Question:

   I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

It depends upon how big the river is. If it’s pretty big, try to go to the opposite side of the water. If it’s small, I’d hold upstream a little and actually ask the fisherman. No spot on the river will actually be a good one for you, but some might be better than others. I’m doing most of my fishing on an urban reservoir now. The jetskiers and water skiers are becoming something of a problem. It’s illegal to operate one fast enough to create a wake within 150′ of a shore fisherman, but a number of them don’t seem to care. Maybe I should tuck my coupon book into my tackle box when I’m fishing. "No, sir, I wasn’t goofing off. I was conducting a stakeout for unsafe boating practices!" And I’m soooo sure he’d buy that. You spam my account, I nuke your ass. Simple enough.

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I myself have been thinking of buying a canoe for fishing those waters where access is not very good and the waters too small for my jon boat. As far as having a canoe or kayak pass over the fish, and then waiting for them to recover, I’m sure the recovery period is a lot less than having a Bayliner with a couple of jerks on skis, or a couple of PWC (jet-skis) put your fish down. Some of the lakes I fish are so tore up from these inconsiderate morons, that the weeds are floating for several hours or days after a busy weekend. I could be fishing in a small bay and the idiots will have a whole lake to ski on, and for some reason they just have to find their way into that bay I’m fishing to scare the fish. No wonder I think of bringing the Ruger  with me when I fish. <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    <

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As somebody who has been hit, almost hit and chased from the stream by a "fiberglass hatch" of jerks, I’d like to add my two cents worth.  While being hit is not tolerable, we  may as well get used to kayaks and  canoes.  Actually, I would like to get  one or the other to fish streams with  limited shore access.  I think that fish  in a water with lots of canoe&kayak  traffic have to recover quickly after one  passes over.  They’d starve otherwise.  Greg.

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And why clip off the fly?? Some of those inconsiderate jerks would look nice with a royal wolff for and earring… <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    <

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pack a .44 magnum in your vest pocket. Take your testosterone powered bass buggy somewhere else.  To pull out even a sling-shot could cost you more than you can imagine.  Clipping off the fly and "accidentally" false casting close to the ear, now that may deliver the message without making a victim of the offender. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!!

Response:

Couldn’t have said it better myownself.  <g PC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stay as far away as possible Hi,    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated. Just got back from the AuSable in Michigan (TR to follow.)  Here’s a bit more into on the aluminum/fiberglass hatch and spooking fish.  On Saturday, the temperature was in the high 80’s and the humidex was off the dial.  Every bubba and his bubbette was rafting, kayaking, and canoeing down the AuSable right in front of the Gates Lodge.  A body couldn’t squeeze a cast in between boats.  Just downstream from Gates is the pullout point for the rentals and it siphons off about 95% of the bubba traffic (of which I became one on Sunday, but more on that later.)  On Sunday, a front had blown through bringing rain, high winds and much colder temps.  This took care of the vast majority of the canoeists (except for yours truly and his bubbette.)  By the evening, I’m back on the water in my rightful position – standing in it not floating on it, and above the pullout point, I couldn’t buy a strike.  Below the pullout there were plenty of fish.  A full 24 hrs. after the bubba hatch, those upstream were still spooked.  I spoke to the store owner this morning and he confirmed that a good bubba hatch will drive the fish down for quite a while. Maybe the occasional boat won’t shake things up much but it looks like a steady bubba hatch will put fish off for quite a while – at least 24 hrs. or more if this experience is anything to go by. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

– Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

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Maybe they could ferry my Power Bait to a hole I can’t reach from the bank.

Now that the State no longer stocks catchables in streams and rivers, you don’t still use Powerbait, do you? From what I’ve seen, it’s not very effective for streambred fish. Willi

Response:

Hi,    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

Just got back from the AuSable in Michigan (TR to follow.)  Here’s a bit more into on the aluminum/fiberglass hatch and spooking fish.  On Saturday, the temperature was in the high 80’s and the humidex was off the dial.  Every bubba and his bubbette was rafting, kayaking, and canoeing down the AuSable right in front of the Gates Lodge.  A body couldn’t squeeze a cast in between boats.  Just downstream from Gates is the pullout point for the rentals and it siphons off about 95% of the bubba traffic (of which I became one on Sunday, but more on that later.)  On Sunday, a front had blown through bringing rain, high winds and much colder temps.  This took care of the vast majority of the canoeists (except for yours truly and his bubbette.)  By the evening, I’m back on the water in my rightful position – standing in it not floating on it, and above the pullout point, I couldn’t buy a strike.  Below the pullout there were plenty of fish.  A full 24 hrs. after the bubba hatch, those upstream were still spooked.  I spoke to the store owner this morning and he confirmed that a good bubba hatch will drive the fish down for quite a while. Maybe the occasional boat won’t shake things up much but it looks like a steady bubba hatch will put fish off for quite a while – at least 24 hrs. or more if this experience is anything to go by. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Stay as far away as possible – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated. Just got back from the AuSable in Michigan (TR to follow.)  Here’s a bit more into on the aluminum/fiberglass hatch and spooking fish.  On Saturday, the temperature was in the high 80’s and the humidex was off the dial.  Every bubba and his bubbette was rafting, kayaking, and canoeing down the AuSable right in front of the Gates Lodge.  A body couldn’t squeeze a cast in between boats.  Just downstream from Gates is the pullout point for the rentals and it siphons off about 95% of the bubba traffic (of which I became one on Sunday, but more on that later.)  On Sunday, a front had blown through bringing rain, high winds and much colder temps.  This took care of the vast majority of the canoeists (except for yours truly and his bubbette.)  By the evening, I’m back on the water in my rightful position – standing in it not floating on it, and above the pullout point, I couldn’t buy a strike.  Below the pullout there were plenty of fish.  A full 24 hrs. after the bubba hatch, those upstream were still spooked.  I spoke to the store owner this morning and he confirmed that a good bubba hatch will drive the fish down for quite a while. Maybe the occasional boat won’t shake things up much but it looks like a steady bubba hatch will put fish off for quite a while – at least 24 hrs. or more if this experience is anything to go by. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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I think if they’d just show their tits it would solve a lot or problems. — The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

 While being hit is not tolerable, we  may as well get used to kayaks and  canoes.  Actually, I would like to get  one or the other to fish streams with  limited shore access.  I think that fish  in a water with lots of canoe&kayak  traffic have to recover quickly after one  passes over.  They’d starve otherwise.

Maybe they could ferry my Power Bait to a hole I can’t reach from the bank. — TBone Walker The Halfordian Golfer

Response:

(copied from above) Afraid I can’t offer a real plan for dealing with these folks.  There doesn’t seem to be a reasonable, effective response. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!!

Just showing you a reasonable, EFFECTIVE response. And if you can’t find the humor in what I posted… <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    <

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pack a .44 magnum in your vest pocket. Take your testosterone powered bass buggy somewhere else.  To pull out even a sling-shot could cost you more than you can imagine.  Clipping off the fly and "accidentally" false casting close to the ear, now that may deliver the message without making a victim of the offender. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!!

Response:

Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated. Best thing wood be to merely take a break as your canoein’ friends pass by!! It’s NOT really all that big of a deal when you think about it! trout — I come here for the education, I stay for the amusement. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

Response:

I’m with you on this one. Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated. Best thing wood be to merely take a break as your canoein’ friends pass by!! It’s NOT really all that big of a deal when you think about it! trout — I come here for the education, I stay for the amusement. Hi,    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

Response:

Pack a .44 magnum in your vest pocket.

