was dark, dark brown almost black  with a bright yellow belly. He was very skinny but long, at least 2.5-3 feet. He definitely had a forked tongue cause he was sticking it out at me. So I decided I didn’t need to go anywhere after all. So I waited. And waited. And waited. And finally went out the back door. Does that description sound familiar at all to you? I hate to keep asking. Also, is it true you can tell by the shape of their heads whether they’re poisonous or not? DH is at work. I hate to call him ’cause I know what he’d say, "It’s more scared of you than you are of it, blah blah blah.” I think that’s debatable. Sherry

– Some people think they’re worth a lot of money just because they have it.

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  Unless you have a friend that puts one on your rear view mirror. Only a garder snake but it still scared me half to death.   Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard of snakes crawling into a car that was left with the door standing open, but it would be very rare. Modern cars are pretty well sealed so that the A/C works well. There aren’t any holes for them to crawl in through.

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  Thanks for the laugh. I like that one.   Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A baby grass snake asked it’s mother, are we poisonous? It’s mother replied, no dear why do you ask? Oh good ‘cos I just bit my lip. — Adrian Isn’t it wonderful how cats can win friends and influence people without ever reading a book.

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Hi, Bob         I grew up in North Texas and I’ve often heard cottonmouths called water moccasins, but they’re actually different species. Water moccasins get quite large, but they don’t have the triangular head and heavy body. Cottonmouths have a brilliant white mouth, and they hold it open with fangs outthrust when they’re about to attack.         Once while bowfishing I was wading through shallow water wearing thin canvas deck shoes. Just as I was stepping over a clump of grass, there was a flash of white right by my foot that caught my attention in a nanosecond. There was a large cottonmouth coiled to strike with mouth only a few inches from that scantily-clad foot. I stood there balanced on one foot while I drew the arrow and shot the snake through the mouth. The hard part was not hitting my foot as I was swaying from side to side trying to stay upright. It would have been useless trying to withdraw my foot as human reflexes are way too slow to avoid a snake strike. Cheers, Dave  Hey David,     Here in Texas we also have the water moccasin. Is that also considered a cottonmouth?

– Wanted: Man to assemble nuclear fissionable isotopes, molecular reactivity counters, and three-phase cyclotronic uranium photosynthesizers. No experience necessary.

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The only thing I remember as far as color, if it’s red on black, poisonous.  If yellow meets black then you’re ok.

For Coral snakes, the phrase to remember is red on yellow will kill a fellow – so if the red stripes are next to yellow stripes, stay away.  If the red is next to black stripes, you are okay.  My theory was that I wasn’t going to hang around long enough to figure out what color was next to what color and the snake could just have the space.  But PLEASE don’t pick up red on yellow and think it is safe.  Altogether for posterity: Red on Yellow will kill a fellow. Cheers, Bridget – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, I haven’t proven that to myself yet. Snake is snake is snake to be avoided at all costs.  My daughter is slightly confused why I let her walk across our pinestraw ridden front yard alone in the winter but if it’s summer she catches immortal hell. I’ve snuck up on a more than a few copperheads that way. Grace I have question for you. Since the recent snaketalk, I had a little encounter this after noon with a different-looking snake. I was getting ready to leave, and about to open the glass door there was a snake, like trying to crawl up the glass. He was dark, dark brown almost black  with a bright yellow belly. He was very skinny but long, at least 2.5-3 feet. He definitely had a forked tongue cause he was sticking it out at me. So I decided I didn’t need to go anywhere after all. So I waited. And waited. And waited. And finally went out the back door. Does that description sound familiar at all to you? I hate to keep asking. Also, is it true you can tell by the shape of their heads whether they’re poisonous or not? DH is at work. I hate to call him ’cause I know what he’d say, "It’s more scared of you than you are of it, blah blah blah.” I think that’s debatable. Sherry

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A baby grass snake asked it’s mother, are we poisonous? It’s mother replied, no dear why do you ask? Oh good ‘cos I just bit my lip. — Adrian Isn’t it wonderful how cats can win friends and influence people without ever reading a book.

Response:

Well, I’ve read of people encountering cobras in "guest house" bedrooms in India, in the days of the British Raj, so its probably theoretically possible – but why would they want to, unless your car is infested with rodents? Because they’re looking for me. Or Pam.

Snakes seem to think that I’m going to give them goodies or something. They don’t pay attention to all those lovely crunchy squirrels out in the back yard.  Forget about all those munchy turtles and frogs in the pond back there.  No, they have to see if they can find a way to come in the front door and visit me.  They must think I’m lonely.  To be honest, I’m surprised that I haven’t had any visit me here, they did all the time back in Idaho and Washington State. Pam S.  afraid that she just invited the little monsters in and wondering if a snow shovel will work well enough to whack them with.

Response:

 Hey David,     Here in Texas we also have the water moccasin. Is that also considered a cottonmouth? There is a creek here that I like to go fishing in. One day this water moccasin spent a good 30 minutes trying to get out of the water at me. But since the bank was so high and water level low he finally gave up. Scared the crap out of me since a snake (as well as heights) are the only things that really scare me. And I’m a pilot, I love to fly. Go figure. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Sherry         I used to have one of those for a pet. I don’t remember off the top of my head what kind it is, but it is definitely both harmless and beneficial. They all have forked tongues; that’s what they ’smell’ with.         Most poisonous snakes in the US have a triangular head, with fat ‘cheeks.’ That’s where the venom glands are. The exception is the coral snake. There are only four poisonous breeds in the US: rattlesnake, copperhead, cottonmouth, and coral. The first three are adders and have the signature triangular heads and fat bodies. The coral snake is actually a kind of cobra, going by the venom family, and does not have the fat cheeks and thick body. Fortunately, they have short, fixed fangs that have difficulty penetrating human skin far enough to get enough poison into our system to do us much harm. Plus, they don’t inject venom like the adders. The fangs are grooved on the backside, and the venom trickles down the grooves. Copperheads also have short fangs. I’ve been told by someone who probably knows that no one has ever died from a copperhead bite, but I don’t know that for a fact.         Most wild snakes if cornered will put up a heck of a threat display to scare you away. Bull snakes will strike wildly at you, but without hitting you, and make a ferocious, loud hissing sound, but it’s mostly bluff. However, they will bite if they have to. Puff adders, properly called hog-nose snakes, will spread their necks like a cobra and make threatening gestures and false strikes. If you slap it, it will roll over, let its tongue hang out, and play dead. Cheers, Dave

