Question:

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-)

I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected.

I was hoping you’d pipe in here.  It was my confusion in a holding pattern up there with you that got me searching for some way to call time out–or the closest thing I can get to that.  That’s probably why you were able to address the question so poignantly despite me not knowing how to ask it. Anyway, thanks.  You da man. — Jim

Response:

7ECA…. Yours is cooler though (Champ, right?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.

Response:

Makes sense to me – but best laid plans are sometimes difficult to follow in the soup. Flying the missed assumes situational awareness.Yes, I could have done my best guess as per the DG – but that would have meant a lot more figuring things out. Seemed prudent to talk to ATC and get back on track. Having said that, the missed was close to coming into play, so your scenario would have been the next step.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful. — True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller.

I can attest to that.  When I had my DG failure in IMC, the first hint I had that anything was wrong was a "say heading?" query from NY Approach. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.

Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

Good point, and a good reminder. -Ryan Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

– Ryan Ferguson Pitts S-2C N312PS Twin Comanche 8259Y My flying pictures are at: http://www.fergworld.com

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia.  Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down.  Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you.

But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7.  :-) Matt

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner.

Given a choice between a possible CFIT and a possible mid-air, I’ll risk the mid-air any day.  Not only are the mountains bigger targets than the airliners, they also don’t have TCAS. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA

Response:

<snip of exactly the type of stuff I was looking for but wasn’t sure exactly how to ask–You, too, Ron Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you

take, you will die. Snicker.  Filed in mental "quotable quotes" folder. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

As the other posters have pointed out, the ‘where’, ‘when’, and ‘how’ of lost is a big factor.   Assuming you have at least a NAV/AID available this simply shouldn’t happen at least in the big picture.   If you don’t have it sorted out soon (especially if you are on ‘own nav’) you better ask on the radio! Here’s something I used to do to sharpen my ‘where the hell am I’ skills… I would call up a regional map on my IFR sim (IFT Pro was great for this). Close my eyes and click the mouse to position my A/C on some unforseen random location and then start up the sim, plane in the air, IMC.  Since I new generally where I was (within a 100 miles) I’d start dialing up the VOR’s trying to fix my position.  Of course this is child’s play with a VOR/DME but get’s more challenging if you resign yourself to just the ADF or just the DME.  One of my instructors was so good about teaching VOR/CDI tricks (will this heading intercept the 245 radial?  How close to the station are you?) that getting lost with a working NAV/AID just doesn’t seem likely to me anymore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Most of these issues rely on the principle that if you are headed accurately from a know position, then suddenly switching to a much less accurate form of navigation will result in a badly off position only given a lot of time. Ie., you know your heading, should have a good idea when your next fix eta is, you aren’t going to be far off even if murphy suddenly sticks you back into a dark cockpit with only a flashlight aimed at the compass and your watch. No matter what the situation, radio working or not, is to perform what you were cleared to do. Thats what you last knew, thats what they expect. Circling, doing something odd, whatever, its just going to make the situation worse, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Lost?  On instruments?  Never happened to me.  But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.  The needles are pretty hard to misinterpret.  If you lose electrical you get on your handheld and start talking to ATC. Ryan http://www.fergworld.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Whoops, should be you SHOW me 10 miles….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I would unsure I would just ask.  It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

ATC would probably not appreciate an unannounced circle and ascent. And, obviously, pulling over isn’t an option.  I’m guessing this is a troll question, but I’ll give it a serious answer anyway. I’ve never had this happen, but it if did, I’d immediately confess to ATC that I’d lost situational awareness and ask them where I was! Matt

Response:

What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?

You probably won’t need to ask.  If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller. Immediately circle and ascend?

I suppose it depends where you are.  If you’re in Alaska and in uncontrolled airspace climbing probably won’t make your situation any worse.  In controlled airspace over Iowa it’s a different story. Call "time out" and pull over?

Are you flying a helicopter?  Beware of the traffic behind you.

Response:

On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain.

The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner. Bottom line is life is not good if you loss situational awareness. The penalty for not paying attention while flying in IMC can be death.  Serious stuff.

Response:

Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.

– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.

Response:

Well, there are always those time/distance exercises you had to learn: go wandering off the airway while you’re lost so you can figure out how far it is to the next checkpoint. Personally, if I had a radio aid to use for that I would just fly to the radio aid and not give a dead rat how far away it is. Basically, lost in IMC is done the same way as lost in VMC: figure out your last know position, check your heading and time from there to approximate your current position, check it against radio aids. Maintain last assigned altitude and heading. Call for radar vectors. Climbing in circles is likely to induce vestibular problems, so don’t do that. If you’ve lost your electrics, backup radios and handheld GPS can be of some help. Again, check your last known position, use your heading and time to approximate where you are now. Check that against MEAs/MORAs. Climb in a straight line, if necessary, and follow IFR lost comm procedures. If you really haven’t got a clue and no help is available, consider other options. If you know you are near a coastline, for example, consider flying out over the ocean and gingerly descending until you can see the water, turn around and fly back to the coast. Use a deliberate offset so that you know you are coming in south, for example, of a known point on the coastline, then follow the coastline up to that point. If you are in a single engine plane in mountainous terrain, IMC at night, lost, and low on fuel, you have what is called a non-critical emergency. Critical emergency: An emergency such that if prompt action is not taken, you will die. Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you take, you will die.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up!

