Question:

there’s a chance some smaller schoolie stripers will still be in the river. Shad will most likely be gone, but the smallmouth action should be fantastic. Oh yeah, when Rick and I got to the dock on Sunday afternoon " Dock Lady " ( you have to meet her in person, words can’t really adequetly describe her ) … Is she the one who is in the last Sage catalog ?

Haven’t seen the latest Sage catalog but I can guarantee that’s not her.

Response:

Fishing out of Fletchers Sunday and Monday: lots of BIG hickory shad, caught on the outgoing tide-using Teeny 250 or 300 lines, 6′ hunk of 12lb test Maxima for a leader ( God bless Maxima but I hate those fucking archaic spools theyl put the stuff on ) casting slightly upstream and usually getting a hit on the start of the swing. Flies on the small side-size 6 to 8 clousers with short tails-white with gold flash and chartruese with gold flash . I was getting alot of misses till I chopped off the tails to within about 3/8" of the hook bend , after that it was Heaven.Last cast of the day Monday I hooked an American shad, about 3 or 4 times the size and heft of the hickories. Last couple years the Americans were running about as big as that species can get, up to 30"s. This one took me into my backing about 50-75′. It took a long damn time to wind all that line in after it threw the hook that’s for sure. The Americans should be starting to come on strong now, the water’s warming up and clearing. They like the stretch of water just up from Fletchers dock area, on a rising tide and then right up till slack tide. They come there to spawn. Most of the hickory action’s been on the falling tides. The female stripers are running up to 40lbs. and the cut herring/bottom fishing guys have been hauling in a bunch. I keep trying for them but all I do is lose expensive flies in the rocks. Would it be that terrible to soak a fly or two in a bucket of herring chum and then run my leader through a slip sinker and just sorta drop it over the side of the boat while I eat lunch or something ? I’ll have to sleep on that. Anyway the male stripers are expected by the end of the week and they’ll be possible to catch using ethical methods The river should be low enough for safe wading by the end of the week too if the levels keep dropping at a steady clip. Oh yeah, when my Rick and I got to the dock on Sunday afternoon " Dock Lady " ( you have to meet her in person, words can’t really adequetly describe her ) told us everyone coming off the river was pissed at us because we two flyrodders were taking shad right and left all day and they, the spinning guys were only hitting them off and on and "they said you two bastards must be doing something illegal ". Even allowing for "Dock Ladys" habit of slight exageration it still was good to hear. It’s usually the other way around. cheers, Bob nursing a painfully pleasant case of "shad elbow"

Response:

Hello East Coasters, We are catching Stripers in the Sacramento, Feather and American Rivers now too as our big spring spawning run has started (April/May/June). This is south(downstream) and north(upstream) of Sacramento. The main runs will go all the way upstream (north) to Colusa and above on the Sacramento River. We fish them wading and from boats. Some of our friends caught some Stripers on flies yesterday and today. The American Shad are just behind the Stripers and will be thick in a few weeks. PS: Thanks for bringing those Stripers and Shad over here to the west coast in 1877. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento, California, USA www.kiene.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fishing out of Fletchers Sunday and Monday: lots of BIG hickory shad, caught on the outgoing tide-using Teeny 250 or 300 lines, 6′ hunk of 12lb test Maxima for a leader ( God bless Maxima but I hate those fucking archaic spools theyl put the stuff on ) casting slightly upstream and usually getting a hit on the start of the swing. Flies on the small side-size 6 to 8 clousers with short tails-white with gold flash and chartruese with gold flash . I was getting alot of misses till I chopped off the tails to within about 3/8" of the hook bend , after that it was Heaven.Last cast of the day Monday I hooked an American shad, about 3 or 4 times the size and heft of the hickories. Last couple years the Americans were running about as big as that species can get, up to 30"s. This one took me into my backing about 50-75′. It took a long damn time to wind all that line in after it threw the hook that’s for sure. The Americans should be starting to come on strong now, the water’s warming up and clearing. They like the stretch of water just up from Fletchers dock area, on a rising tide and then right up till slack tide. They come there to spawn. Most of the hickory action’s been on the falling tides. The female stripers are running up to 40lbs. and the cut herring/bottom fishing guys have been hauling in a bunch. I keep trying for them but all I do is lose expensive flies in the rocks. Would it be that terrible to soak a fly or two in a bucket of herring chum and then run my leader through a slip sinker and just sorta drop it over the side of the boat while I eat lunch or something ? I’ll have to sleep on that. Anyway the male stripers are expected by the end of the week and they’ll be possible to catch using ethical methods The river should be low enough for safe wading by the end of the week too if the levels keep dropping at a steady clip. Oh yeah, when my Rick and I got to the dock on Sunday afternoon " Dock Lady " ( you have to meet her in person, words can’t really adequetly describe her ) told us everyone coming off the river was pissed at us because we two flyrodders were taking shad right and left all day and they, the spinning guys were only hitting them off and on and "they said you two bastards must be doing something illegal ". Even allowing for "Dock Ladys" habit of slight exageration it still was good to hear. It’s usually the other way around. cheers, Bob nursing a painfully pleasant case of "shad elbow"

Response:

Question:

Day Tripper: <<The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) Uh, first put some water in a bucket, Dave.  Then squirt just a little Xink in and watch the oil stain spread.  I wouldn’t want it in my septic system. Dave LaCourse

Response:

hey, if your ginked cdc works, USE it!!   8}  Who are we to judge?? trout – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Response:

Wolfgang: <<Seems to me that since the offending parties were indeed engaged in exercising one of their personal freedoms any call for them to cease is in FACT an effort to limit that personal freedom.  The answer to the problem is obvious, nicht wahr?  It’s right there in the excerpt above; "…rest of us don’t NEED watch."  You certainly DON’T need to watch.  Simply refrain from putting the cursor on any posting in the thread and clicking!  If anyone was pissing on my porch I would NOT hold out a cup to catch it. Priceless.  Thanks you.  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

My shoes are fine Larry . My definition of Fly Fishing is a bit broader than yours. The brainless part is disturbing though. Hm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey Harry- FLYFISHING?? You call this crap flyfishing??  C’mon…the discussion about nymphing and patterns and mooneyes and waders was about ff’ing….not this endless tirade. If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….the "discussion" has been limited to basically four participants, saying the same thing over and over and I can’t see where any of them have taken the issue streamside to prove it under FLYFISHING conditions…..I don’t fish in my lab, bathroom, kitchen or anywhere else in my house and I don’t think many others do either. Yeah, it’s WONDERFUL that people will be inspired to try something new….but if they were so brainless in the past that they weren’t willing to experiment without given the "intelectual stimulation" provided by an Internet Newsgroup, well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly…. [However, now] there’s a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV’s "Enough is Enough"

Response:

daytripper signed off:/daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd) When you decide to get rid of your lab, may I suggest being absorbed by BDHR,Ltd. This huge multinational conglomerate seems to be buying off a lot of smaller companies and everyone seems to enjoy being associated with Beer Drinkers and Hell Raisers. Big Dale

Response:

If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….

[snipped lengthy contribution] I don’t know whether to retort with "Yes it does" or "No it doesn’t", so pick one and consider it my rejoinder ;^) /daytripper

Response:

…look at all the takes with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories. [snip] George, there are some things I just won’t do – and introducing GINK (or XINK) to my kitchen is one of those things. The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) /daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd)

Should that be Daytripper Lavatories, Unlimited? Doug Knight

Response:

…look at all the takes with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories.

[snip] George, there are some things I just won’t do – and introducing GINK (or XINK) to my kitchen is one of those things. The bathroom, however, is acceptable. Though I’ll bet GINK would keep up what’s trying to go down therein, XINK would be the more logical choice ;^) /daytripper (owner/operator of Daytripper Laboratories, Ltd)

Response:

 snipped concern: I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

with this CDC feather thread?  It’s driven men to set up kitchen laboratories.  Imagine that!?   I think I’ve caught my limit ten times over on this troll.  I normally don’t drag a fly through the water.   Thank goodness I’m a Catch and Release purist, otherwise, we’d run out of these ‘free risers’ on The Great Roff River. And No, "I’m NOT the World’s Best"  I wish those that think so would learn not to take this  too seriously.– we’re good, but not that good. Mr. G. "We’re just a little bit better"  (JUST KIDDING!)  Golly!  Loosen up everyone! ; )  a smile is worth more then money and  A Ginked Fly is a Happy Fly.

