Question:

The big question is, Why use mono on pike?

        For one thing, a level mono leader is about as simple as you can get. Also, mono is somewhat less visible than wire, which may be advantageous under *some* conditions (though pike, as a rule, aren’t exactly leader shy). Some proponents of mono say that it allows the fly better action in the water than wire.  Mono also doesn’t kink like wire can.  Big pike can thrash and roll enough to render wire a kinked, weakened mess in short order.         On the other hand, wire has its advantages.  100% bite-proof, and cuts through weeds better than mono.  Short wire shockers can aleviate the kinking issue to a degree.         Each leader system has its merits, and the fishing situation is going to dictate which system is better at that time.  I’ve got nothing against wire, and am *not* wed to level hard mono leaders either.  I’ll rig up with whichever type of leader system I feel I need for the water, the size of fish expected, etc. P.S.  I can see that if all your fish are 12-20 inches long, 20# mono is probably a 90% reliable connection.  Why settle for 90% when 100% is easy?  Why just expect to loose that occasional big fish?

        Reynolds and Berryman in "Pike on the Fly" state that 25# *hard* mono level leaders served them in Canada to the tune of 400+ pike caught and released with ~4 bite-offs.  That would imply an overall failure rate of about 1%, and I rather suspect that out of 400+ Canadian fish there were more than a few bigger than 12-20" "hammer handles".         Yeah, the possibility exists to lose a big fish using a mono leader. Why would one use one then?  Perhaps the same reason one would rig up with a 7x or 8x tippet for trout — they won’t take on a more visible leader.  Are your odds of breaking off in that situation higher?  You bet! Gotta go with what works for the particular situation. Todd

Response:

The big question is, Why use mono on pike?    For one thing, a level mono leader is about as simple as you can get. Also, mono is somewhat less visible than wire, which may be advantageous under *some* conditions (though pike, as a rule, aren’t exactly leader shy). Some proponents of mono say that it allows the fly better action in the water than wire.  Mono also doesn’t kink like wire can.  Big pike can thrash and roll enough to render wire a kinked, weakened mess in short order.

Solid wire doesn’t have any of the shortcomings except possibly visibility.  Do you have any experience with fish refusing a more visible leader and then taking the less visible leader?  I’ve heard of this and seen it with other fish, but not with pike. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    On the other hand, wire has its advantages.  100% bite-proof, and cuts through weeds better than mono.  Short wire shockers can aleviate the kinking issue to a degree.    Each leader system has its merits, and the fishing situation is going to dictate which system is better at that time.  I’ve got nothing against wire, and am *not* wed to level hard mono leaders either.  I’ll rig up with whichever type of leader system I feel I need for the water, the size of fish expected, etc. P.S.  I can see that if all your fish are 12-20 inches long, 20# mono is probably a 90% reliable connection.  Why settle for 90% when 100% is easy?  Why just expect to loose that occasional big fish?    Reynolds and Berryman in "Pike on the Fly" state that 25# *hard* mono level leaders served them in Canada to the tune of 400+ pike caught and released with ~4 bite-offs.  That would imply an overall failure rate of about 1%, and I rather suspect that out of 400+ Canadian fish there were more than a few bigger than 12-20" "hammer handles".

Surely they caught some big ones on the mono.  It was after reading their book that I tried 30# hard mason on Great Slave Lake.  I found the material was OK for 3 to 5 fish before I needed to retie.  I caught a 24 1/2 pounder on that leader, though the leader was only about 5# strength after we released the fish.  I also had a 5# fish bite me off clean on a fresh leader.  After about 4 bite offs on about 40 fish I went back to wire.    Yeah, the possibility exists to lose a big fish using a mono leader. Why would one use one then?  Perhaps the same reason one would rig up with a 7x or 8x tippet for trout — they won’t take on a more visible leader.  Are your odds of breaking off in that situation higher?  You bet! Gotta go with what works for the particular situation.

