Question:

[snipped] Great story.  I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here

Response:

……On Saturday at a Back Yard Burger I saw four young Elvises (Elvii) getting out of a powder blue 1962 Buick convertible.

The dude DOES get around.  He spends his days picking up trash at Children’s Hospital of Wisconsin, here in Milwaukee. Wolfgang i guess the king of rock-n-roll biz ain’t what it used to was.

Response:

Great story.  I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here

TAKE A SHOWER ALREADY! mEMPHIS jIM No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week.

Response:

says… Great story.  I can feel the slime and smell the penetrating odor from here TAKE A SHOWER ALREADY! mEMPHIS jIM No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week.

thanks.  I was wondering what I stepped in… — Rob (but have you gone by Graceland…)

Response:

Actually that’s not true.  On Saturday at a Back Yard Burger I saw four young Elvises (Elvii) getting out of a powder blue 1962 Buick convertible. Memphis Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I haven’t seen Elvis this week. thanks.  I was wondering what I stepped in… — Rob (but have you gone by Graceland…)

Response:

Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.

BTW, TBone, I forgot to mention the graylings… hehe

Response:

Is that you, Frank?

No sir. Not Frank. Ben. -bh

Response:

Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.

Response:

Is that you, Frank? No sir. Not Frank. Ben.

It tis nice to see others with a single minded devotion to the fish.  Hey, so what if you get a bit messy, you got a fish and these guys are just dreaming of getting some. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Boulder, ponds near Munson’s ? You mean 75th and Valmont ? Not the Sawhill’s ? How in the world is there trout in any pond near there ? The water must be 85 degrees ? Good bass’n out there, and big carp. But you say there’s some nice trout, eh ? Could you please be more specific about where these ponds are ? TIA. Bone.

You clearly know the place, what I’ve been tiold by the F&G guys that patrol the area is that the ponds are and have for some time been dumping grounds for stock. Big bass, yes. I’ve lifted an 18 inch large mouth out of the back pond on a #10 krystal bugger tied to 6X tippet and a 4wt rod. I’ve also taken more than a number of catfish ON THE SURFACE using smallish, bright white upwing something or others (I forget exactly) from the first pond. Sunfish, bluegills, small mouths, big mouths. The place is like a proving ground for fly tackle. Specifically on the trout issue: Walk back from the parking lot, past the pond with the dock. The next pond on the north side of that path is huge and damned near dry. Stand there on the south side near the aspen stand, open your eyes and prick your ears. Those big dark shadowy bug sucking monsters are trout. If we don’t get some rain soon, they will soon be trout jerky. Let me know and I’ll meet you there. -bh Boulder, CO

Response:

I spent the day fishing one of the back ponds out near Munson’s east of Boulder, CO. The current drought and a bit of local water politics has reduced many of these usually healthy potholes to small bowls of muddy, stringy soup. The hole I chose to visit today caught my eye via my ear when I heard loud slurping sounds coming from the ooze. I sat down on a clump of rye grass and watched some of the biggest lunker trout I’ve ever seen sucking bugs off of the surface, their backs complelety exposed to the air as they lay cradled in the thick weeds. I sat and I watched and I evaluated. Two big problems — 1.) the sea weed was very thick and left only small (maybe 4-5 ft. across) targets of clear (kind of) water in which to land a fly and 2.) the CO Fish and Game had encouraged aspens all along this particular bank leaving only a 10 by 10 ft "window" for me to shoot a line through. Normally I’d feel ok about a tight cast like that, but I was also standing 10-12 feet above the surface of the water which put my backcast up high and my front cast down sharply. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I tied on a #8 Dave’s hopper variant that I picked up in a general store in Ten Sleep, WY this summer. This version has gads of jangly rubber legs and makes all kind of ruckus on the surface when you twitch ‘em. I had no clue what they were sipping so I figured something juicy and big might bust them away from whatever hatch they were enjoying at the moment. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I began to realise that there was not a single sunfish or gilly or anything small at or near the water’s edge. it occurred to me that this pond had been shrinking for months and that anything small had been consumed by the elders in the water. This explained their size. Off in the distance, maybe 100 yds or so from my clump of grass were two blue herons standing in less than a foot of water. They were no doubt waiting patiently for one of these giants to glide by. I tried to imagine what that fight would look like. The scene in front of me was like an entire wildlife documentory but without the narrative. Truly unreal. So I decided it was time. I screeched off 20 or 30 feet of line from my little Princess and flicked the tippet end out toward the water. Two or three false casts swished through the air and — and this is god’s truth — I popped that little hopper right smack in the center of a clear spot in the water. I watched. I waited. I stripped in the slack and I waited some more. The water was so dark and so thick with growth that it was hard to see anything beneath the surface. I waited a minute or so and finally I gave her a twitch. My little bug pushed a bow-wave straight toward me and floated high on the water. Another ten seconds and I gave it another twitch. This time something thick and black and large rolled over and devoured my fly. I popped my wrist back and hooked up nicely. That fish — my fish — ran a slalom course through the weeds and tangled my leader 5 ways from Sunday. I stood up, fell and slid like a knothead down the bank and landed on my knees in the muck. But I still had a fish on! I stripped the slack that had formed from my fall and felt the leader knot hit the tip of my rod. I knew I was less than 9 feet from this fish and I wasn’t going to let a little slime stop me from landing him. What I didn’t plan on was the "lack of firmness" on the bottom of the pond. I stepped into the water — just a foot or so — and immediately felt the coolness of the mud slide deliciously up to my knees. I tried to step out and I felt one of my Teva’s come off my foot. Damn! I lost balance and fell back, gently and with great style, right on my ass. Here I am, all of my bits and pieces in the water and my legs being swallowed by quick sand. I worked to get my feet out of the suck, all the while trying to hang on to my rod. Eventually I got to my feet and started scanning the weeds for my fishy friend. I bent my rod gently and in doing so pulled my leader into a semi-straight line. I coould feel the fish still and I could see the hissy fit he was throwing in the growth. Laying down my rod I wrapped the leader around my hand and gently pulled him in. The trout was wrapped in so much plant material that he looked twice his actual size. I kept him in the water and slipped a wet hand under his belly. The weeds kept him still as I unhooked him and pointed him, nose first toward the center of the pond. I gathered my dignity and shlepped back to my car, my legs and shorts frosted in foul smelling green/brown goop. Well, there are no facilities at this place and I had nothing more than what I was wearing with me so I slipped out of my shorts and tshirt, put my shirt over the driver’s seat of my car and drove home wearing nothing but my Jockeys and a big smile. Upon my arrival, my wife didn’t inquire as to my condition or how it came to be. She gave me a totally unaffected look and asked me if I had had a good time. I told her that I had.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I spent the day fishing one of the back ponds out near Munson’s east of Boulder, CO. The current drought and a bit of local water politics has reduced many of these usually healthy potholes to small bowls of muddy, stringy soup. The hole I chose to visit today caught my eye via my ear when I heard loud slurping sounds coming from the ooze. I sat down on a clump of rye grass and watched some of the biggest lunker trout I’ve ever seen sucking bugs off of the surface, their backs complelety exposed to the air as they lay cradled in the thick weeds. I sat and I watched and I evaluated. Two big problems — 1.) the sea weed was very thick and left only small (maybe 4-5 ft. across) targets of clear (kind of) water in which to land a fly and 2.) the CO Fish and Game had encouraged aspens all along this particular bank leaving only a 10 by 10 ft "window" for me to shoot a line through. Normally I’d feel ok about a tight cast like that, but I was also standing 10-12 feet above the surface of the water which put my backcast up high and my front cast down sharply. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I tied on a #8 Dave’s hopper variant that I picked up in a general store in Ten Sleep, WY this summer. This version has gads of jangly rubber legs and makes all kind of ruckus on the surface when you twitch ‘em. I had no clue what they were sipping so I figured something juicy and big might bust them away from whatever hatch they were enjoying at the moment. So I sat some more and evaluated and while I did I began to realise that there was not a single sunfish or gilly or anything small at or near the water’s edge. it occurred to me that this pond had been shrinking for months and that anything small had been consumed by the elders in the water. This explained their size. Off in the distance, maybe 100 yds or so from my clump of grass were two blue herons standing in less than a foot of water. They were no doubt waiting patiently for one of these giants to glide by. I tried to imagine what that fight would look like. The scene in front of me was like an entire wildlife documentory but without the narrative. Truly unreal. So I decided it was time. I screeched off 20 or 30 feet of line from my little Princess and flicked the tippet end out toward the water. Two or three false casts swished through the air and — and this is god’s truth — I popped that little hopper right smack in the center of a clear spot in the water. I watched. I waited. I stripped in the slack and I waited some more. The water was so dark and so thick with growth that it was hard to see anything beneath the surface. I waited a minute or so and finally I gave her a twitch. My little bug pushed a bow-wave straight toward me and floated high on the water. Another ten seconds and I gave it another twitch. This time something thick and black and large rolled over and devoured my fly. I popped my wrist back and hooked up nicely. That fish — my fish — ran a slalom course through the weeds and tangled my leader 5 ways from Sunday. I stood up, fell and slid like a knothead down the bank and landed on my knees in the muck. But I still had a fish on! I stripped the slack that had formed from my fall and felt the leader knot hit the tip of my rod. I knew I was less than 9 feet from this fish and I wasn’t going to let a little slime stop me from landing him. What I didn’t plan on was the "lack of firmness" on the bottom of the pond. I stepped into the water — just a foot or so — and immediately felt the coolness of the mud slide deliciously up to my knees. I tried to step out and I felt one of my Teva’s come off my foot. Damn! I lost balance and fell back, gently and with great style, right on my ass. Here I am, all of my bits and pieces in the water and my legs being swallowed by quick sand. I worked to get my feet out of the suck, all the while trying to hang on to my rod. Eventually I got to my feet and started scanning the weeds for my fishy friend. I bent my rod gently and in doing so pulled my leader into a semi-straight line. I coould feel the fish still and I could see the hissy fit he was throwing in the growth. Laying down my rod I wrapped the leader around my hand and gently pulled him in. The trout was wrapped in so much plant material that he looked twice his actual size. I kept him in the water and slipped a wet hand under his belly. The weeds kept him still as I unhooked him and pointed him, nose first toward the center of the pond. I gathered my dignity and shlepped back to my car, my legs and shorts frosted in foul smelling green/brown goop. Well, there are no facilities at this place and I had nothing more than what I was wearing with me so I slipped out of my shorts and tshirt, put my shirt over the driver’s seat of my car and drove home wearing nothing but my Jockeys and a big smile. Upon my arrival, my wife didn’t inquire as to my condition or how it came to be. She gave me a totally unaffected look and asked me if I had had a good time. I told her that I had.

