Question:

Have the white flies started to hatch on the upper Potomac yet?

Response:

Yes.  Best time is after seven p.m.  I’ve been using a "green weenie" pattern, but using white chenille vice chartreuse. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Yes.  Best time is after seven p.m.  I’ve been using a "green weenie" pattern, but using white chenille vice chartreuse. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Frank, it strikes me that Doc Saylor might be somebody you ought to hook up with (no pun intended) Given your propensity to do face plants and other wild gyrations while fishing, you need to make him your fishin’ buddy. Just tryin’ to keep you alive and his business flourishing. Frank Sr. who is due for two more cortisone shots in the heels. YIKES!!!

Response:

Frank, it strikes me that Doc Saylor might be somebody you ought to hook up with (no pun intended) Given your propensity to do face plants and other wild gyrations while fishing, you need to make him your fishin’ buddy. Just tryin’ to keep you alive and his business flourishing. Frank Sr. who is due for two more cortisone shots in the heels. YIKES!!!

Actually, looking for the Air Force Pararescue type. Need someone who can scale a cliff or a fish, shoot an attacking grizzly or a class V rapid to drag my ass out, repair a float tube or repair to the extraction point.  Must be qualified in white water, avalanche, and deep submersible rescue.  Should be world renown fly tyer and brewer. Now thats a fishing buddy.                  Frank (Just had cortisone next to my spine)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank, it strikes me that Doc Saylor might be somebody you ought to hook up with (no pun intended) Given your propensity to do face plants and other wild gyrations while fishing, you need to make him your fishin’ buddy. Just tryin’ to keep you alive and his business flourishing. Frank Sr. who is due for two more cortisone shots in the heels. YIKES!!! Actually, looking for the Air Force Pararescue type. Need someone who can scale a cliff or a fish, shoot an attacking grizzly or a class V rapid to drag my ass out, repair a float tube or repair to the extraction point.  Must be qualified in white water, avalanche, and deep submersible rescue.  Should be world renown fly tyer and brewer. Now thats a fishing buddy.

You need a dog. — TL, Tim (well, not for the fly tying and brewing but, hey, nobody’s perfect.)

Response:

You need a dog. — TL, Tim

Well, I have a dog.  I shall refer to him as "blond dog."  He is a master brewer, as a matter of fact, his output rivals Budweiser in quantity and quality.  He is afraid of bugs, terrified of the treadmill (well, thats not a bad thing), feet moving under a blanket on the bed will send him into a barking fit for two hours, often forgets to put his feet back down when jumping off of a step, gets beaten up by the cat, has more psychosis than ROFF (you must pretend that you are trying to eat his food or he will go 4-5 days without eating), his daddy was a long-haired miniture dachshund and mommy was a maltese.  So he is either a dachtese or a malhund.  I don’t need another. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Well, I was in the Navy so I could probably call in an aircraft carrier to save you on occasion.  I’m also due to brew my sixth batch of pale ale or porter soon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need a dog. — TL, Tim Well, I have a dog.  I shall refer to him as "blond dog."  He is a master brewer, as a matter of fact, his output rivals Budweiser in quantity and quality.  He is afraid of bugs, terrified of the treadmill (well, thats not a bad thing), feet moving under a blanket on the bed will send him into a barking fit for two hours, often forgets to put his feet back down when jumping off of a step, gets beaten up by the cat, has more psychosis than ROFF (you must pretend that you are trying to eat his food or he will go 4-5 days without eating), his daddy was a long-haired miniture dachshund and mommy was a maltese.  So he is either a dachtese or a malhund.  I don’t need another. — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

Okay, think we gotta hook up.  I do know of a couple of good spots within ten miles of Harpers Ferry.  My daughter is coming back this weekend after a month away so will stay home, but mayhaps next?  I’ll even leave off the squiddly jokes. — Frank Reid (USAF Retired) Reverse email to reply.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You need a dog. — TL, Tim Well, I have a dog.  I shall refer to him as "blond dog."  He is a master brewer, as a matter of fact, his output rivals Budweiser in quantity and quality.  He is afraid of bugs, terrified of the treadmill (well, thats not a bad thing), feet moving under a blanket on the bed will send him into a barking fit for two hours, often forgets to put his feet back down when jumping off of a step, gets beaten up by the cat, has more psychosis than ROFF (you must pretend that you are trying to eat his food or he will go 4-5 days without eating), his daddy was a long-haired miniture dachshund and mommy was a maltese.  So he is either a dachtese or a malhund.  I don’t need another.

Thanks.  Best laugh I’ve had in a week.  Nice to know someone has at least one pet crazier than most I’ve had. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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Question:

In some sense the problem of new dams is mostly past.  I think there is no "good" place left in the US to build a really large dam (with the possible exception of the Grand Canyon).  The last big dam built (Teton Dam) collapsed 25 years ago.  It was the almost inevitable result of continuing to build after the last technically "good" location was used. I think building of medium sized dams pretty much stopped soon thereafter.  It is harder to tell because smaller dams are less newsworthy.  Generally, it is no longer economically justified to build most dams.  Partially this is because of the elimination of cheap real estate.  Just as with large dams, the "good" locations were already used.  A significant increase in environmental concerns raises the associated costs.  There is also a realization that many older dams are technically weak, so new dams now require a much more conservative (that is expensive) design.  The result is that new dams are not being built and a few old dams are even being removed for economic reasons. I think the conclusion is that new dams are pretty much a non-issue.  Of course there are still a lot of old dams around with no viable justification for their existence.      Larry

Response:

What do you all think? I think there would be little runnable water in the east without dam releases! – Mothra

As you know, the Cheat has no dams in its watershed yet still offers a very long season. Its tributaries are free flowing and a hoot to paddle when the Cheat Canyon gets too high. Without dams in the East paddling would be…different. More seasonal. Less crowded. Still fun. But I’ll admit, I’d hate to do ALL my Upper Yough paddling in February Jordan

Response:

That’s the best response I’ve heard yet. At least the one I liked best.  I wish more people were able to look at things as objectively. There is nothing wrong with being against something as long as you have good reason to feel the way you do. And it’s always better to temper your position with an understanding of the other side of an issue.

You did not originally ask for a balanced judgement on whether dams are beneficial or detrimental to the world and to society at large: You asked why boaters don’t like them. — JML

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

Have a look at what has been done in Austria or the French Alps… Many rivers have been dammed, often burying great stretches of white water, creating environmental nightmares in the places that were swamped (think Brazil). The parts that are left unburied are either degraded to concrete channels in which the water is urged downstream as quickly as possible, to prevent flooding problems, or have become completey dry, as the water is led around the steepest (and therefore often the best) stretches of original riverbed. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity.