Again, there’s a lot of experience out there that relates to selective and leader shy trout.  Do you know of any such behavior in pike?  I think the book on selective pike is as short as the one on German humor. Thanks, Chas

Response:

So, how many fish have you landed on a 20-30# mono leader without retying between fish?  How big is the typical pike in the waters you fish?  What sort of flies do you use (hook size, fly length?) I ask because I’ve had no success at all with mono leaders.  I hear lots of people claim that mono is fine, so I’m looking for the difference that makes mono work for others.  I must be missing a trick here somewhere. Thanks Chas

Must agree. I have never had any luck with mono leaders. Just a lot of bite offs. On the few occasions they have worked, it was necessary to replace them after every fish. No big deal, as mono is cheap enough, but a nuisance, and they are still unreliable. I use kevlar leaders. ( Unfortunately I have not been able to obtain any for a while, but I have a good supply). The "Kevsteel" leaders ( which is kevlar either braided with, or over, multi-strand wire) are available here; http://www.anglersupplyhouse.com/moser.html More info here; http://globalflyfisher.com/staff/verhaar/pike/tippets.php http://www.euro-fly.com/French_dossier/68_fils_pour_bas_de_ligne/e68_… materials.htm http://www.euro-fly.com/French_dossier/67_bas_de_ligne/e67_leaders.htm A couple of guys I know are using this; http://www.anglinguk.net/hostV4/Swiftys/Swiftys_Line_36.html And reckon it is good. TL MC

Response:

I believe that you carry Bad Mono Karma around with you, Chas.  I had three bite-offs in one afternoon when I fished with you, and I reluctantly tied on some wire.  That’s about as many bite-offs as I have had in the previous five years. Kevin

Dad Mono Karma?  Seems to me the mono leaders go nuclear for me, maybe it’s MonoNuclearPisces or some such disease? Chas

Response:

…snip… I use kevlar leaders. ( Unfortunately I have not been able to obtain any for a while, but I have a good supply). The "Kevsteel" leaders ( which is kevlar either braided with, or over, multi-strand wire) are available here; http://www.anglersupplyhouse.com/moser.html

These would have the same kinking problems that other multi-strand wire has. More info here; http://globalflyfisher.com/staff/verhaar/pike/tippets.php

A great article.  He says the kevlar leaders kink, I presume he’s talking abput the steel/kevlar, not pure kevlar.  I’m 100% with him about the single strand wire.  I do like the haywire twist better than his loop because the haywire loop won’t collapse under tension. http://www.euro-fly.com/French_dossier/68_fils_pour_bas_de_ligne/e68_… materials.htm

Has kevlar/steel, but no poure kevlar. http://www.euro-fly.com/French_dossier/67_bas_de_ligne/e67_leaders.htm

pretied tapered kevlar/steel leaders, no pure kevlar. A couple of guys I know are using this; http://www.anglinguk.net/hostV4/Swiftys/Swiftys_Line_36.html And reckon it is good.

This is a spectra fiber.  The second fish I had hit on one of these leaders demolished it before he came back down to the water.  That was 6 strands of 20# spectra braided together to make 120# strength.  He sawed through it about two inches above the fly.  I retired the rest of the leaders I’d braided right then. Thanks Mike, Chas

Response:

<SNIP A couple of guys I know are using this; http://www.anglinguk.net/hostV4/Swiftys/Swiftys_Line_36.html And reckon it is good. This is a spectra fiber.  The second fish I had hit on one of these leaders demolished it before he came back down to the water.  That was 6 strands of 20# spectra braided together to make 120# strength.  He sawed through it about two inches above the fly.  I retired the rest of the leaders I’d braided right then.

I have not yet tried it. I still have plenty of the kevlar leaders. I am keeping an eye out for alternatives though, as they will not last forever. As I said, I use the pure Kevlar leaders I was given quite a while ago. They don

Question:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

of course, you don’t live in washington state and have to watch the local s(news)…. this is all we’ve been hearing about and what we’ll be hearing about til the next disaster <G. i’m glad they’re back…. but i’d like to see the media give them a little bit of a break so they can have some real private time with their families and loved ones. chris

Response:

Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military. I think I understand your disgust with the overdramatization in which military people attribute to their jobs….I did a 6 year stint in the Navy myself, and enjoyed it, but I find that too often fellow vets are just too quick to point out the fact that they served. It’s almost like they’re rubbing it in others’ faces. I have followed the plight of the aircrew held in China with some interest. I feel that the government/military is making way too big a deal of this, for publicity’s sake, than should be. All that said…I do respect the simple fact that being hel captive in a foreign communist country, no matter what the accomodations (in this case very plush) and treatment, would be a scary and dangerous situation to be in (history tells us this). For that, sure, let’s have a parade and welcome these folks home (especially if they were able to destroy any sensitive equipment on that plane before it went down).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

Response:

Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam?