Take your testosterone powered bass buggy somewhere else.  To pull out even a sling-shot could cost you more than you can imagine.  Clipping off the fly and "accidentally" false casting close to the ear, now that may deliver the message without making a victim of the offender. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!!

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These two rules I agree with 1,000,000,000,000 % ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    <

                               (snip – snip) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rule #4 – when you ruin my day as you float by,  don’t smile and say, "How’s the fishing?"  I’m likely to tell you. Rule #5 – if you’re planning a big event that’ll take over a river, publicize it at the local fishing shops – then I’ll know to stay home.

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Pack a .44 magnum in your vest pocket. <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    <

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never seem to have a problem with kayakers who are fishing.  They seem to be the more knowledgable.  Canoeist tend to be worse and the very worst are the fairly new and occasional recreation kayakers. I’ve actually had these later types paddle over from across 200 feet of river and paddle around me while asking about the fishing.  They just seemed to want to get the most out of their "wilderness" experience.  No amount of verbal abuse shakes these types, they just get their nose out of joint because you made their day less pleasant. Tubers are totally self-absorbed and could care less about anything or anyone else on the water.  Nothing you can do or say, short of causing yourself a good deal of trouble, has any influence on this crowd. What really torques me about most of these people is that the waters I fish which also supports floaters, is plenty big for rafters, boaters, and tubers to pass well away from the few wading fishermen they pass. Afraid I can’t offer a real plan for dealing with these folks.  There doesn’t seem to be a reasonable, effective response. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!!

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I never seem to have a problem with kayakers who are fishing.  They seem to be the more knowledgable.  Canoeist tend to be worse and the very worst are the fairly new and occasional recreation kayakers. I’ve actually had these later types paddle over from across 200 feet of river and paddle around me while asking about the fishing.  They just seemed to want to get the most out of their "wilderness" experience.  No amount of verbal abuse shakes these types, they just get their nose out of joint because you made their day less pleasant. Tubers are totally self-absorbed and could care less about anything or anyone else on the water.  Nothing you can do or say, short of causing yourself a good deal of trouble, has any influence on this crowd. What really torques me about most of these people is that the waters I fish which also supports floaters, is plenty big for rafters, boaters, and tubers to pass well away from the few wading fishermen they pass. Afraid I can’t offer a real plan for dealing with these folks.  There doesn’t seem to be a reasonable, effective response. Wayne to fish is human….to release Divine!!!

Response:

I prefer to pass farther away (I paddle mostly where bait casters are), but if that line is going to put me in a bad current or into a power boat lane, I’ll just apologize and go by the fisherman.  As a fisherperson myself, I don’t worry too much about spooking the fish. I have observed them while fishing in very clear waters, while swimming, and while just siting around.  Unless there’s a real overabundance of fishermen, in which case the paddlers have little to do with it, they will spook, but will be back in 5 to 10 minutes.   I’ve tried to spook some wild (for many decades of generations.  No stocking done in at least 20 years, maybe more like 40) trout in a fairly heavily fished stream at one of the most popular pools (It was a late Sunday afternoon and I was the only one there, btw.).  Only way I’ve found it can be done is to stand up and skyline yourself.  Noise? No problem. Vibrations on the bank?  No problem.  Swinging your arms around?  Flailing your lure wildly?  No problem.  Let them see you standing up, even a child standing up, and they’re gone.  For as long as their tiny brains can remember danger versus food.  About 5 to 10 minutes on average.  Bream and Walleye and Pike vary.  Bream are about 5 minutes, Walleye and Pike about 15.  I have no clue on Bass.  Bass tend to be under cover and hard to watch, even in very clear water. Carp and Suckers are about 5 to 10.   Now if you’re going down a popular paddling river and there’s a canoe passing the fisherman every 10 to 20 minutes or less, yes, it’ll be bad for him.  Not earth shaking where I am as I tend to fish and paddle in MN and WI, where there are lots of places to do both or either.  The very few relatively crowded trout rivers I’ve gone on do not have paddlers (well, I did once see some tourons risking hypothermia in the evening in a rubber raft.  That water is cold* and they had no warm or dry gear along.).  If, however, I went to the Montana mountain streams to trout fish, I’d be a bit bummed to have some wild paddling action going on all over the river.   But if I were on one of the kayaking rivers out East (Natuhala? Something like that) I’d be checking for dam releases and going somewhere else when there were some, because it’d be nothing but ‘yaks and rafts and inflatables all day long.  I’d rather not fish than spend my day getting pissed off.  Then again, I tend to drive the speed limit or under and stay in the right hand lane, just to preserve my temper. Hi,    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

— rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless http://www.visi.com/~cyli

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Hi,    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

Somebody else has already pointed out, we don’t "share" the water with kayakers – they have it – we leave. As somebody who has been hit, almost hit and chased from the stream by a "fiberglass hatch" of jerks, I’d like to add my two cents worth.   Rule #1 – go behind the angler – the fish are in front of him. Rule #2 – go somewhere else.  I’m not being facetious.  Anglers are constrained by a large number of factors, fishing regulations, private property, water conditions, etc.  OTOH, a kayaker can go anywhere there’s enough water to float his boat.  Don’t float prime fishing water during the best part of the fishing season.  There’s plenty of other water for you to use. Rule #3 – Learn to control your boat.  The dickhead that ran into me could’ve broken my leg. Rule #4 – when you ruin my day as you float by,  don’t smile and say, "How’s the fishing?"  I’m likely to tell you. Rule #5 – if you’re planning a big event that’ll take over a river, publicize it at the local fishing shops – then I’ll know to stay home. HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Ken, Now it’s bothering me.  I know that I’ve heard or read your name before.  Do you post elsewhere? Thanks, Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doug Hall Doug,      You don’t by any chance teach at Portland State do you?      - Ken

Response:

Doug Hall

Doug,      You don’t by any chance teach at Portland State do you?      - Ken

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in my part of the world,(SW Va.)there are many float fishermen. When floating and fishing should the boat give right of way to the wading fisherman? I think so…the float fisherman will cover a helluva lot more water than the one wading. It rarely happens though. I too have had jerks come way to close to me throwing them damn rackety ass buzz baits. Makes for some well placed false casts, if you know what I mean. Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so  as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated. On a large enough river, it’s best if you stay as far away as possible. Most of the time, a fisherman will be casting to a fish less than 40 feet away.   On a smaller river, where the fisherman can easily cast to either bank, it ain’t gonna matter.  Not only your shadow, but any noise or water disturbance will spook a wary fish.    Just pass by as smoothly and quietly as possible with an apologetic "I’m sorry I f*cked up your pool" expression on your face.   Although we realize we sometimes have to share a river with other uses, it’s not really sharing.   Kayakers can paddle where we fish, but we can’t fish where they paddle.   Thanks for asking. Joe F.

