Question:

I am in the process of trying to learn how to fly fish.  I live in Utah, and my office is at the mouth of Provo canyon, and only 4 1/2 minutes away from some really good lunch time fishing spots, on the Provo river.  Last summer I bought a rod and real, and a coworker of mine taught me to roll cast, and explained to me the concept of fishing with dry fly’s.  this winter I read "Fly fishing for the complete idiot: a no-nonsense guide to fly casting" by Michael Rutter, and have been practicing casting on my lawn.  I am ok with casting now (or will be with more practice), and I understand what to do with dry fly’s, but I am clue less on how to setup and present a wet fly.  I am looking for a recommendation on a book that will go into more detail on setting my line up for a wet fly,and presentation of both wet and dry flys. Jim Ferry Orem, Utah

Response:

I am in the process of trying to learn how to fly fish.  I live in Utah, and my office is at the mouth of Provo canyon, and only 4 1/2 minutes away from some really good lunch time fishing spots, on the Provo river.

Your "office" is really that gas station across from the old power plant, right? –Steve

Response:

The big ugly pink building building 3/4 mile down university ave.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the process of trying to learn how to fly fish.  I live in Utah, and my office is at the mouth of Provo canyon, and only 4 1/2 minutes away from some really good lunch time fishing spots, on the Provo river. Your "office" is really that gas station across from the old power plant, right? –Steve

Response:

Prospecting For Trout (Rosenbauer) for overall strategy.  Nymph Fishing (Hughes) good starter book for nymph fishing (is that what you mean by wet?)

Response:

    My favorite "how to" book is Borger’s Presentation. I loaned mine to Bob Skinner last year, so it’s probably for sale in some Buffalo WY used book store by now. Hint: if Buffalo has more than one used book store, check the ones closest to the liquor stores. And thats only assuming Buffalo doesn’t have any brothels that take used books in trade.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the process of trying to learn how to fly fish.  I live in Utah, and my office is at the mouth of Provo canyon, and only 4 1/2 minutes away from some really good lunch time fishing spots, on the Provo river.  Last summer I bought a rod and real, and a coworker of mine taught me to roll cast, and explained to me the concept of fishing with dry fly’s.  this winter I read "Fly fishing for the complete idiot: a no-nonsense guide to fly casting" by Michael Rutter, and have been practicing casting on my lawn.  I am ok with casting now (or will be with more practice), and I understand what to do with dry fly’s, but I am clue less on how to setup and present a wet fly. I am looking for a recommendation on a book that will go into more detail on setting my line up for a wet fly,and presentation of both wet and dry

flys.

Response:

    My favorite "how to" book is Borger’s Presentation. I loaned mine to Bob Skinner last year, so it’s probably for sale in some Buffalo WY used book store by now. Hint: if Buffalo has more than one used book store, check the ones closest to the liquor stores. And thats only assuming Buffalo doesn’t have any brothels that take used books in trade.

  Yeah, that’s a pretty good book.  But, I still have it.  No book stores or brothels in Buffalo and I buy my beer out of state ($7.00/case last time I went back to Lexington, NE.  I bought 5 cases)   Peggy says we need to get your books and rod back to you.  I think she really means she wants to go to Denver to see our daughter and Peggy’s sister and do some shopping.  I will bring fine cigars for rent on the books. Snoop —

Response:

    My favorite "how to" book is Borger’s Presentation. I loaned mine to Bob Skinner last year, so it’s probably for sale in some Buffalo WY used book store by now.

Yes, good one  I think it’s a good book too.  Also, one that can be left on the coffee table without your SO griping about it.

Response:

I just returned "Presenting  the Fly" by Lefty Kreh to the library.  Very good book, published in 1999.  He covers more that trout in it and it has some good tips on gear.  It’s around $40 so when I need it again it’s back to the library for me or just read it at B&N.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -am looking for a recommendation on a book that will go into more detail on setting my line up for a wet fly,and presentation of both wet and dry flys. Jim Ferry Orem, Utah

Response:

Question:

Greetings.  I am new to this group, and have recently begun taking an interest in fishing streams and rivers after years of fishing lakes for bass, walleye, pike, etc.  Particularly, I am interested in trout and steelhead, and other such fish.  However, being that I am not very familiar with the local streams and rivers, information is scarce, and I have little time to do any real, meaningful leg-work, I do not know where to look for these fish on local waters. Hence, I would like to inquire if anyone has any knowledge on the subject. As described, I am looking for information on where to look for trout, steelhead, and the like in rivers and streams in NE Ohio, either on a fly or other tackle; the closer to Cleveland, the better. I realize that there has been extensive stocking of these fish in years past in the Chagrin and Rocky rivers.  However, quite often, these rivers are hard to fish due to crowding.  I have heard, thought, that there are some excellent spots which, due to being hard to reach, are very easy to fish. Anyhow, back to the question.  Do you know of any particular areas in any of the waters of NE Ohio which are likely to hold fish?  I am not asking anyone to give up a "secret hole" or anything of that nature.  However, I would be grateful if anyone could recommend a specific area on any of the regional waters which have a high propensity to hold the aforementioned fish. Thank you for any information you can provide.  Also, if my writing has been may be able to better answer my question. Ron

Response:

Greetings.  I am new to this group, and have recently begun taking an interest in fishing streams and rivers after years of fishing lakes for bass, walleye, pike, etc.  Particularly, I am interested in trout and steelhead, and other such fish.

