Question:

B-run slow and far in-between but large when you hook up.  A few 30 + inchers have been caught and released.  Ron Fudge released a 33 inch Buck but had to work two/three days for it.  Very slow fishing.  Run up the Snake is in cloudy water and the fish just aren’t interested in doing anything in this dry weather.  We need some rain to scent the water.  The mud is from the clear cutting up river as it continues to do excessive erosion damage in the cliffs and mountains. Today I pulled the big jet boat out and took it to town for a set of all new brakes, two new matching tires so all four are alike, and for all new wheel bearings.  We spent an hour in the power wash cleaning and waxing "The Professional" Jet Guide Boat.  I was surprised how dirty the boat was just sitting in storage and out of the sun all summer.  Of course we’ve been away a lot for the last three months. We will be taking pictures to post on the web site as soon as we get her into the water.  Some boaters are picking up six to eight fish a day using shrimp bait but they aren’t fly fishermen either.  These individuals are fishing at night and it seems the new battery lighted lures are catching more fishermen then fish anyhow.  Maybe next year the new lures will be playing Mozart underwater? Mr.G.

  george.vcf

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        (blather snipped out of concern for the honor of the newsgroup)         it is perversely fascinating that anyone, even you, george, would think that any other human being on the planet could possibly give a damn about the matters proffered in the preceding post. wayno  (ok, so me and willi loehman read it)

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   (blather snipped out of concern for the honor of the newsgroup)    it is perversely fascinating that anyone, even you, george, would think that any other human being on the planet could possibly give a damn about the matters proffered in the preceding post. wayno  (ok, so me and willi loehman read it)

Heck, I read ‘em.  You never know what material might lurk.  Sorta like the kid and the barn full of horseshit, just certain there’s a pony under it all.  Actually, considering that Admiral Ginkstinks (hey, I think Gink Stinks – so sue me) is the source, a "full of horseshit" analogy is particularly apropos. For example, this one makes me wonder what kind of strange boat uses 4 matching (or even mis-matched) tires, new wheel bearings, or new (or old) brakes.  The only thing I can think of is that now that he’s without air support and de-Sabered – hmm, does that mean he’s "out of plane?" – he’s plotting to go capture a warm water port in Afghanistan to keep it out of the hands of them there godless commies….or them there ragheads….or somebody else that done him wrong….uh-oh…’tripper, better scratch parking your aircraft carrier in the Port of Kabul without battling a greasy little muppet and his lawyer, …and watch out for those flaming bamboo torpedoes….wait – damn the torpedoes, full stream ahead… TC, R

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Question:

Congratulations, Darin. You will have a lot of fun with your new fishing buddy! Tim Lysyk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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Congratulations Life as you knew is over. Fortunately the best is yet to come. BJ Conner

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Congratulations from the Left Coast! Merry Christmas and I know you’ll all have a Happy New Year! John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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A hearty Congrats to you and the Missus! — "Of what service would militia be to you, when most probably you will not have a single musket in the State; for as arms are to be provided by Congress, they may or may not furnish them?" -Patrick Henry,  5 June 1788

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Thank you all. May you all have a wonderfull Christmas. Mines already been perfect. Darin still the proud new father

And I must remind you to bring a big box of cigars to the next Clave.  :-) Joe F.

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Now, remember to be a nice Dad and make her birthdays special.  Two of my sons, and my wife have birthdays within 2 weeks of Christmas, and every year at least one of them reminds me that they feel like they are being overlooked because of the holidays. Congrats, and good health to you and your family, Darin! –Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s exactly what we were thinkin’. She was due Jan. 2, but due to a few circumstances she was induced 2 weeks early. Darin

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Congratulations, and best wishes to you all. Does he have a name yet?  ("Lefty" is nice <g) JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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Way to go Darin Dave

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Thank you all. May you all have a wonderfull Christmas. Mines already been perfect. Darin still the proud new father

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Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

Congrats Darin!  What a fine way to ring in the holiday season.  Best of luck and health to you and your family. Cheers. Natty

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Hey hey ! Congratulations, old man. And just in time for that nice tax deduction too. — Ken Fortenberry

That’s exactly what we were thinkin’. She was due Jan. 2, but due to a few circumstances she was induced 2 weeks early. Darin

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Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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Congratulations. I guess if you have to give up fishing for a few years the SJ clave was a good way to end. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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"Darin Minor" wrote Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son?

    Congratulations, and I hope mother and son are doing fine. Send "Uncle Charlie" your shipping address by e-mail, I think I may have what the boy needs.

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Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them.

