Question:

"John Kowalski" and others have asked me for the Steelhead Clouser Fly Pattern I used to fish on this trip.  I sent him a slightly different pattern than I actually used.  Here is the pattern as used, your mileage may vary: Steelhead Clouser Flat Wing Tube Fly. Tube: 1/2 of a plastic hollow Q-tip with the swabs removed (One end will be rough to hold the swab — use this end for the hook keeper/holder) Hook Holder: Light Blue small hobby gas engine fuel line (like for RC airplanes)- I used permanent markers to cover the light blue to match the body Thread: Black Body: Ultra-Chenille purple, pink or chartreuse wrapped with silver wire Eyes: Painted Dumbbell Eyes (Red) Wing: Black Bucktail (or Black Fishhair/Ultrahair) wrap this back a 1/2" from the dumbbell eyes for a flatter wing appearance Bottom Wing: White Bucktail (or White Fishhair/Ultrahair) mixed with a few Purple Flashabou or Krystal Flash or your favorite matching body color Hook: Your favorite steelhead hook including small shank hooks and circle hooks Chris "Padishar Creel" Fanning

Response:

I just got home and wanted to share my fishing experiences.  I have been Steelhead fishing the last two days at a river I cannot reveal, since a friend was my guide and asked me not to share the location, but he did not say I couldn’t share the experience… I hooked 30+ Steelhead and landed 22 over the past two days.  I have NEVER had such success in my entire life!  I caught every single fish on the Steelhead Clouser Tube Fly in black, white and purple…However, I admit any good pattern would have seemed to worked…my buddy used the Purple Peril and a couple of his own designs, although I out fished him 2 to 1 (advantage to the Spey Rod — I was able to cover considerably more water than he could with is 8wt single-hander)…The recent rains in the Pacific NW is moving fish and it looks like a banner year… Padishar Creel…Only hit myself in the head with a fly 4 times in the last 2 days…a record…:)

Response:

Wow, that sounds great.  Let me know if you need a drift boat trip for the exchange of that spot. Hillsboro, OR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got home and wanted to share my fishing experiences.  I have been Steelhead fishing the last two days at a river I cannot reveal, since a friend was my guide and asked me not to share the location, but he did not say I couldn’t share the experience… I hooked 30+ Steelhead and landed 22 over the past two days.  I have NEVER had such success in my entire life!  I caught every single fish on the Steelhead Clouser Tube Fly in black, white and purple…However, I admit any good pattern would have seemed to worked…my buddy used the Purple Peril and a couple of his own designs, although I out fished him 2 to 1 (advantage to the Spey Rod — I was able to cover considerably more water than he could with is 8wt single-hander)…The recent rains in the Pacific NW is moving fish and it looks like a banner year… Padishar Creel…Only hit myself in the head with a fly 4 times in the last 2 days…a record…:)

Response:

An outstanding trip Chris. I’d sure like to find some of that action.  Had one day like that last year, you can never forget it. Chas

..  Great TR clipped …

Response:

"Randy Kane" attempted to tempt me with a nice drift boat trip for the secret to the spot. Randy, I would love to accept your generous and tempting offer and I always enjoy fishin’ with new fly fisherman, however, even though my ethics can be strained, I am hopeful to be invited again on combination trip of upland game bird hunting and fly fishing with the friend who just made my trip of a lifetime. Sorry, Padishar Creel

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just got home and wanted to share my fishing experiences.  I have been Steelhead fishing the last two days at a river I cannot reveal, since a friend was my guide and asked me not to share the location, but he did not say I couldn’t share the experience… I hooked 30+ Steelhead and landed 22 over the past two days.  I have NEVER had such success in my entire life!  I caught every single fish on the Steelhead Clouser Tube Fly in black, white and purple…However, I admit any good pattern would have seemed to worked…my buddy used the Purple Peril and a couple of his own designs, although I out fished him 2 to 1 (advantage to the Spey Rod — I was able to cover considerably more water than he could with is 8wt single-hander)…The recent rains in the Pacific NW is moving fish and it looks like a banner year… Padishar Creel…Only hit myself in the head with a fly 4 times in the last 2 days…a record…:)

Only four times – try harder, OK? and about the trip – Spey rods rule!!! hope you’re not getting whacked by the crappy weather out your way Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Peter, Could you share the pattern for your Clouser Tube Fly pattern with me?  I tried to e=mail yo through the link on the web page you list and it came

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just got home and wanted to share my fishing experiences.  I have been Steelhead fishing the last two days at a river I cannot reveal, since a friend was my guide and asked me not to share the location, but he did not say I couldn’t share the experience… I hooked 30+ Steelhead and landed 22 over the past two days.  I have NEVER had such success in my entire life!  I caught every single fish on the Steelhead Clouser Tube Fly in black, white and purple…However, I admit any good pattern would have seemed to worked…my buddy used the Purple Peril and a couple of his own designs, although I out fished him 2 to 1 (advantage to the Spey Rod — I was able to cover considerably more water than he could with is 8wt single-hander)…The recent rains in the Pacific NW is moving fish and it looks like a banner year… Padishar Creel…Only hit myself in the head with a fly 4 times in the last 2 days…a record…:) Only four times – try harder, OK? and about the trip – Spey rods rule!!! hope you’re not getting whacked by the crappy weather out your way Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Peter, Could you share the pattern for your Clouser Tube Fly pattern with me?  I tried to e=mail yo through the link on the web page you list and it came

That pattern belongs to Chris, perhaps he can put it up for you. Tested the mail function on my page – seems to be OK. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I’m sorry but I don’t know Chris.  Do you have his email? thanks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter, Could you share the pattern for your Clouser Tube Fly pattern with me?  I tried to e=mail yo through the link on the web page you list and it came That pattern belongs to Chris, perhaps he can put it up for you. Tested the mail function on my page – seems to be OK. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

I’m sorry but I don’t know Chris.  Do you have his email? thanks

You must have missed the lead post in this thread as Chris got it started – it was his trip and his fly.  I picked his email off of that HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

Yes, I found it immediately after the last post. Thanks, JFK

I’m sorry but I don’t know Chris.  Do you have his email? thanks You must have missed the lead post in this thread as Chris got it started – it was his trip and his fly.  I picked his email off of that HTH Peter Visit The Streamer Page at

http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Question:

The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line?