Try this site:  http://www.FishUSA.com/FishErie/ vince norris

Response:

Question:

rw, You are beginning to sound like Forty and his objection to squaw,

You really think so? Never mind, then. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Which is one reason why I do it. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …to paraphrase Robert Lynd (who was talking about playing golf):  It’s almost impossible to remember how tragic a place the world is when one is flyfishing.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you seen the sponsored landmine site – sponsorship helps to repair the damage done by these amoral weapons – yeah yeah I know it is the user not the weapon but you get my drift. "Land mines." I feel I must call attention to a serious lack of sensitivity in the flyfishing community. I am of course referring to the use of the term "Chernobyl", as in Chernobyl Ant, Chernobyl Hopper, and several other so-called fly patterns of similar type. Don’t you people realize that over 70,000 Ukranians alone were killed or disabled by the tragedy of the Chernobyl nuclear accident, and that their descendants will continue to suffer the effects, including grotesque mutations and birth defects, for years to come? It is insensitive and irresponsible in the extreme to make light of that deplorable and tragic accident just to make a catchy name for something as frivolous as a fishing fly.

_____  gee r.w.?  You had to post this just when I was about to release the New 2001 products list: 1)  Chernobyl "First Strike" Glow Indicators 2)  Green Chernobyl Fish-Fuzz 3)  Chernobyl (half-life) Sun Tan Cream 4)  The Dirty Nuclear Green Machine Fly 5)  Heavy Hydrogen Sinking Chernobyl Tippets I have more, but out of respect to your point of view, I cannot release these products.

Response:

_____  gee r.w.?  You had to post this just when I was about to release the New 2001 products list: 1)  Chernobyl "First Strike" Glow Indicators

Great product name. George. You may be crazy, but you aren’t stupid. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

RW, I don’t think most of these guys would think it was funny if THEY were on the VA Agent Orange and/or Gulf War Syndrome registry. El Paso Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you seen the sponsored landmine site – sponsorship helps to repair the damage done by these amoral weapons – yeah yeah I know it is the user not the weapon but you get my drift. "Land mines." I feel I must call attention to a serious lack of sensitivity in the flyfishing community. I am of course referring to the use of the term "Chernobyl", as in Chernobyl Ant, Chernobyl Hopper, and several other so-called fly patterns of similar type. Don’t you people realize that over 70,000 Ukranians alone were killed or disabled by the tragedy of the Chernobyl nuclear accident, and that their descendants will continue to suffer the effects, including grotesque mutations and birth defects, for years to come? It is insensitive and irresponsible in the extreme to make light of that deplorable and tragic accident just to make a catchy name for something as frivolous as a fishing fly. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

RW, I don’t think most of these guys would think it was funny if THEY were on the VA Agent Orange and/or Gulf War Syndrome registry.

This has nothing to do with anything, but RWJ’s post reminded me of the story: I’ve known a lot of stupid people in my life, but one guy stands out in my memory.   He was a coworker many years ago who, through little fault of his own, had apparently no concept of the world most of us consider normal. From our conversations over the years, I concluded that he’d been raised in a home situation lacking in intellectual stimulation, financial stability, and positive encouragement.   On top of that, he was of small stature, and seemed to feel a constant need to prove that he was both tough and smart. He was, in fact, insecure and not very bright.   But that’s only background. He took up body building, and I believe he seriously thought about pursuing a career as a "professional wrestler".   He began weight lifting, and in his desire to acquire the bodybuilder look, he decided that he needed a tan; and he answered one of those back-of-the-magazine ads for a product that allows you to "tan without the sun".   I don’t know what was in the pills he received, but he took them as directed (knowing him though, probably at twice the dosage).   He was encouraged that his skin did begin to darken, and he continued his regimen.   Ultimately, he turned orange.   Not brightly, of course, but as the color effect intensified over time, there wasn’t a hint of brown to be seen.   He was undoubtedly orange.   He, of course, saw this an a precursor to "tan" and kept taking the pills, until he was unmistakably orange right down to his fingernails. In the end, he only earned the nickname "Agent Orange" that stayed with him for the rest of the time we knew him.   What a character.

Response:

rw, You are beginning to sound like Forty and his objection to squaw, "rw" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I feel I must call attention to a serious lack of sensitivity in the flyfishing community. I am of course referring to the use of the term "Chernobyl", as in Chernobyl Ant, Chernobyl Hopper, and several other so-called fly patterns of similar type. Don’t you people realize that over 70,000 Ukranians alone were killed or disabled by the tragedy of the Chernobyl nuclear accident, and that their descendants will continue to suffer the effects, including grotesque mutations and birth defects, for years to come? It is insensitive and irresponsible in the extreme to make light of that deplorable and tragic accident just to make a catchy name for something as frivolous as a fishing fly.

