Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » Deep Cycle Battery Life

Deep Cycle Battery Life

Question:

I recently purchased a Mini Bass boat and a minn kota trolling motor with it, 35lbs of thrust, I boutght a 12v deep cycle battery as well. My question is, how much "life" can I expect out of the battery? if used sparingly during the day, 3 hours? 6 hours? 8 hours? I know it depends on a lot of things, but I’m looking for a ball park figure. Wondering if I should get second as backup to take along. Other then that, fishing in Weymouth Mass was great this weekend lots of perch, but some pretty healthy largemouth. thanks in advance.

Response:

If the minkota has the maximizer feature and it’s a group 27 or larger battery, expect to fish two days on it, anyway. I can do that no problem with my 50 thrust minkota on a 14-1/2 footer. RichZ

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Category: Fly Fishing
Tags: Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Rods » Sage

Sage

Question:

Yes Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone tell me, if Sage-rods are really the best ones.

Response:

Hi, Tom. I have 3 Sage rods, a 590-3SP, a 389-LL, and a DS590-4 for a backup. They all cast differently. And they’re each suited to my needs. Sage service has been excellent, $20 for each of my problems. (I’ve had 4 through the years). The costs for new rods are not small, but you do get what you pay for. A good place to look for used or discounted Sages is www.flyshop.com Go to the auction. Tight lines. Dick Weinkle

Response:

Yes Dave

wow, someone from bainbridge who thinks sage rods are the best <G btw, i like them too. chris

Response:

after working in a fly shop for quite some time while, i have found that most beginners prefer slower action rods…theyre a little more forgiving… I think that’s true, but it can be unfortunate. A beginner’s rod to some degree teaches the beginner to cast. He’ll adjust his technique to the rod. There’s a place for both fast-action and slow-action rods. You should learn how to cast both kinds.

I must say that for fly fishing on difficult chalk streams, I, too, like a slow action. I think delicacy is more important than distance3, or even accuracy. My Sage LL 3-89 is my favourite rod for difficult trout. But I agree that lots of different people make good rods, and I think that when you’re starting, you should take a cheaper rod, and then decide what you like. I’ve just persuaded two starter fly fishers to buy Hardy 9 foot classics, 5/6 or 6/7 weight, which is outdated (and therefore cheap) but one of my favourite rods. I know that a number of other people who like me fish the Itchen and Test use the same rod. Tony

Response:

Can anyone tell me, if Sage-rods are really the best ones. What can you recomend? I whould likt to buy a new rod for dryfly-fishing (trouts in Austria). An advice for a good reel whould be helpful as well. Thanks Tom http://www.resi.at/tom-online Before you buy.

Response:

Tom, It is all a matter of opinion. Personally, I like Sage rods. I really like the lifetime warranty and the product, but that is just me. There are several good rods out on the market, but it is important to find the one that best suits YOU. Don’t get a rod just because people tell you it is the best. Cast and compare and find the one that suits your casting style and actually works for you. Unless of course you are merely modeling your gear. — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

Response:

Tom, That’s a very hard question to answer. It’s very difficult to say that one manufacturer’s rods are ‘the best’. There are a number of good rods around: Sage, Scott, Loomis, St. Croix, Redington, Powell, Orvis, & others. In addition, there are differences in action within a particular maker’s rods. For example, a Sage SP isn’t going to cast like an XP, which is different from an RPL+. A lot depends on your casting style, what kind of action feels good to you, and especially the conditions under which you’ll be fishing. Are the rivers large, the fish big, and will you be casting big flies ? Or are the rivers small, 10m – 15m or less, and the flies & the fish smaller as well? Unless you have a need to throw a lot of line or constantly must content with a lot of wind, a really fast action rod probably isn’t necessary. A Sage SP or a G-series Scott or similar might be just the ticket. But not if you don’t like the action. See what I mean? It’s very subjective. You really need to try as many different rods as you can to see what you like that’s within the price range you have in mind. I don’t know if you have access to St.Croix rods, but they seem to be a lot of rod for the money. I know I asked more questions than I answered, but I hope this helps some. Regards, Bob Before you buy.

Response:

Since you’re in Europe, you might find a Vivarelli reel more easy to locate there. Ask Mike Conner about them, they’re neat. Sage, like most companies, makes several rod actions. I would say that there’s a best action (for you) before I would say there’s a best rod brand. Some prefer a bit faster for fishing dries specifically, as far as purely casting goes. Jeff (looking for a used Sage VPS 9′ 5 wt myself) Can anyone tell me, if Sage-rods are really the best ones. What can you recomend? I whould likt to buy a new rod for dryfly-fishing (trouts in Austria). An advice for a good reel whould be helpful as well.

Before you buy.

Response:

after working in a fly shop for quite some time while, i have found that most beginners prefer slower action rods…theyre a little more forgiving…dont forget, as well, to think about what youre gonna be using your rod for…and if youre not sure how that works, ask the shop pro, he/she can tell ya…and if the shop you go to doesnt ask you if you want to cast rods to try them out…id try another shop… my 2cents, roy

Response:

after working in a fly shop for quite some time while, i have found that most beginners prefer slower action rods…theyre a little more forgiving…

I think that’s true, but it can be unfortunate. A beginner’s rod to some degree teaches the beginner to cast. He’ll adjust his technique to the rod. There’s a place for both fast-action and slow-action rods. You should learn how to cast both kinds. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing Rods
Tags: Fly Fishing Rods

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Flyfishing » Flyfishing at Myrtle

Flyfishing at Myrtle

Question:

Can anyone recommend a good area to fish in the Myrtle Beach (Indian Wells) area. I’ll be down there the end of April. Last time I was down there I didn’t do any fishing but it seemed like access would be a problem to some promising looking areas. Thanks… Bill

Response:

William, I’ve been gone from there since ‘92 and really don’t know what is now part of some monsterous resort but I used to access the salt marshes at Little River and down towards Murrells Inlet, Pauley’s, and Georgetown. at that time I did not fly fish at that time but when the tide was running right, usually had a good shot at redfish. There is a state park in Murrells Inlet which gave good access to the ocean if surf fishing is in your cards. Wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can anyone recommend a good area to fish in the Myrtle Beach (Indian Wells) area. I’ll be down there the end of April. Last time I was down there I didn’t do any fishing but it seemed like access would be a problem to some promising looking areas. Thanks… Bill

Response:

Thanks Wayne…Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – William, I’ve been gone from there since ‘92 and really don’t know what is now part of some monsterous resort but I used to access the salt marshes at Little River and down towards Murrells Inlet, Pauley’s, and Georgetown. at that time I did not fly fish at that time but when the tide was running right, usually had a good shot at redfish. There is a state park in Murrells Inlet which gave good access to the ocean if surf fishing is in your cards. Wayne Can anyone recommend a good area to fish in the Myrtle Beach (Indian Wells) area. I’ll be down there the end of April. Last time I was down there I didn’t do any fishing but it seemed like access would be a problem to some promising looking areas. Thanks… Bill

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Flyfishing
Tags: Flyfishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Flyfishing » Best lightweight stove

Best lightweight stove

Question:

Have you guys ever considered building a fire? Oh, right, that destroys the environment. Ever tried building a fire above tree line? In a 60 knot gale? In a rainstorm? Inside a tent? In 4 ft. of snow? Besides, having cooked over an open wood fire many times I know how difficult it is to keep the heat properly regulated. No thank you.

Um, no, in such situations, I usually leave the cooking (well, it’s really just putting yak butter in the tea) to the Sherpas…..and yeah, the persnickedy heat regulation of my cooking appliance would be amongst my main concerns in such a circumstance, especially considering we started out fishing…. <G R

Response:

Probably overkill if it’s going to be used exclusively as a streamside water boiler that lives in your fishing vest, but you won’t have to go through many MSR Whisperlites to make it economical in the long run if you use it for backpacking too. Can’t understand the aversion to the Whisperlite so evident in this group. I’ve been using mine for two years without a hint of trouble. Great little stove in my opinion.

Five years on mine, great stove and a good price. - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience." - Mike Connor

Response:

Can’t understand the aversion to the Whisperlite so evident in this group. I’ve been using mine for two years without a hint of trouble. Great little stove in my opinion. Five years on mine, great stove and a good price.

I’ve got four gripes with the MSR Whisperlite. 1) Reliability. Even with the cone shaped fuel filters on the intake tube it clogs too easily and once clogged it’s a pain to unclog. I’ve also had a priming cup fall off. MSR was real good about sending a replacement but that’s hardly any consolation 20 miles into the backcountry and in the middle of a trip. 2) Simmer. We sometimes like to do something besides just boil water. The Whisperlite has two settings, off and blow torch. 3) White gas. If you want to save weight and pack the stove in one of your pots that pot will always have a taste of white gas. 4) Wind. That cheesy aluminum contraption is close to useless and in a wind you could use up two days of fuel boiling up 1 liter of water. I’ve had 3 in 15 years, at $60 a stove I’ve spent $180 on MSR Whisperlites. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

My shakerjet has performed flawlessly, never clogged. 2) Simmer. We sometimes like to do something besides just boil water. The Whisperlite has two settings, off and blow torch.

Gotta admit, it takes a lot of practice, but with the right amount of pressure and adjustments you can get it to simmer, but yeah it’s not easy. 3) White gas. If you want to save weight and pack the stove in one of your pots that pot will always have a taste of white gas.

Haven’t noticed. 4) Wind. That cheesy aluminum contraption is close to useless and in a wind you could use up two days of fuel boiling up 1 liter of water.

Agreed, the aluminum is worthless. I usually build up a small stone or wood wall to block the wind when it’s a problem. It’s usually not much of a problem since I spend much of my time down on the forest floor. YMMV, - Ken — ET1 – Evil Twin #1 "Guilt replaced the fun" – ROFF-Tim "Ethical conduct is purely a personal thing, and the only arbiter of personal ethics is your own conscience." - Mike Connor

Response:

Ever tried building a fire above tree line? In a 60 knot gale? In a rainstorm? Inside a tent? In 4 ft. of snow? Besides, having cooked over an open wood fire many times I know how difficult it is to keep the heat properly regulated. No thank you. Um, no, in such situations, I usually leave the cooking (well, it’s really just putting yak butter in the tea) to the Sherpas…..and yeah, the persnickedy heat regulation of my cooking appliance would be amongst my main concerns in such a circumstance, especially considering we started out fishing….

LOL!

Response:

I really like the ‘gaz’ stoves. The cartridges are not compact, but they are inexpensive, very easy to light and use, and the fuel cannisters are cheap.

What he said. Also, there is no fuel to spill and, in the 270/470 series, you can change canisters before they run empty. Pizo ignition available. I gave up on the white gas/multi-fuel stoves a long time ago, even for extended backpacking trips. I can’t imagine anything easier for a quick trailside or streamside lunch… Cheers, -Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

Response:

Been fairly partial to my coleman peak stoves for a while now, not that small and light but they will boil a quart of water for that streamside irish coffee way fast. Flyfish

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But now the best lightweight stove is available from Sierra Trading Post for $120. You’ve GOT to be kidding! Propane burner? Not in this lifetime Bubba!