Uhh, Mark,  Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames.  Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Ahhh…my apologies for my mistaken left-click, especially to Dave.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? Uhh, Mark,  Dave is a retired Navy Chief, a career military man who is justifiably proud of his service. Ken is the one who wrote the anti military diatribe. You really need to follow these threads a little more carefully before replying, or else get some asbestos skivvies to protect you from the flames.  Just a little friendly advice. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

Dave, not trying to judge your age here, but by any chance were you one of those guys that got out of the draft during vietnam? I only say this because you seem to have such disdain for the military.

Wow, whatever you are smokin is worth every damn nickel you paid! Wolfgang and doubtless dave would love to share it      :)

Response:

… This is a welcome home for a group of Americans …

And much ado about nothing in my book.  … He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.          Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken,     How ’bout teaching English and math to kids inter-battle zone in Bosnia, where there is a cleared path in the minefield to get to the old warehouse to teach?  How ’bout doing this for free?     How ’bout whole National Guard units that volunteer as a group to drop their jobs and run off to Central America to spend their days humpin sacks of flour to help hurricane victims?     How ’bout spending four nights a week and all day Saturday teaching English, math and biology to Korean orphans who are ostracized because they don’t have parents?  The tutors won’t help, the city won’t help, their own teachers won’t help.  Again, done free, for a year, gratis.  Person’s boss didn’t even know about it.     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members. The U.S. military is second only to firefighters in time spent doing volunteer work.  In a lot of towns, those firefighters are military.  You profess to understand the military.  I won’t gainsay that.  Why do you join an organization of computer proffesionals?  Could it be that you identify with those who share your understanding of nibbles and bytes?  We, those former military members, identify with the sacrifices that those currently in the military endure.  The funny thing about military folks is that they often blend in with the scenery.  The are members of ACM, ROFF, but they still identify with their common core of experience in the military.  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.     You, as computer professional, should understand that the U.S. military is not a necessary evil.  It is also not a sacred cow.  It is not that one-dimensional.  However, to trivialize 2.6 million folks to the status of necessary evil is, in and of itself, pretty one dimensional.  It is a group of folks as important as your local fire and police department.  Wherever they go, they try to do some good.  It’s their nature.  They, as a group, will all tell you that they abhor the combat side of their jobs, because, to them, if they have to fight, they’ve failed at peace keeping.     I tell you what, take a group of military folks and ask them to raise their hands if they’ve ever fired a weapon in combat.   Very few hands.  Now ask them if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last 2 months.  Now ask your computer professional friends if they’ve done 10 or more hours of volunteer work in the last two months.  Hey, it takes a village.  Some of us, i.e. the military have lived in that village all our lives, where others are wandering around screaming that some one should build them one.       Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He and many of you can express your collective sighs elsewhere as far as I’m concerned, Frank. And I’m not impressed by alphabet soup after a man’s name. My younger brother was in the Marine Corps for twenty years, I’m not completely unfamiliar with things military. The military is a necessary evil not a sacred cow and I’m far more impressed with the guy who teaches inner city kids to read than I am with the guy flying spy planes off the coast of China. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

…     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members.

And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. …  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend.

include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken,      All’s I’m trying to say is that military members are a group of human beings, like educators, like computer professionals.  That’s not chest thumping.  As you said, there are good and bad in every group.  I don’t trivialize any group of people.  To do so is to trivialize all.  To denigrate the work of a group of folks because they are in the military is very small minded.     Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military. And, oh, by the way, in many countries, the military is a highly respected profession.  Unfortunately, it is mostly in those industrialized nations that have the freedom and wherewithal to be able to afford the time and the money to sit at computers or fly fish.  Wonder if there is a connection there?  Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it.  Now thats chest thumping.     I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.         Frank

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …     These are anecdotal.  They are all true. They are all military members. And two members of the US military raped a 12 year old Japanese schoolgirl. Pretty useless to trade these examples, I’ll concede that there are both really nice folks and some of the scum of the earth serving in the military. …  MSgt Ret is alphabet soup.  However, I only used it since you used ACM. Glass houses my friend. include their email address in their .sig, but if you find it untoward Please remember that this is an international forum and excessive chest thumping by the military regardless of nationality is most unseemly. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

…  I don’t trivialize any group of people.  

