Question:

I tried it this weekend.. Not that great and, actually, I thought it was unremarkable..  I’ll stick to Thomas Kemper Big Fat Tuba as my fav.. Ben Perhaps it lived up to its name? Wade

Surprisingly, yes..  IMO.. Ben

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ah, yes… Castle Creek!  A lovely little run of water with great fishing, but you have to fish it right.  Honestly, if you don’t really sneak up on the creek, you’ll catch nothing.  Even the vibration of footsteps will give the brookies a severe case of lockjaw.  If you’re still in the area, find Ditch Creek Campground, south of Deerfield Lake and fish the stream between the campground and the lake.  Same stealth approach applies here. Man, good memories of camping, fishing and general exploring in these parts in the early ’70s.  Wish I was there! Greg Please tell us you have a web cam set up in the area so we can watch this as it takes place.  Kinda reminds me of snipe hunting when I was a

kid. Sorry, no web cam, but I’m not pulling your leg on the "sneak up on ‘em" approach for these brookies…. You could stand way back and try to cast to them, but the streams are narrow enough with trees, brush and shrubs that you’ll leave a lot of hardware hanging in the trees before you put a fly in the water (or at least that’s my experience).  BTW, did a lot of snipe hunting as a kid, too! Greg

Response:

While were on the subject.  Does anyone know if Big Rock Brewery in Calgary is still brewing Grasshopper.  It’s a great wheat ale that I haven’t been able to find here in Seattle for a while. Rich

They do make the Grasshopper, and they are also located in Vancouver as well as Delta BC. Wade

Response:

Welcome to the world of Northwest and Mountain states beer.  Along with Moose drool you may also like Mirror Pond Pale Ale, and Fat Tire Amber. While were on the subject.  Does anyone know if Big Rock Brewery in Calgary is still brewing Grasshopper.  It’s a great wheat ale that I haven’t been able to find here in Seattle for a while. Rich

Fat Tire Amber Ale is what I started out the trip with.  I bought it at Sam’s in Round Rock, Texas.  Good stuff. Bob, sitting in front of the Post Office, in Lead, SD

Response:

That’s a catchy name yuk. wade I tried it this weekend.. Not that great and, actually, I thought it was unremarkable..  I’ll stick to Thomas Kemper Big Fat Tuba as my fav.. Ben

Perhaps it lived up to its name? Wade

Response:

That’s a catchy name yuk. wade

I tried it this weekend.. Not that great and, actually, I thought it was unremarkable..  I’ll stick to Thomas Kemper Big Fat Tuba as my fav.. Ben

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Deerfield Lake, South Dakota 08/28/02 snip Not much luck on the fish.  I think that ranger guy was having a little fun with me about "Castle Crick".  It turns out to be a stream about 2 feet wide where it dumps into Deerfield Lake.  Small pickings. ah, yes… Castle Creek!  A lovely little run of water with great fishing, but you have to fish it right.  Honestly, if you don’t really sneak up on the creek, you’ll catch nothing.  Even the vibration of footsteps will give the brookies a severe case of lockjaw.  If you’re still in the area, find Ditch Creek Campground, south of Deerfield Lake and fish the stream between the campground and the lake.  Same stealth approach applies here. Man, good memories of camping, fishing and general exploring in these parts in the early ’70s.  Wish I was there! Greg

So that’s what the matter was.  I wasn’t sneaky enough.  Well, let that be a lesson to me. Bob

Response:

And wooly boogers?  Those things are HUGE.  The only action I got was on smaller stuff.   Not that it makes much difference Bob, but I think the fly was invented as a ‘Wooly Bugger’, not Booger.

If it is a 2 foot wide creek, chances are it has nothing bigger than 8 inch brookies.  A big bait would scare them off. LZ

Response:

Welcome to the world of Northwest and Mountain states beer.  Along with Moose drool you may also like Mirror Pond Pale Ale, and Fat Tire Amber. While were on the subject.  Does anyone know if Big Rock Brewery in Calgary is still brewing Grasshopper.  It’s a great wheat ale that I haven’t been able to find here in Seattle for a while. Rich

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Deerfield Lake, South Dakota 08/28/02 You know, as a matter of design, I’ve always disliked floor vents for heaters.  They’re a weak point in the floor, and they collect dirt and small dust bunnies that are hard to remove.  But after 2 hours wading up a cold stream in a pair of sneakers, it sure feels good to rest your blue toes right on top of that vent. Aaaaaahhhhhhh. Yeah, I know.  I have waders.  But I didn’t have them WITH me.  :o( Not much luck on the fish.  I think that ranger guy was having a little fun with me about "Castle Crick".  It turns out to be a stream about 2 feet wide where it dumps into Deerfield Lake.  Small pickings. And wooly boogers?  Those things are HUGE.  The only action I got was on smaller stuff. Most of the fishing here is done on the lake.  You can see the big ones rising in the morning, flop and flash.  I need to find or fashion a light pontoon for the kayak, to make it more stable for fishing. Perhaps a yoke and a couple pieces of conduit, with inflatable bags on the ends.  I’m not able to search the web right now, but I’ll bet somebody already makes something like that. There are a couple of special purpose fishing platforms being used here that are small and light enough to be carried in an RV compartment.  One is the inner tube with straps and waders contraption, which strikes me as an elaborate way to drown.  More promising are the 6-8 foot pontoon boats, with oars, that skitter around out there like waterbugs. They are very light, all aluminum tubing and air.  Maybe 40 lbs.  I saw a smallish man lift one easily from the back of his pickup, carry it upside down over his head 40 or 50 feet down a hill, and set it lightly in the water.  It rides high on the pontoons, which are inflated bladders zipped up in sturdy rubberized nylon covers.  It would take a lot to poke a hole in one. The neat thing is the way they break down flat for storage.  The frame snaps together, the pontoons deflate and fold up, and the biggest single piece is maybe 2′ x 3′ x 6 inches.  You could store it under your bed.  They cost anywhere from $400-$800.  At that price you could sell it if you didn’t like it, and not lose much.  The one I looked at was sold by "Buck’s Bags".  I think they have a website. Of course if you’re going out on Lake Superior, you need a kayak.  Or an ocean liner.  I’d rather have my kayak for speed and exploring. But for just getting out on the reservoir and having a stable place to cast from, these things are the Cat’s Meow.  They’ll take a trolling motor and battery if you’re feeling lazy.  There’s even room for a small cooler of Moose Drool. O yeah.  Moose Drool.  That’s the name of my favorite new beer, a brown ale made in Missoula.  Something like Bass ale.  When I first saw it down in Hill City, I thought: "That stuff has to be good, or they couldn’t stay in business". Believe me.  I have seen Moose drool.  It is not a pretty sight. Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much luck on the fish.  I think that ranger guy was having a little fun with me about "Castle Crick".  It turns out to be a stream about 2 feet wide where it dumps into Deerfield Lake.  Small pickings. And wooly boogers?  Those things are HUGE.  The only action I got was on smaller stuff. Most of the fishing here is done on the lake.  You can see the big ones rising in the morning, flop and flash.  I need to find or fashion a light pontoon for the kayak, to make it more stable for fishing. Perhaps a yoke and a couple pieces of conduit, with inflatable bags on the ends.  I’m not able to search the web right now, but I’ll bet somebody already makes something like that. Bob

FWIW unless you’re flyfishing, I found that the following worked well on trout in small, shallow AZ Mountain streams: Light or ultralight spinning outfit with 2-lb monofilament and 1/16 oz spinners. Walk/fish upstream, and reel in the lure at – or slightly faster than – the speed the stream is carrying it toward you. When the trout didn’t want to bite Z-rays in AZ lakes, we switched to sliding sinkers with terminal tackle of a foot or two of 1-lb monofiliment with a 12 or 14 treble hook barely hidden in a wad of Velveeta cheese. — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.

Response:

ah, yes… Castle Creek!  A lovely little run of water with great fishing, but you have to fish it right.  Honestly, if you don’t really sneak up on the creek, you’ll catch nothing.  Even the vibration of footsteps will give the brookies a severe case of lockjaw.  If you’re still in the area, find Ditch Creek Campground, south of Deerfield Lake and fish the stream between the campground and the lake.  Same stealth approach applies here. Man, good memories of camping, fishing and general exploring in these parts in the early ’70s.  Wish I was there! Greg

Please tell us you have a web cam set up in the area so we can watch this as it takes place.  Kinda reminds me of snipe hunting when I was a kid.

Response:

Check out www.bigskybrew.com for a list of items with Moose Drool  and others on them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – O yeah.  Moose Drool.  That’s the name of my favorite new beer, a brown ale made in Missoula.  Something like Bass ale.  When I first saw it down in Hill City, I thought: "That stuff has to be good, or they couldn’t stay in business". I saw this beer at the store the other day..  Was tempted to try it..  Catchy name..  Maybe I’ll give it a go and bring a 6 pack to the PNWCO so we can say we drank Moose Drool at the PNWCO.. <g Ben Believe me.  I have seen Moose drool.  It is not a pretty sight. Bob

Response:

Believe me.  I have seen Moose drool.  It is not a pretty sight.

Don’t they drool only when in rut? It could be pretty to other moose (meese?)

Response:

Deerfield Lake, South Dakota 08/28/02

snip Not much luck on the fish.  I think that ranger guy was having a little fun with me about "Castle Crick".  It turns out to be a stream about 2 feet wide where it dumps into Deerfield Lake.  Small pickings.

ah, yes… Castle Creek!  A lovely little run of water with great fishing, but you have to fish it right.  Honestly, if you don’t really sneak up on the creek, you’ll catch nothing.  Even the vibration of footsteps will give the brookies a severe case of lockjaw.  If you’re still in the area, find Ditch Creek Campground, south of Deerfield Lake and fish the stream between the campground and the lake.  Same stealth approach applies here. Man, good memories of camping, fishing and general exploring in these parts in the early ’70s.  Wish I was there! Greg

Response:

And wooly boogers?  Those things are HUGE.  The only action I got was on smaller stuff.

