Question:

ROFF became a sort of sociology experiment for me.

I commend you. What a refreshing and clever idea! Please let us know what hypotheses you were attempting to theorize. Here are a few of my own hypotheses that your little experiment appears to confirm: (1) If you come across as a loser on USENET, people will naturally assume you are that way in real life. Why wouldn’t they? (2) Occam’s Razor applies to USENET. In other words, if the simplest explanation for your behavior is that you are a dishonest a–hole, then that’s how you’ll be perceived despite whatever more complicated explanation you might provide. If clear evidence points to a case of assumed identity, people are going to see it as such regardless of protracted denials. (3) Deception, dishonesty, and remorselessness are far less tolerated on USENET than are poor taste, ill humor, poor grammar, off-topic posting, or lack of knowledge about the subject. Again, I congratulate you on your experiment and I await the report of your findings. It’s quite refreshing to have been the unknowing pawn in not one, but *two* sociology experiments over the last few days. It’s good to know that my time spent on ROFF is not simply leisurely idleness. Unfortunately, statistically speaking, your attempts to "get the group riled up" have gone in vain because out of the hundreds of regular readers of this group, only a very few have even bothered to respond to you–and of those, I can’t think of any right now how have appeared at all to be "riled up" at you. For example, if the use of the F word is any indication of riled-upness (maybe it is, maybe it isn’t) then it would appear that–at least in the threads in which you have participated–you are by far the most riled. Does self-riling pleasure you? –Steve

Response:

I do regret that. My apology was an attempt to salvage that. But, what is done is done, and, boy, is this ever done…

Now you’ve got me confused–don’t worry too much, it happens. You just said that your participation on ROFF was a little sociology experiment (great idea, BTW) and that you couldn’t understand why anyone thought you cared what they said. I’m paraphrasing here, so please correct me if I’m mistaken. But it now appears that you regret your behavior. Why? Or are you still experimenting–you clever dog! Man, you’re gonna get us so confused and riled up that we just won’t know what to expect next. This is a wild ride for a naive Western boy like me, but I sure am excited at the prospects of helping you gather your data. –Steve

Response:

Ahhh, the grudge maven… When was the last time, to the nearest month, that I tried to sell something, feebly or otherwise.

Well, you’ve been feebly trying to sell us that story about how you didn’t post to ROFF on behalf of someone named Lindsey ever since it happened. But that shouldn’t be counted against you as salesmanship because nobody’s buying it. –Steve

Response:

Ahhh, the grudge maven… When was the last time, to the nearest month, that I tried to sell something, feebly or otherwise.

Part of your sociology experiment?  Nice try.  But your message brought more than a couple chuckles, I’m sure.  You can try to salve your pride any number of clever ways.  The fact is, for most of us, this is a means of social interaction, whereby we’ve made many real life friends.  All it requires is a modicum of sincerity and integrity, desire to fly fish, and making the effort to travel.  Even those who haven’t traveled have at least the sincerity and integrity part down.  I can (and have) made transactions with a number of people here that I haven’t met.  Buying a rod from you would be laughable. You wanna try and convince us that other than how you behave around here, in real life you’ve got a… well… real life?  What kind of malcontent loser would defend himself like that?  You think you’re toying with us?  Believe whatever you need to.  In the mean time, I’ll be enjoying camaraderie and friendship with these folks, even if I don’t see them for long periods at a time.  Unplug your skull from your anus and you’d realize it’s worth it. It’s too bad you keep buzzing around like a deer fly, but that’s life in the great outdoors.

Response:

Now, tell me who doesn’t ‘get it’…

You don

Question:

I’m a farmer from the midwest, and I have seen this behavior many times before.  In a hoglot (it can happen with cattle also) when one pig is picked on and shows too much weakness, often many other pigs will jump in and attack it.  They will often continue until they kill the weak pig. Now the article is gone so I cannot even read it, much less respond to it.  Usually when something stinks, it needs to be aired out.

Response:

FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.

Exactly right. I have been hearing a lot about how MC ‘censored’ Ole Rupe’s article when, in fact, FAOL censored any and all opposing comments, and based on Deanna’s reply to MC, she still doesn’t see why this was wrong. If opposing views had been allowed from the beginning, this whole debate would have been conducted on FAOL, where it belonged. Just imagine if Time magazine, for instance, published this article and refused to acknowledge any opposing views, but published a weak disclaimer a few issues later. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down" ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league? Isn’t that overkill?   I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

He incited killing people based on race.   Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

He would be the last person I would invite on a hunting trip bc.

Response:

Folks Racists and their closet brethren are uniformly cowards and depend on easy prey and a wimpy defense. When they get challenged they generally run for cover. When they get their ass kicked they cry foul. When they are on top they kill and incite others to kill.  Civilized people who refuse to accept the inconvenience of the fight are walking shaky ground. Anyone feeling sorry for these assholes might try to consider how  Native American kids who accessed Ole Rupe’s racist shit felt. One of the most important lessons of the 20th Century is that racists and Nazis will use the hood at night, the gas chamber when they can get away with it and a cynical intellectualized stance when it suits them, and further, that the only effective way to fight them is to make them pay a high price for their bullshit. Good riddance, F*** Rupe and the horse he rode in on Dave

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?<

Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

Response:

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

I am not condoning censorship.  FAOL made the decision to publish the article unedited in its original form.  The article would have been just as effective with out the racial overtones.  FAOL made a public relations mistake by censoring opposing points of view in the public message forums and guest book.  It was only after this censorship took place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article. bc.

Response:

It was only after this censorship took

place, did I start my letter campaign making sponsors and organizations like the Anti-Defamation League aware of that article.< Geez, bc, the anti-defamation league?   Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass. Funniest thing, the author apparently doesn’t know anything about his subject, first-hand.  "If I lived" kinda makes you wonder about what he really would do if he did live there.  My guess would be hide under a rock.

Response:

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy?< Who the fuck is the author?   And that’s not the point, anyway.  However, valiant ROFFians have provided me with this "tempest in a teapot"  piece of shit. Waste of good bandwidth to even discuss it.

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW. — Charlie…

Response:

I believe the whole thing started because Mike didn’t want articles he

had written in the same ‘publication’ as that one, which is his right as an author. You were complaining that the result of his actions deprived you of your opportunity to read the article. FWIW.< In spite of the recent Ct of Appeals decision, whether or not it’s his right is still up in the air IMO.  But yeah, I was complaining about that.   Now that I’ve read it, I wish I had had the opportunity to read it BEFORE I got into this thread.  And that’s the closest thing to an apology anyone is going to get from me. <g

Response:

Isn’t that overkill?  I don’t know why any responsible publisher (even on the net) would publish such crap but I guess I would just desub.  Seems like everbody wants to censor.  What a pain in the ass.