Response:

floating CDC flies in their cocktails tonight. What’s the harm for Christ sake?  I could care less if it was Gink or Mink oil, these guys experimented and stated the results they got , your mileage and mine may and will vary . No big deal.  I will bet more will put something on their CDC flies in the future …just because someone said…never. I kinda like that sprit.They may not float worth a shit but at least they tried something on their own that everyone said was foolish. Harry

; )  Tight Lines Harry. — Mr. G.

Response:

Hey Harry- FLYFISHING?? You call this crap flyfishing??  C’mon…the discussion about nymphing and patterns and mooneyes and waders was about ff’ing….not this endless tirade. If you consider a 50+ post back and forth that says basically nothing more than "yes it does, No it doesn’t" a discussion about flyfishing, then more power to you…as far as I’m concerned, it’s contains no more substance than an argument between the eight year olds that live on my street arguing about superman vs spiderman….the "discussion" has been limited to basically four participants, saying the same thing over and over and I can’t see where any of them have taken the issue streamside to prove it under FLYFISHING conditions…..I don’t fish in my lab, bathroom, kitchen or anywhere else in my house and I don’t think many others do either. Yeah, it’s WONDERFUL that people will be inspired to try something new….but if they were so brainless in the past that they weren’t willing to experiment without given the "intelectual stimulation" provided by an Internet Newsgroup, well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it.

The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

Response:

LJMARM: (mercifully snipped) <<well…..like I said, for me at least, ENOUGH is ENOUGH. Then why, pray tell, do you keep adding to the thread?  <g Dave LaCourse

Response:

Amen to that Larry,  the involved participants should take it to E-mail. There is another cure,  I simply filter it out but my filter list is beginning to get longer than my arm. Ernie Harrison Like to make fly-fishing stuff?  See: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Harry- The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.  "D" key aside, it’s alot of traffic….so let them pull off to the side of the roadway and wash each others shoes. Larry #:)#

Response:

<snip The intent of my message was not a call to limit personal freedom, but if these boys want to have a pissin’ contest, there’s no need for them to do it on the porch in front of everybody else….no limitations involved, they can piss all they want, but the rest of us don’t NEED to watch.

<snip Seems to me that since the offending parties were indeed engaged in exercising one of their personal freedoms any call for them to cease is in FACT an effort to limit that personal freedom.  The answer to the problem is obvious, nicht wahr?  It’s right there in the excerpt above; "…rest of us don’t NEED watch."  You certainly DON’T need to watch.  Simply refrain from putting the cursor on any posting in the thread and clicking!  If anyone was pissing on my porch I would NOT hold out a cup to catch it.

Response:

Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Hey Larry,      was a time when fishing down stream was frowned on. Beads still be lures or jigs but folks tye and buy them by the ton and still call it Fly fishing. My point being you scream when the thread is not about FF’ing , this one is and you  still   yell.   If the stuff floats the fucking bug (mine) then so much the better what’s the big deal. If it does not, then so be it, but these guys are a least trying something that maybe new to others here and for that I think they deserve a bit  of all right. At the very least it had folks floating CDC flies in their cocktails tonight. What’s the harm for Christ sake?  I could care less if it was Gink or Mink oil, these guys experimented and stated the results they got , your mileage and mine may and will vary . No big deal.  I will bet more will put something on their CDC flies in the future …just because someone said…never. I kinda like that sprit.They may not float worth a shit but at least they tried something on their own that everyone said was foolish. Harry When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans, it was assumed that the Americans who had that freedom would use it responsibly…. [However, now] there’s a lot of irresponsibility. And so a lot of people say there’s too much freedom. When personal freedom’s being abused, you have to move to limit it. President Bill Clinton, 3-22-94, MTV’s "Enough is Enough"

Response:

Y’know….you’d think at some time, youse guys would just plain GIVE IT UP…. there’s no convincing some people about the merits of doing something or not doing something that THEY WANT TO DO…that’s why so many people still smoke, still drive without seatbelts, still shoot heroin, still drink to excess and still wet wade in waters with leeches in them…..speaking words of wisdom, LET IT FU( BE!!! I use CDC extensively, I’d never dress it…..I use Gink occasionally, I’d never say it’s a cure all, but whatever floats your boat…..just stop floating it here, okay??? Larry #:)#

Response:

Question:

I am looking to purchase a used canoe. This is my first canoe and the following are some wants/uses: 17′, wide, stable (will be used for hunting and fishing), large load capacity, safe for kids and my dogs.

<SNIP I don’t know if you’ve made your decision yet but I have a number of demo Swift Dumoines and Yukons, royalex and royalite which would really fit your requirements for under $1000. — Steve Freund QCC Kayaks http://www.qualitycomposites.com

Response:

I am looking to purchase a used canoe. This is my first canoe and the following are some wants/uses: 17′, wide, stable (will be used for hunting and fishing), large load capacity, safe for kids and my dogs. Will be used on river and lake, no heavy whitewater, but may see a few lumps and bumps, and also shallow water. Would like to be able to mount a small outboard/trolling for ocassional use, but not mandatory as I will be paddling 99% of the time. I looked at the Old Town Discovery 169 and Mad River Revelation. Any idea on prices I should see for used units? Please email with response. Thanks in advance Michael Rosenberger Phoenix College Media Services Arizona Upland Hunting and Outdoors – Productions

Response:

For a stable lake river canoe with big capacity I don’t see how you can beat http://www.otccanoe.com/camper.html  It isn’t 17′, but it has a big beauiful wide flat bottom that gives it LOTS of initial stability and IMHO would make it the absolute tops in a kids dogs camping scenario. I photograph birds out of mine with long lenses and that means getting my head and shoulders way off centerline and it lays in the water relaxed and stable as can be. Took it down about 55 miles of the Colorado from Moab to the Confluence this summer with Luigi Puzziferro. We were traveling gourmet style and started off with over 14 gallons of water (I never did like pumping water out of big rivers that flow near cities) and LOTS of heavy camera stuff, and that left plenty of freeboard and it cruised along nicely. Luigi made me so mad I could spit because he didn’t paddle half the time, but that wasn’t the boat’s fault. Paddles great solo, too. I just wouldn’t have a Discovery if there was any way I could get a Royalex canoe, especially if I was ever going to be carrying it around myself. Bought mine as a demonstrator from REI. Don’t remember how much, sorry, but it was cheap and in perfect shape. There are deals out there. Nace

Response:

Greetings from Paint Island Canoe & Kayak in Bordentown, NJ. I would not leave Wenonah out of the picture here. They make a Fisherman model that is beamier than most canoes but it is a 14′ boat. You can purchase motor mount kits that will fit  most boats as long as there is enough gunnel to grab. We sell two different types ranging in price from 49.95 to 56.00. The 56.00 is universal and ready to mount. The 49.95 unit must be cut to fit your boat. Good luck in your boat selection. Hope weather is great out there. Happy Paddling www.riversport.com/paintisland/ Ron

Response:

Michael: I’ve used the 17′ old town discovery sport square stern to fly fish out of. Stability is very good.  The two sets of oar locks are nice, they allow you to  row from the middle if you have two friends fishing at once or row from the bow if you have only one person fishing….it is tough, quiet, warm,,,as opposed to aluminum but it is very heavy…all in all it is a very good boat for non serious ww…ka – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to purchase a used canoe. This is my first canoe and the following are some wants/uses: 17′, wide, stable (will be used for hunting and fishing), large load capacity, safe for kids and my dogs. Will be used on river and lake, no heavy whitewater, but may see a few lumps and bumps, and also shallow water. Would like to be able to mount a small outboard/trolling for ocassional use, but not mandatory as I will be paddling 99% of the time. I looked at the Old Town Discovery 169 and Mad River Revelation. Any idea on prices I should see for used units? Please email with response. Thanks in advance Michael Rosenberger Phoenix College Media Services Arizona Upland Hunting and Outdoors – Productions

Response:

Michael Rosenberger wrote I am looking to purchase a used canoe. This is my first canoe and the following are some wants/uses: OldTown Discovery 17.4…our first boat….shortest trip 18 days/longest

trip 34 days. Our initial skill level : ZERO. Have paddled it on big Rivers like the Peace in Alberta at record flood, big lakes like Reindeer Lake in northern Saskatchewan, and remote prarie rivers like the North Dakota’s Little Missouri….there are prettier boat, there are certainly more expensive boats, and I doubt ANYONE will swipe this boat… look up OldTown Canoe homepage…weight is 82#, material is …plastic with interior foam cells LOL… carries 700 lbs easily with 3 inches of freeboard, and is still very stable. Cost new: $750 new… if you ever find a USED one…its because its previous owner died and surviving spouse is moving to the Sahara, or one a lottery and is buying a custom built (plastic boat) with a fancy name. It is used by outfitters in NWT as a rental, just like the old Grummans…it is maintenance free,and a safe and forgiving craft. This is my humble opinion…but you DID ask…

Response:

Yep, the Old Town Discovery series of boats is a good way to go for sure. If you can find someone who sell a lot of them, ask if they have any "blems" at reduced cost.  I worked for a couple of years at Rutabaga in Madison, WI (they ship anywhere, call 1-800- I PADDLE). Or call Od Town and ask for anyone in your area that sells their blems. The "blems" typically are just spots with a bit of discoloration which does not affect the integrity of the boat what so ever. Check out Rutabagas website also.  I’ve got it listed below. To reply by email, remove "mapson"from my edress.