Is that you, Frank?

Response:

Question:

In little to know wind, you’ll be ok unless you’ve got a big bimini or hardtop to act as a sail.  I had a 28lb electric on the stern of a 20′ CC of 4000#s that was adequate in very light wind.  The light thrust was slow in starting or stopping, but worked fine once the mass got moving.  It was a high sided boat, so wind was a big problem if more than 10 knots.  Bow mounts are a lot easier to control and track better, so that would be preferrable to a stern mount.  I would have preferred a Bow mount of about 50 lbs, but did not want to incurr the cost of extra batteries and a new motor.  I already had the 28# motor from an earlier boat. BillS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone used an engine mounted trolling motor on a boat of at least 19′? I have a 19′ cc fishing boat that usually has three people aboard and I wonder if one 55lb thrust motor is anywhere enough to move the boat or should I double up with the motors. I’m looking at the Navigator dual 110 (2 motors). Any info will be appreciated. Thanks,,,Ted

Response:

Has anyone used an engine mounted trolling motor on a boat of at least 19′? I have a 19′ cc fishing boat that usually has three people aboard and I wonder if one 55lb thrust motor is anywhere enough to move the boat or should I double up with the motors. I’m looking at the Navigator dual 110 (2 motors). Any info will be appreciated. Thanks,,,Ted

Response:

I’m interested in this subject too, although I have a lowly 14′ bowrider.  I would very much like to have a trolling motor, since 90% of what we do is fishing, but to put one on the bow would impair the little space available, and there is no room on the stern. We normally boat on small lakes with little to no current. — "Stay calm.  Be brave.  Wait for the signs." regards, Frank Johansen Aurora, Ontario

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone used an engine mounted trolling motor on a boat of at least 19′? I have a 19′ cc fishing boat that usually has three people aboard and I wonder if one 55lb thrust motor is anywhere enough to move the boat or should I double up with the motors. I’m looking at the Navigator dual 110 (2 motors). Any info will be appreciated. Thanks,,,Ted

Response:

There are some who equate 12-15# of thrust to one horsepower, although the two units of measure aren’t really the same and that number can sure be argued with. If a 3 hp outboard is enough to do what you want in the trolling department, it might work. They are quiet and inobtrusive. Look at a Minn Kota.  http://www.minnkotamotors.com/ This unit sure wouldn’t get you home on that boat in the event your main engine goes out unless you have ideal water/current/wind conditions and a LOT of batteries.

