Question:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Oh, she’s talking about water striders! I thought she was talking about midges. Kevin’s right. Water striders are toxic. I remember last year at the San Juan Clave there were lots of midges in the eddies and other slackwater, but the fish were ignoring them. I wondered why, and still do. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies? I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety.

Thank you.  That sounds right.  I know they’re not fast, as I’ve always been easily able to hand catch one.   — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  

I understood that these were just not a favorite food of trout…being that they’re as hard as peanuts.  In NJ, those and skating spiders are not eaten by trout in any waters that I know of.

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water? — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? I’m loving trying to do it for drys or surface lures, but I can’t bring myself to feel that anything but a really dead bug will drift fairly freely, and even that bug will bounce into and off of things, including the bottom if using an under surface fly / lure.

I kind of hate to post this, because I’m such a "fucking putz" at presenting nymphs compared to people like Willi and Bruce, but here’s my understanding of the theory. There’s something called the "turnover point." When you cast your nymph out, in the normal scheme of things, you should try to get your indicator upstream of the nymph. The current on the surface carries the indicator downstream faster than the deep-drifting nymph. Upstream mends can help, but you risk pulling the fly right out of the trouts’ mouths. There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover point. BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?  I don’t see them much in water where other varieties of decent sized game fish are around or else they stay so shallow that nothing big can get them.  Is it the Monarch butterfly sort of thing in the water?

Good question. I think it’s because trout are wary. They don’t want to expose themselves to predators in shallow water when there’s plenty of stuff to eat in safer places. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

There is a point — the "turnover" point — when the nymph is just below the indicator. This is when it’s doing its best rendition of a "dead drift." If you know where the fish are, try to make that the turnover

point. According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

Response:

According to Borger, the indicator is more of a drift indicator than strike indicator.  He says if your indicator is drifting as fast as the surface current and your nymph is near the bottom, your nymph is probably dragging. A split shot will help slow it down.  I suppose this would be past the "turnover point" you describe.

Even using the most thought out or "best" combination of weight, leader length etc. there will usually only be a small portion of your drift where the fly is truly approaching a dragfree drift. Like Steve said, you want to try and have this "good" part of the drift in the area that you think holds fish. The deeper the water, overall, the more pronounced this is. You can get more instances of a dragfree drift through mending, but because of the varied currents, it impossible to get a dragfree drift throughout the drift. It’s often difficult to get a dragfree drift with a dry fly. With a dry you can see what’s going on and with a dry, you’re essentially only dealing with a flat plane or two dimensions. With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph. Willi

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

Probably because they are too difficult for the trout to catch. They would experience a net loss in calories because of the energy expended in trying to catch them. Game fish are instinctively aware of the energy/food value relationship, and tend to feed accordingly. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

With a sunken nymph, in most situations, you have to make inferences about what’s going on with your fly and you’re dealing with three dimensions. MUCH more difficult but fortunately for us, I think the fish are more tolerant of drag with a nymph.

        and i suspect that this is because many of the insects we are attempting to imitate with nymphs are alive, and move upwards and from side to side as they attempt to reach the surface, as opposed to the nearly motionless float of duns and spinners. wayno (lifelong reader of field&stream)

Response:

BTW: why don’t trout eat those skittery little black bugs that hang out near shore and in eddies?

I read somewhere that they emit a mild toxin into the water which repels the fish.  They hang out in groups because then there is a higher concentration of the toxin, providing a higher level of safety. Kevin — Check out the Pike Clave Website: <http://www.misu.nodak.edu/~vang/PikeClave/

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10% Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.

    What I really meant to say was, 95% of the time I nymph I *really* try for a dead drift. The other 5% of the time is when I’m moving (stumbling) upstream, dragging the thing behind me, and some inconsiderate trout bites it.

Response:

Willi asks: What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for:

 Dries (over 90)  Nymphs ( not sure, probably most; 75?)  Wets (less than 10)  Streamers (less than 5) — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyoming

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. Nymphs: I’d like to think that ALL my fish hit during drag free drift but I think that’s impossible to do all the time. I’d rank it there around 75%. Wets: When I fish them, which isn’t that often, they are moving for sure. 25%. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch.

I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10%

I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

Response:

Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes.

A very fun hatch on the Clark Fork is a #14 olive caddis, a ‘green rock worm’, IIRC. A free-living caddis. Use a LaFontaine-style (God rest his soul) emerging caddis fished just under the surface film down and across or just straight down. If the fly is making a ‘V’ they don’t seem to want it. But if you get it to still be twitching & dragging, literally just under the surface, they wack it pretty hard. There is a particular hole on the CF that really can only best be fished with an almost straight down approach with this method, but right at dusk on a mid-July evening… oh boy! Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter?