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Michael, Lets see, if you only go down the river between the hours of 8:30 to 9:15 a.m.  and then we’ll allow you another 12 minutes in the afternoon, unless there’s a hatch going on.  Other than that, stay off our rivers, because flyfishing is the ONLY acceptable use for all rivers:).  No, but really, just the fact that you are trying to be polite and a simple "excuse me" or any normal courtesy should do.  Just like passing someone in a small hallway.  I’m sure that there will be those who feel that they have exclusive right to the river (and I’m also sure that I will hear from them) but even flyfisherman have to share the river.  Maybe we should be apologizing for blocking the whole damn river with our casting?  I think that some people should take their sports a little less serious.  It’s supposed to be about fun, and if a fish gets put down occasionally, oh well. It’s happened to me more than a few times. I got over it and so will they. Thanks for asking. Doug Hall

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,     I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

Response:

    I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

On a large enough river, it’s best if you stay as far away as possible. Most of the time, a fisherman will be casting to a fish less than 40 feet away.   On a smaller river, where the fisherman can easily cast to either bank, it ain’t gonna matter.  Not only your shadow, but any noise or water disturbance will spook a wary fish.    Just pass by as smoothly and quietly as possible with an apologetic "I’m sorry I f*cked up your pool" expression on your face.   Although we realize we sometimes have to share a river with other uses, it’s not really sharing.   Kayakers can paddle where we fish, but we can’t fish where they paddle.   Thanks for asking. Joe F.

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Couldn’t have said it better myself ! ! ! ! ! <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    <

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated. On a large enough river, it’s best if you stay as far away as possible. Most of the time, a fisherman will be casting to a fish less than 40 feet away.   On a smaller river, where the fisherman can easily cast to either bank, it ain’t gonna matter.  Not only your shadow, but any noise or water disturbance will spook a wary fish.    Just pass by as smoothly and quietly as possible with an apologetic "I’m sorry I f*cked up your pool" expression on your face.   Although we realize we sometimes have to share a river with other uses, it’s not really sharing.   Kayakers can paddle where we fish, but we can’t fish where they paddle.   Thanks for asking. Joe F.

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Hi,     I was wondering what fishermen actually prefer from kayakers and canoeists.  When paddling down stream, is it better for us to move to the opposite bank (furthest from you) or is it better to pass close to you so as not to spook fish?  Any suggestions or guidelines would be greatly appreciated.

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Question:

I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

Response:

 Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King?

Especially when caddis are hatching, once the fly begins to drag I submerge it, give it slack and fish it like a downstream wet.  Get lots of fish during the swing and even hanging directly downstream.  These are usually smaller fish.  The better fish I’ve caught on the pattern have been fish tight against the bank that hit the fly when partially submerged. Willi

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You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction! Frank (coppin’ out) Church

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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You might be right Warren, I’ve called in the FBI to have the box and all those little buggers checked for fingerprints…but if the miscreant who removed those tags wuz wearin’ expensive Italian shoes and blood-soaked gloves, we’ll never get a conviction!

Or what if it was Richard Jewel?  They’ll never prove Bubba did it! <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps)

Thanks Frank.  I will keep investigating to see who it was that didn’t tag their flies.  It wasn’t me, because I had mine all tagged.  I spent a lot of time tagging those damn things so if they arrived without tags it must have been the postal service and their latest anti-terrorism technology that made them disappear. Of course the flies were probably damaged too during the process, so keep that in mind.<g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either.

Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them.  I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either.  For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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That’s OK Warren, the old tired grey swapmeister will tag ‘em for ya both, I love helping out those less fortunate than me. )….."and barbless hooks don’t help anything either"….shoulda been one of these there  :-) (I gotta take longer naps) OTGS

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. Well Wolfie, you aren’t the only one that bagged them without taggin’ them. I know there was another dirty, rotten s.o.b. out there that didn’t do it either. For the life of me I can’t remember his name or what he tied, but I know he is out there <g Warren X#-[ Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude….

Thank you Willi.  And now that you have made everyone aware of the distinctions between the Rio Grande King and my own humble offering NOBODY has any excuse to confuse it with anything else that arrives in their goody boxes!  Incidentally, I have caught many fish on the Pass Lake by just letting it hang in the current downstream while watching a partner fish.  Any similar experience with the Rio Grande King? Wolfgang who is hoping oh so fervently that he will be able to put his fly swap rejects to work this weekend!

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Good idea posting the recipe Wolfgang.  BTW – I made my tags stay on by coating the paper front and back with scotch(tm) tape. Here is the recipe for the Teco Bug (or Teko Bug – I’ve seen it spelled both ways). The Teco Bug was originated about 40 years by Dick Blair and some other guys long who fish the Westfield River here in Western Massachusetts.  The lower stretches of the river have lots of dragonfly nymphs and we think this fly imitates those and probably stonefly nymphs and the Isonychia.  Dick ties these in sizes 4 through 8, usually unweighted and never with a bead.  Most other people I know will either add lead or a bead head.  The ones I tied are on a size 8 Mustad 3906B nymph hook.  I also tie mine sparser and smaller than Dick.  He does two layers of the underfur before adding the guard hairs – he makes really fat buggy nymphs and has been very successful with those for lots of years.  I don’t fish the main stem of the Westfield, preferring the smaller feeder branches, and I think the sparser version does better up there and also in the ponds I fish.  Fish the Teco as a nymph (up and across, dead drift, and use an indicator if you want).  We also fish these like a streamer, down and across with short strips at the end of the swing, especially when fishing the Isonychia drift in August.  The name Teco (Teko) comes from Tekoa Mountain, a big rocky hill overlooking the Westfield River where Dick likes to fish. Bead Head Teco Bug No tail Thread: Danville 6/0 waxed, color to match fur Hook: Mustad 3906B or similar, size 4 through 12 (I usually use size Bead: cyclops eye (size to fit hook, 1/8" is good on a size Underbody: snowshoe hare body fur underfur Overbody: snowshoe hare guard hair (see description below) Wing: mallard flank feather Method: We tie these in silver (silver bead, gray fur, natural mallard), brown (silver or brass bead, brown fur, mallard dyed wood duck, or real wood duck if you have them) and olive (olive dyed rabbit, brass bead, olive dyed mallard). Put the bead on the hook.  You probably need to pinch down the barb. Coat shank well with thread back to the hook bend.  You can lock in the bead with thread, but I usually just build up a ball of dubbing.  For the sparse version, bring the thread up to the head.  For the fat version, bring the thread back to the hook bend. Cut off several bunches of fur (six is about right for a size and separate the underfur from the guard hairs.  This is critical to the fly – using blended dubbing and picking out guard hairs does not give a buggy enough appearance.  Swap hands so you are pinching the fur at the cut end and pinch the guardhairs with the thumb and forefinger of the other hand. Pull out the guard hairs and stack in neat piles for later use.  Tease out the piles of underfur and mix. Dub the underfur mixture and wrap a fairly cylindrical body.  The fat version does two layers of dubbing.  Both versions should end with the thread at the hook bend. The guard hairs are applied either by waxing the thread and dabbing the hairs on loosely, or by using a dubbing loop.  I prefer using a little wax and just sticking on the hairs.  If you’re using pre-waxed thread and you have the right touch, no additional wax is necessary.  Don’t spin them tight.  Wrap the guard hair dubbing up to the eye.  The idea is to apply all six bunches fairly evenly.  You should have lots of spiky hair sticking out in all directions.  If necessary, brush out more hairs with a piece of velcro. The mallard flank wing should use a symmetrical rounded feather.  Pick a decent feather and strip off the fluffy section.  The feather should extend about 1/2 hook shank length past the bend.  Wet your fingers and stroke the barbules to compact them.  Dick Blair just puts the feather in his mouth to wet it and pulls it through his lips to compact it – use your own judgement. Take two or three loose wraps of thread over the feather and position the feather, then pull the stem to bring the barbules under the wraps.  This further compacts the feather.  When it looks right, take a few tighter wraps to secure the feather. Make a wing case by taking the thread back about 1/4" under the feather and taking two loose wraps.  Then bring the thread back to the head and tie off. –Stan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake:

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<snip Apparently my spell checker doesn’t care about obviously stupid headers or it is deliberately out to get me.