Response:

I am looking to purchase a used canoe. This is my first canoe…

<SNIP THANKS to all who replied either in group or via email. I must say, this was a breathe of fresh air compared to some of my other experiences in other groups. Normally you ask for an opinion, you get one and then the rest of the thread is everyone else telling the first poster why he is wrong. It says allot about the "paddlin’ people". I must say I am quite excited to be getting this canoe. I did some paddlin’ in camps when I was younger and to this day cannot remember having more fun. Cannot wait to take the family, or hell…get out by myself for a day run. I will chime in again and let you know what canoe ends up on my truck top. Thanks again. Michael Rosenberger Phoenix College Media Services Arizona Upland Hunting and Outdoors – Productions

Response:

I just bought a Revelation for $1200.  It retailed for about $1400. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking to purchase a used canoe. This is my first canoe and the following are some wants/uses: 17′, wide, stable (will be used for hunting and fishing), large load capacity, safe for kids and my dogs. Will be used on river and lake, no heavy whitewater, but may see a few lumps and bumps, and also shallow water. Would like to be able to mount a small outboard/trolling for ocassional use, but not mandatory as I will be paddling 99% of the time. I looked at the Old Town Discovery 169 and Mad River Revelation. Any idea on prices I should see for used units? Please email with response. Thanks in advance Michael Rosenberger Phoenix College Media Services Arizona Upland Hunting and Outdoors – Productions

Response:

I am looking to purchase a used canoe. This is my first canoe and the following are some wants/uses: 17′, wide, stable (will be used for hunting and fishing), large load capacity, safe for kids and my dogs. Will be used on river and lake, no heavy whitewater, but may see a few lumps and bumps, and also shallow water. Would like to be able to mount a small outboard/trolling for ocassional use, but not mandatory as I will be paddling 99% of the time. I looked at the Old Town Discovery 169 and Mad River Revelation. Any idea on prices I should see for used units?

If you are looking at a Discovery, consider the Appalachian. It is a 16′ boat, butfor river running and wilderness tripping royalex is a superior hull materal. These boats are reasonably cheap, under $1000. The Appalachian is very similar to the Mad River Explorer (also a great boat), but the Old Town is significantly cheaper. -Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Please email with response. Thanks in advance Michael Rosenberger Phoenix College Media Services Arizona Upland Hunting and Outdoors – Productions

Response:

Question:

In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

Since when does the success of a PhD depend on real-world relevance? JonCook. PS: As was pointed out, any complete population dynamics model would have     to take multiple-C+R into account if in fact it is not a linear relation.

Response:

I’ve caught fish is locations like the San Juan that have clearly been caught many times and they tend to not fight very hard. Is it a learned behavior? Possibly we are inadvertently building a strain of fish the survive multiple catch and release because they don’t fight very hard, leaving more reserves for in-stream survival subsequent to release. I don’t think it would take too many generations for this to begin to be noticed, unless its already happening and we all don’t remember the hard fighting fish of yesteryears. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population? In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.

One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw.   Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

Response:

Hmmm…had to take longer to revive???  The Missoulian (Missoula Montana) just ran an artical about the high water temps this summer (it’s very hot out here…94 degrees today) and the affects this has on fish recovery.  FW&P biologist would like you to not fish if the water temps. are above or close to 70 degrees. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management. One of the big problems I see is in measuring the process.  I recently fished a stream in Idaho where they had Jaw tagged fish.  I put most fish I caught through significantly more stress than I ususally do.  I played them longer and  handled them more.  Even the fish without bands were played longer since I wanted to check if there was a band on the jaw. Normally I never have to recessetate a fish.  On this occasion I had to recessetate two out of two fish over 12".  Not statistically significant, but … Carl

Response:

I have the good fortune to live within a few miles of a small tailwater stream in New England.  The upper 1/2 mile is fly fishing only, catch & release year round. The next 3/4 mile downstream is catch & release, artificials only 7/1 to 12/31, and any method, 3 fish limit 1/1 to 6/30. These regs have been in place for more than 10 years.  Water temp seldom exceeds 60 deg. The stream is heavily stocked, and has a small poulation of native brook trout as well.  Studies by fisheries and wildlife indicate that 75% of the fish caught in the lower section are released.  Multiple catches are a way of life for both fish and fishermen.  This is a small, clear stream and dead fish are easily spotted. Very few dead fish are observed. The total seen amounts to way less than 1% of the 6500 or so trout stocked each year.  I understand that this is strictly anecdotal data, but this stream does offer a unique opportunity to observe the dynamics of a C&R area. This observation is offered only as general info on C&R mortality, and not intended to restart the "moral/ethical" debate over C&R. Tight lines!! George

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Hmmmm!   This is an interesting bunch of statistics.  But I get the impression that they are not all that connected.  They are drawn from several sources (comparing apples and oranges?).   I don’t deny that a percentage of C&R’d fish perish, but the survival rates don’t come close to comparing.  Let’s say that only 70% of C&R’d fish survive — 0% of C&K’d fish survive!! So let’s leave this sort of thought process to the guys in the Ivory Towers.  It really doesn’t make that much difference to the man in the river except the accent the need for appropriate care in the releasing of fish.   There has been entirely too much ad hominem name-calling  between the the C&R and C&K factions.  I speak out in favor of killing those fish that will be eaten (I like trout) and releasing those that will not be eaten (I don’t like cleaning fish).  I do favor leaving the large, wild fish to breed, and eating only the small to medium size ones.  In stocked rivers with little or no breeding, I have much less qualms when I see a fisherman leaving with a stringer. I don’t like seeing, as I did on the coast where I grew up, are dozens and dozens of fish, many of which are inedible or unplatable. Neal G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /             |/   (         /|    –     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Seek personal peace at the end of a fly line.

Response:

: I think it would definitely be a good phd topic — I didn’t see any : studies that directly looked at that. There are studies that say : things like, for example, on the Yellowstone (a C+R fishery), the : average fish is caught 4.5 times a season (I’m making up numbers that : I think are close to what I remember) and that the seasonal turnover : of the population is something like 30% (all deaths — not just C+R : mortality). So you might be able to infer something from that. But I : did not see a study along the direct lines you suggest. Care to go : back to school? I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?   In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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I don’t see why it would matter to anyone but that particular fish. Unless of course, the fisherman is worried about that particular fish, then in fact, the fish does have a lowered chance of survival.  But again, so what?  Aren’t we worried about the population?

I wasn’t really concerned about ‘a particular’ fish in my original post — or even a small sampling of fish — except in how the possible change in mortality as exhibited in the small sample when spread across a larger number of fish could be used to possibly model population dynamics in C&R streams.  Certainly the C&R mortality and the number of C&R cycles would not represent the full population dynamics model, but might become a part of a larger model.  This larger model could then be a useful tool for developing effective management practices for some fisheries (selective harvest, restricted seasons, limited take, controlled fishing pressure, etc) — and that is what would be of interest to fishermen. In conclusion, the project would be built on a phony premise, so it would take 4 – 5 years to fail the PhD, but it would still fail.  Sort of like the slow painful death of a played out fish.<g

What about a title like — "Mortality of (pick a species that grows large – S. trutta, for example) in (pick several exotic geographic location — New Zealand, Argentina, Chile, etc.) when exposed to multiple C&R cycles".  Now, find somebody (read sucker) to fund the research — sell it as at least a 15-20 year project.  Recruit several of your favorite fishing buddies as long-term ‘graduate’ or ‘undergraduate’ assistants and disappear on the mother of all fishing trips. :^) PS: I thought all PhD’s were slow and painful deaths — even for the survivors! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

–             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Response:

I have read one of the recent threads citing a number of academic studies conducted on survival of C&R fish depending on a number of environmental conditions….some excellent literature searching….kudos to the person who took the time to bring some facts to our ongoing discussions on this and related issues…I only wish I could find that post. Nonetheless, I was wondering if any research has been done to look at the survival rates on fish which experience multiple catch and release cycles.  It would be interesting to know how a fish responds through multiple C&R cycles — does it become statistically more likely to die, less likely to die, or does the mortality rate remains the same. The reason I ask is that say a fish has a 5% mortality rate (95% survival) on the first C&R cycle, if the mortality rate stays the same then after the second cycle the fish has a 5% chance of dying and a 95% chance of living….and on and on.  Let’s say a fish experiences 5 C&R cycles in a season with the 5% mortality and 95% survival rate per cycle, then it would seem that that fish has a 77% chance of surviving (0.95^5) during the season under a C&R system and a 23% chance of dying (1-0.95^5).  It is easy to see under this situation the more cylces the less likely survival is even if the mortality rate is not effected. However, if the mortality rate decreases following the first or subsequent cycles (a selection toward fish more capable of surviving C&R conditions) then the impact on fish mortality would be lower.  Also, if the opposite is true (ie, the mortality rate increases due to increased cycles) then the impact on overall fish mortality would be worse. Just curious if anyone is aware of a study that has looked at changes in C&R mortality rates as a function of the number of C&R cycles — if not, this might be an interesting PhD dissertation for someone in wildlife/fisheries biology or management.             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard The Yellar Hammer

Response:

Question:

JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in the world. There will be areas, such as Christmas Island, where you will find more fish, and others, such as Florida where you can find bigger fish- but nowhere are you likely to find larger number of big size fish- the norm there is 4-6 lbs. With angler having daily opportunity of fish in the 8-10 lbs class, and good chances of a shot at larger fish during the week. The area also possesses a wonderful variety of angling opportunities. In one recent weeks, 20 different species of fish were caught, including Tarpon (up to 50 lbs), Permit (one angler recently landed 3 in a week to 40 lbs), Barracuda, Bonito, Shark and many different types of Jack and Snapper. Fax 39-2-714447 or 39-2-76118214             Internet     http://www.gse.it/avalon  

Response:

Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way  to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

— Spare me A.T. 1. Until the end of Communist Russia, the US had state dinners with its leaders as it fought the 3d World, underdeveloped "Commies." 2. One of the reasons I turned against our government during Vietnam was: here’s the enemy–Commies, heathens, Gooks–trying to kill me. So why is President Nixon having dinner with Chou-en-Lai, Mao?!the leaders supplying the VC/NVA. What BS! 3. Let’s see, Tiananmen Square, China, same leaders then as now. So we’re trading with that country. What is this country’s obsession with bringing down Castro when we support more ruthless leaders in the world. 4. Nelson Mandela supports(ed) Communism, we made him a hero during his visit to this country. Enough, this is a fly fishing NG.

Response:

Sometimes I’m embarassed to be an american. As if the US doesn’t support far more oppressive regimes. Also, if you expand your notion of what oppression is, you might see that there is far more in the US. I once spoke to someone that lived under Franco who said that he felt far more free there. He didn’t get all sorts of capitalist goodies but had no fears for his safety, no matter where he went. We are all alone in the world in our view of Cuba. I agree completely that his dictatorship is wrong but can you really say that the Cuban voter is more impotent than the american voter?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

Response:

Fax 39-2-714447 or 39-2-76118214             Internet

(snip) http://www.gse.it/avalon Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

Then you don’t buy anything from China, right?  And is it just oppressive COMMUNIST dictators, or is it oppressive dictators in general?   Del Cecchi Rochester, MN

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fax 39-2-714447 or 39-2-76118214             Internet (snip) http://www.gse.it/avalon Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer Then you don’t buy anything from China, right?  And is it just oppressive COMMUNIST dictators, or is it oppressive dictators in general? Del Cecchi Rochester, MN

  Thanks Del I always liked people from Minnisota, must be the proximity to God’s country! While this is not really the forum to extend this thread. I was wondering where Mr. Spencer and his buddies Torricelli, Helms and Burton fish now that the pinkos have taken over Nicaragua? I suppose there is always Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico etc. Mark "commie" Brown Calgary, Alberta

Response:

JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in the world. There will be areas, such as Christmas Island, where you will find more fish, and others, such as Florida where you can find bigger fish- but nowhere are you likely to find larger number of big size fish- the norm there is 4-6 lbs. Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer

Oh, puh-lease. I don’t like Castro, but his regime is no more oppressive than dozens of others the United States supports, such as the PRC or any of the ultra-right-wing dictatorships we’ve propped up in Central and South America, Africa, Europe and Asia over the last 50 years. We’ve had many opportunities to co-opt Castro over the years in positive economic and humanitarian ways but we haven’t done it. Instead, we go for the d.f. military or blockade or boycott methodology. Even today, our state department makes it difficult to go to Cuba while at the same time, just about anyone can go to the PRC. If that isn’t b.s., what is? — To respond via EMAIL to a newsgroup post, remove -nospam from my address. – - – - – - This is your brain.  Postscript on brain your is This.

Response:

JARDINES DE LA REINA – Cuba – provides some of the finest bonefishing in the world. There will be areas, such as Christmas Island, where you will find more fish, and others, such as Florida where you can find bigger fish- but nowhere are you likely to find larger number of big size fish- the norm there is 4-6 lbs.

Snip-snip negative replies removed.. Oh, puh-lease. I don’t like Castro, but his regime is no more oppressive than dozens of others the United States supports, such as the PRC or any of the ultra-right-wing dictatorships we’ve propped up in Central and South America, Africa, Europe and Asia over the last 50 years. We’ve had many opportunities to co-opt Castro over the years in positive economic and humanitarian ways but we haven’t done it. Instead, we go for the d.f. military or blockade or boycott methodology. Even today, our state department makes it difficult to go to Cuba while at the same time, just about anyone can go to the PRC. If that isn’t b.s., what is?

OK, so here’s one for ya’. I am one of the persons who actually TRIED to go fishing in Cuba. I sent a letter to the ministry of tourisim in Havana, and got back a nice letter. It was all in spanish, and I had to have it translated. The Cuban Government informed me that I would have to obtain a tourist visa from the Chechoslovakian Embassy in Washington, DC. I would then have to fly from Tampa to Montreal, Canada, where I could catch a flight to Havana. From there, things got worse. Hey, Cuba is a short distance from Florida. Go to Montreal? The headache and expense was enormous, when all was said and done. I canceled the trip. Now, I have little doubt that there is a State Department file somewhere about me asking about the fishing in Cuba. Guess I’ll just keep fishing Florida! Mike Lott Fish Florida Magazine http://www.fishflorida.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interesting information, but I have no desire to contribute in any way  to an oppressive communist dictatorship. A.T. Spencer — Spare me A.T. 1. Until the end of Communist Russia, the US had state dinners with its leaders as it fought the 3d World, underdeveloped "Commies." 2. One of the reasons I turned against our government during Vietnam was: here’s the enemy–Commies, heathens, Gooks–trying to kill me. So why is President Nixon having dinner with Chou-en-Lai, Mao?!the leaders supplying the VC/NVA. What BS! 3. Let’s see, Tiananmen Square, China, same leaders then as now. So we’re trading with that country. What is this country’s obsession with bringing down Castro when we support more ruthless leaders in the world. 4. Nelson Mandela supports(ed) Communism, we made him a hero during his visit to this country. Enough, this is a fly fishing NG.

The "oppressive" regimes the U.S. has supported is almost an endless list. Whatever reasons remain to isolate Cuba are not credible.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, puh-lease. I don’t like Castro, but his regime is no more oppressive than dozens of others the United States supports, such as the PRC or any of the ultra-right-wing dictatorships we’ve propped up in Central and South America, Africa, Europe and Asia over the last 50 years. We’ve had many opportunities to co-opt Castro over the years in positive economic and humanitarian ways but we haven’t done it. Instead, we go for the d.f. military or blockade or boycott methodology. Even today, our state department makes it difficult to go to Cuba while at the same time, just about anyone can go to the PRC. If that isn’t b.s., what is? You seem to have taken a place among the minority on this point. However, as is usually the case, we can ever be thankful that the decision by the majority not to succumb to the illogical demands of an un-knowing minority is obviously the correct one. BTW…To answer your last question I submit everything you said preceding it. Finally, since this is an inappropriate topic for this newsgroup this shall be my final post on it. A.T. Spencer

Actually, several recent opinion polls have shown that a majority of Americans *favors* restablishment of full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Even the Pope, who is as conservative as one can be, favors full normal relations between the U.S. and Cuba. Every other country on the planet has full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Cuba is an appropriate subject for a fishing newsgroup. The island has had a long history as a sportfishing mecca. Avid fishermen who have been there and would like to go back are interested. So are younger fishermen who have read fishing tales from Cuba or perhaps only Hemingway’s novella.