Actually, you just gave off yet another problem: by using that water for agricultural use, drinking water or letting it evaporate, you lose a lot of what before the damming went down to fill the riverbed downstream. So even more of the river gets hit! Wilko PS: Mind you, I agree that there are some benefits as well, like "clean" electricity, controlling floods that threaten people and such… For Austria for example it’s one of the few dependable export products they have (AFAIK They have no large ore or mineral deposits). PPS: No Scott, don’t even try, I won’t waste the energy to reply to you. — Wilko van den Bergh                       quibus(at)europe(dot)com     Eindhoven           The Netherlands            Europe                       "Look Mum: No sense!"  

Response:

In other cases, dams are objectionable because they have flooded incredibly beautiful valleys.  Hetch Hetchy and Glen Canyon are prime examples.  I seriously doubt that these would be built today.

And don’t forget the New Melones Dam that drowned out a fantastic class III run of the Stanislaus River.  I never got to see it because I started paddling the first year it was no longer (and had moved the the east coast, the year the drought brought it back).  That stretch was a big loss to river runners.  Sure, the South Fork of the American is nice, but it’s great to have some choices. Lori

Response:

2.   OK,  now let’s look at dams from purely a whitewater paddling perspective.   Yes,  some dams actually improve our whitewater resources. The Grand Canyon is the obvious biggie.

I would disagree with this statement.  I think the Grand Canyon was a better place to paddle before the Glen Canyon Dam.  First of all, the flows were consistent, rather than these funky daily fluxuations that go on now.  Also, the water was much warmer.  It was also possible to hit it at a high flow, which can happen now, but doesn’t happen every year like it used to.  I think the yearly patterns were fairly predictable, and I’m sure there was plenty of water most years for a full season.  There were also more sand bars.  And the list goes on….. I’m sorry, but I can’t agree that there is any good contributed to river running due to the Glen Canyon Dam.  The only good that dam does is for the Casinos in Las Vegas. Lori

Response:

   p.s. I can’t stand it when people call a dam controlled body of water a lake.  It’s a flowage or in some cases backwater.  (It’s usually the people who overpaid for property around it that will call it a lake)

Response:

That’s the best response I’ve heard yet. At least the one I liked best.  I wish more people were able to look at things as objectively. There is nothing wrong with being against something as long as you have good reason to feel the way you do. And it’s always better to temper your position with an understanding of the other side of an issue. It makes me feel better about this board to know that some of the people who frequent it  can logically address a topic and include insight with their opinions.  The Lake Powell thread on a similar subject had me doubting. -k_thomas

Response:

    I wouldn’t consider myself as an eco-nazi but benefits be "damned", should we screw with Mother Nature as much as we really do?       Living in the Great Lakes region I have seen the dramatic effects of water usage.  Lake Superior alone last year was down 13-20ft. (according to the media.. I never measured it)        I believe our world is dramatically changing every day, and not to our benefit.  Granted I’m only 30 years old, but I can remember snowfalls that where a far greater amount than we receive now.  There are probably a gad-zillion reasons why our planet seems to be changing so rapidly, and I just don’t see the benefits of raping a ecosystem that has had so much damage in the last 130 years.       As a more mature friend of mine has often stated to me…"think globally..and act locally" Craig       …and no I’m not about to stop driving my truck to the river.

Response:

Hetch Hetchy in California is perhaps the most egregious example.  A valley equivalent to Yosemite Valley is under water and closed to most public uses. The water from it goes to farmers and could easily be stored in Don Pedro Reservoir which is below it.

I dispute you here… Glen Canyon is by far the most egregious example with Boulder Damn not far behind. Having spent several long seasons climbing in Yosemite and imagining what was under Hetch Hetchy, I can agree that it too is an egregious wrong, but nowhere nearly so large or so environmentally destructive in it’s extent as Glen Canyon Damn and Lake Foul. Warren

Response:

I know that this isn’t the forum for a discussion of alternative energy sources but I really think that we need to take a serious look again at nuclear.  It, besides hydropower, is the only conceivable short-term source of abundant power.  If we, like much of the rest of the world, had a significant portion of our energy that comes from nukes, we wouldn’t need so many dams. I laugh whenever I hear the "Solar, Wind, Geothermal…." argument.  None of those are or will ever be a source of the abundant power that our country thinks it needs.  I don’t think that it is realistic to expect that Americans will be willing to drastically change the way we use energy. So what are the choices? 1) Fossil fuels – Bad, bad, dissappearing. 2) Hydropower – (see this discussion for reasons not to like them). 3) Alternative Energy (Diffuse – Not readily available) 4) Nuclear Energy Many of our fears about them are based on experiences from the 60’s and 70’s – The rest of the world has gone full speed ahead and the industry has forty years of experience behind them.  We can make them clean and safe. Many countries are sucessfully using our technology to dispose of the waste. Randy Hodges BTW – An interesting book about the depression era dam building is "Bucking the Sun" by Ivan Doig.  I found it interesting because my grandfather helped build Shasta Dam in California. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think my post really clasifies as a troll.  I was obviouslly looking for responses, but the intent was provoke thought and dialogue not argument and emotion. It just seems to me that paddlers have a knee jerk reaction to dams that defies logic. Someone in this thread mentioned the destruction of salmon species and of particularly unique environments as an argument against dams.  In the cases where those are valid concerns I completely see the agrument against the dam.  Those cases seem to be more an exception than a rule in my limited experience.  Maybe thats because I live in the east. But, I honestly believe that ,in general, dams are better for the environment that the main alternatives available today(coal, natural gas, and nuclear).  So to me the generic bad for the environment arguments holds no water(pun intended).  Solar, wind and tidal power may provide a cleaner, more environmentally friendly option in the future but are not economically viable yet today. my $.02 -k_thomas

Response:

      That’s a thoughtful question, D. There are MANY reasons why kayakers generally oppose dams, and no answer under 100 pages will be complete.   So I’ll try to give a simple perspective on two basic reasons why kayakers hate dams:     1.    I would say the simplest reason is purely ecological.  Dams tend to destroy habitat, first by the massive construction and earth-moving project, and then forever by changing river flow that has existed for millions of years, shaping the surrounding ecosystem.     2.   OK,  now let’s look at dams from purely a whitewater paddling perspective.   Yes,  some dams actually improve our whitewater resources. The Grand Canyon is the obvious biggie.  Here in the West,  the NF Payette in Idaho and the Tuolumne and Lower Kern in Calif. are other examples of dams stretching out the season.  A lot of boaters back east benefit from dam releases creating long seasons.       But there are many dams that reduce or outright  KILL a good whitewater run.   Nothing kills a river quicker than taking the water out of the river and putting it into a pipe. One of the greatest whitewater rivers in the world is the Kern River in Southern California. For about 20 million people to the south,  this is the ONLY major whitewater river within reasonable weekend driving distance.      The aforementioned Lower Kern runs longer because of the dam at Isabella Lake,   But this dam also raises water temperature,  and something is very wrong with the fish screening system at the dam’s outlet.  This combined with the lake use,  results in horrible water quality on the lower. Lots of ww paddlers complain about sinus problems after rolling in this water.  It takes a lot of the fun out of this run.      The best convenient day-run whitewater on the Kern that is not restricted by special-use permits (as is the classic Forks Run)  is the North Fork, or Upper Kern,  which holds almost 20 miles of runnable ww above Kernville.  Class II, III, IV and V runs are available on this stretch,  plus many playspots, and the whole stretch can be run in a day.          Anyway,  this absolute gem of a run is uniquely blessed with a long, long season,  thanks to the fact that it drains the highest peak in the lower 48, Mt. Whitney.  So on a good snowpack year,  you can run this whitewater,  on natural flow,  from March to October.        Well,  at least according to Mother Nature you can.   That’s where the evil hydropower dam comes in. The KR-3 hydro-dam at Fairview impounds and pipes the flow for about 13 miles of the NF Kern,  reducing  a world-class 17-mile river run,  deemed "Wild and Scenic" by Congress,   into two miles at the top, and two miles at the bottom,  with the middle 13 miles fairly dry for much of the season.               The pipe holds about 600 cfs.  Now,  on a good year, when the river is raging at 4,000 in spring,  it  doesn’t matter much  that the flow in the bypass reach,  or impacted stretch,  is reduced to 3,400.  But that’s the exception.   For most of the season,  the flow is usually around 1,000 cfs, which is a very fun flow for that river.  But reduce that to 400,  and the river is unrunnable for most kayakers.  Almost anything below 1,000 is pretty much  unrunnable for rafters.  So a world-class river, the closest such resource to the second-largest urban population in the country,  is unrunnable when nature is providing a lovely 1,600 cfs.   On dry or even moderate years, the flow might not get higher than this all year.         All of this for an outdated,  inefficient hydropower plant that has seen better days.      This is just one example of how one dam can dramatically impact a river,   and impact the kayakers and rafters who call this river home.  There are many other examples.    We’ve already dammed too many rivers.  We don’t have enough rivers left.   An earlier poster mentioned solar.   Concur.    Until I see a lot more solar panels and modern windmills,  I don’t want to hear about more hydropower dams.  And more important than all of this, we citizens and public agencies need to work much, much more on CONSERVING electricity.  We’re too spoiled with cheap energy.  Maybe the current price crisis out west will have a positive long-term impact.  Turning lights off,  not running our computers 24 hours a day, using efficient appliances, and recycling everything we can (saves mucho electricity from the manufacturing process) is a much better idea than damming more rivers.     OK, that’s the short answer. Respect our rivers.      Steve Waterstrat Steve Waterstrat

Response:

Dams suck because they drown rapids, cause untold ecological damage to the riparian environment downstream and are just one more example of humans thinking they know best.  There are almost always better ways to accomplish the same need. Warren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

I don’t think my post really clasifies as a troll.  I was obviouslly looking for responses, but the intent was provoke thought and dialogue not argument and emotion. It just seems to me that paddlers have a knee jerk reaction to dams that defies logic. Someone in this thread mentioned the destruction of salmon species and of particularly unique environments as an argument against dams.  In the cases where those are valid concerns I completely see the agrument against the dam.  Those cases seem to be more an exception than a rule in my limited experience.  Maybe thats because I live in the east. But, I honestly believe that ,in general, dams are better for the environment that the main alternatives available today(coal, natural gas, and nuclear).  So to me the generic bad for the environment arguments holds no water(pun intended).  Solar, wind and tidal power may provide a cleaner, more environmentally friendly option in the future but are not economically viable yet today. my $.02 -k_thomas

Response:

What do you all think?

I think there would be little runnable water in the east without dam releases! – Mothra

Response:

Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment

yeah, but around here you can still find traces of Indian fish "dams" on some rivers – places where rocks have been strategically placed to funnel the fishies into a chute.  i think we’ve been messing with mother nature for a long, long time. what’s scary to me is how little "wilderness" or natural places are left.  even in wild, wunderful west virginia there’s more bulldozers every year.   the rainforest too is becoming more and more civilized.   i’m no super environmentalist but i guess the earth is waning – dying if you will.  i love looking out my window at my stand of trees, but there’s a house being built next door and the lot next to me has been sold to a developer. . . . – Mothra

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I can’t speak for all paddlers.  In my case, the reason why my first thought is "Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment is full of unintended consequences.  When we dam a river, we change things, in a big way.  We can’t always anticipate exactly what will result. —

As always, there are two valid sides to any argument. On the pro-dam side we have: -An exceptionally clean source of electricity (an important concern in these days of "global warming" allegedly caused in part by CO2 produced from coal and natural gas fired power plants). -Flood control, saving lots of money in property damage and possibly some lives every spring. -Recreational benefits from the created lakes (e.g. sailing, power boating) -Irrigation On the anti-dam side we have: -Aesthetics (a flowing river is much nicer to look at than a wall of concrete) -Environmental concerns  (e.g. the effects of flooding habitats, blocking migration routes, etc.  A result of the law of unintended consequences was discovered when they  flooded huge areas of northern Quebec–naturally occurring mercury in the soil and trees ended up in the water, making the fish from the new reservoir toxic…) -Recreational benefits (e.g. kayaking, rafting, fly fishing) -Concerns regarding decommissioning -Concerns regarding effects of silt build up -Danger of poorly maintained, or aging dams.  Just ask people who lived along thousands of kilometers of the Peace River in northern BC and Alberta a few years ago when a sinkhole was discovered in the Bennett dam.  Luckily the sinkhole turned out to be minor and not an indication of imminent failure of the dam, but there was a real scare for a while. The spillway of the dam, opened all the way up could not drain the reservoir sufficiently to prevent a massive wave if the dam collapsed. Of course, every individual person will put different weights on these pro- and con- factors, leading to a different determination of whether or not dams are good or bad. -Paul

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

I can’t speak for all paddlers.  In my case, the reason why my first thought is "Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment is full of unintended consequences.  When we dam a river, we change things, in a big way.  We can’t always anticipate exactly what will result.   — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

It’s no fun to paddle a rapid which is under water, nor is it any fun to paddle a rapid which is completely dry.  Old timers can tell you about rapids which used to be fun and runnable which are now either submerged behind a dam, or downstream of a dam which diverts the water to someplace else. I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.