What Willi said. Works for me. George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age."                                                           —- J.W Muller

Response:

Chances are your guides are worn out.  You probably have "flats" worn on the inside diameter of your snake guides.  Use a magnifying glass to see if you have worn out the inside of the guides as when you have flats you end up with very SHARP edges, which shave your fly line when you shoot the line. This shaves your fly line and in effect, destroys it.  Look also at the Tip-Top guide as this is the one which your fly line creases over 90* and does a lot of damage.  I suspect your fly rod needs reguiding. A quality line dressing will help and if you wish, you can visit the blue thingie enclosed in the sign off. Good Luck Tim, but I bet you’re going to need a new fly line also.  Hope not, but what you describe doesn’t sound very cool. Mr.G. http://www.gink.com/GG-Products-StreamSide-PZ-LineCleaner.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? — TL, Tim

Response:

162575.news.dfncis.de: The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides? riverman

If I’ve had a good day, I’ll buy em a beer — Scott Reverse first field of address to reply

Response:

       The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let    line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly    line? How often do you clean and treat the line?             and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides?         riverman         How often you clean a fly line has alot to do with where you fish. Some waters, although they might look crystalline, tend to get a line dirty in short order. The composition of the banks also plays a part. If my line starts sinking when fishing, I generally just pull it through a piece of chammy. For a good cleaning, I first wash the line in warm water then use a line cleaner. I’ve used a number of different brands and have no preference. I occasionally give my rods a coat of car wax and in the process, the guides do get a coat of wax. It does seem to help shooting line but only for a very short time. It does help protect the rod and helps shed water. Willi

Response:

The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides? riverman

I generally clean and condition my line after ~20 hours of use.  I use mild soap for the cleaning, and a conditioner produced by Scientific Angler.  As for the guides, I coat them with a thin film (just enought to leave a fingerprint when touched) of Super Lube (a silicon based gel lubricant with teflon) once a month.  AFter applying the Super Lube I wipe any excess off the exterior of the guide loop (since this is only needed on the inside of the guide) in order to keep the inside of my rod tube clean. Using the above methods, I’ve noticed increased shooting distances, improved line floatation, and greatly extended line life.

Response:

The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line? — TL, Tim

Response:

The last time I fished, I noticed an slight abrasive-type sound as I let line through the guides during a cast. What’s the best treatment for fly line? How often do you clean and treat the line?

and add to that, does anyone ever treat the <guides? riverman

Response:

Question:

I believe their was a case a couple of years ago concerning an Angel Flight. One of their aircraft had broken down while on a mission in a remote area. One of the other Angel Flight volunteer pilots flew a mechanic in his own aircraft to repair the downed aircraft. The FAA gave this pilot a violation for flying a "commercial" flight without the proper ratings. Their reasoning was since the Mechanic was being paid to repair the other aircraft that made it a commercial flight operation by definition and that it did not fall under the Angel Flight exclusion even though the pilot received no compensation and donated his time and aircraft expenses. Apparently a charter service at their home field had complained to the FAA because they felt they should have flown and been paid for the repair flight. This situation is similar and would probably end the same way. If the FAA doesn’t have it brought to their attention, they most likely won’t come looking and won’t really care. But, if someone like an airport manager, FBO, or charter service complains that their losing revenue, then the results will usually be in favor of the commercial operation and against the individual. Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

What is the compensation that he or anyone else is getting? Who hired him? I still don’t understand the problem. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I still don’t understand what is particularly grey about this. What compensation is he or anyone else getting? And what does "commonality of purpose" have to do with it? Doesn’t the FAA have the burden of proof that a violation occurred? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could

find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire.<< It’s not a reg. As in many cases where the FAA takes administrative action the office of the Chief Councel makes a determination of what a reg means and what to do to a pilot. Especially in a grey area. This entire thread comes through here about every year. Searching the Google newsgroup archives has most of it. I have the case law copied somewhere. I just went through a bunch of old data, couldn’t find it but sure did clean out my desk. KG

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks.

Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

Anyone really care?  You are doing your friend a favor and if you feel like it is worth it, ask him to chip in by paying the landing fee. The Feds aren’t going to be there looking over your should just waiting to catch you allowing someone else to pay your landing fee. You know most won’t even care. If you were recieving compensation for doing this that would be one thing but you’re not. Even then they would have to catch you. Let him pay the landing fee. If the Feds want to take away your license for something they will, period. There won’t be any stopping them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

My 250 and your 350 have the same frame, of course the engines are the same also.  You just have more lug nuts to take off when you get a flat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. Pussy.  F-350 Triton V-10 pulling a 33ft double slide fifth wheel. Going from San Antonio to Oshkosh this July… Russell Kent

Response:

I think a reading from the FAR’s might clarify my earlier statement. Sec. 61.113   Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command. (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft. (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if: (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire. The (b)(1) is what I referred to, it’s not clear that if you do it for free it’s ok or not.  I know that I have had FSDO people tell me it’s not ok, but then I know they don’t always get it right either.  They told me that the flight time you accumulate while doing this counts as payment, who knows, I certainly don’t! A normal procedure when dealing with regulations is that if it’s not stated as being unlawful then that means it’s lawful.  However, with the FAA you never can tell, they can make their own rules and interpretations up on the fly, so I’d always play safe and not do it. However, it’s your certificate and if you have a beef with the fee’s, then don’t pay them and let the FBO do what they want.  You could always clear it with your local FSDO and see what they say, and as for Angel Flights and commercial license.  It’s like CAP from what I understand, there are wavers in place for this type of operation. Let us know what the FSDO says, and then if the FBO isn’t charging others I’d tell him to go screw himself, assuming FSDO says a private is all you need. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend.

What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods. — Legal Warning: Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to me – consider this an official notice.

Response:

I agree with Jim….as I usually do, being a fellow Piper owner…anyway… I find this type of thread always amusing…you can’t do that because it is for ‘hire’ or in this case ‘no commonality of purpose’. With all due respect to Mr. Gruber and everyone else who feels that way…to quote my friend down south…BULLSQUAT! ALL my flights are for ME.  I fly for fun, not profit, I love to go different places.  So, your honor, when Mr. X asked me if I would take him to BFE, I said, sure, having never been there, I looked forward to going and checking it out.  I then decided with or without him, I was gonna explore BFE, and started to make my flight plans.  Just so happens since he was still wanting to go to BFE, and I was wanting to go someplace new, we both had a common purpose for the flight..we BOTH wanted to go to BFE equally….thus, I did not fly him to BFE, he came with me on yet another $100 hamburger run to someplace I had not yet been….BFE…and that your honor is my story….   Its true!  Bottom Line…..have fun and fly safe!!! Garrett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights. Bullsquat. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved. Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

