Question:

What other forms of government issued id except for passport, driver’s license or state id card are valid for boarding a plane?  If I have a badge from a government agency that has my name and picture is that considered "governmnet issued"?   Bob

Response:

What other forms of government issued id except for passport, driver’s license or state id card are valid for boarding a plane?  If I have a badge from a government agency that has my name and picture is that considered "governmnet issued"?

In the past couple years I’ve flown with people from State, Justice, Homeland Security, and HHS and they’ve all managed with just their photo badge. If yours is from a satellite office of the Department of Collectible Miniatures Assessment or something then you might want to go ahead and dust off the driver’s license. miguel — See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

Response:

This was before the 11th, but a Delta person explained it to me once (because my license was not with me at the time, I know, check before leaving home) that anything issued by any government would be OK.  Voter Reg, passport, fishing license, library card etc.  At the time if you didn’t have a photo ID then a government issued something and another piece of ID worked. I actually ended up using my car insurance ID card (had the state’s name on it and my name on it and another ID and they said OK to fly.  Running back to get it from the lot stunk, but I got on the plane. So, I would assume you would be ok with a badge and picture. As an aside, the photo ID or one government issued non photo and one other still appears to be in place at the airlines, this is from one site, so the library card and credit card would in theory still work, though I wouldn’t want to test it.  The Airline may use these guidelines to issue the ticket and boarding pass, though I don’t believe the TSA has anything other then a Photo ID in their policies. —-start All passengers over the age of 18 are required to provide positive identification for travel at check-in. A photo ID issued by a local, state or federal government agency, or two forms of non-photo ID (at least one issued by a local, state, or federal government agency, such as a Social Security card) are acceptable forms of identification to present at check-in. If traveling outside the country, please remember to keep your passport and/or travel documents on you or in your carry-on bag at all times. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What other forms of government issued id except for passport, driver’s license or state id card are valid for boarding a plane?  If I have a badge from a government agency that has my name and picture is that considered "governmnet issued"?   Bob

Response:

This was before the 11th, but a Delta person explained it to me once (because my license was not with me at the time, I know, check before leaving home) that anything issued by any government would be OK.  Voter Reg, passport, fishing license, library card etc.  At the time if you didn’t have a photo ID then a government issued something and another piece of ID worked. I actually ended up using my car insurance ID card (had the state’s name on it and my name on it and another ID and they said OK to fly.  Running back to get it from the lot stunk, but I got on the plane. So, I would assume you would be ok with a badge and picture.

Just last week, a friend of mine got to the airport and discovered that he’d grabbed his wife’s passport instead of his own on his way out the door that morning.  This friend doesn’t drive, so no license.  He went through everything in his wallet.  No picture cards or badges of any sort.   The check-in agent was apparently satisfied that he was who he said he was, and she told him that security would give him the full inspection. So he got the total body wanding and had all his carry-ons searched.  It was determined that he posed no threat to anyone and he got on the plane. His wife overnighted the right passport to his hotel. So the photo ID thing is mostly charade.  Considering that any 16-year-old knows where to get a fake ID, it seems rather pointless.

Response:

What other forms of government issued id except for passport, driver’s license or state id card are valid for boarding a plane?  If I have a badge from a government agency that has my name and picture is that considered "governmnet issued"?   Bob

For an authoritative answer, check with the airline. If you’re referring to a flight that originates in the United States, you can also probably find this information on the web at http://www.tsa.gov or perhaps at http://travel.state.gov

Response:

What other forms of government issued id except for passport, driver’s license or state id card are valid for boarding a plane?  If I have a badge from a government agency that has my name and picture is that considered "governmnet issued"?   Bob

Short answer – yes.

Response:

What other forms of government issued id except for passport, driver’s license or state id card are valid for boarding a plane?  If I have a badge from a government agency that has my name and picture is that considered "governmnet issued"?   Bob

In which country? Cheers, Jason.

Response:

Last year, my husband lost his driver’s license while we were down in Arizona.  He didn’t realize it until he was checking in at the airport. The only thing with his picture on it was his Jury license from the International Bobsled and Skeleton Federation.  He showed it and he was let through Security. Kitty Panza

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good Evening…. It’s been an interesting winter here on r.o.f.f., and I must say it’s been difficult to keep my mouth shut on a number of the more controversial issues…..but I wanted to actually think about my response(s) to a number of subjects before I spouted off…if you may be offended by a different opinion than yours….DELETE NOW Trolling And Ethics… Being one of those Streamer fishermen from Maine, who likes to troll along shore in my canoe, or along the edge of the retreating ice,  I am perplexed by everyone getting uptight about defining this practice as flyfishing or not….FWIW…I look at it this way:  There is "flyfishing", and there is "fishing with a fly".  Neither is superior to the other….both require the angler to choose an immitation to best match the "natural", in this case the predominant forage fish. The gear used may be identical in both types of fishing (perhaps not), but the key difference is the method of presenting the fly.  In my definition, "flyfishing" involves casting a fly/streamer, and also a retrieve. "Fishing with a fly" doesn’t normally meet these presentation criteria. As far as the ethics thing is concerned….I’ll simply say that just because you consider "flyfishing" superior to "fishing with a fly", doesn’t make it so.  I participate in both activities without guilt All to often nowadays…people seem to have adopted a "holier than thou art" attitude….call it human nature?  Leave it at home when you come to Maine, Please.  We let everyone fish here. Yuppification and Warrantees…. The sport of flyfishing has become a very fashionable thing to do nowadays….and if you don’t truly attain some sort of transcendental state whilst doing it….fake it.  Taking up flyfishing also automatically qualifies you as an adventurer and outdoorsman/woman, though I prefer to think of the Yuppies as "Weekend Grizzly Adams’s"…It’s quite comical actually…until they realize there are no streetlights or phone booths to dial 911 in the backcountry. I once had a 9′ 5wt Double L Rod from LL Bean…it’s now 8′10.5"…I broke the tip….it was NOT a manufacturer’s defect….it was operator error….I will not return it.  To those who have slammed rods in car doors, etc. and demanded they be replaced under warranty….Thanks a bunch….I appreciate paying $100 more per rod for your clumsiness, and lack of personal responsibility. Hatches…. Many folks really enjoy studying entimology, and learning every species, genus, and phylum….good for you!  I hope you get enjoyment from that!  Many of us are perfectly content with common names for insects, however…..Sulphurs, BWO’s, Red Quills….are the names I use, and I have flies to match them in size, shape, color, and sillouhette.   It’s still flyfishing, and I catch plenty of fish. Smoking and Black Flies…. I’m planning to quit this summer….after the black fly season during spring fishing….don’t know what I’ll do next spring.  I appreciate all of the non-smokers concern for those of us who do enjoy a smoke….we know you’re concerned….we know the health risks….but believe me…you accomplish nothing by repeating this information ad nauseum to us.  Please refrain….I carry out all litter, and I’ll stand downwind from you.  I promise. There…I feel much better now.  Time to enter Lurk Mode again! Regards, R.A. Skehan

I feel better, too. Catch what you eat, eat what you catch, enjoy the trip.  Pretty simple, really.  Everything else is just details. If you want to just mess around with the fish, buy an aquarium. Donning my asbestos suit, Jim Wagner — Jim Wagner http://www.pagesz.net/~n4svz

Response:

Catch what you eat, eat what you catch, enjoy the trip.  Pretty simple, really.  Everything else is just details.