Some paddlers are more interested in paddling than in the generation, distribution, and consumption of ever increasing amounts of electric power.  Whitewater paddle craft use no electricity, and I’ve known a few boaters who have gone months at a time without using it either (e.g., living from the back of a pickup truck.) Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.

First of all, the "locality" affected by some dams can be *HUGE*.  The Three Gorges dam in China will permanently innundate 150,000 acres and force the relocation of 1.4 million people.  Besides the land that’s flooded, who knows how much additional impact will be caused by the displaced people, by the construction project, by the turning of almost four hundred miles of flowing river into a stagnant lake and, by the changes in the way the river banks will be used down stream (the main reason they’re building it is for flood control.) Secondly (and sadly), some paddlers are not interested in preserving ecosystems other than the ones that they happen to paddle through. [Dams] provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity.

Now  *THAT*  *IS*  *ARROGANT*!  Dams do not *MAKE* water.  Do you think the Gauley would dry up if someone took the Summersville Dam away?  The Gauley would still run, but it would run on God’s schedule instead of the Army Corps of Engineers’s schedule.  You might just as well tell us to praise the Federal Government for givings us money for schools and highways and whatever when all they are really doing is grudgingly returning a few of the dollars that they took from our pockets in the first place. — Foo! FWIW:  The Three Gorges dam will provide between 15,000 and 20,000        megawatts of electric power — about ten times the output of a        typical coal-fired power station.

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Why are paddlers most often against damming rivers?

I live in Northern California and we are faced with the possible loss of several species of Salmon and Steelhead.  Much (but certainly not all) of that is due to the deleterious effects of dams.  Dams stop or hinder migration, physically harm fish who are washed through generating facilities, and alter the water temperature and oxygen levels. In other cases, dams are objectionable because they have flooded incredibly beautiful valleys.  Hetch Hetchy and Glen Canyon are prime examples.  I seriously doubt that these would be built today. I don’t think that anyone but the most rabid of us are against all dams. Some are certainly necessary and appropriate.  There was a period in our history where nature was a thing to be conquered and where dams were built for dubious reasons such as "We can." or "Lets put people to work." or perhaps even "My supporters want it."  We need to careful consider removing these inappropriate dams. Hetch Hetchy in California is perhaps the most egregious example.  A valley equivalent to Yosemite Valley is under water and closed to most public uses. The water from it goes to farmers and could easily be stored in Don Pedro Reservoir which is below it. Randy Hodges

Response:

Rather than give an inadequate response (my first inclination was to say merely that there’s miles of runnable water under them thar resevoirs! which is true by the way) I would direct you to <americanrivers.org I think that aside from the recreational and commercial opportunities that dams obfuscate, we as paddlers have become by proxy guardians of the continuuity of running water by way of our identification with it and our love of it. There are lots of ecological, communal and scientific horrors that dams bring (many veiled by the relatively short term advantages of things like Las Vegas), especially old, deteriorating, no-longer-even-arguable-useful ones, but I think it boils down to a general belief that rivers are meant to flow and when you stop them up you’re flying in the face of mama nature and that hardly ever leads, in the end, to good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

<snip why dams are so great What do you all think?

well I think that … wait a second, there’s a brite and shiny piece of metal inside this morsel… and, hey, that’s connected to some almost invisible kind of thread.  I’d better go back to the safety of the weeds. Dave ‘looked like a juicy leech for a second there’ P

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

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I’ve wondered this about myself. The two stretches of water I regret most in my life of not having run are Glen Canyon and Ripogenous Gorge, both beneath reservoirs. But both stretches of river *below* the dams are runnable primarily because the dams are there.  Yet, I still feel that I’d rather the river was wild and often unrunnable than tamed and runnable. I suppose its because I spend much more time than the average flatlander ON the river, so I get to feel and see all the multitude of interactions between the elements of a riparian community. The presence of a dam imbalances that so much, upstream, at-site and downstream, that it seems abominable. I don’t see dams primarily as ‘power-generating stations’ any more than I see a wooded hillside as ‘iron ore’ or a pollution belching city as ‘economic opportunity’. riverman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

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I think overall anything changed in this world from its natural state is not good.  I know as an outdoor person I enjoy the beauty of nature in its natural state. Why don’t they spend more time and money on other forms of energy like Solar?  Would this not solve many problems like high oil, gas, electric costs?  As well as reduce pollution and other effects on the environment. Just my thoughts. Rgds – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

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Question:

excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings."

How exactly was announcing the creation of a new Utah related fly fishing site a ‘commercial solicitation?’  The site’s not trying to sell anything. Cut the guy some slack.

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I did. He posted a message earlier in the week and neither I nor anyone else commented. This is his second post within a week. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings." How exactly was announcing the creation of a new Utah related fly fishing site a ‘commercial solicitation?’  The site’s not trying to sell anything. Cut the guy some slack.

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New fly fishing website just launched… http://www.utahonthefly.com/

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So your announcement last week wasn’t the real opening excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – New fly fishing website just launched… http://www.utahonthefly.com/

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Question:

I’m fairly new to fly fishing. While I was taking a course in fly fishing the guide tied on two flies at once.  I’m trying to remember his technique. It seems that he tied line on the hook on one fly and added another on the end. How do you tie on more than one fly? Is this even a good idea? Thanks Greg

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Hi Gregory, That is known as tying on a ‘dropper’ fly.  I tie it on above the barb of the first fly, using the clinch knot, about 18" long.  There are other methods of tying on a dropper on the tippet above the terminal fly, but your instructor wanted to keep it simple.  And yes, it is a good idea to use a dropper at times.  Many times when fish won’t hit on top, they’ll go for the dropper.  I fish for bluegill with this method when they get a little sulky in the summer,  and again in the fall when topwater fishing slows down.  Some might call this ‘bobber fishin’, but don’t let that influence you. Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF  RET.

|I’m fairly new to fly fishing. While I was taking a course in fly fishing |the guide tied on two flies at once.  I’m trying to remember his technique. |It seems that he tied line on the hook on one fly and added another on the |end. How do you tie on more than one fly? Is this even a good idea? Thanks |Greg

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This is a common technique when fishing wet flies. A fly is tied to the end of the leader as usual and another is tied to what is called a dropper. This is usually made when tying the leader by extending one end of the blood knot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m fairly new to fly fishing. While I was taking a course in fly fishing the guide tied on two flies at once.  I’m trying to remember his technique. It seems that he tied line on the hook on one fly and added another on the end. How do you tie on more than one fly? Is this even a good idea? Thanks Greg

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(good dropper advice snipped ) Frank Church Elkhart, IN USAF  RET.

