Question:

Any opinions on what will be hatching this Thursday, with 90 degree weather last week, snow today, and low water?   On the river I’ll be fishing, on 4/25 I would expect the end of the Quill Gordons, some Blue Quills, the beginning of the Hendricksons, maybe some Shad Fly caddis.  But, with the odd weather, heaven knows what’s happening and I’d appreciate some opinions, founded in current observation or not. Thanks in advance. Glenn GKT

Response:

Any opinions on what will be hatching this Thursday, with 90 degree weather last week, snow today, and low water?   On the river I’ll be fishing, on 4/25 I would expect the end of the Quill Gordons, some Blue Quills, the beginning of the Hendricksons, maybe some Shad Fly caddis.  But, with the odd weather, heaven knows what’s happening and I’d appreciate some opinions, founded in current observation or not.

How are the water temps compared to what they would normally be?  IMO, that is a very important, if not THE most important, part of the "equation." — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

I think you’re right but I won’t know the exact temperature for that stream until I get there.  They are probably near normal now, most likely following a small spike during the four hot days. GlennHow are the water temps compared to what they would normally be?  IMO, that is a very important, if not THE most important, part of the "equation." — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

GKT

Response:

I think you’re right but I won’t know the exact temperature for that stream until I get there.  They are probably near normal now, most likely following a small spike during the four hot days.

Sometimes you can get water temps from the USGS Streamflow reports.  Look around http://mt.waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/help/?redirect=rt_www_redirect — Warren change addy to yahoo for email Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt3/HFclave.html

Response:

Question:

J Axelrad;  Sign me up for the raffle with a Strens fisherman’s clipper with zinger and a North Dakota water proof box.  I’m coming in Wed afternoon. Let me know if the timing is off.  Then again, I could always donate 1,000 used flies that never caught anything and never will 8}.

Response:

Lou Teletski wrote… J Axelrad;  Sign me up for the raffle with a Strens fisherman’s clipper with zinger and a North Dakota water proof box.  I’m coming in Wed afternoon. Let me know if the timing is off.  Then again, I could always donate 1,000 used flies that never caught anything and never will 8}.

You had better send it to me rather than bring it just in case.  Wed.  might be after the Raffle.  Don’t know for sure.  But why take a chance. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

You had better send it to me rather than bring it just in case.  Wed. might be after the Raffle.  Don’t know for sure.  But why take a chance. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Joe, I will send you a package of swap flies as well if you want to include them in your raffle. I need your snail mail addy. Frank Church Swap nazi

Response:

Joel, I’ll be there early but leaving Wednesday morning.  No problem if not being there makes a difference on paricippating in the drawing.  My 12 hooks with chicken feathers tied on (God bless Tyson’s Chicken) will still be there to participate.  Better not un-zip the baggy until outdoors and downwind from anyone of the few who may have taken a shower that week. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You had better send it to me rather than bring it just in case.  Wed.  might be after the Raffle.  Don’t know for sure.  But why take a chance. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

Raffle rules again… All those giving a prize will get one even if you don’t attend the clave. All those attending bring your prize with you but let me know what it is beforehand if you would. All those not attending and those who think they will depart before the raffle or arrive after the raffle send your prize to me.    Joel Axelrad    Uniform Graining Corp.    2120 W, Lake Street    Chicago, IL 60612     And lastly, I don’t know which nite, for sure, the raffle will be held.  The Clavemeister has not spoken!   Tom, we wait your decision.  Tues.? Wed.?  Let us know. Watch this space for the answer. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

And lastly, I don’t know which nite, for sure, the raffle will be held. The Clavemeister has not spoken!   Tom, we wait your decision.  Tues.? Wed.?  Let us know.

Since Tuesday is the only night I have a snowball’s chance of being there, that gets my vote. Joe F.

Response:

Joe writes: Since Tuesday is the only night I have a snowball’s chance of being there, that gets my vote.

Don’t forget the torches! Dave

Response:

Joe F. wrote… Since Tuesday is the only night I have a snowball’s chance of being there, that gets my vote.

If you promise to do an encore of your act I’ll vote with you. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

And lastly, I don’t know which nite, for sure, the raffle will be held. The Clavemeister has not spoken!   Tom, we wait your decision. Tues.? Wed.?  Let us know. Since Tuesday is the only night I have a snowball’s chance of being there, that gets my vote. Joe F.

Sounds good to me too Scott

Response:

If you promise to do an encore of your act I’ll vote with you. Joel Axelrad

Well shit, I better find some glue & put the boxes back together. <g Joe F.

Response:

Don’t forget the torches!

We got us a volunteer again Stan!   Better start practicing.  <g Joe F.

Response:

Joe F. If you promise to do an encore of your act I’ll vote with you. Joel Axelrad Well shit, I better find some glue & put the boxes back together. <g Joe F.

I’ll bring matches and lighter fluid.  <g For the torches, the torches, not those little box thingies……d;0(

Response:

Joe F. writes: Don’t forget the torches! We got us a volunteer again Stan!   Better start practicing.  <g

Yeah, Stan.  Practice, practice, practice.  No fishing from now until then – just practice with those torches.  You don’t mind if I face Stan instead of you, Joe. Dave practicing running and ducking and trying to remember where his asbestos bvds are

Response:

Oh almighty rafflemiester put me down for a fly-tying book as i don’t tie yet i don’t need one maybe some flyline as someday i may tie so maybe i should keep it boy do i hate these aarp moments.Whatever day is picked will be fine with me. Handyman   Mike

Response:

I’m with Joe.  Tuesday night! — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since Tuesday is the only night I have a snowball’s chance of being there, that gets my vote. Joe F.

Response:

I’m with Joe.  Tuesday night!

Well, if you’re with me, you’ll be at a dinner with me and swmbo. Aaaaargh.   As it turns out, she had screwed up the dates she told me for that one.   Now I have committments on Sunday, Tuesday & Thursday.   It’s looking pretty f*cking unlikely I’ll get there at all now.   Giant bummer. Joe F.

Response:

Joe fleischman wrote… Well, if you’re with me, you’ll be at a dinner with me and swmbo. Aaaaargh.   As it turns out, she had screwed up the dates she told me for that one.   Now I have committments on Sunday, Tuesday & Thursday.   It’s looking pretty f*cking unlikely I’ll get there at all now.   Giant bummer. Joe F.

You gotta come.  You gotta juggle.  You gotta fish.  You gatta be with friends. Joel Axelrad **DFD**

Response:

Joel writes: You gotta come.  You gotta juggle.  You gotta fish.  You gatta be with friends.

You gotta try and hit me with the flaming torch.   Be there, Joe, be there. Dave

Response:

I’m with Joe.  Tuesday night! Well, if you’re with me, you’ll be at a dinner with me and swmbo.

millheim inn? <g Aaaaargh.   As it turns out, she had screwed up the dates she told me for that one.   Now I have committments on Sunday, Tuesday & Thursday.   It’s looking pretty f*cking unlikely I’ll get there at all now.   Giant bummer. Joe F.

bummer indeed….. i was hopin we could wet a line together this year….. 2003? –wally

Response:

You gotta come.  You gotta juggle.  You gotta fish.  You gatta be with friends. You gotta try and hit me with the flaming torch.   Be there, Joe, be there. Dave

If it’ll help you, Dave, I can toss a few cigars at you…  Just trying to help.

Response:

Stan writes: If it’ll help you, Dave, I can toss a few cigars at you…  Just trying to help. If it’ll help you, Dave, I can toss a few cigars at you…  Just trying to help.

Wouldn’t be the same, Stan.

Response:

If’n ya’ll want, I can wait till more people get there before I start the fire for the stew.  That oughta be ’nuff entertainment for the most jaded.            Frank

Response:

bummer indeed….. i was hopin we could wet a line together this year….. 2003?