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Well, OK Wolfie..I’ll forgive you just this once, but all you really needed to do was put yer moniker and the name of the fly on the tag.  I can see why the tag would be the size of a legal paper with all that recipe on it. And barbless hooks don’t help anything either. YOT&GS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

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Actually the fly is very similar to a Rio Grande King or Rio Grande Trude, a fly that was very popular about 25 years ago in Colorado and Wyoming. The Rio Grande traditionally has a golden tinsel tag and the tail is made of golden pheasant tippets, but there were many variations. I tie mine very similar to your Pass Creek, but use brown hackle for the tail (one less material to get out) and I often tie it on a 2X long hook. I also like the versatility of this fly.  Like you stated, it can be fished dry, damp or wet and can be fished dead drift or with various amount of action. Locally it has seemed to have fallen out of favor. It is one of several "old" patterns that I use that have been replaced by more modern, but not necessarily better, patterns. These "old" patterns, aside from being good flies in their own right, can sometimes turn the trick on fish that have seen alot of flies. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve never been very good at following instructions.  I tried putting a tag on each of the flies I tied for the swap but it got to be an unholy mess with all those itty bitty pieces of paper, especially since I used barbless hooks.  So, I decided that I would simply identify my contribution here for all those due to receive one. Pass Lake: Fine black chenille body on a size 14 standard dry fly hook.  The tail is mallard flank clipped short just behind the bend.  Three turns of brown hackle.  White calf tail wing tied trude style.  I can’t imagine anyone having any difficulty identifying the pass lake based on this description…….it doesn’t even vaguely resemble anything else I have ever seen.  I would be much surprised if it could be confused with anyone else’s contribution.  Besides, it should be the only one you get without a tag on it.    :) This is allegedly a dry fly, but with the chenille body it tends to absorb water readily.  In fact, it floats or sinks pretty much at its own discretion.  However, it has proven very effective for me whether floating high and dry, floundering in the meniscus, or completely submerged.  Not only does it not resemble any other fly I have ever seen, but the same can be said for its affinity to anything that has ever lived in a lake or stream.  Nevertheless, both trout and bluegills (and all their kin) take it readily.  Dead drifting, skittering across the surface, slow retrieve or twitching below the surface, and simply hanging in the current have all worked at various time under a variety of conditions. Any experienced tier should have no trouble figuring out how to put this one together.  One important note though:  calf tail is very slippery; don’t try to make a small neat head on this one.  I make the heads relatively long and thick in order to get a lot of thread holding the wing in place.  Be very liberal in this regard or you will find the calf tail falling out.  Newbies feel free to email me for specific instructions. Sorry Frank, I tried to be good!

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Question:

I’m getting away from DC for a weekend soon.  Any recommendations for a good fly fishing spot near the Blue Ridge in VA or WV?  Thanks.

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J. A nice weekend would be one of three places.  Closest to you would be a B&B in Edinburgh Va. over in the Valley.  Harry Murray’s fly shop is there and he can direct you to Big Stony Creek and others.  Next closest would be Warm Springs VA. about 3.5 hours away.  For cheap lodging I recommend the Roselow Motel.  About $40 or$50 a night and nice accommodations.  Try the Steak house across the street next to the high school.  To fish head to the Poor Farm Road (Rt. 621) area of the Jackson River.  Follow the road to the end (becomes dirt) and park at the LAST possible parking area.  Hike about 1/2 mile south along the river to the Special Regs. section.  Lastly try Damascus Va.  About 6 hours away.  So many streams I can’t list them all. Try the South Fork of the Holston or Laurel Creek.  Two trout streams converge in town.  Several nice B&B’s in town.  Now, Stay the hell off the Rappahannock this weekend!  Above Fredericksburg the smallmouth WILL NOT be hitting everything you throw at them.  The water temperature WILL NOT be perfect!  The rains HAVE NOT flushed and oxygenated the water!  The guy flailing the water fruitlessly with terrible casts knows NOTHING about fishing and is a danger to everyone around him.  DO NOT GO THERE!!!!  GO FAR AWAY!! Wayne (from Spotsylvania) To fish is human…to release Divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m getting away from DC for a weekend soon.  Any recommendations for a good fly fishing spot near the Blue Ridge in VA or WV?  Thanks.

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Question:

Folks:         Passed my PPL-SEL in mid May.  Thanks to the kind DE I even learned some more (I had an excellent CFI for my training who was quite good). I am based in SW OH and have a range of around 1000nm.  I am looking for places to go.  Camping/fishing, golfing and other fun things.  I would like to restrict the field to places VERY close to the runway or places which are willing to pick you up and return you to the runway.   Thanks Cruddler

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Take a look at avweb’s site (www.avweb.com).  They have a places to fly section and have some destinations on the East Coast and in the Midwest. Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Folks: Passed my PPL-SEL in mid May.  Thanks to the kind DE I even learned some more (I had an excellent CFI for my training who was quite good). I am based in SW OH and have a range of around 1000nm.  I am looking for places to go.  Camping/fishing, golfing and other fun things.  I would like to restrict the field to places VERY close to the runway or places which are willing to pick you up and return you to the runway. Thanks Cruddler

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Question:

I’ll be in Cork, Ireland the week of May 10th and am trying to decide whether or not to stay a few extra days for some flyfishing for native browns. I ran the standard searches thru dejanews and hotbot and found some interesting March salmon info but not much for May browns. I called the Cork fisheries guy for some info but any suggestions for books or web sites or guides or lodges? Thanks, Doug

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Get hold of PeterO’Reilly’s books on the Rivers; Loughs and Flies of Ireland (all published by Merlin Unwin books). The Suir, in Co. Waterford (east of Co. Cork) is -in many opinions- one of the best wild brown trout rivers in Europe. Try Andrew Ryan at www.flyfishingireland.com Tight lines Tony D – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be in Cork, Ireland the week of May 10th …. etc. (snipped)

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Question:

<<  I wasn’t so much scared, though, as hurt. After all I had done for him the damned squirrel never even looked back.  Anyone out there have similar stories they’d like to share?   I think former President Jimmy Carter had something like that happen while fishing too far from Secret Service agents from providing details. William Buchman

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"No good deed goes unpunished."

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Cute story Joe but that’s not being attacked by a squirrel.  Come on down to the Clave and I’ll show you the scars from REALLY being attacked by a squirrel.  Story too long to post here. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there have similar stories they’d like to share?

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Wayno, swear ta gawd, I never touched ya. Big Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cute story Joe but that’s not being attacked by a squirrel.  Come on down to the Clave and I’ll show you the scars from REALLY being attacked by a squirrel.  Story too long to post here. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. Anyone out there have similar stories they’d like to share?

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No Al, not Wayno, that’s the OTHER Wayne! Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wayno, swear ta gawd, I never touched ya. Big Al Cute story Joe but that’s not being attacked by a squirrel.  Come on down to the Clave and I’ll show you the scars from REALLY being attacked by a squirrel.  Story too long to post here. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. Anyone out there have similar stories they’d like to share?