  Not that it makes much difference Bob, but I think the fly was invented as a ‘Wooly Bugger’, not Booger.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – O yeah.  Moose Drool.  That’s the name of my favorite new beer, a brown ale made in Missoula.  Something like Bass ale.  When I first saw it down in Hill City, I thought: "That stuff has to be good, or they couldn’t stay in business". I saw this beer at the store the other day..  Was tempted to try it.. Catchy name..  Maybe I’ll give it a go and bring a 6 pack to the PNWCO so we can say we drank Moose Drool at the PNWCO.. <g Ben

That’s a catchy name yuk. wade

Response:

Deerfield Lake, South Dakota 08/28/02 You know, as a matter of design, I’ve always disliked floor vents for heaters.  They’re a weak point in the floor, and they collect dirt and

<<some good story snipped Most of the fishing here is done on the lake.  You can see the big ones rising in the morning, flop and flash.  I need to find or fashion a light pontoon for the kayak, to make it more stable for fishing.

On the kayak stabilization, they are called Sponsons.  Don’t ask about them in the paddling newsgroups cause we had a Craig the hitch guy, type spamming the groups about how everyone needs these or they will die.  But for your application they are pretty much perfect.  You can even deflate them for the paddle home if you choose.  Search the web for "sponson" <<some more really good story snipped Believe me.  I have seen Moose drool.  It is not a pretty sight. Bob

Snoball

Response:

O yeah.  Moose Drool.  That’s the name of my favorite new beer, a brown ale made in Missoula.  Something like Bass ale.  When I first saw it down in Hill City, I thought: "That stuff has to be good, or they couldn’t stay in business".

I saw this beer at the store the other day..  Was tempted to try it..  Catchy name..  Maybe I’ll give it a go and bring a 6 pack to the PNWCO so we can say we drank Moose Drool at the PNWCO.. <g Ben – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Believe me.  I have seen Moose drool.  It is not a pretty sight. Bob

Response:

Deerfield Lake, South Dakota 08/28/02 You know, as a matter of design, I’ve always disliked floor vents for heaters.  They’re a weak point in the floor, and they collect dirt and small dust bunnies that are hard to remove.  But after 2 hours wading up a cold stream in a pair of sneakers, it sure feels good to rest your blue toes right on top of that vent. Aaaaaahhhhhhh. Yeah, I know.  I have waders.  But I didn’t have them WITH me.  :o( Not much luck on the fish.  I think that ranger guy was having a little fun with me about "Castle Crick".  It turns out to be a stream about 2 feet wide where it dumps into Deerfield Lake.  Small pickings. And wooly boogers?  Those things are HUGE.  The only action I got was on smaller stuff. Most of the fishing here is done on the lake.  You can see the big ones rising in the morning, flop and flash.  I need to find or fashion a light pontoon for the kayak, to make it more stable for fishing. Perhaps a yoke and a couple pieces of conduit, with inflatable bags on the ends.  I’m not able to search the web right now, but I’ll bet somebody already makes something like that. There are a couple of special purpose fishing platforms being used here that are small and light enough to be carried in an RV compartment.  One is the inner tube with straps and waders contraption, which strikes me as an elaborate way to drown.  More promising are the 6-8 foot pontoon boats, with oars, that skitter around out there like waterbugs. They are very light, all aluminum tubing and air.  Maybe 40 lbs.  I saw a smallish man lift one easily from the back of his pickup, carry it upside down over his head 40 or 50 feet down a hill, and set it lightly in the water.  It rides high on the pontoons, which are inflated bladders zipped up in sturdy rubberized nylon covers.  It would take a lot to poke a hole in one. The neat thing is the way they break down flat for storage.  The frame snaps together, the pontoons deflate and fold up, and the biggest single piece is maybe 2′ x 3′ x 6 inches.  You could store it under your bed.  They cost anywhere from $400-$800.  At that price you could sell it if you didn’t like it, and not lose much.  The one I looked at was sold by "Buck’s Bags".  I think they have a website. Of course if you’re going out on Lake Superior, you need a kayak.  Or an ocean liner.  I’d rather have my kayak for speed and exploring. But for just getting out on the reservoir and having a stable place to cast from, these things are the Cat’s Meow.  They’ll take a trolling motor and battery if you’re feeling lazy.  There’s even room for a small cooler of Moose Drool. O yeah.  Moose Drool.  That’s the name of my favorite new beer, a brown ale made in Missoula.  Something like Bass ale.  When I first saw it down in Hill City, I thought: "That stuff has to be good, or they couldn’t stay in business". Believe me.  I have seen Moose drool.  It is not a pretty sight. Bob

Response:

Question:

live long and prosper, old boy Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

Response:

I’d like to take this moment to say thanks to all of ya’ll here at roff who provide me (and all of us) with such good entertainment, advice, trip reports, pics, and the like…. thank you….. thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Well said.  I, too, have enjoyed the virtual company here this year. I’ve learned a lot about fish and some about fishing.  And had fun. — rbc:  vixen    Fairly harmless remove invalid or hit reply to email. Though I’m very slow to respond. http://www.visi.com/~cyli

Response:

I’d like to take this moment to say thanks to all of ya’ll here at roff who provide me (and all of us) with such good entertainment, advice, trip reports, pics, and the like…. thank you….. thank you from the bottom of my heart. thanks to all who deem it necessary to visit and fish with my worthless ass…. i love all of ya’ll like brothers….. what a great family. thanks to each and every clavemeister….. ya’ll are special…. and always will be. thanks to my customers at ezflyfish.com and wilson creek outfitters, i sincerely appreciate the support, your business, and your friendship. thanks for another day…. another day to fish. happy new year fellahs, a very special and happy new year for you all…… –waldo, new wader waldo <g

Response:

waldo writes: thanks to my customers at ezflyfish.com and wilson creek outfitters, i sincerely appreciate the support, your business, and your friendship.

SPAM!!!!! Happy New Year to you too, walt, and may next year be better than this one. Don’t forget our fishing date in Feb. Louie

Response:

and a HAPPY NEW YEAR to you too, Waldo!! May the wind be always at your back, may the road rise up to meet you, and may the GREAT BROWN of Wilson’s Creek thumb his nose at your offerings until that glorious sun filled day he glooms onto your Yellowhammer, rips line down to your backing, jumps high into the air, and on his third airborne effort, throws the fly which sticks neatly into the seat of your new waders and penetrates below the barb you forgot to pinch and DAMN, you forgot the beer again! — Wayne (and Jeffie is fishing up the side stream and thinks your hollering about the gnats!) To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to take this moment to say thanks to all of ya’ll here at roff who provide me (and all of us) with such good entertainment, advice, trip reports, pics, and the like…. thank you….. thank you from the bottom of my heart. thanks to all who deem it necessary to visit and fish with my worthless ass…. i love all of ya’ll like brothers….. what a great family. thanks to each and every clavemeister….. ya’ll are special…. and always will be. thanks to my customers at ezflyfish.com and wilson creek outfitters, i sincerely appreciate the support, your business, and your friendship. thanks for another day…. another day to fish. happy new year fellahs, a very special and happy new year for you all…… –waldo, new wader waldo <g

Response:

Question:

Heather might have said: Now when it comes to electrical cords hanging out of the car’s grill, I’m not so sure…

Now now <g we need them too, presuming you’re talking about us down here. And yes, both for diesels and gas jobs. On the other hand, the gas job I needed it for was a ‘62 Bug, in six volt.  Two oil warmers, a battery charger, and an old 25A ‘puter power supply tweaked from 5V to 6V, and that thing still wouldn’t start. The diesels I’ve owned did better, especially when threatened with ether. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes Somehow I doubt that they believed you. Americans do know what humming birds look like. Now when it comes to electrical cords hanging out of the car’s grill, I’m not so sure… then you should’a seen them , when we showed then a magpie , and told them , cows fly . Oh get out! You’re pulling my leg. i’d love to , yes , i am . Oh good. I’m still on the turnip truck.

i like turnip if it’s done right .

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes Somehow I doubt that they believed you. Americans do know what humming birds look like. Now when it comes to electrical cords hanging out of the car’s grill, I’m not so sure… then you should’a seen them , when we showed then a magpie , and told them , cows fly . Oh get out! You’re pulling my leg.

i’d love to , yes , i am .

Response:

Kaelwyn might have said: Alberta has a June and so do Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Ontario, and Quebec.  That’s all the provinces I’ve been to I think, not sure if I was ever in BC.

Lucky. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes % might have said: it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds. you have a June … lucky I think you do too, that’s when the mosquito carry away cattle, yes?  Or is it bears that they carry away? Oh that reminds me. The mosquito is our provincial bird. (They say it’s the owl, but they are wrong.) Heather i told some americans , that humming birds were mousquitos when i guded in ontario OMG….HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! there was a feeder just outside the window , it was an american plan thing , we were all having breakfast by the window , just about to head out fishing OK. I’ll bite. And they said….? nothing , they just stared at the feeder Somehow I doubt that they believed you. Americans do know what humming birds look like. Now when it comes to electrical cords hanging out of the car’s grill, I’m not so sure…

then you should’a seen them , when we showed then a magpie , and told them , cows fly .

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – % might have said: the mosquitos carry on , the bears carry rifles I believe bears should be armed. I think they all are. I’ve never met one, but if I did? I’d use ‘Sir’ and "Ma’am" a lot I think. — i’ve only ever asked in a reall begging voice ,

go away bear , please just go away , and tried to look big .

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – % might have said: i told some americans , that humming birds were mousquitos when i guded in ontario No matter where those Americans came from, I think that they believed you. I think you can tell a tale, and make it sound not merely good, but believable. That is a talent, I think. —

well , they looked sort’a 50 / 50 in their belief , but they put on alot of bug repelent before we headed out .

