Question:

P&P has a small bonefishing lodge on the other end of the island. http://www.peaceandplenty.com/resorts/bonefish.htm there is a dock, unsure if you could rent though, i think the idea is to provide you with a guide and boat. no night life though, you would have to go into georgetown for that, too far to walk or bicycle. to follow up whoever mentioned Stocking island, taking the ferry from the main hotel in town and walking accross stocking island to the exposed side is well worth the effort. the view from the top is quite nice as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Surfnturf, I have heard of the place, ran across it somewhere on the internet. Sounds very beautiful, maybe a bit too remote for me this trip. I want just a little bit of  "Bahamian culture" and night life to spice things up for me and the lady. Are you familiar with the Staniel Cay Yacht Club? That looks like it would be a trip worth investigating sometime too. Rich

Response:

I know this is a boat newsgroup, but I presume many of you have cruised the Bahama out islands and Exuma. A lady friend and I are planning a vacation to George Town, Exuma in April. I would like to be close to town and plan on renting a boat. I’m looking for reasonable accommodations close to the water near a dock or marina where I can keep a boat. I prefer a place that is not too crowded, commercial, i.e. NOT Club Peace and Plenty unless someone can convince me otherwise. Any suggestions appreciated. Anyone familiar with Minns Cottages, Coral Gardens Bed & Breakfast Inn, Two Turtles Inn, Marshall’s Guest House, Flamingo Bay Hotel and Villas, Coconut Cove Hotel, Mount Pleasant Hotel? I would like to do some fly fishing on the flats for bonefish and offshore light tackle fly fishing too. Any good guide recommendations or charters? Sincerely, Rich Lamanna

Response:

In the 80’s we had only 3 choices. Peace & Plenty, two Turtle Inn ( across the street for P&P) and another resort type place but I can’t remember the name. We really enjoyed the P&P really quaint. There wasn’t much of a town and P&P was in it. But on our second visit went to the resort type place because P&P didn’t have a beach. They own an absolutely great, private beach about a 5 minute ride across the bay called stocking island. P&P was the hotel that all boaters got their mail delivered to. They catered to boaters needs. But remember this was in the 80’s. I would go back to P&P in a minute, no hesitation. That’s my 2 cents FWIW. Joe Sand Dollar Noank, CT  

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Joe, thanks for the reply. I have some friends who spent their honeymoon at P&P. They thought it was great too. What did you think of Two Turtles Inn? Did you have a chance to check it out? I realize it was a long time ago but any recollection would be appreciated. Sincerely, Rich

Response:

Are you set on going to Georgetown? I have another suggestion -very remote – very beautiful – fantastic!!!  Check out Compass Cay on the Internet.  Just south of the Land and Sea Park and about 10 miles north of Staniel Cay where there is an airport.   ADVANTAGES: Remote Most beautiful beach in the Exhumas 1 mile crescent shapped beach Beach "busy" if anyone else there 10 slip marina 1 lodge and 2 rental apartments friendly native owner no bars – no restaurants- no people rental boats and motors Bone fish galore DISADVANTAGES Remote No bars – no restaurants 10 miles by boat to store and restaurant Didn’t make it there last winter but spent several months there on our boat in 1999 and 2000.  Fantastic if you want to get away from civilization.  Fantastic if you want to bone fish.  Fantastic if you like to snorkel and explore.

Response:

Surfnturf, I have heard of the place, ran across it somewhere on the internet. Sounds very beautiful, maybe a bit too remote for me this trip. I want just a little bit of  "Bahamian culture" and night life to spice things up for me and the lady. Are you familiar with the Staniel Cay Yacht Club? That looks like it would be a trip worth investigating sometime too. Rich

Response:

The SCYC is 10 miles south of Compass.  It is located near the airport for the area.  Great conch burgers at the bar.  Also have had good dinner there. Colorful cabins on the water for guests.  Bahamian culture – yes night life – no.  Staniel Cay has a couple of local bars and restaurants, the SCYC and Thunderball restaurants and a couple of grocery stores (with most of the "sell by" dates on merchandise erased).  Still serviced once a week by mail boat for supplies and mail.  Airport makes it convenient but not a place where I would take a lady for a fun visit.  Less remote than Compass but activities primarily boating, fishing and water oriented.  If both of you are not really into that, it would be a mistake.  Have you looked at the Abacos and Eluthera.  Spanish Wells, Harbour Island and Hope Town get a strong recommendation from my wife. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Surfnturf, I have heard of the place, ran across it somewhere on the internet. Sounds very beautiful, maybe a bit too remote for me this trip. I want just a little bit of  "Bahamian culture" and night life to spice things up for me and the lady. Are you familiar with the Staniel Cay Yacht Club? That looks like it would be a trip worth investigating sometime too. Rich

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Question:

Tell Charlie and the others to be more respectful in the future and you will see all this nonsense disappear from this point on.

