Question:

Any recommendations for trout streams/fly shops near Steep Falls, ME in Late June? Thanks, Sam

Response:

Any recommendations for trout streams/fly shops near Steep Falls, ME in Late June? Thanks, Sam

Saco river would be good. Not sure about pond fishing but you might want to check a map and the regs and look for someplace. If the hex hatch starts early on one of those ponds, you cannot beat the action. Flyfish

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Question:

The author made it sound as though anybody with an ounce of sense could catch trout on a fly rod, and it was with that optimism that I had my brother’s rod tip repaired, borrowed a pair of rubber waders from my company’s field dept., and gave it a try.   The author was correct, and I did in fact catch a trout that day, following his advice. . . .  This sound familiar to anybody?

I cannot help with author or title, but run parallel except that I still have the book. 1.  In or before 1967, browsing as usual among second-hand books, I was attracted by Ray Bergman’s Trout (even though I fished seldom, after a summer in northern Ontario) so bought it. 2.  In or about 1970 a girlfriend bought a new car and on delivery wanted a longish trip:  so we drove from Ottawa towards Lake Placid, which I had heard of as a tourist destination: and stopped at a pretty waterfall just beyond the village.  A bronze plaque told us this was the Ausable River and I remembered reading about it in Bergman as famous for trout. 3.  Before the end of the year I got a $9.99 Japanese bamboo rod at the local Canadian Tire store, we borrowed a camping outfit (i.e. squashed an 8×12 ft. canvas tent into the back of a Beetle) and I had landed my first trout on a #14 BWO about 100 ft. upstream of the Hwy. 86 bridge. I could show you the spot to within two feet. I still treasure the book. — Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

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I can’t remember what it was, so I thought I’d tap the remaining memories of this crowd to see if my description shakes out a title & author.   See, I’d been a spin fisherman for a long time; but when my younger brother left town, he sort of bequeathed to me an old HI glass fly rod.   In some coming together of the cosmos, I picked up a copy of a book on fly fishing one day and began reading.   The author made it sound as though anybody with an ounce of sense could catch trout on a fly rod, and it was with that optimism that I had my brother’s rod tip repaired, borrowed a pair of rubber waders from my company’s field dept., and gave it a try.   The author was correct, and I did in fact catch a trout that day, following his advice. The book itself was not a long or excessively technical book IIRC, and one feature about the book that stands out in my mind was his opinion that streamers were the ticket to make any newbie successful.  (My first was on a little rainbow trout streamer.)   I’ll be darned if I can remember the name of either the book or the author, though. This sound familiar to anybody? Joe F.

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Question:

Do not learn to cast. Very bad. Too much like work. Learn to draw pretty pictures. ….take a deep breath, assume the lotus position and let your mind begin to wander and then to wonder…if necessary, use the ancient relics and the secret blend of herbs to attain a sated state of complete relaxation… While sitting…grasp the rod. Hold it. Feel it. Become one with it. …. Learn how to gently coax line from the tip. Learn to move the line to different places. Use as little motion as possible in order to not molest or in any way raise your pulse rate. Your breathing should become deeper and slower as you bond with your rod. Start off with small strokes. Gently teasing and calling….calling…. Learn, seek the way to keep the line in the air…..slowly….how to keep it in the air with the least energy expenditure…..can you make it straight.? Can you, with a flick of the wrist, a flex of your forearm, make the line go straight out in front of you?  Can you make it then go straight out in back of you? Can you keep the ess curves out of your line? Can you keep the line flat and straight, curving only to change from forwards to backwards?  Can you feel the line so softly and tenderly tugging and pulling – yearning to be free of the rod and thus of it’s master? repeat……this is my rod. There are many like it, but this one is mine…… john

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asadi wrote… repeat……this is my rod. There are many like it, but this one is mine……

My rod is my best friend, it is my life.  I must master it as I must master my life.  Without me my rod is useless, without my rod I am useless.  I must cast my rod true.  I must cast better than my friend who is trying to outfish me.  I must catch fish before he outfishes me.  I will.   Before God I swear this creed.  My rod and myself are defenders of our rivers.  We are the masters of the trout.  We are the saviors of fish.   So be it.  Until there are no fishless days but catching.   Amen. — Warren (amazed at how memories from 10+ years ago can flood your mind as fresh as if the events just happened….) PS – This is my rod and this is my gun.  This is for fishing, this is for fun….. Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Do not learn to cast. Very bad. Too much like work. Learn to draw pretty pictures. …

        (etherial wisdom snipped) john

        i knew it would only be a matter of time before you got these techhies on the right path, john.         it must be tough being the only bodhisattva on roff. your friend in the old north state wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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… the secret blend of herbs to attain a sated state of complete relaxation…

Yeah, that’s the part I like about fishing with you, John. I just gotta remember to tie on the fly BEFORE I toke the secret herb. — Ken Fortenberry

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Hello asadi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do not learn to cast. Very bad. Too much like work. Learn to draw pretty pictures. ….take a deep breath, assume the lotus position and let your mind begin to wander and then to wonder…if necessary, use the ancient relics and the secret blend of herbs to attain a sated state of complete relaxation… While sitting…grasp the rod. Hold it. Feel it. Become one with it. …. Learn how to gently coax line from the tip. Learn to move the line to different places. Use as little motion as possible in order to not molest or in any way raise your pulse rate. Your breathing should become deeper and slower as you bond with your rod. Start off with small strokes. Gently teasing and calling….calling…. Learn, seek the way to keep the line in the air…..slowly….how to keep it in the air with the least energy expenditure…..can you make it straight.? Can you, with a flick of the wrist, a flex of your forearm, make the line go straight out in front of you?  Can you make it then go straight out in back of you? Can you keep the ess curves out of your line? Can you keep the line flat and straight, curving only to change from forwards to backwards?  Can you feel the line so softly and tenderly tugging and pulling – yearning to be free of the rod and thus of it’s master? repeat……this is my rod. There are many like it, but this one is mine…… john