Response:

In 1969, I bought a terrific little stove from REI, the "Enders Baby." Far superior, IMHO, to any other backpacking stove. Now, after 30 years, it needs a new part, but it seems to be no longer available. Does anyone know anything about parts for this stove? vince norris

Response:

I really like the ‘gaz’ stoves. The cartridges are not compact, but they are inexpensive, very easy to light and use, and the fuel cannisters are cheap. What he said. Also, there is no fuel to spill and, in the 270/470 series, you can change canisters before they run empty. Pizo ignition available. I gave up on the white gas/multi-fuel stoves a long time ago, even for extended backpacking trips. I can’t imagine anything easier for a quick trailside or streamside lunch…

Indeed, probably the only advantage to a white gas stove is its cold weather performance. I use an MSR Rapidfire gas-cartidge stove most of the year, but it begins to flag when the temperature is below 40, and it’s not practical below freezing–just about like the kind of fishing I do. DS

Response:

Been fairly partial to my coleman peak stoves for a while now, not that small and light but they will boil a quart of water for that streamside irish coffee way fast. Flyfish

Been using my coleman peak for over five years with no problems — can’t say the same for any of my previous stoves. On extended trips where weight and bulk are considerations, I use a Sierra stove. The thing works as advertised but really blackens the pots with soot. Yuck! It is a modern version of a hobo stove using a battery powered fan. No fuel to carry. If interested in a biased view go to http://yahi.csustan.edu/~gcrawfor/zip/zipstove.html (I agree with the site). The manufacturers site is http://www.gorp.com/zzstove/sierra.htm. Or you can get info on making a very cheap alcohol stove that works at http://www.idi.ntnu.no/~ttr/stove.html.

Response:

In recent years, I have really enjoyed using the GAZ propane/butane stoves. Mine has been extremely reliable, clean, simmers better than anything else, and couldn’t be simpler to use. You do need to shelter the stove from the wind. You can usually find the stove for about $20, cartridges are about $3. I started using this stove for bivies above timberline on climbs. I wanted a stove I KNEW was going to light without all the attendant problems and mess of white gas. It has never let me down. Ted – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve got four gripes with the MSR Whisperlite. 1) Reliability. Even with the cone shaped fuel filters on the intake tube it clogs too easily and once clogged it’s a pain to unclog. I’ve also had a priming cup fall off. MSR was real good about sending a replacement but that’s hardly any consolation 20 miles into the backcountry and in the middle of a trip. 2) Simmer. We sometimes like to do something besides just boil water. The Whisperlite has two settings, off and blow torch. 3) White gas. If you want to save weight and pack the stove in one of your pots that pot will always have a taste of white gas. 4) Wind. That cheesy aluminum contraption is close to useless and in a wind you could use up two days of fuel boiling up 1 liter of water. I’ve had 3 in 15 years, at $60 a stove I’ve spent $180 on MSR Whisperlites. — Ken Fortenberry

Before you buy.

Response:

Ditto. 2) Simmer. We sometimes like to do something besides just boil water. The Whisperlite has two settings, off and blow torch. Gotta admit, it takes a lot of practice, but with the right amount of pressure and adjustments you can get it to simmer, but yeah it’s not easy.

Definitely a pain in the ass. My only real gripe with this stove. 3) White gas. If you want to save weight and pack the stove in one of your pots that pot will always have a taste of white gas. Haven’t noticed.

Ditto 4) Wind. That cheesy aluminum contraption is close to useless and in a wind you could use up two days of fuel boiling up 1 liter of water. Agreed, the aluminum is worthless. I usually build up a small stone or wood wall to block the wind when it’s a problem. It’s usually not much of a problem since I spend much of my time down on the forest floor.

My newest cook pot (MSR) matches the diameter of the aluminum wind screen pretty precisely. Using this pot, I have no problems at all with the wind.

Response:

I really like the ‘gaz’ stoves. The cartridges are not compact, but they are inexpensive, very easy to light and use, and the fuel cannisters are cheap. — Particle Salad/ Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad mp3 songs: http://www.mp3.com/particlesalad

Response:

So is the Coleman Peak 1. Neither will fit in a vest, but will do just fine in a daypack. The peak 1 also has an integral fuel tank that will hold more than enough fuel for the day, or even an unplanned overnight, eliminating the need for a separate fuel bottle.

My best friend used to have a Peak 1 but eventually gave it up in favor of the smaller and lighter Whisperlite. the Coleman stove DID have better control though.

Response:

There was some discussion here lately about stoves that would fit in a vest and do a good job of boiling water for a streamside lunch. The best stove ever for this purpose is being discontinued and I don’t know why. I was reluctant to mention it before because frankly, it was quite pricey and Wayno would give me all sorts of shit for being a pretentious, yuppie spendthrift. But now the best lightweight stove is available from Sierra Trading Post for $120. Go to: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/ then do an Item Number Search on 64103. Highly recommended flyfishing or backpacking stove, IMHO. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

All the suckers already have one? I was reluctant to mention it before because frankly, it was quite pricey and Wayno would give me all sorts of shit for being a <CUT

Well, in case Wayno too busy to point out the painful truth… A TWO HUNDRED DOLLAR VALVE??? Well, OK, it is now only a HUNDRED AND TWENTY DOLLAR valve. What are you, Cuz, a <PASTEpretentious, yuppie spendthrift? OPEC spends less on orbit valves….<G But now the best lightweight stove is available from Sierra Trading Post for $120. Go to: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/ then do an Item Number Search on 64103. Highly recommended flyfishing or backpacking stove, IMHO.

Well, at least it IS on sale, and it is a Primus, and it has a piezo igniter, (Sorry, I had some backed-up sarcasm from the buildup passing on the OED Gink definition earlier….) TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Well, it takes a little bit longer to boil water, but the Trangia Westwind alcohol stove is less than $20, and is quite small enough to fit in a vest.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There was some discussion here lately about stoves that would fit in a vest and do a good job of boiling water for a streamside lunch. The best stove ever for this purpose is being discontinued and I don’t know why. All the suckers already have one? I was reluctant to mention it before because frankly, it was quite pricey and Wayno would give me all sorts of shit for being a <CUT Well, in case Wayno too busy to point out the painful truth… A TWO HUNDRED DOLLAR VALVE??? Well, OK, it is now only a HUNDRED AND TWENTY DOLLAR valve. What are you, Cuz, a <PASTEpretentious, yuppie spendthrift? OPEC spends less on orbit valves….<G But now the best lightweight stove is available from Sierra Trading Post for $120. Go to: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/ then do an Item Number Search on 64103. Highly recommended flyfishing or backpacking stove, IMHO. Well, at least it IS on sale, and it is a Primus, and it has a piezo igniter, (Sorry, I had some backed-up sarcasm from the buildup passing on the OED Gink definition earlier….) TC, R — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Well, it takes a little bit longer to boil water, but the Trangia Westwind alcohol stove is less than $20, and is quite small enough to fit in a vest.

Have you guys ever considered building a fire? Oh, right, that destroys the environment. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Second that – The Trangia is awesome. Highly recommended. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, it takes a little bit longer to boil water, but the Trangia Westwind alcohol stove is less than $20, and is quite small enough to fit in a vest.

Response:

Can’t understand the aversion to the Whisperlite so evident in this group. I’ve been using mine for two years without a hint of trouble. Great little stove in my opinion.

I’ve got it’s predecessor and it does the job for me too, FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

Can’t understand the aversion to the Whisperlite so evident in this group. I’ve been using mine for two years without a hint of trouble. Great little stove in my opinion.

Response:

Have you guys ever considered building a fire? Oh, right, that destroys the environment.

Response:

… A TWO HUNDRED DOLLAR VALVE??? …

A 4 ounce, titanium, $200 valve. Absolutely elegant in its simplicity and positively bomb proof for life. This stove has long been considered the creme de la creme of lightweight backpacking & mountaineering stoves. Probably overkill if it’s going to be used exclusively as a streamside water boiler that lives in your fishing vest, but you won’t have to go through many MSR Whisperlites to make it economical in the long run if you use it for backpacking too. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

But now the best lightweight stove is available from Sierra Trading Post for $120.

You’ve GOT to be kidding! Propane burner? Not in this lifetime Bubba!

Response:

Can’t understand the aversion to the Whisperlite so evident in this group. I’ve been using mine for two years without a hint of trouble. Great little stove in my opinion.

Response:

Hey Tony, I’ve heard of these but never understood how they worked – where could I get one? thanks babob Do any of you on the other side of the Atlantic use volcano kettles (Kelly and similar)?

Tony Deacon

Response:

Hey Tony, I’ve heard of these but never understood how they worked – where could I get one?

Couldn’t find a URL, but: The Kelly Kettle Co Ltd Woolaway Chesterton Fields Farm Fosse Way Leamington Spa CV33 9JY England Tel/Fax Int. +44 (0)1926 651460 (leave out 0 if dialling from overseas) Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Volcano kettles might be OK for Scottish Lochs, but open fires are generally prohibited by law on US western rivers during the dry season (fire hazards). I just bought a Primus PBS 2243 from a local REI-Coop sale. The whole stove stows away in a pouch about the size of my palm; Primus LP-gas canisters are available everywhere, including europe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve read this thread with interest. I have one of the original MSR multi-fuel stoves that I bought 16 or 17 years ago. Great little stove, but damned expensive; the wind shield melted and I had some problems with blocked jets with some fuels. I think it now needs a pretty full service. Do any of you on the other side of the Atlantic use volcano kettles (Kelly and similar)? These are used by most of the gillies and anglers on the Irish lakes for the mandatory lunchtime brew. They consist of a simple aluminium water jacket. You stuff the chimney with twigs, bark; pine needles; twists of old newspaper, etc. and apply a match. It’s quite an efficient way to boil water, since much of the heat passes out through the water in the jacket, cf. up the flue. They are only for boiling water, but that seems to be all that most of you use a stove for. Cheap; simple; fuel efficient; last for years. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I can’t argue with that Mark but after 20 yrs with the same pack stove, (the original design out over 100 yrs ago) That would be the Optimus SVEA123R, might’ve been called something else way back then. I finally had to order the first part for my stove last week, seems the airline baggage handlers were doing a test-to-destruction on the little plastic ice chest it was packed in. The b*stards bent the windscreen so bad that it wouldn’t fit anymore. One week and 20 bucks later it is good as new. The folks who sent me the part also included a brochure for a Russian Army stove that is a perfect knockoff of the Optimus Hunter 8R, on sale in this country now for about 45 bucks. My Optimus rides always in my pickup, and most mornings on my delivery trips it makes my coffee to my taste, not some swill you find in a truck stop. Ok, call me picky…it’s never failed me and as a result ‘we’ have developed a burning relationship. ) Frank (fire in the hole) Church —– Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web —– —– http://newsone.net/ — Discussions on every subject. —– NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam. If this or other posts

Response:

Hi again, Frank & Group! What he said. Also, there is no fuel to spill and, in the 270/470 series, you can change canisters before they run empty. Pizo ignition available. I gave up on the white gas/multi-fuel stoves a long time ago, even for extended backpacking trips. I can’t imagine anything easier for a quick trailside or streamside lunch… Cheers, -Mark I can’t argue with that Mark but after 20 yrs with the same pack stove, (the original design out over 100 yrs ago) That would be the Optimus SVEA123R,

might’ve been called something else way back then. I finally had to order

As far as I know, its always been the Svea 123. Did Optimus buy them out I wonder? the first part for my stove last week, seems the airline baggage handlers were doing a test-to-destruction on the little plastic ice chest it was packed in. The b*stards bent the windscreen so bad that it wouldn’t fit anymore. One week and 20 bucks later it is good as new. The folks who sent me the part also included a brochure for a Russian Army stove that is a perfect knockoff of the Optimus Hunter 8R, on sale in this country now for