You mean, like the beer ? Now yours is a slogan I can live with. TimW

Response:

Excellent post. Right on the mark as I troll streamers as well as "flycast". Trolling streamers is a time honored tradition and a great way to relax and take in the surroundings. I have caught many nice Landlocks on Munsungan Lake this way.  If we see fish working, then we reel in and cast to them. As far as yuppification, I agree but don’t see anything we can do about it other than make fun.

Response:

perhaps the best post I’ve read all week! Superior to the ralph H / Moe Skeeter diatibes Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Good Evening…. It’s been an interesting winter here on r.o.f.f., and I must say it’s been difficult to keep my mouth shut on a number of the more controversial issues…..but I wanted to actually think about my response(s) to a number of subjects before I spouted off…if you may be offended by a different opinion than yours….DELETE NOW Trolling And Ethics… Being one of those Streamer fishermen from Maine, who likes to troll along shore in my canoe, or along the edge of the retreating ice,  I am perplexed by everyone getting uptight about defining this practice as flyfishing or not….FWIW…I look at it this way:  There is "flyfishing", and there is "fishing with a fly".  Neither is superior to the other….both require the angler to choose an immitation to best match the "natural", in this case the predominant forage fish. The gear used may be identical in both types of fishing (perhaps not), but the key difference is the method of presenting the fly.  In my definition, "flyfishing" involves casting a fly/streamer, and also a retrieve. "Fishing with a fly" doesn’t normally meet these presentation criteria.   As far as the ethics thing is concerned….I’ll simply say that just because you consider "flyfishing" superior to "fishing with a fly", doesn’t make it so.  I participate in both activities without guilt All to often nowadays…people seem to have adopted a "holier than thou art" attitude….call it human nature?  Leave it at home when you come to Maine, Please.  We let everyone fish here. Yuppification and Warrantees…. The sport of flyfishing has become a very fashionable thing to do nowadays….and if you don’t truly attain some sort of transcendental state whilst doing it….fake it.  Taking up flyfishing also automatically qualifies you as an adventurer and outdoorsman/woman, though I prefer to think of the Yuppies as "Weekend Grizzly Adams’s"…It’s quite comical actually…until they realize there are no streetlights or phone booths to dial 911 in the backcountry. I once had a 9′ 5wt Double L Rod from LL Bean…it’s now 8′10.5"…I broke the tip….it was NOT a manufacturer’s defect….it was operator error….I will not return it.  To those who have slammed rods in car doors, etc. and demanded they be replaced under warranty….Thanks a bunch….I appreciate paying $100 more per rod for your clumsiness, and lack of personal responsibility. Hatches…. Many folks really enjoy studying entimology, and learning every species, genus, and phylum….good for you!  I hope you get enjoyment from that!  Many of us are perfectly content with common names for insects, however…..Sulphurs, BWO’s, Red Quills….are the names I use, and I have flies to match them in size, shape, color, and sillouhette.   It’s still flyfishing, and I catch plenty of fish. Smoking and Black Flies…. I’m planning to quit this summer….after the black fly season during spring fishing….don’t know what I’ll do next spring.  I appreciate all of the non-smokers concern for those of us who do enjoy a smoke….we know you’re concerned….we know the health risks….but believe me…you accomplish nothing by repeating this information ad nauseum to us.  Please refrain….I carry out all litter, and I’ll stand downwind from you.  I promise. There…I feel much better now.  Time to enter Lurk Mode again! Regards, R.A. Skehan

Response:

Good Evening…. It’s been an interesting winter here on r.o.f.f., and I must say it’s been difficult to keep my mouth shut on a number of the more controversial issues…..but I wanted to actually think about my response(s) to a number of subjects before I spouted off…if you may be offended by a different opinion than yours….DELETE NOW Trolling And Ethics… Being one of those Streamer fishermen from Maine, who likes to troll along shore in my canoe, or along the edge of the retreating ice,  I am perplexed by everyone getting uptight about defining this practice as flyfishing or not….FWIW…I look at it this way:  There is "flyfishing", and there is "fishing with a fly".  Neither is superior to the other….both require the angler to choose an immitation to best match the "natural", in this case the predominant forage fish. The gear used may be identical in both types of fishing (perhaps not), but the key difference is the method of presenting the fly.  In my definition, "flyfishing" involves casting a fly/streamer, and also a retrieve. "Fishing with a fly" doesn’t normally meet these presentation criteria.   As far as the ethics thing is concerned….I’ll simply say that just because you consider "flyfishing" superior to "fishing with a fly", doesn’t make it so.  I participate in both activities without guilt All to often nowadays…people seem to have adopted a "holier than thou art" attitude….call it human nature?  Leave it at home when you come to Maine, Please.  We let everyone fish here. Yuppification and Warrantees…. The sport of flyfishing has become a very fashionable thing to do nowadays….and if you don’t truly attain some sort of transcendental state whilst doing it….fake it.  Taking up flyfishing also automatically qualifies you as an adventurer and outdoorsman/woman, though I prefer to think of the Yuppies as "Weekend Grizzly Adams’s"…It’s quite comical actually…until they realize there are no streetlights or phone booths to dial 911 in the backcountry. I once had a 9′ 5wt Double L Rod from LL Bean…it’s now 8′10.5"…I broke the tip….it was NOT a manufacturer’s defect….it was operator error….I will not return it.  To those who have slammed rods in car doors, etc. and demanded they be replaced under warranty….Thanks a bunch….I appreciate paying $100 more per rod for your clumsiness, and lack of personal responsibility. Hatches…. Many folks really enjoy studying entimology, and learning every species, genus, and phylum….good for you!  I hope you get enjoyment from that!  Many of us are perfectly content with common names for insects, however…..Sulphurs, BWO’s, Red Quills….are the names I use, and I have flies to match them in size, shape, color, and sillouhette.   It’s still flyfishing, and I catch plenty of fish. Smoking and Black Flies…. I’m planning to quit this summer….after the black fly season during spring fishing….don’t know what I’ll do next spring.  I appreciate all of the non-smokers concern for those of us who do enjoy a smoke….we know you’re concerned….we know the health risks….but believe me…you accomplish nothing by repeating this information ad nauseum to us.  Please refrain….I carry out all litter, and I’ll stand downwind from you.  I promise. There…I feel much better now.  Time to enter Lurk Mode again! Regards, R.A. Skehan

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Overall, the article covers quite a bit and seems to be well researched although there was no mention of *my* baby, the flytying newsgroup. snip We still love you John. TimW The reference to Ted Williams was my selection for "who would you like to spend a day fishing with" — hardly a thread but I suppose they were trolling for references to their magazine. Now that I think of it, there aren’t many magazine references in ROFF or ROFFT. I certainly spend a lot more time these days fishing, tying and surfing the net and a lot less time reading magazines and watching TV. I cancelled FR&R last year and still haven’t read the September Fly Fisherman, let alone the just received December issue (don’t want to ruin the suspense by reading the November election results).

