Question:

I live in Utah and i am wondering what the best fly to use is. I Am fishing provo river and Hobble creek.  What would be the best fly to use for fishing lakes.  I have fished Scofeild and electric lake.  if you could help me i would appriciate it.

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I live in Utah and i am wondering what the best fly to use is.

The one that catches fish. Sorry, couldn’t resist

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As long as your muffler bearings have not gunkulated your framistat it is fairly harmless. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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I just can not wait to see the Fortenberry tartan !  Make sure you get photos ! TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Yeah, OK, so you’re justified in dropping an F-bomb on a guy for a first-time mistake.

You don’t read so well, first-time I said, and I quote: Try to learn a little something about the forum before you come barging in with a bunch of bullshit. It’s called netiquette and you’re in dire need of it. Now tell me why it is again that you called Vern a clueless idiot.

I called Vern a clueless idiot for the obvious reason. — Ken Fortenberry

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Mr. Dreamer,  the post from your grandson was loaded with potentially dangerous and extremely annoying features, dumping cookies, starting browsers, filling screens with HTML code,  initiating auto-dial-ups, etc. This is a very bad thing to do.  When I opened the post I got very alarmed at all the things it did before I could do anything to stop it.  It shot my machine down, and I was obliged to do a restart etc.  I was also obliged to attempt to delete it unread at first, and after trying this three times, and re-setting my machine, I was able to actually read the post, albeit by this time most unwillingly. Apart from which, this newsgroup discusses fly-fishing and not boats. Now at least you know what your grandson did wrong.  I doubt anybody wished to hurt him, but this sort of post is not only annoying, but potentially dangerous.   As you obviously know better, you can perhaps explain to him why what he did was wrong, and in future when you allow him to use your e-mail, you might supervise him a little more closely, and aid him in his endeavours.  Usenet or the internet in general is not the place to allow 10 year old boys free rein. If you or your grandson has any questions pertaining to fishing, then there are lots of people here, including Mr.Harrison, who would be only to pleased to help you. The gut reaction from many to posts which manipulate the machine is to immediately protest to the sender and the ISP of that sender. Regarding the information requested in the original post, there are two basic reasons for a two stroke motor smoking, one is too much oil in the mixture, and the second is the oil scraper rings are worn. This bungs up the spark plugs. If you take the plug out and it is covered in black soot, then one of these reasons is usually the problem. This will eventually also result in misfiring, and difficult starting. Two stroke motors are rarely used for fly-fishing per se. For this type of info, go to a boating group, or your local garage, marina  etc. This and other groups are not free information services. I am sure anybody would welcome a newbie on here with any genuine questions. If your grandson wishes to try again, WITHOUT ANY EXOTIC CODING IN THE MESSAGE, then I am sure both you and he will be pleasantly surprised. I hope this is of help to you. Tight lines ! Mike Connor — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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… this skirmish shall take place on a glen atop grandfather mountain at 2pm on may 8th in the year of our glorious salmo, 2000. standard scottish kilts shall be worn …

Nope, no way. I know what’s under a kilt, more to the point I know what’s NOT under a kilt. Janik can be Evil Ken Twin #1. Actually I prefer it that way, when I refer to him as #1, I feel positively Patrick Stewarty. — Ken Fortenberry

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Hey, who knows I just might be finding myself back in cowtown in the not so distant future.  And…hee hee hee…I know my way around DCL.  Don’t worry, I’ll be armed with Bud as a peace offering.  :-)

Oh gawd, another "corporate partner" come to rape the alma mater. 1412 DCL, and check the "born on date", stale Bud ain’t no peace offering. — Ken Fortenberry

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What can you expect from a jerk? Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip There wasn’t malice in the first post but the second post was definitely out of line. You do not post private email to a USENET newsgroup without the authors permission, and I am assuming that Ernie didn’t give his permission to post that rather mild rebuke to ROFF. That’s malice #1, whether they have enough of a clue to realize it or not, it is definitely malice of a most egregious nature. Fuck ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

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Rhode Island Dreamer,    If you are going to turn your grandson loose with your computer you should teach him news group regulations.  He sent a bunch of crap which tied up my computer and made me shut down the program just to get rid of it.  If your grandson wants to communicate with this news group let him do it in plain English.  He will find the group is friendly and helpful.  I guess the rest of the group told you what they think about his message and yours. I’ll just say wake up jerk, if you weren’t dreaming perhaps you would know what your grandson is doing. Ernie Harrison I hope that someone can help me. My grandson (10) was on his grandfather’s email so that he could go to discuss: fly fishing. Fly fishing is his favorite. He wrote in on a few questions, that he knew back(included below). Not exactly what I thought good sportsmanship was all about. I have always put fisherman up there with people I like to associate with.  One bad apple spoils it for everyone. My grandson was so hurt. He didn’t know what he did wrong and now doesn’t  want to cotribute to the discuuss group any more.     CAN"T BLAME HIM, CAN YOU! X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 What the hell do you think this is? Quit posting the Webb junk to this news group Ernie Harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 1:43 PM

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There wasn’t malice in the first post but the second post was definitely out of line. You do not post private email to a USENET newsgroup without the authors permission, and I am assuming that Ernie didn’t give his permission to post that rather mild rebuke to ROFF.

Yeah, OK, so you’re justified in dropping an F-bomb on a guy for a first-time mistake. Now tell me why it is again that you called Vern a clueless idiot a few days ago for dropping an F-bomb on someone who spammed the group? Seems to me if you’re gonna ream some guy for trying to explain the errant newsgroup behavior of his grandkid you’d certainly champion the cause of anyone who would rail on newsgroup spammers. You cannot possibly think the grandpa or the grandson knew any better–yet that’s essentially the same defense you used in your "take-a-chill-you-idiot" post to Vern. –Steve

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … but unless I’m missing something on this one, it seems uncalled for…and I’m not generally considered a softie on these things. Ah HAH ! SO, you relinquish the title Evil Ken Twin #1  ?? Hey, I gotta have something to keep my edge sharp on. With George killfiled and Timmy giving up his mental cluster fuck lately I guess I’m just getting rusty. Newbies just aren’t much fun to pick on IMHO.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

let me see if i understand this…. some clueless newbie posts a message with a obscene webtv html sig (killfiled his honor immediately)….. ernie, in moderation rebukes him…. grandma gets in a huff…. et1 is moderate…..ET2, seeing a chink in ET1’s armor, wants to wrestle the blooded praetorial monniker away from ET1…. yup, makes sense to me….. as clavemeister, i call for a meeting of the et’s to settle this most unpleasant matter. this skirmish shall take place on a glen atop grandfather mountain at 2pm on may 8th in the year of our glorious salmo, 2000. standard scottish kilts shall be worn and the combatatants, aside from their mercurious wit, shall be armed with cabers and blarney stones and of course, proper drink. last man standing takes the name. waldo

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… but unless I’m missing something on this one, it seems uncalled for…and I’m not generally considered a softie on these things.

Ah HAH ! SO, you relinquish the title Evil Ken Twin #1  ?? By your own admission, I am the more Evil of the Evil Ken Twins. Please change your moniker to ET2. — Ken Fortenberry- it was just a matter of time

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… but unless I’m missing something on this one, it seems uncalled for…and I’m not generally considered a softie on these things. Ah HAH ! SO, you relinquish the title Evil Ken Twin #1  ??

Hey, I gotta have something to keep my edge sharp on. With George killfiled and Timmy giving up his mental cluster fuck lately I guess I’m just getting rusty. Newbies just aren’t much fun to pick on IMHO.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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– Other ROFFians laugh with glee?