Just when you thought they couldn’t get funnier… — Charlie…

Response:

____  I can take ass chewing when its justified, but you like everyone else don’t do your homework.  Why don’t you go back to the beginning and realize that I don’t take anyone on unless they attack me unjustly. That has been the case every time.  Check the treads Tom. If what you say about Wayne is true, then I’ve been duped by him and now you. Frankly, your attack on me is also off base.  Roff has turned into a vile place and has been needing a moderator for several years now.  I can assure you, starting from scratch, I’d be the last one a moderator would need to correct. If there is correcting to do, I’d say you’re off base on this one.  If you go back and TAKE INVENTORY my friend, you will see that it was Wayne that started writing dribble to me when in fact up to that point I never did that and if so in the past, it was so minor as to be just humorous and friendly barbs about lawyers.   Go back and check Tom.  If you dare.  I never attacked Wayne because he never provoked me until the posts prior to my challenge on what possibly could cause a reasonable man to say the things he said.  Consider this. If anyone in the future, from this POINT on . . . smart mouths me, which I won’t instigate, you take note of it pal.  I don’t call you Brownie, I don’t demean your name, I don’t call you any kind of names and I’ve always treated you with respect.  But when you come charging at me fighting other people’s battles which THEY start, then I say you’re sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong and you do not know the treads or those who start them. So, politely leave me alone regarding retorts.  I’m not here to impress you or to talk ill of you.  I would do that in private.  So you and the other feeding sharks who have no idea what the hell you’re doing, should do your home work before you. Again, from this point on, read the posts Tom before you get on my case.  I’m the the bad guy here.  Tell Charlie and the others to be more respectful in the future and you will see all this nonsense disappear from this point on. Let’s see, who throws the first stone after you Tom. I promise, it is never me. Get back to fly fishing everyone and clean up your acts before you start trying to correct me.  And don’t dig up old stuff out of context.  That also doesn’t fly anymore as it is self serving and those NEVER show the instigators I have challenged. Lately, do me a favor Tom.  Do everyone here a favor.  If EVER anyone demeans anyone in the slightest way, why don’t you point that out immediately in the future?   You be a test moderator and let’s see who gets to 10 points first. Think about it. Again, I’m not the bad guy here. Okay? — George G. Bastard Bamboo Fly Rods http://www.gink.com/ http://www.gink.com/chat

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Again, from this point on, read the posts Tom before you get on my case.  I’m the the bad guy here.   Again, I’m not the bad guy here. Okay?

so which is it?  bad or not bad? <G cb

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Question:

It was good to meet you and great to fish with you. Hope you continue to post. Next year maybe a Colorado/New Mexico Clave? Willi

Response:

Next year maybe a Colorado/New Mexico Clave? Willi

Now that that cat is out of the bag, I’ll tell you that I’ve started a list of potential locations for a CO/NM western clave 2001. A friend in the office showed me some pictures today, and after some coaxing i got the locations from him….  beautiful cutthroats…. lots of other nearby fishing….. WESTERN CLAVE 2001  in a secret town somewhere in southern colorado. bruiser Before you buy.

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Education & employment: Went to college in Lubbock, Tx at Texas Tech University.  Received a BBA in MIS/Finance and MBA with a concentration in MIS.  

Welcome to another Red Raider. As far as I know we are the only two on ROFF. Big Dale, Class of ‘77

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colorado. bruiser

Count me in. Any excuse to get to the mountains in the summertime. Big Dale

Response:

Count me in!!! But whats this "next year" stuff?? Ain’t there fishin yet to be done this year, or do you suppose there’s so many claves going already there might be conflicts? (Conflicts??? on ROFF??? Tell me ain’t so !!!) Danl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Next year maybe a Colorado/New Mexico Clave? Willi Now that that cat is out of the bag, I’ll tell you that I’ve started a list of potential locations for a CO/NM western clave 2001. A friend in the office showed me some pictures today, and after some coaxing i got the locations from him….  beautiful cutthroats…. lots of other nearby fishing….. WESTERN CLAVE 2001  in a secret town somewhere in southern colorado. bruiser Before you buy.

Response:

With Big Dale and Dan’l, it’s a CLAVE already. We want time to plan, and time for everyone to restock their travel $ and hall passes.  Probably July 2001. Big Dale, we all missed you at the W Clave, although we know you’d have liked to go. We’ll get Jon Cook and Kelly roped into it also i’m sure.  Correct me if i’m wrong, jon, but it seems like you know your way around NM and CO pretty well. Before you buy.

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BIO name:  Kelly Rogers but I answer to a lot of things, depending upon the who’s yellin’ at me

<snipped a damn impressive BIO ’bout damn time there Kelly! <g  Enjoyed reading your 3 part post and look forward to reading mroe from you.  I was beginning to think you were going to wuss out. So did you do any fishin’ after the clave?  Feel free to email me the secret locations. I never did get a chance to stop in there and check on that girly, but I am planning on going for a weekend very soon and will no doubt have some free time. — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

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rivers. Big Dale All we need is a clavemeister, Big Dale. I know at least one guy will show up.

It won’t be me. I have spent my whole life trying to stay out of west Texas and the decade I spent there was the worst flyfishing in my life. Big Dale

Response:

I’m also thinking of a trip to southern Colorado/northern New Mexico sometime this September to check out some possible areas. Anyone interested in getting together?

   I’m up for that Willi, let’s synchonize our daytimers.    I’d been giving some thought to doing a clave in the North Park area, maybe even volunteering to be clavemeister. Wherever it is held, the bossman will need to be somebody with good knowledge of the local waters; me and Willi and probably a few others can find our way around North Park. Just an idea.

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   I’d been giving some thought to doing a clave in the North Park area, maybe even volunteering to be clavemeister. Wherever it is held, the bossman will need to be somebody with good knowledge of the local waters; me and Willi and probably a few others can find our way around North Park. Just an idea.

Dude, what about South Park?!?  Oh my god!  You killed Vern!  You bastard!!!! <g — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

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It ain’t a hell of a lot of fun flyfishing in the land of dusty rivers. Big Dale

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It ain’t a hell of a lot of fun flyfishing in the land of dusty rivers. Big Dale All we need is a clavemeister, Big Dale. I know at least one guy will show up.