Congratulations.   ‘Tis a fine thing. Joe F

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Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

Hey hey ! Congratulations, old man. And just in time for that nice tax deduction too. — Ken Fortenberry

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Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

Congratulations, and best to all. Happy Holidays, R

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Congratulations to you and your wife Darin, you’ll make an awesome dad. bruce h — bare your soul let your spirit burn out along the road to no return – r.e. keen

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Congrats!! I have a couple of fly rods that have been "accidentally modified" if you’d like a short rod! <g Congratulate the happy mother for us too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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Darin Minor writes: Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

Congrats, Darin.  My best to the mom.  Actually a 1 weight, 2 if he’s big, would be better. Dave LaCourse, ROFian Grandpa

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Congrats Darin!!! Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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Congratulations to you and your wife, Darin! –Walt Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

– Ezflyfish.com: http://www.ezflyfish.com Blue Ridge Book Gallery: http://users.boone.net/wgw/brbg.html

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Congratulations Darin. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

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Congratulations!  Outstanding. Bruce Thomsen

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Congratulations from all over the pond! Herman Those of you who met me at the Western Clave knew that my wife was pregnant, well that is no longer the case. My son was born at 8:12pm last night. Mother and child are doing great and I couldn’t be happier. I will try and post pics on the web when I can and post the address for those of you who would like to see them. Anybody know where to get a 4 or 5′ rod for my new son? Darin the proud new father

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

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Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

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I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

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You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

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Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

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I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

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I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

Response:

1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

Response:

Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Question:

I have read that it is a good idea to attach a short length of monofilament to the end of one’s line and finishing it with a perfection loop.  This would enable one to attach (and exchange) different leaders without having to tie a knot (loop to loop) and saves the end of the fly line from repeated clippings.   I would like to know two things: 1. Who uses this and do you like it? 2. What length and pound test of mono would you suggest for a 5wt fly line? Thanks in advance for your help. JB

Response:

JB, I used to use a perfection loop but changed last year when I realized that 98% of any windknots I got were wrapped around the loop connection.  I now tie on a  12"-18" section of heavy (20#) mono directly to the end of the fly line using a blood knot, then tie in a knotless leader one size under my desired tippet (again with a blood knot), then finally tie in a tippet of the desired length and weight using either a surgeons knot or another blood knot. When the tippet needs replaced I just snip off just behind the last knot and tie in another length.  The leader is handled the same way.  When the heavy mono gets below six inches I snip it off just behind the knot and tie in again. While this does cause some loss of the fly line it is very little, less than a inch last year.  I figure by the time I get to the point where it interferes with the geometry of the fly line it will be time to replace the line anyway. When I first started this I got a spool of 10# mono and practiced tying blood knots while watching TV or listening to the stereo.  I had always avoided tying the blood knot as it appeared difficult and clumsy but after a week of practicing during TV or stereo I was tying them without looking. Overall this system has been easy for me to use and its reduced my windknots by maybe 50%. Just my experience. Regards, Don – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have read that it is a good idea to attach a short length of monofilament to the end of one’s line and finishing it with a perfection loop.  This would enable one to attach (and exchange) different leaders without having to tie a knot (loop to loop) and saves the end of the fly line from repeated clippings.   I would like to know two things: 1. Who uses this and do you like it? 2. What length and pound test of mono would you suggest for a 5wt fly line? Thanks in advance for your help. JB

Response:

______  If you will TRASH that loop to loop connection because you’re so lazy to do it right, your delivery will be most assured and up town as a serious fly fisherman. Need I be more blunt?

No, but you might try saying it in English. — Levi Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.                                                         — Dave Barry

Response:

Don, Thanks for the advice, I appreciate you sharing your experience and I will give your method a try.   Kind of you to help, thanks again. EJB

Response:

EJB I agree with Don and do it exactly the same way he does.  I use the same poundage lines too.  If I were writing the first reply, it would have been the same as Don’s Good luck! Bob

Response:

I use a loop-to-loop connection between leader and tippet only if the tippet is 4lb test or higher.  A good knot will distribute the stress over several wraps of monofilament.  A loop to loop connection is just line against line. In most cases, I’ll tie on a tippet with a surgeon’s knot. Mu

Response:

I use a loop-to-loop connection between leader and tippet only if the tippet is 4lb test or higher.  A good knot will distribute the stress over several wraps of monofilament.  A loop to loop connection is just line against line. In most cases, I’ll tie on a tippet with a surgeon’s knot. Mu

______  If you will TRASH that loop to loop connection because you’re so lazy to do it right, your delivery will be most assured and up town as a serious fly fisherman. Need I be more blunt? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/  Updates http://www.gink.com/chat Flyfishing Conversations 6:00 PM PST till after midnight.