You know, the Optimus 8R is the first backpacking stove I owned. I put a lot ‘o miles on that little puppy. In the end, I gave it to my Brother-in-law when I got my first GAZ stove. As far as I know, he is still using it. the fact that there are still Svea 123 stoves out there in use is excellent testament to their durability. Yup, the reason I switched to GAZ stoves, (and lanterns), is ease of use and absence of white gas to spill. One of the problems I experienced with white gas stoves had to do with gas being expanded out of the fuel tank and/or fuel bottle due to changes in altitude: I would fill up stove and fuel bottles at my home, (sea level), and then drive up a trailhead at 7 or 8 thousand feet and _then_ start hiking up from there. Often, fuel would be foreced out of the stove tank or fuel bottle, leaving me with much less fuel than I planned on _and_ getting white gas fumes and some liquid in my backpack…. I don’t do much backpacking in sub freezing temperatures any more, but the new butane/propane fuel mixture seems to work well in cool mornings at altitude. (The old trick was to put the fuel canister in your sleeping bag to keep it warm. I never did this.) **Important recycling note**: My local recycler accepts my used fuel canisters for recycling. I’m not sure that all recycling centers will. If you plan on using GAZ products a lot, this recycling issue may be important to you. If I couldn’t recycle GAZ fuel tanks, I probably wouldn’t use them myself….YMMV. about 45 bucks. My Optimus rides always in my pickup, and most mornings on my delivery trips it makes my coffee to my taste, not some swill you find in a truck stop. Ok, call me picky…it’s never failed me and as a result ‘we’ have developed a burning relationship. )

Always nice to have something you can warm up to! :-) Frank (fire in the hole) Church

Cheers, happy trials, tight lines, and hot coffee! -Mark

Response:

I’ve read this thread with interest. I have one of the original MSR multi-fuel stoves that I bought 16 or 17 years ago. Great little stove, but damned expensive; the wind shield melted and I had some problems with blocked jets with some fuels. I think it now needs a pretty full service. Do any of you on the other side of the Atlantic use volcano kettles (Kelly and similar)? These are used by most of the gillies and anglers on the Irish lakes for the mandatory lunchtime brew. They consist of a simple aluminium water jacket. You stuff the chimney with twigs, bark; pine needles; twists of old newspaper, etc. and apply a match. It’s quite an efficient way to boil water, since much of the heat passes out through the water in the jacket, cf. up the flue. They are only for boiling water, but that seems to be all that most of you use a stove for. Cheap; simple; fuel efficient; last for years. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Flyfishing
Tags: Flyfishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Flyfishing » RFD: Peace with honor. Please read and consider.

RFD: Peace with honor. Please read and consider.

Question:

My friends, lend me your eyes. But it WILL require EVERYONE to cooperate, or the effort is doomed to fail.

Definitely worth a try. George and Co. have never got under my skin (mind you I do see how they can), but I suspect a little tolerance and a big dose of common sense could see us get through. Like the trout we talk often about, we need to be more selective in the lures or baits that we take – and ignore the baits some Cheers JK

Response:

(snipped)

Dave, Add a clause that I am to have all of my deposit retuned in FULL! If you would please. I would like this corrected before moving on. HT

Response:

______ Not fair Mark. Very undeserving, especially from someone that should be a fair minded attorney? sigh* MR. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

We’ll simply leave the past in the past – where it belongs – while implicitly forgiving the transgressions that may have taken place in that time. No apologies required by anyone; everyone saves face by default.

This would work if folks had learned anything from what happened in the past, but I don’t think that’s true in all cases. Forgetting the past is a dangerous thing, especially in this case which is in its’ umpteenth cycle in the little passion play called roff. My advice is to ignore the trolls but continue to be wary of the troller (the poetry could start again, you know<g). — Charlie…

Response:

What I’m proposing is the group allows George a fresh start – and that in turn, George not abuse that act of faith and trust.

Sounds good to me. Will it work? Unlikely, but let’s give it a shot. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Well said, Peter. This is not a matter of anti-George or pro-George. The guy has a screw loose, and as much as I enjoy picking on him occasionally it is not good for either of us. Time to treat him like the meower. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [genuine, noble effort snipped] Sincerely – and with great hope, /dave tatosian (aka daytripper) Trip, I’ve met a few men like George in my life and in all the time I knew them, they never changed for the better. After all, why change when you’re perfect. :) Anyway, for any peace to accrue in these parts, we simply have to give George’s spamming and trolling the same consideration as we’ve given the meower. The most important thing in George’s life is to be the constant centre of everyone’s attention. Forty and fifty post threads with the subject "Mr. G." are his lifeblood. George cannot post without taunting and boasting about his stuff anymore than I’d qualify for the clergy. Given that, it’s up to the rest of us to take the pledge: I do solemnly swear to not respond to any of George’s spamming, trolling, baiting and taunting, no matter how serious the provocation, so help me ROFF. No doubt that as is the pledge becomes effective, the George spam-o-meter will go off the dial as he responds in the attempt to reassert himself as the centre of the universe, but within a reasonably short space of time if we stick to the pledge, peace will reign supreme on the G front. Peter

Response:

Dave, As one who just watched the thread, I hereby make a pledge and vow not to fall for his trolls in the future, no matter how strongly provoked. Gandhi once said, The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Happy New Year David. I forgive you. ; ) Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

<good suggestions snipped Dave, As one who just watched the thread, I hereby make a pledge and vow not to fall for his trolls in the future, no matter how strongly provoked. Gandhi once said, The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. Best Regards, Dave Blackett aka bc. — Angling may be said to be so like the mathematics that it can never be fully learnt — Izaak Walton

Response:

Wayne, Of course you are correct about this. He changed his sign from Mr. G to Mr Gink just for this purpose. He seems to be a firm believer in "there is no such thing as bad publicity". I for one do not welcome George back to ROFF because I am a believer in the saying "a leopard can’t change it’s spots". It won’t be long until he reverts back to the old George that he wants everyone to forget. I am placing him back on my filter and I hope the members of ROFF don’t repeat too many of his posts in their posts. Happy New Year Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, in watching the current Nymphing ROFF thread a couple of things come to mind regarding your suggestions. The very people attacking George most adamantly are performing for him a great service. A primary tenent of marketing strategy is repeating your product name before the public. Even though some people try to make it a negative conotation their comments still serve the strategy. On the other hand, some of George’s posts seem to suggest he intentionally invites controversy (ie. twitch, twitch). Given the possibility of an element of intentional provocation and the natural tendency in ROFF for detailed personal defense, I have doubts even the best devised guidelines will serve your intended purpose. In any case, I’m afraid the horse has bolted the gate and is already on the course. Wayne

Response:

[genuine, noble effort snipped] Sincerely – and with great hope, /dave tatosian (aka daytripper)

Trip, I’ve met a few men like George in my life and in all the time I knew them, they never changed for the better. After all, why change when you’re perfect. :) Anyway, for any peace to accrue in these parts, we simply have to give George’s spamming and trolling the same consideration as we’ve given the meower. The most important thing in George’s life is to be the constant centre of everyone’s attention. Forty and fifty post threads with the subject "Mr. G." are his lifeblood. George cannot post without taunting and boasting about his stuff anymore than I’d qualify for the clergy. Given that, it’s up to the rest of us to take the pledge: I do solemnly swear to not respond to any of George’s spamming, trolling, baiting and taunting, no matter how serious the provocation, so help me ROFF. No doubt that as is the pledge becomes effective, the George spam-o-meter will go off the dial as he responds in the attempt to reassert himself as the centre of the universe, but within a reasonably short space of time if we stick to the pledge, peace will reign supreme on the G front. Peter

Response:

holy shit tripper…whatever it is that induced this, can ya send me a shipment? i’ve a bunch of clients that need a dose (toke?) immediately! seriously though – nice thought and hope it works. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My friends, lend me your eyes. This constant warring between the pro- and anti- George factions is taking a toll on my karma. And I don’t like it. And I don’t see a need for it to continue. There CAN be peace on roff in my time, if everyone could simply make an investment in faith and trust. But it WILL require EVERYONE to cooperate, or the effort is doomed to fail. As one participant in this group who was the target of a series of slanderous attacks last fall from the same person that I had previously defended in this place, I think I have the right to make the following proposal. I’m willing to forgive and forget, without anyone having to apologize to me, and move on with life. I’d appreciate it if you all would read this, and consider it. At this point you should all know that I certainly don’t have any stake in this, outside of the desire to establish the peace and maintain some sense of decorum. I am hereby proposing that a deal be struck between George and those who so far just can’t seem to forgive mistakes made in the past. If faithfully followed, the group will regain a gregarious fellow with a long and interesting flyfishing background and experience. In return the group won’t be forced to endure further onslaughts of unsolicited advertisements and suspect product endorsements. Here’s the deal. It’s damned simple: Part 1. The parties of the first part – George Gehrke, his employees, his partners, resellers, and anyone else with a financial interest in George’s business interests – will refrain from unsolicited merchandizing of his various products in this forum, just like the conduct expected of any other commercial interest. Part 2. All other parties will refrain from continuing their relentless attacks on George for any perceived transgression(s) presumed to have been perpetrated by George in the past. Further, if said parties have nothing meaningful to contribute to any ongoing topic or thread in this conference where George is a contributor, they should post nothing at all. What I’m proposing is the group allows George a fresh start – and that in turn, George not abuse that act of faith and trust. Reasonable people may disagree with what constitutes "suitable context" – but if someone comes looking for stuff that makes things sink or float – or are shopping for cane rods or blanks – I would consider those instances to be proper context where George could suggest that he has a solution worth considering. This doesn’t give George a green light to insult the intelligence or sensibilities of the group with over-the-top advertisements. Nor should a follow-up post by George suggesting that he has a product that will solve a problem constitute a red flag waving at those who currently have a penchant to attack each and every post that George makes. I believe that this would be a worthwhile project for this group – and George – to take on, with the advent of the new year. I offer it as a way for everyone to make a peace – and hopefully a long lasting one – without anyone having to apologize, confess, or otherwise atone for past mistakes of judgement or passion. We’ll simply leave the past in the past – where it belongs – while implicitly forgiving the transgressions that may have taken place in that time. No apologies required by anyone; everyone saves face by default. Could this work? Yes, if the group is committed to peace. Please consider it. Sincerely – and with great hope, /dave tatosian (aka daytripper)

Response:

(Well thought and balanced guidelines snipped) Dave, in watching the current Nymphing ROFF thread a couple of things come to mind regarding your suggestions. The very people attacking George most adamantly are performing for him a great service. A primary tenent of marketing strategy is repeating your product name before the public. Even though some people try to make it a negative conotation their comments still serve the strategy. On the other hand, some of George’s posts seem to suggest he intentionally invites controversy (ie. twitch, twitch). Given the possibility of an element of intentional provocation and the natural tendency in ROFF for detailed personal defense, I have doubts even the best devised guidelines will serve your intended purpose. In any case, I’m afraid the horse has bolted the gate and is already on the course. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

Amen and amen. However, I think it should only pertain to posts from George and his employees. George might have influence but not control over others that have a financial interest in his products. It is true that George could influenced other people that have a "financial interest" in his products to make an advertizing post. However, it is also possible that the other person is acting independently. If we then baroque Mr. G, we are in the wrong. Maybe my suggestion is more long-suffering than yours, but I think it’s truly the most fair one. Let’s give Mr. G. the benefit of the doubt when we can. Mr. G. will either hang or prove himself. We just need to give him enough rope to tie a noose or pull himself ashore. Vern – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Part 1. The parties of the first part – George Gehrke, his employees, his partners, resellers, and anyone else with a financial interest in George’s business interests – will refrain from unsolicited merchandizing of his various products in this forum, just like the conduct expected of any other commercial interest. Part 2. All other parties will refrain from continuing their relentless attacks on George for any perceived transgression(s) presumed to have been perpetrated by George in the past. Further, if said parties have nothing meaningful to contribute to any ongoing topic or thread in this conference where George is a contributor, they should post nothing at all.