I don’t know.  Maybe a Vegas Clave with each member bringing a big roll of 20s.  Maybe Vern can give us some casting lessons and show us where the honey holes are <g — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

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It ain’t a hell of a lot of fun flyfishing in the land of dusty rivers. Big Dale

All we need is a clavemeister, Big Dale. I know at least one guy will show up. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I do have a question though.  What are the possiblities of having more than one Western Clave for 2001?  Maybe another in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming as well as the CO/NM clave.  Thoughts, ideas, suggestions anyone?

How about West Texas? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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(awesome plan clipped) WHAT HE SAID!!! bruiser Before you buy.

Response:

Willi, September’s great i agree.  I’m into a remodeling job on a dump i just bought but maybe a day or two here and there… I am psyched now for next september. bruiser Before you buy.

Response:

Willi, September’s great i agree.  I’m into a remodeling job on a dump i just bought but maybe a day or two here and there… I am psyched now for next september. bruiser

Bruiser, you know to just count me in.  How the hell could I say no after reading over half of this book in one night (p 104 of 142 btw)?!?! I do have a question though.  What are the possiblities of having more than one Western Clave for 2001?  Maybe another in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming as well as the CO/NM clave.  Thoughts, ideas, suggestions anyone? — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

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I do have a question though.  What are the possiblities of having more than one Western Clave for 2001?  Maybe another in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming as well as the CO/NM clave.  Thoughts, ideas, suggestions anyone?

I like Willi’s idea for a September CO/NM ‘Clave. I’ve been mulling over the idea of a summer ‘Clave in the Park. If we got on it early enough we could rent cabins at Roosevelt and be a short drive from a wide variety of fishing. From the geezer accessible Lamar and Soda Butte to the real challenge of Hellroaring Creek and the canyon of the Yellowstone. Steve’s horses are welcome in the Park and of course there’s campgrounds for those that prefer to camp. Just a thought. — Ken Fortenberry

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I’m game if I can work out the time schedule. When do you have in mind? Danl

July 2001. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I vote for fall. Fishing is always good in September. Weather is usually great, tourists are gone etc. July fishing depends on snow pack and the tourists are out in force. I’m also thinking of a trip to southern Colorado/northern New Mexico sometime this September to check out some possible areas. Anyone interested in getting together? Willi

Response:

restock their travel $ and hall passes.  Probably July 2001.

This sounds good, but a little naive. I don’t see my travel $ ever being restocked what with some talking of a meeting in The Big Easy ( I always spend WAY TOO MUCH in the big easy). I have never fishing in Penn and have always wanted to see a game in Happy Valley. I have always enjoyed fishing Northern New Mexico and Colorado. One area I go to as often as I can is around Gunnison, cause it has lots of different types of water. I happen to enjoy those little brookies and cutthroats in the high mountain meadows…they are small but the area is beautiful. The more I think about it I am tempted to load the truck and leave right now. Big Dale.

Response:

With Big Dale and Dan’l, it’s a CLAVE already. We want time to plan, and time for everyone to restock their travel $ and hall passes.  Probably July 2001.

I vote for fall. Fishing is always good in September. Weather is usually great, tourists are gone etc. July fishing depends on snow pack and the tourists are out in force. Big Dale, we all missed you at the W Clave, although we know you’d have liked to go. We’ll get Jon Cook and Kelly roped into it also i’m sure.  Correct me if i’m wrong, jon, but it seems like you know your way around NM and CO pretty well.

I’m also thinking of a trip to southern Colorado/northern New Mexico sometime this September to check out some possible areas. Anyone interested in getting together? Willi

Response:

BIO name:  Kelly Rogers but I answer to a lot of things, depending upon the who’s yellin’ at me vitals: 6′4", as recent as a couple of months ago 226 lbs but currently hoverin’ around 208 lbs. (who says lite beer diet doesn’t work) , 35 yrs old the early years:  Born in Irving, TX but moved to Big Spring, TX in 1972 when my Grand Pa  past away.  Moved there to take over the family cotton farm along with a small time (and I do mean small time, 25-30 head) cattle operation that was thrown in for good measure.  Had a great up bringing of hard work on the farm, chasing gals in the big city of Big Spring, and drinking beer (not necessarily in that order). Education & employment: Went to college in Lubbock, Tx at Texas Tech University.  Received a BBA in MIS/Finance and MBA with a concentration in MIS.  Went to work at Sandia National Labs in 1992 and currently still employed there which is my first and only job outside of the farm. marital stats:  Married 10 years in June but that will probably be done in about a month. fishin’ stats:  Started fishing early on mostly on lakes and stock ponds around the house.  Not much to choose from in west Texas.  In 1992, a co-worker introduced me to flyfishing and have looked back since. Other interest: bird hunting and up until 1992-93, competitive trapshooting. Started shooting in 1979 through 4-H.  Shot skeet for about 1 1/2 years before a friend invited me over to the trap range one Saturday.  Shot three rounds that day and the friend told my Dad that if he didn’t take me to San Angelo the next day to shoot in the Zone II shoot that he would.  Dad took me that next day where I won runner up in the handicap championship.  Used the prize money to buy my own BT-99 and finished out that year shooting only singles and handicap.  The next year I started shooting doubles in order to try and make the All-American team.  Made the junior team that year and the next.  After the second year on the team, the ATA sent me to the US Nationals for Olympic style shooting where I won the US Nationals. Over the next 3 years, I won the Nationals one more time and 3rd twice.  As a junior, I shot in two World Championships in 1983 (Canada) and 1985 (Italy).  Won 2nd in ‘83 and 4th in ‘85.  I quit Olympic style after ‘85 and went back to shooting ATA.  Shot for the next 6 years with my best year coming in the 91′ season where I ended up high-overall and doubles (at the time, my average was 8th highest on record but they’ve since kicked the livin’ snot outta that) average leader for the year.  Over the years, I shot a Browning BT-99, Gamba combo, Perazzi, Beretta (they made a matched set of combo’s for me when I was there in 85), and finally a Kreighoff K-80 from ‘89 on.  In ‘93, I was hitting pretty hard on the burnout factor when I suffered a 2.5-degree separation of my right shoulder playing softball.  Combine those two things with my new love of flyfishing, I decided to hang’em up.  I’m also an avid hacker, and I do mean hacker, of the golf ball. Jeez, pretty simple life I guess but that’s about it. Kelly