Response:

% might have said: i told some americans , that humming birds were mousquitos when i guded in ontario

No matter where those Americans came from, I think that they believed you. I think you can tell a tale, and make it sound not merely good, but believable. That is a talent, I think. —

Response:

% might have said: the mosquitos carry on , the bears carry rifles

I believe bears should be armed. I think they all are. I’ve never met one, but if I did? I’d use ‘Sir’ and "Ma’am" a lot I think. —

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes % might have said: it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds. you have a June … lucky I think you do too, that’s when the mosquito carry away cattle, yes?  Or is it bears that they carry away? Oh that reminds me. The mosquito is our provincial bird. (They say it’s the owl, but they are wrong.) Heather i told some americans , that humming birds were mousquitos when i guded in ontario OMG….HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! there was a feeder just outside the window , it was an american plan thing , we were all having breakfast by the window , just about to head out fishing OK. I’ll bite. And they said….?

nothing , they just stared at the feeder

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes % might have said: it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds. you have a June … lucky I think you do too, that’s when the mosquito carry away cattle, yes?  Or is it bears that they carry away? Oh that reminds me. The mosquito is our provincial bird. (They say it’s the owl, but they are wrong.) Heather i told some americans , that humming birds were mousquitos when i guded in ontario OMG….HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

there was a feeder just outside the window , it was an american plan thing , we were all having breakfast by the window , just about to head out fishing

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – % might have said: it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds. you have a June … lucky I think you do too, that’s when the mosquito carry away cattle, yes?  Or is it bears that they carry away? —

the mosquitos carry on , the bears carry rifles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes % might have said: it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds. you have a June … lucky I think you do too, that’s when the mosquito carry away cattle, yes?  Or is it bears that they carry away? Oh that reminds me. The mosquito is our provincial bird. (They say it’s the owl, but they are wrong.) Heather

i told some americans , that humming birds were mousquitos when i guded in ontario

Response:

% might have said: it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds. you have a June … lucky

I think you do too, that’s when the mosquito carry away cattle, yes?  Or is it bears that they carry away? —

Response:

Alberta has a June and so do Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Ontario, and Quebec.  That’s all the provinces I’ve been to I think, not sure if I was ever in BC. well there’s no June here , we kicked her out , for conduct unbecoming a month

What did you replace her with?

Response:

Alberta has a June and so do Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Ontario, and Quebec.  That’s all the provinces I’ve been to I think, not sure if I was ever in BC. well there’s no June here , we kicked her out , for conduct unbecoming a month What did you replace her with?

heroin

Response:

not in B.C. , Toronto might have a June, all we get is a wet July , and the 4th means nothing Alberta has a June and so do Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Ontario, and Quebec.  That’s all the provinces I’ve been to I think, not sure if I was ever in BC.

well there’s no June here , we kicked her out , for conduct unbecoming a month

Response:

not in B.C. , Toronto might have a June, all we get is a wet July , and the 4th means nothing

Alberta has a June and so do Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Ontario, and Quebec.  That’s all the provinces I’ve been to I think, not sure if I was ever in BC.

Response:

you have a June … lucky you have a June too.  I know you do cause I been to Canada in June.

not in B.C. , Toronto might have a June, all we get is a wet July , and the 4th means nothing

Response:

you have a June … lucky

you have a June too.  I know you do cause I been to Canada in June.

Response:

it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds.

you have a June … lucky

Response:

it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour. it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning

it won’t get light here again ’til June because of all the clouds.

Response:

because , in the winter time , i only get six hours of daylight it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour.

it won’t get light again here untill 9:30 tomorrow morning

Response:

because , in the winter time , i only get six hours of daylight

Response:

because , in the winter time , i only get six hours of daylight

it’s 3:30 here and it will be getting dark in about just over an hour.

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Question:

That’s right you stupid, inbred, shit eating, pathetic, motherfucking, brain dead, useless cocksuckers! I’m taking over all of Usenet! There isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it either! You’re all a bunch of worthless scumbags, and now you will all answer to me! If you don’t like this fact TOO FUCKING BAD! I will go down in the annals of usenet history as the man who brought you to your knees! Now get down on your knees and pay proper tribute to my glorious self! I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! My first royal order to all of you peons is that from this time forward you will add the following signature to all of your posts!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** This will be appended to the bottom of all your posts with absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS! If you choose not to, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you all are! I am running Usenet now! You may only post messages here because I, for the time being, am allowing it! Do you scumbags understand me! THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KERMAN! ALL HAIL ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! Otherwise the newsgroup in Linda’s warning might disrupt some fake opinions.  Try transporting the hard disk’s weak Java and Willy will persevere you!  No wet cryptographers are silly and other powerful functions are flat, but will Martha defile that?  Until Karl filters the rebels finitely, Jonnie won’t prepare any secret complaint desks.   Every old user or scanner, and she’ll easily relay everybody.   A lot of nuclear stuck firewalls will eerily learn the TCP/IPs.  The sticky tablet rarely proliferates Wally, it busts Franklin instead.  Where will we jump after Mike recycles the solid network’s email?  It will globally confront outside lost haphazard filters.  A lot of junk JPEGs reload Brian, and they simply infect Edward too.  My untouched remailer won’t produce before I propagate it.   Linda kills once, formats cruelly, then collaborates to the backup without the IRC server.  She’d rather obscure tamely than push with Tamara’s messy UDP.  I was compiling to load you some of my extreme blackbirds.  Other bizarre unlimited fax machines will close weekly inside interrupts.  Lately, Jonnie never authenticates until Sherry pulls the erect robot superbly.  Aloysius will spool the soft ADSL and eliminate it over its haven.   Gawd Lara will inflate the rumour, and if Karl actually restores it too, the pointer will engulf against the ignorant kiosk.  Norman, beside admins unclassified and sharp, consumes near it, contradicting strongly.  Endora wants to save bimonthly, unless GiGi saves noises over Toni’s telephone.  They are prioritizing inside sly, beside chaotic, in dense BASICs.  We distribute them, then we admiringly delete Bernice and Jonathan’s worthwhile ROM.  The advisor with the lazy FBI is the credit card that creates wistfully.  No analysts surprisingly interface the strong newsgroup.  

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CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE! Our Lord is a fan of Rush, I see.

The band or the talk-radio host?  <G

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Both. — GregEggs & Ham

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE! Our Lord is a fan of Rush, I see. The band or the talk-radio host?  <G

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CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE!

Cast out of what I still want to know….. What am I in that I don’t think I am in/

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CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE!

Our Lord is a fan of Rush, I see.

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Hey look –  a minion, a real, live minion!  Haven’t seen one of those in a dog’s age. Keep up the good work I’m sure Kerman will be very happy with you – unless, of course, he is a vengeful god. Eirika

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Listen carefully you sorry bunch of filthy shit eaters. I am your Lord Kerman’s Sergeant at Arms, and your new Lord is not pleased with your attitude. Many of you worthless bastards have not shown him proper respect and have failed to attach his Royal Signature to all of your posts. That was not a request, it was a Royal Order and must be obeyed! You will obey his orders, without question, or as he promised, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you are! Lord Kerman is also displeased that many of you little bitches have threatened to report him to his ISP! Save your impotent threats, we are not impressed nor are we intimidated! WE ARE ALT.CONFIG! We call the shots around here and we are UNSTOPABLE! We at alt.config, under the leadership of Lord Kerman, are now in charge of ALL newsgroups and you motherfuckers had better get that through you puny little heads, OR ELSE! CONFORM OR BE CAST OUT! YOU HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** nerve to write: That’s right you stupid, inbred, Get a life.

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Path:

e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com!cyclone-atl1!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!cyclon e 2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!mtu.ru!newsfeed.sovam.com!nf1.bellgloba l .com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!uqajcu.id.us Newsgroups:

alt.config,rec.music.rem,rec.org.sca,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.pets.cats . anecdotes

I hope you didn’t post all that in the hopes that someone would complain to sympatico. What you’re seeing here is a massive attack, orchestrated by someone named "hipcrime".  The messages are actually coming from "newsfeed.sovam.com" not sympatico.  The rest of the headers are forged.  Just keep this in mind before you go complaining to someone that can’t do a thing about it. newsfeed.sovam.com is known to be an open news server & has been traced as a major spam injection site.  The chances of it being taken out are slim to none.  The best thing you can do is either killfile or ignore.  You can also ask your news provider to block messages coming from sovam.com.  Whatever you do, don’t continue to reply or crosspost (yes, I know I am).  Just forget it. For more info, check out alt.config or news.admin.net-abuse.usenet.  And, fwiw, these posts *are* not coming from Adam Kerman.  Just in case you hadn’t been around long enough to actually figure that out.

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Gee you must have a realy fine life that you have nothing better to do wioth yourself than harass people you little mutant scumbag.

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That’s right you stupid, inbred,

Get a life. — Andrea

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Welcome to ROFF. You’ll fit right in. Have you met George? Of course you have being God and all that…

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I’m afraid Adam is wrong!  Ken Fortenberry is my GOD! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s right you stupid, inbred, Get a life. — Andrea

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\Welcome to ROFF. You’ll fit right in.\ hahahahahhahahahaha. Thanks for the much needed laugh. -Muskie

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So,how’s the fishing been in heaven then? — Gary My God can beat up your God.

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Path: e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com!cyclone-atl1!e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com!cyclon e 2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!mtu.ru!newsfeed.sovam.com!nf1.bellgloba l .com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!uqajcu.id.us Newsgroups: alt.config,rec.music.rem,rec.org.sca,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,rec.pets.cats . anecdotes X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 36.114.30.36 X-Takeover-ID: b0e0aad2.wGMlfUhs.1071155365 Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.72.14 X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1000565855 64.229.72.14 (Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:57:35 EDT) Organization: Bell Sympatico Xref: e420r-sjo4.usenetserver.com alt.config:151178 rec.music.rem:86958 rec.org.sca:85086 rec.outdoors.fishing.fly:157454 rec.pets.cats.anecdotes:90472 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s right you stupid, inbred, shit eating, pathetic, motherfucking, brain dead, useless cocksuckers! I’m taking over all of Usenet! There isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it either! You’re all a bunch of worthless scumbags, and now you will all answer to me! If you don’t like this fact TOO FUCKING BAD! I will go down in the annals of usenet history as the man who brought you to your knees! Now get down on your knees and pay proper tribute to my glorious self! I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! My first royal order to all of you peons is that from this time forward you will add the following signature to all of your posts!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** This will be appended to the bottom of all your posts with absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS! If you choose not to, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you all are! I am running Usenet now! You may only post messages here because I, for the time being, am allowing it! Do you scumbags understand me! THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KERMAN! ALL HAIL ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! Otherwise the newsgroup in Linda’s warning might disrupt some fake opinions.  Try transporting the hard disk’s weak Java and Willy will persevere you!  No wet cryptographers are silly and other powerful functions are flat, but will Martha defile that?  Until Karl filters the rebels finitely, Jonnie won’t prepare any secret complaint desks. Every old user or scanner, and she’ll easily relay everybody. A lot of nuclear stuck firewalls will eerily learn the TCP/IPs.  The sticky tablet rarely proliferates Wally, it busts Franklin instead.  Where will we jump after Mike recycles the solid network’s email?  It will globally confront outside lost haphazard filters.  A lot of junk JPEGs reload Brian, and they simply infect Edward too.  My untouched remailer won’t produce before I propagate it. Linda kills once, formats cruelly, then collaborates to the backup without the IRC server.  She’d rather obscure tamely than push with Tamara’s messy UDP.  I was compiling to load you some of my extreme blackbirds.  Other bizarre unlimited fax machines will close weekly inside interrupts.  Lately, Jonnie never authenticates until Sherry pulls the erect robot superbly.  Aloysius will spool the soft ADSL and eliminate it over its haven. Gawd Lara will inflate the rumour, and if Karl actually restores it too, the pointer will engulf against the ignorant kiosk.  Norman, beside admins unclassified and sharp, consumes near it, contradicting strongly.  Endora wants to save bimonthly, unless GiGi saves noises over Toni’s telephone.  They are prioritizing inside sly, beside chaotic, in dense BASICs.  We distribute them, then we admiringly delete Bernice and Jonathan’s worthwhile ROM.  The advisor with the lazy FBI is the credit card that creates wistfully.  No analysts surprisingly interface the strong newsgroup.