Never had a dirty phone call and this is my first erotic newsgroup post……or did I just read it wrong <G May your Yin and Yang be in harmony always, and your Ch’i flow freely. — Don’t Worry, Be Happy! IRC Sandyb in #Rabble uk3.arcnet.vapor.com port:6667 Sandy (http://www.ftscotland.co.uk)   (Replace noway with sandy to email)

Response:

asadi [held it in a *real* long time then] posted…. Learn, seek the way to keep the line in the air

yes…young grasshooker …..slowly….how to keep it in the air with the least energy

expenditure….. yes…i can see it now…master bong lit can you make it straight.?

yes…ho wang…but for the fleeting flap of a single gnats nad… Can you, with a flick of the wrist, a flex of your forearm, make the line go straight out in front of you?

yes…huk lo…but then it will stay there forever (sometimes even with a mighty samurai pull) Can you make it then go straight out in back of you?

yes…far flung…I think I am ready…can I try to snatch the splitshot from your palm ? Can you keep the ess curves out of your line?

yes…but I can’t keep the fuk ng knots from my 5x… — The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

 Very bad. Too much like work. Some days it does feel that way.  Feel it. Become one with it. …. When I bring to mind my favorite places, most of them are places that for some reason or another, are more likely to give me one of those special days. On these days, "you" can get lost in the experience and all is right with the world. I’ve only had these sort of days when I was fishing alone. When I bring other people to these places, the trips are often disappointing because their "specialness" isn’t because of exceptional fish catching. Willi PS Before I once again get accused of not having a sense of humor, I DID see the humor in John’s post.

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Question:

What is the relationship between flyline weight and weight carrying capacity (eg, lbs)?

Response:

Jtfunai: <<What is the relationship between flyline weight and weight carrying capacity (eg, lbs)? None, although a 1 wt line might be easier to "break" than an 8 wt. I have never heard of anyone breaking their line on *anything*. The tippet is the first thing to break. Dave L.

Response:

What is the relationship between flyline weight and weight carrying capacity (eg, lbs)?

There basically is no real relationship. The breaking strain of the fly-line core is the main criterion here, and this is far higher than is likely ever to be broken by a fish, assuming it is not damaged.  The weight of a fly-line is primarily determined by its coating, irrespective of the core diameter, which is basically a plastic full of glass bubbles in the case of a floater, and with lead or other powder in the case of a sinker.  The core of the line is invariably a synthetic such as Terylene or similar, and may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, as does the coating.  The "breaking strain" of a fly-line is basically irrelevant, and is seldom given by the manufacturer.  I remember seeing a level floating  line some years ago where the B.S. was given, as 60 lbs, but have not seen any such data recently. TL MC

Response:

Thanks Dave. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jtfunai: <<What is the relationship between flyline weight and weight carrying capacity (eg, lbs)? None, although a 1 wt line might be easier to "break" than an 8 wt. I have never heard of anyone breaking their line on *anything*. The tippet is the first thing to break. Dave L.

Response:

Thanks Mike. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is the relationship between flyline weight and weight carrying capacity (eg, lbs)? There basically is no real relationship. The breaking strain of the fly-line core is the main criterion here, and this is far higher than is likely ever to be broken by a fish, assuming it is not damaged.  The weight of a fly-line is primarily determined by its coating, irrespective of the core diameter, which is basically a plastic full of glass bubbles in the case of a floater, and with lead or other powder in the case of a sinker.  The core of the line is invariably a synthetic such as Terylene or similar, and may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, as does the coating.  The "breaking strain" of a fly-line is basically irrelevant, and is seldom given by the manufacturer.  I remember seeing a level floating  line some years ago where the B.S. was given, as 60 lbs, but have not seen any such data recently. TL MC

Response:

I agree with the other two posts with regards to weight of quarry and breaking strength of the line.  There are to many factors that would determine the breaking strength of the line while being fished.  Such as the rod and tippet being used.  The tippet will usually break before the rod and the rod before the line.  With the shock absorbing capabilities of the rod and the leader or tippet it is hard to imagine the line ever breaking on a fish unless it had been cut on something. I however just broke a Rio 9/10/11 Spey line on a snag in the Thompson River.  I was never able to see what it was snagged on but it must have been sharp.  Line weight really has no correlation with the weight of fish.  Although you would not want to use a small diameter line such as a one weight for Tarpon! Before you buy.

Response:

I agree with the other two posts with regards to weight of quarry and breaking strength of the line.  There are to many factors that would determine the breaking strength of the line while being fished.  Such as the rod and tippet being used.  The tippet will usually break before the rod and the rod before the line.  With the shock absorbing capabilities of the rod and the leader or tippet it is hard to imagine the line ever breaking on a fish unless it had been cut on something. I however just broke a Rio 9/10/11 Spey line on a snag in the Thompson River.  I was never able to see what it was snagged on but it must have been sharp.  Line weight really has no correlation with the weight of fish.  Although you would not want to use a small diameter line such as a one weight for Tarpon! Before you buy.

Response:

There is no relationship as far as I know. Traditional fly lines have a dacron core of only 20-35lb breaking strain (light lines with the thinner dacron) – of course this is plenty for normal fishing conditions. If the lines are old and cracked the dacron can deteriorate reducing the breaking strain. I know a couple of people who have broken the line when using 10kg tippet on tuna – one was a heavily used old Cortland, the other an Airflo (when they were at their worst). I broke a 3M wet cell IV once in Fiji after snagging it on the reef – it seemed like 80lb!! Some of the newest lines with braided monofilament may be stronger. Cheers John Knight Sydney FlyRodders’

Response:

What is the relationship between flyline weight and weight carrying capacity (eg, lbs)?