Response:

Question:

The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, that he wore on the video, robbing the store, and his counsel’s failure to object was "i.c."

What a boob.   On the one hand, I don’t understand what is objectionable about it that leads to the i.c. basis.   I mean, the guy wore it volutarily and produced evidence "in plain sight".   No way even a competent defense attorney could have anticipated this.   (Apparently I didn’t learn much from the OJ trial.) OTOH, who’s to say he didn’t buy the shirt at Goodwill or find it in a dumpster. Can’t see how having the shirt months after the crime is much evidence (other than circumstantial) of anything.   If the police had found it in his posession the night of the crime, that’s one thing, but weeks or months later its trail is pretty stale IMHO. Also can’t swallow the "waste of tax dollars" assertion.   In a climate where so many are vocal about the government taking away our rights, isn’t it good to see a case where the government is protecting them?   Still, what a boob. Joe F.

Response:

The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, ___that he wore on the video___, robbing the store, and his

counsel’s failure to object was "i.c." What a boob.   On the one hand, I don’t understand what is objectionable about it that leads to the i.c. basis.   I mean, the guy wore it volutarily and produced evidence "in plain sight".   No way even a competent defense attorney could have anticipated this.   (Apparently I didn’t learn much from the OJ trial.)

One of my points, in general. OTOH, who’s to say he didn’t buy the shirt at Goodwill or find it in a dumpster. Can’t see how having the shirt months after the crime is much evidence (other than circumstantial) of anything.   If the police had found it in his posession the night of the crime, that’s one thing, but weeks or months later its trail is pretty stale IMHO.

Pretty unlucky find, I’d say:  A guy who looks exactly like the accused dumping off the shirt, and our hapless accused being unlucky enough to buy/find it.  From what I’ve heard, this is one of those, "I’m not saying I didn’t do it, I did it, I’m just saying it wasn’t ‘fair’." Plus, the police didn’t find it, he produced it.  What’s he going to say, Mark Furrmann(sp?) dressed him? Also can’t swallow the "waste of tax dollars" assertion.   In a climate where so many are vocal about the government taking away our rights, isn’t it good to see a case where the government is protecting them?   Still, what a boob.

No, this is a waste.  He was a) stupid enough to rob a store at gunpoint, for money, b) stupid enough to prove himself guilty (or is that guilty enough to prove himself stupid? – either way…) TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe F.

Response:

(snip)  Besides, his lawyer probably *should* have told him how to dress as part of his job in this case, the guy wasn’t arrested for bitch slapping someone at a Mensa meeting, after all. — Charlie…

I don’t think bitch slapping at a Mensa meeting is a crime at all, Charlie. As to the case in question, I must cast my lot with the appeals court that reversed the conviction.  Whether it was intentional or unintentional, craftiness or stupidity, the essence of our system is that a trial in which a person’s liberty or life is at stake should be as fair as possible.  Hell, I think even the trial judge could have properly corrected this situation before it became a problem.  Someone mentioned this in a previous post, but in my mind most states are penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to assuring that all criminal defendants have competent counsel and related support for a defense.  Because it’s politically unpopular to provide such for indigent defendants, the resources are not allocated in the first instance; then, when the conviction is reversed the taxpayer pays all over again. Mark Faulkner

Response:

(snip)  Besides, his lawyer probably *should* have told him how to dress as part of his job in this case, the guy wasn’t arrested for bitch slapping someone at a Mensa meeting, after all. — Charlie… I don’t think bitch slapping at a Mensa meeting is a crime at all, Charlie.

OK, so that part is simple reflex, but… As to the case in question, I must cast my lot with the appeals court that reversed the conviction.  Whether it was intentional or unintentional, craftiness or stupidity, the essence of our system is that a trial in which a person’s liberty or life is at stake should be as fair as possible.  Hell, I think even the trial judge could have properly corrected this situation before it became a problem.  Someone mentioned this in a previous post, but in my mind most states are penny wise and pound foolish when it comes to assuring that all criminal defendants have competent counsel and related support for a defense.  Because it’s politically unpopular to provide such for indigent defendants, the resources are not allocated in the first instance; then, when the conviction is reversed the taxpayer pays all over again.