Friday’s still alive as a longshot.   SWMBO gets degree at ceremony Thurs. a.m.   Perhaps a celebratory lunch, a leisurely afternoon basking in the glow of academic success, them off to Coburn?   I dunno; I might get away with it.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

aw hell…i heard they will deliver diplomas by mail now …if you were a real manly man, you’d try that approach and do your celebrating at the historic millheim hotel.  of course, i must admit i tried similar antics more than 20 years ago with my first spouse, and it got me a whole lotta new freedoms…freedom from my bank account, furniture, car, and marriage.  but then, i didn’t have your magical talents… <g we’ll miss you this year… hope you can find your way down to carolina again now that you have some proper footgear… jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – bummer indeed….. i was hopin we could wet a line together this year….. 2003? Friday’s still alive as a longshot.   SWMBO gets degree at ceremony Thurs. a.m.   Perhaps a celebratory lunch, a leisurely afternoon basking in the glow of academic success, them off to Coburn?   I dunno; I might get away with it.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Joe, Suggest we do a combined blowout Sunday for both the wives in collective celebration.  You keep waders in the van to bug out right after ceremonies Thursday and get back late Saturday night.  If we make a big enough deal out of Sunday, think we can make it fly(fish)?? Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Friday’s still alive as a longshot.   SWMBO gets degree at ceremony Thurs. a.m.   Perhaps a celebratory lunch, a leisurely afternoon basking in the glow of academic success, them off to Coburn?   I dunno; I might get away with it.  :-) Joe F.

Response:

Question:

First of all, my apologies to those who did not get in this year, I wish we could sign up everybody that wants to swap. Now, I tried sending out this list via private email but 2 keep bouncing back, John Russell, I need your correct email address, and an unnamed from aol keeps bouncing.  Aol, in their own inimitable stye won’t say who it is. (!)  Anyway, here it is for better or worse. COPY BEGINS HERE…… Well folks, this will be the final tally on tyers unless someone else decides to drop out. Because of a screw-up on my part, we have wound up with 41 instead of "just" 40.  I trust this will not cause a problem for anyone. PLEASE, when you communicate with me, do it in private e-mail and just use FLY SWAP  in the subject line.  Depending on roff/rofft for communication has caused some problems for me in getting the info in a timely manner.  OK, I’m hitting the road in a few minutes and won’t be available to return messages until sometime this coming Saturday.  Have fun tying and for those who have yet to name your fly, no big deal, but it would be nice if you could remember to send me the name of your pattern when you decide what to tie. 2.   Randy Kane…….TBA 3.   Hans van der Stroom…….TBA 4.   Walter Huff……Deer Hair Bug 5.   Dave Martel…..(LaFontaine Emergent Sparkle Caddis) 7.   John Russell…….(Gold Butt Bear) 9.   Peter Collin……Mark’s Carpet Fly 10.  Lou Teletski…..Epoxyhead Baitfish 11.  Tim Lysyk……. Olive Mountain Midge 14.  Brian Nelson…….TBA 15.  Paul Goodwin……TBA 16.  Sam Stump…….Zug Bug 18.  John Whitely…….TBD 19.  John Brandt…..Royal Coachman Marabou Streamer 20.  Ronald Ausman……TBD 24.  Jamie Heim…….Canadian Killer 28.  Eugene Knapik…… Usual 29.  Jeff Gooldy….Altmar Sunrise 30.  Bob Beardall……TBD 31.  Chris Fanning…….Clouser Tube Fly 34.  Bob Weinberger…….Olive and Starling soft hackle 35.  Michael Hewitt…….Matuka type fly 36.  Charlie Wilson……TBD 38.  Wayne Hart…..TBD 39.  Willi Loehmann….TBD 40.  Warren Findley…..TBD 41.  Herman Nijland….TBD Your Benevolent Old Gray Swapmeister Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -}<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – First of all, my apologies to those who did not get in this year, I wish we could sign up everybody that wants to swap. Now, I tried sending out this list via private email but 2 keep bouncing back, John Russell, I need your correct email address, and an unnamed from aol keeps bouncing.  Aol, in their own inimitable stye won’t say who it is. (!)  Anyway, here it is for better or worse. COPY BEGINS HERE…… Well folks, this will be the final tally on tyers unless someone else decides to drop out. Because of a screw-up on my part, we have wound up with 41 instead of "just" 40.  I trust this will not cause a problem for anyone. PLEASE, when you communicate with me, do it in private e-mail and just use FLY SWAP  in the subject line.  Depending on roff/rofft for communication has caused some problems for me in getting the info in a timely manner.  OK, I’m hitting the road in a few minutes and won’t be available to return messages until sometime this coming Saturday.  Have fun tying and for those who have yet to name your fly, no big deal, but it would be nice if you could remember to send me the name of your pattern when you decide what to tie. 2.   Randy Kane…….TBA 3.   Hans van der Stroom…….TBA 4.   Walter Huff……Deer Hair Bug 5.   Dave Martel…..(LaFontaine Emergent Sparkle Caddis) 7.   John Russell…….(Gold Butt Bear) 9.   Peter Collin……Mark’s Carpet Fly 10.  Lou Teletski…..Epoxyhead Baitfish 11.  Tim Lysyk……. Olive Mountain Midge 14.  Brian Nelson…….TBA 15.  Paul Goodwin……TBA 16.  Sam Stump…….Zug Bug 18.  John Whitely…….TBD 19.  John Brandt…..Royal Coachman Marabou Streamer 20.  Ronald Ausman……TBD 24.  Jamie Heim…….Canadian Killer 28.  Eugene Knapik…… Usual 29.  Jeff Gooldy….Altmar Sunrise 30.  Bob Beardall……TBD 31.  Chris Fanning…….Clouser Tube Fly 34.  Bob Weinberger…….Olive and Starling soft hackle 35.  Michael Hewitt…….Matuka type fly 36.  Charlie Wilson……TBD 38.  Wayne Hart…..TBD 39.  Willi Loehmann….TBD 40.  Warren Findley…..TBD 41.  Herman Nijland….TBD 42.  George Gehrke ….The Bigot Special Your Benevolent Old Gray Swapmeister Frank Church in Elkhart, IN bassbugr AT yahoo dot com }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<((((o ~~~ }<(((o

Response:

42.  George Gehrke ….The Bigot Special

george, you can’t help spewing yer vitriolic shit everywhere, can ya? you are one sad example of a homo sapien….. oneday soon, i’m convinced you will be received warmly in hell. –waldo

Response:

Walt?  Not true.  I don’t see how an old fart like you can continue with such nonsense?  Thing is Walt, it doesn’t take much to piss you off about ANYTHING! If you want The Bigot Special, just ask, I’ve always been tolerant of you Walt.   christ.  Lighten up man. George Gehrke To hell and back 42.  George Gehrke ….The Bigot Special george, you can’t help spewing yer vitriolic shit everywhere, can ya?

f*^# you Walt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – –waldo

Response:

one of these day’s i’ll learn not to respond to the friggin’ village idiot. –waldo

Response:

<snip f*^# you Walt.

