Question:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

Response:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

Response:

eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

Response:

  George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.

snipped: Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands. George Gehrke

Response:

Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands.

The American People’s wildlife inventories are not starving nor do they lack a home. So what I hear you saying is that multiple use on our public lands actually equates to ONLY recreation. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

Response:

  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Response:

I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost.  I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when  "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of  Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

|         www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view | In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands | JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal | Monday, November 11, 2002 |

Question:

Allen As a retired labor economist, harumph, harumph. . . you are on the money ($25-35) for most of the biz/corp and entry pilots. And the folks flying the regional nets don’t get much more. Same goes for mechanics, helo pilots etc. Folks do it for the love of aviation near as I can tell. Dime a dozen here in Seattle area. As to the $200k after 10-12 years with a major. . . I think you are high, but I never did a formal analysis of the high end. Dave

Response:

I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. — TL, Tim (the elitest)

Years ago, Ed Zern wrote a column refuting the notion that only a better class of people fly fish.  He said one of the most skillful dry-fly men he ever saw owned a string of sporting houses up and down the East Coast. vince norris

Response:

Years ago, Ed Zern…said one of the most skillful dry-fly men he ever saw owned a string of sporting houses up and down the East Coast.

Still, fly fishing must attract SOME people of lesser quality, don’tcha think?      :) Wolfgang

Response:

Those guys had access to a private jet? From my experiences as a Grand Canyon Guide, you probably could have chatted up those pilots, showed them a casting trick or two, and gotten an invite to get flown somewhere in return. A friend of mine is a pilot and flew for an oil man for a while back when oil was king. He didn’t have much, if any, latitude at all where the plane went or who went along – but he did get to fish with his boss when he flew him on fishing trips.

Did he ever ‘drop your name’ to his boss as a potential fishing partner? Of course, a lot depends on the relationship between boss, pilot and plane, but I bet many pilots who regularly fly for the same owner would be good people to be chums with. A ladyfriend of mine got a free sail around the world when she became chummy with the captain of some oil magnates yacht. riverman

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Did he ever ‘drop your name’ to his boss as a potential fishing partner? Of course, a lot depends on the relationship between boss, pilot and plane, but I bet many pilots who regularly fly for the same owner would be good people to be chums with.

I never asked him to ‘drop my name’, but another friend we both grew up with was always trying to mooch something and I don’t think he was very successful. My pilot friend wanted to move on up to an airline job and I wasn’t interested in asking him to risk anything with his boss. It would probably be easier if you could find someone at the end of their career who didn’t give a shit. <g — Charlie…

Response:

 USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc… Remove "XX" from address

From their site: "Fly fishing is not the passive sport of putting a worm on a hook. It’s a graceful back-and-forth casting in the air of fishing line and feathers tied tight to a hook and the skilled landing of the fly atop the water, insect manna from heaven to a finicky fish." Who in the hell have they been watching? John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc… Remove "XX" from address From their site: "Fly fishing is not the passive sport of putting a worm on a hook. It’s a graceful back-and-forth casting in the air of fishing line and feathers tied tight to a hook and the skilled landing of the fly atop the water, insect manna from heaven to a finicky fish." Who in the hell have they been watching? John

Not me, that’s fer sure. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Private pilots for an executive?  Heh, heh, heh.  They make a helluva lot more than the average roffian and should be able to pay for their own flyfishing vacation.  But, still…..  perhaps the exec thinks familiarity breeds contempt.

I didn’t get the impression from either of those groups of private pilots that they were rolling in dough. They were doing OK, about like your average professional. Not as well as you, Dave. The first group I met, a couple of years ago, had just flown Edgar Bronfman, Jr. (of Seagram’s) in for a society weekend in Sun Valley. I was naturally curious about the lifestyles of the rich and famous, so I asked questions. Bronfman’s jet was a Gulfstream IV, which, if I recall correctly, they said cost $60 million. They that said he (or the company) had more than one — they weren’t sure how many, but at least two. It required a crew of three and cost $5000/hr to operate (not including the crew). Incredible. Those pilots had never flyfished before, and there they were fishing the morning Trico spinner fall on Silver Creek, with #12 Royal Wulffs and 5x tippet, slapping the water on their backcasts. I’d never fished that hatch before either, but I was prepared, with the right flies and 7x tippet. I got really lucky and picked a spot right above a large pod of fish. Caught three nice ‘bows. (Yeah, I know, Wolfgang, you insufferable dipshit.) They thought I was a fishing god. If only they knew. I gave them tippet and some flies, and told them about the spring-creek downstream presentation, but it didn’t do any good that day. Maybe if they came back later it helped. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

jet was a Gulfstream IV, which, if I recall correctly, they said cost $60 million

check out these guys: http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ bruce h

Response:

You’d be surprised. Corporate pilots generally don’t make a much money at all. It’s a way to build multi-engine turbine flight time and get to a major airline where they make more money than I care to think about (after 4 years that is) The corporate pilot lifestyle often is an on-call job so having a life is tough unless it’s a big company that has multiple aircraft and crews. Even at a major airline first year pilot pay is only about $20K but generally by the time you get to 10 or 12 years and a Captain you’re up above $200K Allen Epps Catonsville, MD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw writes: Silver Creek snipped Private pilots for an executive?  Heh, heh, heh.  They make a helluva lot more than the average roffian and should be able to pay for their own flyfishing vacation.  But, still…..  perhaps the exec thinks familiarity breeds contempt.   Dave

Response:

i’ll put silver creek "on the must see list"… thanx…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – silver creek…as in near gramby, co?? No. It’s near Picabo, ID. (Also fairly near Bellevue, Hailey, and Ketchum, and about 100 miles from Stanley, my home town.) Silver Creek, Idaho is a famous spring creek — one of the very best in the Western US. Much of it is public water, so it gets a lot of pressure. I especially like to fish it in the Fall, when I’m sometimes the only one there. You’re going to be in Ketchum in August, right, beancounter? If so, you just HAVE pay a visit to Silver Creek. Even if you don’t catch one of those notoriously selective trout, it’s worth the experience. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

… They thought I was a fishing god. If only they knew. I gave them tippet and some flies, and told them about the spring-creek downstream presentation, but it didn’t do any good that day. Maybe if they came back later it helped.