Good point Harry. I raised a stink precisely because I do appreciate FAOL and have no desire to "unsubscribe". If the publication were of no value and little read, there would have been no outcry. I said as much to Deanna in reply to an email, I hope she takes it to heart. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I do not regret any of my actions, and would do the same thing again if necessary.  I do regret the damage caused to the site, or to people connected with it, but this is in no way my responsibility.  This is purely the result of their own actions. The decision to close is up to the publishers alone, and I have no influence in the matter.

Mike certainly doesn’t need validation from me, but I do agree with the way he handled the whole mess. He removed himself from a publication he didn’t agree with, and told people why. The situation got a bit excessive, but the publisher’s actions and responses seemed to be as bizarre as the author’s, including shutting down the site and the ‘enjoy your victory’ bullshit. Sounds like one bad association (Rupe, Deanna, the public, and Mike) just waiting to flame out…and it did. — Jeff Cook http://www.cookstudios.com Washington DC area

Response:

What’s with this "closure" of FAOL? Does that mean they’re shutting it down altogether? Why? Is this a case of the publisher "eating worms"? Will she have second thoughts? Or have all her sponsors deserted her? Tune in at 11. Seriously, folks, this is what they call a perverse result. I don’t think anyone in ROFF who was offended by the article wanted FAOL to cease to exist. Maybe a letter-writing campaign to their ex-sponsors along these lines would be called for: "I am satisfied by FAOL’s apology and retraction of the offensive article. Please continue your sponsorship of this fine web site." Not that it will do much good. One more thing. Before you start letter-writing campaigns to sponsors when you see something you don’t like on an otherwise excellent website, think about perverse effects. Wait at least of few days. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

HR, Like a spoiled little boy, he demanded that they return his ball.  If you don’t do what I want, I’ll take my ball (those precious "articles") and go home.

The analogy to the spoiled little boy and his ball is something of a stretch.  Mike’s contributions were more than a ball.  They could easily be construed as an endorsement of the site and, once the site stepped over a line to which Mike is sensitive, it’s understandable that Mike would no longer want his name associated with that site. Thanks to Mike and others of his ilk, I have not read the article.  

Mike and his ilk aren’t the only problem, here.  As I understand it, their opposing views were censored before they took additional steps. We can now only speculate how things might have turned out had opposing views been given prompt and equally prominent exposure. But even if I had, and found it racist,  I would not have demanded it’s removal.

I also wish the whole affair had been handled differently.  You may recall that I was one who opposed Mr. G’s remarks about Indians/fishing on ROFF.

Sorry.  I didn’t see those posts… But noooo, apparently I and others are not to be allowed that privilege.

It doesn’t seem possible that you believe the site in question is/was the only place on earth you could read that article.  Assuming Rupe is willing, it may be posted elsewhere.  You might even hunt Rupe up and request a copy if you’re as passionate as you sound about wanting to read it yourself.  It might even be that one of the article’s antagonists grabbed a copy and could email it to you.  But you gotta ask. The CENSORS have had their way.

I’m not arguing that point.  As I said before, I had concerns about the "censorship" aspect of the issue.  Censorship, though, isn’t always a dirty word.  You could say that I censored Larry Flint by keeping Hustler Magazine out of my house.  There were kids around. Was that kind of "censorship" a bad thing? We’ve long had laws on the books to discourage uncivil speech in public places.  It hasn’t been that long ago that a dunked boater was busted and prosecuted for cussing up a blue streak around women and kids.  Certainly you can argue that such laws infringe freedom of speech. But when you can walk into any supermarket and run a good chance of finding yourself — and your kids — in the checkout line behind somebody wearing a tee-shirt emblazoned with all manner of obscenites — you have to wonder… If we now find ourselves so enlightened that such laws are an embarrasment, what remedies do you propose for those who prefer not to be accosted by uncivil speech?  Are we to reduce them to staying indoors and keeping their mouths shut?  If that’s the answer, haven’t we censored them? One of my points to which you didn’t respond was the issue of all of us using our influence to affect the world around us.  What I’m wondering about is something like this: Remember when the Exxon Valdez ran aground?  Remember Exxon’s grudging responses?  Suppose somebody had succeeded in motivating a large number of Exxon customers to protest by buying their petrol elsewhere. Would that have been dirty pool or economic terrorism? Don’t us mere citizens have a right to prod and push our world about to shape it into something we think would be better? The way I see it, freedom of speech is a door that swings both ways. That is, say what you like, but be prepared for others to respond by saying what _they_ like.  And sometimes they say it _very_ loudly. Which is what Mike did. Wes Peterson LexCraft Data Services

Response:

I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

Blaine, First of all, country of origin as nothing to do with expressing you’re own point of view. Mike did not put himself in charge of anything.  He has the legal right to express his opinion.  The publishers of the site made a business decision to put that article unedited on their commercial site.  The article would have been just as effective without those comments. When opposing points of view were expressed, they were quickly censored and removed from the public areas of the site.  Their justification was that they were off topic and inflammatory. If I go to a bookstore and pick up the latest issue of a fly fishing magazine, I can make a fair assumption that the articles enclosed will contain material relevant to the sport.  That the articles will not be intertwined with racial comments, incitement to kill someone and that 30/06 rifle rounds is inexpensive.  The same assumption should be made of an online magazine dedicated to fly-fishing. As far as I am concerned the staff of FAOL could have handled the entire situation better. The article in its original form had no business being on a commercial venue like FAOL. Based on the responses that I have received from sponsors when I sent out my email, I could surmise that they agree.   You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance bc.

Response:

Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous

viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ?< I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance< I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference. Peter

Response:

You and FAOL lack one thing: tolerance<

I certainly have no tolerance for censorship. Had I been able to read the article perhaps I would have reacted differently, but thanks to all you "right thinkers" I do not have that opportunity. Expressing an opinion and attempting to force other expressions off the net are two different things.  I trust you can see that.

Response:

I have no knowledge of what was written and thanks to you and others like you, I will apparently have no opportunity to.  What I do oppose is censorship in any way shape or form.   No doubt you will live to censor another day.  And I’m glad I distressed you.  Certainly you have distressed me.