Response:

Question:

Hi folks – PPRUNE also have some pics taken by Tech Crew of some BIG buildups http://www.pprune.com/ and choose "GALLERY" Martin . You may care to contact me with your email ad for a few pics I’ve taken at FL390 in Asia re: thunderstorms. Mike    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

The region of weather surrounding the earth is in the troposphere, the layer in which we live,and it extends up to the tropopause.  It is characterised by a temp lapse rate, ie, it gets colder as we ascend. After the tropopause the next layer, the stratosphere is considered to be isothermal. As has been stated , the tropopause ranges up around 18km in the low latitudes to around 8 km at the poles. It is not continueous and has significant discontinuities in the region of about 25 -30 degrees north and south latitude  and this is where the jet streams form. Back to the cloud then, convective types, the big cauliflower ones, can go up around 50000 ft in the equitorial regions associated with the wet season. This is the Intertropic Convergence Zone, the region where the northern and southern hemisphere airs meet and mix. This zone migrates north and south with the passage of the sun. To fly north this zone must always be penetrated and that is what we experience on a flight to south east asia from Aust. The zone is wide over the land masses of asia , png and an additional zone , the south pacific convergent zone is also generated and identified from PNG through the Solomon Isls area. The zone is quite narrow around Canton Island. (sometimes!!!) Although generally speaking flight above the tropopause brings smooth, clear sky, flying conditions it isn’t the most economic place to fly and on most occasions the flight is almost finished before the aeroplane is at the weight to climb to that level. In recent times the space shuttle has identified ‘clouds’ at the 40-50 mile high region, named ‘noctilucent cloud’ by NASA. These were first reported by astronauts in the pre moon and moon shots. Thought to be water vapour that has escaped the earths atmosphere via the breaks in the tropopause at the sub tropical high pressure belt region. ( thats the belt of high px that girdles the earth and lies over aust in the winter.) cowboy Before you buy.

Response:

Question for the Knucks    In big T/h and mission critical   do you adopt a "penetration speed" light the fires and Punch on through  or whats the current teaching.?

I think it’s something along the lines of  "Thunderstorm? Was that what that bump was?"

Response:

<snipped me own stuff So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy Before you buy.

Hiya Cowboy My understanding is that – at Adelaide at least – there is a separate CRT (or whatever they are) on which the weather radar is displayed onto. It is reasnably smaller than the main screen used for ATC, and sits above the operator being easliy visible at all times. It also displays atmospheric electrical activity issuing a warning tone once certain paramters are passed (EG frequency of activity in a certain range) – or so I believe – I have just gleaned this info from snooping the airbands & friends who have visited the ATC Centre – not from any 1st hand knowledge ) (maybe time for another visit – but then I’d HAVE TO GO TO MELBOURNE TO DO THAT !!!!!!  :-|  ) TTFN Ben Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

Response:

So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy

From a tech perspective… Current generation Australian ATC radar sensors have a weather channel and processor as well as the aircraft channel.  I can tell you the difference and how its done if your interested.  At the moment we aren’t sending wx info to the display system for various reasons, although that may be going to change.  The TAAATS displays are capable of displaying wx vectors but only at 3 or 4 intensities and at the moment I don’t believe the (wx intensity) levels are set to be able to differentiate storms.  The wx data is only available out to fifty NM from the sensor too.  The tech display at the sensor is capable of displaying (amongst other things, depending on how it is set up) fairly accurate wx pictures, however the data rates that would be required to present this at the centres make it impractical (read too expensive). Most centres (Presumably Perth is one of these Frank?) have RAPIC (Met wx radar) displays which are quite capable of displaying and differentiating storm cells- they actually display rainfall intensity. RAPIC sensors are at all capitals AFAIK plus various other places.  Here at Cooly the closest is Brisbane, which puts us right at the edge of range, and I’ve been told it’s not as useful as it could be.  You’ll have seen a RAPIC type display on some of the TV weather reports- they call it their ‘colour wx radar’ or some such. Sorry to jump in Frank… JM — If one synchronised swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Take out the zigzag or you’ll miss us…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Frank & others Indeed your right about ATC accomodating traffic diversions Frank. I was listening to Adelaide App/Dep and Centre one Sunday night while a row of TS went through ADL (listening on my scanner that is – tucked up in bed where VFR Pilot’s should be on such a night:-)   ) A Bae146 departed ADL for MEL and very soon after takeoff reported that his WX radar had failed. With  the assistance of ATC ground based WX radar and reports from other a/c,   ATC managed to steer this 146 left and right and all over the place clear of buildups until he was about 100DME east. Always interesting listening when times are busy and WX is bad TTFN

So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy Before you buy.

Response:

Question for the Knucks    In big T/h and mission critical   do you adopt a "penetration speed" light the fires and Punch on through  or whats the current teaching.?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to disagree with you on this one cowboy. Reseachers in Meteorology have three favorite sites for thunderstorm research, Belgium Congo, Amazon Basin and Darwin. I visited a joint US/Australian research program in Darwin in the early 90’s and I cannot remember the exact numbers but in January they were getting daily CB tops over FL450. and occasionally in the 60’s. The reason for Darwin selection is the consistent formation (Hector was mentioned in another post) and the good vertical buildups. These programs are still conducted almost on a annual basis from around December to March and comprise widely displaced  radar, lightning detection and sonde flights along with fixed wing aircraft when they can afford them. The aircraft costs and risks is one of the reasons for the development of the Aerosonde (see http://www.aerosonde.com/aerora_home.htm  ) and UAV type aircraft will be used more and more in future for weather related research. No way you will get me in a C130 or Orion crunching through thunderstorms. (Crunching is the operative word) <snip IWe don’t have as much moisture in the atmosphere in Aust to generated the conditions that you describe. It could have been a mature ’supercell’ thunderstorm but even though it looked black dark and horrible it was not in the immediate path of the departing traffic. Brian G

Response:

Frank Paterson said..  FP Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. Yes, I know. It’s just that I hate lightning. Silly paranoia I know..  FP It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the  FP vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still One of the most tense moments of my travelling life was a final into JFK during winter, 1996. Most of the descent was in cloud/fog, and it was rough all the way. When we touched down, and began slowing, you could almost hear the tension slide away, and not a few pax actually applauded. Like you said, it must be hell for those who do have a genuine fear of flying. .. Be nice to your kids. They’ll choose your nursing home. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia.