Response:

In the Big Picture(tm) you’re correct, Herman. But there are already Usenet guidelines that address the broader constructs for discussion groups under the Big 8 hierarchy. Clearly these guidelines have been ignored for some time in this case… This is not legislation that I’ve proposed, it’s a "serving suggestion" that addresses a specific concern in as gentle a fashion as possible while still providing some substance to chew on. Take it or leave it on its own merits. And thanks for your support. /daytripper

Response:

Why not. It cant do any harm to try. While admitting to some reservations about the wisdom of "forgiving and forgetting" in some circumstances, and also about the necessity for having separate regulatory agreements, which are basically unenforceable in any case, apart from the intrinsic regulatory factors which govern the groups individual behaviour in any case, such as the good sense, good manners, good taste, and propriety of the individuals concerned, if peace is the only objective, then perhaps the end justifies the means in this case. I will refrain from any posts at all concerning the material mentioned, until such time as the tacit agreement you suggest, ( or actual, should it be agreed to by all parties , which I doubt ), is broken, or flagrantly misused.

LOL! Ok, Mike, I appreciate your cooperation, if not enthusiastic support. "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible"

That’s ^^^^ profoundly appropriate. /daytripper (saving my dogma from being run over by my karma)

Response:

daytripper, thanks for expressing my feelings . BUT: Imho it’s a bit short-sighted to build a wall solely against George and partners/customers. What would be more appropriate is a guideline for spam and misconduct in general. We’ve all been assoles here, and most have been forgiven, others left. I don’t believe George is the personalized evil. No one is. If someone is out of line, he or she can be addressed to that. Plain and simple. Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My friends, lend me your eyes. This constant warring between the pro- and anti- George factions is taking a toll on my karma. And I don’t like it. And I don’t see a need for it to continue. There CAN be peace on roff in my time, if everyone could simply make an investment in faith and trust. But it WILL require EVERYONE to cooperate, or the effort is doomed to fail. As one participant in this group who was the target of a series of slanderous attacks last fall from the same person that I had previously defended in this place, I think I have the right to make the following proposal. I’m willing to forgive and forget, without anyone having to apologize to me, and move on with life. I’d appreciate it if you all would read this, and consider it. At this point you should all know that I certainly don’t have any stake in this, outside of the desire to establish the peace and maintain some sense of decorum. I am hereby proposing that a deal be struck between George and those who so far just can’t seem to forgive mistakes made in the past. If faithfully followed, the group will regain a gregarious fellow with a long and interesting flyfishing background and experience. In return the group won’t be forced to endure further onslaughts of unsolicited advertisements and suspect product endorsements. Here’s the deal. It’s damned simple: Part 1. The parties of the first part – George Gehrke, his employees, his partners, resellers, and anyone else with a financial interest in George’s business interests – will refrain from unsolicited merchandizing of his various products in this forum, just like the conduct expected of any other commercial interest. Part 2. All other parties will refrain from continuing their relentless attacks on George for any perceived transgression(s) presumed to have been perpetrated by George in the past. Further, if said parties have nothing meaningful to contribute to any ongoing topic or thread in this conference where George is a contributor, they should post nothing at all. What I’m proposing is the group allows George a fresh start – and that in turn, George not abuse that act of faith and trust. Reasonable people may disagree with what constitutes "suitable context" – but if someone comes looking for stuff that makes things sink or float – or are shopping for cane rods or blanks – I would consider those instances to be proper context where George could suggest that he has a solution worth considering. This doesn’t give George a green light to insult the intelligence or sensibilities of the group with over-the-top advertisements. Nor should a follow-up post by George suggesting that he has a product that will solve a problem constitute a red flag waving at those who currently have a penchant to attack each and every post that George makes. I believe that this would be a worthwhile project for this group – and George – to take on, with the advent of the new year. I offer it as a way for everyone to make a peace – and hopefully a long lasting one – without anyone having to apologize, confess, or otherwise atone for past mistakes of judgement or passion. We’ll simply leave the past in the past – where it belongs – while implicitly forgiving the transgressions that may have taken place in that time. No apologies required by anyone; everyone saves face by default. Could this work? Yes, if the group is committed to peace. Please consider it. Sincerely – and with great hope, /dave tatosian (aka daytripper)

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

My friends, lend me your eyes.

<SNIP

Response:

My friends, lend me your eyes. This constant warring between the pro- and anti- George factions is taking a toll on my karma. And I don’t like it. And I don’t see a need for it to continue. There CAN be peace on roff in my time, if everyone could simply make an investment in faith and trust. But it WILL require EVERYONE to cooperate, or the effort is doomed to fail. As one participant in this group who was the target of a series of slanderous attacks last fall from the same person that I had previously defended in this place, I think I have the right to make the following proposal. I’m willing to forgive and forget, without anyone having to apologize to me, and move on with life. I’d appreciate it if you all would read this, and consider it. At this point you should all know that I certainly don’t have any stake in this, outside of the desire to establish the peace and maintain some sense of decorum. I am hereby proposing that a deal be struck between George and those who so far just can’t seem to forgive mistakes made in the past. If faithfully followed, the group will regain a gregarious fellow with a long and interesting flyfishing background and experience. In return the group won’t be forced to endure further onslaughts of unsolicited advertisements and suspect product endorsements. Here’s the deal. It’s damned simple: Part 1. The parties of the first part – George Gehrke, his employees, his partners, resellers, and anyone else with a financial interest in George’s business interests – will refrain from unsolicited merchandizing of his various products in this forum, just like the conduct expected of any other commercial interest. Part 2. All other parties will refrain from continuing their relentless attacks on George for any perceived transgression(s) presumed to have been perpetrated by George in the past. Further, if said parties have nothing meaningful to contribute to any ongoing topic or thread in this conference where George is a contributor, they should post nothing at all. What I’m proposing is the group allows George a fresh start – and that in turn, George not abuse that act of faith and trust. Reasonable people may disagree with what constitutes "suitable context" – but if someone comes looking for stuff that makes things sink or float – or are shopping for cane rods or blanks – I would consider those instances to be proper context where George could suggest that he has a solution worth considering. This doesn’t give George a green light to insult the intelligence or sensibilities of the group with over-the-top advertisements. Nor should a follow-up post by George suggesting that he has a product that will solve a problem constitute a red flag waving at those who currently have a penchant to attack each and every post that George makes. I believe that this would be a worthwhile project for this group – and George – to take on, with the advent of the new year. I offer it as a way for everyone to make a peace – and hopefully a long lasting one – without anyone having to apologize, confess, or otherwise atone for past mistakes of judgement or passion. We’ll simply leave the past in the past – where it belongs – while implicitly forgiving the transgressions that may have taken place in that time. No apologies required by anyone; everyone saves face by default. Could this work? Yes, if the group is committed to peace. Please consider it. Sincerely – and with great hope, /dave tatosian (aka daytripper)

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Flyfishing
Tags: Flyfishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » Fishing Frankfurt

Fishing Frankfurt

Question:

I’m considering an expat job in Frankfurt Germany. A quality of life question: Is there good fishing around there – fly fishing preferably, any fishing in a pinch? Thanks for the help – FlyFisherRay

Response:

Hi Ray, I lived in Frankfurt for some time and never found any decent fishing. If you are prepared to, and can afford to travel, you can reach some good fishing. It is quite difficult to obtain a fishing licence here, you have to pass an exam. If you need further specific info e-mail me and I will try to be of assistance. I now live in a small village not far from Hamburg, but I should have no trouble providing you with the relative info. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Author: admin on
Category: Fly Fishing
Tags: Fly Fishing

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Rods » Accurate Casting – Can You Cast Accurately?

Accurate Casting – Can You Cast Accurately?

Question:

yep agree completely…as a newbie to the sport I finally got serious and traded in the 7 wt telephone pole and now use a nice Redington actually it was a gift from a friend. I have practised with that sucker and gone to some classes and it certainly does help with a newer model and constant practise I agree whole heartedly with your assesment and here on the Bow River you NEED practise. but then the rewards are great! Pierre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well I had to take a second look at my casting when I got and Orvis Trident 6wt. after sending in my PM10 to be repaired (broken tip) They took over a month so they gave me an upgrade in the form of the new Trident. I tried the Trident and decided I liked the PM10 better, it hid my mistakes but when I told the fly shop guy I liked the PM10 better he said most people really don’t know how to cast but if I still wanted a PM10 again I could trade back. I got slightly offended but decided to give it another chance, I looked back through the magazine casting tips and practiced. I am by no means the best and real instruction would help me alot but I can fish trout here in Colo half a day making 10′ – 30′ then fish bass or whatever using heavy patterns at long distances the rest of the day. I find simple mistakes make a difference like for acccuracy having the right foot forward I look at others casting and many have thier feet together or they move thier bodies too much during a short cast, or people making too many false casts when going for distance with too much line out to control. Sometimes when everything is working right I don’t have to think about casting, I just do it and it reminds me of some type of dance or martial arts where everything is smooth and rythmic and as fast or slow short or long as it needs to be. Onew thing I know is if you have to work too hard with the right equiptment you are to blame. If not for the guy at the fly shop I would still be making the same mistakes that my teaching myself to cast has caused. Enjoy… nyroc.rr.com… IMHO, the importantance of casting accurately far exceeds the ability to cast distance. Recently I read an article where the author has that same opinion. However, I’d like to share the authors definition of casting accuracy and hear your comments. Here is the section of the article in which the author provides his/her (author is unknown) definition. Also, note the title of the article: "YOU CAN’T CAST! …. between 70 & 80% of fly fishers just can’t cast. Very simply put … putting the fly where it belongs. The question is…"Can you put your fly where you want it 85% of the time?" If you can’t, then you can’t cast! A good test for casting ability is to put a 24" circle at about 30 feet and see how many times you can put the fly in the circle. The 30 foot range is about the average cast you might make when fishing for trout. Even with a breeze, getting the fly in the circle 9 out of 10 casts is possible". Now I’ve participated in several similar exercises at which there were about 20 flyfishers, guides, casting instructors and fly fishing retailers. I will withhold the results of those experiences until after you ROFFians have a chance to express your opinions. I hope you who reply base your opinions on experience rather then wishful thinking or ego. So let’s hear it. Using typical trout equipment for a medium stream, how many can drop a fly within 12 inches of the center of a 24 inch circle while standing about 30′ away, knee deep or deeper in a stream/river in typical trout season weather? Hi Allan, the author is perfectly correct, as indeed you are. Accuracy is of paramount importance. We now regularly hold special casting clinics here at one of my local clubs. The first one we held, some years ago, was a cast-in for the whole area, as further instructors were needed at many clubs in order to comply with the German fishing laws that casting skill of a certain level must be achieved before a licence is granted. We had one hundred and forty three casters taking part on this particular day, all wanting to obtain an instructors certificate. ( The instructors certificate is considerably more difficult to obtain than the licence itself ). This is all honorary, and no financial reward etc is attached to the licence, and it is only valid for instruction at a state fisheries exam so nothing can be made from it either in financial terms. The emphasis is on accuracy, and control. Distance casting is not required. In the accuracy test, points are given for casting at various distances to a series of rings the inner ring of which is ten inches in diameter, and progresses out to 120 inches in diameter. The rings are laid out on grass, and carefully measured. The inner ring is ten points, each subsequent ring of greater diameter one point less, and there are five rings. Ten casts are allowed, there is no time limit, or limit on false casts etc. There are no restrictions on rods, lines leader length etc ( some were using four foot leaders !!! ).The minimum requirement to obtain a fishing licence is 30 points. The instructors requirement is 45 points. Of all the gentlemen who cast on this occasion, many of whom had been fishing for a long time, in some cases twenty years and more, and considered themselves good casters, only three, including myself and my wife ( who was the only woman present ), managed to reach or exceed the minimum instructors requirements at first. Many complained that there was a crosswind, and for this reason they were unable to cast. After eleven casters had cast ( including myself and my wife ) the complaints were so loud, that the state judges moved the casting blocks so that the relatively slight wind was from behind the casters. My wife and I and one other caster were asked if we would mind casting again under the better conditions, although we had met the necessary requirements. We agreed to do so. Many people had also in the meantime apparently complained that my wife and I were using "English methods ", which was unfair !!!! And now for the results: In the first round ( with cross wind ) I cast 87 and my wife cast 81 points, the other caster who was asked to cast again cast 57 points. No other caster achieved more than thirty points, some missing the target all together. In the second round, after the blocks were moved, I cast 94 points my wife 87 points, one other gentleman cast 67 points, and only three others reached the minimum 45 points required for an instructors certificate, some in fact not even managing the thirty points required for a normal fishing licence although all those present already posessed one ), and quite a few missing the target altogether. I wish to stress here that this is not a competition, it is a state fisheries law requirement that instructors reach a certain level of expertise, and that would be anglers also reach a minimum of casting skill before being granted a licence. This is of course in addition to the theoretical written exam requirements. The standard of casting was appalling, and many who were certain that they were excellent casters got very pissed off indeed when they saw their actual results. Quite a few of those present came over to talk to myself and my wife after the exam was over, and wanted advice and instruction. Several points arose from this: None of those present had had any decent formal instruction, but had "taught themselves", or "been taught by a friend". Most of the equipment in use was mismatched, and in most cases far too heavy for normal trout fishing, #7 sinking lines and 10 foot rods like broomsticks being fairly common. A few people had fairly decent rods, but the lines were so hopelessly mismatched that it was well nigh impossible to cast with them. Every single one of those present had hopelessly overestimated their abilities, and this was a shock to most of them. We were asked to do a demo for quite a few of the people who stayed around, and strangely enough, although it had just been amply demonstrated to all present that their accuracy and general casting was abysmal, the most asked question was "how can I increase my casting distance". We did a quick survey of those present, ( about forty people ), asking them how far they could cast, and noted the results. These were checked with a tape measure afterwards as each person cast. Every single person present overestimated their distance capabilities sometimes by twenty feet or even in some cases appreciably more. We set up an area and did a few distance casts with gear I had in the car, and then watched as a few very nearly bust their guts trying to reach anything like the distance. Only one of those present was familiar with the double haul, and he was lousy at it. Quite a few others got quite angry, saying I and my wife must be using "tricks" or "special rods " or "lines" or that we were "professionals from England" or something. Over the years in the UK and here I have seen many people casting, and the general standards are awful. It is a very sobering experience for many to try the exercise you mention in your post under controlled conditions. What is even stranger is that even lousy casters are proud of their supposed abilities, and get very upset indeed when shown that it is not as good as they would like to believe. A matter of misplaced pride I believe. The reluctance to take lessons, or be shown anything is also rather remarkable. You are more likely to anger somebody by casting better

Response:

If my fly lands in water I declare it a direct hit. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

If my fly lands in water I declare it a direct hit.

Seems reasonable Tim, better than landing in a tree anyway, but not necessarily better than landing in a bush ! TL MC

Response:

I’m pretty good at stretching my backcast 1/2" too far to catch the tip of the last branch of the last bush on the bank. I’d say that’s pretty accurate…

I hear ya…it takes supreme accuracy and nerves of steel to lose 3 double rigged dropper setups in the exact same branch 3 casts in a row after missing a nice one (fish). — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

If my fly lands in water I declare it a direct hit. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

_______ I was prepared to read something more recondite regarding your casting in the woods.

Response:

My talent precisely. In fact, I also seem to have an uncanny ability for tying superb knots with my airborne leader and fly around the very same branch. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m pretty good at stretching my backcast 1/2" too far to catch the tip of the last branch of the last bush on the bank. I’d say that’s pretty accurate… JonCook. — Fishermen kill fish. This is who we are.

Response:

_______ I was prepared to read something more recondite regarding your casting in the woods.

boy, asadi, you have shit in your hat now. wait ’til george finds out you have posted under his name without proper accreditation! wayno

Response:

Mike, Your post should serve as a wake up call to all of us who still have some freedom in fishing. I am certain if PETA was given a free hand there would be none.

These sort of restrictions -doubtless spawned by humane motivations- would drive me utterly insane. Nothing that Mike Connor has posted on these subjects has done anything than fill me with dread for the future. I have been a Euro-sceptic since the great con of 1974 and that ’scepticism’ has deepened into downright mistrust. I am amazed that such an evidently free spirit as MC can stand it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony, these measures are not European measures, but local German measures. There’s no European legislation on sportsfishing (yet). Cheers, Herman These sort of restrictions -doubtless spawned by humane motivations- would drive me utterly insane. Nothing that Mike Connor has posted on these subjects has done anything than fill me with dread for the future. I have been a Euro-sceptic since the great con of 1974 and that ’scepticism’ has deepened into downright mistrust. I am amazed that such an evidently free spirit as MC can stand it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

<SNIP Tony, as far as I am aware most of these regulations are specific to Germany. No other European country has such regulations "yet". Germany is continually being cited all over Europe as the "enlightened forerunner" with regard to pollution, animal rights, etc etc. Although I do not know all of the different countries regulations of course. I cant stand it ! But I have no choice, I live here ! TL MC

Response:

Big deal. I can tie knots that would make ol’ King Gordius proud around my rod which end up requiring the Alexandrian solution. — Bob Jarvis Mail address hacked to foil spammers! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My talent precisely. In fact, I also seem to have an uncanny ability for tying superb knots with my airborne leader and fly around the very same branch. Bob I’m pretty good at stretching my backcast 1/2" too far to catch the tip of the last branch of the last bush on the bank. I’d say that’s pretty accurate… JonCook. — Fishermen kill fish. This is who we are.

Response:

Well I had to take a second look at my casting when I got and Orvis Trident 6wt. after sending in my PM10 to be repaired (broken tip) They took over a month so they gave me an upgrade in the form of the new Trident. I tried the Trident and decided I liked the PM10 better, it hid my mistakes but when I told the fly shop guy I liked the PM10 better he said most people really don’t know how to cast but if I still wanted a PM10 again I could trade back. I got slightly offended but decided to give it another chance, I looked back through the magazine casting tips and practiced. I am by no means the best and real instruction would help me alot but I can fish trout here in Colo half a day making 10′ – 30′ then fish bass or whatever using heavy patterns at long distances the rest of the day. I find simple mistakes make a difference like for acccuracy having the right foot forward I look at others casting and many have thier feet together or they move thier bodies too much during a short cast, or people making too many false casts when going for distance with too much line out to control. Sometimes when everything is working right I don’t have to think about casting, I just do it and it reminds me of some type of dance or martial arts where everything is smooth and rythmic and as fast or slow short or long as it needs to be. Onew thing I know is if you have to work too hard with the right equiptment you are to blame. If not for the guy at the fly shop I would still be making the same mistakes that my teaching myself to cast has caused. Enjoy… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -nyroc.rr.com… IMHO, the importantance of casting accurately far exceeds the ability to cast distance. Recently I read an article where the author has that same opinion. However, I’d like to share the authors definition of casting accuracy and hear your comments. Here is the section of the article in which the author provides his/her (author is unknown) definition. Also, note the title of the article: "YOU CAN’T CAST! …. between 70 & 80% of fly fishers just can’t cast. Very simply put … putting the fly where it belongs. The question is…"Can you put your fly where you want it 85% of the time?" If you can’t, then you can’t cast! A good test for casting ability is to put a 24" circle at about 30 feet and see how many times you can put the fly in the circle. The 30 foot range is about the average cast you might make when fishing for trout. Even with a breeze, getting the fly in the circle 9 out of 10 casts is possible". Now I’ve participated in several similar exercises at which there were about 20 flyfishers, guides, casting instructors and fly fishing retailers. I will withhold the results of those experiences until after you ROFFians have a chance to express your opinions. I hope you who reply base your opinions on experience rather then wishful thinking or ego. So let’s hear it. Using typical trout equipment for a medium stream, how many can drop a fly within 12 inches of the center of a 24 inch circle while standing about 30′ away, knee deep or deeper in a stream/river in typical trout season weather? Hi Allan, the author is perfectly correct, as indeed you are. Accuracy is of paramount importance. We now regularly hold special casting clinics here at one of my local clubs. The first one we held, some years ago, was a cast-in for the whole area, as further instructors were needed at many clubs in order to comply with the German fishing laws that casting skill of a certain level must be achieved before a licence is granted. We had one hundred and forty three casters taking part on this particular day, all wanting to obtain an instructors certificate. ( The instructors certificate is considerably more difficult to obtain than the licence itself ). This is all honorary, and no financial reward etc is attached to the licence, and it is only valid for instruction at a state fisheries exam so nothing can be made from it either in financial terms. The emphasis is on accuracy, and control. Distance casting is not required. In the accuracy test, points are given for casting at various distances to a series of rings the inner ring of which is ten inches in diameter, and progresses out to 120 inches in diameter. The rings are laid out on grass, and carefully measured. The inner ring is ten points, each subsequent ring of greater diameter one point less, and there are five rings. Ten casts are allowed, there is no time limit, or limit on false casts etc. There are no restrictions on rods, lines leader length etc ( some were using four foot leaders !!! ).The minimum requirement to obtain a fishing licence is 30 points. The instructors requirement is 45 points. Of all the gentlemen who cast on this occasion, many of whom had been fishing for a long time, in some cases twenty years and more, and considered themselves good casters, only three, including myself and my wife ( who was the only woman present ), managed to reach or exceed the minimum instructors requirements at first. Many complained that there was a crosswind, and for this reason they were unable to cast. After eleven casters had cast ( including myself and my wife ) the complaints were so loud, that the state judges moved the casting blocks so that the relatively slight wind was from behind the casters. My wife and I and one other caster were asked if we would mind casting again under the better conditions, although we had met the necessary requirements. We agreed to do so. Many people had also in the meantime apparently complained that my wife and I were using "English methods ", which was unfair !!!! And now for the results: In the first round ( with cross wind ) I cast 87 and my wife cast 81 points, the other caster who was asked to cast again cast 57 points. No other caster achieved more than thirty points, some missing the target all together. In the second round, after the blocks were moved, I cast 94 points my wife 87 points, one other gentleman cast 67 points, and only three others reached the minimum 45 points required for an instructors certificate, some in fact not even managing the thirty points required for a normal fishing licence although all those present already posessed one ), and quite a few missing the target altogether. I wish to stress here that this is not a competition, it is a state fisheries law requirement that instructors reach a certain level of expertise, and that would be anglers also reach a minimum of casting skill before being granted a licence. This is of course in addition to the theoretical written exam requirements. The standard of casting was appalling, and many who were certain that they were excellent casters got very pissed off indeed when they saw their actual results. Quite a few of those present came over to talk to myself and my wife after the exam was over, and wanted advice and instruction. Several points arose from this: None of those present had had any decent formal instruction, but had "taught themselves", or "been taught by a friend". Most of the equipment in use was mismatched, and in most cases far too heavy for normal trout fishing, #7 sinking lines and 10 foot rods like broomsticks being fairly common. A few people had fairly decent rods, but the lines were so hopelessly mismatched that it was well nigh impossible to cast with them. Every single one of those present had hopelessly overestimated their abilities, and this was a shock to most of them. We were asked to do a demo for quite a few of the people who stayed around, and strangely enough, although it had just been amply demonstrated to all present that their accuracy and general casting was abysmal, the most asked question was "how can I increase my casting distance". We did a quick survey of those present, ( about forty people ), asking them how far they could cast, and noted the results. These were checked with a tape measure afterwards as each person cast. Every single person present overestimated their distance capabilities sometimes by twenty feet or even in some cases appreciably more. We set up an area and did a few distance casts with gear I had in the car, and then watched as a few very nearly bust their guts trying to reach anything like the distance. Only one of those present was familiar with the double haul, and he was lousy at it. Quite a few others got quite angry, saying I and my wife must be using "tricks" or "special rods " or "lines" or that we were "professionals from England" or something. Over the years in the UK and here I have seen many people casting, and the general standards are awful. It is a very sobering experience for many to try the exercise you mention in your post under controlled conditions. What is even stranger is that even lousy casters are proud of their supposed abilities, and get very upset indeed when shown that it is not as good as they would like to believe. A matter of misplaced pride I believe. The reluctance to take lessons, or be shown anything is also rather remarkable. You are more likely to anger somebody by casting better and showing them how, than you are to elicit gratitude. Women by the way being generally far easier to teach than men in my experience. ( I taught my wife as well ). I would imagine that the casting abilities of the average fly-angler in the States is not much better than that detailed above either. I would suggest as well that anybody wishing to improve as an angler should practice dropping his fly into a bucket or similar, or even a hula hoop at various measured ranges up to say forty feet. If you can do this consistently then distance will never be a problem for you, and you will certainly catch more fish. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