Exactly what I was talking about last week George. Same old cycle.  Show up, post a few relatively informative messages, try to act friendly, then resort to the same old insults and bombast.  Start a flame war, leave in a huff, promise to stay away for a while, then come back a day later for more.  The cycle repeats as it has since 1995. Somebody on the commercial side of flyfishing should think a bit more before making public postings in a flyfishing newsgroup, George.  Thousands of people read these messages.  You lose more potential customers every time you repeat this cycle.  You provide entertainment for your detractors, and hurt your business.  What’s the sense of that? –Stan – post followups to misc.business.marketing.clueless (gonna buy a Bud Lite for Waldo and let it sit on my car until May – freeze, thaw, heat up, repeat)

Response:

(gonna buy a Bud Lite for Waldo and let it sit on my car until May – freeze, thaw, heat up, repeat)

jeez stan, what the hell did i ever do to you to deseve *that*? –waldo, screw-it, ya’ll can find me at the wiekert sportsmans club come may….. yuengling on draft

Response:

jeez stan, what the hell did i ever do to you to deseve *that*? –waldo, screw-it, ya’ll can find me at the wiekert sportsmans club come may….. yuengling on draft

Winters, you are nothing more than a quibbler.  All of you carolina people are quibblers. Quibblers, quibblers, quibbler. So, their! G. Gehrke American Jet Warrior

Response:

Your vocabulary speaks for itself on the higher plains of roff.  Did you take college courses in swearing or did you just attend North Carolina University for a week? George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – one of these day’s i’ll learn not to respond to the friggin’ village idiot. –waldo

Response:

Question:

After 40 years of fishing I finally had the time to slow down and start to learn the fine art of feather chucking.  Great way to angle,well worth the time spent. The problem I am having is I have spent 40yrs fishing and guiding  for Kings,Coho,Steelhead and White Sturgeon.I am thinking maybe I should buy a spay rod for these large fish? Does anyone have a recommendation on length of rod and  what type and size of reel.  I have purchased two cheap 6wt rods and spent last summer trying to learn the basics. I spend approx 70 to 80 days a year on rivers,doing Sturgeon research and have most of the day to practice. Also I was wondering if true "fly fishermen" would considering being guided by a "newbie". I have spent my lifetime flying,hiking and jet boating into the lakes and rivers of Central British Columbia. I have been very fortunate and have guided for people that have caught world class fish i.e. 85lb Kings 500lb Sturgeon. Thanks for your time,please advise. "Sturge On"  Gord

Response:

After 40 years of fishing I finally had the time to slow down and start to learn the fine art of feather chucking.  Great way to angle,well worth the time spent.

(snipped) Gord – can’t offer any advice on the spey rod.  I would say, however, that anyone with the experience that you have would be a great guide, regardless of tackle and species.  there was a thread here recently on fly fishing for sturgeon, which didn’t shed much light on the subject, as I recall.  Anyhow, I hope you get some competent advice. Mark Faulkner

Response:

and have guided for people that have caught world class fish i.e. 85lb Kings 500lb Sturgeon. Thanks for your time,please advise. "Sturge On" Gord

What the hell kind of fly would you tie for a 500lb. sturgeon, a poodle, or maybe a schnauzer? Poodle would be fun. Big Al…the poodles pal

Response:

What the hell kind of fly would you tie for a 500lb. sturgeon, a poodle, or maybe a schnauzer? Poodle would be fun. You’d need to xink up that poodle good to get it down, they’re normally high floaters and better for big gar. — Charlie…

Charlie, what about a "bunny"?

Response:

Charlie, what about a "bunny"? that would be a hare’s ear "version", i reckon, al? everything has its place. wayno

I think it is, wayno, I’m going to "demo" one this weekend, weather permitting.

Response:

What the hell kind of fly would you tie for a 500lb. sturgeon, a poodle, or maybe a schnauzer? Poodle would be fun.

You’d need to xink up that poodle good to get it down, they’re normally high floaters and better for big gar. — Charlie…

Response:

Charlie, what about a "bunny"?

        that would be a hare’s ear "version", i reckon, al?         everything has its place. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

Watching ESPN2 recently I chanced across a young lady (seemingly well accomplished in the fly-fishing arts) guiding the show host on a snowy winter stream near Cooke City Montana.  She was fishing dry flys downstream. According to her "when the water is clear and the fish spook easily this prevents ""lining the fish"".

Hi Hart, I didn’t read any of the other post yet, but I am sure there are some good answers. I know that on smooth water that is moving slowly the fishing can be tough on the surface. I usually add on 3 feet of 6x or 7x tippet with a #16 or 18 dry, like a Spinner, Parachute, Cripple or Sparkle Dun. I get 30 to 50 feet above the fish and cast my fly downstream  ~3 feet above it’s rise form. Stop the rod high and shake down some slack so it won’t drag. We learned this from guide Bob Quigley in the 70s on California’s Hat Creek. This way the first thing the fish sees is the fly! If you rent or buy Doug Swisher 3M video, ‘Advanced Strategies for Selective Trout’, you will see Doug demonstrate presenting a fly from any point 360 degrees to the fish. I think this is a standard technique on any western spring creek? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Watching ESPN2 recently I chanced across a young lady (seemingly well accomplished in the fly-fishing arts) guiding the show host on a snowy winter stream near Cooke City Montana.  She was fishing dry flys downstream. According to her "when the water is clear and the fish spook easily this prevents ""lining the fish"". Being a new student of the art, everything I read or listen to tells me dry flys Upstream, wet flys up or down stream and nymphing requires years of experience.  Now I wonder how far a trout is seeing upstream.  I have recently experienced "lining the fish" with a pod of three browns while fishing a streamer upstream.  The floating leader alone spooked the fish. Any thoughts on downstream dry fly fishing and range of sight for trout? As a side note: I have caught a couple of lesser fish when allowing the dry fly to float 20 to 30 feet behind me as I moved up stream in the hole.  I don’t consider this a method I wish to regularly adopt but peaks my curiosity about fish sight range. Wayne To fish is human…to release devine.

Response:

The book "Trout and the Fly" by John Goddard offers some interesting insight into a trout’s sight window.   You will line a trout on a downstream drift if the trout does not take the fly and you allow the fly to continue its drift well past the fish. Clint

Response:

Interesting, I started fly fishing in 1948 and find that fishing a dry fly upstream to be the most successful method.  Only in special circumstances where the water is smooth and clear and the trout are "educated" do I use the downstream method. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started fly fishing in 1952, and the only hard and fast rule I have discovered is that in order to be succesful, you have to adapt your method to suit the current conditions.  As far as dry flies go, I find direct upstream fishing to usually be the least successful method because you will "line" the fish, and drag is difficult to control.   Usually a quartering upstream or side approach is best. If the surface of the water is not smooth, such as a riffle, the downstream method can be quite effective. As far as what other people think of your method, if it is legal, and you are not crowding or otherwise disturbing them, don’t worry about what they think. Tight Lines!!! George

Response:

Ernie, Just goes to show that there are no *right* answers.  Jeez, was I ever bagged when I wrote my first post on this thread.  It’s a miracle I made any sense at all.  Blame it on the Sleemans and keeping bad company (in-laws.) Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Interesting, I started fly fishing in 1948 and find that fishing a dry fly upstream to be the most successful method.  Only in special circumstances where the water is smooth and clear and the trout are "educated" do I use the downstream method. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh I started fly fishing in 1952, and the only hard and fast rule I have discovered is that in order to be succesful, you have to adapt your method to suit the current conditions.  As far as dry flies go, I find direct upstream fishing to usually be the least successful method because you will "line" the fish, and drag is difficult to control.   Usually a quartering upstream or side approach is best. If the surface of the water is not smooth, such as a riffle, the downstream method can be quite effective. As far as what other people think of your method, if it is legal, and you are not crowding or otherwise disturbing them, don’t worry about what they think. Tight Lines!!! George

Response:

_______ Are you sure you’re not a professional troller Mr. Hart because I think you know the subject of dabbling a dry fly downstream. Mr. G. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Watching ESPN2 recently I chanced across a young lady (seemingly well accomplished in the fly-fishing arts) guiding the show host on a snowy winter stream near Cooke City Montana.  She was fishing dry flys downstream. According to her "when the water is clear and the fish spook easily this prevents ""lining the fish"". Being a new student of the art, everything I read or listen to tells me dry flys Upstream, wet flys up or down stream and nymphing requires years of experience.  Now I wonder how far a trout is seeing upstream.  I have recently experienced "lining the fish" with a pod of three browns while fishing a streamer upstream.  The floating leader alone spooked the fish. Any thoughts on downstream dry fly fishing and range of sight for trout? As a side note: I have caught a couple of lesser fish when allowing the dry fly to float 20 to 30 feet behind me as I moved up stream in the hole.  I don’t consider this a method I wish to regularly adopt but peaks my curiosity about fish sight range. Wayne To fish is human…to release devine.