Frank, I know you are a smallie fan.  A #4 or #6 hair bug for the surface and a nymph or small streamer as a dropper tied in the manner you described makes a particularly deadly combination for smallmouth.  The fish may take either fly.  This also works on trout on larger waters and is particularly effective in faster water.  In the case of trout use a slightly smaler top bug and a size 14 or 16 nymph. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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You can add an additional fly by simply tying a length of tippet to the eye of the first fly. This is how I was taught on the San Juan. The first fly can be dry attractor ( serves as strike indicator) or other while the lower fly a nymph. Two nymphs regular technique on San Juan, at least for the guide I had. One warning, I am not sure two flies are legal on all waters. You should check before using this technique as ignorance of the rules will not necessarily get you off the hook so to speak. Regards from Montreal John Brkich

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Question:

Don Hill  (which I have a 16′ drift boat and like) http://www.dhdriftboats.com/ Greg Tatman (which my best fishing buddy has a 16′ and works great) http://www.gregboats.com/index2.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Im looking for website’s and any other information on the purchase of an 8 foot Pram for Flyfishing. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Tight Lines, Ernest V

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There is a company called Spring Creek on Bainbridge Island who sells an 8′ pram which is the best I’ve seen.  49" beam 16" freeboard, fiberglass, 65#. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Im looking for website’s and any other information on the purchase of an 8 foot Pram for Flyfishing. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Tight Lines, Ernest V

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Im looking for website’s and any other information on the purchase of an 8 foot Pram for Flyfishing. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. Tight Lines, Ernest V

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Question:

[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Tim, I would recommend putting a skylight filter on your lens. If you bump the front of your lens or scratch it, you have ruined a cheap filter and not an expensive lens. I’ve prevented expensive damage to two or three lenses this way. Just put it on and leave it. Your exposure won’t be noticably affected. Jim

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Hi Moe,

I only bring my camera when I’m hiking and fishing into a pretty, isolated area so it just goes into my daypack with everything else.  The pack stays on the bank when I go into the water.  It works out fine, and I haven’t lost the pack yet.  I don’t wear a vest, though, so I’m not sure how that would work. Dave

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Actually may soften the image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out!

Q: Do photographers still use Vaseline for the same effect? A: Not when they’re using a condom.  The petroleum weakens them, and they break. Be careful out there. Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a   ruggedized waterproof camera ? NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,       -tgades I’ve got the same camera – a great piece of work. To bad there’s no built-in lens cap for it, but it’s 99.9999% on the way to being the perfect camera for fishing. Nice macro feature for close-ups. Pentax has a new model (IQ 110?) for more money – with a very wide angle lens for panorama shots, but this one gives up on the water- resistance feature, I think. I also carry my camera in a plastic zip-lock baggie (my wallet’s got a baggie too) just to be sure it’ll survive my next unplanned wetdown. If I’m with someone else, they learn how to shoot a picture with it in about 10 seconds.

I tried the inexpensive point and shoot.  My photos were fine, but my ex-girlfriend couldn’t take a picture of me, with my fish, without cutting my head off.  I’ve easily got 20 pictures of me with fish that aren’t up to quality for the album. At least she had other attributes… I seem to recall Outer Banks used to sell a camera bag, made for several different makes.  Essentially a ziplock attached to a lens filter. Anyone ever use one?  Probably not good for underwater shots, but I bet it’d hold up through one of my early morning baths. — Mark N. Cahill For E-mail remove the _Remove_This from the reply to address.   On a side note, my grandfather aways told me you couldn’t catch fish until you got water in you waders.  I’ve ammended that to you can’t catch trophy fish until you’ve ruined the camera.  His maxim still holds true though.

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(But, being prone to being prone…

Priceless ! — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful.

Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ?   — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

DENNIS VICK responds: Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just

great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. And if you use the colored ones, It creates Great visual filter effects, Right?  Now, if they only made polorized ones for under water shots..;)

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[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

The better models in almost all camera makers lines are very shock resistant. Nikon F series, Pentax K series, Olympus OM, Cannon F series. If you keep your gear in a well padded and designed bag it will take a drop from body height without any problem. Zoom lenses can be the exception I have had them break when I rolled a bag of gear down a stairs. They can’t handle a blow head on. If you are really rough or travel a log get a hard case. I have run over my hard case with my truck without damage…….woops. If you do dunk a high quality slr equipment in a river get it to a camera repair person as soon as possible. If you dunk it good in saltwater look for a new camera. In using your camera. Remove from well padded case put strap over neck then make your pictures, change your film etc. Never set your gear on the trunk of your car. If you need a clean surface set your gear on the driver’s side hood. If you are hiking around rocks and need quick access to your camera keep it around your neck with the lens facing your body. This is photojournalist style. If you have been working in a dusty area use canned air to remove dust. I don’t care where you put your lens cap but make a habbit of putting it in the same place every time. All the Best, Michael Smith

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for ….etc…. — TimW Halfordian Golfer      Tim – I carry a small 35mm auto-everything camera with me, and I protect it by putting it in a sturdy ziplock bag. Just before you close the last little corner of the ziplock, wrap your lips around it tightly and suck out the air in the bag; then quickly close the seal. This sort of molds to bag to the camera – you can even take a decent shot with the bag still on the camera in desperate circumstances. It has worked for me for many, many years.     In rereading this I see I have left myself wide open to your brand of humor, Tim. Try to restrain yourself, I am a respectable old lady of 66 [but still fishing!].      

Thank goodness you realize it as the harmless humor that it is …life is too short not to laugh…laugh loud and laugh often… Thanks very much for the tip and I will not take advantage of the obvious cheap shot that you left me and my devils workshop…   — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc.