Hi JF, I think that lines #4, 5, 6 and 7 are built up on a 20# braided dacron core. #8 and larger are built on a 30# braided dacron core. I guess the new #0, 1 and 2 lines are on something smaller in diameter than 20#? This is real evident when you are trying to pull 30# backing or cheap 20# backing up inside the core of a #6 line to make a needle nail knot.

Response:

Question:

Hi Bob, I have never fly fished for or oio in Hawaii.  I don’t fish much anymore since fishing is not that good.  I remember fishing for them with lures using ultralight spinning gear when they were more plentiful. I fished the shallow reefs especially in the sandy holes.  I used yellow feathered gig or buck tails.  Plastic lures worked too.  I would bounce them in the sand. I caught fish over five pounds.  Once I hooked them, I would walk out to them rather than reeling them in.  The coral would cut the line if I tried to reel them in.  I lost more fish than I brought in, but it sure was a lot of fun.  I fished ultrlight using four pound test line.  I’m sure you could use the same techniques using fly gear. One of my favorite places used to be on the reef across the channel from Ft. Derussey.  The shallow surf in Bellows produced small oio also. I’ve also caught them on reefs and sand bars in Kaneohe.  All this was ten-thirty years ago. Aloha, Fred E. Nakaguma Aiea, Hawaii I’d like to try for bonefish (Oio) here in Hawaii. I’m looking for someone who’s done it to get some ideas of where and how to start. I’m retired now and have the time to learn. Aloha – bob    ooo_ — http://www.aloha.net/~bgraham

– Sincerely, Fred E. Nakaguma Aiea, Hawaii

Response:

I’d like to try for bonefish (Oio) here in Hawaii. I’m looking for someone who’s done it to get some ideas of where and how to start. I’m retired now and have the time to learn. Aloha – bob    ooo_ — http://www.aloha.net/~bgraham

Response:

Bob, I have been hearing of bonefish in Hawaii for fifteen years. I hope it is true. Remembering back, those bones were caught off the rocks. Start with a good shrimp, crust’s, or small minnow pattern. Then start changing your flylines. If you are fishing 8,9, or 10 weights… I have some lines (shooting heads and full sink), that I can send you for free. Just let me know your address. I would be more than willing to help in your quest. Bob, It is guys like you that search and find new undiscovered fisheries. God Bless You, and good luck. Sincerely, Capt. Greg Rahe

Response:

I’d like to try for bonefish (Oio) here in Hawaii. I’m looking for someone who’s done it to get some ideas of where and how to start. I’m retired now and have the time to learn. Aloha – bob    ooo_ — http://www.aloha.net/~bgraham

Hi Bob, There are bones in the ‘islands’, but they are referred to as ‘deep water’ bones. I think if you can find some water that is 2 feet deep, you might be successful. The south side of Molokai is all shallow flats. If you go there for a week, I think you might be able to find some bones on these shallow flats. Warmer weather is better, so I would not expect them to be on the ‘flats’ in cool weather. There is a guide out of the Hotel Molokai that can take you for bones and trevally. If you can ask around and find any other shallow areas, you might find some bones on any island. Catching bones in deep water on bait is not anything to get excited about. The big deal with bones is finding them in 12" of water about 100 yards from the drop off.  They like the incoming tide and feed on the bottom. An 8 weight rod, floating line, 9′ 0x leader, Crazy Charlies in Gold, Pearl or Pearl Orange, light colored Polarized glasses, hat, sun screen and foot protection are some of the essentials for bone fishing. Bill Kiene www.kiene.com

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Question:

: Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top : of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the : rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again : (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and : I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a : really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks. :   : Fred Rickson I had a similar experience with some Gortex Atlantis raingear I bought about 20 years ago.  It never was water resistent let alone water proof.  I have several other later pieces of Gortex gear which are much better. :   :   — Isaac(Ike) B. Wilder That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Response:

Well, my goretex waders work. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks. Fred Rickson

Response:

Well, my goretex waders work. Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks. Fred Rickson

Hi All, The original Gore-Tex became contaminated or dirty and then leaked. That was many years ago. Now they have Gore-Tex jackets, pants, gloves, hats, boots and waders. It now has an anti-contamination feature that really made the difference. Gore-Tex, like many long term products has gone through many evolutions. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Fred,     My wife bought me for Christmas an Orvis Gortex wading jacket. Since that time I have used it on the rivers and lakes from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland. Throughout that period I encountered everything from steady and heavy downpours to biting cold snow squalls. The jacket performed superably trough all and I am continually thanking her for this purchase. The coat has no yet soaked through, though I will say that it does get "heavy" with water after several hours of standing in the rain. The nice aspect of the Orvis coat is that they put an unconditional five year guarantee on the jacket for everything from barbwire tears to leakage…either way they fix or replace. I think some of the other coats on the market such as Simms, Patagonia, LL Bean and even Cabelas own name brand wading jacket are all good quality. Yes, Gortex has improved alot since when it was first marketed. Hope this helps. Cheers, Colin Dartmouth, NS

Response:

writes: will easily keep you dry and comfortable in the worst Oregon weather (I lived in Oregon from 1976 to 1987). You didn’t spend all that time living in Ontario or Baker City…did you?

No, I lived in Troutdale and then in Sandy (east of Portland towards Mt. Hood). The main drawback with Gore-tex is the price – they are spendy.  The performance now is superb.  If you’re still worried about getting stuck, just be sure to buy from a company or a dealer that has a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Have you spent all day walking in a brush field?? In western Oregon?? Does it work then??  If I spend that much money it really needs to work in a situation other than downtown Portland or a tourist on a rainy day walk on a trail.  Thanks.