I must amend to my streamer statement above that most of my streamer fishing is done from a boat. With a good oarsman at the helm, you can get some amazingly good presentations that can cover a lot of good water. — Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dries: definitely in the 90+% range during most mayfly hatches. During stonefly hatches, however, or even when I fish a hopper during terrestrial season, I twitch my fly when it’s drifting. Granted, I attempt for it to be subtle, and only a movement every couple of feet or so, but a lot of the hits come right at the twitch. I concur with this. Another "action" technique I especially like is skittering a caddis imitation through shallow, pocket water. Not sure if it is more effective than just a drag free drift but it sure produces some exciting takes. Streamers: Practically all my fish come during the strip or the swing. I do pick up fish occasionally during a drag-free drift but I don’t fish a streamer that often that way. 10% I’m not a very able streamer fisherman but I frequently cast up and across with a streamer and let it drift down pretty much drag free to allow it to sink. I have taken some fish during this "drag free" part of the drift. Peter? Willi

I rarely fish streamers on the dead drift though it can be a useful imitation of a dead or dying minnow with the right pattern.  I tried one day for steelhead using a small, weighted streamer on the dead drift and ended up with a bunch of bugle trout.  They obviously feed on the dead.  I’ve also had carp and smallies suck in streamers when I’ve been counting the fly down on the sink, while fishing in still water. I know that you know this Willi, but as a general comment  . . . About drag for dries, nymphs, and wets – I try to get the situation right for the insect that’s active.  One example – on Whiteman’s Creek, it was Hendrickson time but there was nothing in the air.  I was dead drifting a H. nymph by a log jam in fairly deep water and was batting a fat zero.  Then I remembered that Hendrickson nymphs migrate to shallow, slow water to hatch.  I was standing on the inside of a bend in shallow, slow water so I slowly retrieved my H. nymph along the bottom toward me and picked up a 12" rainbow on the first try.  A few more casts picked up some more fish.   Some mayfly nymphs and caddis pupae are very active swimmers and some mayfly emergers change into adult form a foot or so below the surface before swimming up with their wings (e.g. Dark Hendricksons.)  Many caddis do the same and with some species, the gas they generate causes them to rocket up.  As caddis have micro hairs on their wings they can fly off immediately on emergence whereas mayflies usually need to dry their wings first resulting in lots of fluttering.  Some caddis skitter across the surface before flying off and a few stillwater caddis will skate on the surface all the way to the shore.  When egg laying, some caddis and mayflies dap their eggs on the surface while other caddis and mayflies dive, penetrating the meniscus and laying their eggs on the bottom before swimming back up and flying off (or dying in the mayfly case.)  Small trout will often leap out of the water after dapping egg layers while others actively chase the divers. None of this behaviour can be imitated by a dead drift. Moral:  Know the behaviour of the bug.  Drag is not always your enemy – especially when it’s deliberate. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries Nymphs Wets Streamers My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20 Willi

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries … My estimates: Dries: 90

When people talk about "educated" fish, I think recognizing a dragfree drift is the piscine equivalent of the PhD. I also think it’s highly dependent on the particular watershed. Some places, relatively sterile mountain streams for instance, you can catch a fish with just about any sort of drift at all. On a heavily fished spring creek I’d say that the percentage of fish I take with a dragfree drift is for all intents and purposes 100%. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

Well, IMO, the term "drag free" drift is the wrong term to use for _teaching_ beginners, although _presenting_ in such fashion, is, to me, different than _fishing_ a fly, even if the take occurs within a second or two of presentation.  What is important as to _fishing_ is to not appear so unnatural as to either confuse, and therefore, "spook," a fish or simply telegraph that an offering isn’t food. Granted, this often means no unnatural drag, which is often "drag free" and likely, most experienced fishers know this and use the term "drag free" as a catch-all term.  But I think it does beginners a disservice to teach absolutes (take "the wrist must always be locked or you are casting improperly" training many get, for example) as being an absolute success/failure type of situation. What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: My estimates: Dries: 90 Nymphs: 80 Wets: 50 Streamers: 20

Hmm…I thought a little about it, and I can’t come up with any numbers beyond mere WAGs.  Maybe to my detriment, I don’t seem to take note of this type of data in such a way to be able to quantify it. I’m not suggesting that doing so is improper, just that I don’t.  Or maybe I do take subconscious note, but it has become one of those "I don’t know why I do it that way, I just do" things.   But if forced to make a WAG, I’d say dries, about like your number, wets, about 80-90, and streamers, upwards of 0, but less than 10 <G (simply due to the way I <mostly fish streamers, they wouldn’t be doing much "drifting," drag-free or otherwise, as I take your meaning of "drifting.") TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Willi

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries  

have to say 99%  Worked dries are a minor tactic for me. Nymphs  

couldn’t possibly tell with the deep nymphs, but certainly to shallow sighted fish 100% Wets

70% Streamers

10% Steve

Response:

What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers

     10%

Response:

What percentage of fish do you take during a "dragfree" drift for: Dries       95% Nymphs       95% Wets       40% Streamers      10%

Your percentage for nymphs is surprising to me.  Do you usually let them swing across at the end of the dragfree part of the drift?  I take many fish on nymphs, especially BH PTs, on the rising part of the swing–almost as many as when I fish traditional wets (soft hackles, etc.) this way.   JR

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable? My estimates: Nymphs: 80

The more I think about nymphing, the harder it is to believe that a drag free drift happens very often.  Think how difficult it can be with dry flies – in 2 dimensions.  Nymphing is in 3 dimensions, so the problems you have with a dry fly drift are magnified.  Finally, add in the fact that the water slows near the bottom of the river where we often fish nymphs, and it’s a wonder we ever catch a fish. I conclude 2 things: – we are not always getting a drag free drift, but many nymphs do move around under water under their own power.  Sometimes drag simulates this. – there are so many swirling currents in "mixed water" (near bottom rocks and obstructions), that even the trout can’t always detect drag underwater.  Even natural nymphs move in randomly changing ways in some of the "micro currents". There must be places where the flow is constant and trout can detect drag, but there must be places where it’s not, too.  You can probably convince yourself of this by tossing little things into turbulent water several times and watching how they drift differently each time.