Consider two kinds of lost.  One is being unable to accurately locate your position due to complete electrical failure or some such.  For that kind of case, I carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag (with spare batteries), and I turn it on every week or so for 30 minutes or so to let it update its almanac.  The unit is always kept where I can reach it and retrieve it without looking.  I also carry a handheld radio.  With this, I can find my lat/long quickly and can then dead reckon toward a letdown point, using the GPS occasionally to refine my navigation.  I have practiced this. The other kind of lost is a temporary loss of positional awareness during a busy instrument approach or even a hold.  Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected. This can lead to panic.  In some terrain you just can’t keep flying while you try to figure it out or wait for ATC to call you and ask what the hell is going on, you need to do something fast.  I have been developing the habit of defining my "lost" procedure before entering an approach.  It consists of a heading and an altitude, and I jot it down on my kneeboard and draw a square around it.  The heading is the final aproach course and the altitude is the MSA.  If I get "lost", meaning I have lost positional awareness of exactly where I am relative to the procedure and am confused, my default procedure is to climb like hell and turn to the FAC.  Then I can call ATC and ask for vectors for the missed if I’m still lost.  Not a perfect solution nor a universal one, but it is something, and seems to me to be better than doing nothing and flying into a mountain. This kind of "lost" results from a breakdown or interruption of the mental processes required to execute a procedure while keeping the "picture" in your mind.  If you suddenly "lose the picture", especially while in a maneuver, the resulting disorientation and confusion negates recovery procedures based on application of logical thought processes.  If you can stabilize your situation, such as by just flying a heading, the ability to think logically can return quickly, and then you can puzzle out the problem, but you don’t always have time to do that.  I have heard that this mental lapse of "losing the picture" happens to controllers also. I got "lost" in a hold once in IMC.  I was flying a MAHP with GPS, there was a hefty wind, I got a little off track flying inbound to the holding fix, and somehow misjudged when to start my turn.  When I rolled out of the turn, I couldn’t immediately make any sense of the indications and got confused. I was "lost" in the sense of not knowing where I was relative to the fix. Not good.  In a hold, my default is to fly the outbound heading. I think Jim’s question, which is similar to one posted by Mike Horowitz a while back, is a good one.  Especially for inexperienced instrument pilots, or insufficiently proficient ones, there will be times, however infrequent, when confusion sets in, and it is worthwhile to think through these things and try to come up with no-brain default actions that, while not perfect, are likely to be better than doing nothing. I’m sure some people are so cool and competent that they never get lost or never get confused or panicked when something goes wrong, and I envy them. I have been lost in IMC, in the second sense and on an approach, and it is about the scariest thing I could imagine.  When that happened, I realized that I had to have some simple no-brain procedure to do something if I temporarily lost my thinking power due to confusion.  Otherwise, I would do nothing for a while, perhaps too long. Stan Prevost

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over?

I’ve never been lost in IMC, but if I were, it would depend where I was flying.  If I was over Iowa at 5,000 I would tell the controller I was lost and get some help.  On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller.  Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. BTW, how lost is "lost"?  A mile off course?  A hundred miles?  You’re never totally lost, I mean, you know what state your in, right?  :) So you’ll have some basic info about the terrain.   If you get lost while having a total electrical failure you’re on your own, so you better not be lost.  If you are, then use your head and think about the weather and terrain.  Where is the VMC?  Where is the low terrain?  Around here, the lowest terrain is over the ocean.  If I had to get down and had no nav or com capability and widespread low IMC that I couldn’t climb on top of, I’d fly out over the ocean and descend until I was below the clouds, then scud run my way back to the coast.   Of course, with a handheld nav/com, a handheld GPS, extra batteries, etc. I doubt it would ever come to that.  A lot of things would have to break at the same time that the weather was at its absolute worst and I’d have to get lost on top of it all. There are a lot of little failure modes that they don’t necessarily teach you about when you’re training for the instrument rating.  But you learn enough to be able to use your head and make educated decisions when fate (or your own idiocy) throws you a curveball. –Ron

Response:

Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So long as my  navigation equipment is working, I won’t get lost in IMC. I worry about aircraft control, getting into a steep bank or something, but getting lost is not something that has ever come close to happening. IT is not impossible, if I was out of radio comm and lost my navigation both GPS and VOR (or out of range of VOR). But it’s not likely. Lots of other more likely things to worry about. So long as I am in radar contact and have radio contact, and have Gyros I am OK. Most important navigation equipment is a radio, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC?  Do you simply ask for vectors?  Immediately circle and ascend?  Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate.  Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course.  But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Question:

Petah: and wait till you see my version of the GRW

Carrie Stevens beatcha to it.  She calls it the Green Ghost.  <g Dave

Response:

Petah: and wait till you see my version of the GRW Carrie Stevens beatcha to it.  She calls it the Green Ghost.  <g Dave

ya, OK, no problem being one-upped by Carrie – but that pirate guy – sheesh. and this time, don’t buy out Lakewood’s entire supply of GGs.  Leave some for the guy who knows how to use it  <BSEG Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Petah: and wait till you see my version of the GRW Carrie Stevens beatcha to it.  She calls it the Green Ghost.  <g ya, OK, no problem being one-upped by Carrie – but that pirate guy – sheesh. and this time, don’t buy out Lakewood’s entire supply of GGs.  Leave some for the guy who knows how to use it  <BSEG

Thanks for thinking of me, Peter, but I tie my own. /daytripper (And leave HWMNBN out of this!

Response:

That’s my home water you’re talking about, Dave. Great to hear you had some good fishing. The Middle Fork from Indian Creek was the pits three or four weeks ago (for the reasons you mentioned), but the tributary fishing was superb. We missed you at the Yellowstone Clave. Despite (or maybe because of) various intolerable provocations and slights, I can’t recall of week when I had more fun. (Or caught a bigger fish Next time. San Juan in January? Meet you at the Kiddie Hole? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

[good time snipped] Dave LaCourse

Sounds like a great time – see you in a few weeks.  BTW, the granddaughter will out fish you too.  :) and wait till you see my version of the GRW. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

<snipped awesome TR Next year Joanne and I will do Montana, perhaps with our 12 year old grand-daughter.  If we arrive on your doorstep with our 32 foot land yacht, Warren, I expect a cold beer, a big smile, and directions to the nearest trout waters.

I’ll leave a light on a cold one in the fridge for you.  I’ll make sure to leave a trout or two for you too.  I took lessons from Troutmaster Willi during the Clave so don’t expect many fish. . . . — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

I’ll leave a light on a cold one in the fridge for you.

                /                and still need more sleep. . . . . . — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

I’ll leave a light on a cold one in the fridge for you.                 /                and still need more sleep. . . . . .

Now, Warren, the biggest mistake people make when drinking premium beers (not Bud) is to drink them when they’re too cold. A light on a cold one might be just the thing. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Now, Warren, the biggest mistake people make when drinking premium beers (not Bud) is to drink them when they’re too cold. A light on a cold one might be just the thing.