To call the military a necessary evil is not to trivialize it, by definition necessary is not trivial.     Oh, by the way, the U.S. is not the only country that has a military.

Exactly the point, Frank. To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism. … Yes, this is an international forum, maybe over the years, you will expand your narrow views to match it.  Now thats chest thumping.     I may not change your mind, but I can try to change your perspective.

Thump away, my friend, but I think my perspective is just fine and the chances of you changing it are nil. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry writes: To hear some tell it all US actions are noble, honorable and professional and all US military personnel heroes while the only human being to have actually died in this regrettable incident is a "hotdog" who deserved to die. Now that’s jingoism.

If you saw film of previous flights by Chicoms harassing *legal* flights, you would ulnderstand why the Chicom died.  He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.  No jingoism or chauvinism involved.  Poor judgement, poor driving skills, lack of common sense, and unnecessary aggression caused his death, and damn near cause the death of *our* aircremen.   As far as this not belonging on roff:  well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?  Like "native American" crap and "squaw" crap and other politically correct crap.  As long as the religious and patriotic intolerant Fortenberry says so, it must be so!  Bullshit!  See my hat.  And, MY brother was in the marines too.  What does *that* have to do with anything? Dave

Response:

Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. They were being held by a foreign power. They got to survive and come home. The West Sound is very Navy. People here care a lot about these things. So they threw a big Welcome home party. The Pacific is a big Ocean – 6 hours from the HI, so when they were 40 minutes out I posted that. Now maybe the desire to celebrate this small victory locally is partly to counter the many recent unfortunate happenings in WA like the Earthquake, the loss of a large fishing crew in the Bering sea last week, Boeing, etc etc. But I think people were genuine in their appreciation for these young people. As for the politics of it – you know that my politics are relatively progressive for this forum. No one would ever mistake me for a conservative. But you also know that I save my strongest disdain for ideology and ideologues right and left. And all know that I loath Bush, still support McCain, think Rumsfeld is dangerous, and am thankful that Powell is there to moderate things, and because of his caution borne of his combat experience. You feeling anti-war? Got anything to say about the Israeli Army abuse of Arab civilians? How about dual citizenship "Americans" called up as IDF reservists for a few weeks of fun in Gaza? Feel like a crusade? I understand there is a boatload of child slaves missing off Benin. Or maybe a little looksee at the status of foreign household domestics in Chambama might be needed. Teaching reading in the inner city? You do not know that probably the largest inner city volunteer tutoring programs are operated by the military. Most ships have such programs. The military is also far ahead of the rest of the country on affirmative action, family involvement and responsibility in the schools, family leave and support, universal medical coverage, equal opportunity, environmental stewardship and a few others. Like my rightwing nemesis, you assume too much. My point being that pissing on a Welcome Home party for some GIs in WA, doesn’t fulfill the monthly dues assignment for even our most peripatetic Naderite. Lighten up. You get the last word if you want it. Dave

Response:

Ken, Is your life a piece of shit? I don’t believe it is. Do you? I believe you are a precious and utterly unique thing, and so am I, along with everybody else. Bottom line: My personal understanding is that people died so I could sit here at this keyboard and type whatever I want. I am grateful for those who have died, and to those who put themselves at risk for this country. I’m happy to see these kids come home and proud of the way they handled their situation. If that’s chest thumping, I’m going to thump my chest every chance I get. You can call it unseemly, call it any fucking thing you want. But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable. LR

Response:

…  He "deserved" to die simply because he was harassing another aircraft in international waters when he should not have.

He was no doubt under orders to harass the spy plane just as an American "hotdog" would be under orders to harass a Chinese spy plane in international waters off the coast of California. I doubt you’d be so cavalier about the death of an American aviator. As far as this not belonging on roff:  well, it seems like you and only you get to pick roffs contents?  

I don’t pick contents, but if I see something that makes this place an uncomfortable place for me or for others who want to discuss flyfishing I’ll either ignore it or bitch about it as I see fit. I suggest you do the same. … And, MY brother was in the marines too.  What does *that* have to do with anything?

Only that I’m not totally unsympathetic to career military. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Whats the fucking big deal? They are American Navy people. …

No big deal, I’m just tired of all the hoop-de-la and the bloodlust was just starting to taper off on ROFF when you had to go and bring the damn thing up again. And believe it or not, not every flyfisherman in the world gives a flying fuck about the American Navy. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

… But ingratitude is worse than unseemly, it’s dishonorable.

Worship the military if that’s your wont, but calling folks dishonorable is no way find a fishing partner. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Take it any way you want. I didn’t call you dishonorable, but your behavior is. Enough dishonorable behavior and I may eventually judge you as dishonorable, but it’ll take a long time for me to feel that way about you. Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

Response:

… Since I took you to task publicly, I apologize in public for doing so. I should have emailed you.

No problem, Lennie. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ken,    According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.  You are totally missing the point.  This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield.  Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing?  Because they are military, should we not welcome them home?    It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor.  Their job?  Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act.  If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.    Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war.  Their job?  Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war.    I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home.  I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst. These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military.  Their IQs average in the top 10 percent.  It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat.  Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job.  The washout rate is as high as 60%.    It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness."  They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands.  99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror.  For this they make about $20,000 a year.    I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8.  One of my coworkers was his roommate.  We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way.  We are relieved that they’ve returned home.  We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving.    Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama."  He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.         Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

Well said Frank, I think only those of us who have known the military as "family" for a goodly portion of our lives can really appreciate what the Whidbey Island folks felt today, it is a special bond that is still with me 31 yrs after retirement from the USAF.  I also believe that *most* Americans celebrate with us. Frank Church, TSgt, USAF (Ret)

Response:

Ken,     According to Websters, a jingo is a person who boasts of his patriotism and favors an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.  You are totally missing the point.  This is a welcome home for a group of Americans that was held captive after making an emergency landing at a foreign airfield.  Would we have accepted this kind of treatment if this had been an airliner full of civilians, held by a foreign power after such an emergency landing?  Because they are military, should we not welcome them home?     It is not "jingoistic" to feel proud of a group of people who have been through a difficult ordeal, handled it with professionalism and returned home with honor.  Their job?  Ensuring that we are not suprised by an unforseen hostile act.  If we can find out about what is going on, then mayhaps we can PREVENT an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy.     Neither is it jingoistic to be saddened by the deaths of American and Vietnamese service men in Vietnam, years after the end of the war.  Their job?  Bringing closure to the families who lost love ones in that war.     I’ve watched both of these incidents unfold over the last few days. They hit home.  I was an Air Force linguist and intelligence analyst.  These are some of the brightest and hardest working folks in the military.  Their IQs average in the top 10 percent.  It takes over 1 1/2 years in school, 8 hours a day with six hours of homework to even sit in the seat.  Then there is another year and a half of qualification on-the-job.  The washout rate is as high as 60%.     It is a very tight knit community. They are called "purple suiters" (the color of blue, green, and black uniforms combined) as they are the most "joint" job in the military. The mix of this crew is indicative of this "jointness."  They do their wartime job day in and out with life and death decisions in their hands.  99% boredom, 1% stark raving terror.  For this they make about $20,000 a year.     I was at the Defense Language Institute at the same time as one of those guys on the MI-8.  One of my coworkers was his roommate.  We are heartened and glad that the EP-3 incident did not end in the same way.  We are relieved that they’ve returned home.  We are welcoming them home as a nation, as you would welcome an old friend into your home for Thanksgiving.     Ken, Dave was not expressing "jingoistic melodrama."  He, like many of us, were expressing a collective sigh of relief, that these men and women returned home to the ruffles and flourishes of the National Anthem and not the saddening strains of Taps.          Frank Reid, MSgt, USAF (Ret) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick.

I can be insufferable without any help whatsoever from the United States Navy, thank you very much. Glad you enjoyed the TV show, Louie, now let’s hip-hip, hup-hup and go kill some Commies for the Gipper. Sheesh, take this crap somewhere where the coarser elements of our society gather to wallow in their ignorance, it has no place on ROFF. — Ken Fortenberry

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They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS. dave

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They are about 40 minutes from touchdown at Whidby NAS.

You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama.

After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave Dave

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Ken Fortenberry: You’re about the last one I’d expect to entertain ROFF with jingoistic melodrama. After watching the Whidby Naval Air reunion, let me be the first to say, Ken, bleed out your ears *and* eyes.  God Bless America, the U.S. Navy and our brave men and women who enable you to be such an insufferable intolerant little prick. Dave

AMEN! — Tight Lines! Brian D. Nelson Diamond N Outfitters, Missoula, Montana http://www.montana.com/dno 406-626-4022

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Question:

I have a photo of what you can expect to see in Yellowstone in August: http://www.ruralnetwork.net/%7Etroutbum/album/sp_miscellaneous/madiso… There must have been 100 people alongside the road watching these morons (and I don’t mean the elk). When you drive through the Park make sure to stop and get out of your car at every traffic jam. There’ll probably be some cool wildlife. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Cool picture, but not especially frightful. I fish in RMNP at least 20 days each season and I obliviously get that close to elk several times each year. The national park elk herds tend to be pretty docile; I don’t recall the last time I heard of anyone around here being hurt by one. Bull moose, on the other hand, scare the shit out of me. "rw" wrote I have a photo of what you can expect to see in Yellowstone in August:

http://www.ruralnetwork.net/%7Etroutbum/album/sp_miscellaneous/madiso… adison_elk.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There must have been 100 people alongside the road watching these morons (and I don’t mean the elk). When you drive through the Park make sure to stop and get out of your car at every traffic jam. There’ll probably be some cool wildlife.

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Cool picture, but not especially frightful. I fish in RMNP at least 20 days each season and I obliviously get that close to elk several times each year. The national park elk herds tend to be pretty docile; I don’t recall the last time I heard of anyone around here being hurt by one. Bull moose, on the other hand, scare the shit out of me.

That bull had a harem of about 15 cows behind him, out of the picture. I’d have been out of the water pronto. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

Count me in.  Awfully touristy, but the company would more than make up for that.  I have been looking forward to especially seeing you again Ken — Warren Findley

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I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

Are the dates flexible at all, if so yes. I can’t go anywhere from the 4th to the 11th of any month. Not that I would expect anyone to change the dates just for me, but since it was early I’d thought I’d ask. The following week would be my birthday and there is no way my wife could say no <g — Wayne Knight Expert in creating tailing loops and windknots Otherwise Fishless in Kansas

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Good point.  The Labor Day cut-off is not as sharp as it used to be years ago.  Just too many people have taken up fly-fishing and more people have more flexibility in their work/vacation schedules.  It’s not until October or so until the streams are truly people-free.  Still, I don’t think the post-labor day crowds rival at all the August circus.  It would be helpful to have up-to-date info (based on this past year’s experience) on which areas/campgrounds are likely to be least crowded. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Two years ago we packed into Slough Creek, campground 8.  Before we went in we had some time to spend driving around Yellowstone and fishing a few creeks.  Some places were crowded, some weren’t.  One of the nicest fish I caught was in Soda Butte creek.  It was a short walk and no other people.   After Labor Day, my wife and I drove through the park both going and coming from a visit to friends in Stephensville, MT.  The streams were packed!  I visited Bud Lilly’s fly shop and the first thing the guy behind the counter said to me is, "If you’re here to book a guide, we’re full up for the next several weeks."  I guess everyone had the idea to wait until the kids were back in school.   In spite of this—have a clave and I’ll try to make it.  I like those short drives.  It’s only about 5 hours from home:)

Response:

Are the dates flexible at all, …

Well, yes and no. September is completely out of the question for us, Kristine has work commitments. I mentioned the first full week in August because traditionally the Yellowstone Institute has a full slate of interesting classes for the non-fishing folks like Kristine to attend. The Summer 2001 Course Catalog is due out any day now, will post a pointer when it appears. Big Dale, I couldn’t find the 2001 dates for the Livingston FFF Conclave on their website, you’re right it would be nice to gather either just before or just after. Do you know those dates ? — Ken Fortenberry

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Conclave on their website, you’re right it would be nice to gather either just before or just after. Do you know those dates ? –

The dates for the FFF conclave are Aug.6-11, but most often I attend only wed afternoon thru saturday, so if the clave is that week I could still make most of the clave. I sure as hell don’t want to miss fishing in the Yellowstone area with you guys a second year in a row. Besides, I need a fix of shopping in Blue Ribbon Flies in West Yellowstone. Let me know who to contact for cabin reservations in the park as I would rather plan this sooner than later knowing how the park fills up. Big Dale

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[snipped] I did have the opportunity to camp out in Yellowstone for 10 days in September once, though, and it was one of the most memorable trips of my life.  The elk are in full rut, and are right in the campgrounds.  Makes it a little hard to sleep when a monster bull is bugling right outside the tent, but it is very exciting.  You owe it to yourself to go there in the fall sometime if you haven’t yet.

Been there, done that, had to scramble into a tight bundle of lodge poles to avoid being skewered. /daytripper (That was one ornery bull elk…)

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I think you misspelled "horny".  :-) Frank (ain’t gonna mount me) Church [snipped] Been there, done that, had to scramble into a tight bundle of lodge poles to avoid being skewered. /daytripper (That was one ornery bull elk…)

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Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ? Ken please count me in on this Clave….it will be my first and I can kill two birds with one stone!  Attend my first Clave and get the wife to Yellowstone.

Did anyone else notice the red flag?

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like those short drives.  It’s only about 5 hours from home:)

It is a lot longer drive from Dallas, but I would be willing. It would be nice if the clave was either the week before or the week after the FFFconclave in Livingston. My greatest regret of 2000 is not being able to make the Montana clave.. Big Dale

Response:

I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school.

Well, sure, that’s great, if you don’t have to be there at school to teach the kiddies! I would be seriously hot to go to a Yellowstone Clave in August, although the third or fourth week of August would be best for me, as I plan to be in British Columbia for the first half of Aug (see my other post), and would likely be driving back through Montana about that time. I did have the opportunity to camp out in Yellowstone for 10 days in September once, though, and it was one of the most memorable trips of my life.  The elk are in full rut, and are right in the campgrounds.  Makes it a little hard to sleep when a monster bull is bugling right outside the tent, but it is very exciting.  You owe it to yourself to go there in the fall sometime if you haven’t yet. Kevin

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Any interest ?

Count me in. KR

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Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that.

<Snip I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

Ken please count me in on this Clave….it will be my first and I can kill two birds with one stone!  Attend my first Clave and get the wife to Yellowstone. Ed "Luckyboy" Bleck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Ken Fortenberry

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With all these claves coming up in the next year it might be a good idea to put an agenda somewhere on the web in order to keep track of what’s happening where, when, who to contact and how to get there. Maybe a good reason to revive www.roff.org? Herman

So far there’s talk (and more) about September in Maine, May in PA, and I think Michigan in March/April. – but I could be wrong.  A list with dates on a site would be a good idea. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree.  Based on several years’ experience (although I haven’t been there since 95), it will be much more pleasant after Labor Day.  There will still be a good number of other folks fishing, but it won’t be the madhouse August is.  Fishing is great throughout September. JR I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school.

  Two years ago we packed into Slough Creek, campground 8.  Before we went in we had some time to spend driving around Yellowstone and fishing a few creeks.  Some places were crowded, some weren’t.  One of the nicest fish I caught was in Soda Butte creek.  It was a short walk and no other people.   After Labor Day, my wife and I drove through the park both going and coming from a visit to friends in Stephensville, MT.  The streams were packed!  I visited Bud Lilly’s fly shop and the first thing the guy behind the counter said to me is, "If you’re here to book a guide, we’re full up for the next several weeks."  I guess everyone had the idea to wait until the kids were back in school.   In spite of this—have a clave and I’ll try to make it.  I like those short drives.  It’s only about 5 hours from home:) Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Any interest ?

Me. Joel Axelrad

Response:

I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded.

I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school. Willi

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I agree.  Based on several years’ experience (although I haven’t been there since 95), it will be much more pleasant after Labor Day.  There will still be a good number of other folks fishing, but it won’t be the madhouse August is.  Fishing is great throughout September. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I vote for a Western first part of Sept. after the kiddies have gone back to school.