Why don’t you just email the author and ask for a copy? — Charlie…

Response:

Would you like a copy of it?  I kept a copy for reference.<

Thanks, Peter but Christian sent me one.   Is THIS really what all the fuss is about? "With regard to native American fishing rights I hold the politically incorrect view that the only good Indian is a dead Indian. If I lived  where they gill netted steelhead I would be on the 6 p.m. news. Uncle Sam taught me how to remove problems at 300 meters." Stupid?  Yes.  Disgusting that someone would put this onto the net (or anyplace, for that matter)?  Absolutely.   I disagree totally with the ideas expressed there.  Would I bitch about them?  Hell yes.   Do I believe that Rupe (or whatever the hell his name is) has a right to express them.  Yes, I do.   On a fly fishing site?  While I disagree violently with him, his comments are related to fishing.  So why not?  It’s not like his ideas, however unpalatable, are apt to have the impact of, say, shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, now are they. With all the horrible examoles of racism that we see and have seen, frankly, this appears to me to be a tempest in a teapot. There are a lot better ways of fighting evil than writing about it on the net. But then, we’re writers, not doers, eh?

Response:

<long "final" rant snipped I have always had a pretty good opinion of you Mike but I must say that I understand now why you live in Germany.  Who the fuck put you in charge of anything, much less in charge of deciding what should and should not appear on the net?  You have come out of this looking like a pretentious asshole IMO. But now I guess you can write some of your famous doggerel and everything will be all right.

You are entitled to your opinion, good or bad.  Your insulting generalised implications of why I live where I live are unnecessary, unfortunate, unfounded, unworthy and not a little distressing. I am not in charge of anything at all. I simply voiced a perfectly normal protest at a particularly crass example of racism, in a place and under circumstances which where extremely upsetting. Your opinion of my person is also not particularly nice, but you have every right to voice it. I will doubtless survive nevertheless. Presumably you think its OK for people to voice their hatred and poisonous viewpoints, but not OK to do anything actively to oppose them ? Let

Question:

I’d like to cast my vote for stronger enforcement of the anti-snagging laws.  It is still going on, although no weighted treble hooks are in evidence.   Personally, I have all kinds of cute ideas for laws that would make lifting ineffective, but without enforcement, such laws would be meaningless.  Personally, I’ve spent four days on the Salmon River this year and have yet to see any DEC enforcement, or hear of any arrests. I’ve seen plenty of lifting going on, even in the flyfishing sections of the River. I’d also like to see better and more "real-time" reporting of river conditions.  A bad report might keep me from coming up on a given day, but no accurate reporting whatsoever leaves me with a level of risk, given my 5 hour drive to get to the River.  It might be good if someone were to post the current Niagara Mohawk release reports somewhere.  I’d like to see Jim Rusher at Whittakers do this, since he seems to have the best "river-oriented" site, but I understand that the cost of Niagara Mohawk’s 900 number could get a bit out of control…maybe a Chamber of Commerce opportunity lies in here. Bob Davis

Response:

writes: Bob,

    Thanks for your comments. The C of C would be hard pressed to fund the purchase of a subscription to the Waterline # and I’m also sure that Waterline as a business would be less than pleased. You’r right though, timely water level conditions are of the utmost importance.     I’d be happy to share any info I have on conditions, etc. as I look out my back window at the river.     Today, the rains continued resulting in continued big water. My folks landed two rainbows in the upper fly zone, saw lots of fish in Trout Brook and saw plenty of snagging (unfortunately) in Oswego.     Regards,     Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

I saw game wardens a few times this year on the river but they never seem to wander far from the parking areas.On the oswego river you see more wardens because it is a very easily accessable place to fish.They arent any more thrilled about going to work than average person so they really arent going to walk all that far to see if people are lifting farther up the river or not.I have seen many river guides lift fish and hand the rod right to there clients and of course the lifted fish was kept.Until we fisherman lose the "its going to die after spawning anyways"attitude the snagging will never stop.Maybe we should start a donate a roper program to help out the dec..

Response:

Bill — Because NYS has finally banned snagging, I have started to fish the Salmon River, and therefore patronize local restaurants, tackle shops, etc. In my six visits so far this year, I have not seen any evidence of law enforcement. I have, however, noticed a lot of anglers who have foul-hooked chinooks and have been very negligent in their releases. Many do not bother to revive fish after they remove their hooks. In my opinion, more law enforcement and angler education is needed to help the Salmon River become a truly great fishery. Moreover, the Chamber might want to explore ways to help clean the River banks and trails from the mess of liter and old line. Such an effort would greatly enhance the Salmon River’s image and popularity among influential anglers. Lastly, the DEC should be given alot of credit for finally making a stand against snagging/lifting. Showing appreciation and support to them would probably go a long way in helping the future of the Salmon River and the people who make a living from it. PS: I refuse to patronize any establishment in the Pulaski-area that has fought against the ban on snagging (MacDonald’s, etc.). Bob Elliott, Rochester, NY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At its next meeting in late November, the Pulaski/Eastern Shore Chamber of Commerce will be discussing the law enforcement detail here on the Salmon River. As president, I’d be interested in hearing about any FIRST HAND experiences you may have had this year. I’ll use your contributions as a springboard to open discussion. Thanks in advance, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

At its next meeting in late November, the Pulaski/Eastern Shore Chamber of Commerce will be discussing the law enforcement detail here on the Salmon River. As president, I’d be interested in hearing about any FIRST HAND experiences you may have had this year. I’ll use your contributions as a springboard to open discussion. Thanks in advance, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

Response:

Question:

It was interesting to see the view that a small rod was best for small streams went unchallenged.  Most of my regular fly fishing is carried out on brooks that an athlete could jump over.  I own rods as short as 7 foot but rarely fish with any rod shorter than 8 foot 6 inches.  In fact prefer a 9 foot rod.  The extra length has been vital many times to push fish away from the near bank and all the tree roots and other hazards.  Casting is easier with the longer rod especially if it is important to keep back from the water’s edge.  Some times a full cast can be avoided with the longer rod by catapulting the fly from the fingers after bending the rod back like a ballista by pulling the line.  Of course it is possible to manage with a short rod but I don’t think it is actually better to fish with. richard

Response:

It was interesting to see the view that a small rod was best for small streams went unchallenged.  Most of my regular fly fishing is carried out

I think the main thing is to have a rod "soft" enough to handle short lines.  This is more important than length of the rod.  I have a very soft 7 and 8 foot, and both work on very small streams, while a stiff Lommis 8 foot rod is useless (in a confined area). Just my .02 worth. PMH

Response:

Question:

Hello all- I want to relate the experience I had my first time……flyfishing. (You were expecting something else?)   Last winter I ran across a Martin 6/7wt rod & reel at Target. It’s not my first choice for a place to buy fishing gear, but at $20 on clearance I figured I couldn’t go wrong. I upgraded the reel to a Martin 63SS (also on clearance for $10), and then, after much consideration, fitted it w/ an Air-cell WF line.  I already had a float tube and have been enjoying that using my spinning rod. So finally, The Long Winter was over, the staircase I promised my wife for Christmas 3 yrs ago was built, and I hit the water last Sunday (5/18). There’s a small, maybe 80 acre, spring fed lake near my home in East Central MN. that I like to go to….full of Bass, crappie, sunnies, and a few northerns. Just before I was about to take off a wind kicked up out of the N/NE about 15-20 mph, which I figured wouldn’t bode well for a novice, so I went with the idea of probably just practicing casting, maybe staying for an hour or so. ……Four or five hours later, I figured I better quit because my hand was starting to cramp up. I haven’t had that much fun in a LONG time! I think I might be an addict…..I didn’t catch but three fish, none of them wighing much more than the fly, or wooly bugger, or whatever it was I had tied on, but the freedom of the tube along with the lightness of the tackle is, I believe, my kind of sport. I’m already thinking of upgrading again.  Do I have a disease? Thanks for listening.  Just thought I’d share my good times. Later, Pete

Response:

Peter, Sorry to say, but yes you are hooked. It’s a slow, painful, yet incredibly enjoyable death and the support groups are a blast!!! Welcome to the ring and Fish On Fly Boy!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello all- I want to relate the experience I had my first time……flyfishing. (You were expecting something else?)   Last winter I ran across a Martin 6/7wt rod & reel at Target. It’s not my first choice for a place to buy fishing gear, but at $20 on clearance I figured I couldn’t go wrong. I upgraded the reel to a Martin 63SS (also on clearance for $10), and then, after much consideration, fitted it w/ an Air-cell WF line.  I already had a float tube and have been enjoying that using my spinning rod. So finally, The Long Winter was over, the staircase I promised my wife for Christmas 3 yrs ago was built, and I hit the water last Sunday (5/18). There’s a small, maybe 80 acre, spring fed lake near my home in East Central MN. that I like to go to….full of Bass, crappie, sunnies, and a few northerns. Just before I was about to take off a wind kicked up out of the N/NE about 15-20 mph, which I figured wouldn’t bode well for a novice, so I went with the idea of probably just practicing casting, maybe staying for an hour or so. ……Four or five hours later, I figured I better quit because my hand was starting to cramp up. I haven’t had that much fun in a LONG time! I think I might be an addict…..I didn’t catch but three fish, none of them wighing much more than the fly, or wooly bugger, or whatever it was I had tied on, but the freedom of the tube along with the lightness of the tackle is, I believe, my kind of sport. I’m already thinking of upgrading again.  Do I have a disease? Thanks for listening.  Just thought I’d share my good times. Later, Pete

David726 E-mail for further assistance to:

Response:

: Do I have a disease? Oh poor poor Pete!  My pitty goes out to you, and I understand because the same thing has happened to me in the last year. I have it so bad that the other day my wife said I should just go to Alaska for 6 months fishing and get it all out of my system.  Her thought was that then I could come back and be cured of my angling, and recently fly fishing disease. I explained to her that would be equivelant to sending a cocaine addict to Columbia expecting him to come back clean. Does anybody know what the fish in Alaska will be hitting on over the next 6 months.  ;-) — Kevin W. Tharp http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/4351

Response:

Hello all- I want to relate the experience I had my first time……flyfishing. (You were expecting something else?)  

Well sort of.  We get a lot of these, and I was hoping beyond hope that maybe it was in fact something else.  Oh well. Last winter I ran across a Martin 6/7wt rod & reel at Target. It’s not my first choice for a place to buy fishing gear, but at $20 on clearance I figured I couldn’t go wrong. I upgraded the reel to a Martin 63SS (also on clearance for $10), and then, after much consideration, fitted it w/ an Air-cell WF line.  I already had a float tube and have been enjoying that using my spinning rod.

Well you could go wrong, but what the hell! So finally, The Long Winter was over, the staircase I promised my wife for Christmas 3 yrs ago was built, and I hit the water last Sunday (5/18). There’s a small, maybe 80 acre, spring fed lake near my home in East Central MN.

Whoa! Kewl!  Where in Mn pray tell? that I like to go to….full of Bass, crappie, sunnies, and a few northerns. Just before I was about to take off a wind kicked up out of the N/NE about 15-20 mph, which I figured wouldn’t bode well for a novice, so I went with the idea of probably just practicing casting, maybe staying for an hour or so.

Sounds just like MN. ……Four or five hours later, I figured I better quit because my hand was starting to cramp up. I haven’t had that much fun in a LONG time! I think I might be an addict…..I didn’t catch but three fish, none of them wighing much more than the fly, or wooly bugger, or whatever it was I had tied on, but the freedom of the tube along with the lightness of the tackle is, I believe, my kind of sport. I’m already thinking of upgrading again.  Do I have a disease?

Yes.  Most likely.  Some doofus around here might make some lame reference to Traver’s Trout Madness, but not me.  It probably has something to do with minnesota.  Long, round vowels.  Ending sentences with prepositions.  Inclination towards bland foodstuffs. Polka Music (God I hope you don’t live near Sturgeon Lake:-)).  Mosquitos. Calling creeks cricks.  Grain Belt.  The Vikings. Letting an NHL hockey team go like that.  It’s a disease all right, and you have it.   And don’t think that FFing is going to save from it – nope you’re f__king doomed pal. One thing will help, and that doesnt include NEVER GOING TO THE WHITE RIVER NEAR IRON RIVER WISC.  That won’t help you one iota.  So don’t bother going there.  Stay away.  Tell your friends so they go and leave all the good water to you. Thanks for listening.  Just thought I’d share my good times.