The rivers I primarily fished were the Sandy, the Clackamas (main stem and North Fork), the Salmon, Eagle Creek (the one near Estacada), and  the North Umpqua.    Once in a blue moon I’d fish the Wilson or the Trask.  Also fished the Deschutes, the Williamson, Fort Creek, Spring creek, and Squaw Creek in Southern and Central Oregon.  The GPS-2 standard Gore-tex such as the Orvis Tailwaters wading jacket will easily hold up to this type of use.                       Good Fishing,                          Dan Dan Gracia Orvis

Response:

[deleted] The rivers I primarily fished were the Sandy, the Clackamas (main stem and North Fork), the Salmon, Eagle Creek (the one near Estacada), and  the North Umpqua.    Once in a blue moon I’d fish the Wilson or the Trask.  Also fished the Deschutes, the Williamson, Fort Creek, Spring creek, and Squaw Creek in Southern and Central Oregon.  The GPS-2 standard Gore-tex such as the Orvis Tailwaters wading jacket will easily hold up to this type of use.

Not me man…I’m staying right in my dry and warm living room until the GPS-3’s are actually shipping….I can’t believe you actually fished the Eagle in a GPS-2…what were you thinking man ? What kind of waders do you have for those massive balls of yours to even try such a stunt ? — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks.

Your right about first generation gore-tex being of poor quality… WL Gore acted quickly to fix these problems completely though..My first set of Gore-Tex raingear was 3rd generation and hasn’t leaked a bit, and my new wading jacket (Cabella’s Gore-Tex) is incredible… — Chris Schmelzer, MS-2 Medical College of Wisconsin Milwaukee, WI 53208

Response:

I wasn’t going to say anything, since the subject was "GoreTex" per se, but I have been absolutely overjoyed with the "Dry Plus" jacket I bought from Cabellas for about half what the competition wanted. Now I want their waders in the same fabric. Again, very competitively priced. Look good, and my wife wants to wear my stuff… Good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks. Your right about first generation gore-tex being of poor quality… WL Gore acted quickly to fix these problems completely though..My first set of Gore-Tex raingear was 3rd generation and hasn’t leaked a bit, and my new wading jacket (Cabella’s Gore-Tex) is incredible… — Chris Schmelzer, MS-2 Medical College of Wisconsin Milwaukee, WI 53208

Response:

will easily keep you dry and comfortable in the worst Oregon weather (I lived in Oregon from 1976 to 1987).

You didn’t spend all that time living in Ontario or Baker City…did you?  The main drawback with Gore-tex is the price – they are spendy.  The performance now is superb.  If you’re still worried about getting stuck, just be sure to buy from a company or a dealer that has a 100% satisfaction guarantee.

Have you spent all day walking in a brush field?? In western Oregon?? Does it work then??  If I spend that much money it really needs to work in a situation other than downtown Portland or a tourist on a rainy day walk on a trail.  Thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks.

Hi Fred, When Gore-tex first came out lots of people made waterproof rain gear out of it.  A lot of them didn’t know what they were doing and either didn’t seal the seams, or sealed them correctly.  Gore-tex got a real black eye from this and they quickly changed their licensing agreements so people couldn’t call it Gore-tex if they didn’t follow the Gore-tex approved construction methods. This made a huge difference and they started rebuilding their reputation. However, Gore-tex still had some problems with salt and dirt clogging it up, and also had a problem with some chemicals.  About 7 years ago they came out with a second generation Gore-tex that is not bothered by either.  The current Gore-tex is an expanded PTFE membrane and works great.  When it gets dirty, you wash it with Tide.  When water stops beading up on the outer fabric (typical with heavy use after 5 or 6 years), you re-treat the outer fabric with Tectron or Scotchguard.  Even if the outer fabric loses its DWR (Durable Water Repellancy) and gets completely waterlogged, you still won’t get wet.  You may feel like you’re wet because the water is flush up against the membrane when the outer fabric’s DWR is gone, but when you take it off, you’re dry.  Re-new the DWR as needed for best comfort. Gore-tex has a couple of "water repellancy" standards they test designs against.  The most stringent is the GPS2 standard.  The North Face, Marmot, and a number of other  backpacking equipment manufacturers have designs that meet this standard.  Orvis has a Gore-tex fishing jacket called the Tailwater’s Wading Jacket that is GPS2 certified.  Any products that meet this standard will easily keep you dry and comfortable in the worst Oregon weather (I lived in Oregon from 1976 to 1987).  The main drawback with Gore-tex is the price – they are spendy.  The performance now is superb.  If you’re still worried about getting stuck, just be sure to buy from a company or a dealer that has a 100% satisfaction guarantee.                        Hope this helps,                            Dan Dan Gracia Orvis

Response:

Fred Rickson schrieb in Nachricht Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks. Fred Rickson

Hi Fred, I had the same problem, my wife and I bought two very expensive Goretex fishing jackets which we were told was the best there is , we used them a couple of times and then took them back,because we were soaked after an hour or so of solid rain, the dealer said he couldnt understand it, but wouldnt take them back.  I would never buy this stuff again. We now have Sympatex jackets, which are lighter, cheaper and WATERPROOF ! Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

We now have Sympatex jackets, which are lighter, cheaper and WATERPROOF !

I don’t have anything against Gore-Tex, but I agree that Sympatex is lighter, cheaper and more comfortable to wear.  I also have a "Triple Point Ceramic" anorak made by Lowe Alpine that is impervious to wind and rain and is (IMHO) the ultimate for hiking, fishing, etc., in bad conditions. Dan

Response:

Many years ago, when Goretex first came out, my wife and I bought two top of the line sets of rain gear.  We would be soaked after standing in the rain fishing all day.  We took them back and have not used Goretex again (using rubber instead).  But, is the product really waterproof today….and I mean standing or walking all day in a good Oregon rain.  I still mean a really good, expensive set.  Please advise.  Thanks. Fred Rickson

Response:

Question:

Hi, Lets get a thread going on various tactics for fishing streams and rivers. Casting considerations Anti Skating techniques Are some examples for topics of discussion. Regards – Michael

Response:

Hi, Lets get a thread going on various tactics for fishing streams and rivers. Casting considerations Anti Skating techniques Are some examples for topics of discussion. Regards – Michael

Well fishing small streams is what i do best and most (those usually correspond).  As far as casting goes i like to dap a lot and also flip my fly to a different spot on the stream intead of a full pickup.  this usually is best because it doesn’t spook the natives.