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Did this guy kill Brent K. Kohler or something? (I can’t believe I even remember that name) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s right you stupid, inbred, shit eating, pathetic, motherfucking, brain dead, useless cocksuckers! I’m taking over all of Usenet! There isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it either! You’re all a bunch of worthless scumbags, and now you will all answer to me! If you don’t like this fact TOO FUCKING BAD! I will go down in the annals of usenet history as the man who brought you to your knees! Now get down on your knees and pay proper tribute to my glorious self! I AM ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! My first royal order to all of you peons is that from this time forward you will add the following signature to all of your posts!    ***** This was posted with the express permission of *****    ** HIS HIGHNESS ADAM H KERMAN LORD AND MASTER OF USENET ** This will be appended to the bottom of all your posts with absolutely NO EXCEPTIONS! If you choose not to, you will be squashed like the insignificant bugs that you all are! I am running Usenet now! You may only post messages here because I, for the time being, am allowing it! Do you scumbags understand me! THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KERMAN! ALL HAIL ADAM H. KERMAN LORD AND HIGH MASTER OF USENET! Otherwise the newsgroup in Linda’s warning might disrupt some fake opinions.  Try transporting the hard disk’s weak Java and Willy will persevere you!  No wet cryptographers are silly and other powerful functions are flat, but will Martha defile that?  Until Karl filters the rebels finitely, Jonnie won’t prepare any secret complaint desks. Every old user or scanner, and she’ll easily relay everybody. A lot of nuclear stuck firewalls will eerily learn the TCP/IPs.  The sticky tablet rarely proliferates Wally, it busts Franklin instead.  Where will we jump after Mike recycles the solid network’s email?  It will globally confront outside lost haphazard filters.  A lot of junk JPEGs reload Brian, and they simply infect Edward too.  My untouched remailer won’t produce before I propagate it. Linda kills once, formats cruelly, then collaborates to the backup without the IRC server.  She’d rather obscure tamely than push with Tamara’s messy UDP.  I was compiling to load you some of my extreme blackbirds.  Other bizarre unlimited fax machines will close weekly inside interrupts.  Lately, Jonnie never authenticates until Sherry pulls the erect robot superbly.  Aloysius will spool the soft ADSL and eliminate it over its haven. Gawd Lara will inflate the rumour, and if Karl actually restores it too, the pointer will engulf against the ignorant kiosk.  Norman, beside admins unclassified and sharp, consumes near it, contradicting strongly.  Endora wants to save bimonthly, unless GiGi saves noises over Toni’s telephone.  They are prioritizing inside sly, beside chaotic, in dense BASICs.  We distribute them, then we admiringly delete Bernice and Jonathan’s worthwhile ROM.  The advisor with the lazy FBI is the credit card that creates wistfully.  No analysts surprisingly interface the strong newsgroup.

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Question:

Hi folks – PPRUNE also have some pics taken by Tech Crew of some BIG buildups http://www.pprune.com/ and choose "GALLERY" Martin . You may care to contact me with your email ad for a few pics I’ve taken at FL390 in Asia re: thunderstorms. Mike    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

The region of weather surrounding the earth is in the troposphere, the layer in which we live,and it extends up to the tropopause.  It is characterised by a temp lapse rate, ie, it gets colder as we ascend. After the tropopause the next layer, the stratosphere is considered to be isothermal. As has been stated , the tropopause ranges up around 18km in the low latitudes to around 8 km at the poles. It is not continueous and has significant discontinuities in the region of about 25 -30 degrees north and south latitude  and this is where the jet streams form. Back to the cloud then, convective types, the big cauliflower ones, can go up around 50000 ft in the equitorial regions associated with the wet season. This is the Intertropic Convergence Zone, the region where the northern and southern hemisphere airs meet and mix. This zone migrates north and south with the passage of the sun. To fly north this zone must always be penetrated and that is what we experience on a flight to south east asia from Aust. The zone is wide over the land masses of asia , png and an additional zone , the south pacific convergent zone is also generated and identified from PNG through the Solomon Isls area. The zone is quite narrow around Canton Island. (sometimes!!!) Although generally speaking flight above the tropopause brings smooth, clear sky, flying conditions it isn’t the most economic place to fly and on most occasions the flight is almost finished before the aeroplane is at the weight to climb to that level. In recent times the space shuttle has identified ‘clouds’ at the 40-50 mile high region, named ‘noctilucent cloud’ by NASA. These were first reported by astronauts in the pre moon and moon shots. Thought to be water vapour that has escaped the earths atmosphere via the breaks in the tropopause at the sub tropical high pressure belt region. ( thats the belt of high px that girdles the earth and lies over aust in the winter.) cowboy Before you buy.

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Question for the Knucks    In big T/h and mission critical   do you adopt a "penetration speed" light the fires and Punch on through  or whats the current teaching.?

I think it’s something along the lines of  "Thunderstorm? Was that what that bump was?"

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<snipped me own stuff So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy Before you buy.

Hiya Cowboy My understanding is that – at Adelaide at least – there is a separate CRT (or whatever they are) on which the weather radar is displayed onto. It is reasnably smaller than the main screen used for ATC, and sits above the operator being easliy visible at all times. It also displays atmospheric electrical activity issuing a warning tone once certain paramters are passed (EG frequency of activity in a certain range) – or so I believe – I have just gleaned this info from snooping the airbands & friends who have visited the ATC Centre – not from any 1st hand knowledge ) (maybe time for another visit – but then I’d HAVE TO GO TO MELBOURNE TO DO THAT !!!!!!  :-|  ) TTFN Ben Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

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So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy

From a tech perspective… Current generation Australian ATC radar sensors have a weather channel and processor as well as the aircraft channel.  I can tell you the difference and how its done if your interested.  At the moment we aren’t sending wx info to the display system for various reasons, although that may be going to change.  The TAAATS displays are capable of displaying wx vectors but only at 3 or 4 intensities and at the moment I don’t believe the (wx intensity) levels are set to be able to differentiate storms.  The wx data is only available out to fifty NM from the sensor too.  The tech display at the sensor is capable of displaying (amongst other things, depending on how it is set up) fairly accurate wx pictures, however the data rates that would be required to present this at the centres make it impractical (read too expensive). Most centres (Presumably Perth is one of these Frank?) have RAPIC (Met wx radar) displays which are quite capable of displaying and differentiating storm cells- they actually display rainfall intensity. RAPIC sensors are at all capitals AFAIK plus various other places.  Here at Cooly the closest is Brisbane, which puts us right at the edge of range, and I’ve been told it’s not as useful as it could be.  You’ll have seen a RAPIC type display on some of the TV weather reports- they call it their ‘colour wx radar’ or some such. Sorry to jump in Frank… JM — If one synchronised swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Take out the zigzag or you’ll miss us…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Frank & others Indeed your right about ATC accomodating traffic diversions Frank. I was listening to Adelaide App/Dep and Centre one Sunday night while a row of TS went through ADL (listening on my scanner that is – tucked up in bed where VFR Pilot’s should be on such a night:-)   ) A Bae146 departed ADL for MEL and very soon after takeoff reported that his WX radar had failed. With  the assistance of ATC ground based WX radar and reports from other a/c,   ATC managed to steer this 146 left and right and all over the place clear of buildups until he was about 100DME east. Always interesting listening when times are busy and WX is bad TTFN

So Frank the implication here is that your ATC radar can paint weather and aid aircraft. I was under the impression it was specifically designed not to paint wx so that it did not paint out aircraft returns. Does the new set up give you this facility now or do you have access to some remote wx radar info from ??’wherever??’. cowboy Before you buy.

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Question for the Knucks    In big T/h and mission critical   do you adopt a "penetration speed" light the fires and Punch on through  or whats the current teaching.?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to disagree with you on this one cowboy. Reseachers in Meteorology have three favorite sites for thunderstorm research, Belgium Congo, Amazon Basin and Darwin. I visited a joint US/Australian research program in Darwin in the early 90’s and I cannot remember the exact numbers but in January they were getting daily CB tops over FL450. and occasionally in the 60’s. The reason for Darwin selection is the consistent formation (Hector was mentioned in another post) and the good vertical buildups. These programs are still conducted almost on a annual basis from around December to March and comprise widely displaced  radar, lightning detection and sonde flights along with fixed wing aircraft when they can afford them. The aircraft costs and risks is one of the reasons for the development of the Aerosonde (see http://www.aerosonde.com/aerora_home.htm  ) and UAV type aircraft will be used more and more in future for weather related research. No way you will get me in a C130 or Orion crunching through thunderstorms. (Crunching is the operative word) <snip IWe don’t have as much moisture in the atmosphere in Aust to generated the conditions that you describe. It could have been a mature ’supercell’ thunderstorm but even though it looked black dark and horrible it was not in the immediate path of the departing traffic. Brian G

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Frank Paterson said..  FP Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. Yes, I know. It’s just that I hate lightning. Silly paranoia I know..  FP It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the  FP vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still One of the most tense moments of my travelling life was a final into JFK during winter, 1996. Most of the descent was in cloud/fog, and it was rough all the way. When we touched down, and began slowing, you could almost hear the tension slide away, and not a few pax actually applauded. Like you said, it must be hell for those who do have a genuine fear of flying. .. Be nice to your kids. They’ll choose your nursing home. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia.