Response:

(snip) Actually, several recent opinion polls have shown that a majority of Americans *favors* restablishment of full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Even the Pope, who is as conservative as one can be, favors full normal relations between the U.S. and Cuba. Every other country on the planet has full diplomatic relations with Cuba. Cuba is an appropriate subject for a fishing newsgroup. The island has had a long history as a sportfishing mecca. Avid fishermen who have been there and would like to go back are interested. So are younger fishermen who have read fishing tales from Cuba or perhaps only Hemingway’s novella.

  A nice posting Harry,

Response:

Question:

Tell me how well they do in 15 or 20 years. — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . All the rod makers that state their guarantee fulfill their guarantees. I have broken Orvis  and Sage rods and never had a bit of trouble.None of the rod companies could get away with refusal on their guarantee–they would be lepers at the party!

Response:

scroll back and look at the previous mulitude of posts about this subject.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -are my eyes deceiving me or is the sage 0 wgt rod in the $500 range….i got $250 in gift certificates to my favorite fly shop and thought i would treat myself to a new rod in the spring and when i checked the prices i almost had a heart attack….am i wrong or is the fly rod makers getting a little carried away…..

Response:

are my eyes deceiving me or is the sage 0 wgt rod in the $500 range….i got $250 in gift certificates to my favorite fly shop and thought i would treat myself to a new rod in the spring and when i checked the prices i almost had a heart attack….am i wrong or is the fly rod makers getting a little carried away…..

You’re wrong. OK OK, you’re right too! OC Garza

Response:

Thank the "free replacement" lifetime guarantee and all those who break rods simply to get a new one! Prediction: this policy will stop in the next years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – are my eyes deceiving me or is the sage 0 wgt rod in the $500 range….i got $250 in gift certificates to my favorite fly shop and thought i would treat myself to a new rod in the spring and when i checked the prices i almost had a heart attack….am i wrong or is the fly rod makers getting a little carried away…..

Response:

Thank the "free replacement" lifetime guarantee and all those who break rods simply to get a new one!

Never thought of that. Hmmmm…..

Response:

Thank the "free replacement" lifetime guarantee and all those who break rods

simply to get a new one! Prediction: this policy will stop in the next years. than the equivalent Sage DS series rod. As far as I can tell, G Loomis doesn’t yet (and probably never will) offer an unconditional warranty on their rods. Gary Loomis must be laughing all the way to the bank – he charges more for the same rod than other manufacturers do, then he charges you more when it breaks and you want a replacement. My point is, you say that prices are so expensive because of the warranty on some rods, why are Loomis rods(which don’t carry the unconditional warranty) as expensive as their equivalent Sage (et. al) rods? Performance? Doubt probably! I would much rather spend a couple extra bucks to help me if for some reason my fly rods breaks than to spend a a couple extra bucks to help Gary Loomis’ pay his insurance on his Mercedes! I own a Loomis rod, and while it is of what I consider average performance, I will never buy another one because I find other manufacturer’s rods as good, if not better, and they come with the added benefit of the lifetime warranty. Which, by the way, I have never had to use in 8 years of fly fishing and I hope I never have to. But its there, just in case.

Response:

I have an attic full of things that had a lifetime guarantee and after a few years could no longer get them fixed or replaced.  I suppose that if you become insistent on the guarantee the dealer will arrange with a "hit man" to fulfill your contract. — Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison Thank the "free replacement" lifetime guarantee and all those who break rods simply to get a new one! Prediction: this policy will stop in the next

years. <snip

Response:

I have an attic full of things that had a lifetime guarantee and after a few

years could no longer get them fixed or replaced.  I suppose that if you become insistent on the guarantee the dealer will arrange with a "hit man" to fulfill your contract. Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison

I don’t understand your point.

Response:

I have an attic full of things that had a lifetime guarantee and after a few years could no longer get them fixed or replaced.  I suppose that if you become insistent on the guarantee the dealer will arrange with a "hit man" to fulfill your contract. Remove NOSPAM to send E-mail Ernie Harrison I don’t understand your point.

Ernie-You are a guy who posts here all the time and i have enjoyed your comments–up till this one. All the rod makers that state their guarantee fulfill their guarantees. I have broken Orvis  and Sage rods and never had a bit of trouble.None of the rod companies could get away with refusal on their guarantee–they would be lepers at the party!

Response:

are my eyes deceiving me or is the sage 0 wgt rod in the $500 range….i got $250 in gift certificates to my favorite fly shop and thought i would treat myself to a new rod in the spring and when i checked the prices i almost had a heart attack….am i wrong or is the fly rod makers getting a little carried away…..

Response:

are my eyes deceiving me or is the sage 0 wgt rod in the $500 range….i got $250 in gift certificates to my favorite fly shop and thought i would treat myself to a new rod in the spring and when i checked the prices i almost had a heart attack….am i wrong or is the fly rod makers getting a little carried away…..

Hi all, Sage has a new series of specialty rods for very light fishing situations.  They have 3 sizes available for 1998.  Size  0, 1 and 2 line rods and  complete outfits. I have personally tried these rods/outfits and they cast very well. Sage worked with Scientific Angler to develop the new fly lines for these rods. If you are interested in fishing 7x and 8x tippet with #20 and smaller flies you might want to take a look. If this is not your ‘cup of  tea’, then don’t let it ruin your day. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

Question:

I will be visiting Colorado in a couple of weeks and was wondering what the runoff situation was.  I am specifically interested in the Colorado and Frasier rivers around Granby.  TIA. Dave Felter

Response:

I will be visiting Colorado in a couple of weeks and was wondering what the runoff situation was.  I am specifically interested in the Colorado and Frasier rivers around Granby.  TIA. Dave Felter

one thing about runoff, well two things…. 1) you can always, always fish no matter how high or muddy and nail nice ones. 2) you can always, always go high enough in altitude to the sources which should be in fine shape. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

I will be visiting Colorado in a couple of weeks and was wondering what the runoff situation was.  I am specifically interested in the Colorado and Frasier rivers around Granby.  TIA.

The rivers are dropping and clearing.  I think you’ll have good fishing. 2) you can always, always go high enough in altitude to the sources which should be in fine shape.

How heavy does my sink-tip have to be to get my fly down in the snow-field? — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

I will be visiting Colorado in a couple of weeks and was wondering what the runoff situation was.  I am specifically interested in the Colorado and Frasier rivers around Granby.  TIA. The rivers are dropping and clearing.  I think you’ll have good fishing. 2) you can always, always go high enough in altitude to the sources which should be in fine shape. How heavy does my sink-tip have to be to get my fly down in the snow-field?

then you’re getting too high, Wayne…<g… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

I will be visiting Colorado in a couple of weeks and was wondering what the runoff situation was.  I am specifically interested in the Colorado and Frasier rivers around Granby.  TIA. Dave Felter

The hydrographs I have seen show the West Slope to be about 10-14 days behind the East Slope for runoff. On the East Slope runoff is only now slowing substantially. My forecast is that it will be another week or two before levelling off to something like normal summer conditions; the west slope should follow by another week or so. Still fishable, though. Ken Clark Ft. Lupton, CO

Response:

Question:

Dams and pondliners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Right. And when (not if) those liners fail: 100 years, 500 years, even 2000 years if wer’e really lucky, the entire area becomes a superfund site.  Note that the acid leaches lots of heavy metals, highly toxic, *other* than gold, which poison the ground and the water supply. – - – the cyanide is not the major problem!    it’s the leached metals – - – which Jim won’t discuss I suppose Jim is gonna claim that the damn $1.83 per acre will pay for the impossible clean-up, like it has in Colarado? Jim, exactly how would you clean up those Colorado acid leach sites ??? – - –   Funny thing these ‘white people’: They see a mountain, all they want to do is blow it into a pile of acid leaching crap (note the acid leached a lot of *really* poisonous heavy metals). For a few pounds of shiny yellow metal, which they’ve already got more of in Fort Knox than they can do anything productive or pretty with.   Then these ‘white people’ take the money, declare the company bankrupt, and skip town… all the time whining about how we are interfering with ‘their west’.   If this is an excuse to make them rich at taxpayer expense, lets just bring back welfare and GIVE them the damn money *not* to totally fuck up the place. Let ‘em sit at home and watch TV. I’ve seen enough hard rock mining shit to care a lot about this… I’m not sorry about the language.

Response:

Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

Seadog – Still lost at Sea

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.