Response:

Hi, Lets get a thread going on various tactics for fishing streams and rivers. Casting considerations Anti Skating techniques Are some examples for topics of discussion. Regards – Michael

   Well fishing small streams is what i do best and most (those usually correspond).  As far as casting goes i like to dap a lot and also flip my fly to a different spot on the stream intead of a full pickup.  this usually is best because it doesn’t spook the natives.

Response:

Yeah, I’ve found in small streams that usual rules of fly presentation often don’t apply.  An elk hair caddis that starts out as a dry fly, even when palmered, will often quickly get sucked under and pulled along as a wet and still seems to attract fish.  Dragging the fly all over the top and bouncing it over white water will get hits very commonly , sometimes even in relatively smooth water, when otherwise the slightest drag will spook fish.  Doodle bugs and Renegades also show this kind of "versatility". — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

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Yeah, I’ve found in small streams that usual rules of fly presentation often don’t apply.  An elk hair caddis that starts out as a dry fly, even when palmered, will often quickly get sucked under and pulled along as a wet and still seems to attract fish.  Dragging the fly all over the top and bouncing it over white water will get hits very commonly , sometimes even in relatively smooth water, when otherwise the slightest drag will spook fish.  Doodle bugs and Renegades also show this kind of "versatility". — Ken Brown Satis elequontiae, sapientiae parum.

  I found the same thing in other waters.  Often it takes alittle action or sometimes alot of drag on dry caddis to get a response, and this is on fish that will be put down with just a small amount of drag when feeding on Mayfly duns. Overall, Mayflies are sedate, Caddis aren’t. Willi

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While I was

wading out to a good spot at the head of a riffle, I had my fly drifting in the water when Wham! a nice 14" brown gobbled it up.  Now I purposely let my caddis dry bounce on the surrface of a riffle for a good minute or more.  Seems as though the fish see it as a caddis laying eggs and bouncing up and down on the surface.

Andrew, One might conclude (incorrectly) that one needs to have ones fly in the  water to catch fish from this… and sometimes not in the manner one would  normally use… Well, I saw a fish rising along the far bank of the Yellow Breeches some 30  feet away and cast a Letort cricket size 14 to it…. leader wrapped a small  branch of a leafy plant, causing the Letort cricket to be suspended 6" above  the water.  A rainbow leaped, nailed the cricket, broke off the leafy branch  still wrapped around the leader.   Netted ‘em both.   So… just get your fly  near a fish is sometimes good enough. tightlines, Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

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Re bouncing dry bouncing caddis in a riffle- I have done this in the dark with an elk hair sedge with rubber legs, and also let it drift dry down a glide till it reaches the end of its travel, then allowed the current to drag it across (presumably making a big vee -too dark to see!) The brownies will take at any stage of this technique, and produces bigger fish than during daylight or the dusk too. This is on a stream in N.Ireland, though I live in Scotland now! Gillaroo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sure, I’ll bite.  Here’s one of my favorite techniques.  While I was wading out to a good spot at the head of a riffle, I had my fly drifting in the water when Wham! a nice 14" brown gobbled it up.  Now I purposely let my caddis dry bounce on the surrface of a riffle for a good minute or more.  Seems as though the fish see it as a caddis laying eggs and bouncing up and down on the surface. Anyone else try this? Andrew Hi, Lets get a thread going on various tactics for fishing streams and rivers. Casting considerations Anti Skating techniques Are some examples for topics of discussion. Regards – Michael

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Lets get a thread going on various tactics for fishing streams and rivers.

How about this one.  I’m standing on the bank, I’ve just finished a cast and my fly is trailing downstream in the current.  I tuck the rod under my elbow, and light up a smoke.  Right about the time I get the thing lit, a fish hits, pops the rod out and pulls it into the water, as I stumble around after it. Similarly, I use this cast to look at water ouzels, deer, bears and clouds. Anglerboy — Trout fear me, Women want me. http://www.midtown.net/~angler/

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How about this one.  I’m standing on the bank, I’ve just finished a cast and my fly is trailing downstream in the current.  I tuck the rod under my elbow, and light up a smoke.  Right about the time I get the thing lit, a fish hits, pops the rod out and pulls it into the water, as I stumble around after it.

I had this same experince. Managed to hold on the rod though. Huge fish too. Brad

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  Lets get a thread going on various tactics for fishing streams and rivers. How about this one.  I’m standing on the bank, I’ve just finished a cast and my fly is trailing downstream in the current.  I tuck the rod under my elbow, and light up a smoke.  Right about the time I get the thing lit, a fish hits, pops the rod out and pulls it into the water, as I stumble around after it. Similarly, I use this cast to look at water ouzels, deer, bears and clouds. Anglerboy

I do this to fool the fish into thinking that I am unprepared.

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I think of low and slow conditions during the hot summer dregs on small streams and offer the following advice:  Terrestrials.  Change flies a lot. Try some weird stuff, the trout will surprise you.  If all else fails, ah-ooooga, Dive!  Dive! with a good bead head marabou bugger. — KennyM "I fish because I love to…" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Lets get a thread going on various tactics for fishing streams and rivers. Casting considerations Anti Skating techniques Are some examples for topics of discussion. Regards – Michael

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Umm, I just found a bunch of tips from Buzz Ramesy and Tim Rajeff on the trophy rivers web site  covering flyfishing http://www.sierra.com/titles/rivers/trivers.html         "Salmon and steelhead gather                  near the river mouth before                 moving upstream to spawn.                They

Question:

     Seems like we’ve finally accomplished something?  :-)

and what would that "something" be?         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

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 It seems to me that fly casting is using the weight of the line to carry the lure or (fly) to the fish. I’m attracted to this definition…..