Response:

…to paraphrase Robert Lynd (who was talking about playing golf):  It’s almost impossible to remember how tragic a place the world is when one is flyfishing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Land mines." — that one is funny until you think about it. Brought to mind the old M.A.S.H. episode in which the Korean family had their child out front when plowing the fields to make sure the family ox wasn’t killed by a land mine.. Joe F. Ya, it’s a realy sad commentary on extreme rural poverty – a child is more expendable than the ox.  Farmers, their children and their animals are still at risk from landmines in much of SE Asia and Africa.  Wonderful legacy of the arms merchants. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Before the Gulf War Barbara Walters did a story on gender roles in Kuwait. She noted that women customarily walked about 10 feet behind their husbands. She returned to Kuwait recently and observed that the men now walked several yards behind their wives. Ms. Walters approached one of the women for an explanation. "This is marvelous," she said, "what enabled women to achieve such respect?"  The Kuwaiti woman replied, "Land mines." — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Before the Gulf War Barbara Walters did a story on gender roles in Kuwait. She noted that women customarily walked about 10 feet behind their husbands. She returned to Kuwait recently and observed that the men now walked several yards behind their wives. Ms. Walters approached one of the women for an explanation. "This is marvelous," she said, "what enabled women to achieve such respect?"  The Kuwaiti woman replied, "Land mines." —

that one is funny until you think about it. Peter

Response:

"Land mines." — that one is funny until you think about it.

Brought to mind the old M.A.S.H. episode in which the Korean family had their child out front when plowing the fields to make sure the family ox wasn’t killed by a land mine.. Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Land mines." — that one is funny until you think about it. Brought to mind the old M.A.S.H. episode in which the Korean family had their child out front when plowing the fields to make sure the family ox wasn’t killed by a land mine.. Joe F.

Ya, it’s a realy sad commentary on extreme rural poverty – a child is more expendable than the ox.  Farmers, their children and their animals are still at risk from landmines in much of SE Asia and Africa.  Wonderful legacy of the arms merchants. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I shoulda used this tactic with my ex-wife. The insurance money would have bought *several* nice bamboo rods. <g

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before the Gulf War Barbara Walters did a story on gender roles in Kuwait. She noted that women customarily walked about 10 feet behind their husbands. She returned to Kuwait recently and observed that the men now walked several yards behind their wives. Ms. Walters approached one of the women for an explanation. "This is marvelous," she said, "what enabled women to achieve such respect?"  The Kuwaiti woman replied, "Land mines." — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Have you seen the sponsored landmine site – sponsorship helps to repair the damage done by these amoral weapons – yeah yeah I know it is the user not the weapon but you get my drift. "Land mines."

– Charles Reaves

Response:

Have you seen the sponsored landmine site – sponsorship helps to repair the damage done by these amoral weapons – yeah yeah I know it is the user not the weapon but you get my drift. "Land mines." — Charles Reaves

I’ve seen a few sites that cover landmines (I think I have them bookmarked somewhere) plus prgrams on Canadian and British demining teams at work in places like Bosnia.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Have you seen the sponsored landmine site – sponsorship helps to repair the damage done by these amoral weapons – yeah yeah I know it is the user not the weapon but you get my drift. "Land mines."

I feel I must call attention to a serious lack of sensitivity in the flyfishing community. I am of course referring to the use of the term "Chernobyl", as in Chernobyl Ant, Chernobyl Hopper, and several other so-called fly patterns of similar type. Don’t you people realize that over 70,000 Ukranians alone were killed or disabled by the tragedy of the Chernobyl nuclear accident, and that their descendants will continue to suffer the effects, including grotesque mutations and birth defects, for years to come? It is insensitive and irresponsible in the extreme to make light of that deplorable and tragic accident just to make a catchy name for something as frivolous as a fishing fly. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Question:

I waited until the results were in and the followup comment was made about wets and streamers to submit these… Picket Pin Trout Fin Parmachene Belle Supervisor Mickey Finn Black Nosed Dace Spruce Fly Dark Montreal Alexandra I have to agree with many of the comments that Brook Trout aren’t the most discerning of fish, but they’re fun to catch.  We always carried simple flies like Grey Hackle Yellow and Royal Coachman dries and Grey Hackle Peacock and Pass Lake wets for them also, as they seem to like the flies with red in tham and with a definite contrast of wing to body colors. Larry #:)#

Response:

I love olive elk hair caddis, bead head prince nymph, Adams mosquito – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

: My vote is for the red tailed version of the Royal Coachman, followed by : the Silver Doctor, and female Black Gnat, and Grizzley King. : — : I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. I agree with the Royal Coachman and Silver Doctor, two of the all time best classics. Don’t forget the Dark Montreal! V.B. —

Response:

We do a lot of dry fly fishing in the Sierras for brookies, and the saying goes "anything with red". My favorite for brookies, and for any fish in the fall, is a Royal Coachman parachute in size 14.  I use various colors for the post so that I can pick the best one to see that day. Jack Kowalski

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie Local from down Walt’s way put me on Royal Humpies for Blue Ridge Brookies – never found anything to top it yet. Didn’t know anyone successfully used anything other than a RH until you started this thread. Maybe posters could qualify their choices by giving the general area where they use their flies. Kiyu

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Local from down Walt’s way put me on Royal Humpies for Blue Ridge Brookies – never found anything to top it yet. Didn’t know anyone successfully used anything other than a RH until you started this thread. Maybe posters could qualify their choices by giving the general area where they use their flies. Kiyu

Response:

I don’t have 12 flies but here are my favorites:     – renegade #14-#8     – elk hair caddis     – bead-head prince nymph     – green/brown wooly worm     – black rubber legs Eric

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

My vote is for the red tailed version of the Royal Coachman, followed by the Silver Doctor, and female Black Gnat, and Grizzley King.

: #18 Black Gnat

: I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best : for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished : trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take : your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your : pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! : : Thank you all,, Jamie — I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal The metalworking drop box  is at           http://www.metalworking.com                                     or     http://208.213.200.132 Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs— your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my

results! 1. Royal Humpy sizes 10-16 2. Parachute Adams sizes 14-18 3. Roberts Drake sizes 8-12 4. Royal Wulff sizes 12-18 5. Elk Hair Caddis sizes 14-20 6. Grizzly Wulff sizes 10-14 7. Blue Winged Olive sizes 16-20 8. Parachute Sulphur sizes 14-18 9. Madam X sizes 10-12 10. Letort Cricket 8-12 11. Any soft hackled wet fly 14-16 12. And during the right time of year, this baby goes to #1 Hex Spinner size 2-6 — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas Before you buy.

Response:

#18 Black Gnat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

Favourite dries: Stimulator, Royal Wulff, any parachute Favourite Midge (Dry): Cluster midge, Blue Olive Favourite Nymph: Hare’s ear,bead head caddis, metallic caddis Regards from Montreal and have fun John Brkich

Response:

I support the the parachute also. Do not know why I over looked that fly. — Toad

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Favourite dries: Stimulator, Royal Wulff, any parachute Favourite Midge (Dry): Cluster midge, Blue Olive Favourite Nymph: Hare’s ear,bead head caddis, metallic caddis Regards from Montreal and have fun John Brkich

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished

 <snipped Since learning about Andy Kim Yong Special’s it’s hard to use anything else.  All our in the #20-#24 size. 1. Yong (Brown, Blue, Cream, Yellow) 2. Yong JR (Green, Blue) 3. Yong Flasher (Brown, Blue, Cream, Yellow) 5. Yong Blonde 6. Yong Dry (Midge and Baetis) Happy Trick or Trout Season. bc.

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

        i think this is where i came in. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

a dozen yellow humpies. I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

– Ezflyfish.com http://www.ezflyfish.com BRBG http://www.abebooks.com/home/BLUEBOOKS P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604 (828)963-5001

Response:

Adams, Sulfur, Caddis, Caddis emerger, Drakes, Hair’s ear, Pheasant tail, and small woolybuger  streamers. All these patterns in different sizes. All general suggestions. What is living in the stream is usually the best bet.  Usually, one of the above will resemble an indigenous insect close enough to fool a fish. Tight lines — Toad

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

I have been asked often to compile a package of flies that would be the best for trout. Now i have my own favorites but am not quite a accomplished trouter. So i came to you all, the"experts", for your opinion. I will take your replies and pick the 12 that show up the most. Dries to nymphs—your pick! After the replies begin to drop off i’ll let you all know my results! Thank you all,, Jamie

Response:

Question:

This is way off topic (sorry).

Tony: Not even remotely off-topic.  Actually, in an interesting sort of way, it’s very on-topic.  Spam was a favorite subject in MPFC skits, and it is much in vogue here on roff. Bob "The Camembert is quite runny, today." Before you buy.

Response:

You must live in Utah, too, then? A video store not far from here did an extremely brisk business last year blanking out the bare-breast scene on "Titanic" videos.  You ain’t seen strange until you’ve seen "community standards" in Utah.

I haven’t been to Utah for about 7 years, but one thing that struck me as odd was that waitresses in restaurants told me they were prohibited by law from asking if I wanted a "drink".   They always asked if I wanted a "beverege" so as not to promote the consumption of alchohol. Joe F.