FWIW, the experience with the dentist wasn’t fun nor was it, in my opinion, called for. If he had tried the extremely cold test on the bad tooth and I didn’t feel it we could have gone right on with the root canal, IMO. I didn’t think I was laughing with glee about anything, then or now. — Charlie…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me get this straight: – Some kid, or potentially clueless adult posted an innocent   question, but had the mime and/or html set on their browser. – Some ROFFian reamed them for it. – Kid’s parents, grandparents, or potentially same clueless adult   posts whining about the treatment. – Some ROFFian reams them for it. – Other ROFFians laugh with glee? Yeah, usenet is rough, but should we really go out of our way to be rough?  When there is malice on the newbie’s part I can understand it, but unless I’m missing something on this one, it seems uncalled for…and I’m not generally considered a softie on these things.

There wasn’t malice in the first post but the second post was definitely out of line. You do not post private email to a USENET newsgroup without the authors permission, and I am assuming that Ernie didn’t give his permission to post that rather mild rebuke to ROFF. That’s malice #1, whether they have enough of a clue to realize it or not, it is definitely malice of a most egregious nature. Fuck ‘em. — Ken Fortenberry

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I hope that someone can help me.

USENET newsgroups are not "discuss" groups for every muddle headed moron with a webTV account. If you or your 10 year old wants to participate here, learn how to do it right. For what it’s worth, Ernie Harrison was quite polite given the circumstances. Now, fuck off. Hope this helps. — Ken Fortenberry

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I hope that someone can help me. My grandson (10) was on his grandfather’s email so that he could go to discuss: fly fishing. Fly fishing is his favorite. He wrote in on a few questions, that he knew back(included below). Not exactly what I thought good sportsmanship was all about. I have always put fisherman up there with people I like to associate with.  One bad apple spoils it for everyone. My grandson was so hurt. He didn’t know what he did wrong and now doesn’t  want to cotribute to the discuuss group any more.     CAN"T BLAME HIM, CAN YOU!

Sorry your grandson got singed, but all of that music and pictures and junk in the webTV signatures is considered very rude on text-only newsgroups, and cost European subscribers that pay by the minute a lot of money to download the big files.  The only people who can enforce these rules are the newsgroup users.  The responses were probably a little too harsh, but no one expects kids to actually read roff with all the politics and BS they’d have to wade through. — Levi "There are no facts, only interpretations." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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For what it’s worth, Ernie Harrison was quite polite given the circumstances. Now, fuck off. Hope this helps.

LOL.   This is one of those threads that I catch the end of then have to go back and see where it started. Joe F.

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LOL.   This is one of those threads that I catch the end of then have to go back and see where it started.

Oh, now I understand. Joe F.

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Hope this helps. I had a root canal a few weeks ago and, before he did it, the dentist wanted to verify that the root was dead. He did this by touching the tooth with an extremely cold object. The bad news was that he calibrated it by testing a known good tooth first so I would know what extreme pain felt like. Forty provides the same service on roff<g.

ROFLMAO.     Is it safe? Joe F.

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Oh, now I understand.

Except for how he got Jack Webb’s TV. Joe F.

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Hope this helps.

I had a root canal a few weeks ago and, before he did it, the dentist wanted to verify that the root was dead. He did this by touching the tooth with an extremely cold object. The bad news was that he calibrated it by testing a known good tooth first so I would know what extreme pain felt like. Forty provides the same service on roff<g. — Charlie…

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Hey, Ernie, why didn’t you tell them what you *really* felt?   <g Dave L.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hope this helps. I had a root canal a few weeks ago and, before he did it, the dentist wanted to verify that the root was dead. He did this by touching the tooth with an extremely cold object. The bad news was that he calibrated it by testing a known good tooth first so I would know what extreme pain felt like. Forty provides the same service on roff<g. ROFLMAO.     Is it safe? Joe F.

Let me get this straight: – Some kid, or potentially clueless adult posted an innocent   question, but had the mime and/or html set on their browser. – Some ROFFian reamed them for it. – Kid’s parents, grandparents, or potentially same clueless adult   posts whining about the treatment. – Some ROFFian reams them for it. – Other ROFFians laugh with glee? Yeah, usenet is rough, but should we really go out of our way to be rough?  When there is malice on the newbie’s part I can understand it, but unless I’m missing something on this one, it seems uncalled for…and I’m not generally considered a softie on these things.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

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– Other ROFFians laugh with glee? FWIW, the experience with the dentist wasn’t fun nor was it, in my opinion, called for. If he had tried the extremely cold test on the bad tooth and I didn’t feel it we could have gone right on with the root canal, IMO. I didn’t think I was laughing with glee about anything, then or now.

Wasn’t necessarily replying to your message or portion of the thread. Yours just happened to be the message I had handy after going back and reading the beginning of the thread.      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

Response:

I hope that someone can help me. My grandson (10) was on his grandfather’s email so that he could go to discuss: fly fishing. Fly fishing is his favorite. He wrote in on a few questions, that he knew back(included below). Not exactly what I thought good sportsmanship was all about. I have always put fisherman up there with people I like to associate with.  One bad apple spoils it for everyone. My grandson was so hurt. He didn’t know what he did wrong and now doesn’t  want to cotribute to the discuuss group any more.       CAN"T BLAME HIM, CAN YOU! X-MSMail-Priority:

Question:

Enjoyed your report, I was up that way a couple of weeks ago and went to Steep Banks. 12 guys standing around casting into one small pool, it might be famous but it did not interest me. Waded on up the river but had no luck except in a couple of small pools.  ;The word was that the fish would be in the river in a couple of weeks, but I could not wait  so moved over to Upper Dam and caught a couple of 15inch salmon and three trout close in but was not interested in standing out in the flow for three hours in one spot to catch a fish.  The one thing I have to say was that the whole area was dead drop beautiful  but guess I still prefer the mountains of North Carolina , climbing over the rocks to catch a 8inch trout.     Indian Joe Wilmington N.C.

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Great report, Allen.  Too bad you could not make it to the Rapid.  I am heading up to the East Branch of the Kennebec this week with a couple of friends.  And, yes, I’m bringing warm clothes. Dave L.

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Dave and Injun, The whole trip really cemented in my mind where my wife and I will end up living in a few years. Hope youu don’t mind sharing the fish and birds! Allen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Allen.  Too bad you could not make it to the Rapid.  I am heading up to the East Branch of the Kennebec this week with a couple of friends.  And, yes, I’m bringing warm clothes. Dave L.

  gaepps.vcf

< 1K Download

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Folks, Work has been keeping me from even lurking the last few weeks but SWMBO and I have just returned from a trip north to RI for her folks 50th anniversary and then up to Rangeley ME for a week to help a friend winter prep his camp and wet a line for a bit. I’ve never been up that way before but from all the folks I talked to the water was way low and the fishing slow. Our friends camp is "Fiddlehead" just below Bald Mtn on Rangeley lake but ended up fishing the Kennebunk pretty far down. "Steep Bank" came highly recommended but "take a number" fishing is not my bag anymore. We hiked up the stream a bit and despite having spent a lot of time in the woods it’s pretty easy to see how folks become lost in the Maine woods. Thick does not begin to describe it and had to restart the heart once due to flushing Grouse. Upstream was shallow and no real cover so back down to what we found later was called "Trout Rock" Gorgeous little pool with a steep rock pile on one side and about 6′ deep. Started by casting #10 Black Ghost (might as well start local). Ended up going up and down a bit and finally settled on a #16 Brassie. That turned out to surprisingly be the ticket. 4 nice Brookies all about 12-14 inches. Such gorgeous fish my hands trembled releasing them. Finally a Salmon showed some interest. The barest tap and I was on to a 19" fish that explored all corners of the pool before coming to net. Again, I was awed by the colors and spirit of the fish. My wife and I got up early the next morning and headed to the the stream running from the Little Kennebago. Bright day but cold (28 F) and no wind. If you didn’t see the ice forming in your guides you wouldn’t have noticed the cold. A couple strikes but no fish did see a beaver and had to come to a complete stop on the way home to let a brace of Grouse get out of the road. Just before we joined rt. 16 again had a cow Moose stop right along side the road and stare as we stopped to take her picture. This was the first time my wife has fly fished and I think she got the picture that’s its not just the fish. Sorry for the general disjointness of this report but as we just got home I thought I’d drop in and try and break up the politics Before I lost the mental pictures I brought home. With work being all consuming at times we have to stop and spend time afield with rod or gun to put things in perspective. Allen Epps Catonsville MD

  gaepps.vcf

< 1K Download

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Question:

Look, you ignorant fool.  I’ll mess with you until hell freezes over. If I remember correctly, (and I do) she wanted the address so we could send a massive surprise to everyone attending – Perhaps they had no reason to believe that. Perhaps Waldo wasn’t in the habit of giving out addresses over the phone to people who don’t identify themselves. I don’t blame him if that’s the reason. _____NO.  You are NOT an honest person and businessman.  You gripe too much, you have a temper that is unreasonable and you always make sure you get your pound of flesh when you’re wrong . . . which is often. THAT, my dear pal is a fact of life regarding you.

oh man, this is really rich. George, the "psycho" analyst see ya george, walt

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There you go, sugar coating your anti-georgian diatribes agian. Com’on Wolfie.  Take the gloves off <g.

Georgie has always brought out the best in me, as he has in all of us. We have much to thank him for. Or, as the inimitable Mr. Johnson once put it, "No one could possibly think more highly of him than I do, and I do not think much of him at all."      :)

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[deleted] I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date.

Don’t even think about not walking out. Ain’t an option. There’s damned few of us left as it is. I’m going to log off now and say the best prayer that I know how. We’re with ya George. Your pal. — TBone

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I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date.

Best of luck to you, George, you miserable sack of shit. Are you having your plumbing upgraded? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Wolfgang Siebeneich wrote … Did it never occur to you, you miserable fucking excuse for a human being that there might be people on this planet to whom an added expense, however small, might actually be a burden?  And did it never occur to you that the contributions already made by the people who brought off this clave are already a great deal more than you could ever hope to do despite your wealth?  Remember the parable of the poor woman who gave all that she had, you worthless piece of excrement? "…one cents worth"?  You vastly overestimate your value.

There you go, sugar coating your anti-georgian diatribes agian. Com’on Wolfie.  Take the gloves off <g. —                                                       -dnc-

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I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date. Best of luck to you, George, you miserable sack of shit. Are you having your plumbing upgraded?

medical center.  They not only love my money they love me as many doctors are fly fishermen.  If I have a chance at all, I’m in the right place rw. I could say I hope your wife leaves you, or your kids fails in school but the ultimate insult would be to wish your dog dies which I won’t do.  Therefore, I hope your wife leaves you and marries her boy friend and that I end up with your dog.  How’s that for miserable shit? : ) — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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medical center.  They not only love my money they love me as many doctors are fly fishermen.  If I have a chance at all, I’m in the right place rw. I could say I hope your wife leaves you, or your kids fails in school but the ultimate insult would be to wish your dog dies which I won’t do.  Therefore, I hope your wife leaves you and marries her boy friend and that I end up with your dog.

That’s looking more and more probable all the time. You’ll never get my dog, though. Again, George, good luck. Listen to the doctors. Do what they say. Don’t be a pain in the ass. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – medical center.  They not only love my money they love me as many doctors are fly fishermen.  If I have a chance at all, I’m in the right place rw. I could say I hope your wife leaves you, or your kids fails in school but the ultimate insult would be to wish your dog dies which I won’t do.  Therefore, I hope your wife leaves you and marries her boy friend and that I end up with your dog. That’s looking more and more probable all the time. You’ll never get my dog, though. Again, George, good luck. Listen to the doctors. Do what they say. Don’t be a pain in the ass. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

_____  I am never that.  I’m the kind of patient doctors love.  I’m a fighter.  I walked out of the Mayo Clinic 13 years ago after my by-passes in five days and flew my own airplane home.  It was a new Mayo Clinic record.  If I die, it will be Walt Winters fault. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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George writes: I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date. Good luck, George. Dave LaCourse

______  These will be the last words I will take with me when they apply the gas David. Thanks, — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled.

George, Doug’s Flies were raffled at the Fall Ball as they didn’t reach Wayno’s clave in time. He was made aware of that. I know it’s none of my business, but since it concerns roff, have you paid back Doug yet all that money, it has been a year? I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.

George, I kept your winnings from the first raffle and re-entered them in the fall ball in a moment of heartfelt concern. My mistake,  I should have sent them you… Various non-gink floatants and Orvis products. I guess I should have sent them to you so you could at least see what the hell a quality product is like. George, I would have guessed that you would know better by now not to mess with me. BTW, you spineless twit, having Gladys call me anonymously prior to the clave to acquire centrals address was really in poor taste. It was fun listening to her stammer as I kept asking her who I was speaking to. You go George, you really do, straight to hell. Unlike you George, I am an honest person and businessman. I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave.

George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket.   I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Dementia? See ya pal, Waldo

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Walt quotes and writes:   I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled. George, Doug’s Flies were raffled at the Fall Ball as they didn’t reach Wayno’s clave in time. He was made aware of that. I know it’s none of my business, but since it concerns roff, have you paid back Doug yet all that money, it has been a year? I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them. George, I kept your winnings from the first raffle and re-entered them in the fall ball in a moment of heartfelt concern. My mistake,  I should have sent them you… Various non-gink floatants and Orvis products. I guess I should have sent them to you so you could at least see what the hell a quality product is like. George, I would have guessed that you would know better by now not to mess with me. BTW, you spineless twit, having Gladys call me anonymously prior to the clave to acquire centrals address was really in poor taste. It was fun listening to her stammer as I kept asking her who I was speaking to. You go George, you really do, straight to hell. Unlike you George, I am an honest person and businessman. I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket. I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Dementia? See ya pal, Waldo

Doug Knight’s flies were won by someone at the fall ball and we all raved about the quality of the flies.  It was one of the most coveted of gifts.  I believe Doug won something, I can not recall what, and it was either shipped to him or he turned it down.   My biggest concern about Doug is wondering if he ever got paid for the rods he built.   George won one of my donations to the May Clave 1999.  I believe it was a bottle of floatant and some strike indicators, all marketed by Orvis.  If George would like, I will purchase more of the same and *gladly* send them to him.  But, he has to promise to use them and not throw them in the trash can. <g Dave  d;0)

Response:

< snipped a lot of vocal diarrhea Mr. G.

Damn, every time I think he is finally gone he shows up again. Turn on your filters. Ernie Harrison

Response:

  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled. George, Doug’s Flies were raffled at the Fall Ball as they didn’t reach Wayno’s clave in time. He was made aware of that. I know it’s none of my business, but since it concerns roff, have you paid back Doug yet all that money, it has been a year?

______  Well frankly, it’s none of your business, is it?   I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them. George, I kept your winnings from the first raffle and re-entered them in the fall ball in a moment of heartfelt concern. My mistake,  I should have sent them you… Various non-gink floatants and Orvis products. I guess I should have sent them to you so you could at least see what the hell a quality product is like. George, I would have guessed that you would know better by now not to mess with me. BTW, you spineless twit, having Gladys call me anonymously prior to the clave to acquire centrals address was really in poor taste. It was fun listening to her stammer as I kept asking her who I was speaking to. You go George, you really do, straight to hell.

Look, you ignorant fool.  I’ll mess with you until hell freezes over. If I remember correctly, (and I do) she wanted the address so we could send a massive surprise to everyone attending – but because of YOU, you ungrateful moron, everyone didn’t get the shipment.  Talk about spineless twit, that best describes you and your continued name calling only lowers you.  I’ve had you figured out for a long time pal and you are frankly "a user."  As long as something benefits YOU, you’re all for it.  Anytime you touch anything, there has to be a hook in it so you can get your share.  Why is that Walt? Yes, I don’t care what the prizes were, you had no right to auction off the prizes, as you said.  The question is, where is my money?  Another way to ask it, is what did you DO with the money?  Use it to help pay shipping costs? What is so lousy about you is your sense of fun.   Unlike you George, I am an honest person and businessman.

