Question:

does anyone know of a good recreational city in northern wyoming or southern montana?  like to stay with in 400 miles of denver   – flying a 182

   Check out West Yellowstone, MT (WYS).  I stop in there at least once a year.  The Madison River and Hebgen lake are just north of the runway (good fishing).  There’s a pilots campground on the field and complimentary mountain bikes for exploring the local area.  The town is just 1.5 miles down the road and has outfitters for hiking/biking/rafting/4-wheeling trips if that’s your thing.  If you’re going to be driving around on your own, check out the nearby (20 miles?) Earthquake Lake visitor center.  The lake was formed in the 1959 earthquake when the side of a large mountain collapsed into the Madison River.  Very cool place.  For general info, check out : http://www.westyellowstonechamber.com/ already been to rapid city/devils tower.  jackson hole probably booked over weekend, and a little far.  

  Jackson Hole is an overrated tourist trap.  The FBO on the field caters to bizjets and gasoline burners are treated accordingly.  Don’t bother. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Response:

or are there many recreational things to do it billings?  it’s directly north of cody, but can skirt around smoke if problem.  just don’t want to get "weathered in" by smoke at cody. would prefer a town that has river for fishing or rafting – and some good local restaurants and bars of course.

If you can, Butte or Missoula are awesome and have your recreation "needs".

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i am taking parents up to cody, wyoming (COD) over labor day,  first time flying with me.  (yes leaving at 6am for mom) have motel and rafting trip scheduled, but current fires there might be a prob – -especially if wind is blowing smoke into city,  and as i can attest to living in denver it’s extremely unpleasant on lungs and eyes. (and im sure airplanes)

I’m not au courant on the fires and of course in a few weeks the situation may change, so this might not help But have you considered West Yellowstone (WYS)?  You can fly through the Tetons and get in there not going over 10k or swing around to the N We were at both Cody and West Yellowstone last summer, and I liked the latter better.  It was a closer drive into Yellowstone Park, smaller city (very touristy still), beautiful airport with a nice long runway and an ILS so no problem at all landing there. I’m sure rafting trips and motels can be arranged, if not there’s a nice pilot’s campground at the airport Cheers, Sydney

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i am taking parents up to cody, wyoming (COD) over labor day,  first time flying with me.  (yes leaving at 6am for mom) have motel and rafting trip scheduled, but current fires there might be a prob – -especially if wind is blowing smoke into city,  and as i can attest to living in denver it’s extremely unpleasant on lungs and eyes. (and im sure airplanes) I’m not au courant on the fires and of course in a few weeks the situation may change, so this might not help But have you considered West Yellowstone (WYS)?  You can fly through the Tetons and get in there not going over 10k or swing around to the N We were at both Cody and West Yellowstone last summer, and I liked the latter better.  It was a closer drive into Yellowstone Park, smaller city (very touristy still), beautiful airport with a nice long runway and an ILS so no problem at all landing there. I’m sure rafting trips and motels can be arranged, if not there’s a nice pilot’s campground at the airport Cheers, Sydney

Rafting trips are booked months ahead.  Hotels are scarce, at times. — Jim in NC–

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Cheney’s popping in and out of Jackson Hole (TFR Aug1-Sep1) so you may want an alternative.

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<<I am in Billings.  The smoke comes and goes.  Yesterday morning was our worst day.  It was 2 miles viz until about 8 am when a cold front came thru.  That cleared it up to about 15 mile viz. thanks for the posts and the local info. visibility is my main concern – but sounds managable – so we’ll probably still land / stay in cody, but maybe head north to billings or further for day trips if cody isn’t pleasant environment.. cough cough << Jackson Hole is an overrated tourist trap. i’ve spent new years in jackson hole once–  drove there but saw AF2 at JAC. one thing i like was teton county library south of town. largest small town library i’ve seen- modern and new titles -big bay window with deer wandering by.  nice way to spend cold afternoon. west yellowstone – western montana is definetely on my list.  now that i’m flying 182 shouldn’t be a prob for a 3-4 day trip thanks – and will post pics!

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<<I am in Billings.  The smoke comes and goes.  Yesterday morning was our worst day.  It was 2 miles viz until about 8 am when a cold front came thru.  That cleared it up to about 15 mile viz. thanks for the posts and the local info. visibility is my main concern – but sounds managable – so we’ll probably still land / stay in cody, but maybe head north to billings or further for day trips if cody isn’t pleasant environment.. cough cough

Now today we had vis of 50 miles.  Still a little fuzzy looking but flyable.

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Rafting trips are booked months ahead.  Hotels are scarce, at times.

I’m sure both are true, especially if one has specific preferences or wishes a multi-day trip or to stay at a lodge in the park. However, just for a comfortable but not fancy motel, we were there after July 4th and there were vacancies in both W. Yellowstone and Cody, at motels and at "dude ranches" outside town.  There was also space available on several different day and half-day rafting trips, trail rides etc. Whether they would have been available a week ahead of time, or whether they represented the inevitable "last minute cancellations", I can’t say. Whether the sitch is different on Labor Day, can’t say either but I suspect it’s pretty much the same. FWIW Sydney

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Got into this a bit late, but I’m a big fan of Sheridan.  Have some info and pics on my web site:  http://www.flyingmutts.com. FYI,  the Big Horn Fire that was burning NW of Sheridan is pretty much contained so that shouldn’t pose a problem  Flying time from Boulder to Sheridan in my 182 is usually about 2′15" depending on wind.   Have fun. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -i am taking parents up to cody, wyoming (COD) over labor day,  first time flying with me.  (yes leaving at 6am for mom) have motel and rafting trip scheduled, but current fires there might be a prob – -especially if wind is blowing smoke into city,  and as i can attest to living in denver it’s extremely unpleasant on lungs and eyes. (and im sure airplanes) still hoping for cody, but prepping an alternate if needed.  does anyone know of a good recreational city in northern wyoming or southern montana?  like to stay with in 400 miles of denver   – flying a 182 already been to rapid city/devils tower.  jackson hole probably booked over weekend, and a little far.   anyone been to sheridan / buffalo area? or are there many recreational things to do it billings?  it’s directly north of cody, but can skirt around smoke if problem.  just don’t want to get "weathered in" by smoke at cody. would prefer a town that has river for fishing or rafting – and some good local restaurants and bars of course. thanks in advance — will post flying pics of wherever we end up!

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thanks – i’ve seen your site – nice pics – and salida and buena vista are on my list of places to go. leaving sat morning for cody – called the FBO and they said viz is been ok -but i have riverton as a b’up also taking a 182 from front range – planning 2.5 to 3 hours – if you can get to sheridan in just over 2 that’s good to hear! my only concern now is front moving in from north this weekend- hope it doesn’t make it an IFR morning still 25 hours away from that IFR checkride — but getting closer all the time…

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Now today West Yellowstone is a no go, viz about 1-2 miles around 11 am.   Hazy here in Billings and the viz is only about 30-40 miles.  There has been a lot of rain in southwestern MT over the past week. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks – i’ve seen your site – nice pics – and salida and buena vista are on my list of places to go. leaving sat morning for cody – called the FBO and they said viz is been ok -but i have riverton as a b’up also taking a 182 from front range – planning 2.5 to 3 hours – if you can get to sheridan in just over 2 that’s good to hear! my only concern now is front moving in from north this weekend- hope it doesn’t make it an IFR morning still 25 hours away from that IFR checkride — but getting closer all the time…

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i am taking parents up to cody, wyoming (COD) over labor day,  first time flying with me.  (yes leaving at 6am for mom) have motel and rafting trip scheduled, but current fires there might be a prob – -especially if wind is blowing smoke into city,  and as i can attest to living in denver it’s extremely unpleasant on lungs and eyes. (and im sure airplanes) still hoping for cody, but prepping an alternate if needed.  does anyone know of a good recreational city in northern wyoming or southern montana?  like to stay with in 400 miles of denver   – flying a 182 already been to rapid city/devils tower.  jackson hole probably booked over weekend, and a little far.   anyone been to sheridan / buffalo area? or are there many recreational things to do it billings?  it’s directly north of cody, but can skirt around smoke if problem.  just don’t want to get "weathered in" by smoke at cody. would prefer a town that has river for fishing or rafting – and some good local restaurants and bars of course. thanks in advance — will post flying pics of wherever we end up!

Response:

Sheridan or Buffalo are definitely options. Buffalo is a little closer to Story, which is a great place to visit. OTOH, I don’t think you can get a rental car at Buffalo. Buffalo has cheaper gas than Sheridan, though, and is more of a rustic airport.

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still hoping for cody, but prepping an alternate if needed.  does anyone know of a good recreational city in northern wyoming or southern montana?  like to stay with in 400 miles of denver   – flying a 182

I am in Billings.  The smoke comes and goes.  Yesterday morning was our worst day.  It was 2 miles viz until about 8 am when a cold front came thru.  That cleared it up to about 15 mile viz.  You’ll get what you get.  You can fly to Red Lodge(RED) and have a short walk into town. It’s a cool mountain town similar to Cody.  Go to Bogarts for lunch, and don’t miss the candy store that is in a 75 year old movie theater…squeaking wood floors and all. already been to rapid city/devils tower.  jackson hole probably booked over weekend, and a little far.  

And a ton of TFR’s.  Cheney is in and out of JAC for the month of August. anyone been to sheridan / buffalo area?

I’ve been to Sheridan a few times, nice scenery. or are there many recreational things to do it billings?  it’s directly north of cody, but can skirt around smoke if problem.  just don’t want to get "weathered in" by smoke at cody.

You won’t get weathered in by smoke but you may get actual 10 mile viz, which sucks.  If you are a golfer Billings has a few places to play. would prefer a town that has river for fishing or rafting – and some good local restaurants and bars of course.

All the rivers are low right now as we have not had measureable rain for 56 days now and most of the snow has already melted off the mountains this year.   Columbus(6S3) is right on the confluence of the Stillwater and Yellowstone rivers 30 miles SW of BIL.  You can easily fish the rivers or there are numerous float operators if you want to float the river.  All towns around here have interesting bars and restaurants.  I will give you more info if you’d like.

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Question:

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book.

Obviously, you’ve never spent any time in eastern Montana where a lot of grazing is done on BLM. I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits in our area come around to check grass conditions, number of cattle, water hole conditions, whether or not the ranchers are pulling there cows off public ground at the designated time, etc., etc., etc. I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits (and they should) for not following the stipulated conditions on their permit. This same scenario (the proper management of grazing permits) happens all across the American West on both National Forest System Lands and Bureau of Land Management lands. You,  sir, are clueless. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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FISHING RELATED POST?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You never met a cattleman, period. —

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Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

Brian D. Nelson responded: I can recall many times having the BLM officer who monitors the grazing permits … I also know of ranchers (not many, though) who lost their grazing permits … You,  sir, are clueless.

Across the west you’ll find varying compliance with grazing permits. Ditto logging laws and so on. I regularily volunteer to help with multi-agency state/federal fish surveys in eastern Oregon, and it is not uncommon to find cattle grazing well outside their permitted range. In one case we were surveying for bull trout in a remote backcountry area where grazing permits had been eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Some of the agency folks were suppose to followup on that discovery. Thomas Gilg

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eliminated several years before, and yet we still found cattle and signs of regular grazing activity *inside the former and still-fenced allotments*. Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.

I’m sure there are instances of illegal activity such as you described. However, from my experience, I don’t believe that these instances are "commonplace". — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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Even if they are, that just means more money needs to be spent on enforcing the current restrictions, not coming up with more.

And sadly the folks breaking the law are the same ones against any additional government enforcement of the law. Thomas Gilg

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  George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.

snipped: Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands. George Gehrke

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Just don’t like cattle on my Federal Lands stealing habitat that belongs to the American People’s wildlife inventories.  Cattle destroy much too much and are a financially bankrupting entity that needs to be removed from all our outdoor recreational lands.

The American People’s wildlife inventories are not starving nor do they lack a home. So what I hear you saying is that multiple use on our public lands actually equates to ONLY recreation. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G. You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

Actually grazing more animals than are allowed under the permit and grazing outside the boundaries of the permit are commonplace.  As enforcement by the government is almost nonexistant, that shouldn’t be surprising.  These common practices do constitute theft in anyone’s book. Jon

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  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose.

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G.

Response:

Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past?

Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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What’s to do with FISHING anyways?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, George, are you living in the netherworld if you think ranchers have ANY influence on the retail price of beef. What, are you suggesting that both ends are getting screwed by the large corporations in the middle? How un-American! Jon.

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  When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother.

christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you’re paying $9 a pound for beef you’ll be blaming that on Bush too I suppose. Getting screwed by Ranchers must stop.  When did YOU ever get a discount on a pound of beef for letting them steal grass and graze and destroying habitat in the past? Never? Your right!! Mr.G. You’re getting the lower price right now.  Jesus why do I even bother. christ.  I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother? Mr.G.

You don’t have to like them, you have that right, but they are not stealing anything. As long as they have grazing permits it is legal.

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I never met a cattleman who stole America’s grass lands and graze that I liked.  You’re right. Why should a nobody lbother?

In this country, you are entitled to your own opinion…. even when it’s an incorrect one. Maybe if you’d actually get out there and meet a real cattleman, you’d change your tune. George– This is Cindy… Brian’s wife writing now.  I cannot believe your comments regarding ranchers/cattlemen ripping off the consumer.  I grew up in Eastern Montana on a small ranch.  My father received 70-90 cents per pound for his calves sold every fall.  This fall the price given to cattlemen for their calves is still 70-75 cents per pound.  Not much of a raise over the past 20 years.  Your accusations against the ranchers holds no water.  You are basically talking out of your rear-end.  If you would do some research and cared about your country, you would see that the family ranches are unable to support their families.  Any help we can give the ranchers in the use of public lands is money put back into our economy and assistance to families who are trying to make a living providing food for your table.  And just in case you are a vegetarian, don’t forget those ranchers who graze cattle on public land can then use the land they own to grow grain and barley for your bread.  Don’t be such a twit. Boy, George… did you ever step in it!! When Cindy reads over my shoulder and kicks me off the keyboard…. well, you get the drift. — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana www.diamondnoutfitters.com

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I was listening to a recent NPR program, discussing the problems of depopulation in rural communities back east – sorry, can’t remember the exact state, possibly one of the Dakotas. The program talked about how more people are getting college education and moving away to city jobs, leaving rural life. As a result some farmers are converting their land back to prairie. What little I know of the Eastern states, I’d guess this is some pretty decent farm land being lost.  I also recently read about farm land in Wisconsin being converted back to forest. I know that here in the Southwest, we are enduring one of the worst droughts ever. Phoenix has had just 2.24 inches of rain this year, and may get no more rain until February or March. People are leaving the East and moving out West in huge numbers, and so people & agriculture are competing for many natural resources. So, it doesn’t sound so bad to me, when  "Hard-line environmentalists" are simply helping to maximize the reward to the taxpayers, from the business use of  Federal land. In a free market economy the cost for federal grazing rights should b e"all the market will bear". I know that there is an argument that this policy will reduce domestic beef production & increase imports. Well……perhaps we should consider the most efficient way this country feeds its’self. As a taxpayer and an eater, I want the cheapest (safe) beef I can get. This allows me to spend more of my income on other (US-made) products. It’s a tough life being a farmer. My grandfather was a successful farmer in England. He changed & correctly predicted the trends and made a profit – he didn’t need subsidies. He changed a farm that was widely diversified (sugarbeet, chickens, barley & milk, were just some of the products) to a farm that was specialized – he was one of the first in the area to see the demand for oil seed rape. As a farmer it doesn’t seem fair that a successful way of life is being changed. But all forms of business change over time – including farming.

|         www.sfgate.com        Return to regular view | In the old West, a tense showdown over federal lands | JIM CARLTON, The Wall Street Journal | Monday, November 11, 2002 |

Question:

    No, I’m not referring to the excellent book of the same name. I just got this cut and paste in an e-mail from my uncle. There is no indication that the guy was fishing with flies, but I thought the article would be of interest to the group. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Journal) about the truth on the shark attack here on Pensacola Beach, the truth is coming out!  There is a reason that the "hero" of the attack that wrestled that 7 foot shark to shore is not giving any interviews, and is hard to find.  There is a reason that this 7 foot shark was in 2 feet of water, and there is a reason that the family is "acting funny" about taking money from those that want to help….here it is…..hard truth…Sit down…. THE UNCLE THAT WRESTLED THE SHARK ASHORE WAS FISHING FOR SHARKS, HAD IT ON A LINE AND HAD BEEN FIGHTING IT FOR TWO HOURS PLUS. The unidentified stranger that helped him also helped him fight the fish to shore.  When the shark got into two feet of water, the kids all ran into the water in jubilation and the shark lunged from off the ground and hit Jessie Arbogast twice, took his arm off and bit into his leg.  !!!!!!! The man had CHUM in the water, and heavy tackle built to fish for sharks. His nephew got bit because the entire family went into the water trying to wrestle the fish to land.  There is big money on a shark that size. THIS IS THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH The press has suppressed the real truth, because they are afraid that it will effect the contributions for Jessie and the uncle is so filled with guilt, he has tried to commit suicide once already….Now it all makes sense.  NO MAN is going to wrestle a shark that large to shore in two feet of water, that is one powerful animal, and they had cut the cable, and hid the rods by the time the Medic’s got there.  The ranger that shot the shark testified that the shark still had the hook in his mouth and "put up a big fight because his mouth was all bloody and torn up"….(that is why the shark had blood all over it’s mouth in the TV photo’s, it was it’s own blood !!) I am not lessening the horror of the event.  Jessie did get an arm bit off and is going to recover, but I am tired of Pensacola Beach taking it in the shorts because of the "whole truth not being told"….The money, in my opinion would still come in, and the uncle will have to accept that it was a tragic accident and a mistake.

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No, I’m not referring to the excellent book of the same name. I just got this cut and paste in an e-mail from my uncle. There is no indication that the guy was fishing with flies, but I thought the article would be of interest to the group.

Saw this in the Urban Legends web page-they said not true.  Hope not, anyway….

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THE UNCLE THAT WRESTLED THE SHARK ASHORE WAS FISHING FOR SHARKS, HAD IT ON A LINE AND HAD BEEN FIGHTING IT FOR TWO HOURS PLUS.

Not sure about the veracity of that report but at least one network news program did present a brief story about tourists in that area chumming sharks, not necessarily to fish for them but to gawk at them. Mu

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Question:

Right now, I feel like a well-meaning liberal in the French Revolution’s Reign of Terror: someone about to get his head chopped off. Well, c’est la vie. Please read the exchange of email between Ms. Birkholm and myself. I think it will suggest the rejoicing over L’affaire Rupe should be tempered with some restraint, not taking a number 10 wt rod to a minnow. We not talking John Birch Society, as far as racism goes, or Amazon, as far as professional websites. FAOL came out of the initiative of two amateurs, like much of what is best of the Internet, and should not be allowed to die ignored any more than Old Rupe’s remarks should have gone unnoticed in the first place. Let’s keep some sense of proportion. We all get into unintentional trouble because we don’t know how to handle it. I have experienced and seen enough racism in my life not to recognize genuine evil which should be stamped out. I hope enough ROFF members will second what I’m saying to perhaps give the Birkholms room to reconsider.

   Dear Laurence,   Thanks for your comments – right now I am seriously considering closing the   website.   It seems unreal and incredible that people calling us racist and inciting murder do   not   realize the seeds of hate they planted with everyone they contacted – and that   includes   all of our sponsors.   The whole issue happened because our editor, my husband Jim (JC) had fallen,   broke   6 ribs and punctured a lung.  He tried to do his job, but the Codine which allowed   him to   sit at the computer at all obviously obstructed his judgement.  We apologized   publicly   on Monday, and the disclaimed was attached to the article as soon as we received   it   from rupe.  The article has been removed, and the hate mail to us personally   continues.   We are now listed on some web list server as "racists and murders" and have   become   a target.  I don’t know if I can continue to produce the volume of work we do   every week   with this happening.  The haters out there, some of whom were/are our readers,   have   broken my heart.  Hard to produce a work of passion when your heart isn’t in it.   If you can think of a fix, let me know.  I don’t think there is one.   Regards,   Deanna   Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by   () on Sunday, December 5, 1999 at 11:52:10 —–     name: Lawrence Rottersman     address: 2191 NW Glisan St. #206     City: Portland     State: OR     Zip: 97210     Country: usa     tel: 503-220-5081     fax: 503-220-5081       Topic of this contact: Comment on an Article     Comments: Mr. and Mrs. Birkholm: I was one of, maybe, two or three, who   stuck up for you during the Old Rupe issue. So I hope you will at least   think about the following:     As an expublicist, I can tell you what you already know. you’re clumsy at   public relations. But that doesn’t make you racists.     Don’t give into the people who are gloating and displaying your head as some   kind of trophy. You have a really good site, the best  I have seen on fly   fishing, and one of the best, period.     Keep going. Everybody runs into bumps. Again, as a publicist, I can assure   you that today’s news that’s exorcising everybody, will be dimly remembered   tomorrow, and probably not at all the day after.     (If you do change your mind, it might not be a bad idea–I say very   respectfully–to get someone with editorial experience to look over the copy   submitted, for taste as well as clarity. Everybody needs someone to look   over their shoulder for the gaffes we all make.)       —–     REMOTE_HOST: i48-07-12.pdx.du.teleport.com   REMOTE_ADDR: 216.26.3.140   HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; I)

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Ok I know I am a big bad evil bogeyman.  Whatever. Copy of my last e-mail exchange with Ms.Birkholm. Last post dated Sunday 05.dec. 1999  21.05 PM Deanna, after all this you are still somehow missing the point. This is not a personal thing. You published an inflammatory and racist article, you refused to listen to protests, and the disclaimer and the other stuff were just too little too late.  This was the wrong thing to do.  I do not for one minute believe you or JC are racists, or murderers, or even Rupe for that matter, although the whole mess is mainly his fault, what I think is however irrelevant. You published the damn article, and then supported it.  This was a grave error of judgement, which was pointed out to you almost immediately by a large number of people.  You did not even reply to these people. Under duress from your sponsors, and presumably other pressure from readers and contributors,  you finally retracted, apologised grudgingly and removed the article, agreeing that it was inflammatory, Deanna, nearly  a whole week went by with people you know and like, and who know and like you, a lot of readers, and other contributors complaining daily, and you did nothing sensible to stem the rising tide of anger and outrage caused by the article. I am afraid I just can not understand this. Deanna, I can appreciate you being under considerable stress because of all this, and I really do feel extremely sorry that it happened, but I have even more trouble trying to figure out why you do not realise why.  I doubt if any of those people who protested  wished to damage you personally, I certainly did not. They just wanted to see that racist crap removed or at least an assurance that it was not supported by FAOL.You did not give that assurance, and you continued to support the article, quashing and suppressing the protests on your boards, I presume mainly because of your loyalty to Old Rupe.  While I can identify with this, and even admire  your stubborn loyalty to some degree, it was misplaced here, and a serious mistake. You are a public figure, the well known and respected publisher and editor of a major online fishing magazine, surely you did not imagine that there would be no protest ? Or that people would not take you to task ?  Right thinking people will not tolerate this sort of thing, you are a right thinking person normally, what on earth influenced you to do such a crazy and dangerous thing ?  Did you just have a blind spot or a blackout here ? You threw a lighted match into a barrel of gas, and now you are wondering why the damn thing has exploded ?  Come on,  you are far more intelligent than that. I am well known for my anti-racist views, I imagine you would have known this, there has been more than enough publicity about it.  Surely you did not think I would remain silent in view of such blatant racism ? You know my views and principles on many things, you can not possibly imagine that I could ignore something like this on a site with which I was so closely associated ? I sent several letters asking people to retract their protests and e-mail the sponsors immediately the article was retracted.  As I already said elsewhere though, words are like bullets, once fired they can not be unfired. The only reason for this whole mess was that article. With it gone you have at least a chance. I beg you also to realise that there was nothing personal in any of this from my side, and also that I was certainly not the only person who was outraged by the article.  Most people carried out their protests without any assistance whatsoever. If I were in your present position I would do the following.  I would explain in my next editorial that I was under considerable stress due to my husband having had a serious accident, because of this I relied too heavily on a friend, and the result was that this inflammatory article somehow crept through unedited, not wanting to upset the friend, and out of a sense of loyalty, too little was done to remedy the problem and it just got out of hand. I assume this is more or less what happened anyway. Apologise for your honest mistake and carry on. I am sure you will receive more than enough support if you apologise forthrightly to your readers and sponsors, explaining the circumstances. It grieves me considerably that you have been subjected to such extreme personal distress, I hope that this soon lifts, and that you will put this behind you and carry on. Do not give up because of one stupid mistake. I think people will understand if you tell them the truth, and you will not lose as much as you think now because of it. Sincerely and with great personal regret and understanding for your distress and bitterness. Mike Connor —–Urspr

Question:

I just received my latest rod purchase in the mail today, an old SQUARE fiberglass rod. The seller thinks its from the 1940’s. Its a seven foot rod in a cream color. On the butt it says-  " Pan Fish FLY ROD PF-7 For HDH or D" It has a green aluminum downlocking reel seat and the wraps are done with different color thread but its all mixed up, each guide has 4 or 5 colors of thread mixed.Its a cool looking rod. I fished it this evening and landed several fish, of course the biggest one shook the fly. Had my best luck with a 24 cream Griffith’s gnat. This thing’s a dream for midging… But HEAVY! Does anyone know of this rod, when it might have been built and what exactly does HDH and D mean? Any help would be appreciated….. Matt M. P.S.  No, Big Dale, it’s not for sale

Response:

… Does anyone know of this rod, when it might have been built and what exactly does HDH and D mean? Any help would be appreciated…..

Hey Matt, Don’t know much about 40’s fiberglas but HDH translates to DT6. — Ken Fortenberry Illini 3 – Tar Heels 1

Response:

does HDH and D mean? Any help would be appreciated….. Matt M.

This is a dimensional description.  The H corresponded, IIRC, to 0.025 inch diameter.  Each letter backward added 0.005.  Thus, D would be 0.045.  Accuracy in these dimensions was not a stron point for line manufacturers. Bill

Response:

Try calling Martin Keane of Classic Rods and Tackle in Ashley Falls, Mass.  Phone 413-229-7988.  He is an excellent authority on antique tackle. Ian Scott http://flyfishing.about.com/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I just received my latest rod purchase in the mail today, an old SQUARE fiberglass rod. The seller thinks its from the 1940’s. Its a seven foot rod in a cream color. On the butt it says- " Pan Fish FLY ROD PF-7 For HDH or D" It has a green aluminum downlocking reel seat and the wraps are done with different color thread but its all mixed up, each guide has 4 or 5 colors of thread mixed.Its a cool looking rod. I fished it this evening and landed several fish, of course the biggest one shook the fly. Had my best luck with a 24 cream Griffith’s gnat. This thing’s a dream for midging… But HEAVY! Does anyone know of this rod, when it might have been built and what exactly does HDH and D mean? Any help would be appreciated….. Matt M. P.S.  No, Big Dale, it’s not for sale

Response:

Question:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy

vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

"supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

  Go get him Timbo "release the hounds"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Damn, there are sharks in this stream! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. "supply a service ?" You have a serious misconception of the usenet don_in_ottawa. I am incensed by the gall of your post. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…" I agree with you Tim….if he wants service…I think he ought to send us some friggin’ money. TANSTAAFL  ..uhhh…US dollars please. –Wataugan Walt

Response:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

        oh, golly, don, thanks for putting us in our place.  let’s see:  do you think sage rods are better than orvis?  here’s the hot tip on the yellowstone this week:  tie on (with an improved clinch, of course) a adams in the morning, a royal wulff in the mid-day, and an elk hair caddis near dark.  btw, do you think 2mm waders are sufficient for late june on the au sable?  hey, have you got a load of the new 50 pocket vest from l.l. bean?  it holds all 350 patterns of bwo’s i’ve identified after a long weekend in the loving arms of a.k. best.  ad infinitum.  ad nauseum.  nighty night.         a. wayne harrison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas. Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

______  ha!  that’s funny, Tim.  In fact,you’re not far off from our famous motto and in Tim Patterson’s case,  "Gink Keeps It Up" includes him.  Isn’t what your saying is, "Without me, Tim Patterson couldn’t make it?" hum?  You may have a point? I have a problem though, Tim.  I keep releasing him but he keeps coming back.  Possibly we should start a new group?  rec.outdoors.fishing.boomerang.suckers.tim (?) mercy.

Response:

Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don? Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

-Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

Response:

Ya I’m here but after many years of intermittent fly fishing on west coast and back east in Ontario and Quebec, I modestly don’t feel I have the expertese to significantly contribute  to the body of knowledge in the literature and what is commonly known. That being the case, I peruse this UG occasionally to see if anything of note has been said. I am well tackled (no pun intended) but am a very unaccomplished tyer. I am no purist and do not practice C & R, primarily because my friends and I have been doing our own stocking for many years in lakes which do not permit natural reproduction of either specs or rb. Rarely do I meet an opportunity to use dries and we normally use nymphs and streamers, of which we have developed a few local patterns. I have my own ideas which I do not inflict on others, except I cast right, real left and preach this to anybody who will listen. And I’ve been using George’s stuff for many years, which I suppose will bring more brick-bats….. Unfortunately, I don’t get out as much as I would like but hope springs eternal amd I have asperations of hooking one of the Ottawa River browns which are coming along nicely, so I am told. For those of you who do get out and into the back country, who love maps etc. and are interested in GPS as an aid to your travels, check out this URL where most of my time on line goes:           http://www.synapse.net/~dbartlett/gpsutm.htm This is NOT a commercial site. Don Bartlett Yea, good idea!  Let’s start!!  You go first!! Uh.. hello?  You there Don?

Response:

Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

Response:

Don writes: Come on guys, lets cut out the BS, & supply a service to those of us who truly expect to find useful info here rather than ongoing juvenile wordy vendettas.

Welcome to ROFF, Don! Like it or not, that’s the way this newsgroup goes. You can sort through for the useful info, as it will be there. You are, however, asking for trouble with posts like this,as the rabid dogs will search you out. Tim Patterson may even post a web page about you, but I think his server is pretty well Ginked up….                                         Tom Littleton

Response:

Question:

We developed SneakPeek postings as a result of many Usenet users’ desire for a summarizing tool that would help them skim through the most active threads.  Thus, SneakPeek postings are intended to help users with limited time keep abreast of group discussions, stay in touch with more groups, and check out new groups quickly. Usenet is an environment where every voice should count equally.  However, while some users have found SneakPeek postings useful, others have tried to shout it down, potentially resulting in the tyranny of a vocal few. Therefore, we encourage all to post their constructive opinions so that we may democratically decide if there is room for SneakPeek postings in Usenet. Talkway, Inc. http://www.talkway.com The rest of this message summarizes the most active recent threads in this newsgroup. *** Jonathan Cook:  … First, we have been consistent that "selective harvest" is OK. So, throwing back small ones (or big ones) is not a problem. Since I cannot always target an exact fish like I can say, a deer, throwing back those out of the regulated keepable sizes or species is fine.  … *** eaguilr:  … I am very curious about your evidence that suggests that most C&K fishers gon only once a month or less.  What is yor dats source on this?  how do you know this?  … *** Ralph H:  … RESPONSE GENERATED BY AUTO-BOT I don’t have a problem with these basic propositions. I don’t have a problem with replacing most c&r or zero retention waters with a restricited  slot limit. I wouldn’t have a probl;em with applying that to more delicate populations like steehead as long as the slot enacted  … *** Jonathan McAnulty:  … One thing you might consider is the type of water you intend to paddle. A sea kayak is not very good for any rivers with rapids (even easy rapids) that require fast turns to be made. Also, rocky rivers may damage the boat if it is made of fiberglass/gelcoat. Since most sea  … *** DavPLaC: Jon writes, in part: rocky rivers or ones that require more maneuvering you may want to consider some of the high-volume plastic whitewater kayaks or a sit on top whitewater kayak. These can be plenty big enough and will take a lot  … *** Jonathan McAnulty:  … Here’s a few things to think about. First, materials: fiberglass is a better performer because its stiffer but it breaks easier and requires more repair. However, it is easier to repair if you need it. Plastic is much tougher. The uses you describe are unlikely to ever need to have  … *** info: Monday, August 17, 1998     4:26:33 AM Please, could you tell me what a Patriot Fly is?  Perhaps a short description  I have not heard of this pattern and it has piqued my interest.  … *** W.D.Grey:  … Hook            TMC 7999, Mustad 36890, sizes2-6 Thread          Black 6/0 prewaxed Tail            Red hackle fibres Rib             Fine oval silver tinsel  … *** Vincent Norris:  … The pattern Charlie presents on pages 197-8 of his  book, _Patterns, Hatches, Tactics, and Trout_, is entirely different from the one submitted above: Hook:    Mustad 94833, sizes #10-18 Thread:  Red Tails:   Brown hackle fibers Body:    Smolt blue Krystal Flash wound around the shank.  … *** Harry Mason:  … In retrospect:  …   A bit trite but it has some merit *** asadi: if you want to eat fish –  go to the grocery and get farm raised fish…the pressure is too great to sustain any but C and R.  … *** Moe Skeeter:  … This is the first mantra excerpted from the TU brainwashing tapes "Are you Lefty ?". *** Jonathan Cook:  … If there was only one white-only drinking fountain, would that make it OK? *** dave bottom:  … Stupid hyperbole. Not the same thing. Letting F&W manage waters with special regs to ensure that the fish survive makes sense to me. Now saying that I’d also like to say that as a parent of some kids, who don’t fly cast very well, having all/most/lots of water be special regs can be a hassle when trying to get your kid worming up some  … *** RLPPT: The situation in Pennsylvania is more complex than the substance of the original post.  A small but vocal group here called "TAP" (Traditional Anglers of Pennsylvania) are issuing a challenge that I always felt would eventually come..  Why are some of the best trout streams on public land managed under  … Talkway, Inc. http://www.talkway.com

Response:

[completely snipped: who needs it?] Talk about irony: the one endless thread that no roffian can escape is presented in Reader’s Digest fashion to the group that spawned the original. A mass of helpless bytes were thus senselessly slaughtered… What a waste… /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.               Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus                      Maynard, Massachusetts < < !!NOTE: Please replace "xxx" with "dec" to respond by email!!  < <<<<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely to be                     shared by my employer, etc…

Response:

Question:

i am still always amazed when i see farm raised goldens for consumption at safeway… TimW

Response:

(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra.

<SNIP Not necessarily so, last year caught a nice 14" golden at a lake whose elevation was at 8200 ft.  Tough to find goldens in the Sierra below 10,000 ft., but they are there.  Check out Ralph Cutter’s Sierra Trout Guide.  It has all the fishable waters in the Sierra listed by county and whether a lake or a stream.  The listing not only includes what type of trout are in evidence there, but also what elevation and which topographical map it it can be found on.                                  Dan Dan Gracia                                                               Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again.  So what if they eat other fish?  If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).

Response:

I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. No I won’t tell where.  It gets too much fishing preasure as it is. | |…… Seek harmony and balance in the mountains, find harmony and balance within…..

Response:

: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

: I agree that altitude is not the govering factor.  I know a lake in : the norther sierra’s with goldens.  The lake is at roughly 7000′. I saw a mess of Goldens for sale in my local grocery store.  I couldn’t believe it!  I thought these fish were fairly rare?

Those aren’t the same "goldens" that are often sought after here.  They’re farm grown fish with almost a solid gold color the bares no resemblance to the Volcano Creek or Little Kern Golden trout.  I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

I’ve seen some pictures of "golden" trout that have been introduced in some of the high country lakes in Wyoming and they also bare little resemblance to the High Sierra natives.  They’re complete devoid of par marks and don’t have the red fins of the V.C. or L.K. golden.  

That’s because they’ve grown to larger size.  I’ve caught small Goldens in Wyoming and Montana that fit your description.  The size of these smaller Wyoming trout matches the bigger California trout, and so does their coloration. Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Both rainbows and goldens loose their par marks as they get bigger.

Not so.  California (e.g. Kern) goldens keep the par marks through life. Matt Carey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

(AdFirmOne) writes: As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho. As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens.

Hi    Golden Trout were rainbow trout less than 50,000 years ago.  They evolved into goldens in the Kern River system as low as 7,000 ft. They are considered a high elevation fish largely because that was where we planted them in the mid 1800s and early 1900’s.  They have the ability to live in most waters that can support bows.    There are about a dozen roadside golden trout waters and many less than an hour from the car (don’t ask). You’ll need to do some sleuthing, but that’s half the fun!    Tight lines, Ralph —

Response:

Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

Response:

Matt      It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.      I think Convict lake’s resort used to have an internet site. Look for it at any web search engine (webcrawler, altavista, infoseek, etc.). This used to be one of my favorite fishing spots. Watch the weather reports for the storms come upon this area VERY quickly. HTH Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I tried to post something like this already, but it doesn’t seem to have made it. My family is going on a weekend trip camping and fishing.  We are looking for possible sites to find some golden trout, but with the tight constraints–we are on a 2-day weekend trip.  This limits how far we can pack in and how far from LA (where the rest of my family lives) we can go. Any information would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks, Matt Carey

Response:

In ‘89 I did a trip up to Lake Mildred (or Martha, not sure of the name)…it’s the first lake in the chain above Convict. That lake produced many fish, but no goldens…Convict Lake was terribly crowded and I’m sure it hasn’t gotten any better…. I’ll be fishing in the Lone Pine/Whiteny area the 4th of July weekend…hoping to get up to some of the higher lakes in that area…I’ll let you all know what happens.

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

Response:

There are a few places that do not require 8 hour hikes. More like 15 minutes or less. (These places should be held dear, but they do not hold large goldens-if there are such a thing). Some of these are roads approaching the Kern River drainage and some of the Sierra mountain pass roads. Mail me directly and I can give you a little more info. -Don M.

Response:

Matt     It has been a few years but about 30-40  miles north of Bishop is a lake called convict lake. It’s fising used to be outstanding. Hike above this lake they say about 3 miles and you come to some very high mountain lakes that used to have golden trout. I tried this hike once with may not so good leg and never reached these lakes but am told they are there and seen them on the maps.

There are quite a few lakes in this area along the eastern slope of the Sierra that are about the same distance from a lake that you can drive to.  Go up over Piute pass (out of Rock Creek) and you’ll get into some good Golden Trout country as well.  In the June Lake area Gibbs and Kidney lake are about the same distance *up* as the lake above Convict lake.  There are some golden trout lakes in the Mammoth Lakes and 20 Lakes Basin (near Saddlebag Lake). I even know of a lake that you can drive to that is a bit further north that has Golden trout in it. I’m a bit reluctant to provide a lot of details about a lot of these places however.  I wouldn’t have hesitated about 3-4 years ago but with the commercialization of the net I’m afraid that I’d see a pay-per-view web site or a 1-900 number with all the Golden trout lakes for anyone (and everyone) to use to find these spots.   — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these beautiful fish. Good luck tho.

As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Stuff Deleted… As I said, I know of one lake that contains goldens that can be reach by vehicle with sufficient ground clearance.  I also know of several others that require no more then an hour hike.  None of these are going to be high producers.  I would guess that none of these lakes are higher then 10,500′ in elevation either.  I’m not so sure that 10.5K or even 10K is some sort of magic number for Sierra Goldens. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Elevation isn’t the determining factor, as you have said. It’s the temp. and cleanness of the water. It’s just that you tend to find both at higher elevations. It also seems that you are fishing the same places I am. Please don’t post the locations. It took me years of hiking and searching to find these places. I would hate to see them become the next hot spot to go fly fishing. Darryl Hayashida

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AdFirmOne sandbags: : As you probably know, Goldens live above the 10,500 foot range.  I’ve : fished for them quite a bit in the eastern Sierra. All the trips required : at least a 8 hour hike in to get beyond the rainbows and brookies.  A : short trip like yours doesn’t promise much when searching out these : beautiful fish. Good luck tho. Nice try- Do you think the Kern is at 10.5K?  More like 6,000.  Basically, Goldens live in clean, cold water and are very sensitive to environmental impact.  There really is no altitude limit, as evidenced by their presence in many lakes and streams throughout the easter sierras.  Sure, you can hike to lakes at 9,000-10,000 ft. and catch goldens.  In fact, the DFG uses some remote lakes around cottonwood pass for hatcheries (*DO NOT* fish at these lakes- it’s illegal).  However, this does not mean that goldens aren’t found at lower elevations.  Many streams are within a few hours hike, and some lakes have parking lots a few miles from the shore- both contain goldens. Get a topo, and call some fly shops in the bishop area. Best regards, Hans — "The worst monotonous drone coming from a lectern or the most eye-splitting textbook written in turgid English is nothing in comparison to the psychological Sahara that starts right in your bedroom and spurns the horizon."         -Joseph Brodsky, from "In praise of Boredom"          delivered as a commencement address at Dartmouth College. Hans T.H. Beernink, Department of Biochemistry, University of Vermont

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Hey John Fereira!    My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?    This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry, — lukn4fish Bob San Jose, Ca

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Hey John Fereira!   My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?   This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry,

Yes, it was posted here, in rec.outdoors.fishing, and in news.groups. I vote YES for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying or I vote NO for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying as the only line in the text of the message. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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[snip] Before I go any further, let me state that I’m cheap, and really don’t want to spend more than $150 for a rod.  That being the case I have narrowed down my choices to two rods by Cortland; a 7′ 3/4 weight, or a 7.5′ 4/5 weight.  Now I already have a reel loaded up with 4 weight line. My question is for my type of fishing which rod would work best? Will the 7′ 3/4weight  rod get overloaded with a 4 weight line on long casts (not that these streams have very many places to make long casts)?  Will the 7.5′ 4/5weight rod be too stiff to load up properly with 4weight line on short casts (most of the casting type I do) and hence lose control and finesse? Any thoughts and/or suggestions?

The two line weight ratings usually refer to a double-taper line (the lower weight) and a weight-forward line (the higher weight). Eg: a 7′ 3/4 should load correctly with either a DT3 or a WF4… If the line you already own is a WF4, you’re probably all set for now –   although when you eventually replace that line, I’d go with a DT3: working a small stream with a 7′ rod (I have a Winston 7′6"/2wt for this) I favor a DT line for at least two reasons: roll casting a DT is a heck of a lot more effective than trying to do the same with a WF line; and a DT line lends itself to finesse than a WF (the latter tends to land with a splash). Regards, /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.    Alpha Server Engineering  < <           "Read this and nobody gets hurt"           < <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question regarding rods that have ratings for 2 fly line weights.  First let me explain my situation.  I mostly fish small streams, where the trout rarely exceed 12" and the brush and trees make for very tight quarters.  I’m considering the purchase of another rod.  My current 8.5′ 7weight is too big for this type of fishing.   Before I go any further, let me state that I’m cheap, and really don’t want to spend more than $150 for a rod.  That being the case I have narrowed down my choices to two rods by Cortland; a 7′ 3/4 weight, or a 7.5′ 4/5 weight.  Now I already have a reel loaded up with 4 weight line. My question is for my type of fishing which rod would work best? Will the 7′ 3/4weight  rod get overloaded with a 4 weight line on long casts (not that these streams have very many places to make long casts)?  Will the 7.5′ 4/5weight rod be too stiff to load up properly with 4weight line on short casts (most of the casting type I do) and hence lose control and finesse?

Okay, This culd be answered in a long missive going into theory of graphite modules, but… A dual rated rod is like any other rod, it’s just being a bit more accurate about what you can do. That is, any rod will handle more than one weight, the weight orinted on it is what the designers had in mind. A 4/5 rod will act a bit stiffer and thus a shade less responsive with a 4 weight line than with the 5 line. On the other hand, a 4/5 with the 4 will shoot line farther and will be a quicker rod to set the hook with. Finesse is sort of in between the two, you will have lots of power and be able to straighten the 4 out, but with a 5 you’ld get better "feel". Hope this helps, ask away if you need more. Bill Curry Tight Lines Tackle shop and Guide Service Lockeport, Nova Scotia, Canada Ph/Fax : 902-656-3329

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I have a question regarding rods that have ratings for 2 fly line weights.  First let me explain my situation.  I mostly fish small streams, where the trout rarely exceed 12" and the brush and trees make for very tight quarters.  I’m considering the purchase of another rod.  My current 8.5′ 7weight is too big for this type of fishing.   Before I go any further, let me state that I’m cheap, and really don’t want to spend more than $150 for a rod.  That being the case I have narrowed down my choices to two rods by Cortland; a 7′ 3/4 weight, or a 7.5′ 4/5 weight.  Now I already have a reel loaded up with 4 weight line. My question is for my type of fishing which rod would work best? Will the 7′ 3/4weight  rod get overloaded with a 4 weight line on long casts (not that these streams have very many places to make long casts)?  Will the 7.5′ 4/5weight rod be too stiff to load up properly with 4weight line on short casts (most of the casting type I do) and hence lose control and finesse? Any thoughts and/or suggestions? Thanks, D.P. Ignorance is bliss.

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I have a question regarding rods that have ratings for 2 fly line weights…… <mostly fish small streams…. I have narrowed down my choices to two rods by Cortland; a 7′ 3/4 weight, or a 7.5′ 4/5 weight….. Now I already have a reel loaded up with 4 weight line….. My question is for my type of fishing which rod would work best? Any thoughts and/or suggestions? Thanks, D.P.

Hey, D.P. The long and the short of it is test cast them.  I have not cast either rod you mention and without knowing the action of the rod it is not possible to answer your question (not that I will let that stop me), so your best bet is to stick a leader on your 4WT line with a piece of yarn attached and try them out. I suspect you will find that the 3/4 is the better choice. In general for short cast situations going one line size up gives you better loading of the rod, and thus higher lines speed. Course the argument can be made that at short distances you do not get much of loading of the rod anyways and you are actually casting the line alone and therefore could use a broomstick for all the difference it would make,  I tend to figure people with that kind of attitude are Insensitive wretches who have no appreciation of the finer things in life. P.S.  If you have not tried out the ST CROIX rods give them a check too. I don’t know about their shorter rods but the 9 FT. 5 WT is the best casting rod for it’s price on the market (IMHO).   Steven B.

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