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Cute story Joe but that’s not being attacked by a squirrel.  Come on down to the Clave and I’ll show you the scars from REALLY being attacked by a squirrel.  Story too long to post here. Wayne

is jimmy c. gonna join us? tell him to bring plenty of peanuts and billy beer. –wataugan walt

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cute story Joe but that’s not being attacked by a squirrel.  Come on down to the Clave and I’ll show you the scars from REALLY being attacked by a squirrel.  Story too long to post here. Wayne is jimmy c. gonna join us? tell him to bring plenty of peanuts and billy beer. –wataugan walt

That was a rabbit that went after old Jimmy. — Charlie…

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doggone this grouse….let me go find my sm, memory is slippin…. –Wataugan Waldo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cute story Joe but that’s not being attacked by a squirrel.  Come on down to the Clave and I’ll show you the scars from REALLY being attacked by a squirrel.  Story too long to post here. Wayne is jimmy c. gonna join us? tell him to bring plenty of peanuts and billy beer. –wataugan walt That was a rabbit that went after old Jimmy. — Charlie…

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 Winter is a lousy time for fishing here in New England. there’s something about that slight two-foot film of ice that inhibits the trout and salmon  rising to your exquisitely presented dry fly; perhaps that slight tap on the head as they slam into the solid wall of ice.  If it’s bad for fishing, though, it’s a great time for contemplating fishing trips of the past. One of my all time favorite days on the water ended without a single fish.  It was one of those perfect fall days when the air is dry and crystal clear, not the best weather for catching but perfect for fishing, if you know what I mean. I was supposed to be at work, but the day was too nice and the feeling of freedom I got from playing hooky from work just added to the enjoyment of the day.  About three miles from the dock I saw something swimming in the water. Stopping to check it out, I found a gray squirrel. He was almost a mile from land and the water was cold. the poor thing swam up to my boat and I could hear it’s claws scraping on the aluminum side as the near-frozen animal tried desperately to get out of the water.  Now I enjoy eating a fish now and then but otherwise consider myself a kindly soul so up picked up my landing net and hoisted the half-frozen rodent out of the water. When I laid it on the seat of my boat it was so cold it just layed there.  Being somewhat foolhardy as well as kindly, I took off my coat, an old Vietnam-era Army jacket, built a nest and placed the cold-cold squirrel inside.  I continued on to my favorite fishing hole and proceeded to cast for smallmouth bass. The sun was getting warmer and the squirrel in my coat would, once in a while let out a little sneeze but was otherwise silent.  After two or three hours of casting, I had totally forgotten about my guest, now comfortably asleep in my coat. I put my rod down and turned to start the motor.  As the motor roared to life, I hard a scrambling sound in back of me and turned to see a gray streak come flying from the front seat, onto the middles seat, onto the small of my back and up my back to the top of my head where it dove off into the water and swam the short 10 feet to shore.  Now I know I was at least 10 miles from the dock but when I returned a couple of the guys there swore they heard me scream.  I wasn’t so much scared, though, as hurt. After all I had done for him the damned squirrel never even looked back.  Anyone out there have similar stories they’d like to share?

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Joe Mitko writes:

(good story mostly snipped) As the motor roared to life, I hard a scrambling sound in back of me and turned to see a gray streak come flying from the front seat, onto the middles seat, onto the small of my back and up my back to the top of my head where it dove off into the water and swam the short 10 feet to shore.

Joe:  great story, but you missed out on some great tying material. Mark Faulkner

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Question:

ya know…spam on rye ain’t half bad but i prefer baloney. –Wataugan Walt

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Guy Well put. Peter        Merry Christmas

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Wataugan Walt: <<ya know…spam on rye ain’t half bad but i prefer baloney. Used to eat it on crackers in the Panama jungle.  Wasn’t bad. Then I was introduced to Vienna Sausage (pronounced – V eye-enna). Now, *that* is some bad shit.   They should call Spam (the unwanted postings/mail) Vienna Sausage.  It would have a helluva lot more meaning.  d;0) Dave L.

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Bit pointless discussing the definition of spam on this NG. However I dont think you will find many who will agree with you especially as far as Bill Kiene is concerned.  And even if he did post a discreet ad, which is a moot point in any case, I prefer that  to someone posting spurious complaints. I may not be able to define spam very accurately, and superfluous anyway as Guy already did a great job of doing so, but I certainly can recognise bullshit when I see it. I liked the bits about Baloney and Vienna sausage as well. I just wish you guys wouldnt choose such hard words to rhyme is all !! Vienna sausage, baloney or spam, to define is a terrible jam, bullshit is easy, it makes you feel queasy, and puts you in need of a dram. So you reckon Bill placed an ad, and you think that that is quite bad, but he gave us some news, and interesting views, complaining at that is just sad. Now Bill is cleverer than most, he just ignored your daft post, he wasnt offended, and was stoutly defended, by the stalwart Roffian host. Mr. Nospam you better cop out, Bill has got far more clout, You never will win, complaining at him, so be a nice guy, leave it out ! Write us a post about flies, perhaps your favourite ties ? or rods reels or lines, but please no more whines, about where to get the best buys. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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Wataugan Walt: <<ya know…spam on rye ain’t half bad but i prefer baloney. Used to eat it on crackers in the Panama jungle.  Wasn’t bad. Then I was introduced to Vienna Sausage (pronounced – V eye-enna). Now, *that* is some bad shit.   They should call Spam (the unwanted postings/mail) Vienna Sausage.  It would have a helluva lot more meaning.  d;0) Dave L.

Vienna weenies are typically serverd at wedding receptions here in GA, but then it’s all family<g. — Charlie…

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Hi: I, too, want to join the list of those who have very nicely differentiated between crap and quality.  Spam is crap, Bill Kiene is quality.  Like almost all of you, I first got to know Bill through his helpful answers on the ng.  In fact, I would always tell my friends that although Bill made no bones about his owning a flyshop, he was a great resource without promoting his business.  Anyway, with the costs involved in our sport, who minds getting an occasional heads-up about how to save money? Furthermore, when I couldn’t get my regular trip to Belize going for next year, and decided to go to heaven (read Christmas Island), I called Bill and signed up for one of his trips.  Why?  Although I live in NJ, I could have just contacted Frontier. But I wanted to say thanks to Bill for all his help. Adam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill Kiene is an unqualified asset to ROFF. : Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam. : : Blech. JonCook. — Fishermen kill fish. This is who we are.

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Vienna weenies are typically serverd at wedding receptions here in GA, but then it’s all family<g. — Charlie…

ahh, a good ole cracker weddin’ with fiddles and some paint removin’ –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Just I’d add my 2 cents worth about Bill Kiene and his shop. I’m a sales rep in the fly fishing industry and call on Bill’s shop in Sacramento.  Bill’s shop is definitely in the top 3 shops in the CA,AZ,NV territory.  On top of that, he is one of the most, if not THE most enjoyable people to deal with.  I’m sure he would welcome your calls for help or advice. Regards, Wes Chormicle

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Just I’d add my 2 cents worth about Bill Kiene and his shop.