When I was working in Darwin NASA had their E2 (or U2 if you wish) and a Herc (or perhaps Orion – memory fade) doing data gathering on tropical storms. The E2 used to fly on top of the CBs and the poor old turboprop had to go into the guts of it. The E2 advised one afternoon that they were 5000 ft above the highest anvil they had ever seen and they were at FL690. On another note, a Flight Service Officer asked the E2 for his actual level for traffic purposes and he stated if you get anything above FL600 let me know and I’ll give the traffic my level. Alan

Response:

Frank Paterson said..  FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re  FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm. For those who’ve never experienced tropical thunderstorms, it was one of the scariest moments of our lives. I could have sworn that the Dash 8 (I think it was) was hit as it rotated. It wasn’t pleasant driving in it, either. We waited at the airport till the storm cleared. I’ve never seen so much rain and lightning than in a summer Florida storm before. .. 5 out of 3 people have problems with fractions MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. You can take some small comfort from the fact that at high altitudes (the altitudes we were talking about, jet cruising altitudes) you are usually in the clear and can see the cells.  Also, jet aircraft are usually fitted with weather radar so even if the aircraft is not in the clear, the pilot can usually "see" the storm on the radar and divert around it.  ATC can usually accommodate a diversion to avoid turbulance.   It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still accommodate diversions but it’s more difficult and traffic flows may suffer as a result.   The decision to land or depart when there is a thunderstorm in the immediate vicinity of an airport is a joint pilot-ATC responsibility. ATC is responsible for runway selection and providing as much info as possible to the pilot.  The ultimate go/no-go decision is the pilot’s. Smaller, and especially propellor driven aircraft (your Dash 8 in Florida), are generally less susceptible to wind shear and may go where a larger jet will not. If a pilot chooses to go it will be because he asses it as safe.  It will not necessarily be comfortable!  I’m aware that is of little consolation to people who suffer a fear of flying, etc.  Passengers’ comfort and their perception of the airline company and its performance may form part of the pilot’s go/no-go decision.  We (ATC) don’t consider that at all – not our job. Cheers Frank Frank Paterson said.. FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm.

The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia. When I was working in Darwin NASA had their E2 (or U2 if you wish) and a Herc (or perhaps Orion – memory fade) doing data gathering on tropical storms. The E2 used to fly on top of the CBs and the poor old turboprop had to go into the guts of it. The E2 advised one afternoon that they were 5000 ft above the highest anvil they had ever seen and they were at FL690. On another note, a Flight Service Officer asked the E2 for his actual level for traffic purposes and he stated if you get anything above FL600 let me know and I’ll give the traffic my level. Alan

The second anecdote suggests the accuracy of the first. These posts are getting like fishing stories. Is there anybody reading from the BOM or Guinness book of record lies to adjudicate. cowboy Before you buy.

Response:

Frank Paterson said..  FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re  FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm. For those who’ve never experienced tropical thunderstorms, it was one of the scariest moments of our lives. I could have sworn that the Dash 8 (I think it was) was hit as it rotated. It wasn’t pleasant driving in it, either. We waited at the airport till the storm cleared. I’ve never seen so much rain and lightning than in a summer Florida storm before.

The major airports in the USA are now fitted with LLWAS Low Level Wind Shear Alert  Systems utilising doppler weather radar that defines the heart of the shear and the position of it to the or an active runway. It gives a clear warning to the tower operator.There is no way an aeroplane would take off into such a storm if the alert system gave a warning. No pilot would take off into the heart of a cell. In Australia we recall the loss of the Vickers Viscount that was lost at the mouth of Botany Bay. The Sec general of the UN, Dag hammersjold ??? was lost in the Belgium Congo in the same situation. We don’t have as much moisture in the atmosphere in Aust to generated the conditions that you describe. It could have been a mature ’supercell’ thunderstorm but even though it looked black dark and horrible it was not in the immediate path of the departing traffic. They don’t pay enough for a pilot to take off into such a storm and in answer to Frank P’s post, no pilot would take off into one just to maintain the perceived passenger image of his airline……. and would the pax want him too. cowboy Before you buy.

Response:

There have been T-storms in Oklahoma with recored tops at over 75000 ft and I don’t know of any higher that have been reported but the best weather radar equipment in the world is there so it could be theres higher storms where no one is looking. The atomsphere where storms from is about 20,000 ft at the poles to about 60,000 ft at the equator.  Of course there are exceptions and they build storms that eat trailer parks. -tim http://web.abnormal.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My old Met instructor Billy Ware went to great lengths to explain that storms have a greater capacity for vertical growth the closer you get to the equator. This is due to the greater height of the atmosphere at the equator, which in turn is related to its higher rotational velocity than the atmosphere at the poles. Generally storms are limited by the tropopause. Which is definitely higher the closer you get to the equator.

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Hi Frank & others Indeed your right about ATC accomodating traffic diversions Frank. I was listening to Adelaide App/Dep and Centre one Sunday night while a row of TS went through ADL (listening on my scanner that is – tucked up in bed where VFR Pilot’s should be on such a night:-)   ) A Bae146 departed ADL for MEL and very soon after takeoff reported that his WX radar had failed. With  the assistance of ATC ground based WX radar and reports from other a/c,   ATC managed to steer this 146 left and right and all over the place clear of buildups until he was about 100DME east. Always interesting listening when times are busy and WX is bad TTFN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. You can take some small comfort from the fact that at high altitudes (the altitudes we were talking about, jet cruising altitudes) you are usually in the clear and can see the cells.  Also, jet aircraft are usually fitted with weather radar so even if the aircraft is not in the clear, the pilot can usually "see" the storm on the radar and divert around it.  ATC can usually accommodate a diversion to avoid turbulance.   It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still accommodate diversions but it’s more difficult and traffic flows may suffer as a result.   The decision to land or depart when there is a thunderstorm in the immediate vicinity of an airport is a joint pilot-ATC responsibility. ATC is responsible for runway selection and providing as much info as possible to the pilot.  The ultimate go/no-go decision is the pilot’s. Smaller, and especially propellor driven aircraft (your Dash 8 in Florida), are generally less susceptible to wind shear and may go where a larger jet will not. If a pilot chooses to go it will be because he asses it as safe.  It will not necessarily be comfortable!  I’m aware that is of little consolation to people who suffer a fear of flying, etc.  Passengers’ comfort and their perception of the airline company and its performance may form part of the pilot’s go/no-go decision.  We (ATC) don’t consider that at all – not our job. Cheers Frank

Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

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Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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the big towering storms up north in the wet often reach towards 50 000ft.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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Generally, if it has lightning in it, then it will go up a long way…. JB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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We were on cruise a few years back on the way to Bangkok from Melb around 39,000 ft when we entered a violent thunderstorm and the plane was hit but seemed to emerge totally undamaged. We were surrounded by storms all with tops way higher than us. Bernie Samms Kingston Beach Tasmania Australia Aero Club of Southern Tasmania   www.acst.com.au Prologic Pty Ltd                           www.prologic.com.au

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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the big towering storms up north in the wet often reach towards 50 000ft.