What?  Do you truly believe this?  Why is it encumbering to the people of Texas to defend such a person?   While I believe in the 5th Amendment, what possible defense is there against a guilty person’s own stupidity?  The goal of the system is (or at least should be) the truth, and we have it, and the defendant willingly and openly provided evidence.  The adversarial system wasn’t compromised, no abuse took place, there is nothing to correct.  What exactly wasn’t "fair"?   CDAs argue when the accused is in jailwear, so he got to wear his own stuff. Seemingly, under this theory, testimony regarding the fact the gun was found at his home should be disallowed because his counsel was too ineffective to tell him to get rid of it. R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mark Faulkner

Response:

Shoot, Peter.  Somehow I can not see our esteemed roffian lawyers fishing with K-Mart blue light specials!  It is blaspheme, I tell ya…….  <g Louie, who don’t need to stinkin’ lawy…..errrrr.   Don’t wanna burn bridges here……

Our esteemed roffian lwayers would *never* make such an egregious error, maybe in their choice of fly or scotch perhaps, but never in a court room. Peter (sucking up big time)

Response:

Shoot, Peter.  Somehow I can not see our esteemed roffian lawyers fishing with K-Mart blue light specials!  It is blaspheme, I tell ya…….  <g Louie, who don’t need to stinkin’ lawy…..errrrr.   Don’t wanna burn bridges here…… Our esteemed roffian lwayers would *never* make such an egregious error, maybe in their choice of fly or scotch perhaps, but never in a court room. Peter (sucking up big time)

You misspelled "laywayers"… <G R

Response:

Our esteemed roffian lwayers

waylers, maybe? — Charlie…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s he going to say, Mark Furrmann(sp?) dressed him? LOL.   YEAH! That’s it! No, this is a waste.  He was a) stupid enough to rob a store at gunpoint, for money, b) stupid enough to prove himself guilty (or is that guilty enough to prove himself stupid? – either way…) Well, I gotta think he was convicted on a lot more than this dumb shirt.   His picture on the camera & I assume the eyewitness testimony of the clerk. Possibly fingerprints or other physical evidence.   However, your points above seem a circular argument.   He’s guilty because he has the shirt, and the shirt shouldn’t matter because he’s guilty anyway.   Frankly the shirt sounds like a red herring.   If counsel was otherwise competent and the evidence was otherwise conclusive, it does seem a waste of resources; but the rights of the accused are paramount in our system (that’s why Wayno can afford a T&T or two).   I like it that way in general, even when a specific case makes it difficult to remember.

I’m not sure what you mean by red herring, but if you mean it is simply a guilty man’s way of taking another bite, I agree.  To me, it is like someone who confesses (uncoerced), and then tries to "legal" their way out of it.  Further, I think the rights of the accused are important, but this isn’t protecting his rights against or in an adversarial system, perfect or imperfect.  It isn’t even "self-incrimination" in the 5th Amendment sense.  This is excusing his own stupidity: he’s guilty, but he’s stupid, and his lawyer _may_ be ineffective, but let’s start over with "better" counsel.  The DA and cops didn’t dress him, trick him into wearing it, plant it on him, or anything else. R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe F.

Response:

Our esteemed roffian lwayers waylers, maybe? — Charlie…

don’t I get any points fro getting ‘egregious’ right? jeez, this is a tough croud. Peter

Response:

don’t I get any points fro getting ‘egregious’ right? jeez, this is a tough croud.

fro? <g — Charlie…

Response:

don’t I get any points fro getting ‘egregious’ right? jeez, this is a tough croud. fro? <g — Charlie…

For the "stuck in the seventies" lwayers… <G R

Response:

[snip] This is excusing his own stupidity: he’s guilty, but he’s stupid, and his lawyer _may_ be ineffective, but let’s start over with "better" counsel.  The DA and cops didn’t dress him, trick him into wearing it, plant it on him, or anything else.

I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure you can carry ‘presumed innocence’ too far. Besides, his lawyer probably *should* have told him how to dress as part of his job in this case, the guy wasn’t arrested for bitch slapping someone at a Mensa meeting, after all. — Charlie…

Response:

Peter Charles: I don’t know what our angling lawyers may think of this idea, but perhaps it would be appropriate in cases where a gross error by an officer of the court resulted in a costly delay or mistrial, that officer had to personally foot the bill for at least a portion of the court costs.  Might make some of the inattentive sit up and pay attention. Peter

Shoot, Peter.  Somehow I can not see our esteemed roffian lawyers fishing with K-Mart blue light specials!  It is blaspheme, I tell ya…….  <g Louie, who don’t need to stinkin’ lawy…..errrrr.   Don’t wanna burn bridges here……

Response:

What’s he going to say, Mark Furrmann(sp?) dressed him?

LOL.   YEAH! That’s it! No, this is a waste.  He was a) stupid enough to rob a store at gunpoint, for money, b) stupid enough to prove himself guilty (or is that guilty enough to prove himself stupid? – either way…)

Well, I gotta think he was convicted on a lot more than this dumb shirt.   His picture on the camera & I assume the eyewitness testimony of the clerk. Possibly fingerprints or other physical evidence.   However, your points above seem a circular argument.   He’s guilty because he has the shirt, and the shirt shouldn’t matter because he’s guilty anyway.   Frankly the shirt sounds like a red herring.   If counsel was otherwise competent and the evidence was otherwise conclusive, it does seem a waste of resources; but the rights of the accused are paramount in our system (that’s why Wayno can afford a T&T or two).   I like it that way in general, even when a specific case makes it difficult to remember. Joe F.