I’ll just say that I think Bill is one of the top five posters on this site. His advice is always balanced and on the mark. He has never given up on this ng despite the flame wars and the infinite c&r debate; in his quiet determined way he just continued to dispense solid information. Ralph H

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just I’d add my 2 cents worth about Bill Kiene and his shop. I’ll just say that I think Bill is one of the top five posters on this site. His advice is always balanced and on the mark. He has never given up on this ng despite the flame wars and the infinite c&r debate; in his quiet determined way he just continued to dispense solid information. Ralph H

My sentiments also….. –Walt

Response:

As I have mentioned in previous posts, lots of fly fishing products have been altered or discontinued. This is a great time to get that new rod, reel, waders, pontoon boat, etc that you have been looking for. Much of this equipment is great stuff at great prices. Check you local fly tackle retailer or the internet for bargains. We have just purchased a ‘ton’ of discontinued fly rods from the Powell Rod Company. These are all ‘98 model rods that are being replaced by total redesigned new generation 1999 fly rods at the new Powell Rod plant in Sacramento, CA. Take a look at out web site for a complete list of these great rods at 50% off of retail prices. (www.kiene.com) Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

You may also want to check the following website www.bennettspring.com . Tight Lines Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I have mentioned in previous posts, lots of fly fishing products have been altered or discontinued. This is a great time to get that new rod, reel, waders, pontoon boat, etc that you have been looking for. Much of this equipment is great stuff at great prices. Check you local fly tackle retailer or the internet for bargains. We have just purchased a ‘ton’ of discontinued fly rods from the Powell Rod Company. These are all ‘98 model rods that are being replaced by total redesigned new generation 1999 fly rods at the new Powell Rod plant in Sacramento, CA. Take a look at out web site for a complete list of these great rods at 50% off of retail prices. (www.kiene.com) Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam. Blech.

Response:

Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam. Blech.

Bill Kiene is a frequent and very knowledgeable contributor to ROFF. I always read his posts because they are likely to contain something very interesting. I’ve been to his shop in Sacramento. It’s a very good shop, and his employees were quite helpful. I don’t think this rises to the level of spam. Bill made a suggestion that now is the time to look for cheap discontinued equipment, wherever you like to shop. He clearly know what he’s talking about. That’s a suggestion many people can take advantage of. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

Bill Kiene is a frequent and very knowledgeable contributor to ROFF. I always read his posts because they are likely to contain something very interesting. I’ve been to his shop in Sacramento. It’s a very good shop, and his employees were quite helpful. I don’t think this rises to the level of spam. Bill made a suggestion that now is the time to look for cheap discontinued equipment, wherever you like to shop. He clearly know what he’s talking about. That’s a suggestion many people can take advantage of.

I agree wholeheartedly. I’ve never been to Bill’s shop (obviously, living on another continent), but I value his contributions to ROFF, and he is definitely not spamming. On a side note, I think Bill does an excellent job of combining his business with usenet. Posting insightful articles combined with subtle and relevant only mention of his business, yet never attempting to hide the fact that he runs a flyfishing busniess, and taking great care to address the subject at hand and not simply advertising, is the only way to do it. Usenet presence is, IMO, also a reasonable accurate predictor of customer satisfaction. If Bill ripped people off for a living, it’ll be all over ROFF. I’d be happy to do business with Bill. Btw, my local dealer here in Norway has had a 50% discount on 1998 Powell rods for a few months now. Still don’t want one of those soft sticks  :-) — Christian Figenschou – http://figen.com

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I third that notion — IMHO, Bill Kiene is a very valuable resource for this NG.  I know he’s answered a ton of my questions. I always look forward to reading his posts. Sid in Seattle

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Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam.

Bill Kiene is a valuable contributor to ROFF. I read his excellent posts carefully as he obviously knows exactly what he is talking about and how to explain it. His insights into some products and his recommendations are of considerable value, and he is as unbiased about various products as it is possible to be as far as I can see. It is unlikely that I will ever visit his shop, it is a bit too far away, which is a shame, as I assume from his posts that it must be quite excellent.  He has never made a secret of the fact that he runs a fly fishing related business, and the little bit of advertising he does is always discrete and his posts always on topic.  I do not think many on ROFF would consider this SPAM.  Just as a matter of interest Mr.Nospam, when can we expect a valuable contribution on ROFF from you ? Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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Sniff, sniff.  Yup, smells like spam.

I too have found Mr. Kiene’s posts to be accurate, to the point, and informative. Few of us will ever patronize his shop, and if he occasionally mentions his business on ROFF, I have absolutely no problem with it. George Adams

Response:

Bill Kiene is a valuable contributor to ROFF.

I’ll add my voice to the chorus too Mike. I look for Bill’s posts. He’s worth reading. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach, Florida "The beach? Only poor people go to the beach!  The truly impoverished own boats." – Capt. Gary to Ms. Dawn

Response:

I agree wholeheartedly!!!! Bill keane has been of great help to newbies and oldies alike and I feel that he is simply passing on information and not trying to sell a product here people might want to be looking for new and then in the caseof us newbies who dont even have a rod what’s wrong with some advice from a seasoned store owner with some experience?? Keep it up Bill I am on your side. Pierre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill Kiene is a frequent and very knowledgeable contributor to ROFF. I always read his posts because they are likely to contain something very interesting. I’ve been to his shop in Sacramento. It’s a very good shop, and his employees were quite helpful. I don’t think this rises to the level of spam. Bill made a suggestion that now is the time to look for cheap discontinued equipment, wherever you like to shop. He clearly know what he’s talking about. That’s a suggestion many people can take advantage of. — something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I just wanted to add that my friend bought me a Redington that I could have never of afforded when it Florida with a "fall closeout"deal. The same rod selling in Canada I could have never afforded believe me and yet when he purchased it as a gift in US dollars it was a steal even with the exchange rate! Nope be glad to hear of close out deals especially with people like Bill Pierre

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Nope.  He ran an ad.  It was spam. Incidentally a friend of mine bought one of Kiene’s discontinued "new" rods and it came with a scratched up blank and the wrong tube/sock. So be careful and ask for all the details before buying.  You get what you pay for and there isn’t always full disclosure.  Not just Bill’s shop but I’ve heard horror stories from some of the other online discounters too.  If Bill wants to post here and help folks out, that’s admirable but to sneak in a commercial ad when they aren’t allowed only damages his reputation IMHO.  Kind of like the Bill Clinton excuse.  As long as you are a good President it’s ok to break the law when it suits you. Well that’s why we have a free country.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  You don’t have to agree.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope.  He ran an ad.  It was spam. Incidentally a friend of mine bought one of Kiene’s discontinued "new" rods and it came with a scratched up blank and the wrong tube/sock. So be careful and ask for all the details before buying.  You get what you pay for and there isn’t always full disclosure.  Not just Bill’s shop but I’ve heard horror stories from some of the other online discounters too.  If Bill wants to post here and help folks out, that’s admirable but to sneak in a commercial ad when they aren’t allowed only damages his reputation IMHO.  Kind of like the Bill Clinton excuse.  As long as you are a good President it’s ok to break the law when it suits you. Well that’s why we have a free country.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  You don’t have to agree.

Well, my opinion is that your opinion sucks. — something bogus to avoid spam)

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Sorry, not only are you in the minority, you don’t seem to know the definition of spam: "There are two main types of spam, and they have different effects on Internet users. Cancellable Usenet spam is a single message sent to 20 or more Usenet newsgroups. (Through longexperience, Usenet users have found that any message posted to so many newsgroups is often not relevant to most or all of them.) Usenet spam is aimed at "lurkers", people who read newsgroups but rarely or never post and give their address away. Usenet spam robs users of the utility of the newsgroups by overwhelming them with a barrage of advertising or other irrelevant posts. Furthermore, Usenet spam subverts the ability of system administrators and owners to manage the topics they accept on their systems. Email spam targets individual users with direct mail messages. Email spam lists are often created by scanning Usenet postings, stealing Internet mailing lists, or searching the Web for addresses. Email spams typically cost users money out-of-pocket to receive. Many people – anyone with measured phone service – read or receive their mail while the meter is running, so to speak. Spam costs them additional money. On top of that, it costs money for ISPs and online services to transmit spam, and these costs are transmitted directly to subscribers. http://spam.abuse.net/whatisspam.html Nope.  He ran an ad.  It was spam. Incidentally a friend of mine bought one of Kiene’s discontinued "new" rods and it came with a scratched up blank and the wrong tube/sock.