I thought I’d heard mention of storm tops to 75 0000ft when I was in Isa, but then I’m Tech not Met so I wouldn’t be sure… — If one synchronised swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Take out the zigzag or you’ll miss us…

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A friend of mine was recently flying a corporate jet at 47,000 somewhere between Broom and Alice Springs, bound for Sydney.  They diverted around the top of a storm by what should have been an adequate margin but copped lateral gusts.  The envelope for there aircraft is not big up there and the airspeed fluctuations required *very* urgent descent.  I think he said they got a stall warning and almost a stick shaker. So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re significant. Cheers Frank Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up?

The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

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Martin . You may care to contact me with your email ad for a few pics I’ve taken at FL390 in Asia re: thunderstorms. Mike    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

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My old Met instructor Billy Ware went to great lengths to explain that storms have a greater capacity for vertical growth the closer you get to the equator. This is due to the greater height of the atmosphere at the equator, which in turn is related to its higher rotational velocity than the atmosphere at the poles. Generally storms are limited by the tropopause. Which is definitely higher the closer you get to the equator. My experience was that if Bill said it then generally it was true.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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Question:

Got to go out for a few hours today. It was notable in the fact that of three folks fishing that little puddle of water I was the only one catching. Why? Well could it be due to the fact that I was FLY FISHING?!?! Heh.

(great trip report snipped) Michael – this confirms my experience that some interesting fishing can be found in the oddest places – we just need to be alert to the opportunity. Mark Faulkner

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Michael – this confirms my experience that some interesting fishing can be found in the oddest places – we just need to be alert to the opportunity. Mark Faulkner

Too true! I know this one spot that looks alright and it right off of route 42 after the Walt Whitman Bridge just before the turn off for Deptford Mall. Right under one of the over passes. I think I am gonna try it this summer! — Michael Era

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        i would have preferred to send this communication on an email basis;  but we are too many for that.         finally, i hope that i am not too late to change the mind of one of the best of us; i hope that our english will reconsider, and stand with the rest of us, from timbo to jimbo, to….(god help me) ralph h,

God has helped me and I am sure he will help you as well.. Ralph H

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<A bunch of nice stuff Usenet tradition addresses a good many of the problems that led to our brouhaha. I’m going to append the Welcome to Usenet from news.announce.newusers. Anyone that comes to a Usenet newsgroup should be able to expect a level of respect and decorum. Everyone from an 11 year old looking at flyfishing for the first time to a 60 year old with a closet full of degrees. We shoot the bull, swap tall tales and start to feel like we’re the Famous Grouse Good Old Boy’s Club, but we’re not. We are a Usenet newsgroup and in a junior high computer lab somewhere an 11 year old is getting a decidedly unfair advantage over his peers. I mean, imagine, swearing lessons from the great George Gehrke himself delivered straight to the screen. The kid will be a scourge and I hope his mom doesn’t ask where he learned that ! "The resources of civilization against its enemies are not exhausted."                                                         -Gladstone- Ken Fortenberry Welcome to Usenet!  The newsgroup news.announce.newusers contains a lot of introductory information about Usenet.  All new users should read and fully understand all the documents in news.announce.newusers before trying to post messages to Usenet or create new Usenet groups.  This may take a while, but it will help you find your way around Usenet much more easily. This short message is repeated three times a week to ensure that it is always available on your news system.  All other documents in news.announce.newusers are repeated every two weeks and should stay around for at least a month.  If you find news.announce.newusers empty (or cannot figure out how to read documents in it), please contact the help desk, customer support or news administrator on the computer system or service that you’re using and ask them for help.  Please do not send me e-mail asking for help reading news on your computer system or service. Please do not try to post or send any messages to news.announce.newusers. This is the list of the documents that news.announce.newusers should contain:         What is Usenet?         What is Usenet?  A second opinion.         Rules for posting to Usenet         Hints on writing style for Usenet         A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community         Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette         How to find the right place to post (FAQ)         Introduction to news.announce         A Guide to Social Newsgroups and Mailing Lists         Introduction to the *.answers newsgroups         FAQs about FAQs         Anonymous FTP: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) List         Advertising on Usenet: How To Do It, How Not To Do It         Copyright Myths FAQ: 10 big myths about copyright explained         Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet         How to Get Information about Networks         How to become a Usenet site         Usenet Software: History and Sources         Guidelines on Usenet Newsgroup Names         How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup If you don’t see any of these documents in the newsgroup, you can ask for them by sending mail to with the following in the body of the message.  Note the address carefully; please do NOT send these requests to me. setdir usenet-by-group/news.announce.newusers send What_is_Usenet? send What_is_Usenet?__A_second_opinion. send Rules_for_posting_to_Usenet send Hints_on_writing_style_for_Usenet send A_Primer_on_How_to_Work_With_the_Usenet_Community send Emily_Postnews_Answers_Your_Questions_on_Netiquette send How_to_find_the_right_place_to_post_(FAQ) send Introduction_to_news.announce send A_Guide_to_Social_Newsgroups_and_Mailing_Lists send Introduction_to_the_*.answers_newsgroups send FAQs_about_FAQs send Anonymous_FTP:_Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ)_List send Advertising_on_Usenet:_How_To_Do_It,_How_Not_To_Do_It send Copyright_Myths_FAQ:_10_big_myths_about_copyright_explained send Answers_to_Frequently_Asked_Questions_about_Usenet send FAQ:_How_to_find_people_s_E-mail_addresses send How_to_Get_Information_about_Networks send How_to_become_a_Usenet_site send Usenet_Software:_History_and_Sources send Guidelines_on_Usenet_Newsgroup_Names send How_to_Create_a_New_Usenet_Newsgroup quit You can also find these documents on the World Wide Web;  see         http://www.netannounce.org/news.announce.newusers/

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        some observations:  it appears to me, unscientifically, that the postings to this group have undergone a massive increase in the last couple months.  the influx of newcomers has included some very bizarre, often unpleasant contributors.  many of the newbies have failed to understand (understandably) some of george gerkhe’s posts, and the wierdness thereof.  confrontations have been engendered thereby.  furthermore, the tendency of many to engage in what i will always contend are the only taboos (politics and religion) have contributed to the confrontational atmosphere.  this is a wonderful, but fragile, environment.  by my best count, there are more than fifty souls that emit consistently high levels of humor, insight, information, life advice, and all around bullshit, on a daily basis. many of us have made friends here.         but growth carries with it certain problems.  some folks don’t assimilate as comfortably as others.  some folks have no patience with the foibles of others, others who are fixtures in this group.  there comes a time when we must deal with the changes wrought by growth. one of those times has come, today.  one of the most intelligent, witty, and general good guys i have ever known has announced his intention to resign from this group.  that is truly unfortunate.  all of us hope that he will reconsider, find patience, and stay.  surely, though, this is a sufficient sign that we must discipline ourselves in the areas of communication that are most disruptive of the general good:  politics, and spam.         in short, we must call upon george to cease his relentless spamming.  i have come to consider the man a friend of mine; but we can no longer wink at george’s excesses while tearing the stranger limb from limb for less offensive posts.         i would have preferred to send this communication on an email basis;  but we are too many for that.           finally, i hope that i am not too late to change the mind of one of the best of us; i hope that our english will reconsider, and stand with the rest of us, from timbo to jimbo, from ken to ken, from charlie to yankee dave, from snedeker to the royal wulff, from fletcher (who is too silent for our own good) to (god help me) ralph h, to jon, the father of us all.  from waldo and john (not ever annis) popp, and all the rest of us,  the waynes and mark, and tom…         stick with us, connor. wayno  