Hi Mike, Can you please explain the reasoning behind this requirement?! Surely, if one is a crap caster, one merely fails to catch many/any fish?! No one suffers, least of all the fish! It’s not like a driving or a flying licence where the safety of the driver/pilot and others is a stake. There is much that I find daft and barmy about German fishery laws (as you have been kind enough to vouchsafe to us): this, not the least of it. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Hi Tony, One of the reasons for the complex fishery laws is the fact that they are also affected by a number of laws not directly connected with actual fishing. Just to give you an example for instance, nobody in Germany under the age of 16 years may hold a fishing or hunting licence, as it is illegal for a minor to be involved in the killing of a vertebrate animal. This means minors may not go fishing at all except when accompanied by a licence holding adult, and they are still not allowed to catch and dispatch fish. Rights of access are complicated, Animal rights issues, environment conservation, fish recognition, habitat knowledge, ethics and the law, rights of acquisition, size limits, closed seasons, sanctuary rules, how to kill a vertebrate animal humanely, and a host of other subjects are covered in the theoretical instruction prior to the angling examination. At the moment a minimum of thirty six hours theoretical instruction is mandatory, and one must of course pass the written test at the end of this. The instruction includes fishery laws, environmental laws, animal rights laws, and a great deal of other stuff. Assuming you do your homework well, and get all the necessary info and literature together, it is possible to manage this in the minimum allotted time, but only just barely. For most people they must reckon with three to six months hard slog before they can take the test. The mandatory instruction is usually carried out on the premises of a local school etc, on the basis of four or five hours, a couple of evenings a week for six weeks or so. Casting and other tuition is extra, depending on the licence one wishes to obtain. A "normal" fishing licence for general bait fishing requires that you pass several tests and the written exam. If you wish to go "spinfishing", extra tests and stricter rules are applied. If you want to go fly-fishing, you must first have passed all the other tests, and may then take the fly-fishing test. Upon passing the tests you have chosen, either one, two or all, you then receive a "Sportfisherpass" as proof that you passed the tests. This must be carried at all times along with the state fishing licence you may then apply for, as well as identification in the form of passport or ID card. The whole thing is very cheap, and theoretically you could pass the exam for as little as thirty marks ( about ten quid )you must then obtain a licence on the strength of this. These vary from state to state at the moment, as specific fishery laws lie in the hands of federal state government. The licence itself costs about ten quid, and in some states you must pay this every year or at regular intervals. Other country-wide laws override some state laws, but not in all states, and some states laws are different to others. As it happens my licence is valid for life. No clubs will admit anglers to their ranks without a licence, and a "sportfischerpass" which you receive when you pass the exam, detailing the disciplines you have successfully passed . You are only allowed to do the type of fishing for which you have a valid "sportfischerpass" this includes angling in coastal waters by the way, A sportfischerpass and licence is mandatory everywhere in Germany for residents, even on put and take ponds. Non residents, i.e. Tourists may obtain temporary licences, if they produce proof that they hold or held a licence elsewhere,but they are unlikely to be able to do much fishing as for nearly all clubs now the "sportfischerpass" is mandatory. Some clubs may make exceptions and allow "guests" who are accompanied by a member. This may be in the form of a restricted "day ticket" type of thing, or in some clubs it is free, but whatever the guest catches is subtracted from the members quota. In one of my clubs the yearly quota for a member is a maximum forty fish per year. These may be Salmon Trout Grayling or Seatrout, or any combination of these fish, a maximum of four fish per day is allowed. Takeable fish must be immediately humanely killed and taken. The fishing day must be entered into the "catch book" which is also a mandatory requirement of most clubs, before fishing commences, and this must be carried at all times with the other documents listed above, and with a current copy of the fishery rules, fish taken must also be immediately entered into this book. Possession of fish not entered is proof of "poaching", and will inevitably result in expulsion from the club, being charged in court, and automatic loss of fishing licence for life. It is considered very bad form to fish yourself when you have a guest, but it is not forbidden. Most other transgressions etc carry heavy punishments, and there are plenty of AR nuts there to make sure every angler who transgresses is dragged into court. The reasons usually given for all this are also complex. But I will give it a try ! First it must be ensured that every angler is a responsible person, and has sufficient knowledge to carry out his pastime without breaking any laws or injuring anybody else. In Germany if you damage another person or his property either wilfully or otherwise, you are personally responsible, no matter how the damage came about. Most sensible anglers in Germany are insured against this, many through their clubs, which obtain special rates, though at the moment it is not mandatory. A certain level of casting expertise, and knowledge of relevant laws supposedly lowers the likelihood of anybody being injured or wrongfully molested. All waters in Germany are divided into contiguous "sections", irrespective of who owns them. Most still waters are considered single "sections", and there are private "put and take" ponds which are the exclusive property of their owners to do with as they see fit. These sections are leased by the state fishery boards to clubs for a minimum of twelve years, the club being chosen which is in the greater public interest for that area, and local clubs being given first bite at the cherry. The board of owners, ( if several owners own that section), or even the single owner has a very restricted influence on who gets the lease, and also a restricted right to vote on prices etc. All clubs must be open to anybody who has a licence, or their chances of getting any water are zero. No fishing rights are owned by private individuals. ( Except the put and takes already mentioned ). Some clubs regulate their membership by keeping the prices up, as the club subscriptions are set by the club committee and by general and open vote at the AGM of the club. Clubs may also set any restrictions they like over and above the normal fishery laws, but they may not set any lawful restrictions aside. One of my clubs for instance is fly only on the two rivers we lease, barbless hooks are mandatory, hook size is restricted, multiple hooks are forbidden, one fly only may be used at any one time, no other type of fishing is allowed. Catch and release is generally illegal. Put and take as it is generally understood elsewhere is also basically illegal but is tolerated to some extent, ( the letter of the law states that it is illegal to release a fish purely for the purpose of catching it, this is cruel and unnecessary ), is however under increasing pressure from AR organisations and the "greens" who favour the AR groups. Clubs must have a certain structure consisting of trained and examined personnel, before they can operate or obtain water. This usually means a fisheries officer per/ certain number of members, a bailiff / per certain number of members, an environmental officer, trained and examined fisheries personnel who may then be licensed to use fisheries equipment, such as electro-equipment, a training officer, a chairman, a treasurer, and all the other usual officers found on a committee. The clubs may ask for assistance from the local state fisheries board in some cases, but are basically responsible for stocking maintaining and supervising the water themselves. Special licences are required in order to carry out certain operations, for instance re-introducing reared fingerling sea-trout, catching and stripping mature sea-trout for the purposes of breeding, and various other operations. All posts in the club are voluntary, and the incumbents are voted in or out at the AGM

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Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » Wading in Misery

Wading in Misery

Question:

You guys (meant respectfully, plurally, and either gender) were great when I asked about your candidates for the best vise going. Now, if you will take me out of my misery again, this time… please … Which wader. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather? I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot. And, thinking of another recent thread, does anyone selling Simms blink on the price. Larry R (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to have recognizable brands.)

Response:

I too am an Oregonian and began using Neoprenes with the old James Scott unlined ones….great smell to them after a couple of outings, sort of like the Chicago stockyards on a hot August day. With the advent of breathables I’d never wear another Neoprene wader, winter or summer…breathables all the way, in the summer a pair of light weight capilene long johns to keep the moisture off the skin and prevent a case of rosy red ass from cropping up on the 3d or 4th day of a trip. When it is really cold (like the Sandy in January, Idaho in October ) Patagonia Expedition weight long johns or lt. long johns under a lt. wt capilene pant is the ticket for me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys (meant respectfully, plurally, and either gender) were great when I asked about your candidates for the best vise going. Now, if you will take me out of my misery again, this time… please … Which wader. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather? I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot. And, thinking of another recent thread, does anyone selling Simms blink on the price. Larry R (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to have recognizable brands.)

– Mike in PDX "When the trout are lost, smash the state." Tom McGuane

Response:

Which wader.