Response:

Question:

Need to provide a little more information… What does it say on the BUTT SECTION ? If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless…. Oh good start,  T-bone,  Canadian judge gives this egging troll an 8 on subtlety, Now the question is will the quarry be attracted?

_______  Heck Steve, I rose to that fly like a Trip to the Toilet bowl! LOL!!!! God!  I love this place. Mr. G.

Response:

Steve Cooper: (snipped good stuff) <<Stevo the Howard Cosell impersonator Hell, man, now I know why you want a hat!  To hide that terrible looking rug on your head!  <g Dave L.

Response:

Take it elsewhere pal. We’re all getting pretty tired of people spamming bamboo rods of unknown quality on this site.

Response:

With all that goes on in this group, I have trouble labelling a one time post about a rod for sale as Spam. It seems appropriate to me to make a ONE TIME post about a fly fishing item for sale in this newsegroup. Short fishing note.  Because of all the unseasonably warm weather lately, the farmers have been irrigating again.  The rivers are VERY low. Last night I was fishing to midging fish that were making wakes when they moved to take a bug. It looked more like spawning fish (it wasn’t) than feeding ones. They were very spooky in the slow current and low water and very acrobatic when hooked. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Take it elsewhere pal. We’re all getting pretty tired of people spamming bamboo rods of unknown quality on this site.

Response:

With all that goes on in this group, I have trouble labelling a one time post about a rod for sale as Spam. It seems appropriate to me to make a ONE TIME post about a fly fishing item for sale in this newsegroup.

Sorry Willi, you are right. I guess I’m just getting a little testy about all the bandwidth wasted on the subject of bamboo rods of questionable pedigree.

Response:

Black helicopters? Black helicopters? We don knee no stinkin Black helicopters Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Martina/Larry (gender challenged??) –  now this is a bona-fide cross-posting!!! A friend of mine has a bamboo fly fishing rod and wants to get rid of it,for money of course. How much is he offering? I’ll take it off his hands for $20, just send me the money at the same time as the rod, no problemo   It’s not just old, it’s also still catching fish. sounds like wayno… Not quite correct, if it was "not just old, its also still catching bait"it would be just like Wayno

        if there’s one thing worse than a damn yankee, it’s a misinformed canuck.  :) wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

FYI "Canuck"is the ethnic slur for French Canadians. The correct slur for generic Canadians is "Cheeser," or "Frostback." Dave

Response:

Heck Dave, I thought it was "Hoser". ) Frank ("Hoosier") Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI "Canuck"is the ethnic slur for French Canadians. The correct slur for generic Canadians is "Cheeser," or "Frostback." Dave

Response:

FYI "Canuck"is the ethnic slur for French Canadians. The correct slur for generic Canadians is "Cheeser," or "Frostback." Dave

_____  I’d prefer to say, "Great Neighbors". Mr. G.

Response:

A friend of mine has a bamboo fly fishing rod and wants to get rid of it, for money of course, and was wondering if there is a market for such a fine old piece of art.  It’s not just old, it’s also still catching fish. Not being a fisherman myself, I though I would bait you guys first, pardon the pun, and see what kind of response I will get. Thanks, Larry

Response:

Martina/Larry (gender challenged??) –  now this is a bona-fide cross-posting!!! A friend of mine has a bamboo fly fishing rod and wants to get rid of it,for money of course.

How much is he offering?   It’s not just old, it’s also still catching fish. sounds like wayno… Not being a fisherman myself, I though I would bait you guys first, pardon the pun, and see what kind of response I will get.

will this do? Thanks, Larry

yer welcome. jeff ps – you might want to provide a few more details about the rod if you want a serious reply…no guarantee you’ll get one, but it might help.

Response:

Need to provide a little more information… What does it say on the BUTT SECTION ? If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless…. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Not being a fisherman myself, I though I would bait you guys first, pardon the pun, and see what kind of response I will get.

Uh, this is a fly fishing newsgroup.  Bait is a four letter word. Keith

Response:

Martina/Larry (gender challenged??) –  now this is a bona-fide cross-posting!!! A friend of mine has a bamboo fly fishing rod and wants to get rid of it,for money of course. How much is he offering?

I’ll take it off his hands for $20, just send me the money at the same time as the rod, no problemo   It’s not just old, it’s also still catching fish. sounds like wayno…

Not quite correct, if it was "not just old, its also still catching bait"it would be just like Wayno

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Need to provide a little more information… What does it say on the BUTT SECTION ? If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless….