Response:

One of the first hurdles a beginer needs to clear is to learn how to present a fly on a dead drift. It’s a very important skill but how often is it necessary or even desirable?

An interesting question, and one I have no idea of the answer.   One thing RDean said tweaked my though process however, and I began thinking not in terms of drag, but time as measurement.   I’m actually amazed at how many of the fish I catch hit the fly within a couple seconds of it hitting the water.   That probably means I suck at drag free drift.   I’m also amazed at how fast the fish can get there.   Unless I’m dropping it right on his nose, those guys really cover some ground, so to speak.   On occasions where flows are simple enough, I do catch some farther down the drift, but generally if I don’t have a take in the first 5 sec., I’m not going to get one. Joe F.

Response:

Question:

I am most definitely interested; but be advised it can approach "combat fishing" during the height of the run, especially at the well-known holes. E-mail me your address & I’ll snail mail you a couple simple shad flies that produce well.   You can tie these things in your sleep.   Late April, early May is the time to go.   I’d definitely recommend a sink tip line over full sink or split shot.   4 wt to 6 wt. is fine.   It’d be a great time to hook up w/ you again.   The guys at the Edge are usually up on the latest status of the run when the time comes. Joe F.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one up for a mini-clave (excuse for a single day out) for the shad run?  I’ve never tackled these slimey buggers and would like some local assistance in my first attempt.  Should start tying now as I don’t think these things will be eating the same munchies that we’re planning for the Penn clave. I have no idea on where to go or what tackle to bring.  I’ll host if some one can give me some particulars and guide.           Frank Reid

Response:

Any one up for a mini-clave (excuse for a single day out) for the shad run?  I’ve never tackled these slimey buggers and would like some local           Frank Reid

Frank, Frank, Frank…..I hate to sound like a broken record, especially since my fish of preference is trout, but I can spot a bus load of fishermen on the Rappahannock, at the right spot, on the right day (actually night), and let you catch Hickory and American shad until you tire and beg for mercy.  Fly of choice will be #8 Clouser in pink/white. Plan on being there at the end of April and we can fill up on chili and beer before we slide over the couple hundred yards to the river. The occasional big striper keeps the small rod (6 wt.) users on their toes. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Which reminds me, if anyone is on their way from the South on the way to the Penn. Clave and wants to stop off in Fredericksburg on the way, the shad run is slowing down, 2nd striper run getting underway, smallmouth fishing heating up BIG TIME, and you will have to drive less than 5 miles off I-95. Frank has some great waters for shad in Maryland and a late April shad Clave for the day would be a hoot. — Wayne (Penn. Clave still up in the air for me) To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Frank, Frank, Frank…..I hate to sound like a broken record, especially since my fish of preference is trout, but I can spot a bus load of fishermen on the Rappahannock, at the right spot, on the right day (actually night), and let you catch Hickory and American shad until you tire and beg for mercy.

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne…   As great as the Rapp may be, the Susquehanna and Deer Creek are but 20 minutes from my door (and probably Lou T. as well), and less than an hour for Frank.   Plus, it doesn’t require another license purchase.   I’ll definitely be down for the smallies in August, but I’ll most likely support my local shad.  :-) Joe F. Then again, Easter weekend falls near the beginning of the run, and a family camping trip might be arranged.  "Hey hon, how about we try someplace to the south, say along the Rappahannock in Virginia?   What, the shad run is on? I had no idea!"  :-)   Give me a town name for reference.

Response:

Then again, Easter weekend falls near the beginning of the run, and a family camping trip might be arranged.  "Hey hon, how about we try someplace to the south, say along the Rappahannock in Virginia?   What, the shad run is on? I had no idea!"  :-)   Give me a town name for reference.

I would try to slip up there and fish for Md. shad if you do a shad- calve.  They are smaller and not as pretty as Va. shad but it would be fun anyway! The Va. shad festival begins about Easter weekend this year with the nearest town being Fredericksburg.  Campgrounds nearby both ways, upriver at the begining of smallmouth season or close to I-95.  When the (*&%&^#$% mail server comes back up at my home e-mail account I’ll tell you EXACTLY which town and which hole to fish in. — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine!

Response:

Any one up for a mini-clave (excuse for a single day out) for the shad run?

Okay, now you have me thinking about it, so I have to ask.   If we do a one-day thing, a week day would be better crowd-wise.   Among those who migh make it, would a Friday be good?   I’ll start some prelim looks into campgrounds (Susquehanna SP is close, but alcohol is probably a no-no) and/or other arrangements.   Might even talk SWMBO into hosting you reprobates for an afternoon cookout or something. Joe F.