Did you give the shop an opportunity to correct the problem? So be careful and ask for all the details before buying.  You get what you pay for and there isn’t always full disclosure.  Not just Bill’s shop but I’ve heard horror stories from some of the other online discounters

I don’t think you can call Kiene’s and ‘online discounter’ too.  If Bill wants to post here and help folks out, that’s admirable but to sneak in a commercial ad when they aren’t allowed only damages

Please quote the document which says that such posts are not allowed opinion.  You don’t have to agree.

You’re right.

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Question:

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4K Download

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This page works great on my UNIX based ASCII news reader, it’s beautiful…

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Question:

re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

No, but I hear smoking a rat works well. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Has anyone had any experience with a new product from SC Johnson that does not contain DEET — Skintastic.  Please let me know if effective. -Mark

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                     Colorado School of Mines             Rice University                     Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown           http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

  Morgan  Try eating lots of vitamin B-12 a week or so before you go. Deet products do work though.   Harry

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Try Avon’s Skin-so-soft.  It works great, smells okay, and doesn’t leave a residue on things because you don’t spray it–it’s a lotion. Rich Utah Fish Finder http://www.xmission.com/~rpprods/utah/fishing – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel! Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown          http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

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: Try Avon’s Skin-so-soft.  It works great, smells okay, and doesn’t leave a : residue on things because you don’t spray it–it’s a lotion. : : Rich : Utah Fish Finder : http://www.xmission.com/~rpprods/utah/fishing : Has anyone mentioned the smelly kind of Bounce pined to your collar or fishing hat? I use it to keep deer flies away. Cheers, Bob — lukn4fish Bob Madden San Jose, Ca

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re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

     (I missed part of this thread, so if I repeat things I apologise.)      Many years ago, I spent two summers working on an archeological project in the Malheur Refuge/Blitzen River region of southeastern Oregon.  This is SERIOUS mosquito country, and we tried everything under the sun (there was plenty of that, too.)  DEET worked best, but it is yucky, maybe dangerous,etc etc.  Here’s a quick summary of our experiments: SMOKE:  Cigar and pipe smoke definitely help.  I smoked a very cheap brand of pipe tobacco called Granger, but I haven’t seen this for years.  A really effective method, taught to us by a Basque geologist, was to make a sort of incense burner out of a large tin can and burn dried cow chips upwind of where we were excavating, though this wouldn’t work for fishing.  (This smoke does not stink.) OILS: The Organic/Vegetarians among us tried oils of pennyroyal, eucalyptus, citronella, camphor, and cedar.  These weren’t much help; they were most effective when mixed with mineral oil or vaseline to give a greasy coating to the skin.  FYI, pennyroyal smells like an angry skunk wearing patchouli. VITAMINS: Some folks tried taking massive doses of B vitamins.  I don’t know if this worked on the bugs, but the users smelled faintly of vitamins after a while. COVERAGE: One fellow was very sensitive to bug bites, and took to wearing a mesh mask and long sleeved shirts.  He cut a very mysterious figure out there in the High Desert, but this worked  well, especially when he sprayed the shirt and mask lightly with DEET-based repellent.  I have since heard of people installing a transparent plastic view port in a mesh mask to improve vision.      Hope this helps.  –Roger (formerly an archeologist) Wiggin, Portland

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try Avon’s Skin-so-soft.  It works great, smells okay, and doesn’t leave a residue on things because you don’t spray it–it’s a lotion. Rich Utah Fish Finder http://www.xmission.com/~rpprods/utah/fishing Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel! Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown          http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

Avon’s Skin-so-soft works for some folks but not for others (and won’t handle bad bugs). Perhaps it has something to do with body chemistry. All Terrain out of California make a bug repellent and bug repellent/sun screen combo that has no DEET or other nasty stuff. I have tested it and it works if your problem is not to bad, i.e. won’t handle northwoods blackflies. I find that it lasts for an hour to two hours. If the problem is severe, there is no substitute for DEET. When faced with a trip to a blackfly infested area I don’t use any soap or shampoo for several days before or during the duration of the trip, and then try and use as little of a very strong Deet solution as possible. Bug jackets are another solution but they can be a pain and, as a smoker, I can’t handle net over my face. I concur as well with the earlier advice about cigars, I like to have several packages of the stinkiest and longest lasting I can find. Paul Marriner

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Avon’s Skin-so-soft works for some folks but not for others (and won’t handle bad bugs)…I find that it lasts for an hour to two hours. …

This has been my experience also.  The active mosquito-repelling ingredient in Skin-So-Soft is good old citronella.  It works for mosquitoes for awhile, but after the citronella wears off in an hour or so, it’s time for more.  It does come in a sun screen variety, by the way. All in all, for long lasting mosquito protection, DEET is the only thing that really works.  Of course, it’s also a darn good solvent for plastic.

Response:

I had an opportunity to try Skintastic this summer in Fairbanks. It worked very well for up to four hours, although I wasn’t on the river during that time (we were hiking…). Otherwise, with just some old generic repellant, the ’skeetas’ chewed me and my family up "right well." Luckily, Fairbanks was the only place in late June where we ran into mosquitos in any significant number. Maybe they just don’t like West Texans…?

Maybe they were skeeters transplanted from Colorado. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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I make my own repellent. I call it "TBone’s Artificial Bug Repellent".  I still get the crap bit out of me by real bugs, but every time a try to to on an artificial, I drop it into the river never to be seen again, so I know that it works. TimW

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I suffer from the same problem. If I’m in a crowd one mosquito’ll find me. Try vitamin B-1. Load up for a week before you go out. Something about it turns ‘em off. Regards, — Phil Koenig Manhattan Custom Tackle Ltd. http://fishdoc.com./ "I’m the boss,so WHATEVER I say is OK"

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I suffer from the same problem. If I’m in a crowd one mosquito’ll find me. Try vitamin B-1. Load up for a week before you go out. Something about it turns ‘em off.

AHH GOOD NEWS, WERE IN LUCK !!!! Plenty of B Vites in the beer I’ll bring along…what time are we leaving ?!?!? TimW

Response:

Has anyone had any experience with a new product from SC Johnson that does not contain DEET — Skintastic.  Please let me know if effective. -Mark

I used Natrapel last week where there were swarms of mosquitos.   Worked very well!  Got about four bites after 2 nights of camping/fishing.