Nah, it’s that crazy UPS guy. — Charlie…

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Need to provide a little more information… What does it say on the BUTT SECTION ? If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless….

Oh good start,  T-bone,  Canadian judge gives this egging troll an 8 on subtlety, Now the question is will the quarry be attracted?

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Tim Walker: <<If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless…. Cheap shot, Tim.  Not like you.  Very cheap shot.

OOoh too bad!, a beautiful rise and take,  but the wrong species…… Will T-bone lay out another cast? or is he still confident in his original presentation? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave L.

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Tim Walker: <<If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless…. Cheap shot, Tim.  Not like you.  Very cheap shot. Dave L.

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If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip

Not fair you guys…you know that tip was straight when it left the factory…must have been that black helicopter that bent the tip. Big Dale

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Steve  Cooper: <<OOoh too bad!, a beautiful rise and take,  but the wrong species…… Will T-bone lay out another cast? or is he still confident in his original presentation? No rise and no take, Steve.  This is Timbo’s way of "egging" on Tripper.  I said he could *not* be egged on, and he can’t.  But I did not mean shit like this.  I meant "egged on" as George meant it — to get Tripper to do something that he knew was dishonorable. NO ONE can make Day Tripper (Dave Tatosian) do something like that. Egg him into a fight like this?  I think he will stay out of it just to fuck over Timbo. So, like I said, lad, "Cheap shot". Dave L.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve  Cooper: <<OOoh too bad!, a beautiful rise and take,  but the wrong species…… Will T-bone lay out another cast? or is he still confident in his original presentation? No rise and no take, Steve.  This is Timbo’s way of "egging" on Tripper.  I said he could *not* be egged on, and he can’t.  But I did not mean shit like this.  I meant "egged on" as George meant it — to get Tripper to do something that he knew was dishonorable. NO ONE can make Day Tripper (Dave Tatosian) do something like that. Egg him into a fight like this?  I think he will stay out of it just to fuck over Timbo. So, like I said, lad, "Cheap shot".

 I’m cool with that, Dave,  I know most of the story on this one, I’m just having a  little fun, Actually I think T-B is just trying to have a little fun too. I was pretty sure that DT wouldn’t be drawn in by T-B’s troll here but I just tried to make this thread a bit more interesting by adding the colour commentary. Stevo the Howard Cosell impersonator

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no — it was a blue UN helicopter, scouting out the US for conquest, scaring fish and bending tips. You don’t see them in the east — our tips are already bent .

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip Not fair you guys…you know that tip was straight when it left the factory…must have been that black helicopter that bent the tip. Big Dale

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Need to provide a little more information… What does it say on the BUTT SECTION ? If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless…. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

: )))))))))))))))))))) !  I can’t help it if you make me laugh, but that was kinda a low blow even for an unqualified Trippered judged rod T-bone.  You are soooooooooooo funny!   whew* Thanks, I needed that! Mr. G.

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Need to provide a little more information… What does it say on the BUTT SECTION ? If it’s got a defective ferrule OR a bent trip, the chances are good that it has been "Trippered" and is useless…. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

_______  Very insightful pal.  Keen of eye.  A ‘Trippered Conversation’ is more like it, to be perfectly frank.  "Of Course," that could cover also the tipper section but definitely the the Big Butt Section of a two act rod team?         You have to be one of the most honest posters in all of Roffdom. You are most appreciated pal. Mr. G.

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Question:

I was noticing that someone posted a question earlier in this newsgroup asking if there were any books illustrating the lifecycles of flies in certain parts of the US at various times of the year.  I am also looking for info on a good beginning FF setup.  Therefore, if anyone has some good book suggestions on how to choose the right fly depending on where you are and what you’re fishing for as well as any books/catalogs that describe FF equipment and techniques, please post them. Thanks in advance, The Iceburg

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FlyFishing for Dummies is pretty damn good and as simple as things get. Tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was noticing that someone posted a question earlier in this newsgroup asking if there were any books illustrating the lifecycles of flies in certain parts of the US at various times of the year.  I am also looking for info on a good beginning FF setup.  Therefore, if anyone has some good book suggestions on how to choose the right fly depending on where you are and what you’re fishing for as well as any books/catalogs that describe FF equipment and techniques, please post them. Thanks in advance, The Iceburg

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Question:

Those of you who have more mobility than mere wading but without a Mako, Whaler, or Hewes: what is your preferred way of getting away from shore and why? Darren Lew NYC

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If you don’t have a boat and fish during daylight hours, consider renting a skiff.  Long Island has a number of fishing stations that do so.  The shallow-draft boats they feature would be fine for fly casting–stable with shallow-water capability.