Damn mother freakin’ confuser!  It’s out to get me, I swear! — Warren Findley Remove (nospamZZ) to respond via email http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/

Response:

rw writes: Next time. San Juan in January? Meet you at the Kiddie Hole?

I’m planning on the SJ.  Haven’t told the Chief of Naval Ops yet, but I’m going.  And, you can believe I will not even wade through the Kiddie Hole.  Why anyone would want to catch those pathetic fish is beyond me.  I had planned on the Jellystone Clave, but made the Idaho reservations early.  I would have been out a lot of money if I didn’t follow through. Dave

Response:

In the past I have taken a grandson to Labrador for big brookies and landlocked salmon.  This year we went to Idaho for cutthroats.  I made the reservations before the Western Clave’s dates were set, so I missed it – we were in Idaho the same week. We arrived late Sunday afternoon aboard the owner’s Cesna 206.  Six cylinders, turbo-charged, putting out 310 hp.  Quite the aircraft. Wapiti Meadows Ranch in on Johnson Creek, south of Yellow Pine.  I was surprised to see chinook salmon in the creek.  Lots of them, and  all had been tagged by biologists.  They traveled about 900 miles up-stream, a 3-4 month trip, from the ocean to spawn and then die.  I was told that their numbers have increased over the past few years, so there is hope for the Chinook (King) salmon in this watershed. We fished Johnson Creek (skinny water this time of the year), the East Fork of the South Fork above Johnson Creek, and the East of the South below the confluence of Johnson.  Even though the water was skinny compared to what we are accustomed to, we caught many cutts on dries and nymphs.  When we first fished the East of the South, Brian was into his fifth rainbow or cutt before I had the water figured out.  He was up-stream of me fishing with the guide.  I was amazed to see him using an enormous Royal Wulff – must have been at least a size 10.   Small nymphs worked, but it seemed that the bigger ones worked better.  I caught most of my fish on a large yellow stone fly, but the dreaded Green Rock Worm also took a few, including the biggest of the trip – a cutt about 17 inches.   We were scheduled to fly into the Middle Branch of the Salmon at Indian Creek on Wednesday.  However, a very bad storm hit the area Monday night, dumping several inches of rain on the area. Four miles above Indian Creek is Pistol Creek.  There has been a fire on Pistol Creek for several weeks, so when the rains came they washed the ash into the creek and it was then dumped into the Middle Fork.  The water on Tuesday and Wednesday was a dirty gray.  We flew into the Middle Fork on Thursday after hearing that it was fishable. We walked up-stream about 2 miles to a large pool only to find it un-fishable.  The water was so cloudy that visibility was about two feet.  Downstream of Indian Creek the water was much better and we immediately go into some nice cutts.  My first cutt on this water had such vivid red colors that I thought it was a Rainbow. It was about 14 inches and absolutely beautiful.  The cutts on the other waters we fished had a green back and not much red (except for the "cut throat"), but this fish was brilliant.   After many fish caught and released, we settled into camp and made a "whiteman’s" campfire.  Our guide Andy grilled some steaks and baked some potatoes while I got into the white wine.  I took several pictures of my 16 year old grandson holding a beer can.  His mother has yet to see the pictures! <g.    We stayed up until about 11 p.m. watching the fire and observing the stars.  Life is good

Question:

Absolutely Abe!!!!!!! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RodMaker wrote!! AJH, Nothing wrong with fiberglass rods. Used in the correct applications. I agree with you RodMaker!! I use my fiberglass rods to fish my crankbaits with and a few other lures too!!

Response:

For cranks, go to a 7 ft. or 7 1/2 ft. stick not only will you gain some in casting distance; but you will like the "feel" more .A med/heavy is more that adequate for this purpose. — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rodmaker;I just bought a nice 6 1/2 ft  fiberglass rod made by Abu Garcia, I thought I needed it for crankbaits but after using it a few times I set it aside with the other "had to have" stuff. I read too much about fishing.. Fiberglass has it’s place and had it’s time. It rests next to a Fenwick HMG 6 1/2 ft spinning rod that I "had to have"

Response:

Oh-oh! a whole new can of worms! — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing wrong with a Shakespeare Wonder reel and a Mitchell 300 either. Lets hear it from the "I still use a Mitchell 300" guys.

Response:

Huh The description of the repair is detailed with pictures. I have all the confidence that the repair would be adequate. I think the man is trying to repair a fibre glass rod of sentimental value. I f he repairs it himself and does an adequate job it will add to it’s sentimental value. It would for me. Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Al, stick to things that you are learned about! C. Boyd Phiffer’s advice is antiquated at best. If you have a real question, ask — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe! There is a book entitled Tackle Care and Repair Handbook (Field & Stream) by C. Boyd Pfeiffer. It is a paperback book. Chapter 6 is on rod repair and there are a few pages about re installing (taping then wrapping) your missing guide. You may be able to get the book at the library. For others the book covers repair and maintenance of rod,reel,lures and accessories. Al

Response:

The Epoxymoron somehow seems to fit, Mike!But what is a "respectable" Rodmaker? Anyone care to know my take? — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Respectable rodmaker"…..? There’s two words you don’t see next to each other too often. Hmmm, alliteration and an oxymoron rolled into one…or would that be an epoxymoron.  LOL  Just kidding RodMaker. — "Mad-Mikey"  At first, fishing and hunting were just hobbies,              then they became addictions taking all my time              and money. If they ever find a cure for these              sicknesses—   I’m refusing treatment. Before you buy.

Response:

HMG 6 1/2 ft spinning rod that I "had to have" And what would you want for that HMG?

– "Mad-Mikey"  At first, fishing and hunting were just hobbies,              then they became addictions taking all my time              and money. If they ever find a cure for these              sicknesses—   I’m refusing treatment. Before you buy.