_____NO.  You are NOT an honest person and businessman.  You gripe too much, you have a temper that is unreasonable and you always make sure you get your pound of flesh when you’re wrong . . . which is often. THAT, my dear pal is a fact of life regarding you.   I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket.

______  Well, I’ll let you buy my casket with all the money you seem to squeeze out of everyone with your ’surprise tactics’.  I’m sure when I die, no one of your caliber will be able to fill the void.  Dying for me will be soon enough.  I’m sure that news will make your day.     I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Dementia? See ya pal,

______ I’m sure when you do, the pleasure will be all yours.   Waldo (The cry-baby of ROFF) The man that always bites the hands that feed him.  

– Just remember this Walt.  This thread started with an offer by us to help with the prizes being shipped.  If you can’t handle it, let a man do the job next time.  I certainly was impressed with daytripper’s efforts and post this morning.  Why is that? Because its the WAY he does things.  He and I may have differences but at least he has a real ’sense’ for fairness.  That, I will give him. You, on the other hand, are nothing more than a hustler. This is my final answer. Mr.G http://www.gink.com

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George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket.

Um, wouidn’t that be a pyre on a float boat?  Send it UPS…

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_______  It appears to me that your false misgivings regarding others is a continued sham of lies.  

That you’re a miserable excuse for a person? That isn’t a lie. It’s an opinion. An extreme one, but defensible. I am not old

Just old enough to fly an F-86 upside down over the Kremlin during the Korean War… If shipping is a ball breaker, then there is such a thing as Shipping C.O.D. <snip I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.

Maybe they shipped UPS? "My father said to be strong, ‘that a good man could  never do wrong’ in a dream I had last night in America"                             -Los Lobos

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Dear Mr G    Have never hearde your biographicsal stories but hope you will join me at Western clave for some fishing time. You must have some good stories because the guys at the claves always mentiomn them. This last clave was sort of a bummer for me.  Only three or four of the guys were willing to give up a day of fishing with new friends to suffer thru a day watching me hang up in trees  and watching the fish exit the pools before I could get set up for casting standing in the middle of the pool. One guy even took pictures of me fishing and showed them to the crowd at night,  showing no real concern for a  brginner like me who is real bashful  and self conscinus.  I was not lucky at the raaffel as I won only a reel and a matching line, not a single fly!! And some of those guys a really cheap.  Tom  probably spent a couple of hundred dollars feeding everyone and Walt  only invest a couple of hundred in the clave package everyone received when they arrived.The worst thing was Palmico Jim  who drank one half of a boddle of Reserve Wild Turkey someone donated, that only left half a bottle for me.  Hope you western guys tread Indians a little better , and the fish are easier to catch,  Indian Joe

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Look, you ignorant fool.  I’ll mess with you until hell freezes over. If I remember correctly, (and I do) she wanted the address so we could send a massive surprise to everyone attending –

Perhaps they had no reason to believe that. Perhaps Waldo wasn’t in the habit of giving out addresses over the phone to people who don’t identify themselves. I don’t blame him if that’s the reason. _____NO.  You are NOT an honest person and businessman.  You gripe too much, you have a temper that is unreasonable and you always make sure you get your pound of flesh when you’re wrong . . . which is often. THAT, my dear pal is a fact of life regarding you.  

Have you paid Doug Knight yet? "My father said to be strong, ‘that a good man could  never do wrong’ in a dream I had last night in America"                             -Los Lobos

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That would be a waste of a good float boat, how about a box of matches and an old inner tube? Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George, here’s a silver tael, buy yourself a casket. Um, wouidn’t that be a pyre on a float boat?  Send it UPS…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Mr G    Have never hearde your biographicsal stories but hope you will join me at Western clave for some fishing time. You must have some good stories because the guys at the claves always mentiomn them. This last clave was sort of a bummer for me.  Only three or four of the guys were willing to give up a day of fishing with new friends to suffer thru a day watching me hang up in trees  and watching the fish exit the pools before I could get set up for casting standing in the middle of the pool. One guy even took pictures of me fishing and showed them to the crowd at night,  showing no real concern for a  brginner like me who is real bashful  and self conscinus.  I was not lucky at the raaffel as I won only a reel and a matching line, not a single fly!! And some of those guys a really cheap.  Tom  probably spent a couple of hundred dollars feeding everyone and Walt  only invest a couple of hundred in the clave package everyone received when they arrived.The worst thing was Palmico Jim  who drank one half of a boddle of Reserve Wild Turkey someone donated, that only left half a bottle for me.  Hope you western guys tread Indians a little better , and the fish are easier to catch,  Indian Joe

_____  Well Joe, you wouldn’t be pulling my chain now, would you?  LOL. If it is possible, I would be pleased to go fishing with you.  Just you and I.  Tom has a big heart and is a first class act.  No doubting that Joseph.   I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date. — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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Have you paid Doug Knight yet? "My father said to be strong, ‘that a good man could  never do wrong’ in a dream I had last night in America"                             -Los Lobos

_____ Do you still beat your wife Mike? — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/shopcart/index.html

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George writes: I have to go back to the Mayo Clinic this week end.  If I walk out of it, you have a date.

Good luck, George. Dave LaCourse

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My one cents worth gents…. If you guys are too cheap to handle the shipping, ship all the prizes and send me the bill.  I’ll pay for it.  Its the least I can do for my fellow "Sportsmen".

You know George, after determining that you truly are a sick man, I had promised myself that I would no longer respond to any more of your demented ravings, but this latest attempt to aggrandize yourself at the expense of someone who has gone to a great deal of trouble and expense to provide a wonderful experience to a lot of people to whom he owed nothing is really too much to bear silently.  Did it never occur to you, you miserable fucking excuse for a human being that there might be people on this planet to whom an added expense, however small, might actually be a burden?  And did it never occur to you that the contributions already made by the people who brought off this clave are already a great deal more than you could ever hope to do despite your wealth?  Remember the parable of the poor woman who gave all that she had, you worthless piece of excrement? "…one cents worth"?  You vastly overestimate your value.

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_____  I was supposed to get my prize last year, which I never got. Guess SOMEONE must have sold it to start up his business? Frankly, I think there should be a silent auction AFTER Roff decides to support a faction regarding trout and/or streams.  I think using funds to support a newsletter or a favorite Catch and Release Stream (making T-Bone the President) might have merit. There is nothing wrong with Roff that thinking of improving our sport wouldn’t help. When a conclave has finished and so many complaints are written regarding "some thoughts" as found in a bad "After Drink" I would say the stream has some rogue fish in it. My one cents worth gents.  Anyone who bitches about shipping expenses is nothing more than a cheap date.  Ship the dang prizes because that is the department the prize holders KNEW was part of the deal.  Why cause trouble and make others feel they are trouble to others for winning?  I would think any one of the touted lawyers could afford at least that expense for the Conclave. If you guys are too cheap to handle the shipping, ship all the prizes and send me the bill.  I’ll pay for it.  Its the least I can do for my fellow "Sportsmen".   — Mr.G http://www.gink.com/chat