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<<Those of you who have more mobility than mere wading but without a Mako, Whaler, or Hewes: what is your preferred way of getting away from shore and why? I am currently strictly a wading FFer, but my next toy will be a kayak. There is a whole new breed of ocean-going kayaks, some which are sort of hybridized canoes with open cockpits, some with a bit more beam for stability. I’m told that a good sized striper can give the kayaker a "Nantucket Sleighride". If anyone wishes to advance me $700 – $1,000 I will be pleased to report in more detail on the effectiveness of the craft.

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Those of you who have more mobility than mere wading but without a Mako, Whaler, or Hewes: what is your preferred way of getting away from shore and why? Darren Lew NYC

Depends. If we’re talking back bay low light. Canoe. Almost anywhere else a small (Carolina skiff ?) GLASS boat (12-14 ft) with a Honda engine. I have never tried a kayak. Perhaps it would be great in the surf ? I prefer glass to tin for less noise, better long term durabilty and more inertia for waves to overcome. "The true angler is always content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo

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I get around Gardnier’s bay in a poke boat which is a cross ,between a Kayak and a canoe, but more to the kayak side of things. Its great becauuse its so portable, but very hard to fish from. You can’t even kneel in a  kayak and that makes it tough. If you’re using it to get from one flat to another then its good, but not too swift as a fishing platofrm itself. Ira Clair

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Question:

Just returned from the West Branch of the Ausable.  Your best bet is to stop in at Fran Better’s fly shop on Rt. 86 in Wilmington.  Last weekend he recommended a gray haystack dun and emerger as well as a Picket Finn.   Fishing was slow, but I managed to land a brookie and a few browns on those flies, which imitate the Isonychia.  Also saw lots of BWOs and both rusty and sulphur spinners in the evening.  Most of the action took place in the afternoon.

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I am looking for patterns to use on the Au sable river in NY state.   Any ideas, both dry and nymphs.  thanks. Luc Nocente — Luc Nocente

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Question:

: Heard this Napa valley winery is holding a fly fishing school each month : sponsored by some big name equipment manufactuere?  Anybody know anything : about this – good or bad or worthwhile for some from Seattle to fly down : and attend?  I know that they make good wine! — Glen Bolen Assistant Regional Planner The views expressed are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, METRO.

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Read a blurb in USAir Magazine (March ‘95) that Orvis was sponsoring those schools, which are held on the Russian River. Haven’t heard anything about them, but if you’ve got that kind of money to spend, and fly-fishing is your main objective, I think you could get more bang for your buck with private lessons. If you want to drink wine and schmooze with the well-funded dilettantes, the telephone number is 415-392-1600.

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Question:

The fish are way easy to catch, and there’s a helluva lot more in the game than in the river.  I delude myself into thinking I’m honing my skills for my next visit to the McCloud.

Ditto.  I had more hookups while playing the game for 3 minutes than I’ve had on my previous 3-4 days on the McCloud.  Well, for $50, you don’t want to be skunked! Frank Holminski’s (sp?) response was that this game reflects the seasonal hatches and conditions you’ll encounter on this great river.  So, the buy the game and you shouldn’t have any zero-fish days — although I heard nothing about a money-back guarantee! I must admit, at the San Mateo show last weekend, whenever someone got a hookup, and you’d hear the ol’ reel scream through the PC speakers, that attracted more bystanders, as well as getting your adrenaline going!   For us Mac users, Frank says a Mac version may be developed later if they can get funding…my God, is not even flyfishing exempt from "vaporware"? Bill Uyeki

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Yeah, got sucked into it myself.  In fact, my buddy bought me a copy.  I don’t find it a problem to run it outside of windows.  Alt+M to lose the music.  Can’t wait for new fishing holes, and maybe some different tunes. Chatted the whole thing up with Frank H. while I was there.  Cool game. The fish are way easy to catch, and there’s a helluva lot more in the game than in the river.  I delude myself into thinking I’m honing my skills for my next visit to the McCloud.

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Many people think the Fly Fishing the McCloud River Game is CD ROM when they see it demonstrated. It is not but to get the great scans and animation that truly give the feel for dead driting an Adams or nymphing with a PT,  the game’s program uses approx 550 K of conventional memory while running.  This requires a memory mgt solution such as memmaker. The program is only 2.7 meg.  The game was the show stopper at the San Mateo ISO this past week, just ask Lefty DH

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Does anyone have any experience or comments about  this product?

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p because you need a config.sys with virtually nothing else configured for the program to run.  Once going, is challenging and fun.  Without sound, is hard to judge when fish are running.  Good luck.

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