Me too.  The glossy magazines interest me little anymore.  There has to be something really worthwhile in an issue to buy one.   These newsgroups are much, much better. They are reader driven and not writer driven, in general.  In other words, ask and ye shall receive.  That is REAL value.  I’d just as soon not see the ng’s and the magazines cross paths, myself. TimW

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Overall, the article covers quite a bit and seems to be well researched although there was no mention of *my* baby, the flytying newsgroup. snip We still love you John. TimW The reference to Ted Williams was my selection for "who would you like to spend a day fishing with" — hardly a thread but I suppose they were trolling for references to their magazine. Now that I think of it, there aren’t many magazine references in ROFF or ROFFT. I certainly spend a lot more time these days fishing, tying and surfing the net and a lot less time reading magazines and watching TV. I cancelled FR&R last year and still haven’t read the September Fly Fisherman, let alone the just received December issue (don’t want to ruin the suspense by reading the November election results). Me too.  The glossy magazines interest me little anymore.  There has to be something really worthwhile in an issue to buy one.   These newsgroups are much, much better. They are reader driven and not writer driven, in general.  In other words, ask and ye shall receive.  That is REAL value.  I’d just as soon not see the ng’s and the magazines cross paths, myself. TimW

I still get value from the two magazines I get, FF in Salt Waters and Saltwater FF, though it certainly is different from what we have here ! I think SWFF is still new enough in printed word that the zines haven’t become too repetitive, although I think there is definitely a danger of this happening in the future. If I digress to the whole George Resign stuff, and I hate to do so, it seems to me that the magazine format would have been much better for him, having the ‘writer driven’ nature that Tim alludes to. The glossies are great places for established, experienced fishermen to convey information that the reader can take or leave. Which of course means the ngs are much more fun !                                                 jc

Response:

Overall, the article covers quite a bit and seems to be well researched although there was no mention of *my* baby, the flytying newsgroup.

hmmmmmm…. 8^) TimW

Response:

Overall, the article covers quite a bit and seems to be well researched although there was no mention of *my* baby, the flytying newsgroup.

It’s like the researcher that does a lifes work and it ends up in a University filing cabinet…then some beer swillin’ jet-setter with a word processor comes along and hacks out an article in an afternoon (you get a mention in the biblio) and the next thing you know he’s doing book signings at the fern bar. We still love you John. TimW

Response:

For those that haven’t seen it, the most recent issue of Fly Rod & Reel contains a seven page article on Flyfishing and the Internet. I did a brief scan of the article and it primarily talks about various web sites and includes a pretty extensive list of sites and describes some of the bigger sites such as Virtual Fly Shop, and several others. There is also a short section on "mailing lists and non-profit sites" (hint to commercial advertisers in r.o.f.f.) which includes a couple of short references to this newsgroup.  Here’s how they described us… "Sometimes outrageous and always interesting, the newsgroup is worth a regular stop.  The last time I checked there were threads on the influx of newcomers to Montan (don’t leave your California-plated car alone at night), on women fly fishers and on the work of FR&R conservation editor Ted Williams [ does anyone remember this last thread? - john].  There was also a considerable section written have thread with cow magnet haiku? Overall, the article covers quite a bit and seems to be well researched although there was no mention of *my* baby, the flytying newsgroup. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

Response:

Overall, the article covers quite a bit and seems to be well researched although there was no mention of *my* baby, the flytying newsgroup. snip We still love you John. TimW

The reference to Ted Williams was my selection for "who would you like to spend a day fishing with" — hardly a thread but I suppose they were trolling for references to their magazine. Now that I think of it, there aren’t many magazine references in ROFF or ROFFT. I certainly spend a lot more time these days fishing, tying and surfing the net and a lot less time reading magazines and watching TV. I cancelled FR&R last year and still haven’t read the September Fly Fisherman, let alone the just received December issue (don’t want to ruin the suspense by reading the November election results). Doug

Response:

Question:

Please don’t feed the this monster of a thread.  Mr. Wieser is just waiting to pounce.  Check out his page, wage legal war with him via. e-mail, but please, we beg of you, don’t get him started on r.b.p… – Bill Herring – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott Weiser Wrote Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them. That is absolutely untrue.  That river gets "navigated" every year by hundreds if not thousands of people.  Stating that boaters are trespassing is like saying the folks who walk down the sidewalk in your front yard are trespassing–blatantly false.  Actually they probably cross the street in front of your house to avoid the possibility of armed conflict with a maniac.  

Response:

Many boaters have a bad habit of trashing the shoreline and than loudly proclaiming their rights to continue to navigate.

I must rise in protest! While it no doubt happens on rare occasion, I have NEVER seen a boater trash a shoreline ( I do not regard foot and butt prints as "trashing", and that’s about all we might leave behind)

Response:

Many boaters have a bad habit of trashing the shoreline

I don’t any who trash the shoreline, matter of fact most I know stay in their boats.  When I talked to a Ranger down on the Ark last year, he said boaters were pretty good, almost all the trash he picked up was fishing trash.  Since this issue came up, I’ve checked places like Sunshine in the Royal Gorge, the scouts and put-in at Gore, and other high traffic areas everytime I’m there, and there has never been anything in the way of trash. Matter of fact I challenge you or anyone to show me a place that is dominated by boaters, and is trashed out (at least in Colorado). –Chris

Response:

While land owners may own the land and riparian rights to the waters bottom, they do not in fact, own the water itself and I’m almost positive that any river can be "navigated" through private property.  It would certainly be nice to have the owners permission to avoid any misunderstandings and asking in advance could only help relations between the land owner and boaters.  Regardless of the legal issue here, I think I’d be inclined to opt for not trespassing if that’s what the land owner wished.  I can imagine if there was a pristine river running across my land I’d not want a bunch of canoes and kayaks traversing it every day. Many boaters have a bad habit of trashing the shoreline and than loudly proclaiming their rights to continue to navigate.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scott Weiser Wrote Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them. That is absolutely untrue.  That river gets "navigated" every year by hundreds if not thousands of people.  Stating that boaters are trespassing is like saying the folks who walk down the sidewalk in your front yard are trespassing–blatantly false.  Actually they probably cross the street in front of your house to avoid the possibility of armed conflict with a maniac.   tdq

Yesssss!  And SET the hook!  Now, let the little bugger run till he tires and reel him in… Sorry, you are quite wrong.  Floating through private property in Colorado without the permission of the landowner is a criminal trespass.  Just because people get away with it doesn’t make it legal. You might want to check out my website for a discussion of this issue. http://spot.Colorado.EDU/~weisers I guess it’s time for yet another round of this ongoing discussion.   Let the games begin! — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

Response:

. . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?

Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks. — Richard Culpeper "Hour after hour, day after day, far from sight of shore, We laughed and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, Wanting never to return."         — Kimosippi ‘95 —

Response:

. . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette? Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks. — Richard Culpeper "Hour after hour, day after day, far from sight of shore, We laughed and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, Wanting never to return."         — Kimosippi ‘95 —

Paddlers usually aren’t trespassing along stream banks!!!  They are merely in transit from the put-in to the take-out!! terry dq

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   Hi everyone, This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!   I understand that the river is for everyone, and because of that I don’t cast when kayakers are around.  But I’d like to think they could show the same type of courtesy by moving through the area slowly and quietly.