Response:

—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– Hash: SHA1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds like a plain old garden/garter snake to me. (Incidentally ALL snakes have forked tongues, I think.)  Are you SURE about the size?  I had never seen a snake until I encountered a garter snake at my aunt’s lake place in Minnesota (I was about then at the time).  I knew it was a garter snake, and couldn’t hurt me, but I ran away, anyhow. However, it couldn’t POSSIBLY have been as big as I remember it – they just don’t grow that long! I have question for you. Since the recent snaketalk, I had a little encounter this after noon with a different-looking snake. I was getting ready to leave, and about to open the glass door there was a snake, like trying to crawl up the glass. He was dark, dark brown almost black  with a bright yellow belly. He was very skinny but long, at least 2.5-3 feet. He definitely had a forked tongue cause he was sticking it out at me. So I decided I didn’t need to go anywhere after all. So I waited. And waited. And waited. And finally went out the back door. Does that description sound familiar at all to you? I hate to keep asking. Also, is it true you can tell by the shape of their heads whether they’re poisonous or not? DH is at work. I hate to call him ’cause I know what he’d say, "It’s more scared of you than you are of it, blah blah blah.” I think that’s debatable. Sherry

The distinctive feature of garter snakes is that they have stripes running lengthwise on the body, as opposed to around the body.  They are the only type of snake that I am aware of with lengthwise stripes. One of the garter snake’s defenses is that it can exude a stinky liquid if scared.  I found this out the hard way when I was on a camping trip as a teenager, and one of the other boys found a garter snake and started passing the snake around.  The substance had a strong musky smell, so it might be something that the snake would normally use to mark its territory. —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPPmrATMYPge5L34aEQJbygCg4SzKyTT7WW1eSqgZSrof/PI+QjkAoITD jEckAMjoUieiBugeocJhtB/b =PDBC —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– — PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." Woodrow Wilson

Response:

Sounds like a plain old garden/garter snake to me. (Incidentally ALL snakes have forked tongues, I think.)  Are you SURE about the size?  I had never seen a snake until I encountered a garter snake at my aunt’s lake place in Minnesota (I was about then at the time).  I knew it was a garter snake, and couldn’t hurt me, but I ran away, anyhow. However, it couldn’t POSSIBLY have been as big as I remember it – they just don’t grow that long! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have question for you. Since the recent snaketalk, I had a little encounter this after noon with a different-looking snake. I was getting ready to leave, and about to open the glass door there was a snake, like trying to crawl up the glass. He was dark, dark brown almost black  with a bright yellow belly. He was very skinny but long, at least 2.5-3 feet. He definitely had a forked tongue cause he was sticking it out at me. So I decided I didn’t need to go anywhere after all. So I waited. And waited. And waited. And finally went out the back door. Does that description sound familiar at all to you? I hate to keep asking. Also, is it true you can tell by the shape of their heads whether they’re poisonous or not? DH is at work. I hate to call him ’cause I know what he’d say, "It’s more scared of you than you are of it, blah blah blah.” I think that’s debatable. Sherry

Response:

somewhere just waiting to cross my path. I’ve even thought up a new phobia. Can they get under the car, and get up in through the bottom, and end up inside the car?

Well, I’ve read of people encountering cobras in "guest house" bedrooms in India, in the days of the British Raj, so its probably theoretically possible – but why would they want to, unless your car is infested with rodents?  Believe it or not, snakes don’t go out of their way to annoy/frighten humans – either they’re looking for something to eat (usually live rodents) or water (if it’s a dry season and they can’t find it outdoors).  Even most poisonous snakes won’t attack unless they feel threatened, and even then, they’d rather just slither off, unless their retreat is blocked.

Response:

I’m trying, I really am. Sherry

You really have my sympathy Sherry. By living next to a fairly nice sized pond, we’ve always been victims of those surprise showings. (I guess it’s a pond, kinda odd when I hear Dave Y talk about his 5 foot pond. It’s not a lake, nor is it a pond like he and Victor have…) The last time, the very last time I have ever crawled into my parents swimming pool and spend a half day drifting about luxuriously soaking up sunshine was a couple days before my sister popped up from underneath the water just in time to see a snake slide into the opposite side of the pool.  A few days later, Dad pulled a dead one out of the filter after it got sucked through somehow. Or maybe it slide in through the hole on the coverplate. Who knows.  Suffice to say, it ended my snoozing days poolside *grin* I’m a walking paranoid basketcase outside during the summer. Moreso with a child than I ever have in the past. If the temps are right, I am much more relaxed with her playing outside without any hovering. Grace

Response:

Sounds like a plain old garden/garter snake to me. (Incidentally ALL snakes have forked tongues, I think.)  Are you SURE about the size?  I had never seen a snake until I encountered a garter snake at my aunt’s lake place in Minnesota (I was about then at the time).  I knew it was a garter snake, and couldn’t hurt me, but I ran away, anyhow. However, it couldn’t POSSIBLY have been as big as I remember it – they just don’t grow that long!