You either have a really small camera or a really big asdfj NO CARRIER                                                 John Fereira

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DD Actually may soften the DD image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out! DD DD Q: Do photographers still use Vaseline for the same effect? DD DD A: Not when they’re using a condom.  The petroleum weakens them, and they DD break. Be careful out there. Oh man, I knew I forgot something important in the original post, and now I remember it… Be certain to buy the UNLUBRICATED version of the condom for use with your cameras! Now for the photography question. YES, wedding photographers still do this on occasion, but usually on a screw on filter instead of the actual lense, at least after their first try. I have also made many different special effects in the past by fooling with things on the filter. You can create a split-image rangefinder of sorts by a solid black stripe right down the middle of your filter for instance. Doesn’t show on the final image at all. Filters may be purchased with scored perpendicular lines on the called "starfire" filters which create incredble star highlights from candles, sunlight reflections off the water, etc. Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

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[deleted] I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Something I do not know yet is what the ‘practical’ shock-limit is on these SLR’s.  I mean, jostling them about…sticking them here and there…is that OK ?

It probably depends on the model.  My Canon has been on every backpacking trip I’ve been on in the past couple years and accompanies me on most fishing trips.  So far, I haven’t managed to even put a scratch on it.  If it is raining, I can take it out, take a picture, whipe the rain off, and put it back in the case with no harm done.  One of these times, I’m sure I’ll take a nasty tumble and kill it, but so far so good.   Later,      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. Good Lord, I hate to see the reponse from this one…but I AM SERIOUS. BTW, be sure to buy a good name brand. Leaks in these things can be pretty devastating. I swear, I am serious, Try it…….really! These things will blow up to 6′ diameter. No problem with a little camera. Stretch the material over the lense part so its close to clear. Why am I explaining this to you anyway, didn’t your parents tell you anything! Teachers, clergy, planned parenthood? Oh heck, just have fun. It works!

Interesting… You shoot through the stretched latex ???? I can really see explaining the condoms to my wife as I head out the door for a weeks fishing in Idaho… "Really honey, they are, uh, for my, uh, camera…!!!" This is a family area ?   Scary, as you can be in alt.things.even.your.mama.never.told.you in about 3 mouse clicks… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Moe, I have a Nikon FG and a Nikon F70, both of which cause me to cring a little when I bring them close to the water. I enjoy the artistic element of using an SLR too much to justify getting a waterproof auto camera. I have thus run into your problem. So far I have handled it by only taking the camera out of the car for dedicated photo shoots. I try to avoid wading with the camera if possible. When I’m done I get the rod out again and enjoy the fishing.  Last year my sis’ accompanied me on a trip and I got her to take some photos of me from the bank while I was wading. I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Paul

I’ll second the sticking with the SLR.  I have a Canon Elan.  I went to G.I. Joe’s and got a small (6"x7"x2") canvas bag.  It’s not waterproof, but it keeps the rain out.  It’ll hold the body and one lens, detached of course.  I wrap them both in ziplock freezer bags and throw those little water absorption pads that come with most electronic equipment in with them (you know, the ones that advise not eating them).  Most electonic stores will give them away from the packaging of their floor models. I attach it to my vest or backpack with a carbeaner(SP?), but if the wading looks too risky I’ll leave it on the bank of the river.  Yes, I tend to fish in VERY isolated areas, do not try this in more crowded areas. My $0.02,      - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering

Response:

Hi. but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for ….etc…. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

     Tim – I carry a small 35mm auto-everything camera with me, and I protect it by putting it in a sturdy ziplock bag. Just before you close the last little corner of the ziplock, wrap your lips around it tightly and suck out the air in the bag; then quickly close the seal. This sort of molds to bag to the camera – you can even take a decent shot with the bag still on the camera in desperate circumstances. It has worked for me for many, many years.     In rereading this I see I have left myself wide open to your brand of humor, Tim. Try to restrain yourself, I am a respectable old lady of 66 [but still fishing!].       Louise Scharrenberg

Response:

BD Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great BD protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can sti BD use the buttons, etc. BD BD You either have a really small camera or a really big No big thing Roger.  Without getting too detailed, I have actually seen these things blown up to 5′ diameters and paper macheyed(sp?) in the old "phyche shops" of the 60’s. Pretty scary under black lights with flourescent posters and incense burning… Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

MS Interesting… MS MS You shoot through the stretched latex ???? Yep! You stretch it over the lense until it becomes pretty clear. Don’t have the technical reason for you, but cameras tend to ignore things that are very close to the lense. I have shot right thorough chain link fences for instance with no noticeable affect provided I was close enough. Actually may soften the image and shadows in a pleasing way. Try it out! MS I can really see explaining the condoms to my wife as I head out the MS door for a weeks fishing in Idaho… MS MS "Really honey, they are, uh, for my, uh, camera…!!!" Reminds of a story where the hunter bitches out his wife for not packing his socks after a three week hunting trip.. "But I did pack your socks honey!" "Where the he** did you pack them then?" "In the case with your rifle!" Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

Hi. I recently acquired my first 35mmSLR, and I really, really enjoy learning about and using it.  It is my sincere hope that I can capture some of the joys of flyfishing on film as it satisfies me.  I also want to try and document some of what I feel is very wrong in our sport, particularly overcrowding on the river and wounded or sickly fish that should be killed… but that is not why I post… How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. As it turns out, I had the opportunity to get some great shots of my dear friend flyfishing, but as it also turned out, I did a little uninentional snorkelling on saturday AM too…I would have gotten the camera wet, at the very least. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time. Tia, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly    Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a    ruggedized waterproof camera ?   NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,         -tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I recently acquired my first 35mmSLR, and I really, really enjoy learning about and using it……. How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. As it turns out, I had the opportunity to get some great shots of my dear friend flyfishing, but as it also turned out, I did a little uninentional snorkelling on saturday AM too…I would have gotten the camera wet, at the very least. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time.

Over the last twenty-five years I’ve had different cameras, SLR’s, range finders and one fixed lens. Sailing the ocean, mountaineering in unforgiving places, and stream side require different kind of cammera, NOT. Your camera, like your fly rod, is just a tool with limitations. What I discovered is, to take really wonderful shots use a SLR and buy every lens and gadget you find to help you at your task. Forget about fishing you won’t have time. You’ll be checking your light meter, checking back lighting, comparing gray scale zones, experimenting with how far you can push the ASA. And coming full circle when you move to a new location. Man that sounds like a lot of work and it really is. You could empty out you fishing vest and fill it full of camera stuff. Bingo, you are an official professional photographer or at least look like one. But for my money I went for the range finder type. One lens and one filter and that’s it. No fuss, good pic’s, with limitations. I just wanted to record what I saw, where I’d been, and what I’d experience. Just didn’t want to build a monument around it. I recommend these three range finder cameras, Reolli 35S (older german made w/big lens), Nikon Action Touch (really water proof to 12 feet), and an old Cannon Cannonete which is my current clicker. If my camera fell into bad grace I would not feel to badly because I mostly find used cameras that others have traded in to buy SLR’s. There’s a good steady supply, you just have to look for the deals. They do make waterproof bags that will keep your cameras dry, mostly used by white water rafters. But I hate cumbersome bags and am willing to take the chance on dousing the camera. Maybe if your fascination of fishing pictures really develops you could start taking pictures underwater of trout behavior and taking the fly. Yes, like flyfishing, it’s just another disease. When you get the darkroom going I could use some flytying gear, hint, hint, hint, since you will be up to your elbows in developer and fixer. — Doug Knight                           metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $500.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.