Response:

My personal favorite, the renowned German film "Tin Drum" adapted from recent nobel Prize winner Gunter Grass’s novel…BANNED in locations all over the U.S. due to allegations of kiddie-porn. Yup…such things do indeed occur here. ACP   Wishing I was on one of my favorite New England streams RIGHT NOW. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

Response:

Hmmm… let me clarify, if possible. I did note that some stuff is likely to be banned if it is extremely pornographic in some sense ( and the courts let local communities decide on standard of decency, though there has been , as of my last check, some move to have a national standard ( see pope v illinois, forget date). additionally, something being banned in my opinion means that the STATE somehow keeps it from being made available… some business owner, as noted inthe utah case, not making something available or editing it, is not BANNING… notwithstanding, i am willing to stand partly corrected. edwin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My personal favorite, the renowned German film "Tin Drum" adapted from recent nobel Prize winner Gunter Grass’s novel…BANNED in locations all over the U.S. due to allegations of kiddie-porn. Yup…such things do indeed occur here. ACP   Wishing I was on one of my favorite New England streams RIGHT NOW. <snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

Response:

Incredible. You’re right about the film, absolutely wonderful. The book is even better, must have read it about three times by now.. Cheers, Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My personal favorite, the renowned German film "Tin Drum" adapted from recent nobel Prize winner Gunter Grass’s novel…BANNED in locations all over the U.S. due to allegations of kiddie-porn. Yup…such things do indeed occur here. ACP   Wishing I was on one of my favorite New England streams RIGHT NOW. <snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

do we have a topic index?  guess i missed it….anyway, hey tony…i say old chap, how about taping it for us. <GG  I think yer about a bottle short if you’re gonna watch python *and* rugby…MP is the all-time funniest stuff ever served up…it’s soul twisting and twisted humor…my favorite… but rugby, the lions vs. the christians had to be easier to watch…those guys make the nfl look like a bunch of brits at a tea party…   course, we’ll be doin our own bit of MP…bunch of old farts searching for the holy grail…some of us on horseback, too.  wish you were here. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Excellent-but shouldn’t that be  ’Sorry, this is ROFF,….’ !!! David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, I could flyfish with anyone who likes Monty Python.. You bloody, coffee-nosed, flyfishing twit! I hate bloody Monty Python! Shut your pathetic Yankee gob! Oh, you’re here for an argument? Sorry, this is Abuse. Down the hall and to the right, please. Next! — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Oh man….I hate to do this, as it soudns jingoistic as hell, but… I would be stunned to findout any monty python movie had ever been BANNED in the united states.  IN fact, i would be stunned to find out any movie short of outrageously hard core porn, and even that, had ever been banned. and of course, python is the most funny stuff ever.  period. nudge nugdge. edwin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.

You must live in Utah, too, then? A video store not far from here did an extremely brisk business last year blanking out the bare-breast scene on "Titanic" videos.  You ain’t seen strange until you’ve seen "community standards" in Utah. Bob Before you buy.

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<snip Prepare to be stunned Edwin.  Not only do various movies still get banned, albeit mostly on a local basis, but they still ban books too.  We live in a very strange place.  I believe that "Huckleberry Finn" is still the most banned book in America! Go figure.

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BTW, I could flyfish with anyone who likes Monty Python..

You bloody, coffee-nosed, flyfishing twit! I hate bloody Monty Python! Shut your pathetic Yankee gob! Oh, you’re here for an argument? Sorry, this is Abuse. Down the hall and to the right, please. Next! — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Send us a match report when you get to the end so we can all have a laugh at your drunken despondency (All Blacks are bound to win by a huge margin)!

http://www.rwc99.com/tournament/report.sps?matchid=2000405 (Hoping Wales beat the team of antipodean round-eyes that call themselves Japan!)

http://www.rwc99.com/tournament/default.sps — Phil Jones Nogood Boyo

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This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Did some of you see the Life of Brian?

Tony, I’ve seen about twenty times.  I think I have it on tape somewhere around the house (unless my kids have taped cartoons over it:) I’ll never forget the part with Biggus Dickus and the WeeWees Woger! (Release Roger) part of the movie.  I have tears in my eyes just thinking about it! Tim

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Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Tony, I’ve seen about twenty times.  I think I have it on tape somewhere around the house (unless my kids have taped cartoons over it:) I’ll never forget the part with Biggus Dickus and the WeeWees Woger! (Release Roger) part of the movie.  I have tears in my eyes just thinking about it!

"Thwow him woughly to the gwound!" Priceless! Again, I apologise for such a blatantly off topic contribution. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing. I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal.

You’ll need ‘em both KIWI,KIWI,KIWI!

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This is way off topic (sorry).

When the only topic is George, his damned rods or bloody gink/xink – off topic is fine! And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing.

Yes I do, never ceases to amaze me how we can get 60 cable channels here and its all crap, and full of spam!  Amazingly the good old Beeb and ITV produce stuff in a totally different quality league.  Give me 4 (or 5) UK great channels instead of all this rubbish! (Ok, there is the odd decent thing on here now and then but no consistency.) I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal.

Send us a match report when you get to the end so we can all have a laugh at your drunken despondency (All Blacks are bound to win by a huge margin)! David (Hoping Wales beat the team of antipodean round-eyes that call themselves Japan!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union.