Response:

Wayne Hart: <<Wayne To fish is human…to release devine. Uh oh!  Glad I’m not gonna be around for awhile. Dave L.

Response:

Being a new student of the art, everything I read or listen to tells me dry flys Upstream, wet flys up or down stream and nymphing requires years of experience.  Now I wonder how far a trout is seeing upstream.  I have recently experienced "lining the fish" with a pod of three browns while fishing a streamer upstream.  The floating leader alone spooked the fish.

The library will help: the books of Vince Marinaro include up-to-date experiments on what fish can see and how far (studied since approx. 1875); Leonard Wright’s Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect (about 1973) explains at length a method of fishing a dry caddis across and downstream, and the times when this produces better than other methods. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Wayne:  I can’t add much to the series of informative replies already posted, but can share my experience that the hooking of trout when floating a dry downstream is trickier than with the upstream or across presentations.  I have always assumed that this is because when you strike, you are pulling the fly right out of the mouth.  When fishing upstream, a strike pulls the fly back into the side of the mouth.  Thus, my hooking rate declines when fishing downstream, even though I try to set the hook more softly. Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Being a new student of the art, everything I read or listen to tells me dry flys Upstream, wet flys up or down stream and nymphing requires years of experience.  Now I wonder how far a trout is seeing upstream.  I have recently experienced "lining the fish" with a pod of three browns while fishing a streamer upstream.  The floating leader alone spooked the fish. The library will help: the books of Vince Marinaro include up-to-date experiments on what fish can see and how far (studied since approx. 1875); Leonard Wright’s Fishing the Dry Fly as a Living Insect (about 1973) explains at length a method of fishing a dry caddis across and downstream, and the times when this produces better than other methods. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – She was fishing dry flys downstream. According to her "when the water is clear and the fish spook easily this prevents ""lining the fish"". Being a new student of the art, everything I read or listen to tells me dry flys Upstream, wet flys up or down stream and nymphing requires years of experience.  Now I wonder how far a trout is seeing upstream.  I have recently experienced "lining the fish" with a pod of three browns while fishing a streamer upstream.  The floating leader alone spooked the fish. Any thoughts on downstream dry fly fishing and range of sight for trout? As a side note: I have caught a couple of lesser fish when allowing the dry fly to float 20 to 30 feet behind me as I moved up stream in the hole.  I don’t consider this a method I wish to regularly adopt but peaks my curiosity about fish sight range.

Hi Wayne, Trout see best in front, and slightly above them.  They have binocular vision and can judge distances very well in about a 30

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Now, what did you expect making a comment like that n a jeep ng…. What a weenie…

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".

You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. — Its a Jeep thing..You would’t understand. URL: http://the-threshold.org/gallery/jeep                   OR Its an Anoraks thing.. You don’t want to understand URL: http://the-threshold.org/Anorak-Offroad

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting… " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

  that was funny. Sorry guys and gals. I have to be a traitor on this one. I live in a college town. And here the average Jeep driver’s values and experiences have very little in line with me. Unless it’s clearly built or restored, it’s just another car. -ejs

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing.

Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

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Wow! If it isn’t Muskie the Wonder Troll returning to haunt our newsgroups!   Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

You still can’t get it right:  "It’s a Jeep thing… you wouldn’t understand" is the phrase. Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

Those that I have seen who have actually bestowed the phrase on their vehicle are generally those who actually take the vehicles off-road, go camping, lead an active life style, toss on a trailer of jet-ski’s or dirt bikes and actually have a life.  These people go to the Jeep Jamboree’s, the Trail Runs, etc.  They are far from ’sheep’ though a few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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How much would an Old Man Emu lift cost on an 86 cherokee?  I am looking for ball park estimates on the ~3" lift reviewed on off-road.com (i think). Also, are there web sources for Old Man Emu ordering? Thanks, jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

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Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

If your idiotic flame bait bothered me at all, you might be right… Motorcycles have the same cadre relationship.  When you’re on a bike or a harley, almost *everybody* waves.  It is no different, and I think anybody who buys a jeep or a bike only for the waves is going to be sorely disappointed. Besides, it IS a JEEP thing, and you CLEARLY DO NOT understand.  at all… jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

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few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer.

I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great. jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

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few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

hehe, I must admit I never thought of it that way.. but I have thought of it as a way to keep the vehicles in production and to keep the prices somewhat down.. on the other hand the high demand has surged what should be an $18-22k vehicle up to nearly $40k.. almost a full half of which is profit for Chrysler. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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HUH?! Where the hell is your point? Meanwhile, if you don’t understand – don’t bother trying.  Obviously, you don’t own a Jeep, so there’s your first obstacle.  The next is being a brand-loyal four-wheeler, where everybody who doesn’t drive you’re particular make of vehicle is pond-scum.  And finally, you’re a little dissatisfied with whatever make of vehicle you’re driving (and a little envious of a Jeep) to take issue with something you don’t or want to understand.  Get a life. I do think that we, as four-wheelers, need to recognize all makes and models as brethren and form an even larger following with a much more accurate motto:  "It’s a 4×4 thing…you asphalt-bound grocery-getters certainly wouldn’t understand."  Anybody with a purpose-built, fill-tilt-boogie off road rig (no matter what it is) gets a wave and nod-of-approval from me. Until then, it’s just us Jeepers… Eric ‘80 CJ-7 – 4" Pro Comp, 33×15.50 Swampers, and way too many other things to mention, ‘85 Nissan King Cab 4×4 – 31×10.50 AT’s, no lift, gets me to work and pulls the boat. — Opinions, everybody’s got one of those, too. You know how to Reply…

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Muskie,        Just when we thought Mr. Troll himself had finally gone away it slithers back in… I have a jeep because I always wanted one and I could care less who else has one. The jeep wave is a tradition, not really a club thing.  I know, you don’t get it. What does "It’s a jeep thing" mean?  It’s a diverse cultural association.  I think you exemplify a jeep cultural disassociation when you wrote "it’s just a d*** car."  That’s the difference.  I doubt you’re bright enough to figure it out though. Don To avoid a flame war I must add.  I am biased to jeeps but there are other manufacturers that build excellent vehicles.  This retort is aimed specifically at Muskie and not other vehicle afficianados. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. <really long boring story snipped   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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Well, when I see somebody in a 90-96 300ZX I certainly wave… Alex

[big snip]

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No that would be a RAV4, CRV, etc… No one knows what the hell it is and what purpose it serves!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

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 The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!" Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep, and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back. Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.  " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!" Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together. "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".  Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds. " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.  " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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Wow, I guess you don’t understand.  I for one have always loved the Wrangler, and I just bought my 98 TJ in June(having no knowledge of the "Jeep Thing" or the waves I would get from fellow Jeepers)  I actually had to ask a friend who owns a YJ about the wave….he told me H wasn’t sure about it either.  As soon as I hit 1500 miles, I was off the pavement, with the top and the door removed.  I have no problem with any brand of 4X4, although I like some less than others  But honestly, I have never seen another group of drivers as friendly with those they don’t know or as willing to help out when someone needs it.  I’ve taken my stock(so far) jeep a few places a little above the level I should, and the one time I got stuck, I was still amazed how well it did. Ok, no more rambling…..I’m sure you’re sick of me by now

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I had a jeep and I loved it thy are good for mud raceing and for what ever ** HAVE A NICE DAY LARRY & KAREN **

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The jeeps I drove for many years were OD, that’s a different thing. The only thing now is Jeeps have become another temporary fad for the brtaibnless yuppies. This too soon will pass and jeeps will go back to being driven by real people who like them for what they are instead of a phoney status symbol. I can wait. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

I agree with this.  The only problem is that it seems a number of the new Jeeps are automatics.  Frankly, that’s sacrilege! — Cheers…Craig — Good manners and bad breath get you nowhere – Elvis Costello — It’s no use to blame the looking glass if your face is awry – S.J. Perelman — People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don’t realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world – Calvin (& Hobbes)

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The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!!