Response:

MS How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a MS component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for MS the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or MS the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. MS Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a MS ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays MS home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride MS next time. Well I hate to mention this in a family area, but condoms work just great for protecting your SLR from the environment(non-ribbed type!) and you can still use the buttons, etc. Good Lord, I hate to see the reponse from this one…but I AM SERIOUS. BTW, be sure to buy a good name brand. Leaks in these things can be pretty devastating. I swear, I am serious, Try it…….really! These things will blow up to 6′ diameter. No problem with a little camera. Stretch the material over the lense part so its close to clear. Why am I explaining this to you anyway, didn’t your parents tell you anything! Teachers, clergy, planned parenthood? Oh heck, just have fun. It works! Dennis Vick … nfx v2.6 [C0000]                                                        

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a   ruggedized waterproof camera ?   NO and YES. I bought a Pentax IQ zoom waterproof camera (~$250-270) for this purpose after I fell into a stream in New Zealand with my friend’s camera (ruining it and leaving me without a small camera).  I rarely carry my SLR/lenses because of weight and fear that I will ruin a zillion dollars with one false step.  This particular waterproof camera is pretty good – it is not a simple point and shoot.  I wear it around my neck all the time when fishing, and I take more pictures now. cheers,    -tgades

I’ve got the same camera – a great piece of work. To bad there’s no built-in lens cap for it, but it’s 99.9999% on the way to being the perfect camera for fishing. Nice macro feature for close-ups. Pentax has a new model (IQ 110?) for more money – with a very wide angle lens for panorama shots, but this one gives up on the water- resistance feature, I think. I also carry my camera in a plastic zip-lock baggie (my wallet’s got a baggie too) just to be sure it’ll survive my next unplanned wetdown. If I’m with someone else, they learn how to shoot a picture with it in about 10 seconds. Don B. Wishful collector of Gillums and Dickersons – owner of Montague, H-I and Heddons.

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I, too, rarely carry my SLR when fishing. And I often regret it when I get back prints from my point and shoot that are incorrectly exposed. (But, being prone to being prone, it’s the only way to go for me). Does anyone have any ideas for an inexpensive (<$150) auto-focus that allows for manual exposure setting? John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

Response:

there a couple of nice "photo backpacks" on the market. the one i got has a space for water or snacks or whatever. although it is not 100% waterproof – it will keep my expensive gear dry during brief recreational swims. i have decided that the inconvenience of the extra weight on my back is outweighed by the potential for great photos. p.s.   olympus makes a very small camera (will fit in almost any vest pocket) that is weatherproof. i believe they cost around $200.   greg

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Hi Moe, I have a Nikon FG and a Nikon F70, both of which cause me to cring a little when I bring them close to the water. I enjoy the artistic element of using an SLR too much to justify getting a waterproof auto camera. I have thus run into your problem. So far I have handled it by only taking the camera out of the car for dedicated photo shoots. I try to avoid wading with the camera if possible. When I’m done I get the rod out again and enjoy the fishing.  Last year my sis’ accompanied me on a trip and I got her to take some photos of me from the bank while I was wading. I say stick with the SLR and be extra careful. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. How do you deal with an expensive electronic ridden camera as a component of your flyfishing equipment ?.  As I was preparing for the day on the river on Saturday, my vest could carry water or the camera, but not both, and I did not want another bag. Is this insolvable ?  Is the only answer a compromise towards a ruggedized waterproof camera ?  Perhaps the fishing stuff stays home and only the photography equipment makes the truck ride next time. Tia, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Question:

I want to take just a moment to thank the people who tried to connect for the Wednesday evening chat session.  Unfortunately, FlyFishAmerica’s Web Page Chat option just didn’t work quite the way we wanted it to.   I hurriedly configured an alternate means but unfortunately not everyone had Java enabled browsers.  So in the interim until the folks at FlyFishAmerica can come up with an alternate means of chatting we will connect via IRC Client Software.  In other words you will need mIRC, WsIRC for IBM Clones, or Homer and IRcle for Mac’s. In configuring set your irc server to: 206.230.8.18, on port 6667. We will chat Wednesday Feb 5, at 18:00 MST or 20:00 Eastern Joe

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to take just a moment to thank the people who tried to connect for the Wednesday evening chat session.  Unfortunately, FlyFishAmerica’s Web Page Chat option just didn’t work quite the way we wanted it to. I hurriedly configured an alternate means but unfortunately not everyone had Java enabled browsers.  So in the interim until the folks at FlyFishAmerica can come up with an alternate means of chatting we will connect via IRC Client Software.  In other words you will need mIRC, WsIRC for IBM Clones, or Homer and IRcle for Mac’s. In configuring set your irc server to: 206.230.8.18, on port 6667. We will chat Wednesday Feb 5, at 18:00 MST or 20:00 Eastern JoeForgive me for being computer illiterate, but, what is and irc server?  

Where do you get it?  Is it software?  More info. please. John

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connect via IRC Client Software.  In other words you will need mIRC, WsIRC for IBM Clones, or Homer and IRcle for Mac’s. In configuring set your irc server to: 206.230.8.18, on port 6667. We will chat Wednesday Feb 5, at 18:00 MST or 20:00 Eastern JoeForgive me for being computer illiterate, but, what is and irc server?   Where do you get it?  Is it software?  More info. please. John

John if you are using an IBM Clone then go to http://www.tucows.com and in the area for text chat download a program called mIRC.  It is pretty easy to set up.  mIRC will allow you to connect to IRC (Internet Relay Chat)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to take just a moment to thank the people who tried to connect for the Wednesday evening chat session.  Unfortunately, FlyFishAmerica’s Web Page Chat option just didn’t work quite the way we wanted it to. connect via IRC Client Software.   In other words you will need mIRC,WsIRC for IBM Clones, or Homer and IRcle for Mac’s. In configuring set your irc server to: 206.230.8.18, on port 6667. We will chat Wednesday Feb 5, at 18:00 MST or 20:00 Eastern JoeForgive me for being computer illiterate, but, what is and ircserver? Where do you get it?  Is it software?  More info. please. John if you are using an IBM Clone then go to http://www.tucows.com and in the area for text chat download a program called mIRC.  It is pretty easy to set up.  mIRC will allow you to connect to IRC (Internet Relay Chat)

Hello all… Sorry for the troubles we had before but they are now behind us. I re-wrote the FlyFishAmerica.com chat area, it has been fixed, it supports a lot more users and is wicked fast. It does not require any downloading or special software and is based on SERVERside Java which does not even require a Java enabled browser. Bob Stewart http://www.flyfishamerica.com/chat/chat.html

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I guess this question is for Al Beatty as much as everyone else.   Are we gonna try to chat Wed. evening again?