Response:

The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, that he wore on the video, robbing the store, and his counsel’s failure to object was "i.c."  Well, maybe, but two things come to mind:  Shouldn’t the obvious guilt matter?  Punish the attorney, perhaps, but how effectively _can_ one defend such a person?  And, this is exactly the ridiculousness in the system that gets "the average Joe and Jane" so upset.  Unless the attorney dressed this guy, our tax dollars get to pay for another trial for a guilty man. R

Response:

The 4th Court of Crim Appeals, SA,  has ordered a new trial on the grounds of "ineffective counsel."  It seems the defendant, accused of robbing a C-store, wore the same distinct shirt, with a picture of his dog, to voir dire, that he wore on the video, robbing the store, and his counsel’s failure to object was "i.c."  Well, maybe, but two things come to mind:  Shouldn’t the obvious guilt matter?  Punish the attorney, perhaps, but how effectively _can_ one defend such a person?  And, this is exactly the ridiculousness in the system that gets "the average Joe and Jane" so upset.  Unless the attorney dressed this guy, our tax dollars get to pay for another trial for a guilty man. R

True, it is very annoying to think of the wasted dollars and time involved but given the number of high profile cases being overturned by DNA evidence, (especially north of the border) where the quality of counsel was at best questionable, I think this is the price we have to pay to enshrine the concept in law. I don’t know what our angling lawyers may think of this idea, but perhaps it would be appropriate in cases where a gross error by an officer of the court resulted in a costly delay or mistrial, that officer had to personally foot the bill for at least a portion of the court costs.  Might make some of the inattentive sit up and pay attention. Peter

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Question:

Not to knock them, but they have a lower apeal after so many of them.

A real fish for once!   One day you too, will come to love those "Unreal Fish"  What a great morning to be alive!  Bruce Congratulations jim

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<snip a great story The second cast found the blues scattering violently as a dork figure surged from under the moss toward the cricket.

This is just begging for a joke. Nice story Qwezy.

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Finally got the bugger landed….my very first smallmouth bass (I think!) on a fly.  

It had to be a Largemouth. Well done. I’m far from a bass expert, but if I were you I’d try some poppers and other surface lures that are large enough that the bluegill can’t take them. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

as a dork figure surged from under the moss toward the cricket. This is just begging for a joke.

Well, hell…..that explains all the trouble with my casting today!  If I would Bruce

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Nice story QwezyR.  Thanks for providing the imagery that my day lacked and my mind desperately needed. Had to remember the posts about pulling back too hard on the line and/or pole…only an inch needed to anchor the hook

  One suggestion though, try using a fly rod instead of a pole when fly fishing.  You can cast a lot better with a fly rod than a pole.  HTH? Warren X#-[

Trout Dwellers Unite! Western Conclave Guru For info: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/sp_ROFF_people/wclave/wclave.html

Response:

Finally got the bugger landed….my very first smallmouth bass (I think!) on a fly.  

Congrats— But it was a largemouth…….As far as I know there are no smallmouths in the Orlando area, and unless there are some in the panhandle I don’t know about, none in Florida! Lloyd Heilbrunn Palm Beach Gardens, FL.

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I’ve been learning this fly fishing craft for about a year now…with little chance to catch anything other than bluegill.  Not to knock them, but they have a lower apeal after so many of them.  That all changed today for me.  Picture, A stereotypical lazy, dark, Oak/Spanish moss covered central Florida stream…black water, moss on the banks, other aquatic vegitation here and there, black, still waters.  My newfound favorite hole for the time being. Been stalking whatever may be in there for a couple weks now.  Even learned the value of not stepping on the resident gator’s favorite hole.  On my K-mart trip this week for diapers, I got the urge to pick up some new flies.  A nice box of terrestrials looked enticing. Armed with my newfound cricket, I approached a shallow cove in the stream, dark waters broken slightly by shafts of light through the oaks.  The first cast across the stream to the opposite bank of moss with the cricket drew some attention of the bluegills….no bite.  The second cast found the blues scattering violently as a dork figure surged from under the moss toward the cricket.  This is it, I thought….the moment for which I’ve been lurking in this news group…all the lessons and thoughts of others culminating in this one dark fugure heading to my fly.  BAM!!!!!!  Much harder strike than any bluegill I ever had on the line!  Had to remember the posts about pulling back too hard on the line and/or pole…only an inch needed to anchor the hook.  And off on a fun ride we went!  THIS is what it’s all about, I thought for the couple minutes I played the fish, hoping I don’t lose my first real one. Finally got the bugger landed….my very first smallmouth bass (I think!) on a fly.  About 10-12 inches long (I have no idea how much that size would weigh) God, how exhilerating.  A real fish for once!  I remembered my vow to keep and grill the first real fish I ever caught on that rod…and thought again, "No…I’ll meet you again, little fishy!  Maybe next time, but thanks for the fun today!" What a great morning to be alive! Bruce

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Question:

Last fall I had the good fortune of meeting a gentleman at a local craft fair in NH who had a 6′x6′ display of pictures of some amazing size fish that he had caught. I guessed he was a hunter and fisherman of some sort, but it turned out that he was a Bush Pilot for many years, taking people in and out of remote areas in Canada. He had pictures and pictures of 10+ pound brook trout and deer with simply huge racks. I was amazed. He said he had gone where few people ever get a chance to go in a lifetime, and he was bursting with excitement and pride when he told his stories. He had since stopped bush piloting, due to health concerns, but his dream is to once again get back into a plane, or at the very least help some people who need information about adverturing into these remote spots. The amazing pictures he showed me, reminded me of my childhood days when I used to go hiking and fishing in the remote mountain streams of Vermont and catch some wonderful spring brook trout myself. I understood why he was so excited to tell his stories. At the time, my girlfriend and I were putting together a website to sell Vermont products, and even though he is from NH, we agreed to help him promote his book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, through our site. If anyone is interested in Bush Piloting information or perhaps Mr. Laporte’s book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, you can send us an email, or visit our website. The book is accessible through a link on our site’s left sidebar. Mr. Laporte would be glad to share his bush piloting advice as well. Thanks, Rick and Susan Vermonters at heart! http://www.piecesofvermont.com Before you buy.