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snipped stupidity: _______  It appears to me that your false misgivings regarding others is a continued sham of lies.  I am not old and I’m not demented and I’m certainly not stooping to silly ravings.  It’s you that goes over board to defame others you piece of worthless mouse shit.  It is not me that is crying about expenses and what you take to be an aggrandizement is indeed a false charge. Listen ace.  I’m not the one that is bitching and complaining about anything except the complaining that continues regarding the prizes at all the ‘Eastern Conclaves?’  I didn’t start it but I’m certainly able to assist in it.  Whoever is in control of distributing the prizes needs to pay for the shipping.  He or They KNEW that was part of the deal. Why cry in public about what it takes to ship things?  The shipping charges should be part of "That Person’s" donation to making the conclave a success.  Are you trying to tell me and everyone now that THAT wasn’t ‘assumed’ or known, or a fact of life issue?  If shipping is a ball breaker, then there is such a thing as Shipping C.O.D. No it doesn’t occur to me that anyone that can travel to a conclave to have fun with ‘the boys,’ is hurting financially.  I’m just tired of listening to the gripes and bickering and poor me alligator tears that continue since the first time around regarding prize problems.  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled.  I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.  Let’s call it the way it is. He never followed through.  I regard that as a cheap shot just like some who cannot afford to get the gifts to the people who won and deserved them.  Get it pal?  (Or hasn’t your elevator reached the top floor yet?) Look, its alright for me to donate expensive fly rods to charity and for worthwhile causes, right?  But when it comes my turn to get a cheap T-shirt – I don’t rate? Give me a break!  And that isn’t all of it pal. So I would appreciate it if you would continue to mind your own business Wolfgang and stop talking about those things you know little or nothing about.  Okay? I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. Incidentally Wolfgang, you stooping to name calling of others really is uncalled for. Sometimes, principle is more valuable and is the cement of friendships.  I certainly have the sense that there are some who are not happy about certain prize events.  All I’m saying is if there is a financial problem, I’m here to help with it even though I didn’t attend the conclave (as much as I wanted to).  I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Mr. G.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snipped stupidity: _______  It appears to me that your false misgivings regarding others is a continued sham of lies.  I am not old and I’m not demented and I’m certainly not stooping to silly ravings.  It’s you that goes over board to defame others you piece of worthless mouse shit.  It is not me that is crying about expenses and what you take to be an aggrandizement is indeed a false charge. Listen ace.  I’m not the one that is bitching and complaining about anything except the complaining that continues regarding the prizes at all the ‘Eastern Conclaves?’  I didn’t start it but I’m certainly able to assist in it.  Whoever is in control of distributing the prizes needs to pay for the shipping.  He or They KNEW that was part of the deal. Why cry in public about what it takes to ship things?  The shipping charges should be part of "That Person’s" donation to making the conclave a success.  Are you trying to tell me and everyone now that THAT wasn’t ‘assumed’ or known, or a fact of life issue?  If shipping is a ball breaker, then there is such a thing as Shipping C.O.D. No it doesn’t occur to me that anyone that can travel to a conclave to have fun with ‘the boys,’ is hurting financially.  I’m just tired of listening to the gripes and bickering and poor me alligator tears that continue since the first time around regarding prize problems.  I know for a fact that Doug Knight donated some mighty fine flies and he never got a thank you, go to hell or kiss my ass.  If my memory serves me right, his flies never were delivered or there was a short-coming which really isn’t my business that upset him.  I know the man was not pleased the way his donation was handled.  I’m also annoyed that none of my prizes were not shipped to me.  Walt Winter kept them.  Let’s call it the way it is. He never followed through.  I regard that as a cheap shot just like some who cannot afford to get the gifts to the people who won and deserved them.  Get it pal?  (Or hasn’t your elevator reached the top floor yet?) Look, its alright for me to donate expensive fly rods to charity and for worthwhile causes, right?  But when it comes my turn to get a cheap T-shirt – I don’t rate? Give me a break!  And that isn’t all of it pal. So I would appreciate it if you would continue to mind your own business Wolfgang and stop talking about those things you know little or nothing about.  Okay? I repeat.  If you guys can’t afford the shipping of prizes, I will back the clave up.  Its the least I can do for the clave. Incidentally Wolfgang, you stooping to name calling of others really is uncalled for. Sometimes, principle is more valuable and is the cement of friendships.  I certainly have the sense that there are some who are not happy about certain prize events.  All I’m saying is if there is a financial problem, I’m here to help with it even though I didn’t attend the conclave (as much as I wanted to).  I just had other matters to look after that were beyond my control. Mr. G.

ahh G, so good to have you back.  hope you’re doin ok. we all missed you at Waldo’s Spring Fling…there were waterfalls climbed in your absence. jeff

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Question:

Where can I get a good online map that shows the rivers in the Glacier NP area? Thanks in advance!

Don’t know about an online map.  What you really want is the book "Fly Fishing the Blackfeet Country" by Robert F. Fairchild.  I think the best fly fishing in the lower 48 is in the lakes of the Blackfeet reservation, which is everything east of Glacier for about an hours drive.  The rivers of the Blackfeet Res also have some decent fishing if you are into smaller fish.  If fishing is your thing instead of site seeing, I wouldn’t even bother with the park proper.  A tribal fishing permit costs about $35/yr.  No state licenses are required while on the reservation.

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Where can I get a good online map that shows the rivers in the Glacier NP area? Thanks in advance!

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writes: Where can I get a good online map that shows the rivers in the Glacier NP area? Thanks in advance!

Hey, Timbo.  Judging by the address, you should probably handle this one. Is he family?   <G Dave L.      —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free Usenet News via the Web  —–      —–  http://newsone.net/ —  Discussions on every subject. —–    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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Question:

This is mutating the topic somewhat, but here goes: I like the "Trilene knot" quite a bit.  It retains much of the original line strength and is just as easy to tie as a regular clinch knot.  The name irritates me, however.  Can a line company truly lay claim to a knot?  Must we make an advertisement for somebody every time we teach someone this knot?  Is it known by any other name? Pete C

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If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."

I do hope that this isn’t the case! My researches would really go down the plug hole, were it so. The mind boggles at the possibilities: the ‘bond traders’ hitch for tying up your mule; the ‘gynaecologists twist’ for wire shock tippets; the ‘lawyers loop’ (not safe; too slippery!) ….. the possibilities are endless. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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<all the good stuff snipped (this is going to get confusing).

Funny thing about knots; while I’ve never had any trouble tying them, talking about them has always made my head spin.  Reading back through this thread I find myself getting a bit dizzy. TL!

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Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot".

<rest snipped and neatly tied off with a surgeon’s knot… Your description is right Wolfgang.  As a Vascular and Thoracic surgeon, I think I can speak with some knowledge on such things  Basically, a surgeon’s knot is a reef knot, usually tied with one hand against the held-out strand of the other end of the ‘thread’.  The double-throw variant is also used for extra security when needed. By that, I mean TWICE round instead of once per layer as in the simple reef knot.   Usually, the reef knot is extended by several more ‘throws’ however – it is not common to use just the two throws, or layers.  Many surgical suture materials are monofilament and slippery, to aid in passing through tissues without cutting through, so they tend to slip when knotted, therefore most surgeons would tie at least 5 throws in these materials, with perhaps 3 in braided materials that slip less. There are obviously numerous variations also, such as deliberately tying a ‘granny’ knot – both throws in the same direction rather than opposite directions – so that the knot can be ’snugged’ down while still having some friction, then finishing off with a throw in the opposite direction to lock the knot. The "Surgeon’s Knot" as described in the fishing books is nothing like a ‘real’ surgeon’s knot.  I don’t know how it got its name. — Pete, Brisbane, Australia To reply by email, remove the "SPAMLESS" from the address in the header.

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I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time.