No, it wasn’t a garter snake. Garter snakes around here aren’t much bigger than a pencil. This was was definitely that long. But skinny, like a garter snake. I need a snake-ID website. Except I don’t want to look at the pictures. Sherry

Response:

somewhere just waiting to cross my path. I’ve even thought up a new phobia. Can they get under the car, and get up in through the bottom, and end up inside the car? Well, I’ve read of people encountering cobras in "guest house" bedrooms in India, in the days of the British Raj, so its probably theoretically possible – but why would they want to, unless your car is infested with rodents?

Because they’re looking for me. Or Pam. Sherry

Response:

We live next to my parents, my parents have a two acre pond I’ve mentioned in the past. We’ve seen our share of copperheads and thankfully the only cottonmouths we’ve noticed have been right there at water’s edge. She doesn’t visit the pond much. *sheepish grin* Shoes? What are shoes Dave? We’re southern girls and this is the good old summertime. But I’ll keep that in mind, when she’s outside playing all day during the weekends, I’m going to make sure she has shoes from now on. Grace

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Grace Snakes are deaf, but they have keen senses in their belly scales that can pick up even slight vibrations. If you and your daughter wear hard-soled shoes in the summer, you are less likely to sneak up on them.

Response:

Sherry, you mentioned seeing a snake you’ve never seen before.  Around here, in Louisiana, this time of year we see three times as many snakes as we normally do. Don’t be surprised if you see another. It’s always been my guess it’s a nestmate. Some days during the first few weeks of summer we can find three or four smallish snakes in one day when mowing the lawn. Only lasts for a little while though and then it’s back to the occassional view from a distance. Grace

I’m trying, I really am. We built this house  in 1982, and moved away years later. It was empty for many years before we moved back in 1999. When we firstt moved back, the snakes were awful. They were everywhere–our outbuilding rafters were dangling with skins. I think, being empty, the snakes took over but now that there’s activity around the house, we see fewer and fewer every year. I know they really don’t want to be around people. I don’t want them killed at all. I just SO hate being startled by them. Another critter that seems in big supply is terrapins, but they’re kinda cute. Sherry

Response:

No. Can they get under the car, and get up in through the bottom, and end up inside the car? Sherry — Wanted: Man to assemble nuclear fissionable isotopes, molecular reactivity counters, and three-phase cyclotronic uranium photosynthesizers. No experience necessary.

I take it that’s a no? Does this mean I don’t have to stuff my pants legs down into my socks so the baby bullsnakes can’t crawl up my pants leg while I’m driving down the road? Sherry

Response:

I have heard of snakes crawling into a car that was left with the door standing open, but it would be very rare. Modern cars are pretty well sealed so that the A/C works well. There aren’t any holes for them to crawl in through. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No. Can they get under the car, and get up in through the bottom, and end up inside the car? Sherry — Wanted: Man to assemble nuclear fissionable isotopes, molecular reactivity counters, and three-phase cyclotronic uranium photosynthesizers. No experience necessary. I take it that’s a no? Does this mean I don’t have to stuff my pants legs down into my socks so the baby bullsnakes can’t crawl up my pants leg while I’m driving down the road? Sherry

– Wanted: Man to assemble nuclear fissionable isotopes, molecular reactivity counters, and three-phase cyclotronic uranium photosynthesizers. No experience necessary.

Response:

Hi, Grace         You’re thinking of the old poem that starts, "Black on yellow, kill a fellow." That’s the coral snake. "Red on black, friend of Jack," refers to other similarly marked snakes called milk snakes or banded king snakes. They’re harmless.         Snakes are deaf, but they have keen senses in their belly scales that can pick up even slight vibrations. If you and your daughter wear hard-soled shoes in the summer, you are less likely to sneak up on them. They’ll feel you approaching and flee or hide.         The only venomous snake you have to wary of is the cottonmouth. They are both territorial and aggressive. They don’t bluff; when they strike they mean business, and if you invade their territory, they will attack without provocation. Plus, the way they hunt is to climb trees and wait on overhanging branches for prey to pass beneath. A large number of cottonmouth bites to humans is on the face or head. Cheers, Dave I think it’s true that the heads are shaped differently. At least around here, the cottonmouths/copperheads have pointed triangle shaped heads and the king snake/rat snakes have a rounded head. The only thing I remember as far as color, if it’s red on black, poisonous.  If yellow meets black then you’re ok.  However, I haven’t proven that to myself yet. Snake is snake is snake to be avoided at all costs.  My daughter is slightly confused why I let her walk across our pinestraw ridden front yard alone in the winter but if it’s summer she catches immortal hell. I’ve snuck up on a more than a few copperheads that way. Grace

– Wanted: Man to assemble nuclear fissionable isotopes, molecular reactivity counters, and three-phase cyclotronic uranium photosynthesizers. No experience necessary.

Response:

 Copperheads also have short fangs. I’ve been told by someone who probably knows that no one has ever died from a copperhead bite, but I don’t know that for a fact.

For what it’s worth Dave, the local paper just had a write up about snake venoms.  We have a very very short supply of copperhead antivenom and a very very large supply of copperheads.  Doesn’t take much logic to figure out it’s not something we need a great deal of Sherry, you mentioned seeing a snake you’ve never seen before.  Around here, in Louisiana, this time of year we see three times as many snakes as we normally do. Don’t be surprised if you see another. It’s always been my guess it’s a nestmate. Some days during the first few weeks of summer we can find three or four smallish snakes in one day when mowing the lawn. Only lasts for a little while though and then it’s back to the occassional view from a distance. Grace

Response:

No. Can they get under the car, and get up in through the bottom, and end up inside the car? Sherry

– Wanted: Man to assemble nuclear fissionable isotopes, molecular reactivity counters, and three-phase cyclotronic uranium photosynthesizers. No experience necessary.