At the age of 46, I’d be inclined to agree.  But here’s a story from my youth you may find amusing.  Back in ‘63, I was in Sequoia camping with a ‘Y’ group of youths my age.  We were there for fishing and hiking. ‘Fishing’ was the operative word, since no one had ‘caught’ anything.  At that time, FF wasn’t nearly the designer sport it is today.  I had only seen a couple people doing it and I was a fair distance away:  totally naive to the special gear required for the graceful casts. Taking my self quite seriously, I started whipping a spoon around using my 6′ ft, fiberglass, $12 Thrifty spinning rod and reel.  There I was, whippin that thing back and forth and every once in a while lettin the spoon drag through the pool.  On one of my "backcasts" I literally yanked a little 8 incher right out of the water, totally surprising both of us.  (This was the only trout caught by anyone on the trip!).  Subsequent flailing, for an hour or so produced no more fish.  Go figure.  I guess I put ‘em all down. (The most amazing part of this story is that I still have both of my eyes).  Now you can easily convince this 46 year old that aint flyfishin, but don’t try to convince that 12 year old kid.   Now we’re getting somewhere. Fly fishing is the use of a fly rod to propel anything so light it needs the weight of the line to get anywhere. The use of lightweight bobbers and multiple flies can still be called "fly fishing".

I guess this pretty well rules out spin casting a clear bubble attached above a 6′ leader having a dry fly attached.  Personally, this works for me because the result is to drift flies with a presentation that fools the fish in the same way your defined technique does.  (I don’t do this anymore, but it certainly wouldn’t chap my hide if I say someone plying ff only waters in this fashion, especially if it was a young’un)

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   Seems like we’ve finally accomplished something?  :-)

(hee hee) What is flyfishing ? If you have to ask or try and define it, you’ll never understand it. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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        Seems like we’ve finally accomplished something?  :-) and what would that "something" be?

the first internet gigabyte waste of bandwith for "1997 Useless Threads" category…… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It seems to me that fly casting is using the weight of the line to carry the lure or (fly) to the fish. I’m attracted to this definition…..  Now we’re getting somewhere. Fly fishing is the use of a fly rod to propel anything so light it needs the weight of the line to get anywhere. The use of lightweight bobbers and multiple flies can still be called "fly fishing". RALPH may or may not want an amemdment to exclude the use of lightweight spoons or wigglers. Note: that doesn’t mean we can’t fish with bass poppers….It just puts a tight limit on how we categorize them.   Seems like we’ve finally accomplished something?  :-)

Maybe it could be simpler, fly fishing is fishing with a fly line. — Charlie…

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 It seems to me that fly casting is using the weight of the line to carry the lure or (fly) to the fish. I’m attracted to this definition…..

  Now we’re getting somewhere. Fly fishing is the use of a fly rod to propel anything so light it needs the weight of the line to get anywhere. The use of lightweight bobbers and multiple flies can still be called "fly fishing". RALPH may or may not want an amemdment to exclude the use of lightweight spoons or wigglers. Note: that doesn’t mean we can’t fish with bass poppers….It just puts a tight limit on how we categorize them.    Seems like we’ve finally accomplished something?  :-)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to make one post about the definition of ff and then say no more.  It seems to me that fly casting is using the weight of the line to carry the lure or (fly) to the fish. As long as the lure is so light as to require a line to carry it to the fish it seems you are fly casting. As for what is fly fishing, you now have many different lures or (flies) that fit into the definition above. These lures or flies range from #32 up to 8" long or longer. I maintain you are fly fishing as long as you NEED the weight of the line to carry the fly to the fish. I don’t see how the use of boats or strike indicators, or anything else enters into the definition. Certainly, some types of fly fishing are more difficult than others. It doesn’t mean the others aren’t fly fishing. I think we should encourage all kinds of fly fishing. The young person we help now, with his poppers for largemouth, may someday be a #32 hook in-the-film emerger fisherman. That’s all brothers. Hope you all have a great summer of fly fishing. Jim

I’m attracted to this definition having posted something similar some time back. It concentrates on one major factor that makes flyfishing different; the cast. It also seems more consistent with the more ‘catholic’ outlook most flyfishers have these days (includes me) – adopt what works within rather broad confines. I do think though we have to exclude obvious ‘lures’ (spoons spinners etc) but don’t know what to do about "flys" that act like lures –  spoons flies tullis wigglers, plastic bills on bass poppers etc. So many of these things are constructed the same way we tie flies so though I’m tend to be not convinced they are flies I use them rather than condemn them. Ralph H replace "spamsucks" with direct for email reply.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to make one post about the definition of ff and then say no more.  It seems to me that fly casting is using the weight of the line to carry the lure or (fly) to the fish. As long as the lure is so light as to require a line to carry it to the fish it seems you are fly casting. As for what is fly fishing, you now have many different lures or (flies) that fit into the definition above. These lures or flies range from #32 up to 8" long or longer. I maintain you are fly fishing as long as you NEED the weight of the line to carry the fly to the fish. I don’t see how the use of boats or strike indicators, or anything else enters into the definition. Certainly, some types of fly fishing are more difficult than others. It doesn’t mean the others aren’t fly fishing. I think we should encourage all kinds of fly fishing. The young person we help now, with his poppers for largemouth, may someday be a #32 hook in-the-film emerger fisherman. That’s all brothers. Hope you all have a great summer of fly fishing. Jim

Hi Jim Good point. I agree it’s a lot more important to help a kid get started than to argue about what fly fishing is. You also have a good summer. Take care & … — Tight Lines ….. Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Catalog,Tips & Tricks, Fishing Reports, & NeverSink at: http://www.btsflyfishing.com