I often get asked if my Miata is a rental since I usually leave the top down unless it is absolutely pouring or I’m in stop/go traffic. Others don’t understand that Jeeps are waterproofed from the get-go, right down to a pair of drain holes in the floorboards! Ever wonder why most CJ and Wrangler variants didn’t even come with carpetting on the floors? Too bad it’s a hassle to take the doors off and front window down now.. (sigh) Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now……

Thank you for stating so eloquently what a lot of us are all about! Btw, I’m lucky enough to be a member of two very distinct ‘families’, the Jeep Family (by way of a lightly modded ‘93 ZJ V8 which has nearly 1/3rd of it’s 62,000 miles off road!) and the Miata club which, at least in off-road deprived Florida, is the more active and certainly more friendly of the two.  I also fall under the helping hand column. Heck, it was only Friday afternoon that I helped a poor lady push her out of gas car half a mile down the road to get it off of the worst part of the freeway.  :) You’re right.. some people just don’t get it. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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damn muskie that was good. i haven`t had such a good laugh in a long time . the thoughts of you playing on the floor with your barbie & ken dolls in jeeps cracked me up. could you entertain us with something about " its a 4×4 thing "  or  " its a harley thing "  or maybe a tough one like " its a man thing " ?  but please dont use your ken & barbie dolls again, i couldn`t stand the laughter. Jim

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<excellent commentary snipped Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing.

Here’s one hint: Why does everyone in a CRV, Rav-4, Tracker, Sidekick, Samurai, etc. always say "We’ll take my Jeep" but no one in a Jeep would ever say "We’ll take my CRV, etc."? There is only one Jeep. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

No, it’s true that you don’t understand but that’s okay. The sheep that you’re referring to might be the demographic majority of Jeep drivers, but those are not the people who wave at each other and say "It’s a Jeep thing."  The "Jeep thing" element, you might find, has more disdain for "sorority Jeeps," "college Jeeps," "soccer mom Jeeps," "street jeeps" and "yuppie Jeeps" than anybody. Some people like F-14s and others would rather ride a P-38 or a P-51. Some people don’t know what a P-38 is, but they’ve seen Top Gun so they think they’re aviation enthusiasts. There are those that want to belong to a group of rugged individualists, and there are those that just do.  (I’ll be modest here as I can, but as a pilot, rock singer, writer, computer geek, civil war reenactor and active environmentalist, I might not be rugged but I’m individualist…) Jeep was the first word I learned to spell, and I promised by grandfather when I was three that I would buy him a Jeep.  Image had nothing to do with it.  My oldest toy, a 1960s Tonka Jeep CJ3B, sits on my desk at work. Raise your hand if you had an infatuation with Nissan when you were three. The thing is, if you go over to the Jeep newsgroup, you’ll see that I’m not an exception…I’m average.  Probably less that average if you pay attention to the complexity of knowledge of their vehicle that some people there have.  You’ll also notice their head spin to look when they see a Willys other other vintage Jeep.  It has nothing to do with the driver. Don’t think about the guy behind the wheel…think of the Jeep. Regardless of the year, a Jeep stripped of its hard top and doors is a classic.  If you’ve ever driven through the country, tackled an ominous "intermediate" 4×4 trail with a stock Jeep or even just cruised the highway with the top off on a sunny day, you understand.  If you’ve ever pulled off the side of the road on an August evening and looked straight up at a meteor shower, you’re getting there.   If you’ve ever yanked a built-up vehicle out of a mudhole or driven your stock Jeep around a 4×4 bogged down on a snow-covered hill, you’re there. Not to trash other 4×4s…I’ve seen old Landcruisers and a heavily-modified Samurai command respect where lesser drivers in Jeeps failed…but why drive a flimsy, overpriced derivative when you can drive the real thing?   There’s just nothing like climbing up into an old CJ and staring down the short nose.  It has the feel of an old warbird…the sound of the engine, the smell of the Jeep, the feeling that you’ve strapped on wheels. It’s not the fault of Jeep drivers that these sturdy classics appear to have gone soft, but while middle America drives around the suburb in the Jeep equivalent of a sports car, those of us die-hard Jeep fans who have driven the new TJs have come to appreciate that under the cloth and plastic interior there is still a bad-ass trail truck that isn’t laden down with mystery parts and strange devices that prevent us from getting under them and making our own modifications. Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing. Chris Gattman              |  "..And the sky is humming,

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I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now…… –jason

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.     " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

Question:

[...] BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott?

Yes, I’d be MORE than happy to. Besides, I picked up a huge container of Albolene during my stay in the US anyway… — | Environmental Toxicology Section | phone: +31 30 535338              | | Utrecht University               | fax:   +31 30 535077              | | the Netherlands                  |                                   |

Response:

[...] I thought it was pretty damn entertaining. I mean, here are all these flyfishers wandering into this newsgroup looking for tips on tying humpies, or instructions on how to fix the zippers on their gravel guards and what do they find: George Gehrke, beloved creator of Gehrke’s Gink, going completely freakin’ batshit in a tirade that would have made Adolph Coors blush. It was great! Bring him back here! He’s got balls the size of church bells, and this newsgroup (indeed, perhaps even the world of angling as we know it) needs more like him!

I don’t think this is entertaining at all. Out of curiosity I sometimes wander into rec.outdoors.fishing.fly (which I abandoned way before there even was a rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, just rec.outdoors.fishing), and time and again fall right into a similar raving, name-calling, rabid flamefest. Enough to make me realize why I switched r.o.f.f. for the And George Gehrke might have balls the size of church bells, but he certainly has a brain the size of the brain of our beloved quarry — or as we more commonly say: the size of a pea. And I will buy no more of his products and will actively pursue that more Europeans act likewise… — | Environmental Toxicology Section | phone: +31 30 535338              | | Utrecht University               | fax:   +31 30 535077              | | the Netherlands                  |                                   |

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The..(lot’s of shortwave radioesque editorial snipped)..Arrrrgh!!! A.J.Thramer

Y’know A.J., it’s not so much your opinion that bugs me, it’s your absolute view that only you, and those who share your views, are right and good.  Also, your narrow minded definition of those who DO something for a living is a load of crap (IMHO, of course). Ross

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [massive snip] I really think I’m wasting my time here. Color me gone. [snip again] I’ve about had enough of this net business anyhow.  My time is better used elsewhere. Color me gone. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Yikes! I think we’ve just witnessed a self proclaimed "Professional Sportsman" go completely postal on the internet… That was the all time worst display of "professionalism" I’ve read in a long while, completely devoid of "sportsmanship". It was, in fact, simply a rant. Confronted with simple truth, he blew his brains out into the ether (not a pretty sight at all)…

I thought it was pretty damn entertaining. I mean, here are all these flyfishers wandering into this newsgroup looking for tips on tying humpies, or instructions on how to fix the zippers on their gravel guards and what do they find: George Gehrke, beloved creator of Gehrke’s Gink, going completely freakin’ batshit in a tirade that would have made Adolph Coors blush. It was great! Bring him back here! He’s got balls the size of church bells, and this newsgroup (indeed, perhaps even the world of angling as we know it) needs more like him!   George, if you’re still out there, switch to decaf, stop sniffing the Gink, turn off the Rush Limbo show, and get a grip…There’s room for you here…

Right on, but skip the "grip" part. And the decaf. Spinolio

Response:

I’d support a tax hike if Billy would use it to get the end of his nose fixed so that it did not look so much like a penis. TimW

Response:

Norm…those six occasions you mention wouldn’t have had any "pork" attached for the democrats agenda by any chance would they ? I believe there may have been a little more to those "occasions" than a vote on the environment. If not I would really like to know, pure speculation on my part but any details would be nice.