When I was working in Darwin NASA had their E2 (or U2 if you wish) and a Herc (or perhaps Orion – memory fade) doing data gathering on tropical storms. The E2 used to fly on top of the CBs and the poor old turboprop had to go into the guts of it. The E2 advised one afternoon that they were 5000 ft above the highest anvil they had ever seen and they were at FL690. On another note, a Flight Service Officer asked the E2 for his actual level for traffic purposes and he stated if you get anything above FL600 let me know and I’ll give the traffic my level. Alan

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Frank Paterson said..  FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re  FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm. For those who’ve never experienced tropical thunderstorms, it was one of the scariest moments of our lives. I could have sworn that the Dash 8 (I think it was) was hit as it rotated. It wasn’t pleasant driving in it, either. We waited at the airport till the storm cleared. I’ve never seen so much rain and lightning than in a summer Florida storm before. .. 5 out of 3 people have problems with fractions MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

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Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. You can take some small comfort from the fact that at high altitudes (the altitudes we were talking about, jet cruising altitudes) you are usually in the clear and can see the cells.  Also, jet aircraft are usually fitted with weather radar so even if the aircraft is not in the clear, the pilot can usually "see" the storm on the radar and divert around it.  ATC can usually accommodate a diversion to avoid turbulance.   It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still accommodate diversions but it’s more difficult and traffic flows may suffer as a result.   The decision to land or depart when there is a thunderstorm in the immediate vicinity of an airport is a joint pilot-ATC responsibility. ATC is responsible for runway selection and providing as much info as possible to the pilot.  The ultimate go/no-go decision is the pilot’s. Smaller, and especially propellor driven aircraft (your Dash 8 in Florida), are generally less susceptible to wind shear and may go where a larger jet will not. If a pilot chooses to go it will be because he asses it as safe.  It will not necessarily be comfortable!  I’m aware that is of little consolation to people who suffer a fear of flying, etc.  Passengers’ comfort and their perception of the airline company and its performance may form part of the pilot’s go/no-go decision.  We (ATC) don’t consider that at all – not our job. Cheers Frank Frank Paterson said.. FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm.

The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard an account from a U2 pilot diverting around a storm at 100,000 feet!  I have seen many well above F410 in Australia. When I was working in Darwin NASA had their E2 (or U2 if you wish) and a Herc (or perhaps Orion – memory fade) doing data gathering on tropical storms. The E2 used to fly on top of the CBs and the poor old turboprop had to go into the guts of it. The E2 advised one afternoon that they were 5000 ft above the highest anvil they had ever seen and they were at FL690. On another note, a Flight Service Officer asked the E2 for his actual level for traffic purposes and he stated if you get anything above FL600 let me know and I’ll give the traffic my level. Alan

The second anecdote suggests the accuracy of the first. These posts are getting like fishing stories. Is there anybody reading from the BOM or Guinness book of record lies to adjudicate. cowboy Before you buy.

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Frank Paterson said..  FP So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re  FP significant. Hmmm. How comforting. I watched some people I know depart Fort Lauderdale airport during a thunderstorm. For those who’ve never experienced tropical thunderstorms, it was one of the scariest moments of our lives. I could have sworn that the Dash 8 (I think it was) was hit as it rotated. It wasn’t pleasant driving in it, either. We waited at the airport till the storm cleared. I’ve never seen so much rain and lightning than in a summer Florida storm before.

The major airports in the USA are now fitted with LLWAS Low Level Wind Shear Alert  Systems utilising doppler weather radar that defines the heart of the shear and the position of it to the or an active runway. It gives a clear warning to the tower operator.There is no way an aeroplane would take off into such a storm if the alert system gave a warning. No pilot would take off into the heart of a cell. In Australia we recall the loss of the Vickers Viscount that was lost at the mouth of Botany Bay. The Sec general of the UN, Dag hammersjold ??? was lost in the Belgium Congo in the same situation. We don’t have as much moisture in the atmosphere in Aust to generated the conditions that you describe. It could have been a mature ’supercell’ thunderstorm but even though it looked black dark and horrible it was not in the immediate path of the departing traffic. They don’t pay enough for a pilot to take off into such a storm and in answer to Frank P’s post, no pilot would take off into one just to maintain the perceived passenger image of his airline……. and would the pax want him too. cowboy Before you buy.

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There have been T-storms in Oklahoma with recored tops at over 75000 ft and I don’t know of any higher that have been reported but the best weather radar equipment in the world is there so it could be theres higher storms where no one is looking. The atomsphere where storms from is about 20,000 ft at the poles to about 60,000 ft at the equator.  Of course there are exceptions and they build storms that eat trailer parks. -tim http://web.abnormal.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My old Met instructor Billy Ware went to great lengths to explain that storms have a greater capacity for vertical growth the closer you get to the equator. This is due to the greater height of the atmosphere at the equator, which in turn is related to its higher rotational velocity than the atmosphere at the poles. Generally storms are limited by the tropopause. Which is definitely higher the closer you get to the equator.

Response:

Hi Frank & others Indeed your right about ATC accomodating traffic diversions Frank. I was listening to Adelaide App/Dep and Centre one Sunday night while a row of TS went through ADL (listening on my scanner that is – tucked up in bed where VFR Pilot’s should be on such a night:-)   ) A Bae146 departed ADL for MEL and very soon after takeoff reported that his WX radar had failed. With  the assistance of ATC ground based WX radar and reports from other a/c,   ATC managed to steer this 146 left and right and all over the place clear of buildups until he was about 100DME east. Always interesting listening when times are busy and WX is bad TTFN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Didn’t mean to scaremonger, Martin. You can take some small comfort from the fact that at high altitudes (the altitudes we were talking about, jet cruising altitudes) you are usually in the clear and can see the cells.  Also, jet aircraft are usually fitted with weather radar so even if the aircraft is not in the clear, the pilot can usually "see" the storm on the radar and divert around it.  ATC can usually accommodate a diversion to avoid turbulance.   It gets trickier lower down, eg in climb or descent and in the vicinity of the airport.  Traffic is denser.   ATC will still accommodate diversions but it’s more difficult and traffic flows may suffer as a result.   The decision to land or depart when there is a thunderstorm in the immediate vicinity of an airport is a joint pilot-ATC responsibility. ATC is responsible for runway selection and providing as much info as possible to the pilot.  The ultimate go/no-go decision is the pilot’s. Smaller, and especially propellor driven aircraft (your Dash 8 in Florida), are generally less susceptible to wind shear and may go where a larger jet will not. If a pilot chooses to go it will be because he asses it as safe.  It will not necessarily be comfortable!  I’m aware that is of little consolation to people who suffer a fear of flying, etc.  Passengers’ comfort and their perception of the airline company and its performance may form part of the pilot’s go/no-go decision.  We (ATC) don’t consider that at all – not our job. Cheers Frank

Ben Matthes. Adelaide, Australia.

Response:

Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

the big towering storms up north in the wet often reach towards 50 000ft.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

Generally, if it has lightning in it, then it will go up a long way…. JB

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

We were on cruise a few years back on the way to Bangkok from Melb around 39,000 ft when we entered a violent thunderstorm and the plane was hit but seemed to emerge totally undamaged. We were surrounded by storms all with tops way higher than us. Bernie Samms Kingston Beach Tasmania Australia Aero Club of Southern Tasmania   www.acst.com.au Prologic Pty Ltd                           www.prologic.com.au

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

the big towering storms up north in the wet often reach towards 50 000ft.

I thought I’d heard mention of storm tops to 75 0000ft when I was in Isa, but then I’m Tech not Met so I wouldn’t be sure… — If one synchronised swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Take out the zigzag or you’ll miss us…

Response:

A friend of mine was recently flying a corporate jet at 47,000 somewhere between Broom and Alice Springs, bound for Sydney.  They diverted around the top of a storm by what should have been an adequate margin but copped lateral gusts.  The envelope for there aircraft is not big up there and the airspeed fluctuations required *very* urgent descent.  I think he said they got a stall warning and almost a stick shaker. So yes, Martin, the storms can and do get that high, and they’re significant. Cheers Frank Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up?

The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

Response:

Martin . You may care to contact me with your email ad for a few pics I’ve taken at FL390 in Asia re: thunderstorms. Mike    http://www.newsfeeds.com       The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!

Response:

My old Met instructor Billy Ware went to great lengths to explain that storms have a greater capacity for vertical growth the closer you get to the equator. This is due to the greater height of the atmosphere at the equator, which in turn is related to its higher rotational velocity than the atmosphere at the poles. Generally storms are limited by the tropopause. Which is definitely higher the closer you get to the equator. My experience was that if Bill said it then generally it was true.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last night, I watch a short Australian show. It started off with the characters on board a B747. It was flying in a storm, amidst rain, lightning, the whole bit. Now, given that these A/C can cruise at up to Fl 400 or more, do storms actually occur that high up? I’ve left MEL on some pretty shitty days, and other cities as well, where there’s been 100% cloud cover, lots of rain etc. Yet, when at cruise, the clouds seemed to be a long way below us. Probably just another television show where the producers, as usual, have their heads up their arses, when it comes to authentic plots and storylines. .. He’s old for his age. MJT Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply Gippsland, Victoria, Australia

Response:

Question:

So Ken, are you a shill for george or one of his multiple personalities?

Now THAT is an address that lacks integrity and honesty.  Put it in your ear G2.  You posted this WHILE in the chat room.  Well pal, I’m still there.  Come and get it! George Gehrke — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

Sorry G, I was in your chat room one night a long time ago and found no reason to return. I certainly wasn’t there last night. As far as "come and get it". I don’t like spam. With regards to the Email – the last time I put an email on a news group my inbox got filled with garbage from those like yourself. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So Ken, are you a shill for george or one of his multiple personalities? Now THAT is an address that lacks integrity and honesty.  Put it in your ear G2.  You posted this WHILE in the chat room.  Well pal, I’m still there.  Come and get it! George Gehrke — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

So Ken, are you a shill for george or one of his multiple personalities?