Response:

Al, stick to things that you are learned about! C. Boyd Phiffer’s advice is antiquated at best. If you have a real question, ask — ~~~~ The RodMaker (a.k.a) The Shadow……hehehe!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a book entitled Tackle Care and Repair Handbook (Field & Stream) by C. Boyd Pfeiffer. It is a paperback book. Chapter 6 is on rod repair and there are a few pages about re installing (taping then wrapping) your missing guide. You may be able to get the book at the library. For others the book covers repair and maintenance of rod,reel,lures and accessories. Al

Response:

There is a book entitled Tackle Care and Repair Handbook (Field & Stream) by C. Boyd Pfeiffer. It is a paperback book. Chapter 6 is on rod repair and there are a few pages about re installing (taping then wrapping) your missing guide. You may be able to get the book at the library. For others the book covers repair and maintenance of rod,reel,lures and accessories. Al

Response:

RodMaker wrote!! AJH, Nothing wrong with fiberglass rods. Used in the correct applications. I agree with you RodMaker!! I use my fiberglass rods to fish my crankbaits with and a few other lures too!!

Response:

Rodmaker;I just bought a nice 6 1/2 ft  fiberglass rod made by Abu Garcia, I thought I needed it for crankbaits but after using it a few times I set it aside with the other "had to have" stuff. I read too much about fishing.. Fiberglass has it’s place and had it’s time. It rests next to a Fenwick HMG 6 1/2 ft spinning rod that I "had to have"

Response:

Nothing wrong with a Shakespeare Wonder reel and a Mitchell 300 either. Lets hear it from the "I still use a Mitchell 300" guys.

Response:

My dad had a ‘51 Kaiser. Was a nice car back then.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing wrong with a Shakespeare Wonder reel and a Mitchell 300 either. Lets hear it from the "I still use a Mitchell 300" guys.

Response:

My dad had a ‘51 Kaiser. Was a nice car back then.

That’s a very questionable position, Bob.  I know, I inherited one from my father-in-law. 3" diameter round push buttons in middle of door panels to open the doors. Doesn’t matter if the lock button is pushed or not. Door pops open when you push the big button. Talk about convenience! Great way to get rid of unwanted relatives. Since the windows were always open anyway (the side windows had a habit of shattering when you hit a decent bump), you just ask ol’ Uncle Dan (who is riding shotgun)to hit the button and roll the window up as you’re taking a hard left. RichZ

Question:

I ran across some sinking tips which you attach to the end of your fly line with a loop connection.  They had 3 different sink rates (3"/second, 6"/second, 9"/second) in 12 foot lengths.  I purchased the slower two sink rates.  When I got home and unpacked these sink tips I was surprised to find that they are not tapered.  With the addition of a hinge in the line and the fact that they are not tapered, won’t this make casting them difficult.  I am going to try them tomorrow but would like to hear if anyone has some advice on how to properly use these add on sink tips.  After a day of messing with them I would like to read some advice from someone who has used these things. Thanks in advance David

Response:

I make them myself by chopping up a fast sinking flyline and threading the sinking line into a short piece of braided mono line.  I use them for salmon fishing with a 9wt rod.  You need a rod with a bit of punch and cast with a more open loop than you would normally.  I put a coat of flexament on my braids and that stiffens the hinge somewhat.  I do use a WF line with my setup and the rod will load up with alot less line out.  Just make a couple of practise casts and you will find the sweet spot.  I mark my floating line with a sharpie pen.  Check the loop connections regularly, I did have one fail on me while fighting a big fish.  Sounded like a firecracker.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran across some sinking tips which you attach to the end of your fly line with a loop connection.  They had 3 different sink rates (3"/second, 6"/second, 9"/second) in 12 foot lengths.  I purchased the slower two sink rates. When I got home and unpacked these sink tips I was surprised to find that they are not tapered.  With the addition of a hinge in the line and the fact that they are not tapered, won’t this make casting them difficult.  I am going to try them tomorrow but would like to hear if anyone has some advice on how to properly use these add on sink tips.  After a day of messing with them I would like to read some advice from someone who has used these things. Thanks in advance David

Response:

You can get tapered sink tips (not exactly tips per se) from Airflo.  They are called Polyleaders and come in 5′ and 10′ length in all sink rates from floating to type 4(?) sinking and in two weight ranges ("trout" for line weights up to 5 and "salmon/bass" for 6-9 weights). In spite of some other people’s complaints about Airflo products I have found these to be very good (as well as a 4 wt Hi Sense long belly fly line I use).  I made some level sink tips from a discarded full sinking line and defineitely found the Polyleaders to be superior. You can get these from ezflyfish.com.  I haven’t found another place that sells these (except Feathercraft in St. Louis, but they don’t have as broad a selection as Mr. Winter does). Mu

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ran across some sinking tips which you attach to the end of your fly line with a loop connection.  They had 3 different sink rates (3"/second, 6"/second, 9"/second) in 12 foot lengths.  I purchased the slower two sink rates.  When I got home and unpacked these sink tips I was surprised to find that they are not tapered.  With the addition of a hinge in the line and the fact that they are not tapered, won’t this make casting them difficult.  I am going to try them tomorrow but would like to hear if anyone has some advice on how to properly use these add on sink tips.  After a day of messing with them I would like to read some advice from someone who has used these things. Thanks in advance David

I fished the Orvis Sink Tips with my WF line yesterday and they worked quite well. They DO load the rod MUCH more rapidly at shorter distances though! Forget about using these things with light patters though. I fought more tailing loops and windknots with an 18 BeadHead than I did fishing it! If found that heavier patterns work well. — Michael Era

Question:

I called Scott at 7:15 yesterday morning and got his answering machine. The

cut out the other stuff so it wouldn’t piss me off any more The sun was a fiery ball touching the mountains as I was driving home. As often as I fish, today was so incredibly perfect that will remain with me for the rest of my life. bruce

As Dr. Hook once said "Beautiful". Wish I was there big Al

Response:

I called Scott at 7:15 yesterday morning and got his answering machine. The weather forcast said 47 degrees and partly cloudy. Damn, I wanted to go fishing! I Gave Scott twenty minutes and called again. This time he picked up on the second ring. "I knew it was you, he said". " I was just watching the weather channel so I knew you’d be calling."  We agreed to meet at his place in an hour. Rushing around the house, I threw a quick lunch together, grabbed my gear,and kissed my wife as I headed out the door. I noticed that the trees were starting to bud out along the river, hinting of spring just a week away as I zoomed down the interstate to meet Scott at our appointed time. We decided to float from Holter dam to Craig, hoping that the trout would be rising to midges in some of our favorite spots. If not we would fish streamers until we found rising fish. After running our shuttle we were finally on the water! Since we took Scott’s boat, I offered to row first, which he readily accepted. Floating quietly down the river I was intoxicated by the fresh smell of the Missouri as the geese honked indignantly at our passing. Everywhere were signs of spring. The greening of the willows, The myriads of ducks and geese already pairing up for nesting and the eagles screaming from the cliffs overhead. We found a pod of nice trout rising to midge emergers on a seam next to a gravel bar behind an island. Scott was using a Griffiths gnat with a wd40 emerger as a dropper. I elected to start off with a size twenty sparkle midge pattern without a dropper. Scott was fast into a 15 inch rainbow. After his third fish, I dropped my purist ways and tied on a red brassie as a dropper and in three casts was onto a fish of my own. We were able to coax a couple more fish to the fly before deciding to move on. Things slowed down for a while so we switched to streamers.  we caught a couple more  fish on brown woolybuggers but the dry fly action had stopped for the time being. The day slipped by all to quickly as we drifted down this magnificent river. We reflected on fishing trips in the past and planned trips for the future. I reminded Scott of the Skwala hatch on the Dearborn next month and the Salmon fly hatch on a small stream we keep quiet about.  All to soon we were within sight of Craig and the end of our day. " Let’s go check out that back channel above the rocks." I suggested.  Scott manuvered the boat quietly into the backwater. Two really nice fish were sipping midges just at the limits of my casting ability. The water was perfectly calm reflecting the sky and mountains in a tapestry of springtime colors. On my fifth cast the fly landed perfectly. Without hesitation,the trout poked his head out of the water and delicately plucked my "gnat" from the surface. "That’s enough for me" I told Scott as I released the chrome colored beauty. "You fish the rest of the way out." As we floated the last half mile Scott hooked and released seven trout including a beautiful nineteen inch brown. All on a woolybugger that had a blown hackle trailing behind it. "Hey if it works why change!" He laughed. The sun was a fiery ball touching the mountains as I was driving home. As often as I fish, today was so incredibly perfect that will remain with me for the rest of my life. bruce

Response:

Question:

So, if I declare war on Mr. G before I were to shoot him, this would be justifiable homicide and not REDRUM! Opie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it becomes a murderer.  Like it or not.

Response:

What does any of this have to do with fly fishing? Is there fly fishing to be done in the persian gulf? Should we hire a guide? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, if I declare war on Mr. G before I were to shoot him, this would be justifiable homicide and not REDRUM! Opie it becomes a murderer.  Like it or not.

Response:

What does any of this have to do with fly fishing? Is there fly fishing to be done in the persian gulf? Should we hire a guide?

        Aww, don’t be such a Jesuit. To paraphrase someone, an overly fanatic attention to neatness is a sign of an unhealthy mind. A little variation on a theme

Question:

Now, what did you expect making a comment like that n a jeep ng…. What a weenie…

Response:

 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".

You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. — Its a Jeep thing..You would’t understand. URL: http://the-threshold.org/gallery/jeep                   OR Its an Anoraks thing.. You don’t want to understand URL: http://the-threshold.org/Anorak-Offroad

Response:

 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting… " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

  that was funny. Sorry guys and gals. I have to be a traitor on this one. I live in a college town. And here the average Jeep driver’s values and experiences have very little in line with me. Unless it’s clearly built or restored, it’s just another car. -ejs

Response:

 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing.

Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

Response:

Wow! If it isn’t Muskie the Wonder Troll returning to haunt our newsgroups!   Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

You still can’t get it right:  "It’s a Jeep thing… you wouldn’t understand" is the phrase. Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

Those that I have seen who have actually bestowed the phrase on their vehicle are generally those who actually take the vehicles off-road, go camping, lead an active life style, toss on a trailer of jet-ski’s or dirt bikes and actually have a life.  These people go to the Jeep Jamboree’s, the Trail Runs, etc.  They are far from ’sheep’ though a few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

Response:

How much would an Old Man Emu lift cost on an 86 cherokee?  I am looking for ball park estimates on the ~3" lift reviewed on off-road.com (i think). Also, are there web sources for Old Man Emu ordering? Thanks, jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

Response:

Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

If your idiotic flame bait bothered me at all, you might be right… Motorcycles have the same cadre relationship.  When you’re on a bike or a harley, almost *everybody* waves.  It is no different, and I think anybody who buys a jeep or a bike only for the waves is going to be sorely disappointed. Besides, it IS a JEEP thing, and you CLEARLY DO NOT understand.  at all… jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

Response:

few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer.

I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great. jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

Response:

few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

hehe, I must admit I never thought of it that way.. but I have thought of it as a way to keep the vehicles in production and to keep the prices somewhat down.. on the other hand the high demand has surged what should be an $18-22k vehicle up to nearly $40k.. almost a full half of which is profit for Chrysler. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

Response:

HUH?! Where the hell is your point? Meanwhile, if you don’t understand – don’t bother trying.  Obviously, you don’t own a Jeep, so there’s your first obstacle.  The next is being a brand-loyal four-wheeler, where everybody who doesn’t drive you’re particular make of vehicle is pond-scum.  And finally, you’re a little dissatisfied with whatever make of vehicle you’re driving (and a little envious of a Jeep) to take issue with something you don’t or want to understand.  Get a life. I do think that we, as four-wheelers, need to recognize all makes and models as brethren and form an even larger following with a much more accurate motto:  "It’s a 4×4 thing…you asphalt-bound grocery-getters certainly wouldn’t understand."  Anybody with a purpose-built, fill-tilt-boogie off road rig (no matter what it is) gets a wave and nod-of-approval from me. Until then, it’s just us Jeepers… Eric ‘80 CJ-7 – 4" Pro Comp, 33×15.50 Swampers, and way too many other things to mention, ‘85 Nissan King Cab 4×4 – 31×10.50 AT’s, no lift, gets me to work and pulls the boat. — Opinions, everybody’s got one of those, too. You know how to Reply…