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like!

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like!

So this explains why you support Dole: you want a President who lacks any sign of a working penis. Steve

Response:

The second ammendment has absolutelyNOTHING to do with hunting and/or sporting arms. It has everything to do with the right of the people to self protection, whether from the local burgler or the an overactive government that has lost its contact with the people. A flock of killer ducks was not what the framers had in mind.   Does anyone really think that the excise money is 100% apropriated back to sporting causes? If there is even ONE person who believes that I can get you a hot deal on a bridge…..  As an example look up the figures on aircraft use taxes, gasoline road taxes and I am quite sure a list of examples ad nauseum.   Mr Gherke was perhaps a bit vehement in his rhetoric but his facts have been well documented and I for one agree with his message if not exactly his tone. This is turning into a society of citizens who want to ‘feel’ good. Damn the facts and full speed ahead on the good ship lollipop. Sometimes the facts are unpleasant or painful. Bubbas reputation is one of a terrible joke among the international community. Hi duck hunting episode last year made me gag.   IMHO Gherkes right, an opinion shared by most people who make,repair,sell,build or in short DO something to earn a living. Go ahead FEEL good and send the country down a payh that will lead to a place where everyone is a victim and no one can afford to make a living.   I use his products because they are the best available and will happily continue to purchase same!    Election by sound bite!!! Arrrrgh!!! A.J.Thramer

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341   My, My, How mean-spirted we are today, hows the clear cutting going in B.C. ? Did the republicans get into Canada also ?   Just asking..   Harry

I think the original post by Mr. Gehrke was much more "mean spirited" than Tom’s, and at least Tom took some time to flesh out his thoughts instead of posting the all-caps, right-wing bumper sticker that George threw out. Just because you disagree with Tom’s reply, Harry, doesn’t make his message "mean spirited". Still, I’m very glad that Mr. Gehrke came out and stated his political beliefs so bluntly so that those like myself who flatly disagree can now avoid his products. Spinolio

Response:

Henk Verhaar writes:

I don’t think this is entertaining at all. Out of curiosity I sometimes wander into rec.outdoors.fishing.fly (which I abandoned way before there even was a rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, just rec.outdoors.fishing), and time and again fall right into a similar raving, name-calling, rabid flamefest. Enough to make me realize why I switched r.o.f.f. for the And George Gehrke might have balls the size of church bells, but he certainly has a brain the size of the brain of our beloved quarry — or as we more commonly say: the size of a pea. And I will buy no more of his products and will actively pursue that more Europeans act likewise… the size of a pea…don’t really correspond to flaming anyone you……really we don’t

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like! So this explains why you support Dole: you want a President who lacks any sign of a working penis. Steve

   Or law suits associated with the unbridled use of said unit. Where is  L  Bobbit  when you need her !   Harry  " If this is the Bridge to the 21st Century, I hope to God  Kennedy is not driving "

Response:

I wouldn’t support anything Clinton proposes but I do agree his nose looks like a penis. I can’t imagine what his penis looks like! So this explains why you support Dole: you want a President who lacks any sign of a working penis.

they’re both lying. TimW

Response:

Actually the final Senate count was all 50 Republican senators, because after the Ted Williams’ "Dirty Dozen"  article in Fly Rod and Reel went to press, the one Democrat, Sen. Shelby,  showed his true unenvironmental colors and switched to the Republican party. Should we read anything into this? Should this voting record be a factor in how we vote on election day? For me, it will be a major factor.

Response:

[massive snip] I really think I’m wasting my time here. Color me gone.

[snip again] I’ve about had enough of this net business anyhow.  My time is better used elsewhere. Color me gone. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink

Yikes! I think we’ve just witnessed a self proclaimed "Professional Sportsman" go completely postal on the internet… That was the all time worst display of "professionalism" I’ve read in a long while, completely devoid of "sportsmanship". It was, in fact, simply a rant. Confronted with simple truth, he blew his brains out into the ether (not a pretty sight at all)… George, if you’re still out there, switch to decaf, stop sniffing the Gink, turn off the Rush Limbo show, and get a grip…There’s room for you here… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.     Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus            Maynard, Massachusetts < <      Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited"       < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinions expressed herein may not be shared by             my employer, etc…

Response:

I wasn’t aware that the rabid and absurd Mr. Gherke in this group was the same who makes fly floatant.  If this is true (and I’d like confirmation of same), then I second the boycott motion.  This guy is hell-bent on destroying our resources for his own gain; something I don’t want to support.  Instead, I’ll use the environmentally friendly products made by Loon.

Response:

: ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Mr. Gherke: I read with dismay your response to our neighbor from the North.  My disappointment is not with your political views; you are entitled to express those as you wish.  Rather, I take issue with the discourteous and disrespectful way in which you have attacked the President of the United States in this international forum.  You behavior undermines the integrity and honor of our nation.  I shudder to think that the international community regards behavior such as yours as the norm for all Americans. Recently in the fly tying newgroup, you wrote about loyalty to U.S. manufacturers and their products.  You stated, "If Americans will not support Americans, then who will?"  Your conduct in this forum reveals your hypocricy.  No matter what you think of his policies or performance in office, you owe it to your nation and your fellow citizens to accord President Clinton the respect he and his office deserve.  If you dislike his policies or personal conduct, I urge you to exercise your right to vote against him and campaign for his political opponent in a constructive way. But personal attacks that disparage not just the man but the office have no place in civilized political discourse. I do not mean to imply that those who hold views similar to yours have a monopoly on discourtesy.  The legions who attacked President Nixon during his tenure were guilty of the same lack of honor.  More recently, arch-conservatives such as Rush Limbaugh and Bob Grant have helped institutionalize disrespect.  It is not an issue of politics, it is a matter of manners, pure and simple.  Hysterical and personal invective, whether liberal or conservative, sways no one’s opinion.  It simply tells others that Americans are a bunch of boors.  To say nothing of what we are teaching our children! Indeed, I believe that Americans have become fed up with negativism and discourtesy in the political process.  IMO, the best messages to come from the presidential debate held last night in Hartford were the expressions of professional respect and personal amity that each candidate holds for the other.  If you respect Mr. Dole, your chosen candidate, at all, then I suggest you follow his example of courteous and honorable conduct. I also urge you to retract your statements and apologize for the poor behavior you have exhibited in front of thousands of people.  While you are entitled to your policitcal views, you are not entitled to disparage America at the same time that you ask for the loyalty of Americans.  It is for this reason that I intend to join the boycott of your products. Respectfully, Michael Zuch

Response:

Tom, Good post! I won’t buy any Gink or Xink either. An interesting article appeared in the April 1996 issue of Fly Rod & Reel entitled "Out of Touch" by Ted Williams. Information in the article was collated by the National Wildlife Foundation. The article makes for interesting reading, but a portion lists the "dirty dozens" …."those listed are the dirtiest of the dirty; to make this compliation, they had to enter an anti-enviornmental vote on at least five of six occasions."(page 40) The Senate list had 49 Republicans and 1 Democrat. The House had 176 republicans and 13 Democrats. Mr.Dole made the list with five out of a possible of six anti-enviornmental votes. Norm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom, Good post! I won’t buy any Gink or Xink either. An interesting article appeared in the April 1996 issue of Fly Rod & Reel entitled "Out of Touch" by Ted Williams. Information in the article was collated by the National Wildlife Foundation. The article makes for interesting reading, but a portion lists the "dirty dozens" …."those listed are the dirtiest of the dirty; to make this compliation, they had to enter an anti-enviornmental vote on at least five of six occasions."(page 40) The Senate list had 49 Republicans and 1 Democrat. The House had 176 republicans and 13 Democrats. Mr.Dole made the list with five out of a possible of six anti-enviornmental votes. Norm