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Question:

hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

Greg, Anywhere on Century Drive late August should be fantastic! I love Hosmer, Sparks and the Sheeps Bridge area on the Deschutes Arm of Wickiup. The Browns start to move up into the Deschutes preparing to spawn and early morning and evening fishing can be incredible. I once saw a gentleman from Bend fishing the oxbow bend below the guard station accross from Twin Lakes release a ten pound brown with the comment that "you can only keep two fish and you want them to be good ones".(actually, they all should be released!)I was afraid to let my setter in the water there because of the size of the fish rolling everywhere. You should have Brooks at Sparks, Brooks and Atlantics at Hosmer, Kocs and Rainbow at Craine Prairie, and Browns in Wickiup all easily within your 50 mile radius. The area is Magic!!!!! Enjoy. Tight Lines  Jean

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hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

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hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

Below are from my own personal experiences over about 15 years.   Others may well have different opinions. Wickiup Reservoir: kokanee during the day, BIG browns in evening.  (Look at pictures at Twin Lakes Store on the way in.)  Get on the lake early and expect high winds to blow you off between 11:00am and 1:00pm.  Usually calm down about sundown. Lava Lake: lots of trout; brookies and rainbows. Hosmer Lake (fly fishing only): large brook trout, catch and release Atlantic Salmon. Upper Deschutes River (between Lava and Crane Prairie): brookies and rainbows. Upper Deschutes River (between Wickiup and Pringle Falls): rainbows and browns; take dirt road between Pringle Falls and Wickiup and fish from shore, or find a place to launch boat, somewhere.  (I float tube it – 2 1/2 hour drift). Paulina Lake and East Lake (both in Newberry Crater – make a side trip to the observation point for the view and information about the crater, well worth it). Paulina: large browns in very early morning, kokanee later – usually very clear water and beautiful setting; East Lake: mostly for large rainbow and browns, high mercury content in water (natural, not man made), so read warnings. Davis Lake (fly fishing only): large rainbows. Cultus Lake: Huge Lake Trout, but hard to catch, and many water skiers. Cultus River looks likely, but the water is full of natural sulfer and there are no fish in it. As a general rule, forget: Elk Lake, Twin Lakes, Fall River, Little Lava Lake, unless you are with someone who is experienced with them. Good luck. — Max Max Whittington Investigations Beaverton (Portland), Oregon http://www.inetarena.com/~mwi

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Davis Lake (fly fishing only): large rainbows. Cultus Lake: Huge Lake Trout, but hard to catch, and many water skiers. Cultus River looks likely, but the water is full of natural sulfer and there are no fish in it. As a general rule, forget: Elk Lake, Twin Lakes, Fall River, Little Lava Lake, unless you are with someone who is experienced with them. Good luck. — Max Max Whittington Investigations Beaverton (Portland), Oregon http://www.inetarena.com/~mwi

Also, try getting a map and if you don’t mind a few miles of washboard dirt road try Little Cultus lake.  The fish aren’t big but they’re plentiful and pretty easy to catch ; ) rn

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jFirst off 1 day a Crane will not do it or yourself justice. I would plan for at least 2 or 3 days unless you are really pressed for time. Big Lava Lake is near there and is another excellent trout lake. Give it a try too. hello all- i am going on a vacation to the oregon cascades in a couple of weeks and i am looking for any suggestions on where to fish for trout. i will be taking my uncle and cousin- both beginners. we already plan to spend at least one day on crane prairie- anywhere else come to mind, say within 50 miles or so? thanks a million, greg

– No mans property is safe when congress is in session…

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H

Ralph has some good points,especially about avoiding level lines.  They are a total waste of money, plus cause casting problems and bad casting habits that take years to get rid of.  The less expensive Orvis Clearwater lines, and the SA beginner lines actually make casting easier for novices because of their short front taper design.  They turns over flys more easily.  The sacrifice delicacy in doing so, but usually a novice’s casting skills aren’t too delicate anyway and they help the cast extend.  As your skills improve, you will probably want to buy a better line before you wear one of these out. While some people have a tough time learning on a fast action or tip-flex rod, I’d hesitate to recommend a full-flex (soft action) rod for a beginner. In 1987 as we started changing the rods in the Orvis West Coast Schools from the full-flex Superfine Limestone Special to the mid-flex "Western Series Spring Creek" we had both types available for a while for our students.  Students would race to get the Western Series rods because they were easier to cast without throwing tailing loops.  Shortly thereafter we replaced all the full flex rods with the Western Series.  I should note we teach a forearm based stroke in our casting programs (both Orvis WC and my own schools) which works very well with this type of rod.  When people first start out the most common mistake is to use too much wrist often snapping it in mid stroke which almost ivariably overdrives the tip and causes tailing loops.  The mid to tip flex rods eliminate a lot of this problem because it is harder to overdrive the tip with this kind of design.  It can still be done, but is a more forgiving (of mistakes) action for beginners. Still, you need to cast the rods to see which ones you like.                            Good Luck,                                      Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools Mt. Shasta Fly Fishing Schools http://www.thegrid.net/flyfish

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I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

If you are new, next to nothing.  At first, you probably won’t be able to tell the difference between a $60 outfit and a $500 rod.  Take your outfit out, fish with it, beat it up, make mistakes, break a tip, slip on a rock and break the handle off the reel (done that), but go fishing.  In a year or so, go to a fly shop and cast various rods once you’ve got the hang of things. If you can tell the difference and like the difference buy what you can afford.  If you can’t tell the difference or don’t like the difference stick with what you have or buy another one. I started out with a $15 rod/reel combo.  It cast like a broomstick, but it was what I could afford and caught fish. When I actually had money, I knew how to cast and could feel the difference in the actions of various rods and bought a reasonable quality rod/reel.  Plus when I fell on that rock and busted my reel I didn’t worry about it (much). My $0.02,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Well the feel of the rod and its ability to case by improving transfer of energy to the line.  Oh I almost forgot the most important part, to demonstrate your dedication to the sport by showing others that you sent a reasonable sum of cash.  The person who spent the most has the best zen in fly fishing the rest is just for fun.  So I suggest that you peal the name off your rod and turn your reel in a lath and tell folks it is a two grand custom rig from Scotland this will impress them and the fish.  Or you could spend your time fishing and simply enjoying your surroundings and the sport.   good luck and get out and spend or fish. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, and if nothing else, the people on this newsgroup have been very friendly in sharing information for a beginner. So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable? Thanks, Monte P.S. To reply via email, remove the ".dot" from my email address.