Those guys had access to a private jet? From my experiences as a Grand Canyon Guide, you probably could have chatted up those pilots, showed them a casting trick or two, and gotten an invite to get flown somewhere in return. Folks would wait 5 years and pay thousands of dollars to do Canyon trips, but I had access to the boats, gear, and was doing 4-6 trips a year. I could <easily get someone on a trip, or arrange a private trip somewhere if someone turned out to be an interesting person and was interested. One mans inaccessible luxury is another mans day-to-day. riverman

Response:

Those guys had access to a private jet? From my experiences as a Grand Canyon Guide, you probably could have chatted up those pilots, showed them a casting trick or two, and gotten an invite to get flown somewhere in return.

A friend of mine is a pilot and flew for an oil man for a while back when oil was king. He didn’t have much, if any, latitude at all where the plane went or who went along – but he did get to fish with his boss when he flew him on fishing trips. — Charlie…

Response:

silver creek…as in near gramby, co??

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I was at Silver Creek a couple of weeks ago I met two pilots who fly a private jet. Oddly, this was the second time that’s happened to me at Silver Creek. They’d flown in some super wealthy Chicago commodities trader who was fishing exclusive private water all over the western Rockies. We got to talking about how those super rich people lead such different lives from us. They were kind of bitter about it, complaining about how cheap their boss was and how he’d never dream of inviting them to fish the private water. I said that we have more fun than they do, and those guys agreed with a laugh. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

silver creek…as in near gramby, co??

No. It’s near Picabo, ID. (Also fairly near Bellevue, Hailey, and Ketchum, and about 100 miles from Stanley, my home town.) Silver Creek, Idaho is a famous spring creek — one of the very best in the Western US. Much of it is public water, so it gets a lot of pressure. I especially like to fish it in the Fall, when I’m sometimes the only one there. You’re going to be in Ketchum in August, right, beancounter? If so, you just HAVE pay a visit to Silver Creek. Even if you don’t catch one of those notoriously selective trout, it’s worth the experience. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

rw writes: When I was at Silver Creek a couple of weeks ago I met two pilots who fly a private jet. Oddly, this was the second time that’s happened to me at Silver Creek. They’d flown in some super wealthy Chicago commodities trader who was fishing exclusive private water all over the western Rockies. We got to talking about how those super rich people lead such different lives from us. They were kind of bitter about it, complaining about how cheap their boss was and how he’d never dream of inviting them to fish the private water. I said that we have more fun than they do, and those guys agreed with a laugh.

Private pilots for an executive?  Heh, heh, heh.  They make a helluva lot more than the average roffian and should be able to pay for their own flyfishing vacation.  But, still…..  perhaps the exec thinks familiarity breeds contempt.   Dave

Response:

Tim J writes: Maybe what they’re saying is that if you flyfish, you are in the top percentile of the human race. I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. — Yeah, and ya ended up with me, Fortenberry, Wolfie, wayno, walt, Jeffie, rw, Warren, all the Waynes, a Reid, and anyone else who calls himself a roffian. Seems like you got screwed!  d;0) Dave

You’re telling me! — TL, Tim . . . but you guys ended up with me, so we’re even!

Response:

When I was at Silver Creek a couple of weeks ago I met two pilots who fly a private jet. Oddly, this was the second time that’s happened to me at Silver Creek. They’d flown in some super wealthy Chicago commodities trader who was fishing exclusive private water all over the western Rockies. We got to talking about how those super rich people lead such different lives from us. They were kind of bitter about it, complaining about how cheap their boss was and how he’d never dream of inviting them to fish the private water. I said that we have more fun than they do, and those guys agreed with a laugh. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it. So….., you would be a celibate slut?

I don’t think that even I could pull off that contradiction  . . . Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Umm perhaps I should clarify I meant to type nymphers. Musta been the coupla Ciders I’ve had to celebrate Friday. Allen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Tim J writes: Maybe what they’re saying is that if you flyfish, you are in the top percentile of the human race. I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. —

Yeah, and ya ended up with me, Fortenberry, Wolfie, wayno, walt, Jeffie, rw, Warren, all the Waynes, a Reid, and anyone else who calls himself a roffian. Seems like you got screwed!  d;0) Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc… Remove "XX" from address

Response:

Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Uh, Allen, the term is "bottom dwellers" – I don’t think I want to be known as a nymph – don’t have the bod for it.

So….., you would be a celibate slut? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply.