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I’m going to make one post about the definition of ff and then say no more.  It seems to me that fly casting is using the weight of the line to carry the lure or (fly) to the fish. As long as the lure is so light as to require a line to carry it to the fish it seems you are fly casting. As for what is fly fishing, you now have many different lures or (flies) that fit into the definition above. These lures or flies range from #32 up to 8" long or longer. I maintain you are fly fishing as long as you NEED the weight of the line to carry the fly to the fish. I don’t see how the use of boats or strike indicators, or anything else enters into the definition. Certainly, some types of fly fishing are more difficult than others. It doesn’t mean the others aren’t fly fishing. I think we should encourage all kinds of fly fishing. The young person we help now, with his poppers for largemouth, may someday be a #32 hook in-the-film emerger fisherman. That’s all brothers. Hope you all have a great summer of fly fishing. Jim

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Question:

I am looking for a new or secondhand Hardy #4 fly reel to match a Loomis #4 IMX rod. Marquis #4 or #5 , Golden Prince 5/6 or JLH Ultralite #4 or #5. Any info will be of great help. Thanks

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I am looking for a new or secondhand Hardy #4 fly reel to match a Loomis #4 IMX rod. Marquis #4 or #5 , Golden Prince 5/6 or JLH Ultralite #4 or #5. Any info will be of great help. Thanks

Contact Timeless Tackle in Edinburgh Scotland at 44-131-667-1407 or FAX 44-131-662-4215.  They deal in used and antique fishing gear and their list always seems to have a large selection of Hardy equipment. Ken Barry

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Question:

Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland P.S. – yes, I know I’ll never find a drift boat within hundreds of miles of Maryland!

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Driftboat rentals are available on the Bighorn River through the Bighorn Angler

fly shop in Ft. Smith and other shops there. Denver, Colorado        ftp://ftp.rmi.net/pub2/gwgodden

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland

Hi Scott, Many fly shops rent drift boats.  I believe Dave Kumlien at the Orvis Store hear in Bozeman rents them. He is often on this group, you could ask him. Regarding handling a drift boat compared to handling a canoe, etc.: The fact you can read the water is definitely in your favor. When operating a canoe you are usually stroking forward on the paddle as you move downstream – usually a little faster than the current. Most of the time in a drift boat you are pulling back on the oars to slow you trip down the river. On a day the wind blows up stream you may have to push on the oars to go on downstream, depending how strong the current may be.  I’m a guide here in Montana and on the Yellowstone for example the wind usually blows downstream during the morning and upstream during the afternoon. So in the morning you are pulling like crazy on the oars and in the afternoon you are pusing on them.  It sure keep you in good shape. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

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My recommendation would be to go with a guide the first couple of times no matter what.   I remember a John Gierach magazine story on the Roaring Fork where he said it’s a good easy float from bonedale to glenwood. Well…it is a good float, but it can be class II-III at times and even the best oarsman hit rocks or bottom.  You have about 800 pounds, $2000 worth of equipment and 3 lives, in a damned river. It requires a respectful approach. If you get screwed in a Dory, dip an upstream edge or get broadside to something, you can die or be seriously hurt, real easy.  Buddy Mike had an accident like that two years ago and had to have fingers reattached.  He had let someone else row the boat, who seemed fairly competant.  Mike has been guiding since before dirt. The first time I rowed a driftboat, I got backwards right where the Crystal flows into the Fork.  The guide (behind me) climbed over my back and grabbed the oars and got us straightened out.  It never happened again, but the guide made me take some burly lines and channels just so he’d feel good about me having the boat on my own.   When we got to the end of the run, he insisted that we do it again…and we did. My confidence soared. That’s what you need, IMO, is a guide like that. TimW

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My recommendation would be to go with a guide the first couple of times no matter what. I remember a John Gierach magazine story on the Roaring Fork where he said it’s a good easy float from bonedale to glenwood. Well…it is a good float, but it can be class II-III at times and even the best oarsman hit rocks or bottom.  You have about 800 pounds, $2000 worth of equipment and 3 lives, in a damned river. It requires a respectful approach. <other comments deleted

Excellent post Tim.  I think to many people saw A River Runs Through it and don’t give mother nature the respect she deserves.  Each river is different and if it’s at all dangerous should be navigated with a guide the first couple of times. BTW – You are fishing again aren’t you Tim? Vince

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Rental outfits usually rent 12-14 foot rafts with frames which work for float fishing, but are better when used with 5 friends and a cooler full of beer, It’s almost impossible to rent a hard boat.

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My recommendation would be to go with a guide the first couple of times no matter what.   If you get screwed in a Dory, dip an upstream edge or get broadside to something, you can die or be seriously hurt, real easy.  Buddy Mike had an accident like that two years ago and had to have fingers reattached.  He had let someone else row the boat, who seemed fairly competant.  Mike has been guiding since before dirt.