Very interesting Wolfgang. What you have described is exactly the ’surgeon’s knot’, as described by Cyrus Day, as I cited in my original post. That’s good for me, because it supports the current use of the name for that particular knot (i.e., a ’square knot’ with two twists along each edge). Your earlier post, re. the ‘water knot’ you have used in climbing and the method of its construction is exactly that described by Day in his book. I suspect that the single overhand ‘water knot’ was adequate as an angler’s knot in the days of horsehair. The two, three and four turn versions were clearly developed to produce a safe knot when using the slippery synthetic line materials that came along later. Going back to the ’surgeon’s knot’, you mentioned the ‘granny knot’ as being unsafe cf. the ’square knot’ (which in Britain we more usually call the ‘reef knot’). In the 1991 edition of ‘Practical Fishing Knots’, by Sosin and Kreh, the authors describe what they call the ’simple blood knot’. This is nothing like a normal ‘blood knot’, but is slightly similar to the real ’surgeons knot’ as you described (this is going to get confusing). The big difference is that it is in fact a ‘granny knot’, but with seven twists along the two parallel edges of the box. It looks odd, but Sosin and Kreh claim nearly 100% knot efficiency for it. Thanks for the posts: interesting, but doesn’t really get me closer to tracking down when the two turn ‘water knot’ started being called the ’surgeons knot’. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

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I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers.

If you’d be satisfied with a guess, the name could have originated simply because it was a knot initially devised by a surgeon in a fishing club: "Hey, where’d you learn that knot?"   "It’s the surgeon’s knot."   Even in that context, it could still have origins in medical usage while not necessarily keeping its surgical configuration.   If you get a real answer, please share it. Joe F.

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Hi Tony :   The Surgeon’s knot is the ones described by the other people in their replies, as a double and then a stacked set of two single throws that is used to close an incision. The knot that we use to tie on leaders etc. that we call a surgeon’s knot is also used to join Rib Stitch cord that is used to hold the cloth covering onto an airplane wing when the stitcher has misjudged the length and needs a bit more to finish the rib correctly.   Just thought that you might find it of interest.    Jim Rahn    Guelph, Ontario,    Canada – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m doing some research into knots. Can anyone give me early (the earliest!) references to the ’surgeons knot’ (preferably with an unequivocal diagram or detailed description of the tying procedure) as it is currently understood by anglers. In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted. My difficulty is that the modern appellation of this knot as the ’surgeons knot’ seems to be relatively modern. Practising surgeons (non-anglers) stare at you blankly when you show them this knot. The great American authority on knots, the late Prof. Cyrus Lawrence Day, shows a completely different knot in his ‘The Art of Knotting and Splicing’. The surgeon’s knot Day shows looks more akin to a ‘reef knot’ (’square knot’), except that there are two turns of the strands on the top and bottom edges of the knot (when viewed as normally tied). At present, I am inclined to think that ’surgeon’s knot’ (for what the term is currently, popularly, understood to mean) is a relatively modern appropriation (misappropriation) of the name. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

Tony; After giving the matter some more thought I believe I can clear up how, if not when, the knot we use to tie on tippet became known as the "surgeon’s knot". In addition to climbing rock and replacing more tippet than I care to think about, I have also done some surgical procedures on rats, and a great deal of woodworking. As a result of the woodworking I have had sutures put into every one of my fingers at one time or another. Having watched the procedure so often I know that the knots surgeons use are the same as the ones I use on rats; they are in fact simple square knots.  A square knot is, or course, simply two stacked overhand knots.  Ordinarily, a square knot is tied by making an overhand knot and then following it with another, making sure that the second is opposed to the first; left over right and then right over left (repeating left over right or right over left twice will result in a granny knot, notorious for slipping).  In making sutures, the suture material is wound once or twice around the needle holder which is then used to grasp the tag end and pull it through the loop.  When the material is wound twice around the needle holder the result is still an overhand knot; the ends merely twist around each other twice rather than the usual once.  In order to finish the square knot a surgeon repeats the process being careful to wind the material in the opposite direction from the first time. When two (or possibly even more) turns are taken around the needle holder before drawing tight it is exactly the same procedure as we perform in tying on tippet material.  The only real difference is that the surgeon performs this procedure on a single strand as opposed to the two that we use in making the "surgeon’s knot."  A casual observer would easily be fooled into thinking that the fisherman and the surgeon are doing exactly the same thing.  The error is almost certainly compounded by the fact that many of us use a hemostat to help tie our knot in the stream.  Not only is the process the same, we even use the same (to the untrained eye) tool. Sound plausible?

Response:

Wolfgang, Your description of how to tie the knot during surgery is correct. The surgeon’s knot is a knot that uses a self-retaining frictional hitch for the first throw. The two wraps in the first throw create more friction between the strands so that tissue layers that want to pull apart are held in apposition while the second throw is placed. A variant on this theme is to do three wraps on the first throw if there is a lot of tension between the tissue edges. However, the subsequent wrap is then two throws instead of one so the knot will not be too assymetric (which creates problems with knot security). The surgeon’s knot is only used when there is sufficient tension to pull the edges you are trying to appose apart while you are doing the second throw, otherwise suturing is done with a square knot (there are some caveats to this generality). I suspect that the flyfishing surgeon’s knot was given that name because it visually resembles the surgeon’s knot used for suturing (even though its structure is totally different). My guess is that it was named by someone with some familiarity with it in the medical context. However, I would be surprised if it was a surgeon since it is a different knot and surgeons are somewhat picky about naming knots and suture patterns. Cheers. Jon McAnulty

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<snip In Britain, this knot is also known as the ‘water knot’ and may well be the same as the ‘water knot’ mentioned in the famous ‘Treatise of Fishing with an Angle’, which appeared in the Second Book of St Albans -attributed to Juliana Berners and printed by Wynken de Worde in 1496. Unfortunately, despite reference in the text of the Treatise to an illustration of the knot, this was in fact omitted.

<snip I’m not sure I can help you on this one Tony; in fact, I may muddy the waters a bit more.  I’ve done a bit of rock climbing over the years and used what climbers refer to as a water knot to form loops in webbing or to join two pieces of webbing together (webbing is tubular woven nylon which has been pressed flat).  The climber’s water knot starts with a simple overhand knot tied near the end of a piece of webbing.  To make a loop, the other end is pushed back through the overhand knot following (in reverse) the path of the original end. Tying two pieces of webbing together is done in exactly the same fashion.  The only difference is that one uses the ends of two pieces rather than both ends of one piece.  The effect is essentially the same as the fisherman’s ’surgeon’s knot’ except that there is only one turn as opposed to the three or four used in the surgeon’s knot.  So, at bottom, the only real difference between the two knots is the number of turns taken, unless one thinks that the method of tying is significant.  The water knot used by climbers is the same as the surgeon’s knot used by fishermen.  Of course, I don’t know whether the climber’s water knot is the same as the one you made reference to. Hope this helps. TL.

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Question:

Hello, Chat with expert author Peter Kaminsky and learn the techniques you’ll need to know to land yourself a whopper! Whether you’re a novice or a veteran angler, "Fly Fishing For Dummies" offers sage advice for choosing the right kind of gear, finding out how and where to catch freshwater and saltwater fish, practicing the art of tying flies, and more. <http://www.dummies.com/community/chat/ Chat Channel: #dummies Chat Server: chat.talkcity.com Hope to see you there! Courtesy of the IDG Books Author Chat Series

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Chat with expert author Peter Kaminsky and learn the techniques you’ll need to know to land yourself a whopper! Whether you’re a novice or a veteran angler, "Fly Fishing For Dummies" offers sage advice for choosing the right kind of gear, finding out how and where to catch freshwater and saltwater fish, practicing the art of tying flies, and more. <http://www.dummies.com/community/chat/ Chat Channel: #dummies Chat Server: chat.talkcity.com Hope to see you there! Courtesy of the IDG Books Author Chat Series

From the looks of many posts on this site, looks like you came to the right place. We make the insane ward look perfectly normal. Al Marlowe

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Question:

I’m looking for some new patterns to try on the huge mass of stripers that very reliable sources say are headed towards capecod. If any one has any interesting stuff that has a good history of working please let me know.

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I’m looking for some new patterns to try on the huge mass of stripers that very reliable sources say are headed towards capecod. If any one has any interesting stuff that has a good history of working please let me know.