Response:

 USA Today has an article today (June 21) about executives  and flyfishing.  "There’s something about flyfishing that  attracts people who rise to the top."  etc…

Maybe what they’re saying is that if you flyfish, you are in the top percentile of the human race. I know that’s why *I* started – to meet a better class of people. — TL, Tim (the elitest)

Response:

Question:

I expect to take golf up again after a haitius of 25+ years. (The walking did me in:)) The plan is is to start off on weekdays at in the fall, on carts, by myself at a Publinx. I expect to have trouble breaking 200 for starters:) I expect though to get better if I stick with it. However I would not be suprised if I never get the equivilent of a 100 on a real hard championship course. But I am going to do it to enjoy myself and the nice weather when there is nice weather. (Dry, between 60 and 75 degrees, no wind, a little warmer with wind. I wonder if most people have lost the ability to enjoy some of life’s simpler pleasures? I wonder if it would happen to me?:) I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! –Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I expect to take golf up again after a haitius of 25+ years. (The walking did me in:)) The plan is is to start off on weekdays at in the fall, on carts, by myself at a Publinx. I expect to have trouble breaking 200 for starters:) I expect though to get better if I stick with it. However I would not be suprised if I never get the equivilent of a 100 on a real hard championship course. But I am going to do it to enjoy myself and the nice weather when there is nice weather. (Dry, between 60 and 75 degrees, no wind, a little warmer with wind. I wonder if most people have lost the ability to enjoy some of life’s simpler pleasures? I wonder if it would happen to me?:)

Nah. Just look at the ones going to organized RSG events. ‘Cept for Ken, who loves winning a bet with someone. Get back to playing, and enjoy the ~4 hours of therapy. I’m going for my session tomorrow (Where are you Thor?) -T- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! –Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY

Response:

Do people take golf too seriously?

Why, I should kill you for even asking such a silly question!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I expect to take golf up again after a haitius of 25+ years. (The walking did me in:)) The plan is is to start off on weekdays at in the fall, on carts, by myself at a Publinx. I expect to have trouble breaking 200 for starters:) I expect though to get better if I stick with it. However I would not be suprised if I never get the equivilent of a 100 on a real hard championship course. But I am going to do it to enjoy myself and the nice weather when there is nice weather. (Dry, between 60 and 75 degrees, no wind, a little warmer with wind. I wonder if most people have lost the ability to enjoy some of life’s simpler pleasures? I wonder if it would happen to me?:)

In fly fishing, there’s a saying that maybe the mark of a fisherman should not be how big of a fish will satisfy him, but how small of a fish he can catch and be satisfied.  I suppose there’s something similar in golf.  Good luck, doesn’t work for me

Response:

In fly fishing, there’s a saying that maybe the mark of a fisherman should not be how big of a fish will satisfy him, but how small of a fish he can catch and be satisfied.  

With me, probably anything with over a pound of filet in it. Last time I ever fished was 40 years from a boat in a like, caufgt zilch. I can’t remember if I ever caught a keeper in my life:) I read somewhere that fish often bite for people who smell good to them:) I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! –Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I expect to take golf up again after a haitius of 25+ years. (The walking did me in:)) The plan is is to start off on weekdays at in the fall, on carts, by myself at a Publinx. I expect to have trouble breaking 200 for starters:) I expect though to get better if I stick with it. However I would not be suprised if I never get the equivilent of a 100 on a real hard championship course. But I am going to do it to enjoy myself and the nice weather when there is nice weather. (Dry, between 60 and 75 degrees, no wind, a little warmer with wind. I wonder if most people have lost the ability to enjoy some of life’s simpler pleasures? I wonder if it would happen to me?:) I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! –Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY

 hey john what’s your POD, oops this isn’t shwi.  but seriously, do some people take golf too seriously, nah  cursing, throwing clubs is just their way of unwinding  bud

Response:

Someone asked… Do people take golf too seriously? Well… I try… dsc

Response:

Teresa please do yourself a great favor by reading the golfswinger course and practice what it teaches to the letter…exercise is important for your swing to work properly and naturally…get in shape and stay in shape. Tell me in 6 months that you are a low handicapper. Al http://golfswinger.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I expect to take golf up again after a haitius of 25+ years. (The walking did me in:)) The plan is is to start off on weekdays at in the fall, on carts, by myself at a Publinx. I expect to have trouble breaking 200 for starters:) I expect though to get better if I stick with it. However I would not be suprised if I never get the equivilent of a 100 on a real hard championship course. But I am going to do it to enjoy myself and the nice weather when there is nice weather. (Dry, between 60 and 75 degrees, no wind, a little warmer with wind. I wonder if most people have lost the ability to enjoy some of life’s simpler pleasures? I wonder if it would happen to me?:) Nah. Just look at the ones going to organized RSG events. ‘Cept for Ken, who loves winning a bet with someone. Get back to playing, and enjoy the ~4 hours of therapy. I’m going for my session tomorrow (Where are you Thor?) -T- I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! –Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY

Response:

Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? -T-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Teresa please do yourself a great favor by reading the golfswinger course and practice what it teaches to the letter…exercise is important for your swing to work properly and naturally…get in shape and stay in shape. Tell me in 6 months that you are a low handicapper. Al http://golfswinger.com I expect to take golf up again after a haitius of 25+ years. (The walking did me in:)) The plan is is to start off on weekdays at in the fall, on carts, by myself at a Publinx. I expect to have trouble breaking 200 for starters:) I expect though to get better if I stick with it. However I would not be suprised if I never get the equivilent of a 100 on a real hard championship course. But I am going to do it to enjoy myself and the nice weather when there is nice weather. (Dry, between 60 and 75 degrees, no wind, a little warmer with wind. I wonder if most people have lost the ability to enjoy some of life’s simpler pleasures? I wonder if it would happen to me?:) Nah. Just look at the ones going to organized RSG events. ‘Cept for Ken, who loves winning a bet with someone. Get back to playing, and enjoy the ~4 hours of therapy. I’m going for my session tomorrow (Where are you Thor?) -T- I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend until YOUR DEATH your right to say it! –Austin 3:17 JOHN A. MONTGOMERY

Response:

Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to?

He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. Hey Al, do us a favor…get lost. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm

Response:

Come on, is it possible to take golf too seriously?