Response:

The top fly for shad in the MD area is a red over yellow streamer tied with marabou, attributed by some to Joe Bruce.  Use a long shank streamer and you can grab the hook by the eye; give it a quick turn; and release the fish without lifting it from the water or touching it.  Other two color marabou streamers are also used but IMHO, if they’re not biting on the red and yellow, they’re not likely to hit on anything.  Six weight rods are the most popular.  I use up to 4s when fishing Yellowstone NP, but always use a 6 for shad.  Two other important things are: 1. use enough weight to get the fly down and 2. The water temp has to be above (?).  I forget the temp so one of you others can fill in the blank.  I use a length of lead core line as weight. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one up for a mini-clave (excuse for a single day out) for the shad run?  I’ve never tackled these slimey buggers and would like some local assistance in my first attempt.  Should start tying now as I don’t think these things will be eating the same munchies that we’re planning for the Penn clave. I have no idea on where to go or what tackle to bring.  I’ll host if some one can give me some particulars and guide.           Frank Reid

Response:

If you’re looking to set a date, The best days for shad fishing that I’ve had in previous years locally (Deer Creek and an unmentioned stream) have been around 1 May.  However some years the runs vary a bit.  If the shad aren’t hitting, it’s also the time for stocked trout in nearby streams. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any one up for a mini-clave (excuse for a single day out) for the shad run?  I’ve never tackled these slimey buggers and would like some local assistance in my first attempt.  Should start tying now as I don’t think these things will be eating the same munchies that we’re planning for the Penn clave. I have no idea on where to go or what tackle to bring.  I’ll host if some one can give me some particulars and guide.           Frank Reid

Response:

If you’re looking to set a date, The best days for shad fishing that I’ve had in previous years locally (Deer Creek and an unmentioned stream) have been around 1 May.  However some years the runs vary a bit.  If the shad aren’t hitting, it’s also the time for stocked trout in nearby streams. Lou

I vote May 4, Frank R. Clavemeister, Joe Beermeister, Lou Flymeister. — Wayne ( attendee-in-training) To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

The top fly for shad in the MD area is a red over yellow streamer tied with marabou, attributed by some to Joe Bruce.

Absolutely.   And a gold or silver tinsel body.   (I got mine from Joe’s shop, but didn’t know he invented them.  FWIW, Joe B. adds a single short strand of red thread as a tail, but it probably makes no difference.) I use a length of lead core line as weight

Give me a few details on that.   I always use the sink tip, and I have ST lines for both my 6 wt. and son’s 4 wt., but if I take the whole fam damily this year, I dont want to be buying a couple more ST lines for a one-time excursion. Joe F. p.s.   You ever going to let me know about those meetings? <g

Response:

I vote May 4, Frank R. Clavemeister, Joe Beermeister, Lou Flymeister.

May 4 is coincidentally the first weekend the nearby SP is open for camping. Still haven’t checked on the alcohol regs there.   There’s plenty of hotels/motels nearby also, should the need arise.   We’ll be very close to Edgewood Arsenal (military base), & there’s a healthy hospitality biz surrounding that.   No, not *that* kind of hospitality (though I wouldn’t be surprised.) Joe F.

Response:

May 4 is coincidentally the first weekend the nearby SP is open for camping. Still haven’t checked on the alcohol regs there.

The good news is – alcohol is allowed in the park.   Drinking at campsites, picnic tables, etc. is allowed.   Not on trails or parking lots, and loud and obnoxious behavior will result in expulsion (could be a problem there). Based on that, it’s proximity to the river, and the success of the RRR arrangement, I’ll recommend Susquehanna SP as Clave Central for the day. Further, I’ll volunteer for the Clavemeister duties (hell, I might even do hats).   Also, for those who do not have or do not wish to bring camping gear, there are several small cabins (keyword: small) that will get a comfortable roof over your head for a night or two. I will do this:   I’ll reserve a "cabin" and several adjacent sites (as insulation).   If you *think* you might attend and want to arrive Thursday night or stay over Friday, let me know asap.   For anyone coming from a distance, I’d recommend Thursday night; pre-dawn is the best time on the river. As the date approaches, I’ll offer more details e.g. driving directions, lodging, etc. as needed. Joe F.

Response:

Based on that, it’s proximity to the river, and the success of the RRR arrangement, I’ll recommend Susquehanna SP as Clave Central for the day. Further, I’ll volunteer for the Clavemeister duties (hell, I might even do hats).   Also, for those who do not have or do not wish to bring camping gear, there are several small cabins (keyword: small) that will get a comfortable roof over your head for a night or two.

For details on the park & a pic of the cabins: http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/central/susquehanna.html Joe F.

Response:

For details on the park & a pic of the cabins: http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/central/susquehanna.html Joe F.

Things are looking real promising for me to attend.  I’ll possibly come up after the beltway mania dies out. — Wayne To Fish is Human….To Release Divine!