That was beautifully written.   Thanks for sharing that. Have you read any of the books from Roderick Haig-Brown?  His words are so eloquent and thoughts so devine.  I recommend his books too all who are interested in reading about fly fishing.  But he goes further than that. You learn about his interests, his childhood, his hopes, and you might even learn a few things about life. Ken. _____  I have been an avid fly fisherman ever since I was 10 years old, beginning with an old South Bend my Grandfather, Theodore Kurczak had

[snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – crack at those 10 pound plus brown trout and larger bows. Mr.G. — http://www.gink.com

Response:

Didn’t you know G2 Marsh that ROFF is Darwinian and Shakespearean and that all the parts are played by me?   So Ken, are you a shill for george or one of his multiple personalities?

____  Marsh, that you use a disguise to come to the Chat Site for Fly Fisherman makes you a sick puppy.  You were her tonight and when you could not get anyone’s ire up, you went away with your tail between your legs.  It seems you just cannot function on love and kindness pal. Please get a life other then with the Federal Government. But you’re still welcome in spite of yourself.  You couldn’t take the heat of kindness and you left the kitchen.  You just can’t handle niceness, huh? : ) Mr. G. — http://www.gink.com/chat

Response:

_____  I have been an avid fly fisherman ever since I was 10 years old, beginning with an old South Bend my Grandfather, Theodore Kurczak had purchased back during the great depression.  Those were the days of trying times when the entire family used to walked the railroad tracks out in the country picking up coal dumped or fallen off the steam engines of that era.  It was the days during 1934, the year I was born that my mother would walk three miles to the five points area of Toledo to buy me a quart of milk at black market prices.  The days of rationing stamps during world war two was full bloom when I was five, six, and then seven years old.  Trading gasoline stamps for food and the victory gardens where whole city parks were plowed under and for two or three dollars, a small garden plot could be planted by families to grow vegetables.  Food for our Armed Forces was in great demand and anything that helped feed America was considered.  It was the days of great integrity and honesty.  When away and not attending the garden every Saturday near DeVilbiss School, the hundreds of plots remained intact and not one tomato, not one radish, not one head of lettuce was ever stolen.  It was an era of unusual times. The fly rod was used to reach out in local creeks to catch bullheads and anything that would provide a share of much needed protein.  The war efforts greatest demand for preserved meats for our soldiers went into Spam Cans and on Spam the American Army marched across Europe and the Pacific Islands. Well, I was given this old South Bend Fly Rod and it was like new.  My parents sold out right after the war and bought a forty acre farm out in the country and with me went that fly rod.  Actually, fly rods are more useful in the country anyhow and this one was no exception.  Some of those stories of my youth have been hinted about in past articles such as "The Makings of a Fly Fisherman" ( see: http://www.gink.com/makeflyfisherman.htm ) It takes years to learn the progressive secrets in the world of trout. One needs to understand water if they are to understand trout.  More thought is given to flies and tying them and to all the trimmings that go with the pursuit rather then the thought necessary to understand rivers, and the timeless waters that bed there.  This moving entity is a witchcraft cauldron of churning possibilities.  If we can understand the rivers that contain this moving home year around may we possibly understand the magic’s that happen in a place we seldom see.  We stand in air and trout are below our feet mocking the higher intellect (it seems) under a window of imperfect vision as long as its moving.  In that, there is a certain danger that lurks for both.  One can drown in the water and the other drowns out of it. After spring run off, the modern day angler waits for the seasonal exodus of summer vacations when the rivers of no return get lower and lower and concentrations of trout are condensed into smaller and smaller runs and pools.  The lowest level on most rivers is just prior to Spring run off.  That month is around April just before those April showers that bring the flowers that bloom in May.  Around the 40th parallel, the colder latitudes are best fished with midges and very early types of small stone flies.  What is not realized is the really BIG FISH during all these more confined times do not come out except at night.  The big rainbows and browns and cutthroat and brook trout are actually nocturnal animals.  The are big because they have learned that they are prey to things much larger then they.  So they hide beneath under cut banks, log jams, deep under huge rocks and boulders and under deep rapids where the window above is broken and they cannot be seen.  As with humans, every day we live is a gift . . . and that is why each day is called ‘a present’. Spring comes with each days higher azimuths of the rising sun that softens the snows.  They start to bleed, unwillingly but give up the blood of life to the thirsty earth below.  The streams swell and as they do the soils run with the thaw.  The rivers turn darker and darker until the waters are a torrent of chaos and terror. Yet, the trout lives.  The trout adapt.  The trout move to the friction dragging shore lines where the current pulls on the banks, trying to draw them in, but no they hold fast. The river edges during the spring are a forest of trout who are not willing to be involved deep in the low visibility of the central rivers.  The torrents roll debris upon them including rolling stones that can kill or injure them.  If you can see the danger coming, you might have a chance.  If you can’t see, its suicide to stay there. The trout move to safety and that is to the edge of the river where the current is less and where the food is plenty. This is the time of streamers.  I fish more Zonkers and Muddlers during the spring run off then at any other time of the year.  One only needs hip waders and need not even get their feet wet for all that it matters.  A length of fly line out, cast maybe 10 degrees out into the edge of the main current and letting it swing back toward shore and them twitching and working it back, upstream to yourself can be deadly.  The fish don’t come often but when they do, they are hefty and much larger. Spring run off edge fly fishing (whew, what a mouthful) can be the most startling revelation to any fly fisherman who has never done it before. The worse the river looks, the better and more concentrated are the trout packed along the edge. So think about this coming spring run off.  Don’t miss this time of great opportunity as a fly fisherman.  It is the best time to get a crack at those 10 pound plus brown trout and larger bows. Mr.G.   — http://www.gink.com

Response:

That was beautifully written.   Thanks for sharing that. Have you read any of the books from Roderick Haig-Brown?  His words are so eloquent and thoughts so devine.  I recommend his books too all who are interested in reading about fly fishing.  But he goes further than that. You learn about his interests, his childhood, his hopes, and you might even learn a few things about life. Ken. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – _____  I have been an avid fly fisherman ever since I was 10 years old, beginning with an old South Bend my Grandfather, Theodore Kurczak had purchased back during the great depression.  Those were the days of trying times when the entire family used to walked the railroad tracks out in the country picking up coal dumped or fallen off the steam engines of that era.  It was the days during 1934, the year I was born that my mother would walk three miles to the five points area of Toledo to buy me a quart of milk at black market prices.  The days of rationing stamps during world war two was full bloom when I was five, six, and then seven years old.  Trading gasoline stamps for food and the victory gardens where whole city parks were plowed under and for two or three dollars, a small garden plot could be planted by families to grow vegetables.  Food for our Armed Forces was in great demand and anything that helped feed America was considered.  It was the days of great integrity and honesty.  When away and not attending the garden every Saturday near DeVilbiss School, the hundreds of plots remained intact and not one tomato, not one radish, not one head of lettuce was ever stolen.  It was an era of unusual times. The fly rod was used to reach out in local creeks to catch bullheads and anything that would provide a share of much needed protein.  The war efforts greatest demand for preserved meats for our soldiers went into Spam Cans and on Spam the American Army marched across Europe and the Pacific Islands. Well, I was given this old South Bend Fly Rod and it was like new.  My parents sold out right after the war and bought a forty acre farm out in the country and with me went that fly rod.  Actually, fly rods are more useful in the country anyhow and this one was no exception.  Some of those stories of my youth have been hinted about in past articles such as "The Makings of a Fly Fisherman" ( see: http://www.gink.com/makeflyfisherman.htm ) It takes years to learn the progressive secrets in the world of trout. One needs to understand water if they are to understand trout.  More thought is given to flies and tying them and to all the trimmings that go with the pursuit rather then the thought necessary to understand rivers, and the timeless waters that bed there.  This moving entity is a witchcraft cauldron of churning possibilities.  If we can understand the rivers that contain this moving home year around may we possibly understand the magic’s that happen in a place we seldom see.  We stand in air and trout are below our feet mocking the higher intellect (it seems) under a window of imperfect vision as long as its moving.  In that, there is a certain danger that lurks for both.  One can drown in the water and the other drowns out of it. After spring run off, the modern day angler waits for the seasonal exodus of summer vacations when the rivers of no return get lower and lower and concentrations of trout are condensed into smaller and smaller runs and pools.  The lowest level on most rivers is just prior to Spring run off.  That month is around April just before those April showers that bring the flowers that bloom in May.  Around the 40th parallel, the colder latitudes are best fished with midges and very early types of small stone flies.  What is not realized is the really BIG FISH during all these more confined times do not come out except at night.  The big rainbows and browns and cutthroat and brook trout are actually nocturnal animals.  The are big because they have learned that they are prey to things much larger then they.  So they hide beneath under cut banks, log jams, deep under huge rocks and boulders and under deep rapids where the window above is broken and they cannot be seen.  As with humans, every day we live is a gift . . . and that is why each day is called ‘a present’. Spring comes with each days higher azimuths of the rising sun that softens the snows.  They start to bleed, unwillingly but give up the blood of life to the thirsty earth below.  The streams swell and as they do the soils run with the thaw.  The rivers turn darker and darker until the waters are a torrent of chaos and terror. Yet, the trout lives.  The trout adapt.  The trout move to the friction dragging shore lines where the current pulls on the banks, trying to draw them in, but no they hold fast. The river edges during the spring are a forest of trout who are not willing to be involved deep in the low visibility of the central rivers.  The torrents roll debris upon them including rolling stones that can kill or injure them.  If you can see the danger coming, you might have a chance.  If you can’t see, its suicide to stay there. The trout move to safety and that is to the edge of the river where the current is less and where the food is plenty. This is the time of streamers.  I fish more Zonkers and Muddlers during the spring run off then at any other time of the year.  One only needs hip waders and need not even get their feet wet for all that it matters.  A length of fly line out, cast maybe 10 degrees out into the edge of the main current and letting it swing back toward shore and them twitching and working it back, upstream to yourself can be deadly.  The fish don’t come often but when they do, they are hefty and much larger. Spring run off edge fly fishing (whew, what a mouthful) can be the most startling revelation to any fly fisherman who has never done it before. The worse the river looks, the better and more concentrated are the trout packed along the edge. So think about this coming spring run off.  Don’t miss this time of great opportunity as a fly fisherman.  It is the best time to get a crack at those 10 pound plus brown trout and larger bows. Mr.G. — http://www.gink.com