I’m a big fan of the Ray’s Fly and the Bonderew Bucktail.  Killed them at Chatham the last two Junes. Bob Scott

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TR…Before I started guiding I started using my own brand of yellow clouser. First of all I tied it upside down. In other words hook up, eyes on the lower side. I started flyfishing in the salt in Rhode Island up in Narragansett Bay. Lots of rocks to grab flies. Having the hook up avoids loss to rocky bottoms. Stripers tend to hug the bottom more often than not and I found I spent more time releasing them then tying on new flies. My clousers are also tied like tarpon flies, tied in at the tail which avoids the ugly recurring problem of the material wrapping around the hook shank. My pattern uses four yellow hackle three inches long, six or eight  pieces of silver crystal flash  and a small amount of yellow fish hair. Turn it over and tie in the eyes. I use flaming pink floss to tie the fly. It allows you to really tie the materials securely without worrying about breaking the thread. Believe me it works. My clients have been using it and it out performs many other patterns I’ve tried. Good luck this season…Capt. Ted Bobetsky (http://www.flyfishing-the-salt.com) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for some new patterns to try on the huge mass of stripers that very reliable sources say are headed towards capecod. If any one has any interesting stuff that has a good history of working please let me know.

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Question:

I have wrapped 5-6 fly rods duringh the last year. On  the first rod I applied color preserver that came with the( Seymo) 2-part epoxy set for the thread wraps. The result was not good – probably because I had nott managed to apply the color preserver evenly over the entire wraps. for my next rods I did not use any color preserver – just the epoxy and the result is much nicer. The color of the thread darkens somewhat, but I know it in advance and it is no problem at all. My thory is that color preserver may have been necessary for older types of wrapping  thread with properties different from those of modern  threads, but today it is superfluous for normal wrapping. Information/opinnions welcomed! Regards jJan Erik Frithjofsen

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have wrapped 5-6 fly rods duringh the last year. On  the first rod I applied color preserver that came with the( Seymo) 2-part epoxy set for the thread wraps. The result was not good – probably because I had nott managed to apply the color preserver evenly over the entire wraps. for my next rods I did not use any color preserver – just the epoxy and the result is much nicer. The color of the thread darkens somewhat, but I know it in advance and it is no problem at all. My thory is that color preserver may have been necessary for older types of wrapping  thread with properties different from those of modern  threads, but today it is superfluous for normal wrapping. Information/opinnions welcomed! Regards jJan Erik Frithjofsen

I have found the same thing—-I don’t use it. KNACK TEXAS

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 Some threads need color preserver, if not used the color will change. Gudebrod has winding thread that is color fast.

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<snip for my next rods I did not use any color preserver – just the epoxy and the result is much nicer. The color of the thread darkens somewhat, but I know it in advance and it is no problem at all. My thory is that color preserver may have been necessary for older types of wrapping  thread with properties different from those of modern  threads, but today it is superfluous for normal wrapping.

I never worry about the colour of my whippings, some of my rods have three or four different colours on em. Most important is to make them as dull as possible, if a rod is brightly finished matt brown paint will kill the reflections nicely.  I always feel uncomfortable using a rod which flashes when I cast, the only exception being the rods I use night fishing. A side effect of the dull paint jobs is that my tackle is less attractive to thieves Tight lines, —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have wrapped 5-6 fly rods duringh the last year. On  the first rod I applied color preserver that came with the( Seymo) 2-part epoxy set for the thread wraps. The result was not good – probably because I had nott managed to apply the color preserver evenly over the entire wraps. for my next rods I did not use any color preserver – just the epoxy and the result is much nicer. The color of the thread darkens somewhat, but I know it in advance and it is no problem at all. My thory is that color preserver may have been necessary for older types of wrapping  thread with properties different from those of modern  threads, but today it is superfluous for normal wrapping. Information/opinnions welcomed! Regards jJan Erik Frithjofsen

Hi Erik, If you are wrapping a rod with red, white and blue threads and it is not NCP(no color preserver) thread you will have a noticeable change in your colors if you do not use color preserver. Most fly rods today are wrapped with shades that match the color of the blanks more closely than that of the salt water conventional rods for example. Your finish will penetrate the thread better without color preserver. Threads usually darken and appear more translucent without color preserver. I would say that Jan/Feb is the peak of the rod building season in North American.   Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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Frithjofsen) writes:  *SNIP*

My thory is that color preserver may have been necessary for older types of wrapping  thread with properties different from those of

modern  threads, but today it is superfluous for normal wrapping.

Color preserver has never been necessary to the functionality or durability of the rod. It was (and is) a cosmetic feature.  It coats the wraps without changing their color, and then when you varnish or epoxy these wraps, the varnish or epoxy never touches the wraps to change their color, but coats and bonds the color preserver to the blank.  There has been an on-going controversy over whether or not this is as durable as using varnish or epoxy without color preserver.  Without color preserver the varnish/epoxy penetrates the thread and bonds it directly to the blank.  With color preserver it coats the preserver but does not penetrate the thread. Varnish/epoxy without color preserver usually darkens the color of the wrap. At the Orvis store in SF we used to have a section of a blank wrapped with all the colors we sold and varnished with 4 coats of Gudebrod’s Glass Rod Varnish (Polyurethane based varnish) which gave the same finish as that on the Orvis premium rods.  All of the colors (Gudebrod thread) were darkened, some more than others.  Bright red became dark red, light brown turned a dark milk-chocolate in color.  2 coats of epoxy would be comparable (although much higher build) and is the industry standard.  Was handy to show people what the final color would look like.  Don’t know if it’s still around since the rod building supplies are no longer carried in the Orvis SF store and I am no longer there.   They can still be ordered, but little if any are in stock. The main reason color preservers became popular was for all the decorative wrapping done on conventional spin/baitcasting/boat rod equipment.                                    Good Fishing (and finishing),                                               Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have wrapped 5-6 fly rods duringh the last year. On  the first rod I applied color preserver that came with the( Seymo) 2-part epoxy set for the thread wraps. The result was not good – probably because I had nott managed to apply the color preserver evenly over the entire wraps. for my next rods I did not use any color preserver – just the epoxy and the result is much nicer. The color of the thread darkens somewhat, but I know it in advance and it is no problem at all. My thory is that color preserver may have been necessary for older types of wrapping  thread with properties different from those of modern  threads, but today it is superfluous for normal wrapping. Information/opinnions welcomed! Regards jJan Erik Frithjofsen

I continue to use color preserver for 2 reasons.  First,  I want predictability in the finished colors of my wraps. Second, I have had occasion to wear out and need to replace guides.  If you allow the epoxy to soak through the un-preserved threads, it is a holy bitch to get the blank cleaned up to replace the wrap.  Threads that have been treated with color preserver come right off and you can clean up the wrap area with a single edged razor blade pretty easily.   — Andrew Brunette

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Question:

One approach, although rather unconventional, would be to turn down all the cork handles on all your rods. Then take a meat cleaver and cut off your fingers at the first digit.  This should make the turn-downed handles work fine. Of course, you’ll have to re-learn the art of tying the fly to tippet. For a professional job, I think you’re going to have to remove the guides. Unless you don’t mind wrapping the handle with the fisherman’s friend, masking tape. Good luck.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When my daughter was rather small, I turned down the handle of a rod to fit her hand. I assumed that I would sell the rod or pass it on to another small child when she outgrew it. She’s bigger now, and before I give the rod up, I would like to find out whether anyone has successfully added material to a cork handle. I don’t want to get into removing all the guides, which is the only way I know to get new cork onto a rod. Any ideas? Thanks, Allen

Allen, You could remove the remaining cork and the wraps for the winding check. Move the winding check up the shaft (out of the way). Then add new corks rings that have been cut in half. Don’t align all the cuts in-a-line from ring to ring. Turn to the rough final shape and patch the cut marks. If done correctly – the cuts will looksomewhat  like the normal filled-in marks on a cork grip. Then sand to the final shape. Move the winding check back and rewrap. Don Burns Wishful collector of Gillums and Dickersons – Owner of Montague, H-I and Heddons

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  Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly   One approach, although rather unconventional, would be to turn down all   the cork handles on all your rods. Then take a meat cleaver and cut off   your fingers at the first digit.  This should make the turn-downed handles   work fine. Of course, you’ll have to re-learn the art of tying the fly to   tippet.