Yes, but this is the first ever "gold" mining venture, in which gold is the primary objective.  Of course they have removed gold from copper operations, but they were not "gold" mining.    Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Yes, cyanide is highly toxic, but please explain the statement regarding MOST mines leaking cyanide into nearby streams. While it is true that there have been cyanide leaks,  the word MOST is very misleading.  Some specific numbers would be quite interesting to see.  And cyanide does not persist for a long time. Shawn This statement is also true.  Mines that have used the heap-leach method

use impoundment dams that collect the waste cyanide.  The dams are lined with polyurethane liners that are as thick as a nickel.  In addition, the ore piles are put on top of polyurethane sheets which are supposed to keep the cyanide out of groundwater.  Every major Montana mine; and large mining companies are the primary users of cyanide-leaching has been cited for some type of water quality violation, most of which are related to cyanide leakage.  The liners are often the reason for the leak; holes, tears, seam leakage.  Rain storms have been a cause also, as they have filled up waste reservoirs and caused them to overflow.  If cyanide gets into groundwater, it gets into streams.     A large enough cyanide spill, or consistent leakage can persist for a long time in streams and rivers.  Usually, by the time groundwater leakage of cyanide is detected by the EPA or the Montana Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ), because mining companies are not likely to report, or even know about many of these leaks, they have already done their damage.  Aquatic life is much more sensitive to cyanide in lesser amounts than non aquatic life.   Shawn, keep in mind that the mining industry in Montana may be different from the industry in other states.  Our water quality laws are much more lenient than many places, thus, it is important to pass I-122.  Our past mining history shows that.  If you have any questions about the record regarding cyanide leakage, just contact the Montana Environmental Information Center, who’s address is in my original letter.  Or better yet, come to Montana sometime and see the destruction left in the place where a mountain was before, and fish the rivers that once had fish!                            Craig

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yeah sure cyanide disappers quickly. We have an old  Phelps Dodge outside Pecos, right on the river. Between the mercury and the cyanide in that area you are not advised to eat the fish. I have fished that area and the coating on my fly poles have been eaten off. Seadog – Still lost at Sea

Response:

  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has

<snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.

Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids. Jim

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has <snip has never mined gold in the United States. Wrong. Copper mining in leach pits is very similar to gold mining. Phelps Dodge removes huge quantities of gold from its copper operations.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time. Actually a mining engineer told me that cyanide is so reactive with carbon compounds, that it is totally absorbed very quickly in a river bed. Oh sure its toxic, but it doesn’t last long or travel far. I understand how you feel about this, but these mining operations are not as slip shod as you suggest. Phelps Dodge uses a closed recycling leach method where the leached metal ions are first removed by electrowining, then the water solution is pumped back onto the leach pile. Dams and pond liners prevent the escape of valuable fluids.

In 1991 the Summitville Mine in Colorado spilled cyanide and heavy metals into the Alamosa River, killing all aquatic life in a 19 mile stretch. This was after assurances were given when the mine opened that "state of the art" pollution controls were being used. There is a 120 mile section of the Clark Fork River in NW Montana that is a Superfund site because of mining pollution. Dams and ponds do nothing when you have torrential rains and flooding, causing the cyanide and heavy metal solution to overflow, which has happened at a number of mining sites.

Response:

            BIG INDUSTRY GOLD MINE WILL RUIN MONTANA RIVER   The Blackfoot River, which has flowed clean and cold in Montana from its headwaters near the continental divide for thousands of years is now being threatened by a huge open-pit cyanide heap-leach mine.  The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp. and Canyon Resources Inc. – the Seven-Up Pete Joint Venture, wants to mine the river’s headwaters for gold.  The mine site, including 172 million pounds of cyanide, which will be poured over 980 million tons of removed ore from the mountain will sit just 1/4 mile from the Blackfoot River.  (The Blackfoot River, by the way was recently made famous by Norman Maclean in his novel "A River Runs Through It".)   To get at the gold, buried 1,200 feet underground in trace amounts, the mining company will have to dismantle two pine-covered buttes, and for each ton of ore, the miners will recover 0.02 ounces of gold.  The remaining pit, more than a mile across and deep enough to hide the Washington Monument will collect groundwater which will be contaminated with heavy metals, and will have to be pumped out at the rate of 15.8 million gallons a day.   In Butte Montana, the Berkely Pit copper mine, which is no longer in operation has a similar sized hole.  The pit is filling up with water, and officials have no way to get rid of the Carcinogen’s, toxins or metals in it, which have already leaked into the water table of the town of Butte.  The mines copper smelter, the Anaconda Smelter has dumped tons of waste sediment into the Clark Fork River which has already caused several fish-kills, and water quality problems in my town, Missoula MT.   The Blackfoot River feeds into the Clark Fork to the East, before it flows into Missoula, which means that a spill or leak of cyanide or heavy metals into the Blackfoot, would also terminally harm the Clark Fork. Both rivers are currently used regularly for rafting, kayaking, fly fishing and other recreations.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Corp.- America’s largest copper producer- has had accidents at virtually all its mines.  It has been cited and fined frequently for toxic discharges into nearby waters.  The company has never mined gold in the United States.   Cyanide is a highly toxic substance- even in minute amounts.  Mining companies spray cyanide over huge heaps of low grade ore to extract gold. Most mines that use this heap- leach method have leaked cyanide into nearby streams and aquifers where it can persist for a long time.  Even in dilute solutions, cyanide kills fish and other life forms.  A leak of this chemical poison into the Blackfoot could finish the river for decades.   In November, the people of Montana will be voting for or against Initiative 122, "The Clean Water Initiative".  This initiative demands higher standards for removal of carcinogens and toxins before being discharged into state waters.  The current law, one of the most lax water quality laws in the country, allows mine discharges to be diluted after release into state waters, where it is measured down stream after a "mixing zone".  The "mixing zone" technique uses the river to dilute waste rather than using expensive machinery to filter it out. The current "easy to mine cheaply" water law is one of the reasons so many mining corporations seek Montana sites over mine sites in other states.   The Phelps Dodge Mining Co. has spent over 1 million dollars on TV and radio adds in recent months, which Missoula and other communities across the state have been bombarded with.  The adds claim that state water laws are sufficient, which they clearly are not, and that stricter laws for removing higher levels of poisons before discharge from mines will put many mines out of business and hurt the states economy. The so-called "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws" advertisements that the mining industry has created have been cited as being "illegal" by the fair-election watchdog group, "Common Cause".   "Using a misleading name, "Montanans for Common Sense Water Laws," to run a million-dollar media blitz, the Industry is succeeding in changing citizen beliefs, and they’re breaking the law to do it."  (Hal Harper, Democratic state representative from Helena, MT.)  Unfortunately, many people in the state have been scared by these ads, and swayed into believing that I-122 will hurt the economy and that it unfairly targets the mining industry.  The fact is that mining state-wide, accounts for less than one percent of the workforce, and mining has a long history of causing post mining recessions that hurt the economy.     On top of the adds, the mining industry has donated computers to the local high school, X-ray machines to the local clinic and it helped to insulate the local senior citizens facility in an attempt to win support for the upcoming vote against the Clean Water Initiative.  Proponents of I-122 believe that if a mine can not find a way to clean up their mess before they release water into the river, they should not be mining in the first place.     Supporters of I-122 have raised only around 300 thousand dollars toward the fight to make higher water quality standards law, so we need as much support as possible.  The Clark Fork-Pend Oreille Coalition recommends writing or contacting the following people to voice your opinion or concerns:  Write to Montana governor Marc Racicot, who currently favors mining and opposes I-122.                              Gov. Marc Racicot                          Capitol Station                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-3111 The Phelps Dodge Mine Co. has applied to the Montana Department of Environmental Quality  (DEQ) for a permit to build this mine.  Write Sandi Olsen at the DEQ.  Ask her to put you on the mailing list for public scoping on the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) that the DEQ will prepare once it deems Phelps Dodge’s application complete.  The findings are what determine whether the state approves or denies this permit.                          Sandi Olsen                          Montana DEQ                          P.O. Box 200901                          Helena, MT 59620                          (406)444-4988   Write a letter to your local newspaper.  Explain that the Blackfoot is too precious to trade for the short-term and questionable benefits from mining.  Remember; this is not just a Montana problem.  We all need to speak out against giant corporations that value their own interests of profit and gain over people and environment!  For more information and updates on this issue, please contact the following:                           Clark Fork- pend Oreille Coalition                       P.O. Box 7593                                                     Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)542-0539                       Montana Council of Trout Unlimited                       P.O Box 7186                       Missoula, MT 59807                       (406)543-0054                       Montana Environmental Information Center                       P.O. Box 1184                       Helena, MT 59624                       (406)443-2520    I am a University of Montana student and am not affiliated with any of the above organizations.  I am just attempting to help get the word out that what may happen if I-122 loses, is the destruction of a river and an eco-system that can not be replaced for decades.   Much of the above information came from articles from the San Francisco Examiner, The Missoulian, the Great Falls Tribune, the Clark Fork-pend Oreille Coalition and my own research and discussions with other sources.                   Craig Murphy

Response:

Question:

[...] BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott?