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Based on the topic, I’m going to share an experience I heard of a bush pilot. A friend and co-worker of mine was born and raised in Alaska.  He has his ASEL certificate and was constantly flying into hard to reach areas to do some serious hunting and fishing.  On one occasion, he landed on a sandbar in a nearly dried up river bed in order to hunt along the waterline.  Well, it so happens that the FAA somehow witnessed him landing there and cited him for not having the proper certificate to fly the model plane.  In other words, because he landed a river bed, the FAA cited him for flying a sea-plane without being certified for airplane, single engine sea.  But, the plane has was flying had wheels and was normally considered a "land plane." (I wish I could remember the actual plane.)  What are your impressions about being cited for operating a plane that you are certified to operate? Remember, it was a "land" plane and he landed on the dried river bed, not the water. — Sometimes opportunity pounds. Open the door; Link Below. http://www.rexall.com/nonprescriptionfortune Independent Business Owner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last fall I had the good fortune of meeting a gentleman at a local craft fair in NH who had a 6′x6′ display of pictures of some amazing size fish that he had caught. I guessed he was a hunter and fisherman of some sort, but it turned out that he was a Bush Pilot for many years, taking people in and out of remote areas in Canada. He had pictures and pictures of 10+ pound brook trout and deer with simply huge racks. I was amazed. He said he had gone where few people ever get a chance to go in a lifetime, and he was bursting with excitement and pride when he told his stories. He had since stopped bush piloting, due to health concerns, but his dream is to once again get back into a plane, or at the very least help some people who need information about adverturing into these remote spots. The amazing pictures he showed me, reminded me of my childhood days when I used to go hiking and fishing in the remote mountain streams of Vermont and catch some wonderful spring brook trout myself. I understood why he was so excited to tell his stories. At the time, my girlfriend and I were putting together a website to sell Vermont products, and even though he is from NH, we agreed to help him promote his book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, through our site. If anyone is interested in Bush Piloting information or perhaps Mr. Laporte’s book, Adventures of a Bush Pilot, you can send us an email, or visit our website. The book is accessible through a link on our site’s left sidebar. Mr. Laporte would be glad to share his bush piloting advice as well. Thanks, Rick and Susan Vermonters at heart! http://www.piecesofvermont.com Before you buy.

Response:

He never told me who actually spotted him landing, but Alaska does have alternating regulations on when you can take your game depending on the time of year. For example:  When bear hunting, most of the time after the kill, the hunter must skin, gut, and package the bear meat, but not take it with on the first day.  But, during spawning season, the bears eat so much fish that the meat tastes fishy, so you can take the meat the same day it was killed.  I’ve never hunted in Alaska, so I can’t get more specific than restating stories that my friend has told me. I’ll email him and see if I can get him into this newsgroup. — Sometimes opportunity pounds. Open the door; Link Below. http://www.rexall.com/nonprescriptionfortune Independent Business Owner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re kidding right?  The rating says nothing about where you land, only what equipment you can fly. Now, if it was Fish and Game that watched him and he took game "same day airborne" he could be in "a heap of trouble". — Dale L. Falk Cessna 182A N5912B http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

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You’re kidding right?  The rating says nothing about where you land, only what equipment you can fly. Now, if it was Fish and Game that watched him and he took game "same day airborne" he could be in "a heap of trouble". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Based on the topic, I’m going to share an experience I heard of a bush pilot. A friend and co-worker of mine was born and raised in Alaska.  He has his ASEL certificate and was constantly flying into hard to reach areas to do some serious hunting and fishing.  On one occasion, he landed on a sandbar in a nearly dried up river bed in order to hunt along the waterline.  Well, it so happens that the FAA somehow witnessed him landing there and cited him for not having the proper certificate to fly the model plane.  In other words, because he landed a river bed, the FAA cited him for flying a sea-plane without being certified for airplane, single engine sea.  But, the plane has was flying had wheels and was normally considered a "land plane." (I wish I could remember the actual plane.)  What are your impressions about being cited for operating a plane that you are certified to operate? Remember, it was a "land" plane and he landed on the dried river bed, not the water.

– Dale L. Falk Cessna 182A N5912B http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

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Question:

[snip] Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known. [snip] Is that really you, George – or is your shadow posting again? Didn’t you recently go ballistic over someone using fly gear with bait, George? Hypocrite, George??

_______HEY MAN, give me a little slack please. How can a boy be a hypocrite at the age of 12? George — MZ

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[snip] Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known.

[snip] Is that really you, George – or is your shadow posting again? Didn’t you recently go ballistic over someone using fly gear with bait, George? Hypocrite, George??

Response:

Steelhead in the Maumee River now?!!!  Along with the Walleye runs that have been showing up for the last 25 years?  I happen to know the Maumee River like no man alive.  I grew up on it.  Whitehouse, Waterville, Monclova, Ohio area.  Cat fishing there with a fly rod dead drifting a simple worm on the limestone shelves just below the dam at Waterville is probably some of the finest sport known.  Used to club carp there.  Has a lot of drop offs in order to get out there.  Ron Kinkaid in Whitehouse Ohio knows that area even better than me because he still fishes it and you forget things over the years.  The Maumee, named because a crying Indian baby at Turkey Foot Rock was whimpering ma-me, mau-me is how it was named . . . believe it or not.  All the General Anthony Wayne Signs are of my design and invention back in 1953 – 54.  The entire bust and hat and everything.  General Mad Anthony Wayne is the logo for Anthony Wayne High School where I graduated in 1954.  Went directly from H.S. into Flight Training for the U.S.A.F.  Was the first H.S. Graduate in the United States to qualify for fighter pilot school via Chanute Air Force Base in the United States.  I’m kind of proud of that Lee. Yah, I’m an old Buckeye Bronco from Ohio, you betcha!  Used to walk to school (Monclova Grade School) along Swan Creek everyday, even in the winter.  Loved it so.  Chuck Holloway still lives on that road along Swan Creek.  Good place to hunt Wood Duck when the season was in but now not so much as it is basically only a nesting area now, all the way down to Wreckerly Road and where the old county dump used to be, where I used to shoot rats with a .22 single shot.  Great sport!  Rat hunting. Lou Klewer, the ex-outdoor editor of the Toledo Blade lived on Wreckerly Road and I bought my first and most favorite rifle and caliber from Lou. A pre-64 Model 70 in the .220 Swift, which still is my most favorite of all calibers. If God said I had to settle for only one Rifle it would be the .220 Swift.  You betcha!  (Once again) Anyhow Lee, where in Toledo do you live?  I hope this post you aren’t bored with.  You just brought back memories.  I’ll be flying into Toledo Express this spring, a few more weeks or so away.  I have a brother living in Sylvania and Whitehouse, Ohio.  Plus, I always visit Ron Kinkaid.  He lives directly a cross the road from A.W. High School. Have to run Lee.  I knew there was something about you I liked. George Gehrke — MZ — MZ

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Question:

Hi I’m sure you will get good answers from this group but I notice you are on AOL. Check the fishing reports at keyword FBN. That may help as well. Happy Holidays. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 materials catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

The two bodies of water that I usually fish are the Rose River off of Skyline Drive and Mossy Creek in the Shenandoah Valley.  I’ve only fished dry flies and haven’t got the slightest idea on how to approach nymph fishing, for that matter what nymphs to fish.  I would venture to say that I’ve caught the bug and won’t let a little inclimate weather frighten me off.  Is this the right approach, or should I hang it up until the Spring?

No way, dude. When I lived in MD, I fished Big Hunting Creek in Thurmont 12 mos/yr. In fact, the bigest browns I caught in that great stream were both in Januarys.  Fished the typical nymphs: Hare’s Ear in brown and olive, Pheasant Tails, etc. Nothin fancy. Just fish ‘em deep with a sloooooow retrieve. I laid it right at the mouths of these fish and they couldn’t resist. Of course, when the water’s that cold, the fish aren’t very active, that is until they realize they have a hook in their kype. Another bennie: since you are a beginner (tho, who isn’t?), winter fishing gives you time to work on technique and most importantly, patience. Plus, there are fewer folks around to feel intimidated by. So stick with it. -cst

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Ditto CST–I’ll be on Big Hunting Creek tomorrow.  Nymphs are fine and streamers are also fine.  Nymph one way, then streamer yourself home.  I like a shockingly large brown or tan or olive and black bullet-head woolly bugger.  Big rainbows will eat those too;  and Mossy’s got some humongous brownies that love meat. Dave

Response:

I’m somewhat of a novice at fly fishing, but I wanted to get some input from the more experienced fly fishermen concerning winter fishing.  I’ve done some reading on fishing in the winter, but wanted to be armed with a little more info before I head out to freeze. The two bodies of water that I usually fish are the Rose River off of Skyline Drive and Mossy Creek in the Shenandoah Valley.  I’ve only fished dry flies and haven’t got the slightest idea on how to approach nymph fishing, for that matter what nymphs to fish.  I would venture to say that I’ve caught the bug and won’t let a little inclimate weather frighten me off.  Is this the right approach, or should I hang it up until the Spring?

Dave, There’s also a free magazine which is available at most of the VA fly shops which will lead you to the right patterns year round, and offers tips on winter fishing techniques in our state. Look for it at Orvis shops, Harry Murray’s place and others. Keith in Waterford, VA

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Hey Dave,        I went on Christmas day to a small brook trout stream on Catoctin Mt. and used a size 16 unweighted hares ear, a small split shot and a piece of orvis clay strike indicator and caught brookies on the edge of flowing water. I was fighting to keep the guides clear of ice and there wasn’t any casting room but it was a lot of fun.(very light tackle).I used a dead drift in combination with a line hand gather retrieve. They seemed to be more ready to take on the retrieve than the drift. Just fish near flowing water not really in it. Good luck, John

Response:

I’m somewhat of a novice at fly fishing, but I wanted to get some input from the more experienced fly fishermen concerning winter fishing.  I’ve done some reading on fishing in the winter, but wanted to be armed with a little more info before I head out to freeze.   The two bodies of water that I usually fish are the Rose River off of Skyline Drive and Mossy Creek in the Shenandoah Valley.  I’ve only fished dry flies and haven’t got the slightest idea on how to approach nymph fishing, for that matter what nymphs to fish.  I would venture to say that I’ve caught the bug and won’t let a little inclimate weather frighten me off.  Is this the right approach, or should I hang it up until the Spring?

Response:

Question:

what do you know about blue water fly fishing out of la paz, mexico?

Response:

what do you know about blue water fly fishing out of la paz, mexico?

All the Mexican Guides kill the fish. Mr. G.

Response:

Question:

Try the Pennyslvania Fly Fishing Site under the Tidbits Button. http://www.easetech.com/pafish/ Dave Kile

Response:

Try the Pennyslvania Fly Fishing Site under the Tidbits Button. http://www.easetech.com/pafish/ Dave Kile

Thanks for the info!! Fax:    +1.201.894.4650                                   CIS: 70410,3541

Response:

Are there any fly hatch charts for the NY/NJ/PA area somewhere on the net? Thanks! — Fax:    +1.201.894.4650                                   CIS: 70410,3541

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