Response:

Harford County Fly Anglers mets first Tuesday of the month at the Churchville Center.  I’ll post a reminder for the Feb meeting. Lou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The top fly for shad in the MD area is a red over yellow streamer tied with marabou, attributed by some to Joe Bruce. Absolutely.   And a gold or silver tinsel body.   (I got mine from Joe’s shop, but didn’t know he invented them.  FWIW, Joe B. adds a single short strand of red thread as a tail, but it probably makes no difference.) I use a length of lead core line as weight Give me a few details on that.   I always use the sink tip, and I have ST lines for both my 6 wt. and son’s 4 wt., but if I take the whole fam damily this year, I dont want to be buying a couple more ST lines for a one-time excursion. Joe F. p.s.   You ever going to let me know about those meetings? <g

Response:

Ok.  Joe, seems like you got things handled (your neck of the woods shall we say) and that weekend sounds great.  If some one would like to get our hats from the Susquehanna Hat Company, then we’ll be set. I can get a pot of chili for lunch and rig a sign.      Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – May 4 is coincidentally the first weekend the nearby SP is open for camping. Still haven’t checked on the alcohol regs there. The good news is – alcohol is allowed in the park.   Drinking at campsites, picnic tables, etc. is allowed.   Not on trails or parking lots, and loud and obnoxious behavior will result in expulsion (could be a problem there). Based on that, it’s proximity to the river, and the success of the RRR arrangement, I’ll recommend Susquehanna SP as Clave Central for the day. Further, I’ll volunteer for the Clavemeister duties (hell, I might even do hats).   Also, for those who do not have or do not wish to bring camping gear, there are several small cabins (keyword: small) that will get a comfortable roof over your head for a night or two. I will do this:   I’ll reserve a "cabin" and several adjacent sites (as insulation).   If you *think* you might attend and want to arrive Thursday night or stay over Friday, let me know asap.   For anyone coming from a distance, I’d recommend Thursday night; pre-dawn is the best time on the river. As the date approaches, I’ll offer more details e.g. driving directions, lodging, etc. as needed. Joe F.

Response:

Any one up for a mini-clave (excuse for a single day out) for the shad run?  I’ve never tackled these slimey buggers and would like some local assistance in my first attempt.  Should start tying now as I don’t think these things will be eating the same munchies that we’re planning for the Penn clave. I have no idea on where to go or what tackle to bring.  I’ll host if some one can give me some particulars and guide.           Frank Reid

Response:

Question:

Traditional wet flies were fished relatively shallow.  This was because it was difficult to get them to sink very far. This is no longer a problem, and you can fish them at any depth. TL MC — "In order to achieve what is possible, one must constantly attempt the impossible" http://www.mikeconnor.de

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film? thanks, Bob

Response:

Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film?

Yes.   They can also be fished bouncing along the surface on a dropper. There is no "wrong" way to fish them. With the exception of a resurgence in the popularity of wet hackles, traditional wet flies are not very popular. Once in a great while I’ll run into an "old timer" fishing a trio of woven "Mite" flies. Willi

Response:

Which can be just the perfect reason to try them. Normally I hardly follow the patterns as described in books, but I make an exception for some traditionals. I just love tying and fishing a Peter Ross or Alexandra, or an Invicta for that matter. For me there’s something special in using these old patterns. Whenever I tie one on, I can’t help but think of some guy a hundred odd years back, pondering over his flywallet and making the same choice as I just did. And you know what? They still work. Peter Ross has helped me out more than once, the only reason I didn’t tie them for the swap is that they take too much time (for me, that is) to make two dozen of them. Herman

<snip With the exception of a resurgence in the popularity of wet hackles, traditional wet flies are not very popular. Once in a great while I’ll run into an "old timer" fishing a trio of woven "Mite" flies. Willi

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

– I just love tying and fishing a Peter Ross or Alexandra, or an Invicta for that matter. For me there’s something special in using these old patterns. Whenever I tie one on, I can’t help but think of some guy a hundred odd years back, pondering over his flywallet and making the same choice as I just did. And you know what? They still work. Peter Ross has helped me out more than once, the only reason I didn’t tie them for the swap is that they take too much time (for me, that is) to make two dozen of them.

I know just what you mean Herman. I remember the first time I was shown a fly box full of traditional wet flies: Alexandras, Peter Rosses, Butchers, Mallards & Claret and Dunkelds, etc. (I had never seen jungle cock before). That was over 35 years ago, but I still love the look of them and give them a wetting once in a while. It’s amazing how often an old traditional will sometimes deliver, when I (and others) am struggling with more modern patterns. I like the Peter Ross, too, but there is a curious thing here: the late, great, Dick Walker claimed he had never (try as he might) caught a fish on one. I’ve had stacks of fish on it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all. There’s also another side to this, of course. Two fishermen, A and B: A: ‘Any luck?’ B: ‘Yes, but they’re selective. Only take small bwo imitions.’ A: ‘What are you using?’ B: ‘Small bwo imitations. Never fish anything else around here..’ In other words, you catch fish with the fly you fish with, not with the flies in the box. If someone tells me some patterns don’t work, I always want to know if he/she ever really tried it. But then again, who am I to doubt Dick Walker.. Herman

<snip I like the Peter Ross, too, but there is a curious thing here: the late, great, Dick Walker claimed he had never (try as he might) caught a fish on one. I’ve had stacks of fish on it! Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Two fishermen, A and B: A: ‘Any luck?’ B: ‘Yes, but they’re selective. Only take small bwo imitions.’ A: ‘What are you using?’ B: ‘Small bwo imitations. Never fish anything else around here..’