Response:

Frank, you are going to be beaten bloody by gnats, on this topic… First, you are in a somewhat grey area of the regs… You say you are donating your time and gas and I accept that… Others, who are hostile to you or your friend for whatever reason, will say you are performing a commercial flight operation, air taxi, without the ratings, etc… My position is, that as long as you are not being paid in any fashion other than your own satisfaction, it is your airplane to fly wherever and whenever, ala. Angel Flights, etc… <still a free country… If you choose to arrange your schedule with your friend so he can accomplish his own purposes, that is between you two and it is still a Part 91 flight… I have a friend that I routinely fly with… My plans usually are contingent upon his needs, when we leave, when we come back, etc..  The Professional Hand Wringers (PHW) are all over this board, and the minutae artists among them would try to make the case that if I wait even five minutes for him, it is now magically an air taxi operation and I’m in violation, yadda, yadda, yadda, all over the place… Now the PHW will be all over you, so you, like Caesars wife, have to be above reproach that what you are doing is your own personal satisfaction, that you are not using the trips to  build hours towards a commercial rating, that the friend is not sending you and the wife on a missionary trip to Guatemala <or where ever, etc…  nada, nothing, sparkling clean… Also, the friend better not be hiring an air taxi when you are not available… That would be tough to explain away if the FAA got into it… The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not… The analogy here, is an employee of a corporation may fly the corporate plane on company business, without his being a commercial pilot… That does not protect him/them from paying the commercial operations fee when that plane, with the corporate logo all over it, lands and taxi’s in to the fbo… From  my perspective, have the friend pay the fee, since it is his activity that is commercial, not yours, or make an arrangement that you will buy the 20 gallons of gas on some fixed schedule, or otherwise get an agreement with her… <I’m actually against anything other than his paying the fee, because money appearing out of your hand in any fashion makes YOU look like a commercial operation Or find another airport and keep your mouth(s) shut <probably the best solution… I would advise against making a major fight out of it with the airport manager… She has the ultimate weapon of filing a complaint with the FAA that you are running a clandestine air taxi… Not good – not fun – lotsa grief…. Cheers  …  Denny

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

Response:

Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

I think you are stretching the interpretation a bit.  If a friend suggests that the fishing is good in MT, and we fly there in my plane, it is not a commercial flight.  To be a commercial flight the person/entity providing the flight must receive something in return. I would agree with your interpretation if they were splitting costs. Mike MU-2   Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. What I would ask is this, are you going to this site anyways, in other words, if he wasn’t along for the ride, would you still go? If not, what you’re doing requires a commercial.  That’s why you are getting the landing fee charge.  It’s common around here for a landing fee only on commercial ops, private is usually free in my neck of the woods.

Bullsquat. If one could not fly someone for free when there was no commonality of purpose, Angel Flight could not exist. As long as he does not receive any compensation, he should be OK. Given the nature of the radio station (Christian non-profit), Frank may be entitled to deduct his out of pocket costs (or even perhaps the wet local rate for a C150) from his taxes. The ‘landing charge’ seems more like an FBO ramp fee to me. -Greg

Response:

 It figures a guy with a cherokee 180 would get an F150.  Those are girls toys. When you step up to a Skylane you can get the F250 with the V10, I’ll never go back to the small trucks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jim,    I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on!

Response:

I believe that Rick Cremer once said there is no such thing, no such ruling, no record of action against a pilot for such a thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

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Jim,     I kinda wondered about you until I saw your signature line… even though I knew you flew a Cherokee. You proved yourself with the Ford F-150 rating though.  Carry on! — Joe Schneider Cherokee 8437R Advanced F-150 Supercab rating Numerous other spamcans not worth mentioning     Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.     Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with     it to me.<<     That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.     Snip Karl’s nonsense…     Karl     ATP     LR-Jet     CE-500     BE-300     15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot     Ooooh!     —     Jim Fisher     Cherokee 140     Warrior II     Cherokee 180     Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)     Ford F-150

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The toughest part is the airport… Obviously, it is common knowledge that you are flying him in the performance of HIS work… From the airports point of view that constitutes a commercial activity originating at the airport, whether you get paid or not…

That may or may not be the case here. Frank did not say that they are charging the landing fee because it’s a commercial operation. Sounds to me like they have decided to charge fees for everybody. The only place "commercial" came into it was the proposal to have his friend pay the landing fee. And that is where it gets sticky. If he does so, he’s contributing to the cost of the flight and the "commonality of purpose" becomes an issue (as others have said). George Patterson,  N3162Q.

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Could you cite the reg requiring "commonality of purpose?" All I could find was that a private pilot could not receive compensation for hire, nor can he act as PIC for an aircraft flown for compensation for hire. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can’t fly that type of flight without  commercial and135 certificates. It doesn’t matter if he pays you or not. There is no "commonality of purpose" for these flights.

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  Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.   Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with   it to me.<<   That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not.   So another pilot and I are planning to fly to Mooselips, Nevada for a little fun.  He’s interested in brunettes.  I have a big thing (okay, maybe an average thing . . . okay, maybe . . . never mind) for blondes.     There’s no "commonality of purpose" since blondes and red heads are obviously from different planets.  So I have to foot the entire bill, right?   Okay, you have to go to a Troll convention in Californy.  I need to go there for a He-Man High Wing Hater convention.  I’m not sure that I’d wanna fly with you anyway but if we could, we couldn’t, right?   Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight.   So, can I kinda hint around at the idea until my friend gets the message about going?  Does this need to be in writing?  Will a handshake count as a "ruling" or do we have to slice our palms and share blood?   Incidentally, the word "commonality" is not mentioned in the FAR’s anywhere.  Yeah, I was suckered enough to look it up and am pretty sure I pselled it right.   Karl   ATP   LR-Jet   CE-500   BE-300   15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot   Ooooh!   —   Jim Fisher   Cherokee 140   Warrior II   Cherokee 180   Cessna 172 Once (Under Duress)   Ford F-150

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That doesn’t agree with what I learned. Where in part 91 does it say that? Hunh?!  He’s flying a friend somewhere.  There’s no payment involved.