Always up for that. </chaz

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Like a Sturgeon.. oh oh… Hooked for the very first time… Like a stur-ur-ur-urgeon… I feel its heartbeat… through my line… I’ll stop now… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

There is.. a fish ..upon a dish.. They call the rising trout… it’s often seen by those who are keen.. but not by those who shout… — Colin J. McPherson B.Eng. Design and Structures Group, School of Mechanical Engineering, University of Bath,Bath,U.K.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like a Sturgeon.. oh oh… Hooked for the very first time… Like a stur-ur-ur-urgeon… I feel its heartbeat… through my line… I’ll stop now… — TimW Halfordian Golfer There is.. a fish ..upon a dish.. They call the rising trout… it’s often seen by those who are keen.. but not by those who shout…

"…hey !" Now you got the toes tapping…we could be in some serious trouble by friday… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Sorry if this has been repeated, It was April the 41st, being a quadruple leapyear, I was driving in downtown Atlantis.  My Barracuda was in the shop, so, I was in a rented Stingray, and it was overheating.  So I pulled into a Shell station, they said I’d blown a seal.  I said:  "Fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of it, okay pal?"  While they were doing that I walked over to a place called the Oyster Bar.  A real dive. But I knew the owner, he used to play for the dolphins.  I said "Hi Gill!", you have to yell, he’s hard of herring.   Gill was also down on his luck, fact is he was barely keeping his head below water.  I bellied up to the sandbar, he poured the usual:  Rusty snail, hold the grunion, shaken, not stirred, with a peanut butter and jelly-fish sandwich on the side, heavy on the mako.  I slipped him a finn, on porpoise.  I was feelin’ good.  I even dropped a sand-dollar in the box for Jerry’s Squids, for the halibut.  Well, the place was crowded.  We were packed in like sardines, they were all there to listen to the big band sounds of Tommy Dorsal.  What sole!  Tommy was rockin the place with a very popular tuna:  "Salmon Chanted Evening", and the stage was surrounded by screaming groupers.  Probably there to see the bass player.  One of them, she was this cute little yellowtail.  And she’s givin’ me the eye.  So I figure this is my chance for a little fun, you know, a piece of pisces.  But she said things I just couldn’t fathom.  She was too deep.  Seemed to be under a lot of pressure.  Boy, could she drink.  She drank like a… er, she drank a lot!  I said: "What’s your sign?"  She said: "Aquarian"  I said "great, let’s get tanked".   I invited her up to my place for a little midnight bait.  I said come on baby you wanna, it’ll only take a few minnows.  She threw me that same old line:  "Not tonight, I got a haddock"  And she wasn’t kiddin either cause, in came the biggest, meanest looking haddock I’d ever seen come down the pike.  He was covered with Mussels.  He came over to me and he said:  "Listen Shrimp, Don’t you come trolling around here."  What a crab.  This guy was steamed.  I could see the anchor in his eyes.  I turned to him and said "ah, baloney, you’re just being shellfish."  Well, I know there was going to be trouble, and so did Gil, cause he was already on the phone to the cods.  The haddock hits me with a sucker punch.  I catch him with a left hook.  He eels over.  It was a fluke.  But there he was, lying on the deck, flat as a mackerel.  Kelpless.  I said:  "Forget the cods Gil, this guy’s gonna  need a sturgeon."  Well, the yellowtail was impressed with the way I landed her boyfriend.  She came over to me and she said "Hey bigboy","you’re really a game fish, what’s your name?"  I said "Marlin."   Well, from then on, we had a whale of a time.  I took her to dinner, I took her to dance.  I bought her a bouquet of flounders.  And then I went home with her.  And what did I get for my trouble:  A case of the clams.  

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Like a Sturgeon.. oh oh… Hooked for the very first time… Like a stur-ur-ur-urgeon… I feel its heartbeat… through my line… I’ll stop now… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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Question:

A good size brown beats them all. Just the take is enough for me, but the fight and all those minutes of wondering how big he really is. They just stick to the bottom with even, powerful pulls, just shy of breaking the leader. nothing beats this, Browns for me. kmustad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Proportionally speaking, pound for pound I’d vote for those itty bitty rainbow minnows. Yeah, I would vote for the junior rainbows as well.  You gotta love their acrobatics. Bruce….

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(Eric) writes: I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting trout, the Brook, Rainbow, or Brown….My vote goes to the Rainbow because they jump the most and fight the longest….but the browns also give up good fights and try to get under rocks and the sort…and hope you make the wrong move….Just curious to hear what other flyfishermen feel is the best fighting trout. Proportionally speaking, pound for pound I’d vote for those itty bitty rainbow minnows. You know, the ones that are only about twice as big as your fly.

The same ones that become ‘flying fish’ when you set the hook ? TimW

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I have heard that sea run cutt’s are very hard fighters when they first enter fresh water.  Cutt’s in the high lakes around here are poor fighters, generally, and susceptible to a relatively high mortality rate. TimW

Well conditioned sea-run cutts usually fight much like browns or brook trout; they tend to stay deep, pull hard and shake. They may jump a bit more However a fair number of fish become quite acrobatic and will also make good runs, making the reel scream. I have memories of a fair number of these that I took to be small coho. I remember one fish while working the spring time chum migration on the Harrison that body surfed down the wave of a boat wake to snatch my fly and promptly put in 5 or 6 consecutive jumps; sulked a bit then jumped a few more times. Ralph H

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(Eric) writes:   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting   trout:   Eric

Steelhead. OK, next question… -tgades

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 I’d vote for those itty bitty rainbow minnows. You know, the ones that are only about twice as big as your fly. The same ones that become ‘flying fish’ when you set the hook ?

I know what you mean, those little dudes I launch into the bushes behind me.  ZZZing!  Quite a surprise.  Poor fish, mindin’ his own bidness, when Bang! Zoom! to the moon! Anglerboy

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Mulberry–not the Marlboro, now–which is tied to imitate a–you got it–mulberry.  But these are hardly fair comparisons.  The best stripe

Gee Dave, I have never of the Mulberry hatch!  ;-) -Burton

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Both choices are wild rainbows: 1- summer steelhead.  Not like a winter fish. The turbos are spun up,they’re taken on lighter tackle, and you may be able to sight-fish with dries.

<<< Yeah, it can be real fun watching a finning steelie turn his head and take your fly.  The most incredible sight I have ever seen was this huge 20+ lb. steelhead rise to an October Caddis on the Siletz.  It looked totally incongrous.  That head looked like a basketball. 2- native redside.  I’ll never forget a 17" Deschutes fish that I would have thought was a steelhead, if I wasn’t after the lead fish in a pod of rising trout.  Incredible fight! <<<

I like those big 20-25 pounders.  I have yet to land one.  They fight so different.  You bring them in a couple of times, then they run back out twenty or thirty yds. then go nuts like a chicken with it’s head cut off.  Then they are gone! -Burton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rainbow, without a doubt.  They hit like a train, leap, make strong runs.  Brown and cutthroats are great bulldoggers, and I have seen browns make some good leaps.  Nothing touches the rainbow/steelhead though. — Don Jordan POB 2357 Chiefland, FL 32644 http://ripserv.com/indyjones I am mostly a eastern fisherman so I don’t know what to expect from western trout but years back I was fishing a tiny stream in Utah that was filled with rainbows of 7-9 inches ( the local flyshop wasn’t even aware of the fishery) and I never battled such feisty fish before as these guys.They just wouldn’t give up…..I landed about 1/2 of what I hooked…… They were absolutely amazing !                                                                                        Jody