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Monte Porche wrote [snip] Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?  (Other than broke. <grin)  What makes those rods that much more valuable?

My guess is you’re probably right in going with the less expensive outfit to begin with.  I think you have to flyfish for awhile before you can start to appreciate some of the performance advantages of a more expensive rod. After you’ve gotten to the point where your casting effectively (not necessarily great … but effectively), try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).  Rod speed is a factor that is important to many people – this refers to speed of casting movement which most "naturally" optimizes the cast for a particular rod.  Some people like fast rods, some like slow ones, it’s a matter of personal preference.  It’s also an issue you probably shouldn’t worry about until you have some experience … learn how to deal with the rod you have and you’ll be better able to feel the differences in performance of other rods. Also, these days, many of the more expensive rods come with a lifetime, no-questions-asked guarantee.  What this really means is that part of the price you pay is really group benefit rod insurance.  (If you fish a lot, you’ll probably make a claim sooner or later yourself!). —                                                       -dnc-

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All of the replies so far have been good. Heres my addition: The difference between low cost vs higher cost is nearly always a direct relationship between low quality vs. better quality, sophistication and performance. If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive this!" The point is it’s better off starting with the basics. You’ve started out fine. Have fun. Don M. J.Kennedy Fisherto a Loomisto a Winstonto a W. Powellto a ??

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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If so, I’ve got to get me one of those. Dana

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

It’s not how expensive your rod is, it’s what you do with it that counts.  :-)      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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try finding some fishing buddies who’ll let you try a few casts with their more expensive rods … or see if the flyshop you frequent will let you try casting a few of the rods they sell.  You may find some will perform better (then again, maybe not).

Don’t do this!!! If you do you may end up in the same boat with the rest of us. A poor flyfisherman with alot of snazzy tackle and a wife who shakes her head with alarming frequency; as they say ignorance is bliss. Of course I never follow my own advice either. T.G. Mittler

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: If you had just started driving (let’s say), perhaps you would never have : realized that a Ferrari F355 could be so much more enjoyable than a Toyota : Tercel (no offense intended, Tercel owners).  They both serve the same basic : transportation purpose. Yet if you had started with the Ferrari, you might have : said it’s "Hey it’s too twitchy, too hard to press in the clutch pedal thing, : and when I press the accelerator the car goes wild! Nobody would wanna drive : this!" I understand the point ArtDrectr is making and for many, it probably works.  But not for me, and here is why.  Automobiles are sophisticated pieces of machinery and involve many parts that must work together. Significant design and engineering is required and many, many decisions made along the way to the market.   A graphite rod is very different.  It has a couple of numbers that characterize the performance and it is not difficult to change these numbers to make a rod.  For example, look at catalogs or talk to experienced fisherfolk… they will tell you a particular rod is soft or stiff, or at most describe 3 different types of flex.  A second factor is the weight, but that is about it.  That’s really all that matters.  (Well, durability too, but the guarantee should cover that.) As you get more experienced, you might move into a personal preference for a particular rod and if it matters much to you, spend the money.  For now, you done good with the cheap outfit.  As you gain experience, take the opportunity to try every rod you can, and see if you prefer other rods.  I suspect you will find rods that might be a bit less stiff than your current rod and you will definitely find rods that weigh less.  Pay attention to these things, but trust your judgement.  Your initial suspicions are right on. And by all means, send your kids to a good school before you spend your extra cash on expensive rods.  That is something that really makes a difference. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Don M. made the analogy of expensive flyrods/cheap flyrods to cheap cars/sports cars.  My question is this – Will a Winston or a Thomas & Thomas get you laid? Pete C

        maybe not; but you’ll feel like it’s happenin when you lay out line with either one.         a. wayne harrison

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What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?

The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they will replace it.  I buy blanks and build my own rods, its a little cheaper, sometimes still get the guarantee,  put the same grip on all my rods (everythng must have the Fenwick style).  Its pretty easy once you get the hang of it, and its a good way to spend the off season. I’d fish the $60 outfit until the thing falls apart.  I’ve got more rods than you can swing a stick at and I always use the same two.  One of them is the first rod I built.  Good Luck. Patrick  

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: : What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get : me? : The extra $250 gets you a guarantee.  Slam the tip in the car door and they : will replace it.   Redington offers a replacement guarantee for a little over $100 complete, $70 blank. The 5-6 wt. is a fine rod. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m very, very new to fly fishing, So, I went to our local fly shop, and was browsing around, and I saw something that floored me….the rods they were selling were in the $300 and up range… Now, I bought a fly rod and reel combo, that came with line, backing, leader, and a few flies for less than $60.00. What, exactly, does the extra $250.00 or more for a rod get me?   Hi Monte, One of the key things to keep in mind is that if you can’t tell the difference, it doesn’t make any difference to you. By the same token, junk is junk and a waste of money, *time* and *effort*, no matter how cheap it is.  A lot of folks start fly fishing buying the cheapest stuff they can find, slap it together, and try to make it work.  I did the same thing and spent 2 1/2 frustrating years trying to make a piece of junk work that just plane wouldn’t – it was bad equipment.

…while this was sound advice beware of the impression that all the problems you may have starting out is due to the lower cost equipment you purchased. No matter how much is spent on the rod everyone has to learn how to cast. In my experience even lower cost rods are fine for this – often their ’slower’ characteristics are more forgiving to the beginner. While the line is the most important part of the tackle – many of the lower priced lines available – ie the Sci Anglers Aircel lines, are quite alright. Basically the same line they sold for 2x the price a decade or two ago. But beware cheap off brands, particulary level lines. If the line has no brand name on it and you can’t detect it getting thicker as you move up the tip several feet, you should throw it away or keep it for trolling. Ralph H note spurious hyperbole, insults and ‘personal attacks’ made by the author are meant to honour "the Soul of Cicero" and are not intended as personal slights. Please don’t take offense as none is intended. remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Question:

ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON GOOD AREAS/SPOTS ALONG THE DEERFIELD OR MILLERS RIVER FOR FLYFISHING?  HOW ABOUT FOR SPIN FISHING? Thanks,

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ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON GOOD AREAS/SPOTS ALONG THE DEERFIELD OR MILLERS RIVER FOR FLYFISHING?  HOW ABOUT FOR SPIN FISHING? Thanks,

millers … read all about it in this month’s new england fish and game. $2.50   available at  most magazine shops.   complete details on where to park, fish , etc. lexington, ma. 02173

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Question:

I’ve read that nylon pantyhose makes a great shuck imitation.   -Clyde

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I’ve read that nylon pantyhose makes a great shuck imitation.  

And, its great fun to watch them get taken off!

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I’m a lover of spring creek midge fishing.  While I’m doing well on my pupae, I still can’t find a dry pattern that will consistently (or even semi-regularly) fool the surface sippers..  The thing I’m looking for is a

Check Gary LaFoine’s book "The Dry Fly", in it he has a pattern called the Buzz Ball that is suppose to imitated a midge cluster on the surface like one would see on some back water on the San Juan or similar river. good luck Mark Powers Boston

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I’m a lover of spring creek midge fishing.  While I’m doing well on my pupae, I still can’t find a dry pattern that will consistently (or even semi-regularly) fool the surface sippers..  The thing I’m looking for is a pattern that imitates  the midge during those few seconds that it sits dry on the surface, but is still attached to the shuck…apparently the moment of greatest vulnerability.  Both the midge and the shuck or on the surface (shuck may be in the film). Anyone had good luck with a pattern of this type?

I am wondering if a double tippet could be made to the midge a few inches from the shuck?   Put a hook in both if the trout cannot make up its mind.  Be interesting to see if the shuck or the midge get hit on most often. here a change to come up with a new pattern.  And we wonder where did they all come from.  :-)   Happy new year!

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The thing I’m looking for is a pattern that imitates  the midge during those

 few seconds that it sits dry on the surface, but is still attached to the shuck… I use your typical Griffith’s Gnat tied w/ a small plume of grey CDC feathers as a tail to imitate the trailing shuck.

Yours virtually, Gary W. Godden Denver, Colorado

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a lover of spring creek midge fishing.  While I’m doing well on my pupae, I still can’t find a dry pattern that will consistently (or even semi-regularly) fool the surface sippers..  The thing I’m looking for is a pattern that imitates  the midge during those few seconds that it sits dry on the surface, but is still attached to the shuck…apparently the moment of greatest vulnerability.  Both the midge and the shuck or on the surface (shuck may be in the film). Anyone had good luck with a pattern of this type? I am wondering if a double tippet could be made to the midge a few inches from the shuck?   Put a hook in both if the trout cannot make up its mind.  Be interesting to see if the shuck or the midge get hit on most often. here a change to come up with a new pattern.  And we wonder where did they all come from.  :-)   Happy new year!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Out here in Colorado we use something called a Stuck-In -Shuck midge.  It’s a good slow-water fly on the South Platte where winter trout seem to sometimes prefer emerging midges over full adults. The dressing is simple.  The tail, or "shuck" is a few strands of brown antron, or Z-lon. the body is thread, or peacock.  A few strands of white antron, Z-lon, or poly are tied in at the butt, and pulled over the body. This should be a little on the loose side, creating a kind of bubble.  Some people put a couple wraps of grizzly hackle, trimmed top, and bottom in front for better floatation.  This fly should be dressed to let the fly float in the film. I don’t know who dreamt this fly up, but I think it’s a pretty good one! Chaz — Chaz Clover Fly Tier, Fly Design, Riverkeeper.

I fish the tiny spring creeks in WI and the best surface/film pattern that I have tried is nothing radical: Griffith’s Gnat. I tie it on a size 22 wide gap 1XF hook. Peacock Body (short flue, taken from near the butt rather than the eye) and Top Quality (Hoffman) Grizzly also short (no longer than to point). Fished on 6X tippet with silicon paste applied on 3 inches about 6 inches from the fly. this: a. keeps it on top, b. if you position yourself just right it acts a an indicator, and c. allows the fly to move naturally. I don’t apply floatant to the fly as it makes it ride too high causing for short hits. Quarter it upstream and dead drift. Good Luck.

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: I’m a lover of spring creek midge fishing.  While I’m doing well on my : pupae, I still can’t find a dry pattern that will consistently (or even : semi-regularly) fool the surface sippers..  The thing I’m looking for is a : pattern that imitates  the midge during those few seconds that it sits dry : on the surface, but is still attached to the shuck…apparently the moment : of greatest vulnerability.  Both the midge and the shuck or on the surface : (shuck may be in the film). : Anyone had good luck with a pattern of this type? I do quite a bit of midge fishing, especially late in the season as it gets colder.  I’ve found that a #26 or 28 works very well for the large (but oh so rare) browns here in VT.  I don’t use a trailing shuck pattern, however.  I use a simple black or red thread body (no tail) with a grizzly, black, or cream hackle.  The red body is easy to spot, and it seems to work!  I rarely get refused with this pattern, and it’s very simple to tie.  In addition, it feeds my growing opinion that the presentation is (slightly?) more important than the fly choice (please, no flame wars on this one, both are important!)   I don’t usually fish this one blind, and not at long distances (usually about 20-25′).  I find that 7 or 8X tippets make sense, as well as a challenge for a big fish. Hans

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I’m a lover of spring creek midge fishing.  While I’m doing well on my pupae, I still can’t find a dry pattern that will consistently (or even semi-regularly) fool the surface sippers..  The thing I’m looking for is a pattern that imitates  the midge during those few seconds that it sits dry on the surface, but is still attached to the shuck…apparently the moment of greatest vulnerability.  Both the midge and the shuck or on the surface (shuck may be in the film). Anyone had good luck with a pattern of this type?

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Out here in Colorado we use something called a Stuck-In -Shuck midge.  It’s a good slow-water fly on the South Platte where winter trout seem to sometimes prefer emerging midges over full adults. The dressing is simple.  The tail, or "shuck" is a few strands of brown antron, or Z-lon. the body is thread, or peacock.  A few strands of white antron, Z-lon, or poly are tied in at the butt, and pulled over the body. This should be a little on the loose side, creating a kind of bubble.  Some people put a couple wraps of grizzly hackle, trimmed top, and bottom in front for better floatation.  This fly should be dressed to let the fly float in the film. I don’t know who dreamt this fly up, but I think it’s a pretty good one! Chaz — Chaz Clover Fly Tier, Fly Design, Riverkeeper.

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Question:

We are new to flyfishing in Colorado and are looking for a few suggestions as to what rivers or lakes are good and have public access.  Suggestions on patterns and sizes would also be helpful.   We are also looking into a trip to the Madison river in Montana later this summer and were wondering what other rivers we might try in Montana and Wyoming.  Again patterns and sizes would be helpful. We’ve just started reading this news group–sorry if these are redundant questions. Thanks in advance for the help, Greg Clemson Jennifer Marshall

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We are also looking into a trip to the Madison river in Montana later this summer and were wondering what other rivers we might try in Montana and Wyoming.

Don’t pass up the Green River in Utah, below the Flaming Gorge Dam!

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