I haven’t tried the breathables yet, I think the jury is still out on those, some seem to like them some don’t. Last year I decided that my old Hodgeman neo’s had shrunk enough (:-)) and that I needed a larger size. I had a LL Bean gift certificate that was a Christmas present so I went down to Freeport and got fitted for a nice pair of waders. Compared to my old Hodgeman’s these things are fantastic. Guess I’m a neoprene guy, but then I float tube in some pretty darn cold water and I can’t imagine using a pair of breathables for that purpose. Under the neo’s I wear a pair of polypro johhnies that I got on sale at the Fly shop in Greenville Maine…this has turned out to be the best setup I’ve had yet. Flyfish

Response:

Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather…

I tested the Simms Goretex on 2 trips to Alaska this year. When wading in knee-deep darn-cold water, and while hiking, they were far better than neoprene. When in waist-deep darn-cold water, even with 300 polartec pants and wool socks, I started to chill quickly. When sitting in a semi-cold wet raft, those portions of the waders that were in contact with the raft or other objects lost their functionality, and it seemed like wet-spots were forming on the inside of the waders and there was zero heat retention. During one day of rafting I was on the verge of hypothermia in the Simms Goretex whereas I’m 100% sure I would have been warm in neoprene. My overall take is this. All breathable waders are good *if and only if* they get a change to breath and vent off any moisture buildup which would otherwise wick warmth away from the body. Time-extended or deep wading, or sitting or leaning on surfaces causes moisture buildup followed by rapid heat loss. Neoprene on the other hand might get damp inside from sweat, but its a "warm damp". As I resume winter steelheading, I’ll be back in the neoprene. Thomas Gilg

Response:

I have the 3.5 mil neoprene waders, and find them to be uncomfortably warm most of the time in Oregon. If I was getting out often enough to justify the price, I’d get a set of lightweight breathable ones and a pair of fleece pants to wear underneath in colder conditions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather?

Response:

When Neoprenes are too hot, why not wade wet? Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the 3.5 mil neoprene waders, and find them to be uncomfortably warm most of the time in Oregon. If I was getting out often enough to justify the price, I’d get a set of lightweight breathable ones and a pair of fleece pants to wear underneath in colder conditions. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather?

Response:

I used to wade wet in the summer, but the snow melt in the Sierras can be very cold, so I started using lightweight stocking foot hip waders and never get too warm or too cold. Ernie Harrison See Ernie’s Fly-Fishing Stuff: http://home.pacbell.net/ernie2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -When Neoprenes are too hot, why not wade wet? Willi I have the 3.5 mil neoprene waders, and find them to be uncomfortably warm most of the time in Oregon. If I was getting out often enough to justify the price, I’d get a set of lightweight breathable ones and a pair of fleece pants to wear underneath in colder conditions.

Response:

re breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc.

I believe the breathables are as good or better than neoprenes in the winter provided the appropiate undergarments are worn. I usually wear a pair of long underwear and depending upon the weather and mood, flannel lined jeans or fleece pants and good socks (wool usually). Are breathables okay in very warm weather?

Yes as long as your in the water. They may breathe but on a hot day, waders are still waders when walking back out. I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot.

I swear by Simms. and as far as I’m concerned, comparing them to other *cheaper* breathable waders I’ve seen, there is no comparison. But there are other good brands coming out or are out (Patagonia, LL Bean, Ronny, etc). I think you first need to decide Gore Tex or not. Simms is gore tex, Orvis is not. Not saying that one is better than the other, but the gore tex stuff often carries a premium. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of wind knots and tailing loops.

Response:

I wear my breathables only in the summer and ony for wading. Not for belly boating. I ran into a pair of old guys (70s) who were wearing breathables with long johns and several other layers in the dead of winter. I were 3mm in the early fall and 5 mm in the winter and in the spring belly boating with more or less layers underneath. Breathables are much more comfortable and I’d wear them all the time if I didn’t suffer urinary types of distress when I cold soak my ah…crotch. I’ve got the LL Bean bullet proof breathables with Kevlar since I do lots of bushwhacking through stuff that rips up normal breathables or neoprenes. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys (meant respectfully, plurally, and either gender) were great when I asked about your candidates for the best vise going. Now, if you will take me out of my misery again, this time… please … Which wader. Are breathables as good as neoprene in cold weather, if you wear longjohns (or whatever) under them? In very cold weather? I fish Oregon rivers and will be going to Wyoming at the end of October. Yellowstone, etc. Are breathables okay in very warm weather? I know from previous posts that many of you swear by Orvis, while others — at least one among you — swore by Simms. I lean toward Simms but wonder if they are worth the money. There is quite a price spread. I’m inclined to spring for the difference if justified because my nylons are beginning to look they came out of a glue pot. And, thinking of another recent thread, does anyone selling Simms blink on the price. Larry R (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to have recognizable brands.)

Response:

<tale of woe snipped Sounds like a case of bad layering techniques. Try wearing something that will keep you dry and allow the moisture to escape. Wearing materials that absorb and keep water is not something one would consider appropriate for wearing under breathables. I have found wearing fleece to be most comfortable. I know the winters here in Montana don’t get as cold as Alaska, but it does get colder than a witches tit in a brass bra here. On extremely cold days I still slip into my neoprenes, but for the most part I wear my breathables and just layer myself underneath. With proper layering you will stay warm and dry and not have any sad tales to tell. Here is an example of what I wear: 2 sets of long johns 1 set of fleece bibs 1 pair of sweats pants 2 pair of heavy wool socks 1 sweatshirt 1 fleece jacket 1 Gore-Tex jacket to stop wind / keep dry With this setup I am comfortable on those really cold days. Other times I don’t need as much and find myself shedding an upper layer or two. The key is wearing materials that don’t absorb and hold water close to the skin. Hope this helps. Stay warm. Warren

Response:

Agree with most of your post except the part about sweat pants and sweatshirt. Most of these are made of cotton and cotton loses its ability to insulate after it gets wet. So if the moisture is wicked by the fleece layer to the cotton, you have a soggy layer that’s providing no heat retention. Wool, however, does retain its insulating properties when wet but gets soggy nonetheless. Polypropylene fleece is the best all around in my opinion for wicking and maintaining its insulating properties. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <tale of woe snipped Sounds like a case of bad layering techniques. Try wearing something that will keep you dry and allow the moisture to escape. Wearing materials that absorb and keep water is not something one would consider appropriate for wearing under breathables. I have found wearing fleece to be most comfortable. I know the winters here in Montana don’t get as cold as Alaska, but it does get colder than a witches tit in a brass bra here. On extremely cold days I still slip into my neoprenes, but for the most part I wear my breathables and just layer myself underneath. With proper layering you will stay warm and dry and not have any sad tales to tell. Here is an example of what I wear: 2 sets of long johns 1 set of fleece bibs 1 pair of sweats pants 2 pair of heavy wool socks 1 sweatshirt 1 fleece jacket 1 Gore-Tex jacket to stop wind / keep dry With this setup I am comfortable on those really cold days. Other times I don’t need as much and find myself shedding an upper layer or two. The key is wearing materials that don’t absorb and hold water close to the skin. Hope this helps. Stay warm. Warren

Response:

Two sets of long johns, fleece bibs, and a pair of sweat pants? Judas, man, how the hell do you walk with all that around your gams? Must be hell when you gotta pee.

Actually it isn’t. The bibs have a zipper at the bottom of the fly as well as the top. The long johns are the old fashioned "union suits" that have buttons all down the front and a trap door in the rear. The sweats are elastic at the waist. I leave the long johns unbuttoned at the last button so it is easily accessable. Walking isn’t a problem because I buy my waders a little large so it all fits. It is really only slightly more bulky than neoprenes. Warren

Response:

Two sets of long johns, fleece bibs, and a pair of sweat pants? Judas, man, how the hell do you walk with all that around your gams? Must be hell when you gotta pee. -wf – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <tale of woe snipped Sounds like a case of bad layering techniques. Try wearing something that will keep you dry and allow the moisture to escape. Wearing materials that absorb and keep water is not something one would consider appropriate for wearing under breathables. I have found wearing fleece to be most comfortable. I know the winters here in Montana don’t get as cold as Alaska, but it does get colder than a witches tit in a brass bra here. On extremely cold days I still slip into my neoprenes, but for the most part I wear my breathables and just layer myself underneath. With proper layering you will stay warm and dry and not have any sad tales to tell. Here is an example of what I wear: 2 sets of long johns 1 set of fleece bibs 1 pair of sweats pants 2 pair of heavy wool socks 1 sweatshirt 1 fleece jacket 1 Gore-Tex jacket to stop wind / keep dry With this setup I am comfortable on those really cold days. Other times I don’t need as much and find myself shedding an upper layer or two. The key is wearing materials that don’t absorb and hold water close to the skin. Hope this helps. Stay warm. Warren

Response:

When Neoprenes are too hot, why not wade wet? Willi

Because the air temp may be warm, but the water cold as hell after the snow melts. Warren

Response:

0] : … : (About the thread on vises: I wanted to check out the Darnica, or : Danica, but couldn’t find it anywhere. Someone said Orvis sells it under : a different name, but I couldn’t tell because their vises all seem to : have recognizable brands.) See Al Beatty’s web page http://www.btsflyfishing.com He sells the Danica vise and is a real straight shooter. You won’t go wrong dealing with him. Mike — Michael McGuire Hewlett Packard Laboratories (remove x’s from email if not Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971 a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491

Response:

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Category: Fly Fishing
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Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing Rod » Ski Belt Life Preservers – Need Source

Ski Belt Life Preservers – Need Source

Question:

: Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in : California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states. I would have to disagree with you on this one, Pat. If you could point me at some written source of this, I would greatly appreciate it, because it certainly is too bizarre to be true. I could believe that it is illegal to water ski without an approved life jacket being worn. But it CANT be illegal to simply wear a PDF that is not approved while boating. First off, what is the definition of a PFD? ( I know, it is a personal floatation device). My bathing suit is not an approved PDF, does that make it illegal to wear? OK, that was a smart ass answer. How about a wet suit? It floats, but is not approved. Am I breaking your law by wearing my wetsuit while sitting in the ski boat? How about my SOS suspenders? Do I really break a law when I put these on? Does your law really prefer me to wear nothing at all over a non approved floatation device? I don’t think so. There are situations that may require a life jacket to be worn. Water skiing may be one of them, but I am not sure. But there is no requirement for an adult to wear a life jacket in a boat. There has to be an approved life jacket for him, it doesn’t need to be worn. And putting on a wet suit, or an inflatable device, or even a ski belt shouldn’t be any legal problem. You might be confusing a rule that was enacted rather recently. I forget the actual wording, but I believe that it required *children* under a certain age (I think it was 12) to wear an approved life jacket whenever the boat was underway *unless* any of a whole bunch of exceptions. The exceptions included being in an enclosed cabin or being tethered. Rod McInnis

Response:

i live on a lake and use skibelts for just swimming around. i don’t, and don’t allow visitors to swim unless they wear some type of floatation. since we don’t jump or play any water sports here, the skibelts are nice to just float in the water off of the dock. i really dislike having vests riding up under my armpits. so i like to keep skibelts around. but i’m having difficult times finding them too and i suspect soon i won’t be able to find any. last i looked, E&B Marine still carried some inexpensive ones.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any

non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other

states. You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as

dangerous as this one. You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on

an unconsciencious or disoriented person. I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one

nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat. My comments to the original poster was about these ski

belts only, no other device was mentioned.