Tom Visnius had a nice take on this issue as part of a story about a high-water descent of the Pigeon River Dries (NC).  The story was printed first in Messing About, the newsletter of the Western Carolina Paddlers.  Tom has since placed it in his homepage.  Read it at http:\www.cs.unca.edu/~johnsonk/club/pigeon.html. — Chris The relevant passage (by Tom Visnius): Phil and I were the only kayakers hanging out at the campground for a little while. As we waited, I asked a fly-fisherman about an etiquette issue that had been bothering me since my trip down Cataloochee Creek. On creeks in the Park, there’s not a lot of room for both hunter and boater, so it is crucial to communicate to each other how you would like to commingle. Does a boater give the fisher a wide berth, thereby floating directly over the trout that he has been sneaking up on? Or does a boater float right next to the fisher’s knees and risk an assault from a surprised sportsman? This result is not unlikely, so regardless of your right-of-way philosophy, it is worth noting that there are many fishermen who visit Smoky Mountain National Park, and boaters should attempt to communicate with them. Then proceed with caution. The fellow I talked to preferred the idea of boaters paddling close to him so as not to spook the trout.

Response:

I fished alot on the Arkansas and Animas river in Colorado.  The Animas is big enough that if your standing a few feet from one shore the rafter can go to the other side.  Most of the time I am nymphing fairly close to where I’m standing.  In the Arkansas case, its a little narrower and sometimes, if I notice them soon enough, I will step out of the water and let the kyaker or rafter float right over, or better yet to the shore side, of where I was standing. They are usually very willing to remove their feet and oars from the water as they pass by.  Most of them are quite willing to accomodate my directions if the water depth is OK. But you run into jerks in any endeavor. I wouldn’t let it ruin my day.   When it does happen I do get a little agitated and probably verbalize it but I try not to let it linger. Bill A.

Response:

People kayak the Big South occasionally, but they have keepers who take them back to the Home directly from the takeout so that they won’t be a danger to society.

I resemble…I mean resent that remark…. –Chris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette? Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks. — Richard Culpeper "Hour after hour, day after day, far from sight of shore, We laughed and sang and slept under the hot sun on the northern ocean, Wanting never to return."         — Kimosippi ‘95 — Paddlers usually aren’t trespassing along stream banks!!!  They are merely in transit from the put-in to the take-out!! terry dq

Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

Response:

Scott, Do us all a big favor and go crawl back under the rock you’ve been hiding under (or was that bloated mass you were cowering under your mother?). Your recent absence from this newsgroup has been wonderful. If you really were stupid enough to cast toward and snag someone (and from your posts, it seems likely you are), you would be entirely deserving of the beating your pathetic corpse received.

So sorry, I’ll try to interject more often, it certainly spices things up doesn’t it. Like I said, civil is as civil does. I just cast, if you happen to be in the way, too damned bad, you had plenty of time to see where I was fishing and avoid it, or at least do the polite thing and pass quietly behind me so as not to put the fish down for a half hour by your antics. If you act like a jerk, you get treated like a jerk.   — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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. . . what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette? Well, we’re both very polite to each other while we trespass along stream banks.

Er, actually, you are probably trespassing when you are *in* the river, boaters and fisherpersons alike, unless you are on Forest Service land or other public land. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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Scott Weiser Wrote Irrelevant. If you float through private property without permission, you are trespassing.  There are only two navigable waters in Colorado, and the Cache La Poudre is not one of them.

That is absolutely untrue.  That river gets "navigated" every year by hundreds if not thousands of people.  Stating that boaters are trespassing is like saying the folks who walk down the sidewalk in your front yard are trespassing–blatantly false.  Actually they probably cross the street in front of your house to avoid the possibility of armed conflict with a maniac.   tdq

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Organization: DirecPC   Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: host-37.customer.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Hi everyone, This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!   I understand that the river is for everyone, and because of that I don’t cast when kayakers are around.  But I’d like to think they could show the same type of courtesy by moving through the area slowly and quietly. I guess the easy solution to my problem is to find a section of the river that is kayaker/rafter free.  Does anyone know of any such section of the Poudre?  How about flyfishing only sections and/or catch and release sections? Any help/comments appreciated!  Thanks for reading this. Mike Stephens

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment. Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?  

I, fortunately, have had better experiences than this, being both a fisherman and a paddler on a river at different times. I think most fishermen & paddlers can peacefully co-exist most of the time. The biggest thing paddlers have to remember is that fish like to hang out in eddies also. Fortunately though, most good paddling areas are too strong to fish effectively. Paddle On… -Tom McIntire

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?  

(snip) It sucks. If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   (snip) It sucks. If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range. Scott Weiser

I see the hugely entertaining Mr. Wieser has once again blessed our humble piece of bandwidth with his presence. The above sounds like a great idea.  Someone is rude or comes too close, so you try to put a hook in them.  A very civil solution.  Or you could just "shoot to wound".  That’ll teach ‘em! – Bill Herring "Can’t we just all get along?" – Rodney King

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Can anyone tell me if they are happy with Nautiraid? I am thinking of a folding boat purchase but have not heard much about Nautiraid.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   (snip) It sucks. If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range. Scott Weiser I see the hugely entertaining Mr. Wieser has once again blessed our humble piece of bandwidth with his presence. The above sounds like a great idea.  Someone is rude or comes too close, so you try to put a hook in them.  A very civil solution.  Or you could just "shoot to wound".  That’ll teach ‘em!

Hey, *some* people are so dense they require operant conditioning and aversion therapy to get the message. Civil is as civil does. — Regards, Scott Weiser ****** "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend upon my friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" ****** The opinions expressed are my own.  If I were a lawyer, you’d be paying big bucks for this.  All complaints should be Copyright 1996 by Scott Weiser All rights of reproduction or distribution are retained by the author. PGP 2.62 public key fingerprint: A6 BD 79 21 A4 24 7B 10  F1 4C 2E BF D1 40 2A 0A

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What is a #10 Wooly Bugger?  Sounds like what my brother’s girlfriend used to call his… Whoops!  Sorry, gotta get back to work… Ed

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers! My personal opinion is that you should discreetly suggest that they move on…try a subtle suggestion… "GET THE HELL OUTTA MY DRIFT YOU YUPPIE BASTARD OR I’LL CREASE YOUR NOODLE" (Stolen without permission from "Fear of Flyfishing"). TimW (Only kidding, violence is not a good suggestion…now, letting the air out of the tires of their shuttle vehicle, THAT can be VERY effective and satisfying).

My thoughts exactly!  I’ve  had similar problems lately on the small river I fish in southwestern Michigan.  It’s quite popular with tubers.   Right now, the window of opportunity for a flyfisherman is limited to approx. a half hour to an hour before dark.  I was out on Sunday and didn’t see a soul until just before dark.  Guess what?  I didn’t see any other fisherman but two separate groups of tubers floated by just as the fish were getting active.  While on the of the tubers was courteous enough to ask where I was fishing, his partner ignored me and floated right over a rising fish.  Then, the second group floated by a few minutes later and showed no consideration whatsoever.  There’s no way they could have finished their float trip by dark.  They have all damn day to float yet they choose to recreate at dusk showing no respect for anyone else.  It puts evil thoughts in your mind.  Of course, the obligatory floatilla of bobbing beer cans followed in close pursuit. BFisher

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Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!

My personal opinion is that you should discreetly suggest that they move on…try a subtle suggestion… "GET THE HELL OUTTA MY DRIFT YOU YUPPIE BASTARD OR I’LL CREASE YOUR NOODLE" (Stolen without permission from "Fear of Flyfishing"). TimW (Only kidding, violence is not a good suggestion…now, letting the air out of the tires of their shuttle vehicle, THAT can be VERY effective and satisfying).