It sounds like you need to visit the Pacific Northwest Jody!  You would get the battle of your like from some of our brutes. -Burton

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….but the browns also give up good fights and try to get under rocks and the sort…and hope you make the wrong move….Just curious to hear what other flyfishermen feel is the best fighting trout. Proportionally speaking, pound for pound I’d vote for those itty bitty rainbow minnows. You know, the ones that are only about twice as big as your fly. The same ones that become ‘flying fish’ when you set the hook ? TimW

Yes, they usually hit me in the face. If I open my mouth I can eat them right then! DJones

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(Eric) says: : : I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting : trout, the Brook, Rainbow, or Brown….My vote goes to the Rainbow : because they jump the most and fight the longest….but the browns : also give up good fights and try to get under rocks and the sort…and : hope you make the wrong move….Just curious to hear what other : flyfishermen feel is the best fighting trout. : : Eric : : my vote: : : 1) Gerard Strain Rainbows of Kootney Lake  BC; hands down : 2) Kamloops strain Rainbow of the South Interior of BC : : Gerard have the acrobatics and drive of any fish that swims plus : considerably more strength than any salmonid I’ve ever hooked; : including browns; various strains of cutts, Madison, Bow River and : Crowsnnest Rainbows; steelhead ; cohoe etc : : Kamloops fish combine great acrobatics and strength with are largely : insectorvious (sp) : I definitely second Eric’s vote.  The Kamloops trout is very widespread in Southeastern BC. and NE Washington State. – Keith

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The best fighting trout is the one you have on your line right now

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I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting trout, the Brook, Rainbow, or Brown….My vote goes to the Rainbow because they jump the most and fight the longest….but the browns also give up good fights and try to get under rocks and the sort…and hope you make the wrong move….Just curious to hear what other flyfishermen feel is the best fighting trout. Eric

I like Half-pounders on the lower Klamath river in Nor Cal and the lower Rogue river southern Oregon. These are small fall run steelhead, ocean going rainbow trout. They run 12 to 22 inches and are hot as a pistol. They are a great fly rod fish and there are less of them every year. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Proportionally speaking, pound for pound I’d vote for those itty bitty rainbow minnows.

Yeah, I would vote for the junior rainbows as well.  You gotta love their acrobatics. Bruce….

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All of the trouts and chars have periods when they are more aggressive and better fighters.  Get a pre-spawn brown or rainbow and you have a much better situation then these same fish at other times of the years. I have heard that sea run cutt’s are very hard fighters when they first enter fresh water.  Cutt’s in the high lakes around here are poor fighters, generally, and susceptible to a relatively high mortality rate. TimW I had the opportunity (and luck) to fish for skamania steelhead at Trail Creek this July.  These

fish were a fresh summer run strain from Lake Michigan, I don’t really know where the original brood stock came from but I think it was Wash.  They were absolutly incredible fighters, much better than "normal" strains of steelhead. Vince

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All of the trouts and chars have periods when they are more aggressive and better fighters.  Get a pre-spawn brown or rainbow and you have a much better situation then these same fish at other times of the years.   I have heard that sea run cutt’s are very hard fighters when they first enter fresh water.  Cutt’s in the high lakes around here are poor fighters, generally, and susceptible to a relatively high mortality rate. TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Eric, I think the rainbow is a real acrobatic fighter while the brown is more like a bull dog.  Also the cutthroat, the brookie, and the golden all vie with each other over which is the most beautiful that depending water and environment. My favorite trout happens to be the one that’s on the end of the line but I do have a bit of a preference for Mr. Brown Trout. My favorite fish on a fly rod would be a large white fish or carp from the side channel in the lower Yellowstone River. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting trout, the Brook, Rainbow, or Brown….My vote goes to the Rainbow I like Half-pounders on the lower Klamath river in Nor Cal and the lower Rogue river southern Oregon. These are small fall run steelhead, ocean going rainbow

Umm, yeah I forgot about the half-pounders!  They are little silver missiles.  Probably the friskiest fish I’ve ever had on.  The Rogue is a great river.  They are protecting them now. -Burton

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(Eric) writes: I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting trout, the Brook, Rainbow, or Brown….My vote goes to the Rainbow BTW–has anyone developed fly to imitate the fish-food-pellet hatch? It could float for a second then sink to the bottom where it would swell up DJones No, but I have seen some pretty novel approaches to "fly fishing".  On the

Metolius River I have seen a yellow Cheeto Fly and a white Bread-crumb Fly fished below the Allingham Bridge from which tourist types are prone to throw things in an effort to get a rise from a big fish.  It frequently works. -Burton

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I have heard that sea run cutt’s are very hard fighters when they first enter fresh water.  Cutt’s in the high lakes around TimW Yeah, the sea-run cutt’s are dynamite hear on the Oregon Coast.  However,

they have declined so bad it’s getting hard to find them.  I pick one up occasionally while targeting other fish.  They strike like it’s their last meal. Burton

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I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting trout, the Brook, Rainbow, or Brown….My vote goes to the Rainbow because they jump the most and fight the longest….but the browns also give up good fights and try to get under rocks and the sort…and hope you make the wrong move….Just curious to hear what other flyfishermen feel is the best fighting trout.

My preference is the rainbow, since I like fish that jump.  Brown’s give you a nice tug of war, but that’s about all.  Then best of all is the sea-run rainbow, the steelhead.  I have had hens that I swear could tailwalk on the water. -Burton

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I have heard that sea run cutt’s are very hard fighters when TimW I had the opportunity (and luck) to fish for skamania steelhead at Trail Creek this July.  These fish were a fresh summer run strain from Lake Michigan, I don’t really know where the original brood stock came from but I think it was Wash.  They were absolutly incredible fighters, much better than "normal" strains of steelhead. Vince Yup, nice fighting fish!  One of the better strains for flyfishing.  They

originally came from the Washougal in Washington, but now are all over the place including Peru. -Burton

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(Eric) writes: I was just wondering what everyone thought was the best fighting trout, the Brook, Rainbow, or Brown….My vote goes to the Rainbow because they jump the most and fight the longest….but the browns also give up good fights and try to get under rocks and the sort…and hope you make the wrong move….Just curious to hear what other flyfishermen feel is the best fighting trout.