Why the need for commercial and 135?  Seems to have nothing to do with it to me.<< That’s right. He can’t do it. Unless the pilot is also along to fix the transmitters. He cannot just fly the other guy around for his convenience. Paid or not. Passengers on a Pt. 91 flight must meet a "commonality ruling."  The passenger may also NOT initiate the idea for the flight. Karl ATP LR-Jet CE-500 BE-300 15 yr Pt 135 Chief Pilot

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I have a question for you all that was just brought to my attention yesterday. Here is the scenario. I have a friend that is the engineer for a local non profit Christian radio station. The station has several transmitters and repeaters located through Virginia and North Carolina. About once a month I have been flying him to different locations around the state to service and check transmitters. I volunteer my time, airplane and fuel so there is no charge to the station or my friend. Yesterday the local airport that I fly into to pick him up and drop him off, informed us when I went to pick him up that I would have to start paying a $10.00 landing fee when I pick him up and when we return. Or purchase a minimum or 20 gallons of fuel each time I land. Well the fuel is not possible since I am flying a Cessna 150, lest I chance not having much fuel when I arrive and it just does not burn that much during these trips anyway. Are there any rules that truly spell out when a landing fee is appropriate. The airport manager said my friend should pay the fees and not me, but seems like that would not be legal as it would imply that I am a commercial pilot which I am not. I tried to explain all of this to the manager, but she would not change her mind. Thanks, Frank

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Question:

Do you think atheists are more likely than Judeo-Christians to abuse their elderly parents (on account of the fact that they don’t believe in God and therefore are not held to that ridiculous "honor thy father and mother" edict)?

No, I don’t. But I do think that different cultures often develop very different attitudes about animals and about how they should be treated. That’s pretty hard to deny. Cows are sacred in India. Pigs are "unclean" in Moslem and Jewish culture. Dogs are food items in Vietnam. Horses are food items in France. Japanese fishermen deliberately kill large numbers of dolphins. It goes on and on. These practices and attitudes may be consistent and uncontroversial within a culture. Problems arise, however, when different cultures interact. I think that’s what’s happening with the Amish puppy mills. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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TWIMC 1. Horse trading with Amish? Want to lose your shirt? . . . only a fool. . . . Thats just a fact and if anyone on this NG would like to test it with their own money, I will personally offer to make comforting cooing sounds when you return without your money and with 3 to 6 new assholes. 2. Yeah, they do have a different attitude toward animals: They are single minded farmers surviving with a minimum of technology in a corporate farming world. They have to pay their taxes like everyone else, and the have lots of kids to help get established. Land costs money. They do what they have to to survive and Im not going to pick at their sores. Earth to ROFF! Earth to ROFF! 3. Associating Amish run puppy mills with Amish people is a stretch? . . . is bigoted? What a crock. Maybe its a stretch if you don’t get around much. Steve is right. Try this one on: Is mentioning the leading involvement of young renegade Amish in several high profile Pennsylvania drug busts . . . bigoted? Or is it just that shit happens? See, young Amish men raise hell. Surprise. Sheesh! 4. What is so hard about understanding that the difference between bigotry and cultural objectivity has a broad band of gray running down the middle. Its not your simple-minded binary geek-friendly, male preferred "either or" call. Scheesh, fucken word weenies! 5. Just as an FYI item: There are some unflattering terms that Amish use for non-Amish. One is "English." What are some or the others? Dave Ideology sucks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California. There’s Amish folk in California?  :-) Joe F.

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rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California. Ernie "rw" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets. That’s just fine with me. I have no problem with that at all. However, it seems to be having the perverse effect that the Amish have become major players in the puppy mill business, which supplies animals to pet shops. They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. The Amish certainly aren’t the only people in the puppy mill business, but they are major players. I realize that people who don’t care about dogs probably don’t give a shit, but it’s a sore point with me. It’s a very cruel business.

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In standard ROFF form, I’m now being portrayed as "anti-Amish".

Not so fast my evil name-twin Nobody said you’re anti-Amish, did they? Your statements simply appear to present a somewhat stereotypical view of Amish beliefs, IMO. I’m not, of course. I’m anti-puppy-mill. It just happens that for historical and cultural reasons some Amish are very involved in the puppy mill business. That’s an easily verified fact.

It’s easily verified that there are Amish families involved in the puppy mill business. It’s NOT easily verified that they’re in that business because they’re Amish. There’s a HUGE difference between "some Amish people abuse animals" and "some people abuse animals because they’re Amish." It sounds as though you were somehow implying the latter. Do you think atheists are more likely than Judeo-Christians to abuse their elderly parents (on account of the fact that they don’t believe in God and therefore are not held to that ridiculous "honor thy father and mother" edict)? –Steve

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Ken Fortenberry writes: … (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. … Stop your whining, Barnard. — Ken Fortenberry- can actually spell anti-Semite

<<<splork

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rw, I would like to see some proof that the Amish mis-treat their animals, do you have any?  Raising puppies for sale doesn’t make them bad guys.  If you want to point your finger at someone I suggest you look into the racing dog business and some of the filthy puppy mills we have in California.

There’s Amish folk in California?  :-) Joe F.

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Give him hell if you want, Bob, but beware, you may end up with a picture of Snoop Doggy Dog under your name on the ROFF Faces page.

  Oh, god, I’ve gone too far.  Anything but that!  I know I should have kept my opinions to myself.  Oh, crap.   It was really out of character for me to respond in such a manner and, normally, I wouldn’t.  But it did strike me that some stereotyping is acceptable and some isn’t.  I would never support a puppy mill business no matter who runs it.  If the Amish do indeed participate in the puppy mill business, I’m certainly not in favor of it.  I’ll bet this and many other topics will be discussed around the "campfire" on the SJ.  I’m going to be really, really nice to everyone so as to avoid any "mislabeling". Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Prehaps because they win a lot of races! Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price? An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R.

  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops?  This isn’t my job but since none of the regular PC cops stepped forward:   If someone on this group were to say, "blacks are lazy welfare bums, Mexicans are lazy, Jews are money hungry, Pollocks are dumb, southerners are in-bred hillbillies, asians are shifty, all male flight attendants are flamingly gay, Indians are drunken bums, eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks," the roff PC police would have jumped on them in a flash.  But —- I guess this is different. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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As for "puppy mills", ain’t never heard of one being run by the amish. They must be a lower order of amish located in Pennsylvania. (ducking here)

Go into google and search on "amish puppy mills". It’s appalling. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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<context snipped  Pollocks are dumb, <more snippage eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks,"

You got at least one of these right.  Pollocks (those inferior north atlantic cousins of the haddock that they try to sell as "schrod" when the cod are not biting…) are dumb as hell. –Stan (Polack first class)

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  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops?  This isn’t my job but since none of the regular PC cops stepped forward:   If someone on this group were to say, "blacks are lazy welfare bums, Mexicans are lazy, Jews are money hungry, Pollocks are dumb, southerners are in-bred hillbillies, asians are shifty, all male flight attendants are flamingly gay, Indians are drunken bums, eastern fly fishers are sissy boys or westerners are room temperature IQ rednecks," the roff PC police would have jumped on them in a flash.  But —- I guess this is different.