Got it on tape, and I watched it on cable when I lived in Kansas so if it was banned it wasn’t *very* banned<g. Always look on the bright side of life… — Charlie…

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This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union.

a) Life of Brian is a frequent re run over here on Comedy Central as is the rest of the Python stuff. Hell even Fawlty Towers is on here. And, before that, tomorrow afternoon: England v. New Zealand in the Rugby Union World Cup.

b) Rugby Games are widley available at least in the Boston area in pubs, which is where I am heading. You buggers just don’t know what you are missing.

c) wam beer, bad food, Spice Girls, farmed trout, shite weather – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have two bottles of Glenmorangie to assist me through this ordeal. Tight Lines Who cares? Tony Deacon

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"He’s not the messiah!  He’s a very naughty boy!" Never get enough of that.. I do remember when the movie first came out, I was probably 18 or so, and my mother forbade us all from seeing it.. we grew up good Catholic boys, you see. Ironically enough, I just saw her recently, and the whole group of us rented "Life of Brian" and I think mom laughed more then the rest of us. -Mark BTW, I could flyfish with anyone who likes Monty Python.. This is way off topic (sorry). Tomorrow night on BBC2 is ‘Python Night’! The thirtttietthh annniverrrsarry!!! There will be reviews; interviews and retrospectives; even the old MP gang dipping into the dressing-up box for some brand new sketches. AND …. a showing of the ‘Life of Brian’ (the funniest film ever screened). Did some of you see the Life of Brian? Like Darwin; like Harry Potter … it was banned from some (?) of the States in the Union.

– Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

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Question:

Hi out there         I am going to Poland for three weeks in july this summer. I was hoping that somebody could give me some advise about fly fishing in the Bialystok area (North-east). I have tried my national newsgroup, but there was no response, so please help.     Yours sincerely — Stud. Scient Torben Meldgaard Skelagervej 48 DK-8200

Question:

Where on St. John? I was there this August and didn’t see any flats, but then I didn’t get around the whole island. Depending on the size of the fish you’ll need a 7-9 wt rod and a good reel with a disc drag. Shrimp imitation flies like Crazy Charlies work well. Make sure you can cast in the wind. Hi, can anyone point me in the right direction.  I am an avid brown trout fisherman.  I was in St John yesterday and I came across a most amazing piece of bonefishing water.  The kind of place we all dream of.  Bone fishing galore and I stuck down here without my rod.  Can anyone fill me in on what is the deal with bonefishing?  Where do I start to look for more info?  I’m SOOOOO CURIOUS!!!  I want to catch me a bone!

– Charlie…

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Hi, can anyone point me in the right direction.  I am an avid brown trout fisherman.  I was in St John yesterday and I came across a most amazing piece of bonefishing water.  The kind of place we all dream of.  Bone fishing galore and I stuck down here without my rod.  Can anyone fill me in on what is the deal with bonefishing?  Where do I start to look for more info?  I’m SOOOOO CURIOUS!!!  I want to catch me a bone!

Hi All, I heard there were bonefish flats off of Mosquito Island, Peter’s Island and Anegada Island. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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My "go to" outfit for the flats: an 8wt sage fitted with 9wt shooting head – intermediate. Loads quick, casts well in a wind, can get 90 ft in calm. Reel: Abel 3, but probabably would do better with an Abel 2. So long as you can put 150 yds of backing on it. You’ll need it. Leader: 9 ft, with a 4′ tippet of fluorocarbon 10lb test. Now, the fly: Never have had great luck with Charlies. Ultra Shrimp in size 4 to 1/0 puts a nice piece of meat in their sight. What’s the deal about a bonefish? Once yo hook one, you’ll wonder why you ever asked such a question. Good luck! FlyFisherRay

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I, too, am an avid brown and rainbow trout fisherman, and for help with bone fishing, e-mail me. I know a guide. I’ll find his e-mail address.

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Hi, can anyone point me in the right direction.  I am an avid brown trout fisherman.  I was in St John yesterday and I came across a most amazing piece of bonefishing water.  The kind of place we all dream of.  Bone fishing galore and I stuck down here without my rod.  Can anyone fill me in on what is the deal with bonefishing?  Where do I start to look for more info?  I’m SOOOOO CURIOUS!!!  I want to catch me a bone!

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Question:

I would love to learn how to fly fish – my son gave me a fly rod and reel for fathers day 3 years ago.  With it came some line and a leader – someone told me I need some backing.  What is that for?  How do I learn to cast? What about tying flys on my line?  Can you help? Thanks

Hi Barry I think the best way to learn to fly fish is from a friend and joining your local fly fishing club is a good way to find that friend. Call the Federation of Fly Fishers (406-585-7592) and see if there is a club near you. If none are avaiable your local fly shop is a good place to start. An hour or two invested in casting lesson with a professonal can save you years of frustration trying to learn by yourself. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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I would love to learn how to fly fish – my son gave me a fly rod and reel for fathers day 3 years ago.  With it came some line and a leader – someone told me I need some backing.  What is that for?  How do I learn to cast? What about tying flys on my line?  Can you help? Thanks

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to learn how to fly fish – my son gave me a fly rod and reel for fathers day 3 years ago.