Response:

Teresa please do yourself a great favor by reading the golfswinger course and practice what it teaches to the letter…exercise is important for your swing to work properly and naturally…get in shape and stay in shape. Tell me in 6 months that you are a low handicapper. Al

Buzz off with this crap Al!

Response:

Oh I know…. I was trying to be a nice person instead of saying F&*^ off! When in doubt, kill them with kindness. -T-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. Hey Al, do us a favor…get lost. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm

Response:

Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads.

I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer.  Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer.  Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. -T-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer.  Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al "Jeff Connelly" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer. Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al

Is my server screwing up, or is Al losing it?  This seems like "Groundhog Day".

Response:

I’ve tried being nice, and you won’t get the hint. F*** OFF! I am not interested in your S****! Sincerely, -T-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al "Jeff Connelly" Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer. Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

Aw come on, tell him what you really think – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve tried being nice, and you won’t get the hint. F*** OFF! I am not interested in your S****! Sincerely, -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al "Jeff Connelly" in Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer. Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

I’ve tried being nice, and you won’t get the hint. F*** OFF! I am not interested in your S****! Sincerely, -T-

Nicely done!  Now I really hope to meet you at RSG DFW.  You not only look like Bruce Willis, you can cuss like him!

Response:

Teresa……what balls do you play with? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve tried being nice, and you won’t get the hint. F*** OFF! I am not interested in your S****! Sincerely, -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al "Jeff Connelly" Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer. Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

I believe when she wrote "F*** OFF! I am not interested in your S****!" she was attempting to put an end to your unsolicited advice.  Your question as to what balls she plays with seems to me to be a continuation of said adivce.  I get the feeling no matter what balls she uses you will tell her to read the golfswinger course.  Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to follow her suggestion… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Teresa……what balls do you play with? I’ve tried being nice, and you won’t get the hint. F*** OFF! I am not interested in your S****! Sincerely, -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al "Jeff Connelly" Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. -T- You are most likely continuously correcting faults in the basis of your swing instead of learning how to have a great swing forever. Try it, it can’t hurt you. Simple and uncomplicated. It will only improve you. Show it to you "Professional" as I.I’m sure he too will benefit.Al Excuse me, sir, but I have a professional working with me on my game. I am afraid to listen to more than one teacher who might confuse what he is instructing me on. Thank you for your efforts. Secondly, what were you refering to? He’s referring to a website that he has promoted in no less than five different threads. I think she was being funny – referring to the old thread where a woman (different woman?) asked for advice for when somebody on the driving range tries to help with her swing and won’t take no for an answer. Teresa’s post is basically one of the replies that woman got

Response:

Teresa……what balls do you play with? I’ve tried being nice, and you won’t get the hint. F*** OFF! I am not interested in your S****!

Al: You’re jacking with one of the favorite posters on this ng, and a super lady.  I suggest that you stop.   ___,     o        |       /      .   "Someone likes every shot" bk

Response:

Question:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick. Please note the following: -my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are ignored by     the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, especially     those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly spinners     etc. etc. – IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky fish,     and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to time.     Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are forced to     rollcast your dries ? – a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use seems     to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details of small flies,     and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, that will     prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water Thanks -Vittorio

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick.

I hear Orvis has a GREAT floatant, you should try that. [Ducking],      - Ken — "Time is but the stream I go a-fishin in. I drink at it, but while I drink I see the sandy bottom and detect how shallow it is. It’s thin current slides away, but eternity remains."   – H.D. Thoreau

Response:

Other than Scotch Guard, the way you dress you pattern helps, meaning your hackle density, etc.  Variants of patterns such as a parachute or irresistable instead of a standard adams; CDC & Elk Hair vs a regular Elk hair caddis, etc..  Dress your flies to suit the water you will be fishing. A good dessicant can help, which is what I use when I can’t false cast. There is a brand of dessicant in a green translucent bottle called "Dry Shake" that dries off a fly quickly.  If you use that, and then hit it with your flotant of choice, its as good as starting with a fresh fly. I am going to mention it anyhow Vittorio, GG’s flotant really is good stuff. I used to use paste before switching.  It is worth the small investment of giving it a try.   Liquid floatants are better at getting into the details, which is the main reason I tried liquids, the liquids I tried didn’t work well enough until I used GG’s brand of flotant, no kidding. Good luck, let us know how your Scotch Guard soaking works.  I have found just spraying SG to be relatively useless. — Matt Blickensderfer * Piscaro itaque dicet mendacium *

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick. Please note the following: -my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are ignored by    the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, especially    those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly spinners    etc. etc. – IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky fish,    and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to time.    Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are forced to    rollcast your dries ? – a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use seems    to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details of small flies,    and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, that will    prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water Thanks -Vittorio

Response:

Michael, I have tried the soaking in ScotchGuard trick. I found very little improvement on floatability. I soaked several flies in a container of Scotchguard for about a half hour then let them dry on a paper towel. I then took them and some flies I had not treated with Scotchguard fishing.  The flies soaked in Scotchguard floated only slightly longer than non-treated flies. To me it did not seem to be worth the extra effort and mess of soaking the flies in Scotchguard for what little extra floatability I got.The fliesI fished with floatant(Gink) floated just fine. I was experimenting with a parachute Adams. bruce – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -0] : : I have seen people claim that soaking in ScotchGuard works, although I : haven’t tried it. They said to spray some in a 35mm film cannister and : shake the flies in there, as I recall. : — : Charlie… I have tried that and come to the conclusion that Scotchgaurd  has no noticable effecton the flotation or soakability of my dry flies. I currently use old GG’s product at streamside and find that it works as advertised. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971  a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491

Response:

vittorio asked for advise on fly floatants. Anyone who tries Scotchguard might be tempted to try Rain-X. Please don’t that crap stunk up the garage for about a week. Big Dale