LOL Yes, I know what you mean! These things can be self-fulfilling. I was talking to Moc Morgan a few years ago. He was telling me that, at one time, the group of waters he wrote reports on for a fishing magazine had 85% of ALL trout caught on one pattern – the ‘Cat’s Whisker’. Sure, it’s one of the deadliest lures ever invented for rainbow trout, but if everyone is using it -practically to the exclusion of every/any other pattern ….that’s the one that will be catching the fish. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Response:

I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all.

I’ve never heard of the Peter Ross being mentioned anywhere in any American fly fishing publication.  In the photos of it it that I have seen in European magazines however, I have seen ones that looked like a slightly bushy wet fly and others that looked almost like a streamer. Post your recipe and a picture.  I’m curious. Mu

Response:

Hi Mu, There is a considerable selection of "Peter Rosses" on my site. The standard classic tie, and several variations. TL MC — "Humour is a great comfort in adversity" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all. I’ve never heard of the Peter Ross being mentioned anywhere in any American fly fishing publication.  In the photos of it it that I have seen in European magazines however, I have seen ones that looked like a slightly bushy wet fly and others that looked almost like a streamer. Post your recipe and a picture.  I’m curious. Mu

Response:

Never heard of them? Impossible. I’ll add one in the swap flies mailing, I’ll have to tie some classics for Frank anyway. Herman I’ve heard this before. Either the Peter Ross works for you, or not at all. I’ve never heard of the Peter Ross being mentioned anywhere in any American fly fishing publication.  In the photos of it it that I have seen in European magazines however, I have seen ones that looked like a slightly bushy wet fly and others that looked almost like a streamer. Post your recipe and a picture.  I’m curious. Mu

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

cross posted from ROFF, There is a considerable selection of "Peter Rosses" on my site. The standard classic tie, and several variations.

http://www.mikeconnor.de/Flies/Classic_Flies/classic_flies.html Ahh.  The little hint about moistening the wing in order to produce that appearance clears up some of my confusion.  I had been wondering if there was a special technique in getting tapered wings of teal.   Is there an acceptable substitute for crimson seal fur?  How about Ruby Red Lite Brite? Mu

Response:

In article <Pine.SOL.4.10.10006011058580.8298- acceptable substitute for crimson seal fur?  How about Ruby Red Lite Brite?

I find if I use the fur quickly after I club the seal, it is still a crimson color.  Otherwise it turns kind of rusty brown. If there are no seals near you, try African goat. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hi Mu, Mohair, wool, and a host of various synthetics may be used.  Antron mixed with wool works very well too. I am not familiar with "Lite Brite", but assume it will work OK as well. TL MC — "Humour is a great comfort in adversity" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – cross posted from ROFF, There is a considerable selection of "Peter Rosses" on my site. The standard classic tie, and several variations. http://www.mikeconnor.de/Flies/Classic_Flies/classic_flies.html Ahh.  The little hint about moistening the wing in order to produce that appearance clears up some of my confusion.  I had been wondering if there was a special technique in getting tapered wings of teal. Is there an acceptable substitute for crimson seal fur?  How about Ruby Red Lite Brite? Mu

Response:

Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film?

Hello, I’m new to the group, but not the sport.  Thought I might dive in with this.  I love fishing wet flies.  I find them more effective than nymphs in a lot of conditions.  Traditionaly the wet fly is fished in a downstream arc and is one of the few times where drag is an advantage.   I usually start with a partridge and XXX with a brass bead tied on behind the hackle and, depending on the water weight the line with lead.   I cast upstream and fish it like a nymph so it sinks quite a bit, then begin lifting the fly through the water column as it swings through a downstream arc.  This way, you often get a fish when the fly is dropping or bouncing on the bottom or when begining the emerger phase of the run.   This has proven deadly when hatches are just starting or when nothing seems to be happening on the river.  The other advantage is that wet fly fishing is one of the few techniques where you can feel the fish hit the fly, this allows me to look around a bit and watch what develops on the stream while fishing.  Usually I’ll fish a nymph for a while then switch to a wet fly when I see some insect activity on the water.  I’ll fish the wet in the above "emerger" style well after a hatch has started and won’t switch to dries until I can see lots (and I mean lots) of surface activity on the part of the fish.  I think many I fish with switch to dries much too quickly at even the slightest hint of a hatch and end up wasting time as the fish are usually not feeding on the surface until (depending on the bugs) well after the hatch develops.   Switching to wets as a intermediate step allows me plenty of time to watch and learn how the fish are responding to the hatch. I’ve also had great luck taking nymph patterns that are popular on a particular river and tying a partridge hackle on and fishing them in this manner. Russell

Response:

(snip) I’ve also had great luck taking nymph patterns that are popular on a particular river and tying a partridge hackle on and fishing them in this manner. Russell

        as a matter of fact, some of the veteran local smoky mtn tiers tend to tie their "nymphs" in just that fashion.           specific reference is made to bennie joe craig of waynesville, nc., who is probably better known to the denizens of roff as the grandfather of the incomparable laurie, of bryson city fame. wayno

Response:

Hello: When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film? thanks, Bob

Response:

When fishing a traditional wet fly (not a nymph or streamer): are they usually fished deep, or in, or just below, the surface film? thanks, Bob

Depends on the fly. If it’s tied sparse it will stay just below or in the film.  If it’s tied heavy like a Picket Pin or Hornberg it will sink some. Cast it across and down stream. Allow it to drift straight below you. Swim it back up in 1 or 2 inch strips. Also, cast it across and mend line down stream to allow fly to sink more. Just before it goes straight below you raise rod to imitate emerging insect. Another thing to try is cast down stream and strip it back fast allowing it to bounce in the fast water. Fish have been known to leap out at it. Havr fun. Joel Axelrad

Response:

Question:

Call the Blacktail Ranch near Wolf Creek Montana.