It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets. That’s just fine with me. I have no problem with that at all. However, it seems to be having the perverse effect that the Amish have become major players in the puppy mill business, which supplies animals to pet shops. They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. The Amish certainly aren’t the only people in the puppy mill business, but they are major players. I realize that people who don’t care about dogs probably don’t give a shit, but it’s a sore point with me. It’s a very cruel business. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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  Holy stereotype, Batman!  Where the hell are all the PC cops? … But —- I guess this is different.

Exactly. Some here ARE different and have proven themselves to be so thoroughly insufferable and egotistical that it’s not productive to waste any energy admonishing them about their ugly prejudices. Give him hell if you want, Bob, but beware, you may end up with a picture of Snoop Doggy Dog under your name on the ROFF Faces page. — Ken Fortenberry- "Porky Forty"

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It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets… [snip] They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets.

RW, I found your puppy mills post to be enlightening. I learned something from you and I appreciate that. I’m much less inclined to purchase from a pet store should my kids ever talk me into having a pet. But, despite your explanation, I’m a bit uncomfortable with your Amish stereotype. As an example (and *only* as an illustrative example), try this on… "The Black culture teaches Black men that it’s OK to father children out of wedlock. Women are to be used for utilitarian purposes only and not to be kept as wives. They look at women as merely commodities, just another crop, even though children are born as a result." Sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it? If I were to suggest such a thing on this forum I would be ostracized and rightfully so. I’m not suggesting that you be ostracized, but rather that it’s not *because* they’re Amish that they’re doing something so despicable. –Steve

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: It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion : teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and : not kept as pets. Hmm, for starters I don’t believe that, and even if the general gist is true, the two are not mutually exclusive. The Amish are people, just like us, and I cannot believe that many of them don’t get attached to their animals, especially since they interact with, and even depend on, them more than we do. FWIW, I’d much rather see an animal get used than stand in a pen every day or sit in a cramped dog run. I’ll bet you won’t see an Amish horse develop the "bad" habits that indicate psychological imbalance (i.e., pacing, cribbing, pawing, and other repetetive acts). The fact is, there is *way* more abuse by us "recreational" pet owners. : They look at the animals as merely : commodities, as just another "crop", This is simple stereotyping. Yes, I’ve no doubt that there are "bad apples" in the Amish communities, just as there are in ours. People are people. But "they" aren’t any worse than us, and in many ways they might even be better… JonCook. — Are you a r.o.f.f. newbie? Then see http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~jcook/ROFF/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is different. The reason it’s different is that the Amish religion teaches that animals are to be used for utilitarian purposes only, and not kept as pets… [snip] They look at the animals as merely commodities, as just another "crop", even though the final customers buy them as pets. RW, I found your puppy mills post to be enlightening. I learned something from you and I appreciate that. I’m much less inclined to purchase from a pet store should my kids ever talk me into having a pet. But, despite your explanation, I’m a bit uncomfortable with your Amish stereotype. As an example (and *only* as an illustrative example), try this on… "The Black culture teaches Black men that it’s OK to father children out of wedlock. Women are to be used for utilitarian purposes only and not to be kept as wives. They look at women as merely commodities, just another crop, even though children are born as a result." Sounds pretty bad, doesn’t it? If I were to suggest such a thing on this forum I would be ostracized and rightfully so. I’m not suggesting that you be ostracized, but rather that it’s not *because* they’re Amish that they’re doing something so despicable.

Many stereotypes have an element of truth to them. For example, in the Middle Ages the Church forbade Christians from charging interest on loans, but Jews were under no such restriction. As a result, many Jews became moneylenders, thereby encurring the resentment of Christians who owed them money. So we get stereotypes like Shakespeare’s Shylock that strike many people as offensive (I think that’s a misreading of The Merchant of Venice), but the stereotype was based on a real cultural practice. (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. That would be funny.) The Amish puppy mills are similar, I think. According to the Amish religious tradition there’s nothing wrong with them, but dog fanciers don’t see it that way. They see a cruel business. I’d never say that all Amish are cruel to animals, but I do think that Amish religious beliefs allow some of them to do something (run puppy mills) that many people believe is wrong, and to do it with a clear conscience. In other words, they’re acting consistently within their own moral framework, but that framework is at odds with the morals of the larger society that they have to deal with. There are a lot of examples of these sorts of conflict between what different cultures think is moral — female circumcision in Africa, Japanese whaling, capital punishment in America (from a European point of view), etc. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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… (I expect Fortenberry to start denouncing me as an antisemite now. …

Stop your whining, Barnard. — Ken Fortenberry- can actually spell anti-Semite

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In standard ROFF form, I’m now being portrayed as "anti-Amish". I’m not, of course. I’m anti-puppy-mill. It just happens that for historical and cultural reasons some Amish are very involved in the puppy mill business. That’s an easily verified fact. It’s kind of like saying that because someone doesn’t like diamonds he must be antisemitic. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Well shit!  That’ll be my last Amish joke.  I will take issue with you RW, on the matter of how amish folks treat their animals…with the exception of my 20+ yrs military and globe trotting out of Elkhart county, I have lived with these folks as my neighbors for most of my life.  They see *any* of their animals as a food source or work unit, even cats are used in the main to keep the rodents out of the grain. Therefore, especially in the case of horses, they are well trained and taken care of…who wants a sickly horse pulling the plow?  Of course, they use huge draft horses for the work, and sleek "trotters" for pulling the buggy. 20 miles from my house is a huge auction barn where they hold horse auctions every Friday, and folks come from miles around to trade with these rapscallions. As for "puppy mills", ain’t never heard of one being run by the amish. They must be a lower order of amish located in Pennsylvania. (ducking here) As to flyfishing, I’ve only witnessed one instance of that, and it was so funny I had to stop my own fishing and just watched.  This would-be flyflinger (in a small boat) would bring the rod clear back to horizontal, then with great force, bring it forward using a full overhead arm swing, to parallel with the water in front.  The resulting splash was something to behold!  Our bluegill population was safe from this guy. Frank (where’s my black hat?) Church

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Because they dont see bloody monty roberts and his bad training techniques on the telly )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price? An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Strange, then perhaps you can explain explain why Amish trained horses always bring a premium price?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. Geeze. Way to let the air out of a good joke, steve…

Geez, I thought the C&R thing was at least a little comic relief. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R.