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Other than Scotch Guard, the way you dress you pattern helps, meaning your hackle density, etc.  Variants of patterns such as a parachute or irresistable instead of a standard adams; CDC & Elk Hair vs a regular Elk hair caddis, etc..  Dress your flies to suit the water you will be fishing. A good dessicant can help, which is what I use when I can’t false cast. There is a brand of dessicant in a green translucent bottle called "Dry Shake" that dries off a fly quickly.  If you use that, and then hit it with your flotant of choice, its as good as starting with a fresh fly. I am going to mention it anyhow Vittorio, GG’s flotant really is good stuff. I used to use paste before switching.  It is worth the small investment of giving it a try.   Liquid floatants are better at getting into the details, which is the main reason I tried liquids, the liquids I tried didn’t work well enough until I used GG’s brand of flotant, no kidding. Good luck, let us know how your Scotch Guard soaking works.  I have found just spraying SG to be relatively useless. — Matt Blickensderfer * Piscaro itaque dicet mendacium * I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick. Please note the following: -my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are ignored by    the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, especially    those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly spinners    etc. etc. – IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky fish,    and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to time.    Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are forced to    rollcast your dries ? – a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use seems    to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details of small flies,    and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, that will    prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water Thanks -Vittorio

3M marketed a floatant years ago (20 yrs, maybe) and from what I heard it was scotchguard – I think the trick is to spray flies 24 hrs b4 there use and then apply a floatant, Daves bug float or whatever. The post b4 mine from Mr Matt Blickensderfer about dressing flies is probably most important.  http://www.newsfeeds.com/       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Response:

tried gink? — Nicholas J. Slodki http://trampled.net/Nikolai0/

:I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. :I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do :too much. :I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if :there are other products that could to the trick. : lease note the following: : :-my attractor patterns tend to float forever, especially when they are :ignored by :    the fish, I am more concerned with less heavily  dressed flies, :especially :    those that ride low on the water, or hackless patterns such as poly :spinners :    etc. etc. :- IMHO, false casting is a good way of further spooking already spooky :fish, :    and not the best fly floatant, as I have seen mentioned from time to :time. :    Also, what if you do not have space for a backcast and you are :forced to :    rollcast your dries ? :- a better floatant could be a solution, however what I currently use :seems :    to do the trick. Since it is a paste, it is hard to apply to details f small flies, :    and this is the reason why I would like something that I apply once, :that will :    prevent the bodies of the flies from soaking up too much water : :Thanks : :-Vittorio : : :

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies.

        in my twentysomething years of fishing for trout, i have found nothing that is as long lasting as gink. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks -Vittorio

Response:

(Frogspritz) writes: Someone gave me the bottle to try.  Haven’t tried it yet, however, so who knows? Unfortunately, I don’t know where it could be for sale.

The stuff works, it really works if you follow the instructions. And it is becoming available in many fly shops. Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

Response:

0]

: I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. : I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do : too much. : I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if : there are other products that could to the trick. : : I have seen people claim that soaking in ScotchGuard works, although I : haven’t tried it. They said to spray some in a 35mm film cannister and : shake the flies in there, as I recall. : — : Charlie… I have tried that and come to the conclusion that Scotchgaurd  has no noticable effecton the flotation or soakability of my dry flies. I currently use old GG’s product at streamside and find that it works as advertised. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies.         in my twentysomething years of fishing for trout, i have found nothing that is as long lasting as gink.

Speaking of Gink, you’re suposed to put it on a dry fly (I mean on a fly that’s not wet). No doudt that’s best, but I sometimes slather it on a soaked fly and it still seems to work pretty well. I’ll dry the fly out as well as I can with a few false casts, but the fly is still pretty damp. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

<<I hear Orvis has a GREAT floatant, you should try that. And, Orvis sells a neat tub of dessicant (drying crystals).  Simply put you fly in the tub, close the lid, and shake a couple of times. Works wonderfully.  Then you wouldn’t need any of that sissy floatant stuff. Dave pushing Ken aside and also ducking.

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies.

I have before me a little bottle of stuff called "Water Shed", which is called "permanent waterproofing liquid".  Instructions call for a drop to be added to the fly at least one day before the fly touches the water for the first time. "It will not effect color, softness and is odorless after 24 hour cure period" says the label. Someone gave me the bottle to try.  Haven’t tried it yet, however, so who knows? Unfortunately, I don’t know where it could be for sale. Mark Faulkner

Response:

I am looking for advice on how to improve the floatability of flies. I have tried a light coating of Scotchguard, which does not seem to do too much. I am wondering if soaking flies in Scotchguard would work better, or if there are other products that could to the trick.

"Watershed" permanent waterproofing liquid is recommended by and available from Feather-Craft Fly Fishing of St.Louis. http://www.flyfishamerica.com/Ads/National/FeatherCraft98JF.html I have no connection with Feather_Craft other than satisfied customer. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Question:

…looks like it has great potential as a fly fishing stream.  Do you know where it is? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Nice cuts and one can actually walk away from the roads. Moose, Elk, Deer and an occasional bear (grizzly) pask

Response:

Question:

I’m just starting the sport of fly fishing and would like to know where I can fish in Arizona. I would appreciate information on productive fly fishing locations and places to stay also in the area.                        Thank you for your time,                                     Adam

Response:

I’m just starting the sport of fly fishing and would like to know where I can fish in Arizona. I would appreciate information on productive fly fishing locations and places to stay also in the area.                       Thank you for your time,                                    Adam

Hello Adam, Welcome to flyfishing!  I think you will find many enjoyable opportunities to flyfish in the state of Arizona.  I upkeep a web page which is devoted to fly fishing in the state, which is not so surprisingly called Fly Fishing in Arizona.  On the page are several lists of fishing locations and resources, along with current fishing reports.  The location is listed below. I hope this information is of use to you.  Please feel free to e-mail me with any additional questions. John Shannon Fly Fishing in Arizona http://www.indirect.com/user/jshannon

Response:

 I’m just starting the sport of fly fishing and would like to know where I  can fish in Arizona. I would appreciate information on productive fly  fishing locations and places to stay also in the area.