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(snip) If I were fishing and someone pulled this on me, I’d tie on a #10 weighted Wooly Bugger on 15 lb. test tippet and thwack them smartly on the head.  With any luck, I’d even snag an expensive Goretex jacket and rip a great big hole in it, and maybe them. In fact, I did manage to puncture a polycheapo raft with a drunken lout in it on the Rogue River a couple of weeks ago who did exactly that. When I’m fishing, you’d better be polite, or stay out of range.

Scott, Do us all a big favor and go crawl back under the rock you’ve been hiding under (or was that bloated mass you were cowering under your mother?). Your recent absence from this newsgroup has been wonderful. If you really were stupid enough to cast toward and snag someone (and from your posts, it seems likely you are), you would be entirely deserving of the beating your pathetic corpse received. Regards, Andy The opinions expressed above are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I read this on the fly-fishing site and pass it on for comment.  Obviously, the people who slammed his fishing spot were jerks but what’s concensus for fisher-paddler etiquette?   Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly This weekend I had some bad experiences with kayakers while fishing the Cache La Poudre River in Colorado.  The river was full of kayakers and whitewater rafters.  To my surprise, the whitewater rafters were usually pretty courteous when passing my way (going well away from where I was fishing and coasting by as quietly as possible), but the kayakers were another story – they’d cruise by close to me, splashing each other, talking loudly – one group of four kayakers even stopped in the section I was fishing to perform maneuvers!   I understand that the river is for everyone, and because of that I don’t cast when kayakers are around.  But I’d like to think they could show the same type of courtesy by moving through the area slowly and quietly. I guess the easy solution to my problem is to find a section of the river that is kayaker/rafter free.  Does anyone know of any such section of the Poudre?  How about flyfishing only sections and/or catch and release sections?

I kayak sections of the Poudre below the Narrows regularly.  The water has indeed come down enough so that fishermen (and women) are starting to appear on sections that boaters use.  Earlier in the season, these sections are not really fishable, and much of it still cannot be waded. Commercial rafters on the Poudre usually don’t conflict with fisherpeople because they don’t eddy out very often.  They sail on by _everything_, and to give their customers the most exciting ride, they tend to look for the fastest current and the biggest waves, which will take them away from fisherpeople.  This search for excitement, however, sometimes causes inexperienced guides to flip rafts on otherwise inoccuous sections of the river, and they have been known to literally run over kayakers.  We generally sit in the eddies as they go by because of this. Reasonable kayakers usually stay away from fisherpeople.  The river, after all, is to be shared, and most kayakers do their playing in territory which is not very good for fishing.  Several possiblities for conflict on the Poudre do arise, however: 1.  The Filter Plant run has good holding and wading water and is quite     fishable.  Novice kayakers still use it, though, and they may not     yet be properly "socialized." 2.  The well-known pop-up hole on the Bridges run has an eddy immediately     below it where kayakers wait their turn to attempt enders.  I have     heard that a couple of fishermen have decided that they need to fish     that particular eddy, and they will attempt to drive kayakers away.     Sometimes they will appear when kayakers are there and demand that     they leave.  I have not personally observed this behavior. 3.  I encountered a fisherman at the bottom of PineView Falls who was     casting into an eddy on the far side of the river.  The area is not     wadeable, although the eddy may have held some fish.  The river is     narrow at that point, so the cast was easy, but the presence of his     line all the way across the river created a problem for any kayak or     raft running PineView. Other possibilities for conflict exist anywhere there is an eddy.  By the way, when communicating with fisherpeople, kayakers should be aware that they may refer to an eddy as a "hole," a term which has a different meaning for us! As for good fishing, a couple of places come to mind.  As I mentioned, much of the Filter Plant run is pretty good, and has reduced kayak traffic when the water is low.  Keep #1 above in mind, however.  What traffic there is may be irritating because they don’t know any better. The section above the low bridge below Rustic is rumored to be excellent trout water, and the flatwater curves below the fish hatchery (the Indian Meadows area) are well-known for providing excellent fishing. Indian Meadows is wild trout water, with special restrictions on what you can keep.  No problem for catch-and-release. The Big South fork has some nice fishing water about half a mile from the highway.  People kayak the Big South occasionally, but they have keepers who take them back to the Home directly from the takeout so that they won’t be a danger to society.      John Cooley

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Question:

Vacationing on Trinity lake this year in early july, first time in the area and hoping for suggestions                   thanx, Josh Sauter

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Vacationing on Trinity lake this year in early july, first time in the area and hoping for suggestions                  thanx, Josh Sauter

……they have the best fly shop and guide servise in that area. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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22:27:09 -0700 writes:

: :Vacationing on Trinity lake this year in early july, :first time in the area and hoping for suggestions :                  thanx, Josh Sauter Trinity Lake is difficult to flyfish, because of its size and depth. However Lewiston Lake nearby and the Trinity River (fly fishing only section available) are excellent choices. Also Coffee Creek near Trinity Lake sometimes has good fishing. Check with the Fly Shop in Redding CA. They have an 800 no. There is also a Trinity something flyshop which is quite good. I jsut can’t think of the full name. George Berns Trout Live in Beautiful Places

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Question:

Hi, I went to the fly fishing course my instructor has taught me to keep the rod straight against my wrist during the entire motion.  He said to prevent RSI and have a smooth motion that won’t tire me out. I watched a video last night from Bass Pro Shops that said I should use my wrist to power the rod. My instructor was German, Who is it really done? Thanks John

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Hi, I went to the fly fishing course my instructor has taught me to keep the rod straight against my wrist during the entire motion.  He said to prevent RSI and have a smooth motion that won’t tire me out. I watched a video last night from Bass Pro Shops that said I should use my wrist to power the rod. My instructor was German, Who is it really done?

Hi John, Without getting into a lengthy discussion here, I might suggest that your casting instructor is correct. I would highly recommend Mel Krieger’s excellent video entitled "The Essence of Fly Casting" . In it, he explains the mechanics of fly casting in an easy to understand manner. I hope this helps,   Alan.   Alan Barnard   Kiene’s Fly Shop   Sacramento, California   WWW Fly Tyer   http://www.ns.net/~barnard

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Hi, I went to the fly fishing course my instructor has taught me to keep the rod straight against my wrist during the entire motion.  He said to prevent RSI and have a smooth motion that won’t tire me out. I watched a video last night from Bass Pro Shops that said I should use my wrist to power the rod. My instructor was German, Who is it really done? Thanks John

Hi Jon-    I would hope both your sources are correct. NO you should not lock the rod against the wrist during the entire casting motion.    I’m guessing he overemphasized the stiff wrist thing because he noted a tendency for you to use your wrist excessively. A lot of beginners use their wrist exclusively and others develop a real floppy wrist motion that blows any chance for a tight loop.    I have some friends from San Francisco with very limp wrists but they’re still excellent casters.    But then again, I’m Scotch.    -Ralph —

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: Hi, : I went to the fly fishing course my instructor has taught me to keep the : rod straight against my wrist during the entire motion.  He said to : prevent RSI and have a smooth motion that won’t tire me out. : I watched a video last night from Bass Pro Shops that said I should use : my wrist to power the rod. : My instructor was German, Who is it really done? There are many ways. I’ve seen a *lot* of different styles, but the best caster I know uses mainly forearm motion and a bit of wrist. What’s more important is adapting your casting motion to the weight of the rod and line. What *is* important is to avoid letting the wrist flex as you begin the forward stroke; keep it rigid at this point. Some novies tend to allow the wrist to flex, so while the arm starts moving, the tip of the rod remains motionless, and the line drops. Focus on the tip; concentrate on how the tip is moving through the air, not the butt where you’re holding the rod. Economy of motion and getting a feel for the rhythm of the rod and line are the keys to an efficent casting style. –mike

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I went to the fly fishing course my instructor has taught me to keep the rod straight against my wrist during the entire motion.  He said to prevent RSI and have a smooth motion that won’t tire me out. I watched a video last night from Bass Pro Shops that said I should use my wrist to power the rod. My instructor was German, Who is it really done? Thanks John   I have some friends from San Francisco with very limp wrists but they’re still excellent casters.