Response:

I think it’s true that the heads are shaped differently. At least around here, the cottonmouths/copperheads have pointed triangle shaped heads and the king snake/rat snakes have a rounded head. The only thing I remember as far as color, if it’s red on black, poisonous.  If yellow meets black then you’re ok.  However, I haven’t proven that to myself yet. Snake is snake is snake to be avoided at all costs.  My daughter is slightly confused why I let her walk across our pinestraw ridden front yard alone in the winter but if it’s summer she catches immortal hell. I’ve snuck up on a more than a few copperheads that way. Grace

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have question for you. Since the recent snaketalk, I had a little encounter this after noon with a different-looking snake. I was getting ready to leave, and about to open the glass door there was a snake, like trying to crawl up the glass. He was dark, dark brown almost black  with a bright yellow belly. He was very skinny but long, at least 2.5-3 feet. He definitely had a forked tongue cause he was sticking it out at me. So I decided I didn’t need to go anywhere after all. So I waited. And waited. And waited. And finally went out the back door. Does that description sound familiar at all to you? I hate to keep asking. Also, is it true you can tell by the shape of their heads whether they’re poisonous or not? DH is at work. I hate to call him ’cause I know what he’d say, "It’s more scared of you than you are of it, blah blah blah.” I think that’s debatable. Sherry

Response:

I think it’s true that the heads are shaped differently. At least around here, the cottonmouths/copperheads have pointed triangle shaped heads and the king snake/rat snakes have a rounded head.

Thanks, Grace. That was what I’ve heard, but I couldn’t remember which was which. Apologies to everyone for the off-topic stuff but this is starting to freak me out just a little.. I was fine as long as I thought they were all bullsnakes but this one I don’t know. And I’m sure it’s not some orphan, single, unmarried snake. I know it has friends and relatives out there somewhere just waiting to cross my path. I’ve even thought up a new phobia. Can they get under the car, and get up in through the bottom, and end up inside the car? Sherry Sherry

Response:

Not sure, but they can weasel in to your house. Mom walked through the kitchen one morning, and there she lay. A huge mama of a copperhead… right in front of our refrigerator.  Not sure how we determined they got through the dryer vent… Or if I’m remembering wrong. Grace

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think it’s true that the heads are shaped differently. At least around here, the cottonmouths/copperheads have pointed triangle shaped heads and the king snake/rat snakes have a rounded head. Thanks, Grace. That was what I’ve heard, but I couldn’t remember which was which. Apologies to everyone for the off-topic stuff but this is starting to freak me out just a little.. I was fine as long as I thought they were all bullsnakes but this one I don’t know. And I’m sure it’s not some orphan, single, unmarried snake. I know it has friends and relatives out there somewhere just waiting to cross my path. I’ve even thought up a new phobia. Can they get under the car, and get up in through the bottom, and end up inside the car? Sherry Sherry

Response:

I have question for you. Since the recent snaketalk, I had a little encounter this after noon with a different-looking snake. I was getting ready to leave, and about to open the glass door there was a snake, like trying to crawl up the glass. He was dark, dark brown almost black  with a bright yellow belly. He was very skinny but long, at least 2.5-3 feet. He definitely had a forked tongue cause he was sticking it out at me. So I decided I didn’t need to go anywhere after all. So I waited. And waited. And waited. And finally went out the back door. Does that description sound familiar at all to you? I hate to keep asking. Also, is it true you can tell by the shape of their heads whether they’re poisonous or not? DH is at work. I hate to call him ’cause I know what he’d say, "It’s more scared of you than you are of it, blah blah blah.” I think that’s debatable. Sherry

Response:

Question:

A summarized quote from an article in Audubon: "The federal government is proposing that Maine’s Atlantic salmon be protected under the Endangered Species Act. In 1999 less than 100 spawning females returned to the eight rivers targeted in the proposal and those were the Country’s best remaining runs of wild Atlantic salmon. Maine’s governor Angus King and a congressional delegation from Maine take issue with the claim that Maine salmon are a distinct subspecies. They feel that an ESA listing would harm the blueberry and salmon aquaculture industries." Even if the salmon don’t ultimately get ESA protection, maybe just the "threat" of it will improve the situation. In Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming, just the consideration of putting some of our native trout species under the ESA, prompted the states’ to step up their efforts in restoring these populations, seemingly to try and curtail the ESA designation. Willi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A summarized quote from an article in Audubon: "The federal government is proposing that Maine’s Atlantic salmon be protected under the Endangered Species Act. In 1999 less than 100 spawning females returned to the eight rivers targeted in the proposal and those were the Country’s best remaining runs of wild Atlantic salmon. Maine’s governor Angus King and a congressional delegation from Maine take issue with the claim that Maine salmon are a distinct subspecies. They feel that an ESA listing would harm the blueberry and salmon aquaculture industries." Even if the salmon don’t ultimately get ESA protection, maybe just the "threat" of it will improve the situation. In Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming, just the consideration of putting some of our native trout species under the ESA, prompted the states’ to step up their efforts in restoring these populations, seemingly to try and curtail the ESA designation.

hope this isn’t considered raining on the esa parade, but i have yet to see any meaningful reforms due to the esa in the northwest.  the powers that be, inclusing those within NMFS, seem to be fighting harder and harder every year to maintain the status quo, except for those sport fisheries… those must be closed first because they have the most impact (add heavy dose of sarcasm to last sentence <G) we’re starting to get some inklings that things may be changing, but hell, chinook on the snake river have been listed for an awful long time to just be finally doing something. if it’s true that only 100 female atlantics were in 8 rivers, i’m amazed that they aren’t covered under the esa.  looks like maine’s salmon are on cruise control towards extinction. chris

Response:

I’ll conceived IMHO Here’s the facts I’m aware of. 1. Atlantic Salmon are not endangered as a species, Maine has no distinct species or subspecies of Salmon it’s just the run of the mill salmo salar 2. The runs have depleted over the past few years, despite the improvement to all the hydro projects to include downstream access – i.e.: no more cut bait from salmon returning to the sea. 3.  With the number of fish heading out due to stocking, and some limited natural reproduction,  it’s obvious to me the problem is NOT in the rivers of Maine but off the coast of Maine, this proposal will not get rid of the Russian and Japanese fishing fleets off our coast. (I do not claim this to be the entire problem, but when Canada quit netting salmon off their coast the runs improved). Overall fishing in the gulf of Maine is bad and getting worse. Giant factory ships under foreign flags sit there year round, I do not believe this has no impact. 4. Atlantic’s were placed on C&R 2 years ago to see if this helped, it takes 5 years for this to begin to show improvement or failure (for fish to return from the sea). 5. TU and Audubon who pushed for the C&R reg change have declared the program a failure, 3 years before any evidence pro or con can be produced 6. If ESA listing is approved on the rivers so designated agriculture and aquaculture will take a second seat. This could have an impact on Maine which has lagged the rest of the country in this age of economic growth. The Governor and the reps are just doing their jobs here. 7. The State of Maine has spent millions of dollars over the past 10+ years attempting to restore the salmon runs, it hasn’t worked. ESA listing doesn’t show much promise because the root cause of the depletion hasn’t been identified. Audubon needs to do some research before they attempt to impose a "solution". 8. The removal of the Edwards dam in Augusta may improve the virtually non-existent run in the Kennebec, despite the small numbers of fish in the Kennebec it’s not on Audubon’s list. The Kennebec once was home to the largest runs recorded in Maine and could be again given time to recover. These runs disappeared within years of Edwards construction. 9. ESA listing will more than likely cause these rivers to be closed to all angling regardless of the species targeted or so I’m told by the US F&W biologist locally. 10. Those numbers are not the same as what’s being touted here locally, I’ll see if I can find the website with the info. Also it’s TU and Audubon who are petitioning the Feds for the listing, it’s not a proposal from the Feds as far as I know (yet) We’d all love to have great runs of Atlantic’s, there is nothing finer than a 10lb salmon leaping out of the water on your fly, been there, done that. This proposal is premature and threatens the livelihood of some hardworking folks here in Maine. Audubon needs to back their claims with research, and they have yet to do that. Flyfish – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A summarized quote from an article in Audubon: "The federal government is proposing that Maine’s Atlantic salmon be protected under the Endangered Species Act. In 1999 less than 100 spawning females returned to the eight rivers targeted in the proposal and those were the Country’s best remaining runs of wild Atlantic salmon. Maine’s governor Angus King and a congressional delegation from Maine take issue with the claim that Maine salmon are a distinct subspecies. They feel that an ESA listing would harm the blueberry and salmon aquaculture industries." Even if the salmon don’t ultimately get ESA protection, maybe just the "threat" of it will improve the situation. In Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming, just the consideration of putting some of our native trout species under the ESA, prompted the states’ to step up their efforts in restoring these populations, seemingly to try and curtail the ESA designation. Willi

Response:

I haven’t followed it in the last couple of weeks, but have the impression that ESA enactment is a done deal. Governor King’s complaint is that it’s bit premature: the Feds gave their blessing to a 5 year plan put into place by the State, and 2 years later came back with the Big Hammer. It’s a rather complex situation with no single factor bearing the brunt of the blame, but there’s little argument that the regions that are going to get hit the hardest economically are the same ones that only recently saw their unemployment levels dip below 10% for the first time in 10 or 15 years. Despite opinions to the contrary, the salmon have lots of support, whereas the unemployed have only the government to turn to. Governor King and the State are suing to get access to the data on which the Feds based their decision. Odd that he should have to do that in the face of what is purported to be overwhelming evidence that the ESA needed enacting. The Penobscot had water temps in excess of 70 in the Bangor area last season due to regionwide drought, but it won’t matter this year, the anglers get to take a by, for at least this year and for as long as some steadily employed people from another part of the country deem it. The whole thing still smells a little fishy to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A summarized quote from an article in Audubon: "The federal government is proposing that Maine’s Atlantic salmon be protected under the Endangered Species Act. In 1999 less than 100 spawning females returned to the eight rivers targeted in the proposal and those were the Country’s best remaining runs of wild Atlantic salmon. Maine’s governor Angus King and a congressional delegation from Maine take issue with the claim that Maine salmon are a distinct subspecies. They feel that an ESA listing would harm the blueberry and salmon aquaculture industries." Even if the salmon don’t ultimately get ESA protection, maybe just the "threat" of it will improve the situation. In Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming, just the consideration of putting some of our native trout species under the ESA, prompted the states’ to step up their efforts in restoring these populations, seemingly to try and curtail the ESA designation. Willi

Response:

6. If ESA listing is approved on the rivers so designated agriculture and aquaculture will take a second seat. This could have an impact on Maine which has lagged the rest of the country in this age of economic growth. The Governor and the reps are just doing their jobs here.

how much of an impact do you think the aquaculture industry is having on maine’s wild salmon?  are there large numbers of escapees?  aquaculture definetely puts me in a tough situation… on one hand the price of fish declines, which is good for wild fish (not economical to harvest them) but the commercial impact on fish remains to make the food the fish in pens eat.  plus the use of antibiotics and the possible spread of diseases from rearing in tight quarters are imo seriously bad things. seems you want no job losses from aquaculture, but don’t mind job losses among the commercial fishing fleet.  seems a strange position since both have negative effects, although one is obvious and the other will be forever argued by those pro-aquaculture folks. we’re facing much the same deal here in the northwest with probable job losses (never mind the loss of a $1 billion sportfishery from the loss of viable fisheries).  do you have any treaty tribes in maine, because as i read it, in the nw they will be the folks who have the final say due to the treaties superseding much of the state’s power. good luck finding a solution, i hope you can find one. chris

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6. If ESA listing is approved on the rivers so designated agriculture and aquaculture will take a second seat. This could have an impact on Maine which has lagged the rest of the country in this age of economic growth. The Governor and the reps are just doing their jobs here.