Proportionally speaking, pound for pound I’d vote for those itty bitty rainbow minnows. You know, the ones that are only about twice as big as your fly. They can leap many times their own length out of the water and they run back and forth like their life depended on it. (Reminds me of my kid on too many snicker bars) And ya gotta hand it to them for their gusto going for that huge fly, it must look like a whole day

Question:

Can anyone point me in the direction of Mail Order companies that sell a good range of Fly fishing books. Thanks Simon Simon Lusk Fly Fishing New Zealand on the WWW http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro Department of Consumer Technology Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand

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Hi Three that come to mind are: Dan Bailey’s 1-800-356-4052 Kaufman’s Streamborn  1-800-442-4359 Cabela’s Fly Fishing 1-800-237-4444 Give the 800 # a call and request a catalog. Good Luck Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (catalog avail)

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Try         The Anglers Art         P. O. Box 148         Plainfield, PA 17081         phone (717) 243-9721         fax (717) 243-8603 Very complete and very friendly and helpful. Cheers

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Can anyone point me in the direction of Mail Order companies that sell a good range of Fly fishing books. Thanks Simon

I was just looking through a magazine (about a year old) this morning that had an advertisement.  They claim to have hundreds of titles to choose from.  They are: The Angler’s Art Box 148 Plainfield, PA   17081 Their phone number is:  717-243-9721 and fax line 717-243-8603 Curtis

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Drop an email note to the Brookside Angler in Manchester, VT. They have an extensive list of titles available. Web address http://www.sover.net/~batenkil/flyshop.html

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I’m interested in buying a quality 3 wt outfit – like a Sage LL379 or Thomas & Thomas 7′6" 3 wt paired with possibly a Lamson.  Any dealers or individuals interested in making me an attractive (discounted) offer for the package?. Please contact me by E’mail. Thanks, Mike Ray Atlatna, GA Cashiers, NC

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Drop an email note to the Brookside Angler in Manchester, VT. They have an extensive list of titles available. Web address http://www.sover.net/~batenkil/flyshop.html

Yes try the Merlin Unwin Books catalogue at www.demon.co.uk/M_Unwin_Books or email me for further details Regards

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Can anyone point me in the direction of Mail Order companies that sell a good range of Fly fishing books.

Bennetts of sheffield stock a wide range of videos/ books on the subject. http:/www.dmatters.co.uk/toshops2.html will give you their telephone and fax numbers – just ask them what they have and they will either mail/fax/telephone you. or email them http://www.dmatters.co.uk

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Question:

Are you *sure* this was about fishing!!! Oliver Inverness-shire;  Scotland "Lead me not into temptation – I can do it myself"

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Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Tickling or "guddling" trout is ancient in England, described in many books. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Yup did it myself as a boy, ok only on small streams where you c can reach underneath the bank, slowly move your fingers along untiil you make contact, gently tickle the trout away from the bank and then flip it out of the water. I prefer fly fishing nowardays Regads

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I have tickled trout..It works. also works with goldfish (at least the ones in my pond) regards Kyfho2

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Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Brent

Not only can you tickle the bellies of trout, *that* is how you fish with hands only. As a boy, all my relatives would rendezvous on my         grandfather’s ranch during the haying season each August. It was known as "The Box Bar Ranch," and it stretched along Spring Creek, twelve miles outside of Saratoga, Wyoming. The day we began work in the fields along Spring Creek, during our break for lunch my uncles would place a couple of us in the water upstream, and a couple downstream.  The rest of us would then walk into the middle of the stream.  The trout would quickly retreat to the sides where the stream had cut deeply underneath the sod. Slowly, we would approach the banks, submerging our hands beneath the overhanging sod and placing them under the trout.  We could then gently rub the bellies of the fish. When we felt sure of our hand placement, SNAP!, with a quick flick of the wrist the trout would be airborne, heading for a soft landing in the mowed hay lying along the banks of the stream.   *Catch and eat* was the order of the day on the Box Bar Ranch, along Spring Creek, Saratoga, Wyoming, in the early sixties. Ed Hunsaker Mgr., Henry’s Fork Lodge 1994, 1995 —

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Not a good idea trying the above where mink are endemic !!! Muskrats can also cause pucker.  This happened to a friend back in

high school.  I’d never seen the whites of anyone’s eyes get so large.

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We used to do this as kids in the rivers in the Scottish/ English Borders: 1.  stand in a river in wellies but up to your knees in freezing water.  (it’s best to wear shorts so you don’t have to explain to geriatric parents.  2.  Fell gently under big stones or banks ’til you find a fish.  3.  VERY gently tickle it’s tummy until you can grab it.   THATS the theory!  Usually, you miss the grab, fall in and freeze for hours going home when (final indignity) you get a row.  Good fun though!! David Malone knows how. Oliver Inverness-shire;  Scotland "Lead me not into temptation – I can do it myself"

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seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Brent True. Easy to do if you know of an overhanging bank on a stream where you can reach under *SLOWLY* and very gently stroke the fish with your fingers and very slowly move your hand till you think you have the fishes centre of gravity in your palm and SCOOP the fish out. You cannot grab hold of it.

Reminds of the stories my dad told me ("Tall Tales of Oklahoma") about guys who’d haul big spawning catfish out of the mud.   A big flathead or blue cat would get the best of them sometimes (or so the stories go) and they’d never be heard from again…

Response:

Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Brent

True, I’ve done it often years ago here in holland… (it’s here an illegal way of fishing)

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There was an english TV-series as well, where the method was shown. Seemed to work fine I don’t remember the original name of the series, but it was called in Finland ‘See you later, honey’ BR, Eki

Response:

Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Brent

It’s perfectly true, but I’ve been told it only works on male trout. And how do you determine if it is a male? By giving it a couple of test tickles.

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Suggested reading on the subject is the Curtis Creek Manifesto by Sheridan Anderson.  He spends an illustrated page on the subject. Jim, Nevada Jim’s Outdoor Sports, Elko, Nevada

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I like the "test tickles" joke. Made me laugh. But no-one seems to be taking this seriously. Tickling trout does work. Although it’s not compatible with catch-and-release. You tickle trout (usually in small mountain streams) when you are hungry. Trout usually hide underneath something when they get scared. A hollow space underneath a rock can harbor a half a dozen tightly packed fish. All squashed together. Reach in there with your hand and tickle one along its side and underbelly, just like you were another fish jamming youreself in there–just long enough to figure out where the head and gills are. Then pinch real hard right at the back of the gills, and then head for the campfire. —  Sandy Pittendrigh          –O0       (406) 585-6600-5276

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The reason this works is that the trout thinks you are is making sexual advances. Ernie Harrison

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I made a trout laugh once. I threatened to catch it!