Response:

Muskie,        Just when we thought Mr. Troll himself had finally gone away it slithers back in… I have a jeep because I always wanted one and I could care less who else has one. The jeep wave is a tradition, not really a club thing.  I know, you don’t get it. What does "It’s a jeep thing" mean?  It’s a diverse cultural association.  I think you exemplify a jeep cultural disassociation when you wrote "it’s just a d*** car."  That’s the difference.  I doubt you’re bright enough to figure it out though. Don To avoid a flame war I must add.  I am biased to jeeps but there are other manufacturers that build excellent vehicles.  This retort is aimed specifically at Muskie and not other vehicle afficianados. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. <really long boring story snipped   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

Well, when I see somebody in a 90-96 300ZX I certainly wave… Alex

[big snip]

Response:

No that would be a RAV4, CRV, etc… No one knows what the hell it is and what purpose it serves!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

Response:

 The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!" Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep, and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back. Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.  " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!" Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together. "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".  Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds. " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.  " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

Wow, I guess you don’t understand.  I for one have always loved the Wrangler, and I just bought my 98 TJ in June(having no knowledge of the "Jeep Thing" or the waves I would get from fellow Jeepers)  I actually had to ask a friend who owns a YJ about the wave….he told me H wasn’t sure about it either.  As soon as I hit 1500 miles, I was off the pavement, with the top and the door removed.  I have no problem with any brand of 4X4, although I like some less than others  But honestly, I have never seen another group of drivers as friendly with those they don’t know or as willing to help out when someone needs it.  I’ve taken my stock(so far) jeep a few places a little above the level I should, and the one time I got stuck, I was still amazed how well it did. Ok, no more rambling…..I’m sure you’re sick of me by now

Response:

I had a jeep and I loved it thy are good for mud raceing and for what ever ** HAVE A NICE DAY LARRY & KAREN **

Response:

The jeeps I drove for many years were OD, that’s a different thing. The only thing now is Jeeps have become another temporary fad for the brtaibnless yuppies. This too soon will pass and jeeps will go back to being driven by real people who like them for what they are instead of a phoney status symbol. I can wait. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

Response:

few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

I agree with this.  The only problem is that it seems a number of the new Jeeps are automatics.  Frankly, that’s sacrilege! — Cheers…Craig — Good manners and bad breath get you nowhere – Elvis Costello — It’s no use to blame the looking glass if your face is awry – S.J. Perelman — People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don’t realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world – Calvin (& Hobbes)

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The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!!

I often get asked if my Miata is a rental since I usually leave the top down unless it is absolutely pouring or I’m in stop/go traffic. Others don’t understand that Jeeps are waterproofed from the get-go, right down to a pair of drain holes in the floorboards! Ever wonder why most CJ and Wrangler variants didn’t even come with carpetting on the floors? Too bad it’s a hassle to take the doors off and front window down now.. (sigh) Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now……

Thank you for stating so eloquently what a lot of us are all about! Btw, I’m lucky enough to be a member of two very distinct ‘families’, the Jeep Family (by way of a lightly modded ‘93 ZJ V8 which has nearly 1/3rd of it’s 62,000 miles off road!) and the Miata club which, at least in off-road deprived Florida, is the more active and certainly more friendly of the two.  I also fall under the helping hand column. Heck, it was only Friday afternoon that I helped a poor lady push her out of gas car half a mile down the road to get it off of the worst part of the freeway.  :) You’re right.. some people just don’t get it. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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damn muskie that was good. i haven`t had such a good laugh in a long time . the thoughts of you playing on the floor with your barbie & ken dolls in jeeps cracked me up. could you entertain us with something about " its a 4×4 thing "  or  " its a harley thing "  or maybe a tough one like " its a man thing " ?  but please dont use your ken & barbie dolls again, i couldn`t stand the laughter. Jim

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<excellent commentary snipped Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing.

Here’s one hint: Why does everyone in a CRV, Rav-4, Tracker, Sidekick, Samurai, etc. always say "We’ll take my Jeep" but no one in a Jeep would ever say "We’ll take my CRV, etc."? There is only one Jeep. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

No, it’s true that you don’t understand but that’s okay. The sheep that you’re referring to might be the demographic majority of Jeep drivers, but those are not the people who wave at each other and say "It’s a Jeep thing."  The "Jeep thing" element, you might find, has more disdain for "sorority Jeeps," "college Jeeps," "soccer mom Jeeps," "street jeeps" and "yuppie Jeeps" than anybody. Some people like F-14s and others would rather ride a P-38 or a P-51. Some people don’t know what a P-38 is, but they’ve seen Top Gun so they think they’re aviation enthusiasts. There are those that want to belong to a group of rugged individualists, and there are those that just do.  (I’ll be modest here as I can, but as a pilot, rock singer, writer, computer geek, civil war reenactor and active environmentalist, I might not be rugged but I’m individualist…) Jeep was the first word I learned to spell, and I promised by grandfather when I was three that I would buy him a Jeep.  Image had nothing to do with it.  My oldest toy, a 1960s Tonka Jeep CJ3B, sits on my desk at work. Raise your hand if you had an infatuation with Nissan when you were three. The thing is, if you go over to the Jeep newsgroup, you’ll see that I’m not an exception…I’m average.  Probably less that average if you pay attention to the complexity of knowledge of their vehicle that some people there have.  You’ll also notice their head spin to look when they see a Willys other other vintage Jeep.  It has nothing to do with the driver. Don’t think about the guy behind the wheel…think of the Jeep. Regardless of the year, a Jeep stripped of its hard top and doors is a classic.  If you’ve ever driven through the country, tackled an ominous "intermediate" 4×4 trail with a stock Jeep or even just cruised the highway with the top off on a sunny day, you understand.  If you’ve ever pulled off the side of the road on an August evening and looked straight up at a meteor shower, you’re getting there.   If you’ve ever yanked a built-up vehicle out of a mudhole or driven your stock Jeep around a 4×4 bogged down on a snow-covered hill, you’re there. Not to trash other 4×4s…I’ve seen old Landcruisers and a heavily-modified Samurai command respect where lesser drivers in Jeeps failed…but why drive a flimsy, overpriced derivative when you can drive the real thing?   There’s just nothing like climbing up into an old CJ and staring down the short nose.  It has the feel of an old warbird…the sound of the engine, the smell of the Jeep, the feeling that you’ve strapped on wheels. It’s not the fault of Jeep drivers that these sturdy classics appear to have gone soft, but while middle America drives around the suburb in the Jeep equivalent of a sports car, those of us die-hard Jeep fans who have driven the new TJs have come to appreciate that under the cloth and plastic interior there is still a bad-ass trail truck that isn’t laden down with mystery parts and strange devices that prevent us from getting under them and making our own modifications. Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing. Chris Gattman              |  "..And the sky is humming,