Was it for Fathers’ Day because it came without documentation; you know, real men don’t read directions anyway. . .  With it came some line and a leader – someone told me I need some backing.  What is that for?

Backing is a small diameter, lightweight woven line that gets attached to the arbor of the spool of your reel, then tied onto your fly line. If you put just the fly line on the spool, you’ll see there’s probably space left over at the outer edges of the spool.  The backing takes up this extra space, but from the bottom.  The backing also serves as extra line in case you catch a really big fish (or a truck) and all your fly line gets taken from the spool.  Thus the phrase: "Man, that fish took me into my backing."  Lacking some sort of booklet giving you the capacity of your reel using different line sizes–oh, didn’t I mention fly line comes in various diameters and lengths?–take the reel and fly line down to your local fly shop, and ask them nicely if they’ll put the backing and fly line on the reel for you.[Image] They’ll be glad to do it, because you’re going to be buying lots of other stuff there, either now or later, but it’s inevitable.  How do I learn to cast? What about tying flys on my line?  Can you help?

I can’t help, but there are several books that can.  While you’re down at your local fly shop (not the fishing dept. at Walmart, please) look over their selection.  I have heard somewhere that flyfishing has the most extensive literature of any blood sport, and I half believe it. After 20 years, still the best book for absolute tyros is "The Curtis Creek Manifesto" by Richard Sheridan.  Don’t let the comic book format put you off.  The book addresses just about every topic for which the beginner has questions.  It’ll hold you for a couple of seasons. And, of course, for the most experts per square byte, don’t forget this newsgroup, ROFF. Good luck, Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me. http://www.midtown.net/~angler/ Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITEI would love to learn how to fly fish – my son gave me a fly rod and reel <BRfor fathers day 3 years ago.</BLOCKQUOTE Was it for Fathers’ Day because it came without documentation; you know, real men don’t read directions anyway. . . <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE&nbsp;With it came some line and a leader – someone <BRtold me I need some backing.&nbsp; What is that for?</BLOCKQUOTE Backing is a small diameter, lightweight woven line that gets attached to the arbor of the spool of your reel, then tied onto your fly line.&nbsp; If you put just the fly line on the spool, you’ll see there’s probably space left over at the outer edges of the spool.&nbsp; The backing takes up this extra space, but from the bottom.&nbsp; The backing also serves as extra line in case you catch a really big fish (or a truck) and all your fly line gets taken from the spool.&nbsp; Thus the phrase: "Man, that fish took me into my backing."&nbsp; Lacking some sort of booklet giving you the capacity of your reel using different line sizes–oh, didn’t I mention fly line comes in various diameters and lengths?–take the reel and fly line down to your local fly shop, and ask them nicely if they’ll <PThey’ll be glad to do it, because you’re going to be buying lots of other stuff there, either now or later, but it’s inevitable. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE&nbsp;How do I learn to cast? <BRWhat about tying flys on my line?&nbsp; Can you help?</BLOCKQUOTE I can’t help, but there are several books that can.&nbsp; While you’re down at your local fly shop (not the fishing dept. at Walmart, please) look over their selection.&nbsp; I have heard somewhere that flyfishing has the most extensive literature of any blood sport, and I half believe it.&nbsp; After 20 years, still the best book for absolute tyros is "The Curtis Creek Manifesto" by Richard Sheridan.&nbsp; Don’t let the comic book format put you off.&nbsp; The book addresses just about every topic for which the beginner has questions.&nbsp; It’ll hold you for a couple of seasons. <PAnd, of course, for the most experts per square byte, don’t forget this newsgroup, ROFF. <PGood luck, <BRAnglerboy <P– <BRTrout fear me, <BRWomen want me. <BR<A HREF="http://www.midtown.net/~angler/"http://www.midtown.net/~angler/</A <BR&nbsp;</HTML Content-Type: image/jpeg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="C:tempnsmail8H.jpeg" <encoded_portion_removed FFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQB//2Q==

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I would love to learn how to fly fish – my son gave me a fly rod and reel for fathers day 3 years ago.  With it came some line and a leader – someone told me I need some backing.  What is that for?

Strong cheap line between the reel core and the expensive fly line (1) so the fly line does not get too curly by being wound up tight, (2) in case you hook such a big fish that he can pull out all the fly line before you play and land him.  How do I learn to cast?

As posted elsewhere, club membership is the single best bet. If locally unavailable, there are excellent books: look in the library for Joe Brooks. There are also videos nowadays, about both casting technique and how to interpret the water. What about tying flys on my line?  