:how much of an impact do you think the aquaculture industry is having on maine’s wild salmon?  are there large numbers of escapees?  aquaculture definetely puts me in a tough situation… on one hand the price of fish declines, which is good for wild fish (not economical to harvest them) but the commercial impact on fish remains to make the food the fish in pens eat.  plus the use of antibiotics and the possible spread of diseases from rearing in tight quarters are imo seriously bad things.: The Maine and the New Brunswick salmon aquaculture industry are one in the same.  All of the salmon stocks in New Brunswick’s Bay of Fundy (with the exception of the Saint John River’s) are on the verge of extirpation.  The causitive link with aquaculture is suspected, because the stock declines commenced with the explosion of the industry in the early ’80’s.  The pathway(s) are not certain, but disease, genetic pollution and the concentration of predator theories cannot be dismissed.  The spread of the deadly Infectious Salmon Anemia (of European origin and imported in live fish to North America?) from cage escapees to wild salmon in one NB river has been demonstrated.  It has also been demonstrated that wild resident fish species, such as herring and harbour pollock are carriers of the disease. That said, a lot of the Down East salmon rivers of Maine are a long way from the aquaculture industry, and the pathway of its effect on them is hard to visualize.  The recovery of the eastern seaboard striped bass populations cannot be good for salmon, nor can exploding sea bird and seal populations.   At least one expert at Acadia University contends that it is foreign fishing fleets, which indiscriminatly fish for all species that are available, are the real culprits. JB :seems you want no job losses from aquaculture, but don’t mind job losses among the commercial fishing fleet.  seems a strange position since both have negative effects, although one is obvious and the other will be forever argued by those pro-aquaculture folks. we’re facing much the same deal here in the northwest with probable job losses (never mind the loss of a $1 billion sportfishery from the loss of viable fisheries).  do you have any treaty tribes in maine, because as i read it, in the nw they will be the folks who have the final say due to the treaties superseding much of the state’s power. good luck finding a solution, i hope you can find one. chris:

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Question:

Hi there: Does anyone here have a good formula for a 9 – 12 feet leader balanced for a 5 weight rod?  Tippet should be about 4-6X.. Many thanks in advance. jimmy C

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Hi Jimmy,    See my Webb page (Leaders) for tapered leader construction. Ernie Harrison Like to make fly-fishing stuff?  See: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi there: Does anyone here have a good formula for a 9 – 12 feet leader balanced for a 5 weight rod?  Tippet should be about 4-6X.. Many thanks in advance. jimmy C

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Question:

Fisher, um, people, I’m looking for some swell spots to fly fish near NYC. I live in Manhattan and am dying to dip in a line and do some fishing! Any suggestions? Thanks,     Fishing Fan in the Big Apple Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Are fihsng form boat or surf. You can cjeck out www.thefishingline.com for reports and best areas to fish. Since you live in Manhattan, call Rich Johnson at 516-889-6895. The Fishing Line radio & TV shows RJ Productions For info on text or advertising call 516-889-6895

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There is a little book entitled "Good fishing close to New York City : a guide to the great close-to-home angling of the metropolitan region"  by Jim Capossela. it is out of print, and a bit outdated, however you might be able to find it at the NY public library or order it through Amazon.com, for instance. It covers fishing within 50 miles of Manhattan. There is some fly-fishing in Westchester, Putnam and Rockland counties, in Northern NJ. and in Long Island. Check also with the local fly shops. -Vittorio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fisher, um, people, I’m looking for some swell spots to fly fish near NYC. I live in Manhattan and am dying to dip in a line and do some fishing! Any suggestions? Thanks,     Fishing Fan in the Big Apple Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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It has been many years since I fished the area, but the Amawalk in lower Westchester County was a great C&R Brown trout stream. I heard there was an unfortunate oil spill there some years back, but it may have recovered. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fisher, um, people, I’m looking for some swell spots to fly fish near NYC. I live in Manhattan and am dying to dip in a line and do some fishing! Any suggestions? Thanks,    Fishing Fan in the Big Apple Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. [deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Reminds of something I saw on the Chilliwack River a few years back: there was a nice backwater full of coho on the other side of the river but the water was low enough to ford. I saw a guy waring rain pants duck taped to rubber boots fishing the backwater. I wrinkled my brow and wondered how well that worked. I was skeptical it could keep much water from finding its way into his boots. About an hour later he confirmed my skepticism by peeling off the tape and emptying a guart or more water from each boot. OTH I’ve heard tell that some winter steelheaders modify neoprene waders by cutting the worn boots off and gluing them to a pair of water proof snowmobiling boots with aquaseal or goop: the trick is to fit the neoprene leg over an empty coffee can to widen it then slip the can into the boot and pull the neoprene over the boot and apply copious amounts of glue. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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[deleted] Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set….

[deleted] Well…not bungee cords, but you can use those tall trash sacks with the handle ties for hippers. Make yourself a pair of duct tape booties and you’ll fishing in high style. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Agree completely with Ralph H., Matarelli makes the best whip finisher – and there instructions enclosed. Its real advantage for us with rough hands.

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Didn’t we have this thread about a year ago? Guys spaming each other on" to use or not to use" a whip finisher? Is this dream? Joel Axelrad

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Thanks for the neat idea, Bob — I just made myself one of these and tried it out tonight. It worked great! Now if I could just make a pair of waders out of Hefty Garbage Sacks and bungee cords, I’d be set…. Thanks again! R.S. Heaton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard (remainder of cool idea snipped)

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I have a Griffin and would not think of tying without it. They are cheap enough.  I suggest just buying one and trying it.  You’re not out much if you decide that it does not suit your style.

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I prefer to whip finish by hand.  Try both the tools are not that expensive and see what you prefer.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

Neat idea, I’ll give it a whirl. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

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0] : … : Does anyone : here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? : … : Pierre I am not going to disagree with either camp on using or not using a tool here. I’ll just add something I have lately discovered that applies to either for small flies and fine thread. If you rub some beeswax (or I suppose parafin) on the part of the thread that’s going to be in the finish, the friction of drawing it up melts the wax and lubricates as it snaps into place, and then sets so you don’t need to use head cement. I find that I don’t break 8/0 thread at this step nearly as much when I do this, and I don’t end up with cement clogged eyes. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

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Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily.

I tried hackle guards but I don’t have enough hands to manage thread, whip finisher and hackle guard at the same time.  No talent, I guess. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie.

Great cheap solution, though mine were given to me when a fellow ff’er cleaned out his junk.  I wouldn’t want to pay some of those prices now. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

Peter        Merry Christmas

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Pierre, I was taught to do a one hand whip finish many years ago.  I have tried to use a whip finish tool and never felt that I had the same control of the thread. I can place each wrap exactly where I want it with my hand and keep the thread taught. Never felt I had the same control with the whip finish tools I’ve tried. Of course, I never gave them a lot of use. I will say that with the technique I use it helps to have good vision (the only body equipment that still works as originally designed) but this is probably true for any fly head finishing.  Good luck. I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

– Steve Vaughn Kodak Park Health, Safety & Environmental Services Eastman Kodak Company – http://www.kodak.com

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with my eyes I could whip without a toll… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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My half hitch tool has a dubbing pick on one end which I use to clean hook eyes and the other end has a half hitch tool which I use for compressing spun deer hair. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

(Peter Charles) says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pierre   The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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I am not a precise fly tier and have found that the more beat up a fly gets, the better the trout like it.  A whip finishing tool is just an additional step in the tying process and an additional tool on my workspace. The trout don’t seem to mind if I overlay a wrap or two when tying off the head. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Make your own Tapered Leaders, Wading Boots, Fly Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did). Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice!

I’ve got a Griffin whip-finisher and consider it essential.  I *can* do a hand whip-finish but I find the tool helps me position the thread better which is very important on small dries with hackle near the eye.  I figured out how to use mine from the directions which came with it, and it only took a minute to get it right.  I suggest that you practice on a bare hook – that way you can figure out how everything is supposed to work without the pressure of having to get it right Or Else..!  :-) — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

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With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Try making yourself the World’s Cheapest Hackle Guard.  Take a soda straw, cut yourself off a piece about half an inch long or so, and slit it lengthwise.  When you need to use it just slide it on the fly and over the hackle.  The thread from the bobbin just gets passed along the slit and is thus free to tie with after the guard is in place.  Then, with the hackle safely bound down, you can whip-finish and cement your fly and be very proud of your results.  I’ve bought several sets of hackle guards of various shapes, sizes, and styles over the years and find that the simple "slit soda straw" works better than any of them.  I hope this helps. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers!

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Pierre

  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread.

Peter, a hackle guard may help –  you can make these fairly easily. Also ballpoint pen shafts make good half-hitch tools. With a bit of ferreting through some desk drawers you can find a few sizes; "BIC" style pens are a big tool (better for packing spun deer hair) while the old Paper mate style will service the smallest flies you tie. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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Never use ‘em on standard hackled dry flies anymore, almost always use a half hitch tool these days. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Response:

Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Agree completely – get a Matarelli – I’ve had mine close to 20 years. Looks and works just like new. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply. "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." – Hamlet

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Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there.

I recommend http://thesmokies.com/oldsmoky_outfitters/flytying/index.htm for an excellent illustrated description of how to use a whip finish tool, along with other helpful advice for beginners (like me). — something bogus to avoid spam)

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I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Pierre I use it on some flies, a half-hitch tool on others and just my fingers on some. It really depends on the size of the fly.  I find half-hitch tools better for small dries, whip finishers better for salmon, spey etc.  But that’s just my preference.  The half-hitch tool enables you to position the loop exactly where you want it as well as push back those stray hackle barbs that always end up pointing forward.  With a whip, you usually end up tying over the strays and having to clip them afterward.  I suppose, If I wound hackle better, I wouldn’t have this problem but that’s another thread. Take the time to learn it but get a set of half-hitch tools too. Peter Peter        Merry Christmas

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Although I know how to finish a fly with a hand whip finish, I use the Matarelli tool for this purpose. Why? Because it’s neater, the thread is less apt to fray or break, I can place the wraps where I want anywhere along the shank and it might be faster. It’s a small investment for a tool that will last a lifetime(unless you lose it as I did).

Response:

I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

Hi Pierre,  a whip finishing tool is great for finishing off flies. I know many people are proud of the fact that they dont use one, but I find the tool of immense value. You can place your whips exactly without fear of trapping hackle etc, and the resulting knot is very reliable.  Have a look at  http://www.flyanglersonline.com  Beginning Fly-tying by Al.Campbell, both types of whip finisher the English style, and the rotary style are described there. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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Pierre;         I can’t imagine finishing a fly without one. Get one, you will never look back. john – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking some fly tying classes and am really enjoying the lessons and seeing the quality of work that I am able to produce under the guidance of an experienced tyer! One of the questions I have for this group that has yet to fail me  bye the way<G is this… Does anyone here use a whip finishing tool to tie the ends of their flies?? I have been wondering if this is worth mastering because I work in a hospital and have no problem doing the whip procedure it is used in closing stitches and such but at the end of some of the flies when you are close to the eye I find it very difficult to get the line to stay on the hook! Would tying to master this tool help me in my predicament there?? Thanks in advance for the words of advice! Pierre

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Question:

Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

I think they are always in the lower Umpqua.  Denny Hannah used to guide for them when he wasn’t guiding for salmon, steelhead and smallmouth bass.  That river also has a good shad run.  Great fishery – long way off. -Burton — L. Burton Hawley         2330 NW Hummingbird Corvallis, OR

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Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

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Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Oh…I thought the post was about strippers in Oregon.

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Hey, I’ve heard striped bass are starting to show up in the surf outside a couple of bays down south.  Is anybody fishing for them from the beach? Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.

Hell, as Ken Hanely would say, " Go get ‘em." Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Question:

  Given the Spiral of Death this ng has been in for a while, I  can only attribute it to    CABIN FEVER <<<   First of the year no less.   I  suggest we all run from our keyboards screaming some " PC" epithet and dive into the snow or at least in the freezer outside. Return  to your bench and tye  a dozen #22 Royal Humpys and call it a day.  All references to anatomical parts or functions, should be spoken, face down into the snow in a civil tone. Use of Prosaic & White Label with sensory depravation devices is frowned upon, but not forbidden. Remember that not long ago there was a good PMD hatch,that you just missed and the Sun was high and warm, and the river felt cool. We will be back there soon, Britt slang or no .   Harry "Only hundred and ten dozen more… shit"

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Hi Harry I agree with your "take" on the situation. The next thing we know someone with starting talking about Rush Limbaugh or Larry King and go bouncing in another direction. I like you "face down in the snow" idea, that would sure bring me up short. Speaking of which, I have about 14" of snow to shovel off the driveway, I guess I better get started. Darn! Other topic: You state at your signature "Only hundred and ten dozen more…" Are you a commercial tier? If you are I certainly understand you statement. Gretchen and I are winding down on an order for 350 dozen Royal Wulffs – only 27 more dozen to go. And then we have about another 800 to go. Oh well, Montana winter are long and we have plenty of time. Happy Holidays. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Question:

I’m so new to this I have no info to trade, I live in Castle Rock, and I still think Deckers is great? Anyway- like you I am interested in knowing some of the spots other people prefer so please keep this posting going, Of all the Fly Fishers I know, few are into computers, and of those who do both only a few will be able to go on the same day as me, so I’m not worried about crowds forming. Mike Peters —- Fishing, Camping, MWC, Home office, Colorado, Micrographics, Computers, Electronics, TV/VCR/Audio repair.

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I’m interested in fly fishing in Colorado in some of the more out of the way streams and mountain lakes. Places that require a 5 to 10 mile hike .These places are safe from the mob because they are too hard to get to. Anybody out there have any secret places near Vail they want to talk

about About a month ago -1st of Feb – I went fly fishing out of Avon (Beaver Creek) on the Lower and Upper Eagle River, in and out of Vail.  There’s a new shop, Fly Fishing Outfitters, in Avon.  Owner is Bill Perry and guide is Pat Moore.  Beautiful scenery, but not the hike you describe.  Pat Moore is very helpful as a guide, if that’s what you’re looking for.  Have fun! Pat Ottinger

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: I’m interested in fly fishing in Colorado in some of the more out of the : way streams and mountain lakes. Places that require a 5 to 10 mile hike : .These places are safe from the mob because they are too hard to get to. : Anybody out there have any secret places near Vail they want to talk : about I’d show you, but then I’d have to kill you. ;{) Tim Walker

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I’m interested in fly fishing in Colorado in some of the more out of the way streams and mountain lakes. Places that require a 5 to 10 mile hike .These places are safe from the mob because they are too hard to get to. Anybody out there have any secret places near Vail they want to talk about —like how is Grizzly Creek.

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Question:

I am very interested in taking a flyfishing trip to Montana and would very much appreciate any info on when and where to go. I am considering driving up during the late May-late June time frame. I have primarily fished in WA on stillwaters (beaver ponds,etc.) and would like suggestions as to which rivers might offer the best access for wading as I don’t have access to a boat. I would be interested in hiring a guide for a couple of days; if anyone has either personal experience with or knowlege of any reputable guides I would be most appreciative.   Email response is OK for the sake of bandwidth. Thanks in advance. Kelly Van Arsdel

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I am very interested in taking a flyfishing trip to Montana and would very much appreciate any info on when and where to go. I am considering driving up during the late May-late June time frame. I have primarily fished in WA on stillwaters (beaver ponds,etc.) and would like suggestions as to which rivers might offer the best access for wading as I don’t have access to a boat. I would be interested in hiring a guide for a couple of days; if anyone has either personal experience with or knowlege of any reputable guides I would be most appreciative.

    Late May to late June, eh?  Well, a couple of good smaller rivers that should be in pretty good shape then are Rock Creek, the Big Hole and Beaverhead Rivers, and probably the upper reaches of the Jefferson.  I’d suggest going mid-June or so, that way you can probably wander into the salmon fly hatch on one of those streams, which is a gas.  I personnally am partial to the upper stretches of the Big Hole, but Rock Creek, while it still has water in it, might be a better bet.    All of these waters are in western MT, btw.                     Scott

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| | I am very interested in taking a flyfishing trip to Montana and would very | much appreciate any info on when and where to go. I am considering driving | up during the late May-late June time frame. I have primarily fished in WA | on stillwaters (beaver ponds,etc.) and would like suggestions as to which | rivers might offer the best access for wading as I don’t have access to a | boat. I would be interested in hiring a guide for a couple of days; if anyone | has either personal experience with or knowlege of any reputable guides I | would be most appreciative.  I’ve only been up there once, but had a great time.  I would suggest thinking about july or august.  June may be a little early with runnoff and conditions.  Also, if you havent been to Yellowstone, you may want to go there instead….fly into Jackson Hole and then go north and fish the madison, yellowstone, or others.  Or, you could fly into one of towns north of yellowstone park in montana(livingston or boseman).  Then you would have the option of going in several directions.  However, the yellowstone park is worth visiting.  Also, if they’re rising the yellowstone river ten or twenty miles above old faithful is great. drex

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