<snippers Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything" PH

I’m afraid that I still have to stand by my original statement regarding the legality/illegality of wearing non-USCG approved PFD’s, including ski belts. There are two "sets" of law in California which deal with the wearing of life jackets: the first is the Charter Boat Safety Act, which empowers (and requires) the Captain of commercial vessels to order passengers into life jackets under particular conditions; the second, which is the one with which we are concerned at the moment, is the Harbours and Navigation Code, Section 658.3: "658.3. (a) No person shall operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel that is 26 feet or less in length unless every person on board who is six years of age or less is wearing a type I, II, or III Coast Guard-approved personal flotation device while that motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is underway. (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a sailboat on which a person who is six years of age or less is restrained by a harness tethered to the vessel, or to a person operating a vessel on which a person who is six years of age or less is in an enclosed cabin. (c) Subdivision (a) does not apply to a person operating a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel if the operator is reacting to an emergency rescue situation. (d) The following definitions govern the construction of this section: (1) "Enclosed cabin" means a space on board a vessel that is surrounded by bulkheads and covered by a roof. (2) "Operate a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel" means to be in control or in charge of a motorboat, sailboat, or vessel while it is underway. (3) "Underway" means all times except when the motorboat, sailboat, or vessel is anchored, moored, or aground. (e) A violation of this section is an infraction punishable as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 668." Nothing in this section can be construed as to forbid the wearing of non-approved floatation devices, as requiring a person to wear an approved device is not the same as forbidding the wearing of an unapproved one, nor is the wearing of PFD’s by anyone over the age of six addressed in any way. An exhaustive search of all current California State Law failed to turn up any other section which would forbid persons aged 21 or under from wearing non-approved PFD’s. So while these ski belts may, indeed, be dangerous in some situations, it is not illegal for anyone to wear them. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

:Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG :approved PFD here in :California while boating or watersking Must be some interesting wording to that legislation. Lets see, my wetsuit offers a little boyancy, is it illegal to wear because its not an approved PFD? I guess its illegal to wear something which isn’t a PFD but *sombody* might think *is* a PFD? — george

Response:

:To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a :great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or :not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose :society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all :risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to :which all people are entitled. you know I agree completely, and I’ve said as much on many ocasions. I dont know what came over me to propose such a thing.. — george

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snippers : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming. I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion. George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating. I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc. Rod McInnis

But my comment was not directed at the wisdom of wearing PFD’s during any particular activity, rather whether or not such wearing of PFD’s should be a matter of legislation. Is it smart to wear a PFD anytime you go into the water? Of course – you never knows when you might slip and fall, particularly when dealing with slippery wet rocks such as one finds in trout streams. Does this then mean that you should be *forced at gunpoint* (for such is the actual implication of such legisation) to wear a PFD during this activity? The risk of drowning is every bit as real as it is during boating, and possibly even greater than the risk of drowning while waterskiing, since while waterskiing rescue is readily available and one actually expects to fall down from time to time. To live is to risk harm – some people enjoy taking risks and derive a great deal of pleasure from putting themselves into harms way. Whether or not I agree with the wisdom of such risk-taking is irrelevant – to impose society’s will upon them and declare that they have a duty to avoid all risk is highly immoral and violates the right of self-determination to which all people are entitled. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

Actually it IS illegal for person under 21 years of age to wear any non-USCG approved PFD here in California while boating or watersking, and is likely to be in other states. You know, Rev. its not a good idea to split hairs on safety devices, particularily one as dangerous as this one. You see these belts hold a person face down it the water making them useless on an unconsciencious or disoriented person. I could not recommend to anyone where to buy one nor allow anyone to wear one on my boat. My comments to the original poster was about these ski belts only, no other device was mentioned. We know that USCG until recently had not approved the automatic inflatable type one life vest, but that was due to an argument over how to inspect them for functionality. These vests are arguably the safest available because they are relatively comfortable and provide the most bouyancy of any vest sold in most stores. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Pat Registered Nurse former Aviation Life Support Equipment maintainance supervisor U.S. Army Reserve — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything" PH

Response:

I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended. For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing? If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded.

As best as I can find it is legislated at the state level. In NC you must wear a CG approved flotation device while skiing, etc only if there is not a designated spotter other than the boat driver. If you’ve got a spotter then nothing or a belt is ok. I have both and many of the adults prefer the belt but I tell the kids they have to wear the jacket. As to a source, the discount catalogs have them. Around here Walmart has them and Boaters Discount World, a boat store chain also have them. They’re $7-$9. Lawrence…….

Response:

| I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion. George’s statement was in | regards to water skiing, not boating. I might extend the thinking to | any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped | violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, | etc. … or riding in a boat. You never know what you’ll run into, or what will run into you. Many folks where seatbelts in their car, for the same reason. — Bob Wood ascom Nexion phone: 508-266-2350

Response:

: : :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : :most states. The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : :should never be used on a human. : : we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, : which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, : but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. : I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t : be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably : by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills : and slipping right out of the belts. : : : — : george : : : If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should : be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, : fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming. I wouldn’t follow it to that conclusion. George’s statement was in regards to water skiing, not boating. I might extend the thinking to any boating type activity where the person can expect to get dumped violently into the water, such as skiing, wind surfing, riding a PWC, etc. Rod McInnis

Response:

: Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life : preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" : : Don Land Why on Earth do you want one? I always enjoyed giving the girls the ski belt because of the increased likelyhood that they would lose their bathing suit top. :-) But they are just not a good idea. I doubt that they would be Coast Guard approved as a life jacket, since they have no tendency to right an unconccious wearer. In fact, I remember taking a fall wearing one of those and having it slip down to my knees! Definately not a perferred position! Rod McInnis

Response:

They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in most states. The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and should never be used on a human. Pat — "Reality is meaningless, perception is everything" PH

Sorry, but there is a misperception here – a very common one, I’m afraid. Whether or not a device is "Coast Guard Approved" has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can us it as a *recreational* boater. However in order for a personal flotation device to "count" towards fullfilling the number of PFD’s which must be carried on any particular boat, that PFD must be Coast Guard Approved, in good condition, and of the proper size for its intended wearer. It is *not* illegal to carry non-approved pfd’s on your boat, nor is it illegal for you to *wear* them. If I have two adults on my boat, I must carry two adult size Coast Guard Approved PFD’s (type I, II, or III), plus one type IV. Whatever *else* I carry, whether Coast Guard Approved or not, is entirely up to my discretion. My husband and I both have SOSpenders which are our primary personal flotation devices. While our SOSpenders are superiour to other PFD’s in every respect, they do not count toward fulfilling our requirement. Therefore we have two adult type I PFD’s to cover our personal requirement, four adult type III’s, two small type I’s, and several type IV’s, which brings us up to and beyond the requirements for our boat as we will not sail with an out-of-balance PFD-to-person ratio.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states. The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george

If one follows this argument to its logical conclusion, then PFD’s should be required by law for *all* water activities, including surfing, fly-fishing, hot-tubbing and even swimming. Don’t get me wrong – I think that life vests are extremely useful items and I wouldn’t dream of going sailing without them. But this nanny-state attitude has *really* got to stop. I do not defer responsibility for my own life to the State, nor will I allow that responsibility to be taken from me by force by meddling do-gooders. Rev. Karin Conover-Lewis

Response:

:They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in :most states. The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and :should never be used on a human. we used one back in the 70’s. At that time they were not CG approved, which meant they didn’t count in your PFD tally on the boat, but there was no requirment that a skier wear an approved PFD. I’ve never heard of a change in that situation, but I wouldn’t be suprised if there now is a PFD requirement for skiers (possably by the states) . Obviously there should be..I remember taking spills and slipping right out of the belts. — george

Response:

: They are no longer US Coast Guard approved which makes them illegal in : most states. The reason is that they are exceptionally dangerous and : should never be used on a human. : Pat Are you sure that they are "illegal"? I am pretty sure that they no longer qualify as a type three life saving device. But that doesn’t make them illegal, they just don’t count. I have been trying to find a source for these types of laws, because I have several questions regarding what is "legal" and what is just strongly recommended. For example, does the law really say that a life jacket MUST he *worn* while skiing? If so, I would sure like to see how that is worded. Barefoot water skiiers tend to *not* wear the Coast Guard approved life jackets. Instead, a wet suit is worn (even in warm water). The reason is simple, taking a fall barefooting will rip most jackets right off your body. And I can tell you that it doesn’t feel too good to have a life jacket ripped off. If you wear a wet suit, and keep your body lines smooth, you will skim across the surface of the water. The special "barefoot" suits have extra padding on the seat (what you try to fall on) and chest (which is what hits when you "trip"). They provide plenty of floatation, but are not an approved life jacket. Another place where life jackets are rarely worn are trick skiers. The jacket impedes thier motion, and the competition seems to be as much on swim suit fashion as anything else. Rod McInnis

Response:

Does anyone know of a source for used (or new) ski belt life preservers?…I’ve heard that they are no longer "legal?" Don Land

Response:

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Category: Fly Fishing Rod
Tags: Fly Fishing Rod

Fly Fishing Fisherman Wiki » Fly Fishing » Fly Fishing – British Columbia

Fly Fishing – British Columbia

Question:

[ Article crossposted from rec.outdoors.fishing ] [ Author was David Neils ] Last July, my wife and I spent a fabulous week at a wilderness outpost cabin in the heart of British Columbia. Our hosts were Rhonda and Duncan Stewart of Stewart’s Lodge and Camps. This is a fantastic lodge with access to over 20 lakes and streams from the main lodge on Nimpo Lake. They also have several wilderness outpost locations. We chose the wilderness outpost location for our honeymoon. Everything was perfect. The rainbows averaged 1-3 pounds and were anxious to devour several well-known flies. We had the entire lake to ourselves for 4 days. There were no trails or roads into this place. The Stewart’s have erected a wonderful cabin that is more than comfortable. We enjoyed hiking, canoeing, backpacking, and lots of fishing. I’d like to go back and catch the huge rainbows in the river locations. Stewart’s lodge is located near Tweedsmuir Provincial Park. This is a beautiful park with plenty of great hiking opportunities. It reminded me of Glacier Park with one exception…no people. You virtually have most areas to yourself. Stewart’s Lodge and Camps is a great place for fisherman and non-fisherman alike. I know that we will go back soon. I’ll be happy to answer any questions about our experience. You can also find out more information at their WWW site: http://www.on-the-fly.com Sincerely, David Neils 3919 Benthaven Drive Fort Collins, Colorado 80526 — Software Usability Engineer – HP SESD HP E-Mail Mentor Program – Administrator – http://mentor.external.hp.com 3404 East Harmony Rd., Fort Collins, CO 80525 voice: 970-229-4742 fax: 970-229-7734

Response:

: Last July, my wife and I spent a fabulous week at a wilderness : outpost cabin in the heart of British Columbia. Our hosts were : Rhonda and Duncan Stewart of Stewart’s Lodge and Camps. This is …stuff deleted You can also call Rhonda or Duncan for a full color brochure/newsletter. This is great reading. Call 1-800-ON-THE-FLY Tell them I sent you. — Software Usability Engineer – HP SESD HP E-Mail Mentor Program – Administrator – http://mentor.external.hp.com 3404 East Harmony Rd., Fort Collins, CO 80525 voice: 970-229-4742 fax: 970-229-7734

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