Hmmm…I’m still not sure I’m convinced.  I’m not _opposed_ to going with a guide, but as I mentioned in the original post of this thread, I’ve been paddling canoes & kayaks in (big) whitewater for years. (That’s up to class IV water.)   Dipping an upstream edge or pinning on a rock are hazards just as serious and real in a canoe as in a dory.   The only thing I can figure that would take getting used to in a dory is the larger size of the boat and slower response time than a canoe. But then some drift boat rowers may argue with that.  : ) Also, oars offer you far greater power than single canoe paddle! At any rate, I wouldn’t rent a drift boat to run a class III river to start with.  (I would feel completely comfortable in class II, though.) Scott W.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland Hi Scott, Many fly shops rent drift boats.  I believe Dave Kumlien at the Orvis Store hear in Bozeman rents them. He is often on this group, you could ask him. Regarding handling a drift boat compared to handling a canoe, etc.: The fact you can read the water is definitely in your favor. When operating a canoe you are usually stroking forward on the paddle as you move downstream – usually a little faster than the current. Most of the time in a drift boat you are pulling back on the oars to slow you trip down the river. On a day the wind blows up stream you may have to push on the oars to go on downstream, depending how strong the current may be.  I’m a guide here in Montana and on the Yellowstone for example the wind usually blows downstream during the morning and upstream during the afternoon. So in the morning you are pulling like crazy on the oars and in the afternoon you are pusing on them.  It sure keep you in good shape. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future). I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland Hi Scott, Many fly shops rent drift boats.  I believe Dave Kumlien at the Orvis Store hear in Bozeman rents them. He is often on this group, you could ask him. Regarding handling a drift boat compared to handling a canoe, etc.: The fact you can read the water is definitely in your favor. When operating a canoe you are usually stroking forward on the paddle as you move downstream – usually a little faster than the current. Most of the time in a drift boat you are pulling back on the oars to slow you trip down the river. On a day the wind blows up stream you may have to push on the oars to go on downstream, depending how strong the current may be.  I’m a guide here in Montana and on the Yellowstone for example the wind usually blows downstream during the morning and upstream during the afternoon. So in the morning you are pulling like crazy on the oars and in the afternoon you are pusing on them.  It sure keep you in good shape. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

The makers of Hyde drift boats have an excellent video on the basics of using a drift boat.  They are located in Idaho Falls Idaho.  I think viewing it would be worth your time before you tried one.

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I am an expert whitewater kayaker and canoeist, and have years of experience reading and running almost every kind of river and rapids imaginable.  So unless there is something completely bizarre about drift boats that only much experience in a drift boat can prepare you for, I think I could handle one with no problems. Scott W. Maryland

There is a big difference between kayaking, canoeing, and driftboating. Kayak and canoe are paddled forward and you approach whitewater quite differently than in a drift boat. In a driftboat you row backwards into whitewater so the rapid approaches slower, and aim the ass end in the direction you want to go. A raft that you row handles similarly to a driftboat however, so you might wan’t to practice on a raft, which will bounce off if a mistake is made, before trying a drift boat. Maybe the rapids aren’t that big in your area in which case I should just shut up. You could also get a guide and then ask him if you could row for a while, I doubt he would object. Martin Allen

Response:

Though I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, does anybody out there rent drift boats without a guide/oarsman to go with them? I ask because I want to take one out for a day somewhere just to try it out (because I might buy one at some point in the future).

I rented a drift boat by myself a couple of days last July on the Missouri from the Missouri River Trout Shop in Craig.  They shuttled me up to the put-in below Holter Dam and I spent about 14 hours (including a midday break when the river was pretty dead) drifting down to the takeout in front of their place. Fortunately, they served dinner up until midnight or so so that I was able to eat after enjoying the late evening caddis hatch. I’m not an expert kayaker or oarsman, but I am reasonably competent.  I had no problems except one time when I anchored in fast water to fight what turned out to be a 20" rainbow, and then had to raise the anchor because he had most of my line downstream and wasn’t coming back.  I had to go to him.  Its not too hard maintaining a good course with an occasional push or pull of an oar, sometimes with just my knee.  It helped a lot that I had floated this same area a couple of times with a guide the year before, but the river was really quite different since the water flow in early July ‘95 (9,000 cfs or more) was a lot more than in July ‘94 (3,000 cfs). I had a large boat– set up for commercial guiding with an oarsman and two fishermen.  A smaller, lighter boat would have been better. Also, I don’t think I’d want to do it on a very narrow or very fast river.  Trying to fish by oneself from a drift boat on the Big Blackfoot would be pretty hard. Try it; you’ll like it. Phil Holt

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There is a big difference between kayaking, canoeing, and driftboating. Kayak and canoe are paddled forward and you approach whitewater quite differently than in a drift boat.

   True…but _reading_ water is identical in both cases: knowing how to recognize chutes, tongues, shallow water, holes, pillows, eddy lines, boils, side currents, etc. In a driftboat you row backwards into whitewater so the rapid approaches slower, and aim the ass end in the direction you want to go.

Okay, now I’m a bit confused.  I’ve seen photos (I think maybe in the Hyde brochure) of drift boats running big drops and punching holes with the bow of the boat pointing downstream, which makes sense, since this is how the boat will ride most effectively over waves. And whether you’re in a drift boat or a raft, you don’t want to be going too slow if there are any big holes to punch!  : ) A raft that you row handles similarly to a driftboat however, so you might wan’t to practice on a raft, which will bounce off if a mistake is made, before trying a drift boat.

Good idea…I might look into this. Maybe the rapids aren’t that big in your area in which case I should just shut up.

Well, the Potomac River gorge at this very moment is running at over 40,000 c.f.s. — far bigger than many western rivers!  (It averages around 10,000 c.f.s., no small potatoes.) I don’t say this in an argumentative way, but just to offer a slight nudge to western folks who think all the big whitewater is out there! We’ve got piles of gargantuan whitewater within 3 hours of Washington, DC: the Cheat River, the Gauley, the New, the Potomac, the Youghiogheny, etc. etc.   : ) —Scott W.

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Just remember to always keep the stern downstream and take the waves as Head- on as possible. The most common reason for capsizing a hard boat comes when the boat gets sideways in the current and one side dips bellow the water (highsiding) , where the current can push the boat into a rock or even the bank, the obsticle becoming the fulcrum and the boat acting as a lever. Don’t underestimate the power of moving water, use the rocker of the driftboat to push you up and over the waves, always keeping a close eye on what’s ahead long before you get there, the last thing you want are suprises. Hard boats are very capable of taking heavy water, but they row a lot differently than rafts and are much less forgiving. Play it safe and have fun!  PRAM JAMMER

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