Try  http://www.indirect.com/user/jshannon

Response:

Adam, Try http://www.indirect.com/user/jshannon/, it is the AZ Flyfishing WWW home page.  I don’t know your location but the page has locations all over AZ.  I would recommend the lower Salt River (below Saguaro Lake) and Lee’s Ferry (if you can get there. Regards, Steve.

Response:

(Filthyfly) writes: I’m just starting the sport of fly fishing and would like to know where I can fish in Arizona. I would appreciate information on productive fly fishing locations and places to stay also in the area.                       Thank you for your time,                                    Adam

Adam, Please check out www.kinghill.com/adventur/ambass.html and see the packages for fly fishing at Lee’s Ferry and the Grand Canyon.  The Grand Canyon package is one of a kind…. Tom

Response:

Question:

I am trying to answer the following fishing facts, that maybe some of you have the answers to: 1.      What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when? 2.      What is the current world record for Rainbow Trout and when was it caught? 3.      The Rainbow Trout world record used to be something like 42 lbs from Lake Pend Oreille. If that record does not still hold, what were the details surrounding that old record? If you know any of these, please e-mail to *                                                                       * * "Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity or prolixity."          *

Response:

1.     What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when?  97 1/4 lbs, 1986.  This was in an article in this month’s Salmon, Trout,  and Steelheader magazine.  greg pavlov

…and, caught on the Kenai River, AK.  It was a big second-run king. -tgades

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1.  What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when?

The record sport-caught King was ninety some pounds, caught in Alaska’s Kenai River.  The record commercially-netted king was in excess of 120 lbs, as I recall, caught in the Cook Inlet. Several years ago a sport fisherman on the Kenai tied into what experienced guides believed was a King exceeding 120 lbs.  The guy played it for several days (sic) before it finally broke off.  It was kind of fun to check the newspaper every morning and see how the fight was going. — -Wayne Trzyna

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While where on the record… Does anyone know the flyfishing record for arctic grayling?  I can only find an all tackle record. Thanks, Lynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am trying to answer the following fishing facts, that maybe some of you have the answers to: 1. What is the current world record for King Salmon? Where was it caught and when? 2. What is the current world record for Rainbow Trout and when was it caught? 3. The Rainbow Trout world record used to be something like 42 lbs from Lake Pend Oreille. If that record does not still hold, what were the details surrounding that old record? If you know any of these, please e-mail to *                                                                       * * "Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity or prolixity."          *

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Question:

M. Gades) writes: I’ve been kicking this idea around for a while and I think it could

be SOME TEXT DELETED So, where can we find your www home page? -tgades

RESPONSE: I understand your doubts howerer, I do not have a home page.  While I admit that I am a business, I am also a fisherman.  My educational background is in communication and I’d like to do some things for the NET. When the time comes for me to create a page, my page would still have to bear up to the scrutiny of the members of the Newsgroups.  I intend to make sure that voting is carried out by a third party like other CFV’s in the groups.  This is not motivated by greed!!!  

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I’ve been kicking this idea around for a while and I think it could be interesting.  What I propose is a series of awards voted on by the fishing newsgroup community to both recognize and influence the WWW and FTP developers to create more and better information for us – The Fishermen.

Good idea – go for it! You talk as if there is some seperate group of people we are dependent on to create WWW sites, but all the fishing sites I know of are fisherpersons’s personal work. That is the beauty (and nuisance) of WWW – it doesn’t take a multimillion$ corporation to create and broadcast work. Because what you’re seeing doesn’t go through any committee approval process, there’s quite a bit of variance in peoples’ works.  If you have funding to give some awards you can perhaps inspire people to create works more to your liking – tell us what you’d like to give us a little time before the voting starts. The Virtual Fly Shop that Mike Tucker has put together has a good directory to other fishing sites. It lists all the sites that Mike has read about here and on the listserver.  I don’t have the URL handy but it is posted here on rec.outdoors.fishing.fly often. If you have an idea, put a few hours into learning HTML and get started. I was able to learn enough and make my site in a weekend with the NCSA Simple HTML editor for Hypercard/Mac. If you don’t use Macintosh your timing couldn’t be better; I hear that windows PCs can now do graphics and there are free HTML editors available for them too.  ;) If you need someone to host it and cannot find an affordable site, let me know and I can put you in contact.   Mark Vinsel Visit my gallery: http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.HTML Also while your there, check out the ProArts Eastbay Open Studios web site: http://www.lanminds.com/local/proarts.html (I didn’t make this but it was my idea and I’m damn proud of it)

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AMI News has created a centralized source of outdoor information that includes links to various fishing pages. As a news organization we are trying to find fishing conditions from around the world along with other interesting fishing information that appeals to a wide range of readers.   We invite you to submit any and all web sites for consideration. There is NO CHARGE to link. We also invite any fishing site to link with the AMI Rec Network. Take a look: http.//www.aminews.com/ami Thanks, Rob Brown Webmaster – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Take a look: http.//www.aminews.com/ami

My netscape reports no DNS entry to be found for www.aminews.com.    