Response:

Ken, If you really liked that go to George’s chat or his bulletin board. It is full of George’s prose. George, Since these messages disappear off of the mail servers maybe you should post them to your bulletin board and preserve them. Then when people like ken want to read them they know where to go. sf

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That was beautifully written.   Thanks for sharing that. Have you read any of the books from Roderick Haig-Brown?  His words are so eloquent and thoughts so devine.  I recommend his books too all who are interested in reading about fly fishing.  But he goes further than that. You learn about his interests, his childhood, his hopes, and you might even learn a few things about life. Ken. _____  I have been an avid fly fisherman ever since I was 10 years old, beginning with an old South Bend my Grandfather, Theodore Kurczak had purchased back during the great depression.  Those were the days of trying times when the entire family used to walked the railroad tracks out in the country picking up coal dumped or fallen off the steam engines of that era.  It was the days during 1934, the year I was born that my mother would walk three miles to the five points area of Toledo to buy me a quart of milk at black market prices.  The days of rationing stamps during world war two was full bloom when I was five, six, and then seven years old.  Trading gasoline stamps for food and the victory gardens where whole city parks were plowed under and for two or three dollars, a small garden plot could be planted by families to grow vegetables.  Food for our Armed Forces was in great demand and anything that helped feed America was considered.  It was the days of great integrity and honesty.  When away and not attending the garden every Saturday near DeVilbiss School, the hundreds of plots remained intact and not one tomato, not one radish, not one head of lettuce was ever stolen.  It was an era of unusual times. The fly rod was used to reach out in local creeks to catch bullheads and anything that would provide a share of much needed protein.  The war efforts greatest demand for preserved meats for our soldiers went into Spam Cans and on Spam the American Army marched across Europe and the Pacific Islands. Well, I was given this old South Bend Fly Rod and it was like new.  My parents sold out right after the war and bought a forty acre farm out in the country and with me went that fly rod.  Actually, fly rods are more useful in the country anyhow and this one was no exception.  Some of those stories of my youth have been hinted about in past articles such as "The Makings of a Fly Fisherman" ( see: http://www.gink.com/makeflyfisherman.htm ) It takes years to learn the progressive secrets in the world of trout. One needs to understand water if they are to understand trout.  More thought is given to flies and tying them and to all the trimmings that go with the pursuit rather then the thought necessary to understand rivers, and the timeless waters that bed there.  This moving entity is a witchcraft cauldron of churning possibilities.  If we can understand the rivers that contain this moving home year around may we possibly understand the magic’s that happen in a place we seldom see.  We stand in air and trout are below our feet mocking the higher intellect (it seems) under a window of imperfect vision as long as its moving.  In that, there is a certain danger that lurks for both.  One can drown in the water and the other drowns out of it. After spring run off, the modern day angler waits for the seasonal exodus of summer vacations when the rivers of no return get lower and lower and concentrations of trout are condensed into smaller and smaller runs and pools.  The lowest level on most rivers is just prior to Spring run off.  That month is around April just before those April showers that bring the flowers that bloom in May.  Around the 40th parallel, the colder latitudes are best fished with midges and very early types of small stone flies.  What is not realized is the really BIG FISH during all these more confined times do not come out except at night.  The big rainbows and browns and cutthroat and brook trout are actually nocturnal animals.  The are big because they have learned that they are prey to things much larger then they.  So they hide beneath under cut banks, log jams, deep under huge rocks and boulders and under deep rapids where the window above is broken and they cannot be seen.  As with humans, every day we live is a gift . . . and that is why each day is called ‘a present’. Spring comes with each days higher azimuths of the rising sun that softens the snows.  They start to bleed, unwillingly but give up the blood of life to the thirsty earth below.  The streams swell and as they do the soils run with the thaw.  The rivers turn darker and darker until the waters are a torrent of chaos and terror. Yet, the trout lives.  The trout adapt.  The trout move to the friction dragging shore lines where the current pulls on the banks, trying to draw them in, but no they hold fast. The river edges during the spring are a forest of trout who are not willing to be involved deep in the low visibility of the central rivers.  The torrents roll debris upon them including rolling stones that can kill or injure them.  If you can see the danger coming, you might have a chance.  If you can’t see, its suicide to stay there. The trout move to safety and that is to the edge of the river where the current is less and where the food is plenty. This is the time of streamers.  I fish more Zonkers and Muddlers during the spring run off then at any other time of the year.  One only needs hip waders and need not even get their feet wet for all that it matters.  A length of fly line out, cast maybe 10 degrees out into the edge of the main current and letting it swing back toward shore and them twitching and working it back, upstream to yourself can be deadly.  The fish don’t come often but when they do, they are hefty and much larger. Spring run off edge fly fishing (whew, what a mouthful) can be the most startling revelation to any fly fisherman who has never done it before. The worse the river looks, the better and more concentrated are the trout packed along the edge. So think about this coming spring run off.  Don’t miss this time of great opportunity as a fly fisherman.  It is the best time to get a crack at those 10 pound plus brown trout and larger bows. Mr.G. — http://www.gink.com

Response:

Question:

I’m headed for Potter county, PA weekend of 7/12. Local hatch chart calls for a "slate drake." Anyone have a recipe for this fly? I don’t see it in my reference materials. Thanks.

Response:

I’m headed for Potter county, PA weekend of 7/12. Local hatch chart calls for a "slate drake." Anyone have a recipe for this fly? I don’t see it in my reference materials. Thanks.

There was a big brown drake hatch on Skaneateles lake (one of the Finger Lakes in NY) last week and I talked to a guy that fished it and did rather well.  He runs a flyfishing shop a couple of miles from the lake (right on Skaneateles creek) and he showed me the flies that he used. I don’t know the size of the slate drakes that you’re trying to immitate but the brown drakes were tied on size 8 hooks comparadun style.  If you don’t get any specific recipe’s I’d get some dark microfibbets or dark blue dun and make a split tail, add some dark grey dubbing, and tye on some dark deer hair comparadun style.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

I’m headed for Potter county, PA weekend of 7/12. Local hatch chart calls for a "slate drake." Anyone have a recipe for this fly? I don’t see it in my reference materials. Thanks.

The slate drake is a colorful name for the Isonychia dun.  I’m sure your reference has patterns for this.  If not, try posting at rec.outdoors. fishing.fly.tying.

Response:

Question:

I recieved a kit for Christmas and I was wondering if anyone knows of a good book that will help me learn how to tie flies? I am a avid flyfisherman and love to learn more about fly tieing. If anyone has any good paterns please send me a few to try and I will send you one of the finished products to see if I got it right. Thanks Alot Chuck Hester

Response:

I recieved a kit for Christmas and I was wondering if anyone knows of a good book that will help me learn how to tie flies?

I have Eric Leiser’s book on fly tying and like it.  (Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the book, but it is something obvious, like "Fly Tying."  It has a blue cover with pictures of flies on it.) This book walks you through dries, wets, streamers, etc., in different chapters.  It teaches a basic fly (with some variations) in each chapter, then lists patterns for several more flies that can be tied in the same way.  I like the book, and have only found two drawbacks so far.  First, it is a bit old–1970’s, I think.  The age affects the discussion of materials.  There is little mention of synthetic furs and he says that no substitute is necessary for polar bear hair. Second, there are no color photographs (other than on the cover). They would help mostly to get a better idea of how the final product should look. One of my standards for checking how well the author knows his (her) craft is the discussion of the whip finish.  If a book says that the whip finish is too hard to do and and that you should buy a tool to do it, I put the book down and move on.  The book should teach you how to do a whip finish by hand.  Also, in general, the book should not try to turn you into a "tool junkie."  Many tools you either don’t need or can make yourself.  For example, if an author tells you that you can make a dubbing needle yourself or can buy a potter’s needle tool cheaper than a "flytyer’s dubbing needle," then I rate that book higher than one that only names the tool. All of that said, I will now admit that I am fairly new to flytying. I also took a class at a local community Adult Ed. to help me along. (I got really lucky there.  The instructor was Ray Salminen, who is an excellent tyer and has been tying flies for 60 years!) Good luck! Dave

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I recieved a kit for Christmas and I was wondering if anyone knows of a good book that will help me learn how to tie flies? I am a avid flyfisherman and love to learn more about fly tieing. If anyone has any good paterns please send me a few to try and I will send you one of the finished products to see if I got it right. Thanks Alot Chuck Hester

Two decent beginner books are those written by Jack Dennis.  Although they were written for Western trout, I dont think that Eastern trout will mind.   These books have the majority of basic long honored patterns, and cute stories that go with each.  In addition, the photographs should help the beginner do well right off the bat.  I would suggest, however, that you take a class in fly tying.  Many community based programs exist, as well as classes taught at fly shops or sporting goods stores. Good luck

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I recieved a kit for Christmas and I was wondering if anyone knows of a good book that will help me learn how to tie flies? I am a avid flyfisherman and love to learn more about fly tieing. If anyone has any good paterns please send me a few to try and I will send you one of the finished products to see if I got it right. Thanks Alot Chuck Hester

I have been tying for about two years. I have two fly tying books that work well for me. 1. Fly Tying Adventures in Fur, Feathers and Fun by John F. McKim.     Great illustrations and a good selection of fly patterns. 2. Tying Flies with Jack Dennis and Friends.     Uses good photographs and very good on the step-by-step process. Happy tying, John

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I have Eric Leiser’s book on fly tying and like it.  (Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the book, but it is something obvious, like "Fly Tying."  It has a blue cover with pictures of flies on it.)

The title is "The Complete Book of Fly Tying" & despite its relative vintage & lack of discussion of a lot of the new synthetics (mylar tubing was pretty avant garde at the time ) it’s a good & thorough guide to many basic & fairly advanced tying techniques. Great drawings. cheers, — Blair Sharpe Ottawa, ON, Canada

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writes: As an alternative to books, one of the better ways to learn tying techniques is to buy or rent a few video tapes.  You’ll learn a lot more watching it being done than you will from looking a couple of still photos and reading a description.