Yes, I’d be MORE than happy to. Besides, I picked up a huge container of Albolene during my stay in the US anyway… — | Environmental Toxicology Section | phone: +31 30 535338              | | Utrecht University               | fax:   +31 30 535077              | | the Netherlands                  |                                   |

Response:

[...] I thought it was pretty damn entertaining. I mean, here are all these flyfishers wandering into this newsgroup looking for tips on tying humpies, or instructions on how to fix the zippers on their gravel guards and what do they find: George Gehrke, beloved creator of Gehrke’s Gink, going completely freakin’ batshit in a tirade that would have made Adolph Coors blush. It was great! Bring him back here! He’s got balls the size of church bells, and this newsgroup (indeed, perhaps even the world of angling as we know it) needs more like him!

I don’t think this is entertaining at all. Out of curiosity I sometimes wander into rec.outdoors.fishing.fly (which I abandoned way before there even was a rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, just rec.outdoors.fishing), and time and again fall right into a similar raving, name-calling, rabid flamefest. Enough to make me realize why I switched r.o.f.f. for the And George Gehrke might have balls the size of church bells, but he certainly has a brain the size of the brain of our beloved quarry — or as we more commonly say: the size of a pea. And I will buy no more of his products and will actively pursue that more Europeans act likewise… — | Environmental Toxicology Section | phone: +31 30 535338              | | Utrecht University               | fax:   +31 30 535077              | | the Netherlands                  |                                   |

Response:

The..(lot’s of shortwave radioesque editorial snipped)..Arrrrgh!!! A.J.Thramer

Y’know A.J., it’s not so much your opinion that bugs me, it’s your absolute view that only you, and those who share your views, are right and good.  Also, your narrow minded definition of those who DO something for a living is a load of crap (IMHO, of course). Ross

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [massive snip] I really think I’m wasting my time here. Color me gone. [snip again] I’ve about had enough of this net business anyhow.  My time is better used elsewhere. Color me gone. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Yikes! I think we’ve just witnessed a self proclaimed "Professional Sportsman" go completely postal on the internet… That was the all time worst display of "professionalism" I’ve read in a long while, completely devoid of "sportsmanship". It was, in fact, simply a rant. Confronted with simple truth, he blew his brains out into the ether (not a pretty sight at all)…

I thought it was pretty damn entertaining. I mean, here are all these flyfishers wandering into this newsgroup looking for tips on tying humpies, or instructions on how to fix the zippers on their gravel guards and what do they find: George Gehrke, beloved creator of Gehrke’s Gink, going completely freakin’ batshit in a tirade that would have made Adolph Coors blush. It was great! Bring him back here! He’s got balls the size of church bells, and this newsgroup (indeed, perhaps even the world of angling as we know it) needs more like him!   George, if you’re still out there, switch to decaf, stop sniffing the Gink, turn off the Rush Limbo show, and get a grip…There’s room for you here…

Right on, but skip the "grip" part. And the decaf. Spinolio

Response:

I’d support a tax hike if Billy would use it to get the end of his nose fixed so that it did not look so much like a penis. TimW

Response:

Norm…those six occasions you mention wouldn’t have had any "pork" attached for the democrats agenda by any chance would they ? I believe there may have been a little more to those "occasions" than a vote on the environment. If not I would really like to know, pure speculation on my part but any details would be nice.

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like!

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like!

So this explains why you support Dole: you want a President who lacks any sign of a working penis. Steve

Response:

The second ammendment has absolutelyNOTHING to do with hunting and/or sporting arms. It has everything to do with the right of the people to self protection, whether from the local burgler or the an overactive government that has lost its contact with the people. A flock of killer ducks was not what the framers had in mind.   Does anyone really think that the excise money is 100% apropriated back to sporting causes? If there is even ONE person who believes that I can get you a hot deal on a bridge…..  As an example look up the figures on aircraft use taxes, gasoline road taxes and I am quite sure a list of examples ad nauseum.   Mr Gherke was perhaps a bit vehement in his rhetoric but his facts have been well documented and I for one agree with his message if not exactly his tone. This is turning into a society of citizens who want to ‘feel’ good. Damn the facts and full speed ahead on the good ship lollipop. Sometimes the facts are unpleasant or painful. Bubbas reputation is one of a terrible joke among the international community. Hi duck hunting episode last year made me gag.   IMHO Gherkes right, an opinion shared by most people who make,repair,sell,build or in short DO something to earn a living. Go ahead FEEL good and send the country down a payh that will lead to a place where everyone is a victim and no one can afford to make a living.   I use his products because they are the best available and will happily continue to purchase same!    Election by sound bite!!! Arrrrgh!!! A.J.Thramer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341   My, My, How mean-spirted we are today, hows the clear cutting going in B.C. ? Did the republicans get into Canada also ?   Just asking..   Harry

I think the original post by Mr. Gehrke was much more "mean spirited" than Tom’s, and at least Tom took some time to flesh out his thoughts instead of posting the all-caps, right-wing bumper sticker that George threw out. Just because you disagree with Tom’s reply, Harry, doesn’t make his message "mean spirited". Still, I’m very glad that Mr. Gehrke came out and stated his political beliefs so bluntly so that those like myself who flatly disagree can now avoid his products. Spinolio

Response:

Henk Verhaar writes:

I don’t think this is entertaining at all. Out of curiosity I sometimes wander into rec.outdoors.fishing.fly (which I abandoned way before there even was a rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, just rec.outdoors.fishing), and time and again fall right into a similar raving, name-calling, rabid flamefest. Enough to make me realize why I switched r.o.f.f. for the And George Gehrke might have balls the size of church bells, but he certainly has a brain the size of the brain of our beloved quarry — or as we more commonly say: the size of a pea. And I will buy no more of his products and will actively pursue that more Europeans act likewise… the size of a pea…don’t really correspond to flaming anyone you……really we don’t

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like! So this explains why you support Dole: you want a President who lacks any sign of a working penis. Steve

   Or law suits associated with the unbridled use of said unit. Where is  L  Bobbit  when you need her !   Harry  " If this is the Bridge to the 21st Century, I hope to God  Kennedy is not driving "

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like! So this explains why you support Dole: you want a President who lacks any sign of a working penis.

they’re both lying. TimW

Response:

Actually the final Senate count was all 50 Republican senators, because after the Ted Williams’ "Dirty Dozen"  article in Fly Rod and Reel went to press, the one Democrat, Sen. Shelby,  showed his true unenvironmental colors and switched to the Republican party. Should we read anything into this? Should this voting record be a factor in how we vote on election day? For me, it will be a major factor.

Response:

[massive snip] I really think I’m wasting my time here. Color me gone.

[snip again] I’ve about had enough of this net business anyhow.  My time is better used elsewhere. Color me gone. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink

Yikes! I think we’ve just witnessed a self proclaimed "Professional Sportsman" go completely postal on the internet… That was the all time worst display of "professionalism" I’ve read in a long while, completely devoid of "sportsmanship". It was, in fact, simply a rant. Confronted with simple truth, he blew his brains out into the ether (not a pretty sight at all)… George, if you’re still out there, switch to decaf, stop sniffing the Gink, turn off the Rush Limbo show, and get a grip…There’s room for you here… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.     Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus            Maynard, Massachusetts < <      Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited"       < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinions expressed herein may not be shared by             my employer, etc…

Response:

I wasn’t aware that the rabid and absurd Mr. Gherke in this group was the same who makes fly floatant.  If this is true (and I’d like confirmation of same), then I second the boycott motion.  This guy is hell-bent on destroying our resources for his own gain; something I don’t want to support.  Instead, I’ll use the environmentally friendly products made by Loon.