Knots are needed to attach: — fly hook to fine nylon tippet, e.g. turle knot, — tippet to heavier nylon leader, e.g. blood knot, — leader to fly line  ) both use the — fly line to backing ) needle or nail knot — backing to reel. Nylon (leader material) requires special knots because it is so slippery. Good guidebooks show in pictures how to tie them. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Question:

The talc miner in charge of the operation was reported to have said: "Now this REALLY chaps my ass" As the river was sucked into the abyss. TimW

Response:

Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

Paul, The fellow who made the original post, Sandy Pittendrigh, played a practical joke, sort of a "War of the Worlds" type deal.  Nothing happened to the Big Hole at all.  I fished it several times this season, and it was in fine shape! — Dave Kumlien Montana Troutfitters 1716 W. Main St. Bozeman, MT 59715 http://www.gomontana.com/Business/Trout/trout.html

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What about the demolition derby?!!! Sure would hate to lose that All-American event as well. Jon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wiped out the town of Dillon as well….no Labor Day rodeo this year Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

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Wiped out the town of Dillon as well….no Labor Day rodeo this year – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

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Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that?

The leak was plugged by the thousands of refugee beavers fleeing Sandy’s Montana estate. — -Wayne Trzyna

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For a few minutes though it sure created a stir.  So much so for me I jumped in the truck and drop two hours to be sure if it was there or not. So, was it still there, and if it is, how much talc is in the water? Have the browns become "whitefish?" Charlie Quinton Laramie, Wyoming

I just fished the Big Hole last weekend and found the sub-terranian section to be especially productive.  The best pattern was a blind cave shrimp imitation. Hell of a boat ride though. Don Kelly Butte  MT

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Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

Hi Paul, That story was a joke/hoax.  For a few minutes though it sure created a stir.  So much so for me I jumped in the truck and drop two hours to be sure if it was there or not. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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For a few minutes though it sure created a stir.  So much so for me I jumped in the truck and drop two hours to be sure if it was there or not.

So, was it still there, and if it is, how much talc is in the water? Have the browns become "whitefish?" Charlie Quinton Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the stream.  What is the update on that? -Paul

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: Did the Big Hole river have any major damage a few months back when the : talc miners blew into an underground cavern somewhere, thus diverting the : stream.  What is the update on that? A few weeks ago, it reappeared above ground, forming a new branch of DePuy’s Spring Creek. But I don’t know how the piranhas got in there. — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

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Question:

Jeff: The cost of a fly-in to Northern Ontario lakes(walley/pike) typically runs $400-500 Canadian for a week.  That includes your fly-in from the local airport and accomodations(fairly rustic). Most remote lakes in N. Ontario are loaded with average  2 lb walleye, plus some trophy pike and walleye. I don’t have any recommendations handy, but 1-800-ONTARIO is a good start.  Let me know if you are really interested and I’ll see what I can do. remo

Response:

        Since I was little, I have dreamed of taking a fly-in trip to one of the remote lakes in Canada.  I think people will basically drop you off with a pontoon plane at a lake for a week or so, and you fish for big pike/ walleye/muskie.  I think I can camp- I don’t need a cabin.           Does anyone have any experience with this type of thing?  How much does it cost?  Any recommendations?  Are guides used?  I’m going to call 1-800-ONTARIO, but after Scott Maitland’s fiasco fishing vacation, I think I’d like to talk with someone who has had a positive experience with an outfitter.         Thanks much. -Jeff

Response:

Smith) says:        Since I was little, I have dreamed of taking a fly-in trip to one of the remote lakes in Canada.  I think people will basically drop you off with a pontoon plane at a lake for a week or so, and you fish for big pike/ walleye/muskie.  I think I can camp- I don’t need a cabin.        Does anyone have any experience with this type of thing?  How much does it cost?  Any recommendations?  Are guides used?  I’m going to call 1-800-ONTARIO, but after Scott Maitland’s fiasco fishing vacation, I think I’d like to talk with someone who has had a positive experience with an outfitter.

 Jeff,     Thanks for the citation, though I can think of better ways to be cited. I don’t distrust the brochures and materials we received…I just learned to be much more wary of what I am reading (and listening to) and also that you are safer if you get a first-hand recommendation from someone you know you can trust.  It’s the classic "buyer beware" with the lodge owner looking out for his business. We have since contacted many more places in Ontario and..this time we looked at the much fancier resorts.  I think this past trip we managed to outwit ourselves into a place that was nothing that we were looking for..meaning that the place s was a dive, the fishing stunk, the boats leaked, etc. Next trip we are going to spend the extra $$.  Again…a STRONG personal recommendation can mean a lot but you also have to be able to trust the person.  For example, a co-worker of my brother in law swears that the place we stayed is great…the fishing wonderful, and he was ready to go back there again.  The catch:  he used to go 10 years ago, hasn’t been back lately, and maybe he’s the type who only wants some sort of roof over his head without concern for anything else?  When we told him how horrible our trip was he seemed shocked.  Either the place really went down hill during those ten years or he has a very different idea of a good vacation. Let me know what you find…also, does anyone out there know of a contact point in the Ministry of Tourism in Ontario?  We wanted to voice our concerns with the place we stayed but the only contact I was given (by the 1-800-ontario  number) was the Better Business Bureau.  Thanks,                                           Scott

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