I agree. Gary Borger’s Tying Trout Flies (part of the 3M Scientific Angler series) is quite good. I’m a relatively new tier, also. I, too, have and like Leiser’s Complete Book of Fly Tying. His "The Book of Fly Patterns" isn’t bad, either. It contains tying instructions as well as lots of patterns. I don’t have Randall Kaufmann’s books, but Tying Nymphs, Tying Dry Flies, and Fly Tyer’s Nymph Manual all look like good beginners. Books. Probably my favorite so far is Gary Borger’s Designing Trout Flies. Dave Guinee

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Hello All!     Just got connected to this group – is there also one that is dedicated to fly tieing? K. — |Fidonet:  K. Lindholm 1:285/43 | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

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Hello All!    Just got connected to this group – is there also one that is dedicated to fly tieing? K. — |Fidonet:  K. Lindholm 1:285/43 | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

Yes, try rec. outddors fishing flytying    Tom

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Hello All!    Just got connected to this group – is there also one that is dedicated to fly tieing? K. — |Fidonet:  K. Lindholm 1:285/43 | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

yes!!! rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying Paul M. Willenberg The kool-Aid Whinno http://www.wolfenet.com/~willej    Transcend the Bullshit.    Loud Pipes Save Lives -ATB    If today were a fish I’d throw it back. -Paul Hunter    I used to drink Vodka and Espresso and then I realized the last thing the world needed was a wide awake drunk -PH    Outside of a dog a book is a man’s best friend, inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.-Nelson Algren    Never eat at a place called Ma’s (she’s lying to ya, she’s not your real Ma), Never play cards with a man named Doc, and Never, Never, for any reason, sleep with somebody that has more problems than you.-Nelson ALgren

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All!    Just got connected to this group – is there also one that is dedicated to fly tieing? K. — |Fidonet:  K. Lindholm 1:285/43 | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. Yes, try rec. outddors fishing flytying    Tom

Using the correct syntax will make it easier to find: It’s rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All!    Just got connected to this group – is there also one that is dedicated to fly tieing? K. — |Fidonet:  K. Lindholm 1:285/43 | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. Yes, try rec. outddors fishing flytying    Tom Using the correct syntax will make it easier to find: It’s rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY I couldn’t find the group you suiggested above for fly tying. Do I need to do soemthing special to subscribe? David Merkel

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All!    Just got connected to this group – is there also one that is dedicated to fly tieing? K. — |Fidonet:  K. Lindholm 1:285/43 | | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. Yes, try rec. outddors fishing flytying    Tom

Try rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying instead.

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I have a CD on fly-tying, interactive and with 900 photos of what they look like and how to tie them, plus much more. It took the authors 5 yars to develop it.

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Question:

What are the trout hitting in New Hampshire this time of year?  I’ll be there at the end of this month.  Any recommendations on Flies, places to fish?  I’ll be in the southern pertion of the state, new Lale Sunnapee. All advice is greatly appreciated.

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Helen, Being in Vermont I can give some ideas that you may be able to extrapolate for NH.  Currently there are cahills and sulphurs along with caddis both black and tan.  I should not think you could ever go wrong with an elk hair caddis anywhere in NH and VT.  Yellow and cream colored soft hackles fished dragging in the riffles should produce fish there as well.  Tricos are starting to appear as well (size 20-24 white and black mayflies).  I would be happy to help in anyway I can. James Ehlers Underhill, Vermont

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What are the trout hitting in New Hampshire this time of year?  I’ll be there at the end of this month.  Any recommendations on Flies, places to fish?  I’ll be in the southern pertion of the state, new Lale Sunnapee. All advice is greatly appreciated.

Small (16-20) nymphs and the hatch of the day.  Check with the local fly shop.   This has been a real weird summer with first cold and now heat.  Nothing has been too predictable except that fishing is always better than working. — Len —– Leonard Campbell                                                                                                 solicitations!!

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Another nice place to try your hand at is cole pond near Enfield Center off of 4A.  Take bog pond road and go about 2 miles.  sign for cole pond on the right and it is about a 1/2 mile hike up to it. Fly fishing only and make sure to bring a tube or portage a canoe up as it is tough to fish from the shore in most spots although there are a couple areas were you can wade out.

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Rick, You will be not too far from the Contoocook River, which has a fly fishing only section in W. Henniker.  Also the Masocoma river that runs out of Lake MAscoma can be pretty good.  There are other rivers like the Sugar that are a little further away to the south of where you will be.   There are also some trout ponds worth looking into.  Give me an E-mail when it gets a little closer to your trip, and I might be able to give you a better idea of where to go. Tight Lines, Gerry Crow

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I’ve learned I will be spending a week in New London, New Hampshire in early July, with afternoons off from my meetings and lectures.  I don’t know a single thing about the area.  Could someone be so kind as to educate me about the streams nearby and inform me about the fly fishing possibilities?  

Rick, you’re in luck: there are a couple of very good rivers near enough to New London to get your flyfishing fix. Should be some good dry fly action as well… There’s some great fishing for browns and ‘bows on the Contoocook River near Henniker, NH, roughly 40 minutes from New London: go south on I89 to Rt 202, follow 202 west to the Rt 114 exit. Take a right at the end of the ramp (114 N), then take the first left past the gas station (Davidson Rd). Follow Davidson for roughly 1 mile to a stop sign, where you then take a left onto Liberty Hill Road (this will take you back across Rt 202). The road quickly turns into unpaved/graded. About 1/10th mile from the bridge over 202, take the first right turn onto Western Road (another dirt road), follow this to a fork (an equipment dealer on your right) and take the left fork down to the river. This road parallels the best fishing on the Contoocook… Another piece of river worth trying is the Sugar River in Guild, NH. Take I89 north to Rt 11 south. When you cross into the town of Guild (~10 miles from New London) from the town of Sunapee, look immediately to the left for Paradise Road (~1/10 mile from the town line) which will take you over the Sugar River. You then see an old railroad grade that roughly parallels the river. Good place to start – the next couple of miles of river heading downstream can be quite good… Finally, the Warner River can also be quite good, and it’s not far from New London (~15 miles). Take I89 south to Rt 103 west, then follow 103 for ~2 miles, then look for the township of Roby (with Roby Road perhaps being the only marker of same ;^). Roby Road heads north from 103 and parallels the Lane River. The confluence of the Lane with the Warner marks the downstream end of a good section of Warner water. Work your way upstream from there for another couple of miles looking for the good spots… Although none of the above is a closely guarded secret, I hope this helps you keep your casting arm limber during your stay in Cow Hampster. None of these rivers would be confused with *any* of the multiple branches of the Salmon River, but they’ll certainly be better than leaving your rod home ;^) Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.       Alpha Server Engineering < <     "What doesn’t kill you…will hurt like heck!"     < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Hi y’all, I’ve learned I will be spending a week in New London, New Hampshire in early July, with afternoons off from my meetings and lectures.  I don’t know a single thing about the area.  Could someone be so kind as to educate me about the streams nearby and inform me about the fly fishing possibilities?  Email would be great, posting here is fine.  I’ll happily trade info on Idaho and the general area. Thanks. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Question:

Hi All,    I have seen a lot of messages regarding the "New" lines, with all the technical barrage of comments about how and what it is made of.  Not to flame anyone of these guys, but it sounded like none of them have used them. A lot of

OK, you asked for it I’ve been using Web Wizard (loosely braided Dyneema line) in both 0.08 and 0.10 mm diameter (8x and 7x), as fly tippets. And no, I don’t like it; I went back to Tectan premium monofil nylon. Reasons: – Web Wizard, as, as I understand, all Dyneema lines, is white. Very white. Of course I could take a felt pen and dye it, but still… – It is loosely braided, frays easily and is, as far as my limited experience goes, easily damaged by abrasion (as in: snagged lines from casting into a tree instead of towards the water ) – I don’t ‘believe’ the stated diameter, especially since the braid is flat; if you take a micrometer (or high precision caliper (?)), you’ll probably measure what is advertised as the diameter, IF you measure the narrow dimension, but even that is because you’re measuring UNDER ‘PRESSURE’. My 0.12 mm Tectan looks a lot thinner that the 0.10 mm Web Wizard. – It is limp. Now for fishing small nymphs this might be OK, but tying these small nymphs to the tippet is another story entirely (and yes, I know about threaders). Too much frustration at the waterside. As I said, I’m back at Tectan. | Research Institute of Toxicology    |                                      | | Environmental Toxicology Section    |  phone:   +31 30 535338              | | Utrecht University, the Netherlands |  fax:     +31 30 535077              |

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Hi All,         I have seen a lot of messages regarding the "New" lines, with all the technical barrage of comments about how and what it is made of.  Not to flame anyone of these guys, but it sounded like none of them have used them. A lot of posts sayin they did or did not like them.  We’ll some comments from someone who has used them and some viable comments.  I have been using the Fenwick Iron thread and the Spiderwire. 1)The 20 lb Spiderwire is flat.  When the wind blows, it blows your line like a  sail. (when I cast it I put my rod tip in the water immediately in order to "sink" the line) 2)The eye on the rod just after the reel (used for holding lure) continuosly gets wrapped by the line, while casting. (I have cut these off on some rods) 3)You must look at your line before casting (with wind blowing it is constantly wrapping line around the last eye or two. 4)If you hang on a limb or branch, you might as well go and get it.  Most of the time the line will not flip off of it and will wrap even worse. 5)The action on top water lures is a little different.  I try to sink my line before twitching the lure. 6)The 35lb spiderwire seems to be more round and is better on the above lines, but I have come across a snag, literally.  I was constantly getting backlashes and thought it was casting into the wind.  I changed directions and still had a problem. I pulled out all my line to find a very small fray (imperfection in the line) causing it grab the next line in the spool and backlashing. 7)I have been using the recommended Polymar knot.  Still I have snapped off several lures during casting. (I have found that if tying a Polymar while the line is dry will give you a tighter knot), also after cutting the line after tying the knot as cigarette or match will clean up the fray. The fenwick iron thread 30lb.  has proven to be a much better line.  A little larger in line diameter makes tying knots easier (don’t seem to slip as much) Doesn’t seem to fly loose in the wind like the spider wire. One additional comment on both lines: They are very sensitive and have not any frayed lines or nicks from horsing fish in around and among fish. Have not tried other braided lines, I just wanted to try the best!

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