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I’d like to submit my homepage.  It is relatively new, but I will be doing lots of work on it over the next few weeks.  I focus on flyfishing and I live and fish mostly in Oregon, but fish often in Idaho, and take trips to Washington, California, Montana, just got back from the Green River in Utah, and a Red fish excursion to New Orleans.   http://www.teleport.com/~anthonyn thanks, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – AMI News has created a centralized source of outdoor information that includes links to various fishing pages. As a news organization we are trying to find fishing conditions from around the world along with other interesting fishing information that appeals to a wide range of readers.   We invite you to submit any and all web sites for consideration. There is NO CHARGE to link. We also invite any fishing site to link with the AMI Rec Network. Take a look: http.//www.aminews.com/ami Thanks, Rob Brown Webmaster

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I’ve been kicking this idea around for a while and I think it could be interesting.  What I propose is a series of awards voted on by the fishing newsgroup community to both recognize and influence the WWW and FTP developers to create more and better information for us – The Fishermen. It seems like everyday, there is a posting on where to find good WWW information.  This process will serve to organize and rate the various offerings out there and help make the info available to all.  Later, we could possibly create a home page as an index to the best stuff out there. Please confine comment to the newsgroups as I think I would get swamped with E-Mail at this point.  I will be sharing more details of my Idea in a few days but I just want to get discussion going.

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I’ve been kicking this idea around for a while and I think it could be interesting.  What I propose is a series of awards voted on by the fishing newsgroup community to both recognize and influence the WWW and FTP developers to create more and better information for us – The Fishermen. SOME TEXT DELETED

So, where can we find your www home page? -tgades

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Question:

Anyone have the conditions on the stream.  I expect to be in Deposit in three weeks and sure would like to hear from someone who’s been there.

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east & west branches are very low ,as is the main branch. Right now march browns are hatching, in a week or so I expect to see Green drakes. The first release is not scheduled untl 6/15. If we don’t get some rain soon fishing will be seriously affected. I will be spending a few days there at the end of the week ,will report on conditiions

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: east & west branches are very low ,as is the main branch. Right now march : browns are hatching, in a week or so I expect to see Green drakes. The : first release is not scheduled untl 6/15. If we don’t get some rain soon : fishing will be seriously affected. I will be spending a few days there at : the end of the week ,will report on conditiions I was on the fly stretch just below Deposit last night.  Very low is right. We got there about 7:00pm, and there was a blizzard of caddis coming off in the riffle just below the main parking access.  Some hendricksons and march browns.  We got into one of our favorite spots and the fish were in a frenzy.  They seemed to be hitting on emergers, since swarms of fish would roil the surface, and you couldn’t see any flies.  Casting into the roils didn’t produce too well.  Eventually, we tried some no hackle hendricksons with a white parachute, and then the action was great until dark.  My partner had a better spot, I think, and is a better fisherman. He caught 5 in half an hour, I had 3.  Largest 16". Also, I heard that the march browns are hatching on the main branch where the water is a little warmer, but the hendricksons are still on the west branch. That’s only word of mouth though. -Jeff

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Question:

Among your goals you forgot.. "protect your feet from hazards of the river and trail".   No sandal can do this without neoprene socks, and neoprene boots are less nuisance than neoprene socks plus something else. Since my Patagonia reef walkers (sock top, felt sole, rubber caps for toe and heel) died, I’ve been using neoprene boots all summer.  When my feet get warm I put them in the water.  When it’s very cold I use neoprene socks under neoprene boots … Mary Shaw

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I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone (anyone who doesn’t work at SGI, that is tried this?  How much do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and overnighters)?

As someone who climbs and kayaks, I would highly discourage the use of rock shoes for kayaking.  Rock shoes have almost no traction on wet rocks.  They are tight and uncomfortable, and they would probably disintegrate under the wet conditions encountered on the river. After experimenting with a number of solutions (Aqua Socks, Wetsuit booties, TEVA sandals with neoprene socks) I have settled on the following solution: neoprene booties with felt soles (ala fly fishing waders).  They give good traction on wet rocks, OK traction on dry rocks, and are comfortable to wear all day in a kayak.  They are available from a number of suppliers – I got mine from Nortwest River Supplies without the felt soles, then glued on the felt soles after I found the ribbed rubber soles to not offer enough traction on wet and mossy rocks. Your mileage may vary. Kurt Bittner       ]"It is not Nature-as-Chaos which threatens us, but the

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There was a rather stupid article about this recently in Outdoor magazine. They seemed to favor manufacturers who advertised in the magazine, rather than those with good products.  For example, they liked Timberland sandals, despite leather that wouldn’t survive constant wetting, and flimsy velcro that would come loose even in a class II swim. Whitewater footwear must meet a variety of often contradictory goals:  o Sometimes it must be warm, sometimes it must be cool and dry fast.    Neoprene booties meet the first goal, but are terrible in hot weather,    especially for side hikes.  Soggy sneakers feel awful by end of day.    Only Teva-style sandals with optional neoprene socks meet both goals.  o Easy to put on and take off, but must be secure during a big "swim".    Neoprene booties with side zippers are the best compromise, but the    zipper can fail and cold water penetrates there.  If you can tuck in    the rear velcro, toe-loop Tevas are more secure in a swim than Teva    Universals, which have three velcro sections to come loose.  o Good traction on wet rocks, good traction for climbing on side hikes.    Felt soles are best on wet rocks, whereas tread patterns are best on    side hikes.  A good compromise would be flat stealth rubber.  Sneakers    or light hiking boots with wetsocks are a good choice.  Oddly enough,    Tevas have better all-around traction after the tread wears down.  o Stiffness and lateral support for hiking, flexibility for kayaking.    Neoprene booties are terrible on long hikes, but great for footpegs.    Toe-loop Tevas provide more lateral support than sandals that surround    the foot, but 2-toe wetsocks are neither warm nor comfortable, plus    toe loops are not adjustable. The Teva 5.10 Approach seems to be the best product available, but costs around $80.  Available either toe-loop or around-the-foot. It has buckles instead of velcro, and stealth rubber soles, unfortunately with pattern. Stealth rubber wears out fast.  Cheapskates can always have regular Tevas resoled, and use safety pins on the velcro. Some guides like Alp sandals, but I hate them.  They’re very difficult to put on, and every time I take a swim, the front strap comes off.  The soles are very slippery on sand-covered dry rock.  They’re much better now that the tread has worn off but the nylon straps are badly frayed after only two seasons. Sierra Hi-Trax sandals are worth looking at.  They have buckles instead of velcro, appear to wear longer than any alternative, and cost much less. I haven’t tried them yet.  The soles are patterned rubber.  Several designs are available, including toe-loop and diagonal strap models.