Or Dick Klick up at Augusta.  Don’t remember the name of the place, but it’s up against the Bob.  You’ll not find more beautiful country, the cutts in the Sun river are multitudinous and "unsophisticated," horse back and hot springs are at your disposal and the further you’re willing to go into the wilderness, the bigger and better the fish.  Plus you won’t have the hordes you’ll have down in the Madison/Paradise Vallies.

Response:

Call the Blacktail Ranch near Wolf Creek Montana.  It is a working cattle ranch with excellent fishing in a small stream and in a series of beaver ponds with big trout.  You can choose a camping option that is very reasonable.  If you want to fish big water you can go to the Missouri and hire a guide to fish down from Hardy Bridge.  It is my favorite part of Montana. Ted Lannan

Response:

Here’s a wide open question: I have the opportunity to go fishing with two old friends in July or August pretty much anywhere out West.  I have fly fished for quite a while but my two friends have never done it at all.  I have the idea that a lodge with guides etc which has some "easy" water nearby (a casting pond with trout) as well as some more challenging rivers nearby would be ideal. We’re in good shape and can hike a bit I have looked through Sports Afield’s Guide to Fishing Lodges, the Orvis catalog, done web searched etc and I am totally bewildered by the sheer number of lodges. I am interested in comments/recommendations on lodges – as well as any other ideas (e.g. float trips).  Our budget is not huge, but we can spend some money this one time. Thanks for the help, Patrick Keith-Hynes

Response:

Question:

(GSWheaton) writes: Can anyone suggest a good guide / charter service in Panama?  I’ll be there for several days in late January, and I’d like to do some fishing, preferably on the Pacific side.

The best fishing lodges are in remote parts of Panama and only book full week trips, and they are most likely all booked for January by now. However, there is a new land based operation based on Coiba Island that will book as few as two days at around $2000 per person, complete. Another choice would probably be to go to Contadora Island. You can book a charter at the yacht club there, but the fishing isn’t what you expect when you think of Panama. Capt Gene Kelly Tropical Fishing Adventures

Response:

Can anyone suggest a good guide / charter service in Panama?  I’ll be there for several days in late January, and I’d like to do some fishing, preferably on the Pacific side.

Response:

Can anyone suggest a good guide / charter service in Panama?  I’ll be there for several days in late January, and I’d like to do some fishing, preferably on the Pacific side.

There are at least two famous saltwater operations I’m aware of that book week long trips.  Try Tropic Star Lodge (Pinas Bay) at http://www.tropicstar.com/index.html or Coiba Explorer at http://tucson.com/fishing/  Tropic Star often fills up early though, check the available dates on the web site. Tropic Star is a deluxe fly-in lodge and more world records have been set there than any other locale (according to their brochure anyway).  It’s famous mostly for light-tackle billfish and pelagics off the Zane Grey reef.  Coiba is a live-aboard operation and has perhaps more variety with plenty of inshore exotics as well as good offshore fishing at Hannibal Banks (and other reefs). Both are expensive. We fished Tropic Star last winter when fishing was supposedly poor due to the El Nino but still caught 5 marlin and a couple sails.  Friends of ours fished Coiba a few weeks later and caught many smaller fish but only a couple of sails, no marlin.  Usually better than that at either place.  Hope so as we’re going back this winter I just saw an ad in Marlin Mag for a new land-based operation at Coiba as well run by Tom Yust, who set up the original Coiba mothership deal (I was told). He advertises ‘flexible 2-7 day itineraries’ and has a 31 ft Bertram, and might be a good fit for you if you can’t fish an entire week.   He’s at 800-800-0907. Good luck, it’s an adventure down there. Bill Hilton

Response:

Question:

I am considering a 4-piece Legend 4 or 5-weight. I would be grateful if anybody have some experiences or knowledge to share. The rod is not marketed in Norway, so it is difficult for me to test it personally. Grateful for any comments Jan Erik Frithjofsen

Response:

I am considering a 4-piece Legend 4 or 5-weight. I would be grateful if anybody have some experiences or knowledge to share. The rod is not marketed in Norway, so it is difficult for me to test it personally. Grateful for any comments Jan Erik Frithjofsen

Hi Jan, I’ve found all of the St Croix fly rod to be very good including the 4 piece rods.  I’ve cast several of the their 4 piece rods and liked them but I never paid much attention to the actual name. Sorry! — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (97 catalog) http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

Response:

I am considering a 4-piece Legend 4 or 5-weight. I would be grateful if anybody have some experiences or knowledge to share. The rod is not marketed in Norway, so it is difficult for me to test it personally. Grateful for any comments Jan Erik Frithjofsen