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I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now…… –jason

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.     " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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Question:

DEAR JIM: There is a remarkable difference in staying power between soft and weak southern strains of bass compared to damned yankee bass found in Lake Erie or let us say in Wisconsin, etc.  A lot of it has to do with oxygen content but overall, southern bass on the average are soft and mushy fleshed.  Many other fishermen have noticed this also.  So if you’re going to make a choice, go north where the real fighting bass hang out. — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Asotin, WA 99402 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

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…..and while this is probably just my imagination George, it has always seemed to me that bass that hang out in rivers are stronger fighters than those that fin lazily in lakes…..for pure excitement, a river smallie that slams your topwater bug would be hard to top!   Regards, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DEAR JIM: There is a remarkable difference in staying power between soft and weak southern strains of bass compared to damned yankee bass found in Lake Erie or let us say in Wisconsin, etc.  A lot of it has to do with oxygen content but overall, southern bass on the average are soft and mushy fleshed.  Many other fishermen have noticed this also.  So if you’re going to make a choice, go north where the real fighting bass hang out. — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Asotin, WA 99402 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

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overall, southern bass on the average are soft and mushy fleshed.  Many other fishermen have noticed this also.  So if you’re going to make a choice, go north where the real fighting bass hang out.

Ahhhh, but George, everyone wants that ten pound HAWG!  And to get a HAWG you have to go south.  No one really seems to care that it will wallow in the mud and then show its belly like its namesake!  Can’t tell how hard a fish fought by looking at a picture! Hell, here in California we can’t even say HAWG, properly… Not even in southern California!

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overall, southern bass on the average are soft and mushy fleshed.  Many other fishermen have noticed this also.  So if you’re going to make a choice, go north where the real fighting bass hang out. Ahhhh, but George, everyone wants that ten pound HAWG!  And to get a HAWG you have to go south.  No one really seems to care that it will wallow in the mud and then show its belly like its namesake!  Can’t tell how hard a fish fought by looking at a picture! Hell, here in California we can’t even say HAWG, properly… Not even in southern California!

____YOU make me smile! Thanks Mr. G. — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Snake River – Hell’s Canyon Asotin, WA 99402 / 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

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In California we can say"hawg" in Lake Co.The state record largemouth is over 18 lbs. caught in Hidden Valley reservoir. The reservoir is planted with pure strain Fla. largemouth and may only be fished with permission of a landowner from the surrounding gated community.

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So you say you want bass, eh? Want some really fiesty bass? Not huge hawgs like you get in the southern US, but the smallmout bass here in Ontario are awesome. Get yourself up around Georgian Bay and bring some smallish poppers, nymphs, wooley buggers, crayfish imitations, etc. and hang on. I use a 6 wt 9 foot rod and I am in heaven. but just tell me when to show up! — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Snake River – Hell’s Canyon Asotin, WA 99402 / 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

Hi George I agree, the smallmouth is one of the hardest fighting fish pound for pound I’ve ever caught. Also there are a few in the Snake river near someone I know but shhh! I’ll never say where. Good tying &… — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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So you say you want bass, eh? Want some really fiesty bass? Not huge hawgs like you get in the southern US, but the smallmout bass here in Ontario are awesome. Get yourself up around Georgian Bay and bring some smallish poppers, nymphs, wooley buggers, crayfish imitations, etc. and hang on. I use a 6 wt 9 foot rod and I am in heaven.

but just tell me when to show up! — George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s World’s Best Fly Fishing Products Snake River – Hell’s Canyon Asotin, WA 99402 / 509-243-4100  FAX 4644

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overall, southern bass on the average are soft and mushy fleshed.  Many other fishermen have noticed this also.  So if you’re going to make a choice, go north where the real fighting bass hang out. Ahhhh, but George, everyone wants that ten pound HAWG!  And to get a HAWG you have to go south.  No one really seems to care that it will wallow in the mud and then show its belly like its namesake!  Can’t tell how hard a fish fought by looking at a picture! Hell, here in California we can’t even say HAWG, properly… Not even in southern California!

So you say you want bass, eh? Want some really fiesty bass? Not huge hawgs like you get in the southern US, but the smallmout bass here in Ontario are awesome. Get yourself up around Georgian Bay and bring some smallish poppers, nymphs, wooley buggers, crayfish imitations, etc. and hang on. I use a 6 wt 9 foot rod and I am in heaven.

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DEAR JIM: There is a remarkable difference in staying power between soft and weak southern strains of bass compared to damned yankee bass found in Lake Erie or let us say in Wisconsin, etc.  A lot of it has to do with oxygen content but overall, southern bass on the average are soft and mushy fleshed.  Many other fishermen have noticed this also.  So if you’re going to make a choice, go north where the real fighting bass hang out.

