Question:

I haven’t fished them yet; but I’m from Long Island originally, and when I visit the family this summer I will definitely fish one or both of these streams.  I’ve reached the point in my life when I realize that there are few trips that can’t be extended a day to fish a few hours. Growing up in Brentwood on Long Island, I was mentally a million miles away from fly fishing for trout.  It’s only from the vantage point of 900 miles away that I see the opportunities on Long Island. Keep your rod tip up. Memphis Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone fishes these streams please let me know. I’ve been fishing them on and off for years with mostly poor results. I do better on the Ausable. Meanwhile beginners seems to out catch me easily. Any tips/advice? or do you want to buy my rods?

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If anyone fishes these streams please let me know. I’ve been fishing them on and off for years with mostly poor results. I do better on the Ausable. Meanwhile beginners seems to out catch me easily. Any tips/advice? or do you want to buy my rods?

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Any tips/advice? or do you  want to buy my rods?

 If they are T&T, Winston or Cane….maybe. Wayne Always looking for fine rods-cheap.

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I fished the Connetquot twice. I did not find it particularly satisfactory: inspite of the 3 to 4 fish per hour catch rate, the fish behave mostly like large stockers (heck, they are mostly large stockers), they thrash rather than fighting. Probably, fishing during this time of the year for sea-run ‘bows is more exciting than fishing in the summer. My advice: wholly buggers, large bead-head nymphs. The river is small, mostly very flat, with one or two deep holes per beat. That’s where the fish like to hang out, all of them, in quite large pods. Work those holes carefully, starting from the side closest to you, and from the downstream side of the hole. Inspite of the fact that these fish are stocked, they can be weary, since they see a lot of fishermen.  Using a stealthy approach helps too !. -Vittorio – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If anyone fishes these streams please let me know. I’ve been fishing them on and off for years with mostly poor results. I do better on the Ausable. Meanwhile beginners seems to out catch me easily. Any tips/advice? or do you want to buy my rods?

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)? I use standard dry fly hooks in sizes 16-10, with 12s and 14s being the most common..  Tie in a bit of mallard flank for the tail and snip to just behind the bend.  The body is fine chenille wrapped back and then forward to make it fat.  I usually use black, sometimes brown, but any color can be used.  Take two turns of brown hackle and then sweep them toward the back of the hook and tie down.  The wing is a heavy clump of white calf tail tied in on top and also swept back.  Calf tail is VERY slippery. It’s important to tie it in very firmly or it will pull out.

My copy of Flies: The Best 1000 gives the following recipe: hook: TMC 7999, Partidge M or P, size 8-12 thread: black 6/0 prewaxed tail: brown hackle fibers body: black Chenille hackle: brown hackle wing: white calftail They classify this as an Atlantic Salmon fly — something bogus to avoid spam)

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thanks a bunch All of the advice has been miles of help.  I’m fly fishing the entire 3 day weekend in central Oregon. I think the best casting lesson is given from another fisherman, and not from a book.  So I will try to find an amiable fisherman where I am fishing this weekend to give me the basics.  I know the the book basics – 10 and 2 o’clock, keep your wrist locked, etc.  But I think a 1-on-1 lesson with a seasoned fisherman would be priceless. thanks again, and tight lines to all -Max

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

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They classify this as an Atlantic Salmon fly

I’ve only seen dressings for this fly in two sources over the years.  Both of them listed it as a streamer.  I’ve actually tied it as such and failed to catch anything on it.  I was first introduced to it by an excellent tier back when I was just beginning to get interested in fly fishing.  He tied it as a dry fly (as in my description) and I do it just as he did.  Considering how successful it’s been for me, I have always been surprised by how few people know the Pass Lake at all, regardless of how it’s dressed.  I’ve had a number of hundred fish days using this fly and it is very consistent fish catcher.  It has not been uncommon in my experience for fish to prefer it to whatever might be hatching at the moment.  Go figure.

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My experience is that selectivity to pattern is very uncommon.  As long as you have an appropriately sized fly, presented well, you get takes. Changing size is often important, changing pattern seldom is even during heavy hatches. The exceptions I’ve found to this is when fishing very calm water or with fish that are in heavily fished C&R waters (they can become hyper selective). Too many new anglers get wrapped up in finding the "right" fly rather than concentrating on the more important and more difficult aspect of reading water and making a good presentation. 90%+ of fish will respond to an appropriately sized fly presented correctly (Correctly is a VERY big subject) while 90%+ of fish will ignore a poorly presented fly even if it matches the hatch perfectly.   A little story I read in some magazine or book: There was a pod of notoriously difficult selectively surface feeding fish on a popular C&R river. These fish would consistently surface feed on the far bank under some overhanging branches. These fish were locally famous for being extremely difficult & selective. A number of patterns were designed especially for these fish. An angler would have success one day and catch one of these "tough" ones. Someone would have success on a new fly and there’d be an instant new "hot" pattern  This went on for several years with a multitude of patterns circulating around, but no one was able to achieve any consistent success. Then the discovery was made!  An energetic and smart angler made the long hike needed to cross the river and did some bushwhacking to get in position for a downstream cast directly above the feeding fish.  He clobbered them on a simple Elk Hair’s Caddis.  It seems that the fish were not so selective to pattern but where very selective to presentation.  An infrequent good drift could be made from the far bank, but the intervening currents made it very difficult. Thus the sporadic results with the new hot flies. Willi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you’re fishing a Caddis, and BWO’s start to come off, and fish start hitting them, you’d be foolish not to change flies.  Even as a newbie. Similarly, if you’re sight fishing, and you present a fly properly to a feeding, unspooked fish, and it doesn’t respond, you should change. Period.  Of course, as a newbie, you may have trouble sorting out when you’ve met the criteria ("properly presented", "unspooked").  But hey, life is tough for newbies, so what else is new?  But the alternative of continuing to chuck your "one" fly at the beast isn’t all that attractive either. I do think that disciplined, careful changing of flies is a skill that can be learned by newbies, and is preferable to sticking with one fly no matter what happens.  For example, if you don’t know what they’re hitting, learning to fish a two nymph rig, and systematically changing one fly at a time when nothing happens is all to the good, imho.  If you want to keep one a hare’s ear all the time, by all means.  But changing the other systematically would likely improve results. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I have always been surprised by how few people know the Pass Lake at all, regardless of how it’s dressed.  I’ve had a number of hundred fish days using this fly and it is very consistent fish catcher.  It has not been uncommon in my experience for fish to prefer it to whatever might be hatching at the moment.  Go figure.

Thanks Wolfgang.  I happen to have the materials handy so I’ll tie up a few tonight – never hurts to try something new.  A wooly worm with a calftail wing basically.  If my local trout don’t care for it, I’m sure the pumpkinseeds will.  Fishing it like you do, trapped in the film, is probably a good imitator of a variety of emergers. Regards, Stan

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When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

My advice to a beginner is to not give in to the temptation of switching flies very often.  Learn how to present a nymph and a dry properly, at the correct depth, in the right spots etc.  The "right" fly presented poorly is much worse than the "wrong" fly presented well and in the right place. Presentation is the skill that makes a good fly fisherman who can be successful on varied waters and conditions. IMHO this is the skill a beginner should concentrate on. Once you learn where the fish are most likely to be and how to present a fly in the correct manner and at the right depth, selecting the "right" fly may increase your catch. Without presentation skills, it doesn’t matter much which fly you’re using. I’d suggest using an all around dry and nymph to start.  A 16 Elk Hair Caddis and a 14 Hare’s Ear area good choice for Western waters. Willi

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0] : I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: : Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that : the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. : Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? : If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? : What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake : vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. : When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) : What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? : thanks a lot : -Max I will add something to the other answers you have gotten to your questions. I find that most of the time I can clean the fish slime off a dry fly by flicking it hard against the water on a short line a few times, then a couple of false casts to dry it, and then the next cast is to a fish–all without having to touch the fly after I have released the fish. Obviously don’t flick it near the spot where you are going fish it next. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

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My advice to a beginner is to not give in to the temptation of switching flies very often. I’d suggest using an all around dry and nymph to start.  A 16 Elk Hair Caddis and a 14 Hare’s Ear area good choice for Western waters.

Willi, Like anything else, it’s a matter of everything in moderation, including moderation. If you’re fishing a Caddis, and BWO’s start to come off, and fish start hitting them, you’d be foolish not to change flies.  Even as a newbie. Similarly, if you’re sight fishing, and you present a fly properly to a feeding, unspooked fish, and it doesn’t respond, you should change. Period.  Of course, as a newbie, you may have trouble sorting out when you’ve met the criteria ("properly presented", "unspooked").  But hey, life is tough for newbies, so what else is new?  But the alternative of continuing to chuck your "one" fly at the beast isn’t all that attractive either. I do think that disciplined, careful changing of flies is a skill that can be learned by newbies, and is preferable to sticking with one fly no matter what happens.  For example, if you don’t know what they’re hitting, learning to fish a two nymph rig, and systematically changing one fly at a time when nothing happens is all to the good, imho.  If you want to keep one a hare’s ear all the time, by all means.  But changing the other systematically would likely improve results. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– While in non-compliance with local decency ordinances the world over, Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink.

I didn’t think that fish salivate. Shows ya what I know. At any rate, I don’t change the fly. Some people will re-tie the knot after every fish, but I don’t even do that. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished?

Both. Usually, most people think that the key is how the fly is tied, but I personally consider a dry that sinks to be a wet fly. (However, it’s rare that wet flies float, since they’re often weighted) If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

Not necessarily. You just need to gink it. I would say that it is, but I’d bet that I’m in the minority. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

If there’s a hatch and fish are feeding at the surface, then I’d use a dry. Otherwise, I might start with some dry search pattern, but I’d probably move on to nymphs or streamers. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

After an hour or so with no action. But that depends. It’s easy for me to tie on the right fly and then screw everything else up. What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns?

My own do-everything dry patterns are the Adams, Royal Coachman, a hopper pattern, and an Elk Hair Caddis. I also carry Hare’s Ear and Prince Nymphs, and Wooly Bugger, or some sort of Muddler streamer. If I’m on warm water, I’ll add cork poppers in various colors. All told, those make up probably 95% of all of the fishing that I do. But then, there are much better fishermen than I in this newsgroup Tight Lines! —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBN3vW/ckBcsCVVLK5AQH5mQP/bzO6lYiF4+s9UBS0y7+cktA3xMLs7RMJ Ooi4q1H+d4ELDsk9K3VObnsGGmZM76cB2DnnXAA2L85wBCPP8lplKURnxDjw6JVN h+whcgF4olt3U44TBEYLay38UFT4nfmr9aZhRo5mV/NSLkJOrpjGze2ltZfTwdqp chR+N3TfgYE= =8KRl —–END PGP SIGNATURE—– Mike S. Medintz, B.S. | http://www.grapevine.net/~medintz "Living with a dog is easy-like living with an idealist  is easy." -H.L. Mencken

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Max: You have received good advise from all, butIi would like to add one fly that I do not leave home without that appears to have been forgotten by all.That is a Clouser minnow. My most productive one is very sparsely tied chartreuse over white and tied with bead chain eyes. Big Dale

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Max: You have received good advise from all, butIi would like to add one fly that I do not leave home without that appears to have been forgotten by all.That is a Clouser minnow. My most productive one is very sparsely tied chartreuse over white and tied with bead chain eyes.

Hey Dale, my own personal "Don’t leave home without it" is the Pass Lake.  Never understood why this bug isn’t more popular.  It’s somewhat infuriating to use because it always sinks when I want it to float and always floats when I want it to sink, but it catches lots of fish either way.  I used to do a lot of fishing with a partner.  We would take turns.  One would fish while the other watched and critiqued.  When a fish was hooked we’d change places.  While waiting my turn to fish I would simply let my bug dangle downstream.  This turned out to be an incredibly effective technique with the Pass Lake; many hundreds of fish caught this way!  The Pass Lake, though it resembles nothing I have ever seen on this Earth is very popular with trout, and bluegills just can’t leave the damned thing alone!

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Hey Dale, my own personal "Don’t leave home without it" is the Pass

Lake. <dot dot dot OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)? My personal favorites are the zug bug and the prince nymph – don’t know why these are so effective – maybe it’s the peacock herl.  Caught over 100 panfish plus a goodly number of bass on those during the past week.  I ran out of both and need to tie more tonight… –Stan

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OK, that’s a new one on me.  Could you post a recipe for the Pass Lake (here or on rofft)?

I use standard dry fly hooks in sizes 16-10, with 12s and 14s being the most common..  Tie in a bit of mallard flank for the tail and snip to just behind the bend.  The body is fine chenille wrapped back and then forward to make it fat.  I usually use black, sometimes brown, but any color can be used.  Take two turns of brown hackle and then sweep them toward the back of the hook and tie down.  The wing is a heavy clump of white calf tail tied in on top and also swept back.  Calf tail is VERY slippery. It’s important to tie it in very firmly or it will pull out. This fly often rides with the body submerged because of the chenille’s propensity to absorb water, and the wing on the surface.  I suspect it is the fat body just below the surface that makes it attractive to fish despite the fact that it doesn’t really resemble anything that lives in the water.  A liberal application of Albolene helps keep the wing on top. However, as I stated in my original post this one often sinks anyway.  The only real problem with this is that the fly is then difficult to see in fast or foamy water.  It will catch fish anyway.  It can be fish as a dry, a wet, or an emerger.  I’ve never tried weighting it and using as a nymph but I suspect that would work too. TL!

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Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that

Most people try to use flies made of materials that will dry by false-casting:  then you do not need to change the fly after it gets sodden.  Method #2 is to waterproof your flies: there are plenty of formulae or commercial products. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

Old (English) theory:  yes:  retrieve and change it. New (American) practice: no:  just carry on fishing. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

Yes, all of the above.  In practice, when no fish are visible, most anglers tie on a known "attractor" to get fish to show themselves. E.g. Henryville Special (dry caddis) is good for trout, Cockatouche (streamer, sunk) for bass. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

1.  Choice #1 is between the same fly in a different place and a different fly in the same place. 2.  When you have not yet seen any fish, and if the wading is not too daunting, 4 or 5 casts is enough — and then you move on to cover more water. 3.  It is different if you have seen a fish, e.g. noticed one feeding to a hatch, or got an unsuccessful strike in pocket water.  You should then try 10 or 20 different variations (fly or placement) — indefinitely so long as you do not scare the fish away. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Max….buddy…..you’ve got a LOT of reading to do…. Pick up a copy of Curtis Creek Manifesto (no, not a predecessor to the Unabombers Manifesto!!)…this is a humorous but highly informative book about beginning to Flyfish, a good book for folks that are getting "hooked"….yes, an intentional pun… If you have fished at all before, you probably know some about reading the water… knowing how the water moves, where "lies" are (besides those coming from fishermen’s mouths) and what effect current has on fish.  If not, take a look at a used bookstore for a copy of Ray Ovinton’s "Tactics on Trout"…. it’s a great overview book and can usually be picked up in a late printing used for around $10….another EXCELLENT book on the subject is Ray Bergman’s "Trout"…but it may be a bit more expensive. If you know folks that flyfish, go with them….but leave your rod behind on the first trip and observe closely…ask alot of questions like "why did you do that?" and "why did you cast there?" flyfishermen love to talk about their sport and will be good teachers, but the best classroom is a stream or lake….it’s real toigh to describe how things work away from the water. To learn more about the insects, what they look like and what flies approximate that look, get a copy of Hughes and Haefle’s "Western Hatch Guide" or Art Flick’s "Streamside Guide" …. H&H’s book has a wider range of information, especially for Western US waters….but Flick’s has better photos. Don’t buy flies until you know what types of insects to expect where you’re going to fish….it will help you decide what may work for you and what sizes.  There are some standard pattterns that will work almost anywhere at some point in time, like ….. Dries (there’s a range of colors for all of them..even the Adams….grey, olive, tan, etc.) Adams Elk Hair Caddis Stimulator Sparkle Dun Comparadun Wulffs Royals Trudes Cahills Hendricksons Humpys Mosquitos Nymphs Golden and Brown Stones Pheasant Tails Grey Goose Fox Squirrel Fledermaus APs Prince Zugs Hare’s Ear Wets Cahills Leadwing Coachman Hare’s Ear Professor Trout Fin Picket Pin Wooly Worms Streamers and larger wets Ghosts Mickey Finn Daces Thunder Creeks Wooly Buggers Leeches Matukas Zonkers Terrestrials Hoppers Crickets Beetles Inchworms Caterpilars Ants Mice Best of luck and welcome to the lunacy known as flyfishing….I’m sure your next questions will involve FLYTYING  :) Larry #:)#

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly? ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Max, Unfortunately, the answers to most of these questions are not clear- cut.  They must begin with "depends".  A dry fly floats because it does not break the miscus or surface tension of the water it lays on.  I just walked in from fishing a Giant Yellow Mayfly for Bluegill.  I caught 8 large fish in 25 minutes and did not change flys (on my lunch 1/2 hour).  The fly was Ginked before hand and had no trouble staying afloat.  Some flys do not float as well.  Throw it back on the water and see if it sinks.  If it dies, dry it and re-treat it.  If it still sinks, tie on a new one.  I usually carry 3 of each pattern I expect to use because of losses to trees and the need to change out after several fish.  Drys are tied differently from wets in most instances. Watch for feeding fish and go dry or wet depending on what you see.  Fish feed primarily under water so that should be a clue. For fly selection, again, it "depends".  Species, local hatch/baitfish matches, water, etc.  For Trout make sure you have Royal Coachman wet and dry, Royal Wolf wet and dry, Elk Hair Caddis dry and nymph, Yellow Humpy dry, Mad Tom streamer, Grey Ghost streamer, Adams dry, Light Cahill dry, Trico dry, Blue Quill dry, Quill Gordon dry, and Hare’s Ear Bead Head nymph. Have all these flys in sizes 16 to 20 and add size 22 for Tricos. For Smallmouth add black popper, blue popper, Mad Tom streamer, and Zonker streamer.  Have these in sizes 2, 4 and 6.  For Bluegill add yellow popper with legs in size 6 and Crystal fly in silver and/or gold in size 6. Now, you wanna talk saltwater or salmon or other species?  There are specialists here for all of these. Just ask! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20

casts) Max: Mike Conner and others have given you some great responses.  I’ll focus only on this question of when to switch flies. I know, for myself, as I’ve gotten more experienced, I tend to change flies MORE not less. This is partly because I have more confidence in my ability to read water and present a fly.  Ergo, if fish aren’t taking, it’s time to change. There’s no hard and fast rule, as others have pointed out.  If you can see the fish, present the fly where the fish can definitely see it, in it’s feeding lane, and there’s no reponse, that’s usually a good indication to change.  In these cases, you might change after only 1 or 2 casts. If you’re fishing blind, the lack of response from "fishy" spots, lethargic takes, refusals, etc. are indications it’s time to change. Also, if you’re fishing an attractor or some other pattern based on guess or history, and then you see another type of fly hatching, that’s a prescription to change instantly to match the hatch. If fish are rising, and you see swirls, watch carefully to see if the mouth or the back of the fish is causing the swirl.  If the latter, it’s an indication the fish are taking an emerger.  You’d then want to switch immediately to a wet fly, nymph, or emerger pattern. Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink.

No, you don’t generally need to change a fly each time you catch a fish unless the fly is damaged.   Dry flies (so named because they float on the surface) depend on the surface tension of the water supporting the barbs of the hackle feathers.   Fish saliva (aka slime) will coat these feathers and prevent them from floating as designed.   Rinse off the fly, dry it (crystals, blow on it, false casting, etc.) and it’s good for another fish. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished?

The terminology generally refers to how it is tied, that is, how it is designed to be fished.   There are always, of course, exceptions.   A dry can easily be fished wet, but the reverse is unlikely. If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly?

No, it is a sunken dry fly. What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc.

That’s a lot of question to answer here.   In broad, maybe obvious terms, use a fly that matches what the fish are eating.   If they’re sipping insects off the surface, use a dry.   If you see them taking nymphs off the bottom, use a nymph.   If you can’t see fish at all, try "searching" with a streamer or attractor pattern in some likely holding spots.   There are dozens of books that can fill in the blanks on this.   I have and like "Prospecting for Trout" by Tom Rosenbauer (my only Orvis posession); but I have no doubt that others also have their favorites. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts)

There’s no hard and fast rule for me.   I change when I’ve lost confidence that what I’m using is right.   Even if a trout takes a good look at my fly and refuses it, I could be doing a half dozen other things wrong but still have the right fly.   If you’re sure you have no drag, the leader is invisible, the presentation is perfect and the fish hasn’t been spooked; but he still won’t take it, maybe it’s time to consider that the fly may be wrong.   As often as not though, I can’t blame the fly. What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns?

It really depends on where you fish and the common insects found there.   A few "universal" patters seem to be Hendrickson, Adams, and Royal Wulff dries, Hare’s Ear and Pheasant Tail nymphs, Woolly Buggers and Muddler Minnow streamers.   Many more to follow from others. Joe F.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

Hi Max, You do not need to change the fly after every fish, only if it is slimed up or soaked through( Dry flies ). Fish slime will cause a dry fly to sink, and it must then be cleaned dried and re-dressed to get it to float again.  For wet flies this is not a problem, just washing the slime off suffices, as the fly is designed to sink. Wet flies are tied basically to sink, and dry flies are tied basically to float.  You can use a dry fly as a wet fly if you want to however.  How you designate the fly really depends on how you fish it, although some flies are tied specifically to float using certain materials, and would be difficult to use properly as wet flies. The same goes for many wet flies which are tied specifically to sink, even using weight such as lead wire etc to achieve better sinking properties, it would not be possible to use such a fly as a dry fly of course. If fish are taking well on the surface and you can match the hatch, then it is a good idea, and a lot of fun to fish dry flies.  If there is no obvious hatch and no or very few rises, then you will probably have more success with wet flies. There are no hard and fast rules for this, you can fish wet or dry flies whichever you prefer at the time. If you know that your fly is a good imitation, and it is working OK then there is no need to change it at all.  When to change is a matter of personal preference. if fish are rising and you are not catching any, then it may be a good idea to change to another pattern though. For a good list of general purpose patterns have a look at http://www.flyangleronline.com  and go to the beginners section from the main menu.   There is quite a lot of other info there which should help you as well. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

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I’m new to fly fishing, and I have a couple of questions: Do you need to change a dry fly each time you catch a fish?  I heard that the fish saliva will cause the fly to sink. Is the fly dry or wet depending on how it is tied or how it is fished? If you are using a dry fly, and it sinks, is it now a wet fly? What are good cues to know whether or not to use a dry or wet fly?  ie. lake vs. stream, weather, type of fish, hatch, etc. When do you decide to switch flies?  ie. 4 casts with no strike(20 casts) What are some good, general purpose wet and dry patterns? thanks a lot -Max

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Question:

Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

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got skunked. I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

Love you Bill!!!!! You probably have more experience with both guides and lawyers, but I find it easies to find a competeant guide than it is a competeant lawyer. Care to comment? Big Dale

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LL Bean still has their warranty policy in place… Lifetime satisfaction guarantee If you break the rod on a trip, they’ll overnight fedex a replacement anwhere in the country.  You return the broken rod at your convenience. All free. Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault.  I remember that I took care of my rod, because if I broke it, I was  out X number of dollars.  I remember a time when you were responsible for your actions.  I remember when I didn’t do well in school, it was my fault, not society.  I remember breaking my arm in junior high school and not suing the school.  I remember a time when if you broke something, you stood up like a man and admitted it…. It’s amazing how rods are now "accidently" broken as opposed to how many were broken BEFORE the new warranties. Just my 2 cents. Flyguy Bill Kiene wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault

Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod. Some people probably won’t buy a super-premium rod because they’re afraid they’ll break it.  So by offering a no-fault warranty, the manufacturers get more folks to buy the highly profitable rods.  Really, it makes a lot of sense given the disparity between direct and retail costs. Especially now that the rod vendors are charging for warranty repairs (and offsetting most of the cost anyway), they’re laughing all the way to the bank. Michael

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You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod.

that very possibly true – check out George Gherke’s costing for his Bastard Rod – the fitting alone exceed $50. but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit. For most products of this nature the mark up on the rod( the difference between the retail price and the wholessale price the retailer pays) is about 1/3 of the price you pay. So for a $650 rod the manufacturer may gets $425 in revenue. Ralph H

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but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit.

Absolutely true, but it’s also my point. You can make the argument that it’s reasonable for a fly mfg. to charge $650 for a rod.  (Hey, no one’s forcing me to buy the damn thing, and the market also supplies pretty good rods at every price point from $19 up).  Lord knows, a lot of vendors with fancy names and fancy rods are only marginally profitable.  But the time to make the profit is on the initial sale and, hopefully,  the next sale a few years later from a satisfied customer upgrading to the same vendor’s latest and greatest. Repairs are a time when the vendor can make or break customer loyalty.  It’s simply not worth getting into a debate with the customer about who’s fault it was.  <<Was the ferrule defective, or had it loosened up on me while fishing?  Is it the fault of the vendor’s poor tolerances that the rod loosened up and then broke at the ferrule, or my sloppy fishing habits, for not checking them every once in a while?  It just makes good sense for the manufacturer to fix a rod at it’s marginal cost, and not mark it up.  Even if it truly is the customer’s fault.  Hey, we all make mistakes. Then you can argue whether, if the marginal cost is so low (say $20 for a section of a $600 rod), does it make sense to bill for it, or do you get even more than $20 worth of loyalty and repeat business to do it for "free". I don’t see this as a biggee…it’s close enough to $0 that I wouldn’t care if I felt it were my fault.  Of course, if it were truly a mfg. flaw, I’d be pissed off about paying even $20, much less $50. Michael

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Question:

Register now for: Fly tying classes, instructor Derek Tay,  beginning January 1999 Fly Casting classes beginning April 1999 Christmas gift certificates available Atlantic Fly Fishing School Brookfield, Nova Scotia www.flyschool.net

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Register now for: Fly tying classes, instructor Derek Tay,  beginning January 1999 Fly Casting classes beginning April 1999 Christmas gift certificates available Atlantic Fly Fishing School Brookfield, Nova Scotia www.flyschool.net

____ Your http://www.flyschool.net  will show up blueif you add the http://  (I think!)  Why it didn’t light up as a web site, I don’t know.   Someone will tell me. Anyhow, I think teaching people "how" to use their hands tying flies is the primary goal before we teach them specific flies.  For example, how to use the hands to tie in tails, wings, tying knots, etc. When I go to Sports Shows with Fly Tiers, I will watch instructors on how they explain tying a fly, and FEW, if any ever cover what they are doing with their hands to properly divide the wings for that fly, for instance. "Sure, I know you use Calf Hair, but . . . " I will visit your site and see what you have. If you need to try some FLY-MAKER’S WAX or order some, let me know at: http://www.gink.com/ (Was I tactful enough with that fellahs?) no?  huh?

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Now, what did you expect making a comment like that n a jeep ng…. What a weenie…

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".

You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. — Its a Jeep thing..You would’t understand. URL: http://the-threshold.org/gallery/jeep                   OR Its an Anoraks thing.. You don’t want to understand URL: http://the-threshold.org/Anorak-Offroad

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting… " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

  that was funny. Sorry guys and gals. I have to be a traitor on this one. I live in a college town. And here the average Jeep driver’s values and experiences have very little in line with me. Unless it’s clearly built or restored, it’s just another car. -ejs

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing.

Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

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Wow! If it isn’t Muskie the Wonder Troll returning to haunt our newsgroups!   Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

You still can’t get it right:  "It’s a Jeep thing… you wouldn’t understand" is the phrase. Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

Those that I have seen who have actually bestowed the phrase on their vehicle are generally those who actually take the vehicles off-road, go camping, lead an active life style, toss on a trailer of jet-ski’s or dirt bikes and actually have a life.  These people go to the Jeep Jamboree’s, the Trail Runs, etc.  They are far from ’sheep’ though a few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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How much would an Old Man Emu lift cost on an 86 cherokee?  I am looking for ball park estimates on the ~3" lift reviewed on off-road.com (i think). Also, are there web sources for Old Man Emu ordering? Thanks, jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

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Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"

If your idiotic flame bait bothered me at all, you might be right… Motorcycles have the same cadre relationship.  When you’re on a bike or a harley, almost *everybody* waves.  It is no different, and I think anybody who buys a jeep or a bike only for the waves is going to be sorely disappointed. Besides, it IS a JEEP thing, and you CLEARLY DO NOT understand.  at all… jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

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few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer.

I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great. jeremiah — 86 cherokee – soon to be a 3.4 L V6!!!!

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few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

hehe, I must admit I never thought of it that way.. but I have thought of it as a way to keep the vehicles in production and to keep the prices somewhat down.. on the other hand the high demand has surged what should be an $18-22k vehicle up to nearly $40k.. almost a full half of which is profit for Chrysler. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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HUH?! Where the hell is your point? Meanwhile, if you don’t understand – don’t bother trying.  Obviously, you don’t own a Jeep, so there’s your first obstacle.  The next is being a brand-loyal four-wheeler, where everybody who doesn’t drive you’re particular make of vehicle is pond-scum.  And finally, you’re a little dissatisfied with whatever make of vehicle you’re driving (and a little envious of a Jeep) to take issue with something you don’t or want to understand.  Get a life. I do think that we, as four-wheelers, need to recognize all makes and models as brethren and form an even larger following with a much more accurate motto:  "It’s a 4×4 thing…you asphalt-bound grocery-getters certainly wouldn’t understand."  Anybody with a purpose-built, fill-tilt-boogie off road rig (no matter what it is) gets a wave and nod-of-approval from me. Until then, it’s just us Jeepers… Eric ‘80 CJ-7 – 4" Pro Comp, 33×15.50 Swampers, and way too many other things to mention, ‘85 Nissan King Cab 4×4 – 31×10.50 AT’s, no lift, gets me to work and pulls the boat. — Opinions, everybody’s got one of those, too. You know how to Reply…

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Muskie,        Just when we thought Mr. Troll himself had finally gone away it slithers back in… I have a jeep because I always wanted one and I could care less who else has one. The jeep wave is a tradition, not really a club thing.  I know, you don’t get it. What does "It’s a jeep thing" mean?  It’s a diverse cultural association.  I think you exemplify a jeep cultural disassociation when you wrote "it’s just a d*** car."  That’s the difference.  I doubt you’re bright enough to figure it out though. Don To avoid a flame war I must add.  I am biased to jeeps but there are other manufacturers that build excellent vehicles.  This retort is aimed specifically at Muskie and not other vehicle afficianados. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. <really long boring story snipped   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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Well, when I see somebody in a 90-96 300ZX I certainly wave… Alex

[big snip]

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No that would be a RAV4, CRV, etc… No one knows what the hell it is and what purpose it serves!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". You don’t understand its a Jeep thing. Is this anything like "alternative music" ? —

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 The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!" Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing". It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow. What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people. Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep, and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back. Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.  " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!" Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together. "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".  Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds. " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.  " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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Wow, I guess you don’t understand.  I for one have always loved the Wrangler, and I just bought my 98 TJ in June(having no knowledge of the "Jeep Thing" or the waves I would get from fellow Jeepers)  I actually had to ask a friend who owns a YJ about the wave….he told me H wasn’t sure about it either.  As soon as I hit 1500 miles, I was off the pavement, with the top and the door removed.  I have no problem with any brand of 4X4, although I like some less than others  But honestly, I have never seen another group of drivers as friendly with those they don’t know or as willing to help out when someone needs it.  I’ve taken my stock(so far) jeep a few places a little above the level I should, and the one time I got stuck, I was still amazed how well it did. Ok, no more rambling…..I’m sure you’re sick of me by now

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I had a jeep and I loved it thy are good for mud raceing and for what ever ** HAVE A NICE DAY LARRY & KAREN **

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The jeeps I drove for many years were OD, that’s a different thing. The only thing now is Jeeps have become another temporary fad for the brtaibnless yuppies. This too soon will pass and jeeps will go back to being driven by real people who like them for what they are instead of a phoney status symbol. I can wait. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.   " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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few to many people who are following the Jones’s unfortunately do buy them instead of mock-SUV’s like the Explorer. I for one appreciate all the Yuppie’s buying new cherokees and TJs… I see it as fodder for myself in 5 or 6 years when I’ll be buying a used 99… just think of all those Yuppie jeeps as replacement parts.  never seen the mud, never been bashed over rocks or seen any real duty.  I think its just great.

I agree with this.  The only problem is that it seems a number of the new Jeeps are automatics.  Frankly, that’s sacrilege! — Cheers…Craig — Good manners and bad breath get you nowhere – Elvis Costello — It’s no use to blame the looking glass if your face is awry – S.J. Perelman — People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don’t realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world – Calvin (& Hobbes)

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The only so called "jeepers" who really know what the "jeep thing" is, are the one’s who actually see the logic behind driving in the rain with a bikini and no doors as everyone looks at you thinking "you idiot, youre getting wet"!  I’ll share that logic with you too……It’s FUN!!!

I often get asked if my Miata is a rental since I usually leave the top down unless it is absolutely pouring or I’m in stop/go traffic. Others don’t understand that Jeeps are waterproofed from the get-go, right down to a pair of drain holes in the floorboards! Ever wonder why most CJ and Wrangler variants didn’t even come with carpetting on the floors? Too bad it’s a hassle to take the doors off and front window down now.. (sigh) Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now……

Thank you for stating so eloquently what a lot of us are all about! Btw, I’m lucky enough to be a member of two very distinct ‘families’, the Jeep Family (by way of a lightly modded ‘93 ZJ V8 which has nearly 1/3rd of it’s 62,000 miles off road!) and the Miata club which, at least in off-road deprived Florida, is the more active and certainly more friendly of the two.  I also fall under the helping hand column. Heck, it was only Friday afternoon that I helped a poor lady push her out of gas car half a mile down the road to get it off of the worst part of the freeway.  :) You’re right.. some people just don’t get it. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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damn muskie that was good. i haven`t had such a good laugh in a long time . the thoughts of you playing on the floor with your barbie & ken dolls in jeeps cracked me up. could you entertain us with something about " its a 4×4 thing "  or  " its a harley thing "  or maybe a tough one like " its a man thing " ?  but please dont use your ken & barbie dolls again, i couldn`t stand the laughter. Jim

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<excellent commentary snipped Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing.

Here’s one hint: Why does everyone in a CRV, Rav-4, Tracker, Sidekick, Samurai, etc. always say "We’ll take my Jeep" but no one in a Jeep would ever say "We’ll take my CRV, etc."? There is only one Jeep. Modems.. the lightning rods of the ’90’s! (sigh) Don’t bother to E-mail.. not using my account.

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   "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.

No, it’s true that you don’t understand but that’s okay. The sheep that you’re referring to might be the demographic majority of Jeep drivers, but those are not the people who wave at each other and say "It’s a Jeep thing."  The "Jeep thing" element, you might find, has more disdain for "sorority Jeeps," "college Jeeps," "soccer mom Jeeps," "street jeeps" and "yuppie Jeeps" than anybody. Some people like F-14s and others would rather ride a P-38 or a P-51. Some people don’t know what a P-38 is, but they’ve seen Top Gun so they think they’re aviation enthusiasts. There are those that want to belong to a group of rugged individualists, and there are those that just do.  (I’ll be modest here as I can, but as a pilot, rock singer, writer, computer geek, civil war reenactor and active environmentalist, I might not be rugged but I’m individualist…) Jeep was the first word I learned to spell, and I promised by grandfather when I was three that I would buy him a Jeep.  Image had nothing to do with it.  My oldest toy, a 1960s Tonka Jeep CJ3B, sits on my desk at work. Raise your hand if you had an infatuation with Nissan when you were three. The thing is, if you go over to the Jeep newsgroup, you’ll see that I’m not an exception…I’m average.  Probably less that average if you pay attention to the complexity of knowledge of their vehicle that some people there have.  You’ll also notice their head spin to look when they see a Willys other other vintage Jeep.  It has nothing to do with the driver. Don’t think about the guy behind the wheel…think of the Jeep. Regardless of the year, a Jeep stripped of its hard top and doors is a classic.  If you’ve ever driven through the country, tackled an ominous "intermediate" 4×4 trail with a stock Jeep or even just cruised the highway with the top off on a sunny day, you understand.  If you’ve ever pulled off the side of the road on an August evening and looked straight up at a meteor shower, you’re getting there.   If you’ve ever yanked a built-up vehicle out of a mudhole or driven your stock Jeep around a 4×4 bogged down on a snow-covered hill, you’re there. Not to trash other 4×4s…I’ve seen old Landcruisers and a heavily-modified Samurai command respect where lesser drivers in Jeeps failed…but why drive a flimsy, overpriced derivative when you can drive the real thing?   There’s just nothing like climbing up into an old CJ and staring down the short nose.  It has the feel of an old warbird…the sound of the engine, the smell of the Jeep, the feeling that you’ve strapped on wheels. It’s not the fault of Jeep drivers that these sturdy classics appear to have gone soft, but while middle America drives around the suburb in the Jeep equivalent of a sports car, those of us die-hard Jeep fans who have driven the new TJs have come to appreciate that under the cloth and plastic interior there is still a bad-ass trail truck that isn’t laden down with mystery parts and strange devices that prevent us from getting under them and making our own modifications. Some Jeep drivers understand that.  Nothing against Toyotas or Chevys or any other vehicle or the people that driver them…it’s just a Jeep thing. Chris Gattman              |  "..And the sky is humming,

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I’ve only had my ‘90 YJ for about 2years but …….here’s my two cents….about the "Its a jeep thing" motto I was a Boy Scout growing up, did alot of camping every summer, I was taught to respect nature, be resourceful, prepared, efficient while also being simple and functional. IMHO jeeps fit in very smoothly w/ my yuppie who only buys a jeep for the "image", and never takes it off roading….what a waste….. I dont remember where I read it, but another jeep owner made the observation that when cruising down the road/trail jeep owners inevitably always nod/wave/check out each others jeep, but you hardly ever/never see other people check out each others Metro/Toyota/Caprice/whatever……Jeeps have a tradition and jeep owners who humbly acknowledge this are the coolest. People who live by the "Its a Jeep thing motto", stop to help others out, dont drive recklessly, etc…..I think I’ll quit my rambling now…… –jason

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 Lately,  I hear many people who own Jeeps spouting out this phrase:    "You wouldn’t understand man….it’s a Jeep thing!"  Ok.   I guess I don’t really get it.  But I am starting to understand something about " the Jeep thing".  It seems many(not all) Jeepers want to belong to a group of rugged  individualists.  They feel that having a rugged Jeep sets them apart  from the rest of society and makes them "different" somehow.  What is this? Words like "belong"  and "group" and "individualists" really seem to contradict each other don’t they?  It seems many Jeepers want to be different, just like all the different people.  Here comes Barbi Anne, driving her new pink Jeep onto the gravel national forest road. Ken is heading her way in his new blue Jeep,  and he waves the "jeep wave" to Barbi. Barbi waves back, smiling and giggling.  "I really belong" , thinks Barbi. " I really belong to a group of people that like me for my automobile purchase.  I feel really good about that."   Barbi Anne smiles a faint smile and continues down the road.  A few seconds later, Outback Johnny passes Barbi Anne in his new green Jeep, and waves. Barbi Anne waves back.  Continuing down the road, Barbi Anne responds to 34 waves from Jeepers.   " It’s a Jeep thing!"  they all yell at her. " It’s a Jeep thing!"  Further down the road, Barbi Anne’s progress is temporarily halted by a herd of sheep crossing the road to greener pastures. She listens to their bleating and babbling, and observes how they all huddle together.  "baaaaa…..baaaaaaaaa…bleeeeeeeet…….baaaaaaaaa".  The sheep  huddle even closer across the road. " baaaaaaaa…its a jeep thing….. ……bleeeeeettttt."   The sheep babble even louder, then slowly pass over a low hill on the horizon.   Barbi Anne drives her Jeep down the road, glad that she was pressured by friends to belong to the "Jeep Thing".   Meanwhile, Jimmy is on a nearby forest road, about to park at a turnoff near a fishing stream.  Jimmy drives a Chevy 4×4 full size. He parks his rig and takes his 6 foot fly rod case out of the bed, and unloads his gear.  A man in a toyota 4runner drives by and waves. The man in the 4runner turns around to talk to the man about the fishing.    " How do you like the full size chevy?"  asks the 4runner driver.  " I like it just fine". Jimmy responds.  " how do you like your 4runner?" asks jimmy.   " I like it just fine", says the 4runner driver.     " What thing is it?" asks Jimmy.  " It’s not ANYTHING," says the 4runner driver. "it’s just a damn car." —-Muskie

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Question:

Great responses from all

Question:

Every time I drive from TN to NC, I look down at the Piegon River near the border by the Waterville exit.  I remember hearing that most the fish left the river due to the discharges of the Canton paper mill in Canton, NC.  Now that the mill has cleaned up it’s discharge, does anyone know if the river supports any fish? If so, do you know what patters work in this area? Thanks in advance. Steve

The Pigeon River is still on Tennessee’s (ever-growing) list of places you shouldn’t eat fish from.  I’m not sure if fishing is allowed, or if you have to catch and release, or if it’s one of Tennessee’s areas that you’d just be better off not eating fish from (kind of like the Clinch River from Oak Ridge down to five miles below where it enters the Tennessee…)   The problem is that the dioxin discharged from Canton accumulated in the sediments that the insects live in and eat.  So the trout there very efficiently concentrate this dioxin by eating lots of insects. I understand Tennessee is trying to get the river dredged out and cleaned up, but naturally the North Carolina government doesn’t care to hurt its people’s jobs for a fishing stream 45 miles away.  Looks like another drawn-out Superfund kind of battle, with not much chance of a clean-up in sight. I think I remember the warning/prohibition lasts all the way downstream to Douglas Lake. Hope this helps.         Pat

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Every time I drive from TN to NC, I look down at the Piegon River near the border by the Waterville exit.  I remember hearing that most the fish left the river due to the discharges of the Canton paper mill in Canton, NC.  Now that the mill has cleaned up it’s discharge, does anyone know if the river supports any fish? If so, do you know what patters work in this area? Thanks in advance. Steve

Response:

The Dioxin Dry fly pattern works best.  It’s a three headed fly best fished with care  not to touch the fly, line, rod or water.  I agree the river is beautiful, but 30-40 years of uncontrolled pollution does not clean up in one year. The only people Champion Paper company is fooling are fools who are suckered into their commercials on TV.  If your truly interested in fishing the area for trout write me at:  Phil –    

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The Dioxin Dry fly pattern works best.  It’s a three headed fly best fished with care  not to touch the fly, line, rod or water.  I agree the river is beautiful, but 30-40 years of uncontrolled pollution does not clean up in one year. The only people Champion Paper company is fooling are fools who are suckered into their commercials on TV.  If your truly interested in fishing the area for trout write me at:  Phil –    

 I thought it was more than 30-40…didn’t they open the mill in 1908?   Just curious. *                                                                       * *                                                                       * *  ENTOMOLOGIST          ANTIQUE TACKLE COLLECTOR        ALL-AROUND NUT * *                  _____/  O                                           * *                                  |                    |               * *                                  |                    |               * *                                  |                 _/ _/            * *                               _/ _/                                 *

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Question:

Does anyone know about beaver creek in CA this year or at all? I was there last year late in the summer and the water was realy low. The were a lot of feed bugs in the water, but the water was too low to produce any sizable trout. Any info on the creek would be great. TimFLYFISH Dream of flyfishing, but also let the fish dream. C & R

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Tim, where do you fish Beaver Ck.? in the park or up outa Sourgrass? I would expect the water to be high right now. The Stanislaus at Sourgrass was pretty high and fast a couple weeks ago. As I remember the fish aren’t really big there. This time of the year, due to high, fast water fish close to the river bank. There are some nice holes outa Sourgrass and up the creek where the road crosses Beaver Ck. wish you luck, Bob

: Does anyone know about beaver creek in CA this year or at all? I was there : last year late in the summer and the water was realy low. The were a lot : of feed bugs in the water, but the water was too low to produce any : sizable trout. Any info on the creek would be great. : TimFLYFISH : Dream of flyfishing, but also let the fish dream. C & R —  Remember amateur astronomers: "keep looking for the next Universe"

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Question:

I’m looking for a high quality 9-weight rod I can use for saltwater (blues and stripers) and freshwater (bass)? Any recommendations other than Orvis and Sage?

I use a custom built rod using a GLoomis IMX 9.5′/9wt 2pc blank (model FR1149, if I remember correctly). This is a cannon of a rod and is able to punch soggy 2/0 flies into the typical New England ocean winds with aplomb, and fight the big guys to the beach. I’ve landed some good-size bluefish (14~15 lbs) against an outgoing tide at the mouth of the Merrimack with this rod. It casts more like a 10wt than a 9 so I’ve overloaded it by one line size, and I’ve used a Teeny T500 (the ultimate depth charge) on it with no surprises. If you have the forearm for it, I highly recommend a similar rod for grownup blues and stripers… /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Try Scott, they make a beautiful rod to cast

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Ken Lindsay Fly Fishing Online http://www.flyfishing-online.com

Ken: Your Web page is dysfunctional; it apparently needs a little virtual therapy, or perhaps some head cement. I have a little GL3– a 78" for 3, but prefer my Loomis IMX rods for the bigger rivers, longer casts and heavier winds.

Response:

I’m looking for a high quality 9-weight rod I can use for saltwater (blues and stripers) and freshwater (bass)? Any recommendations other than Orvis and Sage? Thanks. David

Response:

Winston… it’s the only rod.  See other’s comments in "What do you think of Winston Rods" subject messages Karl the Bass

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Try the Loomis GLX series. They are really powerful. Another rod   to try would be the Redingtons. THe price is considerably lower   than the big boys and they have super actions. Good Luck, Ken Lindsay Fly Fishing Online http://www.flyfishing-online.com

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I’m looking for a high quality 9-weight rod I can use for saltwater (blues and stripers) and freshwater (bass)? Any recommendations other than Orvis and Sage? Thanks. David

You should take a good look at Powell Rods. They are very high quality and a goof bargan for the quality.

Response:

I’m looking for a high quality 9-weight rod I can use for saltwater (blues and stripers) and freshwater (bass)? Any recommendations other than Orvis and Sage?

Loomis makes some great rods.  Both the GLX (high end) and GL3 ( mid range) are good values fo rthe money.  The GL3 is the fastest rod I know of in the 200-250 price range.                  /                 /                   John Woodling                /                    Sacramento, CA                   <     <

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I’m looking for a high quality 9-weight rod I can use for saltwater (blues and stripers) and freshwater (bass)? Any recommendations other than Orvis and Sage? Thanks. David

I like the J.K. Fisher GT40 9/10, very powerful. My friend’s Scott Heli Ply seems real nice too. Fin Nor is selling rods under their name built on GT40 blanks too. Neither of these rods are cheap, but they’re both fine sticks.                                                         john cloyd

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I’m looking for a high quality 9-weight rod I can use for saltwater (blues and stripers) and freshwater (bass)? Any recommendations other than Orvis and Sage? Thanks. David

One of the best  rods for the money is a ST Croix Legend. They are made in Wis. and have a lifetime warrantee.  The list price for a  9′ 8/9 wt is $210.  IM-6 type  42,000,000 modulus.

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Question:

Could someone please provide me with the phone number of a fly fishing shop in either Bolder or Estes Park, Colorado?  I will be in boulder on business for four days next week and would like to try to fish all day Sunday.  I am tentatively planning on fishing the Big Thompson river all day Sunday. Thanks in advance. David Burba Intel Corp (602) 554-8763 (Wk)

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Dave, St Vrain Anglers, in Longmont. (303) 651-6061 They are located one block west of Main street on 4th st. (Main st is really US 287) near the corner of 4th and Terry. Another place you might consider fishing, if you have the time, is the Larimie river, south of Woods Landing.  It takes about 2 hours to get there, but there’s plenty of public water, plenty of 10 – 14 inch rainbows and brookies, and it’s a splended drive, up over Deadman Pass. —    Bill Oliver

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Dave Writes: Could someone please provide me with the phone number of a fly fishing shop in either Bolder or Estes Park, Colorado?  I will be in boulder on business for four days next week and would like to try to fish all day Sunday.  I am tentatively planning on fishing the Big Thompson river all day Sunday.

Dave the shop is called the Estes Angler: Phone 303-586-2110 The part owner is Don Darling. Last time I was up there, it was the only full service fly shop.       __*                              /                             /    From the Float Tube of Elmer Meiler                            /     Somewhere on the Pond of OZ                        0 /o                      __[]__                     (______)_____

Response:

Could someone please provide me with the phone number of a fly fishing shop in either Bolder or Estes Park, Colorado?  I will be in boulder on business for four days next week and would like to try to fish all day Sunday.  I am tentatively planning on fishing the Big Thompson river all day Sunday. Thanks in advance. David Burba

Here’s a couple:      Front Range Anglers (Boulder) (303) 494-1375      An Orvis Shop       (Boulder) (303) 442-6204 For fishing the Thomson, I’d recommend at least talking with Dale from St. Vrain Anglers in Longmont (12-15 miles northeast of Bldr…)  That seems to be more his neck of the woods… Gotta warn you though, like Montana, the fishin’ here is extremely poor. Has something to do with Califorians……  ;-) -PWM — Nat’l Center for Atmos Research    voice:  (303) 497-1293 Scientific Computing Division    

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