Hi Jan,  I own 2 St Croix flyrods, a 2pc 7′ 3wt, and because I was so impressed with that one, I bought their Imperial Series 4pc 5/6wt. In my opinion, they are a "best buy" for the money. The Legend you ask about is their top-end fly rod, a little more expensive than the Imperial Series. I also own 5 Sage rods, so I have a fair basis for comparison. Considering the cost of a Sage, unless you absolutely have to have the best, the St Croix is the better buy. Now all you have to decide is whether you like the action of the rod. The Legend has a fast action (44 million modulus) while the Imperial is listed as a moderate action (42 mil mod) The difference in price between the Imperial and Legend travel rods is $135 vs $220. BTW, my 5/6 travel rod handled some very tough smallmouth bass this summer with no problems. It rides in my pickup truck behind the seat everywhere I go. Tight lines……. Frank Church Elkhart, IN —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am considering a 4-piece Legend 4 or 5-weight. I would be grateful if anybody have some experiences or knowledge to share. The rod is not marketed in Norway, so it is difficult for me to test it personally. Grateful for any comments Jan Erik Frithjofsen Hi Jan,  I own 2 St Croix flyrods, a 2pc 7′ 3wt, and because I was so impressed with that one, I bought their Imperial Series 4pc 5/6wt. In my opinion, they are a "best buy" for the money. The Legend you ask about is their top-end fly rod, a little more expensive than the Imperial Series. I also own 5 Sage rods, so I have a fair basis for comparison. Considering the cost of a Sage, unless you absolutely have to have the best, the St Croix is the better buy. Now all you have to decide is whether you like the action of the rod. The Legend has a fast action (44 million modulus) while the Imperial is listed as a moderate action (42 mil mod) The difference in price between the Imperial and Legend travel rods is $135 vs $220. BTW, my 5/6 travel rod handled some very tough smallmouth bass this summer with no problems. It rides in my pickup truck behind the seat everywhere I go. Tight lines……. Frank Church Elkhart, IN —

A correction to my post…the Imperial rods are 33 million modulus, not 42 as stated previously. Frank Church Elkhart, IN —

Response:

Question:

        Will be fishing in the Smokey Mountian park week of Nov. 10th . Any information on good patterens or methods would be of great help.

Response:

   Will be fishing in the Smokey Mountian park week of Nov. 10th . Any information on good patterens or methods would be of great help.

Check out LJ Decuir’s page at : http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ldecuir/default.html Won’t be much in the way of hatches.  Stick to large weighted nymphs. –Rich

Response:

Question:

I am planning a trip to the Dordogne region of southern France in June of this year, and would appreciate any information regarding fly fishing in that area.   post via this news group, or contact me via email (preferable) at Thanks in advance

Response:

craig: Check out the following article by Barry Thornton in the Online Gillie at Flyfishers Online (www.flyfishers.com). Fly Fishing the Famous Doubs River in France! – Oct, 1996 Enjoy, PFY I am planning a trip to the Dordogne region of southern France in June of this year, and would appreciate any information regarding fly fishing in that area. post via this news group, or contact me via email (preferable) at Thanks in advance

– Peter Yoakum eChannel, Inc. 206 727 2702 206 727 2718 (fax)

Response:

Question:

I have a customer going to Bend, Oregon, from June 10 to 14th. I’d appreciate any information anyone could supply regarding fly-fishing opportunities. Please e-mail me directly. Thanks in advance. Jim McKay Henry Weston Outfitters

Response:

I have a customer going to Bend, Oregon, from June 10 to 14th. I’d appreciate any information anyone could supply regarding fly-fishing opportunities. Please e-mail me directly. Thanks in advance. Jim McKay Henry Weston Outfitters

There is a great book on fishing Oregon." Harry Teel’s No Nonsense Guide To Fly Fishing Central & Southeastern Oregon". Published and distributed by David Marketing Communications, 6171 Tollgate, Sisters, Oregon, 97759.  It has all the good spots and has lots of info. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know if you can fly to Karluk and just camp on the beach there and fish?  There is a lodge there; I wonder if they have any monopoly on fishing in the Karluk river. This is on the southwest coast of Kodiak Island, in Alaska. Appreciate any feedback anyone can give.  

Response:

I would always be careful about camping on the beach in any location where there are substantial numbers of brown bears.  You can fly into Brooks River, for example, and camp in a USFS camp site as well as stay at the lodge.  But in the camp site, just a little way off the beach, all the food has to be cached.  And all the fish have to be cleaned in a single building, far away from the camp site. I’d check with locals on the available faciltiies at Karluk river.

04:57:08 GMT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know if you can fly to Karluk and just camp on the beach there and fish?  There is a lodge there; I wonder if they have any monopoly on fishing in the Karluk river.

Response:

| | Does anyone know if you can fly to Karluk and just camp on the beach | there and fish?  There is a lodge there; I wonder if they have any | monopoly on fishing in the Karluk river. | Hello, I was on the Karluk for a week this fall. Drifted to the mouth and camped on the beach. There are bears (big bears !) and you do need to be careful. Limited cabins (primitive) are availble at Portage. The real monopoly if you want to call it that is access. Very interesting and productive river. Regards, Jeff

Response: