Question:

We would like to go back to Cozumel for scuba next summer but this time go in our own plane.  With all the red tape that is expected, I guess I should start now.  I understand that an experimental has to get Mexican gov’t approval, but am not sure how to go about that. Also, to go from north Alabama to Cozumel, as much as I dislike overwater flying, is it more risky to take the long way around, via the entire country of Mexico’s land mass?  What do you guys recommend? Thanks, AI Nut

Response:

I have flown down to Honduras twice from Texas.  Flying down the gulf coast of Mexico is easy with excellent airports and very pleasant airport personnel.  Enter at Brownsville and land as needed at Tampico, Veracruz, Villahermosa, Carmen. Cross the base of the Isthmus from Carmen to Chetumal and fly north to Cozumel.  Get the latest info packet from AOPA. The reason to cross the isthmus from Carmen to Chetumal is to follow the road rather than cross uninhabited, trackless jungle. — Richard TEXAS is not just a place, TEXAS  is a state of mind.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We would like to go back to Cozumel for scuba next summer but this time go in our own plane.  With all the red tape that is expected, I guess I should start now.  I understand that an experimental has to get Mexican gov’t approval, but am not sure how to go about that. Also, to go from north Alabama to Cozumel, as much as I dislike overwater flying, is it more risky to take the long way around, via the entire country of Mexico’s land mass?  What do you guys recommend? Thanks, AI Nut

Response:

Take a look at bajabushpilots.com  Geared more to California pilots flying down to Baja, but the answer re experimentals will be known. Re crossing over the Gulf from Alabama, you can manage the risk by having a raft and a 406 epirb and a person back home who will report you missing if you do not call them a certain time after departure.  Do you fly at night, over mountains, or in low IFR in a single?  These are similar, maybe even greater, risks.  Your chances are really bad in these situations if the engine quits.  At least with a ditching you are OK if someone will come get you and you can stay alive until then.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We would like to go back to Cozumel for scuba next summer but this time go in our own plane.  With all the red tape that is expected, I guess I should start now.  I understand that an experimental has to get Mexican gov’t approval, but am not sure how to go about that. Also, to go from north Alabama to Cozumel, as much as I dislike overwater flying, is it more risky to take the long way around, via the entire country of Mexico’s land mass?  What do you guys recommend? Thanks, AI Nut

Response:

Cash only, preferrably Mexican Pesos.  Strainer cloth and a Mexican mecahnic is required for any repairs.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We would like to go back to Cozumel for scuba next summer but this time go in our own plane.  With all the red tape that is expected, I guess I should start now.  I understand that an experimental has to get Mexican gov’t approval, but am not sure how to go about that. Also, to go from north Alabama to Cozumel, as much as I dislike overwater flying, is it more risky to take the long way around, via the entire country of Mexico’s land mass?  What do you guys recommend? Thanks, AI Nut

Response:

You can’t do repairs on your own aircraft????  Thats scary!  Might want to take some vasoline too!  Whats a strainer cloth? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cash only, preferrably Mexican Pesos.  Strainer cloth and a Mexican mecahnic is required for any repairs. We would like to go back to Cozumel for scuba next summer but this time go in our own plane.  With all the red tape that is expected, I guess I should start now.  I understand that an experimental has to get Mexican gov’t approval, but am not sure how to go about that. Also, to go from north Alabama to Cozumel, as much as I dislike overwater flying, is it more risky to take the long way around, via the entire country of Mexico’s land mass?  What do you guys recommend? Thanks, AI Nut

Response:

You can do the repairs, but a mexican mechanic has to supervise the repair. Some people use a chamios to strain the fuel.  Probably not necessary at major airports, but if you are burning car gas or at a remote airport it is a cheap precaution.

You can’t do repairs on your own aircraft????  Thats scary!  Might want to take some vasoline too!  Whats a strainer cloth?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cash only, preferrably Mexican Pesos.  Strainer cloth and a Mexican mecahnic is required for any repairs. We would like to go back to Cozumel for scuba next summer but this time go in our own plane.  With all the red tape that is expected, I guess I should start now.  I understand that an experimental has to get Mexican gov’t approval, but am not sure how to go about that. Also, to go from north Alabama to Cozumel, as much as I dislike overwater flying, is it more risky to take the long way around, via the entire country of Mexico’s land mass?  What do you guys recommend? Thanks, AI Nut

Response:

Take a look at bajabushpilots.com  Geared more to California pilots flying down to Baja, but the answer re experimentals will be known. Re crossing over the Gulf from Alabama, you can manage the risk by having a raft and a 406 epirb and a person back home who will report you missing if you do not call them a certain time after departure.  Do you fly at night, over mountains, or in low IFR in a single?  These are similar, maybe even greater, risks.  Your chances are really bad in these situations if the engine quits.  At least with a ditching you are OK if someone will come get you and you can stay alive until then.

Yeah, and not usually much problem with hypothermia in the Gulf Cheers, John PPASEL Temple, Texas

Response:

Before I started flying 10 years ago (and have made two trips through Mexico by plane) I lived aboard yachts for 23 years.  This included a great many crossings of the Gulf of Mexico in sail yachts, power yachts and commercial fishing vessels and oilfield service vessels..  Having been over 100,000 miles on the ocean in boats, I personally think that long passages over water in single engine planes are totally nuts.  It is often very rough down there and in those conditions, a ditching would not likely go very well.  It is also fairly unlikely that you will be found before it is too late.  What looks like calm water and short distances from a plane looks very very different from the surface.  I personally think that the risk is totally unacceptable in a single and would not do it in a twin, if the plane could not complete the trip from the 1/2 way point on one engine. On the other hand the trip around the edge with stops in nice Mexican cities and airports is a lot of fun.  The fuel is very very clean and the service is polite and excellent. No sweat. — Richard TEXAS is not just a place, TEXAS  is a state of mind.

Take a look at bajabushpilots.com  Geared more to

California pilots flying down to Baja, but the answer re experimentals will be known. Re crossing over the Gulf from Alabama, you can manage the risk by having a raft and a 406 epirb and a person back home who will

report you missing if – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you do not call them a certain time after departure.  Do you fly at night, over mountains, or in low IFR in a single?  These are similar, maybe even greater, risks.  Your chances are really bad in these situations if the engine quits.  At least with a ditching you are OK if someone will come get you and you can stay alive until then. Yeah, and not usually much problem with hypothermia in the Gulf Cheers, John PPASEL Temple, Texas

Response:

100,000 miles on the ocean in boats, I personally think that long passages over water in single engine planes are totally nuts.  It is often very rough down there and in those conditions, a ditching would not likely go very well.  It is also fairly unlikely that you will be found before it is too late

You may know sailing, but you don’t know ditching. Ditching is not risk-free but can be accomplished without harm more often than not. Down home, many of us have ditched. Only one lost his life. He was drowned by a panicked passenger. D.

Response:

How high were the seas when you ditched.  How far from shore?  How long till rescue.  From Alabama to Yucatan is 600 or 700 NM. I have a friend who has ditched twice, right next to shore. The middle of the Gulf is a whole nother animal.  Of course, If you trust your machine that much, have at it. I have noticed something interesting.  I know quite a few instructors and pilots who love night flying and some who do some pretty serious IFR in singles.  Funny, that all of the mechanics that I know well who are also very experienced pilots, avoid night flight and heavy IFR in singles.  I am a pretty competent mechanic, but not an A&P and there is no way that I am flying under those conditions.  Of course two partial power losses in 1200 hours might have something to do with that. The sea is big and your life raft is ridiculously small.  If you ditch successfully, and if you get out and get in the raft, and if you still have the epirb (406 or not) and if you are detected, you might be found and they might even be able to rescue you.  That is a hell of a lot of ifs, for an unnecessary risk. — Richard TEXAS is not just a place, TEXAS  is a state of mind. message .net… 100,000 miles on the ocean in boats, I personally think that long passages over water in single engine planes are totally nuts.  It is often very rough down there and in those conditions, a ditching would not likely go very well. It is also fairly unlikely that you will be found before it is too late You may know sailing, but you don’t know ditching.

Ditching is not risk-free – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but can be accomplished without harm more often than not. Down home, many of us have ditched. Only one lost his life. He was drowned by a panicked passenger. D.

Response:

Question:

I’ve heard that big nocturnal browns hit mouse patterns like crazy. I’d love to try that sometime. From the waters I’ve fished, the Beaverhead looks like a good bet for that action. How do you fish a mouse? I suppose you give it a LOT of action. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

I have had a lot of success with big surface lures at night. The target was invariably sea-trout, ( anadromous browns), but a lot of native big browns get caught like this. These fish are hardly ever caught otherwise, and many do not even know of their existence. One excellent pattern is a large black muddler minnow, tied on a tube.  You don

Question:

under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al…….

I will volunteer to cover the North Texas area. I can count on about a dozen members of The Roadkill Roundtable to help with the project. Big Dale

Response:

I would be more than will to test rod breaking strength, warranty compliance and retrieval from forgotten locations, aspects often overlooked about – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al……. I will volunteer to cover the North Texas area. I can count on about a dozen members of The Roadkill Roundtable to help with the project. Big Dale

Response:

Nahh, man, you’re missing the obvious gold mine. According to Matt, all we need to do is certify each other as guides and we’ll get 60% off everything! Heck, you guided me and others on the RF. Come on down and I’ll guide you in the Gila. The NC boys are about to guide a whole clave! We’ll all join the Sage Tackle Team. Jon "I was CPR-certified 15 years ago if that counts" Cook.

    always good to hear from a colleague!  how’s business, fellow guide?     for the firm ol 60% himself, wayno

Response:

I would be more than happy to write articles "from the beginner’s perspective", i.e., chronicling the abuses beginning anglers put on equipment, through humorous anecdotes.  I would also apply to be one of the Washington (the one with Steelheads, not softheads, I’ve lived there too) corespondents but there may be some competition, I hear there may be one or two other anglers in the state :0) Hatch – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy All. If any of you are in the flyfishing tackle manufacturing or retail business, I just wanted to let you all know that I provide excellent and comprehensive field testing and critical review of any/all products. Simply mail me the equipment you need tested and I promise I will. Of course, the equipment can not be returned. Always glad to help out where I can. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

<<Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer

T-Bone, I think you may be on to something there. We need to start a new business, (costing us nothing of course). At least 10 ROFFIANS from each state should be field testing equipment, including the Bastard and the Grand Am. This would give a companies a wide variety of hands on usage under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al……. Man, you guys are gonna get in trouble.  I can hear the black helocopters hovering and the Usenet Gestapos waiting to getcha!  

Response:

Howdy All. If any of you are in the flyfishing tackle manufacturing or retail business, I just wanted to let you all know that I provide excellent and comprehensive field testing and critical review of any/all products. Simply mail me the equipment you need tested and I promise I will. Of course, the equipment can not be returned. Always glad to help out where I can. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Howdy All. If any of you are in the flyfishing tackle manufacturing or retail business, I just wanted to let you all know that I provide excellent and comprehensive field testing and critical review of any/all products. Simply mail me the equipment you need tested and I promise I will. Of course, the equipment can not be returned. Always glad to help out where I can. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer

T-Bone, I think you may be on to something there. We need to start a new business, (costing us nothing of course). At least 10 ROFFIANS from each state should be field testing equipment, including the Bastard and the Grand Am. This would give a companies a wide variety of hands on usage under different conditions and different geographical locations, with us reporting back every week/month. (George, you have 2 volunteers right now). Waddaya think? Big Al…….

Response:

Question:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I love Mad River boats BUT one might get a little argument about the Explorer being the best all rounder from Swift Kipawa fans. who would suggest that the Kipawa is more stable more speedy (and faster too) more capacious more maneuverable more white water capable more seaworthy and more perttier. — Lyle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file. — riverman I think, therefore I thwim. Carpe ropum. "There is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer. Period."

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. Me too. I don’t know how far around the block this conversation has gone, but for my way over 2-cents worth of experience goes, there is NO better all around boat (considering performance, versatility, cost, looks, maintenance, etc) than the 16 foot MR Explorer.  Period.  Anyone buying a canoe should plan an spending a little more for this boat as a starter, then expect to never need to buy another all-around canoe again. See my sig file.

If you want one boat that will do everything, I agree (though I haven’t tried the Swift).  If you want a boat for primarily or exclusively flatwater, then there are better choices out there in composite/fiberglass/kevlar — Andrew

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer.

It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. It’s been a while since I purchased my first boat, and I don’t know much about what’s out there, but my general comment would be buy the best boat you can afford.  Don’t spare the horses.  Talk to people in a local canoe and kayak club, and get their recommendations on brands. Tell them what you want to do with the boat–that’s the important part.

I’ve been a kayaker for a while now, but just recently my new girlfriend wanted a canoe for us.  Have been looking for a used Royalite, or Royalex canoe for a couple months — just today we found it! I consulted with other canoe-types in the club, and this Mohawk Nova 16 (or other similar brands/models) seemed to do it all.  It is Royalex.  This is the exact one we got today, used for $500 with four float bags.  Boats like this are sort of "Do It All" dealies. Each time some new person asks "Which Canoe should i get?" i always say ‘Buy a used, decent brand’ and this is the first time i’ve had to try it out. We like this boat!

Response:

I recommend a 16 ft Mad River Explorer. I own both an Old Town Discovery and the Explorer, and find the Old Town is too heavy to carry any distance (not to mention lift). The Explorer is lighter, handles better, and yes, it’s easier on the eyes. The Discovery might plow through rocks better, but takes on water in the slightest chops. I used to own a Coleman, I’m glad it died an ugly rocky death long ago. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/5189/index.htm Reach out and touch a rock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while

With a dang, clanging Coleman, the lake’s not going to stay quiet for long. It’s practically a percussion instrument Eddy "Colemans are for keeping beer cool" Rapid.

Response:

It sounds like you’ve been doing your research.  I agree with all your points. About three years ago, I faced the same question.  Like you, I wanted the best for the least.  I purchased a OT Disco158.  I like it fine but if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would save a little more money and by the lighter boat with a more efficient hull.  I use it mostly for day paddling with my wife or fishing with my children.  I’ve run a class III in it but don’t suggest it.  I’ve paddled it 32 miles through the Okeefenokee swamp and camped out of it.  I am not interested in getting rid of it but, would not buy another. I understand the Disco169 has a more efficient hull but, it weighs in at a hefty 85lbs. You will find that weight makes more of a difference than you think.  I can car-top my 80lb canoe by myself but "it ain’t pretty."  The yolk makes it easier to carry but it still weighs 80lbs.  A lighter canoe will respond better to corrections/steering and may even be a little faster. If you can stand to wait, I’d recommend it.  You’ll just end up wanting to buy different one in a few years.  I would have by now but I am discovering both sea and whitewater kayaks! Oh yeah, one other thing.  If you really think you’re going to enjoy the sport, don’t give the Coleman too much thought.  You really DO get what you pay for in a canoe. Eric da Grate – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

Response:

Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death…    

                        ~* s n i p *~ If you don’t mind the $65 or so shipping charge, try calling one of the companies someone mentioned else mentioned earlier: Rutabaga in Madison, Wisconsin sells LOTS of boats.  They always have new Old Town blems on hand at a greatly reduced rate.  Not a bad deal for a first boat.   They will be getting lots of used boats in another month after their annual "Canoecopia" show; many people will be trading in their boats for something new. Give them a call at 800-472-3353 (800-I-PADDLE) or check out their website:  www.paddlers.com Tell Darren I sent ya. Good luck. — To reply by email, remove mapson. from the edress Check out the links page at this site: www.paddlers.com

Response:

Thank you all for the replies & advice. I realize that researching a purchase like this, then even trying out different boats would be the best of all worlds, but hearing from folks that have been there is also a definite help. Thanks again!

Response:

If the Coleman is the only way you are going to get on the water, do it!  If you want a boat, get one of the others.  Go demo some boats. The newsgroups cannot tell you how you will feel in a boat.  you need to try them.  Borrow a Coleman and then you can feel the pain in your lower back as you haul it to the water.  Then you will be informed. Try a lake boat with a keel in a moving river and learn why a keel is not too swell in moving water.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

patrickatcyberhighwaydotnet

Response:

Hello!

Well hello to you! I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe.

Actually, they aren’t.  Not compared to Old Town, Mad RIver, Mohawk, etc.  I wouldn’t want to hit too many rocks with a coleman.  Aluminum canoes are extremely durable, but, and this is a BIG BUTT, it’s hard to keep the suckers quiet.  Each and every time you place your paddle in the boat, you and every fish within 300 feet will hear the ‘thud’. I hear the Boy Scouts using them all the time at Upper Priest lake in Idaho…very noisy. already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

You live around here in Spokane?  You join the Spokane Canoe and Kayak Club yet?  I’m the newsletter editor.  We’re having our largest meeting/auction/potluck of the year come February 26th — next friday. If you wanna see a LOT of activity, come see it.  Email me if you want more info.

Response:

For the money you’re looking to spend, I would suggest you test paddle an OT Penobscot 17.  I’ve used mine quite a bit on lakes in minneapolis and in the BWCA.  It’s got moderate initial stability, fantastic secondary stability.  It has no rocker so it tracks like a arrow, but turns like a pig.  Leaning into a turn can give you a good bit of effective rocker.  Its a great tripping boat.

Response:

Tom, I was in your position a few years ago, let me tell you what I bought. I found that the best tradeoff for weight, durability, and cost, for lake and occasional class I/II rivers is fiberglass.  Not the cheap chopper gun variety, but a canoe made up of decent sheet materials.  I chose a Wenonah, largely because I have a great local dealer who sells them (as well as Mad River). Fiberglass advantages are hull stiffness without bulk which = paddling efficiency, no flex while paddling, easily repairable if it does become damaged, etc.  Fiberglass slips across rocks in a low water condition much better than aluminum – avoid that material at all costs if you plan on running low water.  About the only disadvantage is that the gel coat looks beautiful when new, and quickly gets scraped up pretty bad – but that means you’re actually USING the boat, doesn’t it? Your ideal boat in a plastic would be royalex – much lighter than the Old Town crosslink.  It’s well worth the upgrade cost.  I see tons of the Discovery boats for sale – and no royalex boats for sale!! You don’t find many (good) canoes for sale, because most people have no reason to sell them! They’re not that expensive, and last a lifetime with reasonable care. Good luck! Lou – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe. I plan to use the canoe for hitting some lakes in my region with my sons….do some fly fishing, canoe camp occasionally, that type of thing. If the canoe I end up getting is worthy, the canoe might see some river use (probably nothing worse than Class II, possibly a little Class III, but maybe not), & might also make it to such places as Bowron Lakes & Myrtle Lake in B.C. for more extended canoe camping & paddling (with more portages, a person should start looking at weight….now the cost of the lighter canoes jumps up & introduces itself). I’ve looked at Old Town, Wenonah, Mad River, etc. A person could spend $1000 – $1400 for one of their lighter canoes, or could pay ~$700 for an Old Town Discovery that would suit the bill, but is somewhat heavier. Might also look at a Marathon, Grumman, Osagian, or Alumaweld aluminum canoe as well in that price range. Money being an object here, the price of a Coleman canoe (go ahead, let me have it!) locally is $269 – $319 looks pretty attractive. I know the Coleman would be a rugged, durable canoe. Trying to decide if it’s wiser to get a lighter, more quality designed canoe that would be more versatile in the long term, even if I have to charge !/2 of it or more, or pay cash for something like a Coleman since I’m fairly new to the sport, & would welcome advice from those who have already made such decisions. Would also welcome info about used canoes for sale where freight to eastern Washington wouldn’t be a deterrant. Thanks!

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Hello! I realize that this has probably been beaten to death until some are sick of it, but being new to this group, thought I’d seek some advice anyway. Am going to buy a canoe this spring, & am in a quandry about the wisest choice, while still keeping to a reasonable price. Having seen very few used canoes for sale in my area, so looks like it might be a new canoe.

Yes, it has been done a lot, infact I bet a search on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) would answer most if not all your questions. The coleman is a good boat for short paddles around a quiet lake once in a while, or for giving to a scout troop to learn in (cheap and nigh on industructible).  I have an old town discovery 164 which is about the same as the penobscott, just weighs more… a lot more on a long portage. Personally I’d look around for a used good boat, and stay away from the colemans. Hope this helps Rich Johnson Enfield Nova Scotia Canada

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For flatwater, class I and Class II a good quality fiberglass (cloth, not spray in chopper gun) canoe would be the best bet.  I’d look for a used one, some places (like Rutabaga in Madison, WI and Piragis in ELY, MN) sell a number of used boats like that.  A new We-No-Nah in Tufweave (fiberglass like) can be had for $8-900.  Western Canoeing has similar boats.  Used Kevlar could be in the same range, used fiberglass less. These would work for Class I, not good for Class III, Class II depends on skill level.  For mostly whitewater, Royalex is a better choice, but maybe you can borrow a canoe for those infrequent forays?  It will be heavier and harder to paddle.  Coleman’s are a poor design, Discovery’s are (in the 16′ 9" and 17′ 4" versions) an okay design, but overy heavy and don’t have the long term durability of Royalex. Aluminum is a fine material for flatwater, as good or better than plastic, but can be dangerous in whitewater and a pain in shallow rivers as it tends to stick to rocks, so it’s easy to get stuck and broach. I’d rather (actually I do) have a 17′ Grumman than a Coleman or Discovery. I’d look for a quality fiberglass or used Kevlar boat from We-No-Nah, Mad River, Western, Sawyer. — Andrew Gooding

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Question:

Howdy FFers, I was planning on a 3 day float trip with an outfitter in Oregon in September with some friends.  Has anyone been on one of these trips in September?  Which river could give the best experience for some "inexperienced"  Flyfishers…

snip John I would opt for floating the Deschutes from Mack’s Canyon to the mouth.  Should be excellent steelhead fishing at that time of the year.  I highly reccommend the crew at the Fly Fishing Shop at Welches, Or.  Excellent guides and great company.  They only run three guides and two of them are the owners.   Try www.teleport.com/~flyfish/ for a description of their trips or call them at 503-622-4607.  I think they also have a 1-800 number.  800-266-3971 but have never used it so can’t swear it’s still a valid number.   No finicial relationship just a satisfied customer. Jim Jones For e-mail reply replace spam with sns Jim Jones For e-mail reply replace spam with sns

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Howdy FFers, I was planning on a 3 day float trip with an outfitter in Oregon in September with some friends.  Has anyone been on one of these trips in September?  Which river could give the best experience for some "inexperienced"  Flyfishers… Best wilderness?  Best outfit?  We could do trout, steelhead, or smallmouth for fun.   Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for your help, -John —        My Policy is to ALWAYS Blame the Computer

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot. JB: thanks for the new (to me ) idea… I had just posted my favorite way (fast  nail knot of a piece of mono, then blood knots) when I read this.  It looks  more like an ‘at home’ method, vs. on stream, I think, but has clear  advantages for ease of going through the guides.  I’m gonna do it on my next  connection. thanks, Alan Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

Has anyone tried this method: A guy I know claims to do the same (melt w/acetone) and then pushes the outer part back. He then loops the inner part; ties it off with a nail knot, etc. Here is the part I’ve had no luck with: he then claims to push the outer part back over the knot and therefore this should make a pretty neat sleeve. He then coats it with Aquaseal. I can’t seem to push it over the knot!!!

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I’m new to fly fishing. I’ve read the instructions on connecting the leader to the fly line using a nail knot or a Duncan loop(same as uni-knot right?). I had a knotless tapered leader with a 3X tippet. Connecting the stiff butt to the line was harder than I thought. I was able to do it but ended up with a kink in the connection. Is this okay? I’m still learning to cast so I’m not sure if it affects proper casting. I finally just connected 30lb mono, which was easier to work with, to the fly line and spliced the mono to the leader butt with 2 surgeon’s loops. Is this better than a kinked connection. TIA for any info.

Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot. JB

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Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot.

JB: thanks for the new (to me ) idea… I had just posted my favorite way (fast  nail knot of a piece of mono, then blood knots) when I read this.  It looks  more like an ‘at home’ method, vs. on stream, I think, but has clear  advantages for ease of going through the guides.  I’m gonna do it on my next  connection. thanks, Alan Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

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I’ve been reading this thread since it started, trying to work up the courage to make an embarassing confession. After tying nail knots and loops for many years I’ve reverted to my origional method of tying a simple overhand knot in the end of my line,cinching it down tight, passing the end of the flyline through the loop in my leader and tying another overhand knot.

Jim; The nail-knot was one of the more enigmatic facets of flyfishing for several years: trout are midging?: no problem, hiting emergers and not duns?, not problem, nail-knot?: problem! Lefty showed me a simpler way to tie it without any kind of fancy tubes,and all the nail did was to help add support and to allow the line something *stiff* to wrap around. Borger, though, has, by far, the easiest method to tie nail-knots.  Try this with a rope kit first, though.  All he does is make an over-hand knot with loose wraps, and then twists the line as he tightens it.  The line spirals around itself and makes those great, perfect coils of a nail knot.  Also, he keeps the loops somewhat separated to allow fly line to pinch or squeeze-up through the loops and make a more integral connection. I know probably none of this has helped solve your problems, but maybe it gets you on the right track. Jason Beary.

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Jason, I was hoping someone would come upon Lefty’s method of tying a nail knot….  aka "a fast nail knot’  see also his two books on knots..  I use a large paper  clip, kept in my leader wallet for this purpose.   and have more than once  helped a friend or other on stream in the middle of the water tie a nail knot  onto a fly line.   I prefer to use a piece of heavy mono, the blood knot the  leader to this…. but either will work.   And with heavy fish the nail knot  slides in and out of the tip top and guides without hang ups… at home to  enhance this feature add a bit of nail polish or head cement to round the  edges…. The use of "orvis" loops on the end is ok,  just not as completely satisfactory  as the nail knot system IMHO. There clearly are more than one solution to this… but if folks ever learned  the fast nail knot system, they might not want to do anything else. cheers, Alan Alan E. Hoover Anglers’ Rest Powhatan, Va        *the trout teach many, lessons*

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m new to fly fishing. I’ve read the instructions on connecting the leader to the fly line using a nail knot or a Duncan loop(same as uni-knot right?). I had a knotless tapered leader with a 3X tippet. Connecting the stiff butt to the line was harder than I thought. I was able to do it but ended up with a kink in the connection. Is this okay? I’m still learning to cast so I’m not sure if it affects proper casting. I finally just connected 30lb mono, which was easier to work with, to the fly line and spliced the mono to the leader butt with 2 surgeon’s loops. Is this better than a kinked connection. TIA for any info. Just melt the last inch or so of the coating of your line with nail polish remover; open the core of the line with a needle; poke the butt end of your leader into the core; and apply some Crazy Glue.  It will never let go.  The only leader knot you need to know is a blood knot. JB

You got that right JB, my Krazy Glue connection has held up now for 3 years on my 6 wt, tussled with some feisty smallmouth and looks as good as ever. I will add to the blood knot, the double surgeon’s loop knot  ’cause I can’t tie a blood knot in the smaller diameter tippets. Frank Church Hi Frank.  I didn’t know how that message would go over with the LL Bean crowd that seems to populate the group.  But, I’ve fished with the Krazy Glue method since my buddy in Florida told me about it three years ago.  He fishes sea trout and tarpon.  I’ve caught several 15 – 25 lb Atlantic salmon with it.   I always "put the wood" to fish, and the glue has never let go. JB

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Quoting what I said …  As you do it over the years, other ideas will make more sense and you will switch, but in general it makes fair sense to trust your own judgment as to whether something is reasonable or not…. Jim Robinson wrote as follows: I’ve been reading this thread since it started, trying to work up the courage to make an embarassing confession. After tying nail knots and loops for many years I’ve reverted to my origional method of tying a simple overhand knot in the end of my line,cinching it down tight, passing the end of the flyline through the loop in my leader and tying another overhand knot. I guess I don’t have to tell you it’s not elegant but it’s held a couple of huge carp, a few nice bass and skads of decent pan fish without a failure….

Jim:         Nice to see that one’s words seem to have a certain validity. I am a devotee of the "using a slip-on loop out of braided stuff" on the end of my flyline, but what you do rings a bell because I got to securing the loop with a bit of flexible goopish cement. Well, one time it was really thick on there and I noticed my casts seemed to go out lots nicer. Figured it was the extra weight right there at the end

Question:

This request presents a pretty weak thread to this group but I regard you as technicians, hence the question. I’ve been away from fishing for a few years now and have lost track of who mail orders rod building components. Please note that I’m interested in most everything except fly fishing components (including salt water spinning, conventional casting and class trolling to 130+). Any advice is appreciated … AW

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Quoting "WildernessWerkes!"<wwerkes from a message in rec.outdoors.fishing.f    <This request presents a pretty weak thread to this group but I regard    <you as technicians, hence the question. I’ve been away from fishing for    <a few years now and have lost track of who mail orders rod building    <components. Please note that I’m interested in most everything except    <fly fishing components (including salt water spinning, conventional    <casting and class trolling to 130+). Any advice is appreciated … AW I order quite a bit os stuff from Angler’s Workshop.  They have always provided excellant service.           Angler’s Workshop           1350 Atlantic           Woodland, WA. 98674           360-225-9445 Jim Carlisle

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This request presents a pretty weak thread to this group but I regard you as technicians, hence the question. I’ve been away from fishing for a few years now and have lost track of who mail orders rod building components. Please note that I’m interested in most everything except fly fishing components (including salt water spinning, conventional casting and class trolling to 130+). Any advice is appreciated … AW

Just starting to make rods myself. I recently purchased "Crafting a Graphite Fly Rod" by Al Garcia of Frank Amato publications. Al has a section on sources for equipment and materials. B.

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I can reccommend Custom Tackle in Shelbyville, Tenn. Bob McKamey is the owner. Telephone 615-684-6164. I have dealt with this Co. for years. Good luck. Jack

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This request presents a pretty weak thread to this group but I regard you as technicians, hence the question. I’ve been away from fishing for a few years now and have lost track of who mail orders rod building components. Please note that I’m interested in most everything except fly fishing components (including salt water spinning, conventional casting and class trolling to 130+). Any advice is appreciated … AW Just starting to make rods myself. I recently purchased "Crafting a Graphite Fly Rod" by Al Garcia of Frank Amato publications. Al has a section on sources for equipment and materials. B.

I don’t think he’d buy a book on fly fishing gear when he said he wasn’t interested. Angler’s Workshop and Dale Clemems are two great rod building supply companies. Angler’s – (360) 225-9445 Clemens – (610) 395-5119 Don B.

Response:

This request presents a pretty weak thread to this group but I regard you as technicians, hence the question. I’ve been away from fishing for a few years now and have lost track of who mail orders rod building components. Please note that I’m interested in most everything except fly fishing components (including salt water spinning, conventional casting and class trolling to 130+). Any advice is appreciated … AW

Call these: Dale Clemmens Custom Tackle (615)395-5119 Custom Tackle Supply (615)684-6164 Anglers Workshop (360)225-9445

Response:

This request presents a pretty weak thread to this group but I regard you as technicians, hence the question. I’ve been away from fishing for a few years now and have lost track of who mail orders rod building components. Please note that I’m interested in most everything except fly fishing components (including salt water spinning, conventional casting and class trolling to 130+). Any advice is appreciated … AW Just starting to make rods myself. I recently purchased "Crafting a Graphite Fly Rod" by Al Garcia of Frank Amato publications. Al has a section on sources for equipment and materials. B.

There are tons of suppliers, Cabella’s has a good catalogue for tackle craft. Thomas

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One of the most complete mail order rod component catologs that I have seen is put out by Cabela’s.  They put out a series of specialty catalogs.  The one that you need is called "Tackle Craft".  It has a complete spectrum of rod building supplies.  Call 800-237-4444. Mark

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Question:

Any FF opportunties in Tennessee or shall I leave my fly rod at home? I’m going to be in Nashville on business. -steve

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Stop by Cumberland Transit Flyfishing on West End Just west of Vanderbilt U. Jim, Chris, Eric or I will try and help. We’ve had lots of rain however and the tailwaters, which are closest are running very high. Jack

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Any FF opportunties in Tennessee or shall I leave my fly rod at home? I’m going to be in Nashville on business. -steve

The Caney Fork is about 45 minutes away, but the generation schedules have been tough lately.  Both the Duck and the Elk Rivers are 1.5-2 hours away, and they generate less frequently than the Caney Fork. The CF and the Elk are good trout waters; you’ll occasionally see Browns in the range of 2-6 pounds.  There are also some trout streams west of Nashville that are not tailwaters, but I can’t give you much info on them.  I haven’t fished any of them yet. Jerry Cobb Nashville, TN

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Question:

Is it me, or is the FlyFishing Database and FAQ home page totally broken.  Everytime I follow a link it gives me a page with a return link and no content. The location I’m accessing is: http://www.geo.mtu.edu/~jsuchosk/fish/ff-faq/masterIndex.html kat.

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Is it me, or is the FlyFishing Database and FAQ home page totally broken.  Everytime I follow a link it gives me a page with a return link and no content. The location I’m accessing is: http://www.geo.mtu.edu/~jsuchosk/fish/ff-faq/masterIndex.html kat.

It’s not you.  Either it’s broken, or it’s us.  I got the same response you did. Jim Browder Kalispell, MT

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Question:

I will be in Italy for 3 weeks. Venice, Rome, Florence. Any thoughts?

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There was an article in the Travel section of the New York Times just 2 or 3 weeks ago about fly fihsing (and eating) your way through Italy.  It was very informative about working your way through the postal system to get local licenses.  I’d look there.

-0400 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I will be in Italy for 3 weeks. Venice, Rome, Florence. Any thoughts?

Response:

I have spent a fair amount of time in Italy, and despite fact I’m a lifetime flyfishing addict, I wouldn’t take time to flyfish.  I have seen a lot of tempting streams and rivers, but I’m not sure the fishing would be good (trout rarely shows up on the menu).  Pick up a good book on wine country and really enjoy Italy!!!! Tight Lines IBFISHN

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Don’t drink the Water.

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