I *bet* you do, sailor. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Question:

Will be going to the Eugene area in mid-May to fish with my father-in-law.  Does anyone know of some convenient locations to trout fish?  I would really appreciate some help.  Both spin and fly.

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Will be going to the Eugene area in mid-May to fish with my father-in-law. Does anyone know of some convenient locations to trout fish?  I would really appreciate some help.  Both spin and fly.

I would call Bob Guard at the Caddis Fly Shop in Eugene for some good info. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

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Will also be in Eugene fishing May 17-25. My friend is acting as our guide. He says the McKenzie has awesome caddis hatches this time of year. Will also be going to the Motolius River. He also recommended the Caddis Fly Shop. Good Luck and tight lines

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Will be going to the Eugene area in mid-May to fish with my father-in-law.  Does anyone know of some convenient locations to trout fish?  I would really appreciate some help.  Both spin and fly.

Fall creek is a small creek just outside of Eugene that has trout. If you have access to a boat the lower part of the McKenzie is great, if not just drive up hwy 126 along the river. Above Leaburg dam the water is small enough to wade and fish and they have recently stocked it so there will definately be some dumb easy to catch fish along with the natives.   Basicly just about any stream you see will have trout in it. Get a synopsis from a fishing shop if you don’t have one because some of the water has special restrictions, like no bait, barbless, fly fishing only and release of non-hatchery fish (can you believe it T-Bone, its the law and there are some huge wild redsides in the lower McKenzie because of it) Have fun and let us know how it went. Martin Allen

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Question:

We’re pleased and excited to announce the birth of a brand new and very different quarterly publication covering the woods and waters of the Salmon River/Eastern Lake Ontario area. As a logical extension of our popular WEB site ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’ we’ll be visiting "The Fly Zone" with Fran Verdoliva, checking out "The Tackle Box" with Jim Dence, following Peter’s wanderings in his "Thompson At Large" column, getting "A View from the Treestand" with yours truly, locating and evaluating country real estate with Christine Nixon, finding out what’s hot and what’s not with Fred David, locating cool new fishing links compliments of Jim Walker, snow sledding the Tug Hill Plateau, visiting with DEC biologists, local taxidermists, antique shops, our salmon and trout hatchery, state forests and parks, and so much more! We plan to hit the presses in late June, and be available free at local and out-of-state sport shops by July 1. Yours in the Outdoors, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

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As a logical extension of our popular web site ‘http://www.salmon-river.com, we’re excited to announce the beginnings of our print publication "The Salmon River/Lake Ontario Experience." Scheduled to be in selected sport shops on July 1, SRLOE has been designed to be different. Upbeat, in-depth, accurate and professional coverage of the area’s woods and waters is what you’ll find from cover to cover. Visit Fran Verdoliva’s ‘Fly Zone’ Follow artist, guide and author Peter Thompson in ‘Thompson At Large" Master Angler Bill Ferman will show you his "Rivers and Creeks" I’ll share my "View From The Treestand" with you hunting folks Herald Journal columnist, Fred David, will tell you what’s hot and what’s not Sample some wild turkey recipes at "Laurie’s Smokehouse" Check out some cool fishing and hunting links courtesy of Jim Walker See what’s new in Jim Dense’s "Tackle Box" Visit some back country real estate with Christine Nixon Hit the trails on your snowsled or X-country skis, jig some perch through the ice, call in your first tom, check out the trout and salmon hatchery at Altmar or hear what our DEC personnel have to say. You get the picture. EVERYTHING our area has to offer-year round. If your favorite sport shop doesn’t have copies by July 1, ask them to have us send them some. Yours in the outdoors, Bill — Bill Fling                     Tel. (315) 298-3044 SALMON RIVER ANGLERS LODGE     FAX  (315) 298-2619 P.O. Box 353                   Rt. 13, Rome Road Pulaski, NY 13142-0353   ‘SALMON RIVER/LAKE ONTARIO SPORTFISHING REPORTS’             ‘http://www.salmon-river.com’

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Question:

Hi Mike With out a doubt you should fish Oatka Creek just south of Rochester. I have had extremely good times on that creek. A shop called Carl Coleman Sporting Goods in Spencerport, just west of Rochester has various maps of the areas streams and creeks that are fishable. Carls shop is a somewhat good one. Say Hi to him from me. He can set you up with the correct flies and any other equipment. He has about 5 bamboo rods that I am trying to get off of him but he is always fishing when I call.   No more than a 5 wgt is needed on the majority of the inland creeks and lakes. If you are going for some Steelheads then you will need a 6-9 wgt rod. I use a 2 wgt rod on Oatka and have a ball using it.   The Genesee River is not doing real well for the past 3 years or so. Catch you later Mike & Marie

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Mike: Oatka Creek (West of Rochester) is great in early May. The Henrickson hatch can be fantastic. Another place to try in the Rochester area is Spring Creek in Mumford (it empties into the Oatka). Also, Irondequoit Creek is on the other side of Rochester (East Side). Carl Coleman’s Fly Shop is located on the west side of town on 4786 W. Ridge Road. His phone number is 716-352-4775. Hope this helps. Bob Elliott

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I will be going home for the first time in a long time to Rochester.  I would like to fly fish streams, lakes and or ponds in the area. Potentially in the Finger Lakes area as well.  Any suggestions as tackle, location etc. would be of great help.  Thanks. Tight Lines, Michael Barnes

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Question:

: I was browsing around a couple weeks ago at the local Wal-mart and : came across "Spider Wire" – a braided Spectra fishing line. I’ve also : come across some in a Netcraft catalog – where its significantly : cheaper ($11-16 for 150 yards). [...] : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing [...] I have had much success on model rockets to use the pre-assembled fishing leaders that you find at Walmart, Kmart, etc.  Usually has 12" small diameter wire, with connector on one end, and snap swivel on the other.  Either mount them under a centering ring if length permits, or epoxy them to the airframe wall.  I suggest making the swivel about even with top of airframe to minimize zippering the body tube, but I’ve had good luck with letting them hang out.  Attach shock cord to swivel end of the leader. —          /       Lee Reep                    voice: 303/229-2010     /  /~~  /   Fort Collins, Colorado                TRA 2007

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Anyhow.. Here is number you call to get a Netcraft catalog.         1-800-638-2723 The address is:         Netcraft         2800 Tremainsville Road,         Toledo, OH 43613 Incidentally, besides the Spectra, they have a huge variety of other stuff that we’d all be interested in: snaps and swivels, steel leader wire, crimping sleeves, tools, carbon fiber fishing rod blanks, (small) Cyalume sticks (work great for low altitude rockets at night, but I’d use the larger 4 inchers for anything that goes above 200 feet), threads and line of all descriptions, storage boxes, etc. etc. Incidentally.. last night I was at the Wal Mart again and found another brand of Spectra line. The brand was "Lynch line". It came in test weights to 80 pounds and as little as 35 pounds. The 35# stuff, though, was the same diameter as the Spider Wire 50# test – .014". It was quite a bit cheaper than the Spider Wire. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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: Yesterday I was at the first (for me) contest of the season. I got a : kill off someone by snagging his streamer with my inboard leading : edge. Problem was the string the management supplies was a little too : think – it broke both spars and tore off half the inboard wing!  ^^^^^ Alright.  Make up your mind.  Thin or Thick.  (It could go either way.)

It was rope jr. ^_^;; Looks like I’m going to have to learn to splice wings.. my planes usually get thrown away (actually I have 15-20 moldering away in a closet ^_^;;) after getting damaged (usually because I come up with new hotter designs) but this one was the second newest one in my fleet! — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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: Yesterday I was at the first (for me) contest of the season. I got a : kill off someone by snagging his streamer with my inboard leading : edge. Problem was the string the management supplies was a little too : think – it broke both spars and tore off half the inboard wing!   ^^^^^ Alright.  Make up your mind.  Thin or Thick.  (It could go either way.) —

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What exactly is "parachute cord"? You don’t mean the stuff for full-size parachutes, do you? Incidentally, I hear that Kevlar lines need sleeving, too. I guess I’m showing my age by calling it that.  The stuff was developed for that use.  It comes in several diameters and you want the stuff that IS, indeed, useed in small parachutes (drag chutes).    People also use parachute cord to make "slinkies".  "Slinkies" are short  lengths of parachute cord stuffed with lead (preferably steel…) shot,  used as substitutes for sinkers/split shot in drift-fishing rivers/streams  with snaggy bottoms.  Slinkies are less prone to snagging.

So is Parachute Cord hollow, or do you have to pull the inner filler out? All the braided line I’ve seen has an inner core. What diameter are we talking about for sleeving? I imagine the stuff used for "slinkies" is of a larger diameter. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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The motor like sound comes from the vibrating trailing edge of the sail (fabric). Control lines can produce whistle like sound. Gee Simo…did you really think I didn’t know that?  I was joking about the motor.

Now you can be stronger in your faith… Simo —

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<questions about Spectra) : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing : ^_^;; In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly. For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years.

Heh… Speaking of cutting off wings.. Yesterday I was at the first (for me) contest of the season. I got a kill off someone by snagging his streamer with my inboard leading edge. Problem was the string the management supplies was a little too think – it broke both spars and tore off half the inboard wing! — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I was browsing around a couple weeks ago at the local Wal-mart and came across "Spider Wire" – a braided Spectra fishing line. I’ve also come across some in a Netcraft catalog – where its significantly cheaper ($11-16 for 150 yards). Apparently it comes in about 6 or 7 different thicknesses (.006 to ..013 inch) and 3 colors (green, grey, white) and is very strong. It doesn’t stretch. I will want to use the thin stuff for control-line wire for flying 1/2-As. Questions: 1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene) 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated   using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those   "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where   the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the   line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What   are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use? I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing

Wow!  Control line.  It’s been about 35 years since I fooled around with C/L.  – fun stuff.   I use the polypro stuff for fishing.  I’d say it is fairly resistant to sunlight and fuels.  I would suggest tying to a small snap using a polamar or a trilene knot, then "seal" the knot with a tiny drop of super-glue. I suspect you could fly a Cessna 180 with the .013 stuff  I think I would try something around .008 or about 20# test for 1/2 A. The stuff is real slippery (good for loops) and that quality can be enhanced by spraying with ACE or any other generic brand of silicone lubricant. Have fun.

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1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight

I’ve never had any problems with my lines deteriorating. 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene)

Wouldn’t know about this.  My kite sounds like it has a motor in it (several people have asked what kind of motor I’m using) but there really isn’t one…honest 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated   using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those   "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where   the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the   line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What   are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use?

I’d really like to hear what the fishing folks say about this as it’s the major bugaboo.  In kiting we sleeve each line before making a bend in it as the stuff is very brittle when bent.  We use parachute chord and thread the Spectra through it.  Then we can loop the cord back and tie it without problems.   This is true of normal fishing line as well and a simple knot will reduce the line strength by an order of magnitude.  Thus, there are several knots that try to get around this and are somewhat successful.  They amount to wrapping the line back on itself and around itself.  This increases strength by the simple redundancy so that the knot itself, while it weakens the area by the tying, doesn’t completely give up the strength.  In stunt kiting, though, we want 150-200lb test lines with the diameter of 6lb monofilament. I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing

This is really the downside of Spectra.  It’s SHARP.  Any stunt kiter who tells you they’ve never been cut by it either hasn’t used it very long or they’re lying — # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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Sleeving.. A needle of sorts.  Really nothing more than a loop of wire that’s pinched at two places to form an elongated loop.  You can then lay the line in one end and push the wire through.  You want something dull, though, so that you don’t tear through any fibres in the sleeving.  I’m sure you can buy sleeving at Into the Wind but I’ve just used parachute cord and it works fine.

What exactly is "parachute cord"? You don’t mean the stuff for full-size parachutes, do you? Incidentally, I hear that Kevlar lines need sleeving, too. Its Spectra vs. styrofoam, though. Maybe a spruce spar or two also. I don’t share the view that Spectra will always lose.  It’s not used on fighter kites because it is more brittle than other lines.  I doubt it would get through a spruce spar but it would likely take a considerable bite out of styrofoam.  The big problem would be cut-offs if it hit any of the clips, control cables, or metal/wood parts.  BTW, aren’t there rules against using anything but braided metal lines for anything but 1/2A?

Sullivan sells Kevlar control lines. They aren’t too popular, though. By the way, C/L airplanes behave much like stunt kites – you pull on one line and it turns one way, pull on the other and it goes the other Yeah, except you don’t have to worry about your competitor getting you upwind and loose

Yeah.. I’d like to see a kite fly upwind ^_^ The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way. What is the "Wal-Mart" use for Kevlar?  I’ve never used it for kite lines but from talking to those who have, it just doesn’t hold up like Spectra. Might be the lack of UV resistance but most folks chalk it up to being "too brittle".

Its fishing line. "Stren" brand, to be exact. On the same display case for that matter. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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Wouldn’t know about this.  My kite sounds like it has a motor in it (several people have asked what kind of motor I’m using) but there really isn’t one…honest

I noticed that in certain kites there is a motor like sound when they fly.  Is it caused by the control line or by the farbic of the kite itself? 874 Dillingham Blvd.       | Honolulu, HI 96817         | Ph#: (808) 845-9202        |

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How is this done? A needle? Where do you get the sleeving? "Into-the-Wind"? (I visited their showroom in Denver once, by the way..)