Geeze. Way to let the air out of a good joke, steve… /daytripper (Get laid or something. Soon. ;^)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – An Amish lady is trotting down the road in her horse and buggy when she is pulled over by a policeman. "Ma’am, I’m not going to ticket you, but I do have to issue you a warning. You have a broken reflector on your buggy." "Oh, I’ll let my husband, Jacob, know as soon as I get home." "That’s fine.  Another thing, ma’am,  I don’t like the way than one rein loops across the horse’s back and around one of his testicles. I consider that cruelty to animals. Have your husband take care of that right away!" Later that day, the lady is home telling her husband about her encounter with the cop. "Well, dear, what exactly did he say?" "He said the reflector is broken." "I can fix that in two minutes.  What else?" "I’m not sure, Jacob…something about the emergency brake…" Frank (dodging road apples) Church

The Amish have many admirable qualities, but the way they treat their animals isn’t one of them, in my opinion. For one thing, they are notorious for running puppy mills. As a dog fancier, I despise that. It’s also common wisdom that you should never even consider buying a horse from an Amish. They treat animals strictly as economic units. Maybe some of you guys in ROFF think that’s OK, but I don’t. It’s fine with me when it comes to chickens and pigs, but I draw the line as dogs and horses. If there are any devout Amish flyfisherman I’m confident in predicting that they don’t practice C&R. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Question:

I think they are all wrong about too much oil. Based on past experience I would think that it is probably the muffler bearings. When they go they create excessive back pressure from the exhaust system and hince the smoke. It’s a pretty common problem. Seek professional help on this one.

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I think they are all wrong about too much oil. Based on past experience I would think that it is probably the muffler bearings. When they go they create excessive back pressure from the exhaust system and hince the smoke. It’s a pretty common problem. Seek professional help on this one.

Good thought, but with newer models (since 1985), the automatic framistat compensates for the back pressure. Joe F.

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I think they are all wrong about too much oil. Based on past experience I would think that it is probably the muffler bearings. When they go they create excessive back pressure from the exhaust system and hince the smoke. It’s a pretty common problem. Seek professional help on this one. Good thought, but with newer models (since 1985), the automatic framistat compensates for the back pressure.

True, but hardly worth noting in light of the fact that the muffler bearings can simply be repacked with about 12 feet of shoreline which, obviously, makes the framistat not only superfluous but also a positive hindrance as its mere presence interferes with the balance of the idler hozzy wozzy.  Excessive engineering at its best!

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True, but hardly worth noting in light of the fact that the muffler bearings can simply be repacked with about 12 feet of shoreline

C’mon guys, quit messing with him. Everyone knows muffler bearings are easy to replace. He should be able to get a set at any marina and I’d expect even Pep Boys carries them. — Charlie…

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True, but hardly worth noting in light of the fact that the muffler bearings can simply be repacked with about 12 feet of shoreline which, obviously, makes the framistat not only superfluous but also a positive hindrance as its mere presence interferes with the balance of the idler hozzy wozzy.  Excessive engineering at its best!

That’s exactly why OMC abandoned the idler hozzy wozzy in 1992.   I think Mercury kept the idler design, but replaced the framistat manifold with a gunkulator assembly.   I never owned one, so I’m not sure about that. Joe F.

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True, but hardly worth noting in light of the fact that the muffler bearings can simply be repacked with about 12 feet of shoreline C’mon guys, quit messing with him. Everyone knows muffler bearings are easy to replace. He should be able to get a set at any marina and I’d expect even Pep Boys carries them.

Yeah, but you gotta have metric crescent wrench to get at ‘em. Joe F.

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C’mon guys, quit messing with him. Everyone knows muffler bearings are easy to replace. Yeah, but you gotta have metric crescent wrench to get at ‘em.

A metric LEFT-HANDED monkey wrench and an ACME skyhook if I recall my "small engine manual for flyfishermen" correctly. — Ken Fortenberry

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That’s exactly why OMC abandoned the idler hozzy wozzy in 1992.   I think Mercury kept the idler design, but replaced the framistat manifold with a gunkulator assembly.   I never owned one, so I’m not sure about that. Joe F.

That gunkulator is a piece of crap, give me a hozzy and a framistat any day. BTW, if you don’t have time or money to redo the muffler bearings, you can get by for a couple months by pouring a bunch of STP into the blinker fluid, or switching to a higher viscosity prequambulator lube.  Don’t wait too long though, or your hozzy wozzy nozzle will plug up. Don’t listen to Charlie, he’s obviously no boat mechanic. — Levi "There are no facts, only interpretations." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s exactly why OMC abandoned the idler hozzy wozzy in 1992.   I think Mercury kept the idler design, but replaced the framistat manifold with a gunkulator assembly.   I never owned one, so I’m not sure about that. Joe F. That gunkulator is a piece of crap, give me a hozzy and a framistat any day. BTW, if you don’t have time or money to redo the muffler bearings, you can get by for a couple months by pouring a bunch of STP into the blinker fluid, or switching to a higher viscosity prequambulator lube.  Don’t wait too long though, or your hozzy wozzy nozzle will plug up.

Ya got that right.    Once your hozzy wozzy nozzle plugs up, your lower unit is shot to hell. Joe F.

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Don’t listen to Charlie, he’s obviously no boat mechanic.

I used to be a quantum mechanic, though – although someone said they make cars by that name nowadays and I *don’t* work on cars<g. — Charlie…

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Youse guys are really cruel.  I guy writes in to a fly fishing ng about problems with exhaust bearings on his outboard motor, and you make fun of him and his problem.  For shame, for shame.  It almost makes me want to go to alt.fishing.timbo….. Dave LaCourse

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Sure, every one carries them, but you need a left handed frankinjerk to get the old ones out and they are hard to find. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – True, but hardly worth noting in light of the fact that the muffler bearings can simply be repacked with about 12 feet of shoreline C’mon guys, quit messing with him. Everyone knows muffler bearings are easy to replace. He should be able to get a set at any marina and I’d expect even Pep Boys carries them. — Charlie…

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"Gunkulator" ?   Sounds dangerously familiar somehow ? TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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A Siemens lufthaken is necessary for holding the foo-foo valve in the correct position while carrying out adjustments.  This is difficult when one is all at sea. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

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Don’t listen to Charlie, he’s obviously no boat mechanic. I used to be a quantum mechanic, though – although someone said they make cars by that name nowadays and I *don’t* work on cars<g. — Charlie…

I guess a quantum mechanic would advise changing oil every 300 billion light years? — Levi "There are no facts, only interpretations." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Response:

That gunkulator is a piece of crap, give me a hozzy and a framistat any day. BTW, if you don’t have time or money to redo the muffler bearings, you can get by for a couple months by pouring a bunch of STP into the blinker fluid, or switching to a higher viscosity prequambulator lube.  Don’t wait too long though, or your hozzy wozzy nozzle will plug up.