Response:

: ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Mr. Gherke: I read with dismay your response to our neighbor from the North.  My disappointment is not with your political views; you are entitled to express those as you wish.  Rather, I take issue with the discourteous and disrespectful way in which you have attacked the President of the United States in this international forum.  You behavior undermines the integrity and honor of our nation.  I shudder to think that the international community regards behavior such as yours as the norm for all Americans. Recently in the fly tying newgroup, you wrote about loyalty to U.S. manufacturers and their products.  You stated, "If Americans will not support Americans, then who will?"  Your conduct in this forum reveals your hypocricy.  No matter what you think of his policies or performance in office, you owe it to your nation and your fellow citizens to accord President Clinton the respect he and his office deserve.  If you dislike his policies or personal conduct, I urge you to exercise your right to vote against him and campaign for his political opponent in a constructive way. But personal attacks that disparage not just the man but the office have no place in civilized political discourse. I do not mean to imply that those who hold views similar to yours have a monopoly on discourtesy.  The legions who attacked President Nixon during his tenure were guilty of the same lack of honor.  More recently, arch-conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh and Bob Grant have helped institutionalize disrespect.  It is not an issue of politics, it is a matter of manners, pure and simple.  Hysterical and personal invective, whether liberal or conservative, sways no one’s opinion.  It simply tells others that Americans are a bunch of boors.  To say nothing of what we are teaching our children! Indeed, I believe that Americans have become fed up with negativism and discourtesy in the political process.  IMO, the best messages to come from the presidential debate held last night in Hartford were the expressions of professional respect and personal amity that each candidate holds for the other.  If you respect Mr. Dole, your chosen candidate, at all, then I suggest you follow his example of courteous and honorable conduct. I also urge you to retract your statements and apologize for the poor behavior you have exhibited in front of thousands of people.  While you are entitled to your policitcal views, you are not entitled to disparage America at the same time that you ask for the loyalty of Americans.  It is for this reason that I intend to join the boycott of your products. Respectfully, Michael Zuch

Response:

Tom, Good post! I won’t buy any Gink or Xink either. An interesting article appeared in the April 1996 issue of Fly Rod & Reel entitled "Out of Touch" by Ted Williams. Information in the article was collated by the National Wildlife Foundation. The article makes for interesting reading, but a portion lists the "dirty dozens" …."those listed are the dirtiest of the dirty; to make this compliation, they had to enter an anti-enviornmental vote on at least five of six occasions."(page 40) The Senate list had 49 Republicans and 1 Democrat. The House had 176 republicans and 13 Democrats. Mr.Dole made the list with five out of a possible of six anti-enviornmental votes. Norm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom, Good post! I won’t buy any Gink or Xink either. An interesting article appeared in the April 1996 issue of Fly Rod & Reel entitled "Out of Touch" by Ted Williams. Information in the article was collated by the National Wildlife Foundation. The article makes for interesting reading, but a portion lists the "dirty dozens" …."those listed are the dirtiest of the dirty; to make this compliation, they had to enter an anti-enviornmental vote on at least five of six occasions."(page 40) The Senate list had 49 Republicans and 1 Democrat. The House had 176 republicans and 13 Democrats. Mr.Dole made the list with five out of a possible of six anti-enviornmental votes. Norm

  As Spinolio has rightly pointed out, the tone of George’s post was none too sweet. I am not condoning how he stated his feelings.  I also think he passed the point of "good taste".   What I do find amusing is the flight by some, on angelic wings, too some self-ordanined "higher ground". It is patently bullfeathers. Your above quoted article was printed on paper from trees, yes folks, trees that most likely where the result of clear cutting, are we all going to cancel our subscription ??  .  Mr Williams myopic views are well known and his cutting down of trees to get them printed is no less " anti-enviromental" than the people he  harpoons editorially.  How much tool oil went down some river to get your reels made?  Did your return the reel ?  How many Dams provide power so you can run your computer ? Do you shut your power off in protest?  The hypocrisy is knee deep here     The very idea that this "Holy" sport is a "non-impact", environmentally PC way of entertainment, is absolute crap on the face of it, and if you think that by partaking in this "hobby" you are somehow an environmentalist, you had better look again.  It is a blood sport that requires one to use, yes use , natural resources to partake. This is a contact sport folks, we impact the river, lake, creek environs  hard and to think we do not is teaching what to our children ?.    I don’t mean to point toward you per say Norm , it is just that there is an aroma about this that makes me gag. George is not the only one who may want to apologize "internationally", what ever that means.   It’s Monday…   Harry

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Fact is Mr. Clinton has been in office for 4 years and some very tough gun regulating laws have been passed…as far as I know no sportsman has had his or her hunting rifle confiscated….second fact…there is no question which Presidential candidate will better protect our natural resources…third fact, the Vietnam war was nothing like WW1 or WW2…to use that war as a litimus test of ones patriotism is absurd…55,000 American men and women died to satisfy the hard ons of politicians and big business…fourth fact..Mr Gehreke is intitled to think what he wants of Bill Clinton, but he should check into the reality a bit more before openning his mouth.  Thanks for your time and bandwidth.

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Snip, snip, snip, snip, snip… I gotta say that I find this ad-hominem, mouth-foaming, pissing-contest sort of post really nauseating on this newsgroup, which I thought was for people who enjoy the __peace and quiet__ that goes along with fly-fishing. Sure, let’s fight for what we hold dear; but calling people filthy names just because they wrote out a carefully considered opinion that doesn’t agree with you, is offputting and embarrassing to see in a newsgroup like this. Just my $.02 CDN. — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, ichthyophile. Toronto, Ontario, Canada. see my illustrations at http://www.mackerel.com/fish/home.html

Response:

: ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

  My, My, How mean-spirted we are today, hows the clear cutting going in B.C. ? Did the republicans get into Canada also ?   Just asking..   Harry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

It is evident that a Canadian, who may have harbored the idea of draft dodgers isn’t anyone I care to do business with anyways. That a Canadian has the reasons to justify why Americans should be draft dodgers, such as Slick Willie Clinton as opposed to the WWII Combat Soldier that is now running against  him, Bob Dole, I regard as a vacilating mind that is concerned about his own best interests and not that of his neighbors who were willing to die for his views, as wrong as they are. So, if you want to start a boycott, be my guest.  But don’t go around saying that I’m against good environmental stands and taxing, taxing, taxing is NOT the solution.  Not being responsible in defending the general public AGAINST POLITICAL TAXING IDEAS SUCH AS YOURS, would be criminal.  Not fighting the U.S. Forest Service with their sick plans to destroy our last remaining National Virgin Forests, is pure laziness and apathy.  My passion is against people who hold opposite points of view to these premises.  My record regarding my life long fight to uphold and prevent the special interests from destroying what remains for our childrens tomorrows is well documented.  I take special offense to your stupid, shallow, and outright filthy lies and acquisations to the contrary.  It is my company and my dollars and my staff and our persistant efforts over decades of work that have fought the good fight. Where the hell do you get off telling everybody that I have anti-environmental stands?  I spend thousands of dollars of Gink money every years supporting Trout Clubs, Many Chapers of T.U. the Federation of Fly Fishermen, Political candiates who care about your outdoor inventories . . . and because I don’t want the slick politicians taxing bikers, camping gear . . . you assume the worse?  You’re a very ill-informed, close-minded, selfish sonofabitch! In a lifetime of blood, sweat and tears, of writing letters, of digging in and putting my money where my mouth is, where were you in America? I’ll tell you where.  No where!  Never, in tens of thousands of dollars of donations to preserving, protecting and defending the enviornment has anyone . . . ANYONE . . . ever even said, "thank you". Well, I don’t want anyone’s thanks.  I haven’t given my entire life to the great American Outdoors to solicite anyones ‘thanks’.  I don’t need it.  Don’t want it. But you sir.  Are a pompous, ignorant person who knows NOTHING of what he is talking about. So, had you not snipped or had the full benefit of the entire thread of where our original distain for Slick Willie Clinton had started, you would have realized the justification for calling this liar of a President down for what he is.  Dishonest, unhonorable, and a yuppie who has not served this country, who is now a President that has not stopped the clear cutting timber barons, nor the dam builders, nor any of the rape that continues in outdoor America by special interests, even as I speak and you listen. I really think I’m wasting my time here. Color me gone. Do with my products what you want.  They still are the world’s best that you can buy.  If you want to go second class, that is your choice.  We have always appreciated our supporters business.  But if you think you can black-mail me . . . think again. At least you didn’t do business with a compromiser.  They will say anything to fall in line with such as yourself. I won’t. Tight lines always in the fond memories my products have given you. That, to me is the main satisfaction I’ve had on your life.  I’ve given you the best that is in me.  You can never that away.  Its too late. You want to take prisoners.  I don’t want any. I’ve about had enough of this net business anyhow.  My time is better used elsewhere. Color me gone. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink

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Question:

I have a brother who wants to post a classified for his guide business in Florida. The ad itself would read    Fly fish for Homasassa Tarpon    contact:    Chuck Massey    PO Box 1706    Keystone Heights, FL    $350.00/day    10 years experience. Top of the line equipment    Book now for May,June. July 1995 " Could anyone here tell me where a good place to post this might be? Please people giving me advice. Thanks in advance. Lance Massey

Response:

: I have a brother who wants to post a classified for his guide business in : Florida. The ad itself would read SNIP : Could anyone here tell me where a good place to post this might be? Please : people giving me advice. Why do I have this sort of wierd feeling that we have been "had"? B.S!

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