Response:

I have heard this from other sources but unfortunately it is not true the Skintastic is DEET-free. Skintastic contains N,N-diethyl-meta-toluamide which is DEET. The selling points for Skintastic are that it contains less DEET (6.65%), has aloe for the skin and is not supposed to feel greasy. DEET got a bad name when it was linked to Gulf War Syndrome where it is thought to have been a causative agent when administered in combination with an anti-nerve gas drug (a cholinesterase inhibitor, I believe). DEET has also been implicated in neurotoxic reactions in kids when applied frequently with preparations containing high amounts of DEET (50% or more). The only DEET missing from Skintastic is the word DEET on the label. The marketing people probably wanted to avoid pushing the DEET! hot buttons of consumers. Typical, just avoid the D-word and it will be all right. From what I have read, DEET repels bugs in a concentration dependent manner with 25% DEET being adequate for ticks and less needed for mosquitoes. Apparently, 56% of DEET applied to the skin is absorbed into your system where it is deposited in fat and takes several months to be mobilized and then metabolized in the liver for excretion. Thus, the more you apply the more you accumulate. The duration of effect is also concentration dependent since DEET evaporates and then requires reapplication. Higher concentrations give a longer lasting effect. The totality of the toxic effects of DEET remain unclear. However, young children seem to be the most affected either due to body size or inherent sensitivity. I suppose it will take a generation of adult guinea pigs to ascertain any long term effects of DEET use in adults. My wife and I generally try to apply DEET products to our clothes. We use a bandana with DEET on it that hangs over the forehead and over the back of the neck under a broadbrimmed hat for head protection. This seems to generate a DEET miasma in the air near the skin and works well on mosquitoes and blackflies. This leaves the hands as a target where we apply as little DEET as possible. For our daughter (22 mo.), we don’t use any DEET but dress her with turtle neck shirt and long pants and use citronella oil wipes on her exposed skin. This works OK but requires frequent reapplication. It would be interesting to hear some more nonDEET repellent strategies. Live long and bug-free. Jon

Response:

I had an opportunity to try Skintastic this summer in Fairbanks. It worked very well for up to four hours, although I wasn’t on the river during that time (we were hiking…). Otherwise, with just some old generic repellant, the ’skeetas’ chewed me and my family up "right well." Luckily, Fairbanks was the only place in late June where we ran into mosquitos in any significant number. Maybe they just don’t like West Texans…? Roger Saathoff Lubbock

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                     Colorado School of Mines             Rice University                     Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown           http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

   Note:   I have been using strips of Downy fabric softner tyed to my shirt or hat with some success in keeping bugs away.  Not 100% but it helps.   Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                     Colorado School of Mines           Rice University                     Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown            http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

This is a pretty common problem.  Someone taught me a trick recently.  When you apply DEET, put it on the BACK of one hand, and rub the backs of your hands together.  Try to avoid getting DEET on the front of your hands. Good Luck Scott

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel! Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown          http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

re: BUG REPELLANT. have you tried smoking cigars?? there are a couple of good cigars that my friends and i smoke and actually keep the bugs at bay..

Response:

Over the years, I’ve become convinced of the effectiveness of a good DEET-based insect repellent.  For some reason, those little blood-sucking bastards find ME particularly tasty.  Since I attend school in Houston and maintain a permanent address in New Orleans, I routinely douse my exposed extremities in repellent if I go fishing. However, the thin plastic coating on my steering wheel has been dissolved by residue from the repellant left on my hand, so every time I leave my truck in the sun, the top of the wheel gets a gummy, sticky consistency.  Also, since I started flyfishing recently, I’ve noticed that my fly line has shown the same signs of corrosion and deterioration as my poor steering wheel!   Oh, how I wish I was as hairy as my father!!! — MORGAN P. BROWN                 Colorado School of Mines                 Rice University                 Phone:   (303) 215-9190 URL:     http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown                http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro

Response:

Question:

i am still always amazed when i see farm raised goldens for consumption at safeway… TimW

Response:

(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra.

<SNIP Not necessarily so, last year caught a nice 14" golden at a lake whose elevation was at 8200 ft.  Tough to find goldens in the Sierra below 10,000 ft., but they are there.  Check out Ralph Cutter’s Sierra Trout Guide.  It has all the fishable waters in the Sierra listed by county and whether a lake or a stream.  The listing not only includes what type of trout are in evidence there, but also what elevation and which topographical map it it can be found on.                                  Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

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I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. No I won’t tell where.  It gets too much fishing preasure as it is. | |…… Seek harmony and balance in the mountains, find harmony and balance within…..

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: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare?

Those aren’t the same "goldens" that are often sought after here.  They’re farm grown fish with almost a solid gold color the bares no resemblance to the Volcano Creek or Little Kern Golden trout.  I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.  

That’s because they’ve grown to larger size.  I’ve caught small Goldens in Wyoming and Montana that fit your description.  The size of these smaller Wyoming trout matches the bigger California trout, and so does their coloration. Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger.

Not so.  California (e.g. Kern) goldens keep the par marks through life. Matt Carey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho. As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens.

Hi    Golden Trout were rainbow trout less than 50,000 years ago.  They evolved into goldens in the Kern River system as low as 7,000 ft. They are considered a high elevation fish largely because that was where we planted them in the mid 1800s and early 1900’s.  They have the ability to live in most waters that can support bows.    There are about a dozen roadside golden trout waters and many less than an hour from the car (don’t ask). You’ll need to do some sleuthing, but that’s half the fun!    Tight lines, Ralph —

Response:

Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

Response:

Matt      It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.      I think Convict lake’s resort used to have an internet site. Look for it at any web search engine (webcrawler, altavista, infoseek, etc.). This used to be one of my favorite fishing spots. Watch the weather reports for the storms come upon this area VERY quickly. HTH Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

Response:

In ‘89 I did a trip up to Lake Mildred (or Martha, not sure of the name)…it’s the first lake in the chain above Convict. That lake produced many fish, but no goldens…Convict Lake was terribly crowded and I’m sure it hasn’t gotten any better…. I’ll be fishing in the Lone Pine/Whiteny area the 4th of July weekend…hoping to get up to some of the higher lakes in that area…I’ll let you all know what happens.

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

Response:

There are a few places that do not require 8 hour hikes. More like 15 minutes or less. (These places should be held dear, but they do not hold large goldens-if there are such a thing). Some of these are roads approaching the Kern River drainage and some of the Sierra mountain pass roads. Mail me directly and I can give you a little more info. -Don M.

Response:

Matt     It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.

There are quite a few lakes in this area along the eastern slope of the Sierra that are about the same distance from a lake that you can drive to.  Go up over Piute pass (out of Rock Creek) and you’ll get into some good Golden Trout country as well.  In the June Lake area Gibbs and Kidney lake are about the same distance *up* as the lake above Convict lake.  There are some golden trout lakes in the Mammoth Lakes and 20 Lakes Basin (near Saddlebag Lake). I even know of a lake that you can drive to that is a bit further north that has Golden trout in it. I’m a bit reluctant to provide a lot of details about a lot of these places however.  I wouldn’t have hesitated about 3-4 years ago but with the commercialization of the net I’m afraid that I’d see a pay-per-view web site or a 1-900 number with all the Golden trout lakes for anyone (and everyone) to use to find these spots.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Stuff Deleted… As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Elevation isn’t the determining factor, as you have said. It’s the temp. and cleanness of the water. It’s just that you tend to find both at higher elevations. It also seems that you are fishing the same places I am. Please don’t post the locations. It took me years of hiking and searching to find these places. I would hate to see them become the next hot spot to go fly fishing. Darryl Hayashida

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AdFirmOne sandbags: : As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve : fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required : at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A : short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these : beautiful fish. Good luck tho. Nice try- Do you think the Kern is at 10.5K?  More like 6,000.  Basically, Goldens live in clean, cold water and are very sensitive to environmental impact.  There really is no altitude limit, as evidenced by their presence in many lakes and streams throughout the easter sierras.  Sure, you can hike to lakes at 9,000-10,000 ft. and catch goldens.  In fact, the DFG uses some remote lakes around cottonwood pass for hatcheries (*DO NOT* fish at these lakes- it’s illegal).  However, this does not mean that goldens aren’t found at lower elevations.  Many streams are within a few hours hike, and some lakes have parking lots a few miles from the shore- both contain goldens. Get a topo, and call some fly shops in the bishop area. Best regards, Hans — "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splitting textbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon."         -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom"          delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College. Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

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