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I guess this question is for Al Beatty as much as everyone else. Are we gonna try to chat Wed. evening again?

Hi Joe Why don’t you start the chat and I’ll join in if I can. I have a fly tying class to teach and I’m not sure how long it will take. By the way I sure like your IRC server you showed me yesterday, it was great. Thanks much for sending me the soft ware. Good Tying &…. (the bobbin is on the way). — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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Where is the chat session going to be held from now on? John

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John: It is up in the air right now…..FFAmerica is in the process of working on their chat section ontheir page.  Til then try in your irc client to connect to: Server: 206.230.8.18 Port: 6667 Channel #FlyTyer Wednesday’s at 8:00pm EST – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where is the chat session going to be held from now on? John

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never done it before, but I have decided to try for freshwater prawns. These live in the streams on the Big Island of Hawaii. Maybe someone could share some pointers on fishing techniques. I’ve heard of people using crab nets.  They seem too fast for wading in with scooping nets.  Are there traps that one can build? -thanx -dan Are you talking about crawfish? or commonly called crawdads. If so, you can catch them with a baited trap or at night in the shallows with a light. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Here is info from an expert:         As a former 10 year resident of Kauai this is how all the locals trap prawns.         They get the standard wire mesh with 1/4 inch square spaces. Bend the mesh until you have made a tube about 18 inches long open at both ends. Close off one end flat with the left over mesh. You then suspend half of a coconut shell with the coconut meat still in the shell in the back of the tube where you have closed it off with the meat facing the open end. You then take a piece of the same wire mesh and form a cone with the small end roughly about the size of a tennis ball depending on the size of the prawns in the pond you are looking to harvest. Insert the cone in the open end of the tube and affix to tube (this prevents them from leaving the trap). Tie a string to the end and leave over night and the next morning you should have a nice breakfast waiting for you.         If you have never seen a prawn they look almost exactly like crawdads but their pinchers are about ten times as long and their bodies can be as long as 12 to 14 inches. A true Hawaiian delicacy! Aloha, Shane — Roller Hockey International Grass Valley League Office 13070 Fawn Hill Dr. Grass Valley, CA  95945 ph: 916-272-7825        FAX: 916-272-7858         Standings/Statistics    http://www.oro.net/~rhiglo/

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I’ve never done it before, but I have decided to try for freshwater prawns. These live in the streams on the Big Island of Hawaii.   Maybe someone could share some pointers on fishing techniques. I’ve heard of people using crab nets.  They seem too fast for wading in with scooping nets.  Are there traps that one can build? -thanx -dan

Response:

I’ve never done it before, but I have decided to try for freshwater prawns. These live in the streams on the Big Island of Hawaii.   Maybe someone could share some pointers on fishing techniques. I’ve heard of people using crab nets.  They seem too fast for wading in with scooping nets.  Are there traps that one can build? -thanx -dan

Are you talking about crawfish? or commonly called crawdads. If so, you can catch them with a baited trap or at night in the shallows with a light. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Question:

I have been to the shop in Dutch John many times as well as the one on the West side of the dam.  Both are full service shops with everything you need.  The dutch john one is closed though during the winter.  We were up there in November and it had been closed for the season, so be aware of that also.  I’m not sure when it reopens.

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Barry, There really isn’t a flyshop in Dutch John.  The closest thing to it is the combination gas station/general store/restaurant there in town.  It has very little in the way of fly fishing supplies.  You better count on bringing your own supplies and equipment.  However, if you are hiring a guide, the guides up there are usually pretty well equipped to meet your fly fishing needs.  I would check with them first before you go.

There is actually a very adequet fly shop at the Flaming Gorge Lodge complex about half way between Red Canyon Lodge and the river.

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HAS ANYBODY BEEN TO THIS LODGE???? HOW CLOSE IS IT TO THE GREEN RIVER??? ,AND FINALLY CAN YOU RECOMMEND A GOOD FLY SHOP IN DUTCH JOHN ,UTAH

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I was just in Dutch John and at the Flaming Gorge Lodge, just past the dam, which is as complete a fly shop as one could want to find at such a location. they got the flies and the advice (supplimented by the dozen or so people milling about).  nice place

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Barry,   I was at the Red Canyon Lodge last October.  It is a nice place with friendly people and a pretty good restaurant.  They have two types of places to stay while there.  One is the deluxe cabin – nice and comfy. The other is call the rustic cabin. I wouldn’t recommend the rustics unless it is summertime (they have only a wood stove for heating and they share a common bathhouse – it can get cold up there).  There is also a couple of lakes on the property that you can fish in. The lodge is about 10 to 15 minutes from the closest access on the Green, which happens to be below the dam.  The next closest location which is known as "little hole" is another 15 minutes beyond that. There really isn’t a flyshop in Dutch John.  The closest thing to it is the combination gas station/general store/restaurant there in town.  It has very little in the way of fly fishing supplies.  You better count on bringing your own supplies and equipment.  However, if you are hiring a guide, the guides up there are usually pretty well equipped to meet your fly fishing needs.  I would check with them first before you go. Anyway good luck and tight lines. Terry

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Question:

I have recently thought of trying to fish with fly gear.   What is a good way for me to try this sport without breaking the bank?

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* Le 01-05-95, JIM E. BECKER exprimait . ALL le propos suivant: JE JEI have recently thought of trying to fish with fly gear.   JEWhat is a good way for me to try this sport without breaking the bank? – First go to a local fly shop. They are the best source of advice. – Then try to get some lessons or rent the equipment to try it out (you will have to buy the flies though). But be aware that once you start you won’t be able to stop. I guess it should be classified has one of the incurable but  non-fatal disease…   Hope this help. Au plaisir de vous lire, Denis Lamy Trois-Rivieres (Quebec, Canada) ~~~ * VbReader 2.2 #67 * Veni, vidi, visa (Je suis venu, j’ai vu, j’ai paye)

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