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Best thing I’ve found is neoprene boots with felt soles. The felt is the same stuff fishermen use on the soles of their waders to provide good footing on slippery rocks. For summer, I used to wear the Patagonia one-toed things with felt sole and a sock-like top that came up about as high as an athletic sock.  Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find them since Tevas and the water slippers came out.  Now I wear the neoprene/felt boots all year. Mary Shaw

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Prijon makes a kayaking shoe which I hear is awfully expensive ($150?). They’re red/yellow and look really funny, and I was way jealous of my companions who had them on our last portage fest. cheers, scott smay

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 (Jon Beck) writes:  (David Elliott) writes:

  I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear?    Nothing I’ve ever used comes close to Tevas. I use the original model  with the thong between 1st and 2nd toes, as they’re much more secure  on the foot. I’ve used Tevas for years but just got a pair of Alps at REI.  They stay on better and seem just as sticky.  The price was about the same. bob maccione..

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I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? Nothing I’ve ever used comes close to Tevas. I use the original model with the thong between 1st and 2nd toes, as they’re much more secure on the foot. In the summer, I wear them alone. In cold weather, I wear one-toed neoprene socks from Northwest River Supply under them. In *cold* weather, I wear them over my sewn-in drysuit feet. Jon Beck, SoRReL Project GRA

        I prefer ALPS sandals, since they have adjustable plastic buckles rather than Velcro.  The Velcro on my Tevas would give up when they got covered in sand or mud (fills up the loops).  Also, the Velcro will pull loose when you rub the foot against something, or have to swim/wade strong currents.  Your mileage may vary. — Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab

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What about Tevas (or clones)?  Actual Tevas have soles made by 5.10, my clones (Boulder Sandal Company) are still pretty good.

I’ve tried my Tevas in the boat, but I’m not happy with them for two reasons: 1. The soles don’t flex very much (compared to the wetsuit booties I usually use) making it difficult to maneuver my feet around.  It’s not easy to get them off the footbraces and into the "rest" position I use for drifting. But that’s not much of a big deal compared to… 2. I’m concerned that the straps on the Tevas might catch on the footbraces at just the wrong time.  If I had bulkhead-style footbraces, this wouldn’t be an issue; but with the Yakima pegs it could be a problem. —Rsk

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I prefer the neoprene boots.  I understand that the instructors at NOC like the Alps for much of what they do, except for kayaking.  They apparently are concerned with snagging the straps on footbraces, tree limbs, etc.

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David Elliott: I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? My current favorite is the Deep See zippered boot ..

This is what I use.  They work great.  I have the Coral Kings. If its real slippery rock, go barefoot. A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.

Don’t work when they are wet, and are expensive ~100 clams. Ilana Stern: …and not enough of a sole [rock climbing shoes] to push against footpegs.

This doesn’t wash, I kayak barefoot all the time. What about Tevas (or clones)?

Soles don’t bend very well to fit into kayaks.  I find them uncomfortable in kayaks, but wear them all the time otehrwise. –Chris

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I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone (anyone who doesn’t work at SGI, that is tried this?  How much do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and overnighters)?

Ack!  Expensive, uncomfortable, and not enough of a sole to push against footpegs.  I suppose Five-Tennies would be a possibility — they’re snug sneakers made by the climbing shoe company 5.10, and they have a sole made of climbing-shoe rubber.  Dry rocks they grip fine, wet rocks…a bit better than sneakers, but not great.  They are about $58-$70 depending on sales.  By way of contrast, climbing shoes, which strike me as being the ultimate in inappropriate footwear for rafting or kayaking, are rarely less than $100.   Any other suggestions?  It might be useful to put together a chart based on weather and river conditions, so include that type of information.

What about Tevas (or clones)?  Actual Tevas have soles made by 5.10, my clones (Boulder Sandal Company) are still pretty good. I wear them over Ragg socks when it’s cold (I have the kind that don’t stick something between toes).   — /        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they

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I’m looking for suggestions on whitewater footwear? My current favorite is the Deep See zippered boot (similar to the Ocean Edge, but better for us folks with wide feet), which is great until you need to scout in slippery gorges.  I even have a larger pair of these that I can use in the colder season when I need to wear extra socks. I’ve also tried standard athletic shoes with various types of socks (from polyester to neoprene), and these are no better for me on rocks or in the river, and aren’t as warm to me. A couple of people have suggested rock climbing shoes.  Has anyone (anyone who doesn’t work at SGI, that is tried this?  How much do these cost?  How well do they grip both wet and dry rocks?  Are they comfortable enough to wear on long trips (both long days and overnighters)? Any other suggestions?  It might be useful to put together a chart based on weather and river conditions, so include that type of information.

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