  As Spinolio has rightly pointed out, the tone of George’s post was none too sweet. I am not condoning how he stated his feelings.  I also think he passed the point of "good taste".   What I do find amusing is the flight by some, on angelic wings, too some self-ordanined "higher ground". It is patently bullfeathers. Your above quoted article was printed on paper from trees, yes folks, trees that most likely where the result of clear cutting, are we all going to cancel our subscription ??  .  Mr Williams myopic views are well known and his cutting down of trees to get them printed is no less " anti-enviromental" than the people he  harpoons editorially.  How much tool oil went down some river to get your reels made?  Did your return the reel ?  How many Dams provide power so you can run your computer ? Do you shut your power off in protest?  The hypocrisy is knee deep here     The very idea that this "Holy" sport is a "non-impact", environmentally PC way of entertainment, is absolute crap on the face of it, and if you think that by partaking in this "hobby" you are somehow an environmentalist, you had better look again.  It is a blood sport that requires one to use, yes use , natural resources to partake. This is a contact sport folks, we impact the river, lake, creek environs  hard and to think we do not is teaching what to our children ?.    I don’t mean to point toward you per say Norm , it is just that there is an aroma about this that makes me gag. George is not the only one who may want to apologize "internationally", what ever that means.   It’s Monday…   Harry

Response:

Fact is Mr. Clinton has been in office for 4 years and some very tough gun regulating laws have been passed…as far as I know no sportsman has had his or her hunting rifle confiscated….second fact…there is no question which Presidential candidate will better protect our natural resources…third fact, the Vietnam war was nothing like WW1 or WW2…to use that war as a litimus test of ones patriotism is absurd…55,000 American men and women died to satisfy the hard ons of politicians and big business…fourth fact..Mr Gehreke is intitled to think what he wants of Bill Clinton, but he should check into the reality a bit more before openning his mouth.  Thanks for your time and bandwidth.

Response:

Snip, snip, snip, snip, snip… I gotta say that I find this ad-hominem, mouth-foaming, pissing-contest sort of post really nauseating on this newsgroup, which I thought was for people who enjoy the __peace and quiet__ that goes along with fly-fishing. Sure, let’s fight for what we hold dear; but calling people filthy names just because they wrote out a carefully considered opinion that doesn’t agree with you, is offputting and embarrassing to see in a newsgroup like this. Just my $.02 CDN. — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, ichthyophile. Toronto, Ontario, Canada. see my illustrations at http://www.mackerel.com/fish/home.html

Response:

: ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

  My, My, How mean-spirted we are today, hows the clear cutting going in B.C. ? Did the republicans get into Canada also ?   Just asking..   Harry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : ——DEFEAT THE DOPE SMOKING, DRAFT DODGING, GUN HATING, COCAIN : SNIFFING, MENA VISITOR (Fly In Site for his Coke Habit In Oklahoma) TWO Well, I’m not certain how this fits into the discussion on the taxation of outdoor equipment Those with short memories and/or brain damage (Mr. Gehrke, perhaps?) sould be reminded that all hunting and fishing gear sold in the US has, for years, been subject to special excise taxes (generally referred to as "Pitman-Robertson" and "Dingell-Johnson", after the legislative sponsors). These taxes have been a notable success, mainly because they are "earmarked" for specific purposes, and don’t go into general revenue. Thus, a proposal for extending the base for these taxes *should* be discussed rationally, not by referring to ‘two-faced lying whore hoppers’. As for "draft dodging", Mr. Gehrke is just out of touch. The Vietnam era was indeed controversial. Those of draft age at that time could fall into four basic categories: 1. agreed with the war, and went – gotta respect these guys 2. harboured major doubts that the war was right, but went anyway – can appreciate the dilemma that these guys faced, gotta respect them too 3. believed the war was wrong, and didn’t go – obviously a group Mr. Gehrke despises, but making a decision of that nature involved significant personal sacrifice for many (living just 6 miles north of the US border, I know how many of my neighbours are US expats) 4. believed that the war was a great thing, provided someone else went; "preserve my ass, but ship out the farm boys and ghetto rats" ; these pond scum include Dan Quayle (whose daddy bought him a postion in the Guard) and Rush Limbaugh (whose family hired a specialist to come up with a medical problem that the army doc couldn’t find); no way anyone should respect these turds I’d respect Mr. Gehrke’s disgust with the folks in group 3 if I didn’t suspect he was kissing the asses of the sleazeballs in group 4. : VOTE DOLE IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR GUNS AND YOUR HERITAGE. Of course, in the event that the Republicans are too successful (i.e. Dole in the White House, with the Newtzies still running the House), the question becomes academic – yes, you’ll be able to own as many guns as you want, but there will be nothing to hunt (and nowhere to go to hunt). And, if the water’s unsafe to drink, there ain’t gonna be a lot of fishing around either. This isn’t a Democrat/ Republican issue (respect a lot of folks on both sides) or a liberal/conservative issue (as above), but a *sane/insane* issue. Now, I guess the next major question is : I’ve read more posts from Mr. Gehrke than I really want to, given that his style (rabid) and his orientation (screw the environment, I wanna go fishing) are so extreme. Why does Mr. Gehrke, who owes his livelihood to the existence of a healthy environment, take such anti-environmental stands? BTW, my fly vest contains about a half-bottle each of "Gink" and "Xink". They’ll be the last I’ll buy. Anyone else want to join this boycott? 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

It is evident that a Canadian, who may have harbored the idea of draft dodgers isn’t anyone I care to do business with anyways. That a Canadian has the reasons to justify why Americans should be draft dodgers, such as Slick Willie Clinton as opposed to the WWII Combat Soldier that is now running against  him, Bob Dole, I regard as a vacilating mind that is concerned about his own best interests and not that of his neighbors who were willing to die for his views, as wrong as they are. So, if you want to start a boycott, be my guest.  But don’t go around saying that I’m against good environmental stands and taxing, taxing, taxing is NOT the solution.  Not being responsible in defending the general public AGAINST POLITICAL TAXING IDEAS SUCH AS YOURS, would be criminal.  Not fighting the U.S. Forest Service with their sick plans to destroy our last remaining National Virgin Forests, is pure laziness and apathy.  My passion is against people who hold opposite points of view to these premises.  My record regarding my life long fight to uphold and prevent the special interests from destroying what remains for our childrens tomorrows is well documented.  I take special offense to your stupid, shallow, and outright filthy lies and acquisations to the contrary.  It is my company and my dollars and my staff and our persistant efforts over decades of work that have fought the good fight. Where the hell do you get off telling everybody that I have anti-environmental stands?  I spend thousands of dollars of Gink money every years supporting Trout Clubs, Many Chapers of T.U. the Federation of Fly Fishermen, Political candiates who care about your outdoor inventories . . . and because I don’t want the slick politicians taxing bikers, camping gear . . . you assume the worse?  You’re a very ill-informed, close-minded, selfish sonofabitch! In a lifetime of blood, sweat and tears, of writing letters, of digging in and putting my money where my mouth is, where were you in America? I’ll tell you where.  No where!  Never, in tens of thousands of dollars of donations to preserving, protecting and defending the enviornment has anyone . . . ANYONE . . . ever even said, "thank you". Well, I don’t want anyone’s thanks.  I haven’t given my entire life to the great American Outdoors to solicite anyones ‘thanks’.  I don’t need it.  Don’t want it. But you sir.  Are a pompous, ignorant person who knows NOTHING of what he is talking about. So, had you not snipped or had the full benefit of the entire thread of where our original distain for Slick Willie Clinton had started, you would have realized the justification for calling this liar of a President down for what he is.  Dishonest, unhonorable, and a yuppie who has not served this country, who is now a President that has not stopped the clear cutting timber barons, nor the dam builders, nor any of the rape that continues in outdoor America by special interests, even as I speak and you listen. I really think I’m wasting my time here. Color me gone. Do with my products what you want.  They still are the world’s best that you can buy.  If you want to go second class, that is your choice.  We have always appreciated our supporters business.  But if you think you can black-mail me . . . think again. At least you didn’t do business with a compromiser.  They will say anything to fall in line with such as yourself. I won’t. Tight lines always in the fond memories my products have given you. That, to me is the main satisfaction I’ve had on your life.  I’ve given you the best that is in me.  You can never that away.  Its too late. You want to take prisoners.  I don’t want any. I’ve about had enough of this net business anyhow.  My time is better used elsewhere. Color me gone. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink

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Question:

Not entirely true.  Maine allows flyfishing, catch and release, is some of it’s waters.  You need to get a law book and check.  It offers some great fall fishing if you do not mind catch and release. Regards……

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Fishing seasons are lame. I’ve never lived in a state where you couldn’t go out and fish ( practicing C/R of course) in the dead of winter if you so desired. In these days and times and with the extensive licsenceing (sp?) fees collected and with ever tightening fisheries management, you’d think I could rip some lip any old time I wanted. Go west Connie. Maine isn’t good enough for you. (of course I’ve never been to Maine, though I almost honeymooned there) you can fish 24/7/365.

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Fishing seasons are lame. I’ve never lived in a state where you couldn’t go out and fish ( practicing C/R of course) in the dead of winter if you so desired. In these days and times and with the extensive licsenceing (sp?) fees collected and with ever tightening fisheries management, you’d think I could rip some lip any old time I wanted. Go west Connie. Maine isn’t good enough for you. (of course I’ve never been to Maine, though I almost honeymooned there) you can fish 24/7/365.

Actually there are several rivers in Me. where you can C&R artificials only for landlocked salmon. Also, in Sept. the striper fishing is often great, and in October & November there are sea run browns that put their sweetwater cousins to shame (and taste fantastic).Not that I want to encourage any MORE people to come up…I’ll be lucky to make it home tonite as it is :-                         jc

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We are going to Maine in October 3 – 8  and I was wondering what kind of fly fishing can be done that time of year if any and what the rules are? We plan to go to Acadia  and to Baxter State Park.   Any thing would be helpful.                           Thanks                                Connie

Connie,         The truth of the matter is that you can fish in Maine after Oct 1st. When you get here check out the infamous 96-97 open water fishing bible, and you’ll notice numerous ponds, lakes and streams open to fishing after Oct 1st. to the 31st., but all are catch and release during that month. All are at least artificial lure only, and some are fly-fishing only. There are a couple of rivers open all year long that are catch and release only such as the Nezinscot River in Turner. One of the most productive rivers open under this regulation will probably be the East Outlet of the Kennebec river starting at Moosehead lake. On the Kennebec from Skowhegan to Augusta there is a two-fish limit on Salmon and trout all year long. Hope you have a great time in Maine. Dave P.S. Watch out for Moose.

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We are going to Maine in October 3 – 8  and I was wondering what kind of fly fishing can be done that time of year if any and what the rules are? We plan to go to Acadia  and to Baxter State Park.   Any thing would be helpful.                            Thanks                                 Connie

Response:

Connie, I hate to be the one to rain on your parade…but the fishing season in Maine closes as of September 30.  You will be relegated to leaf peeping and moose gazing.    Enjoy,    Gerry

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Question:

Anyone know of a mail-order source for 8 millimeter diameter pom-poms to use in making egg pattern flies?  (I believe 5 are smaller and 10 larger than the real thing – a king salmon egg.) Also – what are favorite colors for these things?   Thanks.

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I’ve bought white 8mm pom poms at a fabric store called Jo-Ann Fabrics. I’ve used RIT dyes to get colors such as chartreuse and Orgeon Cheese (be sure to use a vinegar bath after dying to make it colorfast).  These two colors have been the most effective for me on the Salmon River in NY.  I then insert the hook through the pom pom, making sure it enters perpendicular to the inner thread.  A small bit of thread wrap in front of and behind the pom pom holds it in place.  A hot glue gun will do the same, but it gets a bit messy.  Good luck.

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Anyone know of a mail-order source for 8 millimeter diameter pom-poms to use in making egg pattern flies?  (I believe 5 are smaller and 10 larger than the real thing – a king salmon egg.) Also – what are favorite colors for these things?  

Hi- Ben Franklin’s craft stores carry pom poms and will mail order. Get the white ones and dye them to your specs. Purple, lime, flame and peach will round out your selection. Don’t ask why steelhead and trout like these colors . . . just remember they do not percieve colors as humans do (they see UV and IR as well as the colors we see). 3mm is perfect trout and kokanee size roe. I’d guess 8mm is king salmon size but honestly don’t know and I doubt if the fish care.    Tight lines, Ralph —

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Just to let you know – those seemingly fancy eggs with protruding mylar tags are available in most of the craft stores way up here in Canada, but I have only seen them in 10mm. Being something of a beginner, I first purchased these lettle gems from a tackle shop, and could have bought an equivilant weight of gold for the same price. In the craft shop they are 5cents each and available in all sorts of colours – which means that if you are slow off the mark, purple will be the only colour remaining. Good Luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of a mail-order source for 8 millimeter diameter pom-poms to use in making egg pattern flies?  (I believe 5 are smaller and 10 larger than the real thing – a king salmon egg.) Also – what are favorite colors for these things?   Orange and peach.  Those hand-tied from glow-bug yarn have a nicer, translucent look than those made from pom-poms. — -Wayne Trzyna I’d be <amazed if chinooks were selective enough to hesitate to take a 10mm pompom because it was 2 mm larger than the real thing.  Go with the 10’s if that’s what you can find.  Be sure you check the local craft and fabric stores.  If they have them, you’ll save a bundle.  At least you would here in Oregon, where you’re fishing egg flies strictly along the bottom, and catching rocks a lot.  What I haven’t seen, other than in fly shops, though, are the pompoms with the tiny bits of protruding mylar. If that’s what you really want, I’m afraid I have nothing to offer. Tight lines, Greg Metcalfe

– << Allan Hyggen   << <<          <<

Response:

Just to let you know – those seemingly fancy eggs with protruding mylar tags are available in most of the craft stores way up here in Canada, but

Note:  I conducted an off-the-cuff study one day, with some Alaskan Rainbows feeding behind spawning chum salmon.  The rainbows would approach the "fancy protruding mylar" egg patterns, scope ‘em out, then turn away. But they would readily take similar pom-poms without the protruding mylar. I think the protruding mylar catches more fishermen than fish. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Note:  I conducted an off-the-cuff study one day, with some Alaskan Rainbows feeding behind spawning chum salmon.  The rainbows would approach the "fancy protruding mylar" egg patterns, scope ‘em out, then turn away. But they would readily take similar pom-poms without the protruding mylar.

…and they would take eggs hand-tied from glow-bug yarn more readily than either type of pom-pom. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Question:

I have to take an enforced trip to Madeira in January.  It’s been described to me as a holiday. Is it worth taking a rod? — Steve

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:I have to take an enforced trip to Madeira in January.  It’s been : described to  me as a holiday. : Is it worth taking a rod? : — : Steve No, Steve, this is terrible news. Drag your tired body down there. Never mind the gorgeous weather – you’ll survive. And the fishing – oh dear – but it’s not worth your time. It’s ALWAYS worth taking a rod. D.F.

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