You _CLEARLY_ win the "tip of the month" for this one.  I’m still laughing. Can’t think of an appropriate prize… maybe a knife sharpener. 3 Cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

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When my daughter was rather small, I turned down the handle of a rod to fit her hand. I assumed that I would sell the rod or pass it on to another small child when she outgrew it. She’s bigger now, and before I give the rod up, I would like to find out whether anyone has successfully added material to a cork handle. I don’t want to get into removing all the guides, which is the only way I know to get new cork onto a rod. Any ideas? Thanks, Allen

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When my daughter was rather small, I turned down the handle of a rod to fit her hand. I assumed that I would sell the rod or pass it on to another small child when she outgrew it. She’s bigger now, and before I give the rod up, I would like to find out whether anyone has successfully added material to a cork handle. I don’t want to get into removing all the guides, which is the only way I know to get new cork onto a rod.

Possibly mountain bike handlebar wrap or noeprene strips.  not classy but potentially light and very comfortable. See next weeks SPAM: "NeoGrip !! Revolutionary Grip Material" — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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When my daughter was rather small, I turned down the handle of a rod to fit her hand. I assumed that I would sell the rod or pass it on to another small child when she outgrew it. She’s bigger now, and before I give the rod up, I would like to find out whether anyone has successfully added material to a cork handle. I don’t want to get into removing all the guides, which is the only way I know to get new cork onto a rod. Any ideas? Thanks, Allen

This may be a silly idea, and may not work at all, but then again, , If you have a decent bicycle shop in town, stop on by and check out their selection of handlebar tape. There is at least one decent quality natural cork tape out there, and a wrap of that might just do the trick. Worth lookin into anyway. luv chipper

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Question:

There seems to be some debate as to whether an Orvis rod warranty can be transferred with the sale of a rod.  Does it only apply to the original owner?  This would seem foolish as Orvis shouldn’t really care.  A warranty such as their one of 25 years is an implication of faith in their products, not the purchasers.  I am looking at buying a used rod and would greatly appreciate any feedback (perhaps from Orvis or a dealer?).   Thank you. Paul Tickner

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Orvis: built to last, not to cast. Just kidding guys.. Frankie

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I recently sold an Orvis rod, and carefully read the warranty card.  It indicated that the 25yr warranty was only good for the original owner. Hope this helps Rich There seems to be some debate as to whether an Orvis rod warranty can be transferred with the sale of a rod.  Does it only apply to the original owner?  This would seem foolish as Orvis shouldn’t really care.  A warranty such as their one of 25 years is an implication of faith in their products, not the purchasers.  I am looking at buying a used rod and would greatly appreciate any feedback (perhaps from Orvis or a dealer?).   Thank you. Paul Tickner

– Rich Miyara 74 Anderson Hill Enfield NH  03748 Phone:  (603) 650-7827 wk Home:   (603) 632-4090 hm (bef. 9PM ET)

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Sage is the same (i.e. warranty good for original owner only).

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I’ve broken my Orvis Rocky Mtn. 4pc 4 wt. 3 times in 3 different sections in the last year and a half, got them all repaired or more like replaced, didn’t spend a dime, well $5 for shipping. I’m sold on the 25 yr. warranty, as to whether it’s built to last or to cast…. it’s up to you, but it’s sure nice to have a rod that you can treated like a real fishing equipment rather than a piece of heirloom that you might damage on the stream, which i think sure takes the fun out of fishing…….

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Sorry- Orvis rod guarantees only apply to orginal owners of the rod. I know because I just bought a new orvis and thats what ist said on the warranty. I bet that you could just get the person who sold you the rod to trade it in forr you though- or just have them brake it before they sell it to you so you can start out with a new rod. I would not assume that orvis would like this- but it is a no questions asked guarante. tight lines! -matt

: There seems to be some debate as to whether an Orvis rod warranty can be : transferred with the sale of a rod.  Does it only apply to the original : owner?  This would seem foolish as Orvis shouldn’t really care.  A : warranty such as their one of 25 years is an implication of faith in their : products, not the purchasers.  I am looking at buying a used rod and would : greatly appreciate any feedback (perhaps from Orvis or a dealer?).   : Thank you. : Paul Tickner

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I’ve broken my Orvis Rocky Mtn. 4pc 4 wt. 3 times in 3 different sections in the last year and a half, [snip] it’s sure nice to have a rod that you can treated like a real fishing equipment rather than a piece of heirloom that you might damage on the stream, which i think sure takes the fun out of fishing…….

Then again, one should treat a nice graphite rod as something other than a walking stick!!  A nice graphite rod is a delicate and wonderful tool, and deserves better than to be whipped mercilessly upon the water and beat against every stream bank and overhanging tree limb in sight!!! ___ Bob Scott  WY7O | Roses are red, Violets are blue

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Then again, one should treat a nice graphite rod as something other than a walking stick!!  A nice graphite rod is a delicate and wonderful tool, and deserves better than to be whipped mercilessly upon the water and beat against every stream bank and overhanging tree limb in sight!!!

Unless it is an Orvis! Frankie

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I’ve broken my Orvis Rocky Mtn. 4pc 4 wt. 3 times in 3 different sections in the last year and a half, got them all repaired or more like replaced, didn’t spend a dime, well $5 for shipping. I’m sold on the 25 yr. warranty, as to whether it’s built to last or to cast…. it’s up to you, but it’s sure nice to have a rod that you can treated like a real fishing equipment rather than a piece of heirloom that you might damage on the stream, which i think sure takes the fun out of fishing…….

St Croix, (I can hear some of you moaning already) has the same guarantee. I just broke a Premier Graphite 8′ 4-wt.  Called St Croix, explained what had happened (involves my wife, my fly-rod and the basement door), they said to mail it to them with a check for $5.00 shipping and handling and they would replace it.  Came three days ago…brand new…pretty as can be. Now if only the rivers would thaw….      I’m sorry but my karma is broken, anyone know a good mechanic?

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I bought an Orvis d"demo" rod from a dealer, and proceeded to splinter the tip of the rod as well as rot out the reel seat. I was never asked by Orvis to provide proof of original ownership, and had the rod replaced immediately. In fact, Orvis did not have any similar rods in stock, and allowed me to purchase a replacement rod myself, which I was credited for upon them receiving the original damage goods.

: Sorry- Orvis rod guarantees only apply to orginal owners of the rod. I : know because I just bought a new orvis and thats what ist said on the : warranty. I bet that you could just get the person who sold you the rod : to trade it in forr you though- or just have them brake it before they : sell it to you so you can start out with a new rod. I would not assume : that orvis would like this- but it is a no questions asked guarante. : tight lines! : -matt

: : There seems to be some debate as to whether an Orvis rod warranty can be : : transferred with the sale of a rod.  Does it only apply to the original : : owner?  This would seem foolish as Orvis shouldn’t really care.  A : : warranty such as their one of 25 years is an implication of faith in their : : products, not the purchasers.  I am looking at buying a used rod and would : : greatly appreciate any feedback (perhaps from Orvis or a dealer?).   : : Thank you. : : Paul Tickner

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Amen.  I just recently picked up the habit, and dove right in with a Rocky Mountain 6 wt, 4 piece.  I’m relieved to hear that they back it up the way they claim. Also, I agree that fishing is more enjoyable without breaks to clear ice from the guides. If have any recommended streams in the southeast, drop a line.  I spend a lot of time in NC and the mountains of VA. Evan

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