A needle of sorts.  Really nothing more than a loop of wire that’s pinched at two places to form an elongated loop.  You can then lay the line in one end and push the wire through.  You want something dull, though, so that you don’t tear through any fibres in the sleeving.  I’m sure you can buy sleeving at Into the Wind but I’ve just used parachute cord and it works fine. In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly. Its Spectra vs. styrofoam, though. Maybe a spruce spar or two also.

I don’t share the view that Spectra will always lose.  It’s not used on fighter kites because it is more brittle than other lines.  I doubt it would get through a spruce spar but it would likely take a considerable bite out of styrofoam.  The big problem would be cut-offs if it hit any of the clips, control cables, or metal/wood parts.  BTW, aren’t there rules against using anything but braided metal lines for anything but 1/2A? Something I’d forgotten to ask about is abrasion resistance and how easily it slides over itself. The stunt kite people ought to be able to answer this one.

This is not a problem.  You can wrap them up quite a lot before you start feeling friction problems.  It’s probably better than braided metal in this respect. By the way, C/L airplanes behave much like stunt kites – you pull on one line and it turns one way, pull on the other and it goes the other

Yeah, except you don’t have to worry about your competitor getting you upwind and loose For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years. The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way.

What is the "Wal-Mart" use for Kevlar?  I’ve never used it for kite lines but from talking to those who have, it just doesn’t hold up like Spectra. Might be the lack of UV resistance but most folks chalk it up to being "too brittle". — # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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Sleeves are short lengths of braided dacron line; these are hollow braids. You slip a length of it over the Spectra (long enough to cover entire loop and knotted area) and then make the loop with a double- overhand knot, being careful to keep the two parts parallel through the knot. Some people recommend two d-oh knots a short distance apart to prevent the Spectra slipping through the knot.

How is this done? A needle? Where do you get the sleeving? "Into-the-Wind"? (I visited their showroom in Denver once, by the way..) : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing : ^_^;; In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly.

Its Spectra vs. styrofoam, though. Maybe a spruce spar or two also. Something I’d forgotten to ask about is abrasion resistance and how easily it slides over itself. The stunt kite people ought to be able to answer this one. By the way, C/L airplanes behave much like stunt kites – you pull on one line and it turns one way, pull on the other and it goes the other way. The difference is that the lines are on a handle and you use one hand to do the controlling. I’ve seen stunt kites flown like this, except the "handle" is a 3 foot long broomstick. In fact, someone sells a "combat trainer" kite, ostensibly for learning how to fly C/L planes. There are also engineless C/L planes called "wind fliers". You fly them on the downwind side of the circle when the wind blows, assisting it now and then by whipping. For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years.

The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way. — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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The motor like sound comes from the vibrating trailing edge of the sail (fabric). Control lines can produce whistle like sound.

Gee Simo…did you really think I didn’t know that?  I was joking about the motor. — # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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What exactly is "parachute cord"? You don’t mean the stuff for full-size parachutes, do you? Incidentally, I hear that Kevlar lines need sleeving, too.

I guess I’m showing my age by calling it that.  The stuff was developed for that use.  It comes in several diameters and you want the stuff that IS, indeed, useed in small parachutes (drag chutes).  And yes, Kevlar should be sleeved also. Yeah.. I’d like to see a kite fly upwind ^_^

– # Canadian Forest Service              _||  |/|_                         # # Petawawa National Forestry Institute        /    Tel:  (613) 589-2880 # # Chalk River, Ontario  K0J 1J0         ______<     Fax:  (613) 589-2275 # # CANADA                                   /                              #

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Wouldn’t know about this.  My kite sounds like it has a motor in it (several people have asked what kind of motor I’m using) but there really isn’t one…honest I noticed that in certain kites there is a motor like sound when they fly.  Is it caused by the control line or by the farbic of the kite itself?

The motor like sound comes from the vibrating trailing edge of the sail (fabric). Control lines can produce whistle like sound. Simo —

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I’m cross-posting this to rec.fishing, and rec.kites (where Spectra lines have been used for a long time) in the hopes that I can get my questions answered. I was browsing around a couple weeks ago at the local Wal-mart and came across "Spider Wire" – a braided Spectra fishing line. I’ve also come across some in a Netcraft catalog – where its significantly cheaper ($11-16 for 150 yards). Apparently it comes in about 6 or 7 different thicknesses (.006 to .013 inch) and 3 colors (green, grey, white) and is very strong. It doesn’t stretch. I will want to use the thin stuff for control-line wire for flying 1/2-As. Questions: 1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene) 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated    using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those    "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where    the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the    line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What    are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use? I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing ^_^;; — Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala

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<questions about Spectra) : 1) Does this stuff deteriorate badly in sunlight It is better than a lot of materials for UV resistance, but not UV-proof. : 2) Is it fuel proof (I assume so, its polyethylene) Dunno, never tried, but I’d tend to assume so, for the same reason as you. : 3) How do you make ends? "Traditional" steel C/L wire is terminated :    using copper or aluminum crimping sleeves. What about those :    "fisherman’s knots" that are used for monofilament? The ones where :    the line wraps around itself several times. One could substitute the :    line clip for the fishing hook. Would crimping sleeves work? What :    are these "sleeves" that kite fliers use? Sleeves are short lengths of braided dacron line; these are hollow braids. You slip a length of it over the Spectra (long enough to cover entire loop and knotted area) and then make the loop with a double- overhand knot, being careful to keep the two parts parallel through the knot. Some people recommend two d-oh knots a short distance apart to prevent the Spectra slipping through the knot. : I wonder if the .013" stuff would be OK for moderately large models. : No, I don’t plan to try this stuff in Combat – it’d be interesting to : use it as a streamer leader though – cut off the other guy’s wing : ^_^;; In *any* contact, the Spectra loses; it has a *very* low melting point and any friction cuts it instantly. For cutting wings off <grin, use Kevlar. In fact, for your use I would recommend it over Spectra, although it is not as UV-resistant; just don’t leave the lines out in the sun when you’re not using them and they should last for years. — …I studied with diligence Neptune’s laws, and these laws I tried to obey… <Joshua Slocum

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How is this done? A needle? Where do you get the sleeving? "Into-the-Wind"? (I visited their showroom in Denver once, by the way..)

Take a two foot length of thin wire (fishing leader or even your metal C/L line and bend it back on itself. Thread this wire into the sleeving material and then loop the spectra between the two sides of the wire and pull it back. Something I’d forgotten to ask about is abrasion resistance and how easily it slides over itself. The stunt kite people ought to be able to answer this one.

It is very slippery and does slide over itself. In this respect it would probably work great for C/L. Unfortunately, abrasion resistance is pretty low. Overall, Spectra is fragile stuff. Be careful about snagging it on objects or on the ground. If you do use it, check it periodically for nicks and abrasion points. The Kevlar seems a little thick (at least the stuff on sale at Wal-Mart) for 1/2-As, but we do plan to try it out. Its a lot cheaper than the Spectra, by the way.

For a given breaking strength, Kevlar and Spectra are about the same size in cross section. Stretching characteristics are also about the same. Kevlar is a lot tougher though, and you don’t have to worry so much about abrasion and contact with other lines. — Marty Sasaki            Harvard University           Sasaki Kite Fabrications 617-496-4320            10 Ware Street               Jamaica Plain, MA 02130                         Cambridge, MA 02138-4002     phone/fax: 617-522-8546

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