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True – works with ‘ladies’ too Oliver Inverness-shire;  Scotland "Lead me not into temptation – I can do it myself"

Response:

Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Brent

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Tickling or "guddling" trout is ancient in England, described in many books.

… and it can still be practiced today.  While studying Arctic grayling in a river in northern Alaska, a fisheries biologist whom I know saw an unusual sight – a lake trout, which had evidently swum up into the river from a large lake downstream.  The fish was holding tight against the bank, and in order to confirm that it was indeed a lake trout, the biologist "tickled" it and lifted it out of the water. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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 seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Brent

True. Easy to do if you know of an overhanging bank on a stream where you can reach under *SLOWLY* and very gently stroke the fish with your fingers and very slowly move your hand till you think you have the fishes centre of gravity in your palm and SCOOP the fish out. You cannot grab hold of it. Not a good idea trying the above where mink are endemic !!! Pete Marrow work: http://ui.nmh.ac.uk/gsrg.html play: http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/scottish_ff_faq.htm

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True. Easy to do if you know of an overhanging bank on a stream where you can reach under *SLOWLY* and very gently stroke the fish with your fingers and very

The other benefit of this technique is that the fish will magically grow larger as this is performmed Tim Walker

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Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth?

Tickling or "guddling" trout is ancient in England, described in many books. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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The book that comes to mind is "How Green Was My Valley" about a coal mining family in wales (also made into an academy award winning movie, but I don’t think the movie talks about tickling trout).   Matt Carey

: Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My : buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" : stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up : on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? : Tickling or "guddling" trout is ancient in England, described in many books. : — : |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | : |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth?

 Getting close enough to New Zealand Brown trout to tickle their bellies.. I think you want to post this on R.O.F.F. Fantasies…Tickle thier bellies…I think your friend is doing more than tickling your belly..

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Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth? Tickling or "guddling" trout is ancient in England, described in many books.

It’s usually done where ther are undercut banks and the trout may be reached by shore.  It can be described much better in some survival books such as, "The S.A.S. Survival Handbook". Steve —

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Before anyone gets crazy, this has nothing to do with bestiality.  My buddy has heard stories (yeah, right, another one of those "my friend" stories) of seducing brown trout in New Zealand by stealthily sneaking up on them and immobilizing them by stroking their bellies.  True or myth?

Brent, this brings back some old memories. Yes, ‘tickling trout’ is possible and something I’ve done many times as a lad in England. Most of the good trout waters were posted/private and we needed a way to catch fish without a rod. If we didn’t have a pole, we couldn’t possibly be poaching.   We would stand motionless in the water (I remember one favourite place was the river Mole just down from Box Hill) until the trout returned to their feeding stations. People that don’t move didn’t bother them at all. Then we would stretch our hands out about a foot or so (slowly) under a trout and ‘flutter’ our fingers while gradually lifting them and getting closer to the trout’s belly. The action appeared to lull them to sleep and we’d eventually end up with our hands actually touching the fish. Then we just lifted them out of the water and into the bag. Seems to work with most species of trout although ours were mostly speckles. Just for the record – I tried this with pike and it didn’t have the same effect although I did manage to catch pike with my bare hands. My fishing techniques have become somewhat more sophisticated since. David E. Malone All opinions expressed are my own.

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Question:

I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

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I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force?

If you don’t mind dealing with pre-mix, then a Force is a decent enough engine for "in shore" flyfishing. The Force engine line was an older Chrysler design which is now made by Mercury, so the dealer support should be as available as "true" Merc’s… If you’re looking for opinions, I’d look for an engine with VRO (variable rate oiler) so you can avoid the pre-mix and cut down on fouled plugs (a dead engine while snuggling up to cast to a breakwater can be *very* exciting ;^) but that does come with a higher price tag… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

Reply. I have a Force 1985, 85 hp. on my 16 foot bass boat. It works great and hasen’t cost much money. It doesn’t like to run for long periods at high speed, other than that, no problem. I understand Mercury has bought the company out and is supplying service ?????

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I have a Force 1985, 85 hp. on my 16 foot bass boat. It works great and hasen’t cost much money. It doesn’t like to run for long periods at high speed, other than that, no problem. I understand Mercury has bought the company out and is supplying service ?????

Dennis: Using the standard premix ratio (I think it’s probably 50:1?) is probably insufficient for extended high-speed operation of that engine. I can’t say for certain if it’s mentioned in the operator’s manual (but it should be) that for that kind of use the oil should be increased (to 25:1 or so). Otherwise you’re likely to overheat the engine which might explain it’s reluctance to carry on for you at full-blast/long period operation… This is one of the niceties of a good VRO (not to mention that you don’t have to muck around with premix in the first place)… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <         "Read this and nobody gets hurt ;^)"         < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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I am looking at boat for coastal fishing for stripers.  It has a Force 50HP outboard engine that is about four years old and seems to be in mint condition.  Does anyone have any experience with Force? Thanks in advance JK

I would avoid Force like the plague.  Every year in Canada someones motor breaks down and it’s ALWAYS a Force.  Have yet to see one make it thru a hard week of fishing. Just what I’ve seen. Vince

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Question:

Does Orvis recommend snagging?<

I don’t think so, unless the object of the snagging is customers…..

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In the September-October 1995 Orvis News, Orvis recommends a new method of weighting a wet fly (in this case, Orvis egg clusters) so that there is nothing between the fly and the strike putty but line.  The theory is that putting a weight between the fly and the strike indicator will mask a strike, because action at the end of the line will be delayed on its way past the weight.   To avoid this, Orvis recommends clinch-knotting another length of line to the bend of the hook and attaching Orvis’s weighted putty to the other end of this line.  According to Michigan fishing regulations, I believe that is snagging (or at least an illegal method for taking trout and salmon).  Is it legal elsewhere?  Does Orvis realize it is giving bad advice?

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To avoid this, Orvis recommends clinch-knotting another length of line to the bend of the hook and attaching Orvis’s weighted putty to the other end of this line.  According to Michigan fishing regulations, I believe that is snagging (or at least an illegal method for taking trout and salmon).  Is it legal elsewhere?  Does Orvis realize it is giving bad advice?

Sounds like bad advice in terms of drift too.  One advantage to putting the weight above the fly is that it leaves the fly free to drift about as the weight bounces along the bottom.  With the alleged Orvis system, the fly is suspended between the weight dragging along the bottom and the line or strike indicator dragging in the current.  It sounds like it would make it tougher to keep the fly drifting naturally. But Orvis’s point about the weight interfering with sensing the strike is a good one. — -Wayne Trzyna

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