George,   I don’t know where you got your information on "southern" bass. There is a largemouth strain that is called "Florida bass" and have been transplanted to many other parts of the country, even to places outside the South. Are you saying that there is less oxygen in the lakes and rivers in the South than in the northern parts of the country and the causes the bass to become weak and mushy fleshed. Thats crazy. I’ve caught bass from Canada to Florida. Admittedly, a five-pound smallmouth in Canada (which is a whopper there) gives one heck of a fight. But tie into one like that in Dale Hollow (look it up on a map) or on the Holston and tell me about "weak southern fish". Go to Rodman (knowing about southern fish I’m sure that you know where this is) and hook-up with a big largemouth in the stump fields and tell me that he is weak and mushy.    As far as the flesh of the Florida bass goes, its as firm and good-tasting as any that I’ve eaten.    These are, of course, only my opinions which are based on anecdotal information. What are yours based on? A priori opinions, I suspect. —

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Question:

I am afraid my original comment might have gotten lost in the lengthy follow up to the Newt Gingrich and the Flyfisherman post. So again, this is for those involved in the original post, or at least those that didn’t know when to quit. Go away. When you are ready to discuss flyfishing, come back. — gp

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I am afraid my original comment might have gotten lost in the lengthy follow up to the Newt Gingrich and the Flyfisherman post. So again, this is for those involved in the original post, or at least those that didn’t know when to quit. Go away. When you are ready to discuss flyfishing, come back.

I find this a strange complaint from one who only 20 minutes earlier contributed to the thread about Newt and the Flyfisherman. Perhaps you folks north of the border have enough rivers or good enough government or businessmen who are sufficiently environmentally sensitive that you needn’t worry about the destruction of habitat including good trout water.  But here in the good old U.S. of A. we have to fight the sonsabitches that would destroy everything for an extra buck or an extra vote (and the Newter expects to get both). I’d rather talk and think about fishing, but if I want to be able to do some good fishing I’ve got to do what I can do to prevent the sonsabitches from having their way. And one of those things is to talk about the problem to get others to think and act effectively about it. Besides, from what I hear about the clearcutting going on in British Columbia, you haven’t got enough of those good things I mentioned at the beginning of the last paragraph. Phil Holt

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Question:

        On my first ocean cruise in 1981, I bought some "Offshore" foul weather gear at R.E.I. in Seattle.  Total piece of shit. After some pretty rough usage (we lost a rudder) and 31 days at sea, the seams leaked.  I took them back to R.E.I.  They said that they wern’t meant for the kind of sailing I do, but for the "weekend" sailor."  I said "Well why the fuck! do you call it "Offshore"? To make a long story short, they wouldn’t refund my money and it just confirmed my opinion of R.E.I. as a fashion house for frustrated yuuppies. Growing up in Seattle, I have resisted the R.E.I Clone look mightily although I have to admit, Pile Jackets are great for me as I’m allergic to wool.         Where is this leading to?         Buy Helly Hansen fisherman foul weather gear. No seams, no fly, no pockets, NO LEAK!!!!  I’ve worn mine for 10 years fishing in Alaska and California and on many trans ocean sails.  Still wearing them.  My mother is borrowing them for a river rafting trip this month.  About $80 last time I bought (I have two pair) —

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A foulie jacket should either have built-in flotation, or be light and flexible enough to be worn comfortabley with a pfd. This rules out most of the jackets on the market, imho. Ever try to swim in foulies and boots? Either buy an expensive float-coat (very warm, too) or get a light nylon shell (the kind made for white-water canoeing are perfect) and use it in conjuction with sweater or fleece jacket and a pfd, when called for.

I used a canoeing jacket for a few seasons. I don’t agree that it is the best choice for heavy weather sailing. It worked fine for an occational light spray, but it didn’t hold up for the constant pounding with water on rough days. I would quickly get all soaked. It was an enormous improvement when I bought a real foul weather jacket. My usual advice to new sailors is to spend money on the pants and boots, and wait on the jacket.

This makes sense. You’ll quickly wear out any light pants. At least the jacket doesn’t have to take all that abrasive abuse. I wear my pfd inside of a seriously oversized jacket. I have found that this gives me less problems with condensation than doing it the other way. It also reduces the risk of getting tangled in or caought somewhere, and keeps your pfd dry (= fewer wet things in the boat, wich is nice if you’re out for several days.) I don’t think the heavy foul weather gear makes me less mobile. I may feel less mobile after a few hours of constant hard work in a heavy weather race, but that’s because I’m tired. /m

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     I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" that I may want to look for?                                                         Thanks,                                                                 Doug — Tar is not a play thing..I will not steal school property..Spit balls are not free speach..I will not bribe principal Skinner..I will not Xerox(tm) my butt .I will not teach others to fly..I will not do that thing with my tongue..BART

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:      I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the : boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and : see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking : for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. : Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" : that I may want to look for? :                                                       Thanks, :                                                               Doug : — : Tar is not a play thing..I will not steal school property..Spit balls are not : free speach..I will not bribe principal Skinner..I will not Xerox(tm) my butt : .I will not teach others to fly..I will not do that thing with my tongue..BART — Is that "West" as in West Marine?  My wife and I both have their "Explorer" (? I think) foul weather gear and we are very happy with it.  It did quite well in Practical Sailor’s review of foulies, as well.   The ONLY down side of it that I’ve found is that it is a little heavy for warm weather sailing.  Since that’s not usually a problem here in the Pacific NW, I’m quite happy with it. Chas Douglass/the "Emma Christine" + When I was in school, I cheated on my metaphysics exam.              + + I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me.                + + Woody Allen                                                          +

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:      I just got the notion to go up to the lake Erie and check the cover on the : boat this weekend.  While I am up there I may as well go by the West store and : see if they have any of there foul weather gear on sale.  I will be looking : for a warm waterproof jacket suitable for use in the spring or fall sailing. : Does anyone have any recomendations regarding particullar brands or "features" : that I may want to look for? :                                                  Thanks, :                                                          Doug

Waterproof helps. Seriously, a big thing I cared about that many jackets didn’t address was adequate sealing about the neck. a $500 Henri Lloyd isn’t much good when spray hits you and runs inside the jacket repeatedly!!!! I got a pretty good deal on serious offshore gear – from Boat/US, actually. They sell other companies’ gear with their name on it – I have heard doubts about the quality, although mine has lasted very well. I hear Gore-Tex (Helly-Tech, whatever!) eventually leaks, but mine works okay for light spray. The PVC coating in my heavier gear, along with the sealed cuffs and neck, keep me surprisingly warm. It’s really too warm for active races. Alan Moore My opinions only.

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