All of this is good info, but after doing some research and asking a small engine mechanic who is a friend of mine, we both came to the conclusion that the flux capacitor also might be the problem.  It would definitely make the plugs foul quicker since they aren’t receiving enough juice and would account for the unburnt fuel/oil you are seeing. I would suggest checking into all of the possibilities.  If it is the flux capacitor, you might as well replace the muffler bearings and such at the same time.  You are basically going to have to tear the engine apart to get at the capacitor anyways. HTH. Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

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Hey, Vern, you should be able to help this guy. You probably know some small engine mechanics. -- visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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Hey, Vern, you should be able to help this guy. You probably know some small engine mechanics.

        i'm pleased to observe that a little time in the pacific didn't rust the old needle, rw.  hilarious. wayno

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Fly fishing NG???  Amount of smoking is relative term.  All 2 cycles smoke. Did you mix the proper ratio of oil to gas for that engine, probably 50 to 1. Pull the plug and look at it. If the oil mixture was right and the plug is sooty black and wet, the engine is probably low on compression. Perfectly usable but don't leave shore without spare plugs to put in when it fouls. jim

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I am new to boating. I have an old Outboard Marine 7.5hp two cycle engine. I was having a tough time starting it and keeping it going. I changed the spark plugs and it started up and seems to be running great. The only problem seems to be excessive blue smoke coming from the exhaust. Could this be a result of two much oil in the gas ? Are there other things I should check out ? Thanks in advance for your help.

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Try cutting back on the oil.                                    [Image]                                    [Image]                                   [Image]                                 Drive Me There Try to learn a little something about the forum before you come barging in with a bunch of bullshit. It’s called netiquette and you’re in dire need of it. — Ken Fortenberry

no kidding, i’ve never had any other post here try to send me cookies and all the java error messages…. 64 galaxie will not be read by me again. chris

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Try cutting back on the oil.

Drive Me There

EcardsEcards#2Expedia mapsJERRY F Bible MapblastF-KEYSPhoto pointMUSIC-100Music ShopClearCache

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Try cutting back on the oil.

Try posting with just text instead of all the webtv html junk. — Charlie…

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Try cutting back on the oil.                                    [Image]                                    [Image]                                   [Image]                                 Drive Me There

Try to learn a little something about the forum before you come barging in with a bunch of bullshit. It’s called netiquette and you’re in dire need of it. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

I am new to boating. I have an old Outboard Marine 7.5hp two cycle engine. I was having a tough time starting it and keeping it going. I changed the spark plugs and it started up and seems to be running great. The only problem seems to be excessive blue smoke coming from the exhaust. Could this be a result of two much oil in the gas ? Are there other things I should check out ? Thanks in advance for your help.

Response:

I am new to boating.

        well, that makes you and this newsgroup about even.  I have an old Outboard Marine 7.5hp two cycle engine. I was having a tough time starting it and keeping it going. I changed the spark plugs and it started up and seems to be running great. The only problem seems to be excessive blue smoke coming from the exhaust. Could this be a result of two much oil in the gas ?

        more likely it’s a result of three two much oil in the gas.  Are there other things I should check out ?

        your clue bag.  i think it’s empty. Thanks in advance for your help.

        oh, any time. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

Looking for web sites with current Colorado water flows for fly fishing streams.  Please email me the url’s of any sites that have this info.  Thanks

Response:

http://www.dnr.state.co.us/water/flow/ Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking for web sites with current Colorado water flows for fly fishing streams.  Please email me the url’s of any sites that have this info.  Thanks

Response:

Question:

Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. Bill

Response:

Bill Smith" asks: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above.

Get a 1" long section of clear hose, slice it, place it on the rail or whatever and mount the 1" stainless flagpole atop it. -Bruce

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Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above.

That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie Bill

Hmmmm. Maybe I need a stars and stripes fishing kite… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - I’d love to, but I’m teaching my parrot to yodel.

Response:

Hi, A different way to get those strippers! Eh! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik 309-676-0224 (fax)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie Bill Hmmmm. Maybe I need a stars and stripes fishing kite… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - I’d love to, but I’m teaching my parrot to yodel.

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Stripers! Eh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, A different way to get those strippers! Eh! — Regards and God Speed, Gary Gary W. Sandvik 309-676-0224 (fax) Dumb question: Does anyone know where I can find stainless steel flagpole mounts in 3/4" dia.?  I can only find stainless in 1" and above. That’s gonna be a special order item. It’ll be cheaper to buy a larger flag pole. And while we’re on the subject of flags: The biggest mistake most people make is under-flagging their boats. The correct size flag is 1" of fly (length of the stripes) to 1′ of boat length. Since flags only come in 18" x 30", 24" x 36" etc…if your boat length falls ANYwhere in the middle, go UP to the next larger size, not down to the smaller one. IOW, the correct flag size for my 32′ boat is 24" x 36", not 18 x 30. Peggie Bill Hmmmm. Maybe I need a stars and stripes fishing kite… — Harry Krause – - – - – - – - – - – - I’d love to, but I’m teaching my parrot to yodel.

Response:

Hi, A different way to get those strippers! Eh! — Regards and God Speed, Gary

Strippers are easy to get; stripers are more difficult.

Response:

Question:

Anyone have info on fly fishing at Lake Casitas and/or along the beach in Ventura/Santa Barbara area?  Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

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Check with Jandd Mountaineering in Santa Barbara 882-1195.  They have a fly shop and might be able to help you.  If not there is a new shop in Santa Barbara called "MacDuff’s" in the 1000 or 1100 block of State St. that should be able to help.  Surf Perch fishing is pretty good with crab patterns along the Ventura beach area. Wes along the beach – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -in Ventura/Santa Barbara area?  Looking to do some fishing closer to home. Thanks Jeff M.

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Question:

Anybody know of a lure resembling a Cicada (cyclical locust)?  Is there a company that might be able to custom-make such a device? — Ellard Douglas Imagine if time was logarithmic, and we were just living an exponential existence!                   Timothy D. Kuehn Comments made by Ellard Douglas do not represent the policies of CMS. By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meet the definition of a telephone fax machine.  By Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment, punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation.

  vcard.vcf

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Response:

There is a lure called a Cicada made by Reef Runner Lure Co. It works quite well ! Look fer it in  Bass Pro Shops or Cabela’s catalogs.

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If you are into fly fishing, try a big muddler minnow & add floatant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is a lure called a Cicada made by Reef Runner Lure Co. It works quite well ! Look fer it in  Bass Pro Shops or Cabela’s catalogs.

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Question:

I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation.         It happened quietly, on streams most flyfishers would never frequent, but that’s just the thing with alternative. Bored with their pierced noses and pawn shop Sears guitars these lost souls now prowl the carp fisheries of the world dressed in oversized waders they wear backwards, torn flannel shirts and stocking caps. Kicking aside old shopping carts they cast their alternative flies to the bottom feeders of the piscatorial world because they see it as a projection of their own bleak so called life. One of the pioneers in alternative flyfishing is known as "Mr. Black". His anti-innovation sets the pace for the movement. Mr. Black has modified many of Joe Brooks’ Blonde patterns for use by his followers, coming up with such patterns as Suicide Blonde, Throat Slashed Blonde, No Reason To Even Bother Blonde and Black Blonde (a Dennis Rodman tribute fly). "Yeah, I cast them out on this old Philipson parabolic glass rod I found at the dump, sometimes I catch a fish. I guess the ultimate would be to snag a carp, pierce it’s anal fin, then slash my wrists" he told me when I met him in the outflow of a local tannery.         Much of what the alternative flyfishers indulge in; casting without rhythm, using 10 weight lines on 4 weight rods, using butt sections lighter than the tippet, doesn’t really bother anyone, but the practice of piercing may become an issue. The Charles River in Boston is rumored to have a huge population of carp boasting pentangle studs in ther anal fins. There is much concern that these impromtu piercings will result in infections that will endanger other populations. Mr. Black doesn’t see this as a big problem, however, "Well like everything is pretty much doomed anyways so at least the carp get to feel pretty while descending into the inevitable depths of hell." Thus far the alternative flyfishers have ignored such species as trout, salmon, etc., but it’s only a matter of time before we start pulling in fish wearing earrings. When this happens we’ll see the yuppies as ‘the good old days’. Be afraid, be very afraid.                                                                 jc

Response:

Frikken Preppies, ruinin’ flyfishin… TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation.         It happened quietly, on streams most flyfishers would never frequent, but that’s just the thing with alternative. Bored with their pierced noses and pawn shop Sears guitars these lost souls now prowl the carp fisheries of the world dressed in oversized waders they wear backwards, torn flannel shirts and stocking caps. Kicking aside old shopping carts they cast their alternative flies to the bottom feeders of the piscatorial world because they see it as a projection of their own bleak so called life. One of the pioneers in alternative flyfishing is known as "Mr. Black". His anti-innovation sets the pace for the movement. Mr. Black has modified many of Joe Brooks’ Blonde patterns for use by his followers, coming up with such patterns as Suicide Blonde, Throat Slashed Blonde, No Reason To Even Bother Blonde and Black Blonde (a Dennis Rodman tribute fly). "Yeah, I cast them out on this old Philipson parabolic glass rod I found at the dump, sometimes I catch a fish. I guess the ultimate would be to snag a carp, pierce it’s anal fin, then slash my wrists" he told me when I met him in the outflow of a local tannery.         Much of what the alternative flyfishers indulge in; casting without rhythm, using 10 weight lines on 4 weight rods, using butt sections lighter than the tippet, doesn’t really bother anyone, but the practice of piercing may become an issue. The Charles River in Boston is rumored to have a huge population of carp boasting pentangle studs in ther anal fins. There is much concern that these impromtu piercings will result in infections that will endanger other populations. Mr. Black doesn’t see this as a big problem, however, "Well like everything is pretty much doomed anyways so at least the carp get to feel pretty while descending into the inevitable depths of hell." Thus far the alternative flyfishers have ignored such species as trout, salmon, etc., but it’s only a matter of time before we start pulling in fish wearing earrings. When this happens we’ll see the yuppies as ‘the good old days’. Be afraid, be very afraid.                                                                 jc

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation….

Busted! Ya nailed us, dude! "Get the hell out of my drift, you BOOMER sonofabitch, or I’ll send Trent Reznor to your house to collect your pets!" Piercing carp….I’ll be laughing about that for days. Maybe now that style is a factor, I won’t bother getting the guides replaced on my old Simpsons-Sears fibreglass POLE after all… As a proud member of Generation X (Douglas Coupland’s definition — he’s 36 now), I salute you Mr. Cloyd for accurately identifying the next big fishing demographic! — K.G. (Kat) Cruickshank, Slacker. Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

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more snip Not to worry about the GenXers.  They aren’t going to have time to fish or the money to do it.  They are all going to be too busy scrambling to keep their jobs at McDonalds and Burger Chef.  Yuppie as a "hip" term in popular culture may be passe’, but their sure as hell are a lot of ‘em showing up at my favorite fishing holes these days.  I prefer the GenXers, earrings or no.   — Indy http://realindy.com

I almost never see "yuppies" fishing, and wonder how one identifies them in the field. A "Field Guide to Yuppies" thereya go. I see people out there who are my age (41) and people older and younger, but have never seen any blatantly obnoxious behavior from any of them, so tell me Indy how I can tell. Anyways, IMO earrings are cool but my faith in the GenXers was shaken when I heard Slash playing on "adult contemporary radio (muzak)". What the hell is this world coming to….

Response:

I hate to burst anyones bubble, but yuppification is passe, out, history. The term is now about as happening as preppies. The real trend in flyfishing, as in life and especially music, is alternative. While we obsess about the coming invasion of Eddie Bauer Explorers to our secret spots our sport is slowly being infiltrated and destroyed by the angst generation.

snip,snip,snip  Thus far the alternative flyfishers have ignored such species as trout, salmon, etc., but it’s only a matter of time before we start pulling in fish wearing earrings. When this happens we’ll see the yuppies as ‘the good old days’. Be afraid, be very afraid.                                                                 jc

Not to worry about the GenXers.  They aren’t going to have time to fish or the money to do it.  They are all going to be too busy scrambling to keep their jobs at McDonalds and Burger Chef.  Yuppie as a "hip" term in popular culture may be passe’, but their sure as hell are a lot of ‘em showing up at my favorite fishing holes these days.  I prefer the GenXers, earrings or no.   — Indy http://realindy.com

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