Response:

With all these claves coming up in the next year it might be a good idea to put an agenda somewhere on the web in order to keep track of what’s happening where, when, who to contact and how to get there. Maybe a good reason to revive www.roff.org? Herman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. We’ve got Wolfie’s steelhead expedition in late March early April, Tom’s Spring ‘Clave on the legendary limestone creeks of Pennsylvania in May, but nothing planned yet for anything west of the Mississip’ during the summer of 2001. Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ? — Ken Fortenberry

–         Cheers, Herman         Herman Nijland         Daytime webmaster         Lifetime flyfisher

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Last week in August, first week in September – whenever the fishing is good and the crowds are lowest; count me in! Bob in El Paso – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had to miss last year,s western clave, but I,m interested in going out in August.  Indian Joe   Wilmington N.C

Response:

Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. We’ve got Wolfie’s steelhead expedition in late March early April, Tom’s Spring ‘Clave on the legendary limestone creeks of Pennsylvania in May, but nothing planned yet for anything west of the Mississip’ during the summer of 2001. Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ? — Ken Fortenberry

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Had to miss last year,s western clave, but I,m interested in going out in August.  Indian Joe   Wilmington N.C

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nothing to whet the appetite for a ‘Clave like a rousing success of a ‘Clave and Bruce’s San Juan ‘Clave was certainly that. We’ve got Wolfie’s steelhead expedition in late March early April, Tom’s Spring ‘Clave on the legendary limestone creeks of Pennsylvania in May, but nothing planned yet for anything west of the Mississip’ during the summer of 2001. Charlie & Willi were making noises about a Colorado ‘Clave and that would be great, but I was thinking a ‘Clave in Yellowstone National Park might be worth considering. If we stayed up in Mammoth Hot Springs we’d be within easy driving distance of Soda Butte, Lamar, Slough Creek and literally miles and miles of decent trout water. I’m thinking the first full week of August, Sunday the 5th to Saturday the 11th. We’d have to get going pretty quickly on reservations, the Park fills up early. Any interest ?

I’d opt for the last week in August, if it be August at all. Hoppers, cooler temperatures, and hopefully less crowded. I include the Madison, Henry’s Lake, the Gallatin, etc, in "Yellowstone". Going all that way might as well hit the biggies… /daytripper (Gonna think about it)

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Question:

It was good to meet you and great to fish with you. Hope you continue to post. Next year maybe a Colorado/New Mexico Clave? Willi

Response:

Next year maybe a Colorado/New Mexico Clave? Willi

Now that that cat is out of the bag, I’ll tell you that I’ve started a list of potential locations for a CO/NM western clave 2001. A friend in the office showed me some pictures today, and after some coaxing i got the locations from him….  beautiful cutthroats…. lots of other nearby fishing….. WESTERN CLAVE 2001  in a secret town somewhere in southern colorado. bruiser Before you buy.

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Education & employment: Went to college in Lubbock, Tx at Texas Tech University.  Received a BBA in MIS/Finance and MBA with a concentration in MIS.  

Welcome to another Red Raider. As far as I know we are the only two on ROFF. Big Dale, Class of ‘77

Response:

colorado. bruiser

Count me in. Any excuse to get to the mountains in the summertime. Big Dale

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Count me in!!! But whats this "next year" stuff?? Ain’t there fishin yet to be done this year, or do you suppose there’s so many claves going already there might be conflicts? (Conflicts??? on ROFF??? Tell me ain’t so !!!) Danl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Next year maybe a Colorado/New Mexico Clave? Willi Now that that cat is out of the bag, I’ll tell you that I’ve started a list of potential locations for a CO/NM western clave 2001. A friend in the office showed me some pictures today, and after some coaxing i got the locations from him….  beautiful cutthroats…. lots of other nearby fishing….. WESTERN CLAVE 2001  in a secret town somewhere in southern colorado. bruiser Before you buy.

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With Big Dale and Dan’l, it’s a CLAVE already. We want time to plan, and time for everyone to restock their travel $ and hall passes.  Probably July 2001. Big Dale, we all missed you at the W Clave, although we know you’d have liked to go. We’ll get Jon Cook and Kelly roped into it also i’m sure.  Correct me if i’m wrong, jon, but it seems like you know your way around NM and CO pretty well. Before you buy.

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BIO name:  Kelly Rogers but I answer to a lot of things, depending upon the who’s yellin’ at me

<snipped a damn impressive BIO ’bout damn time there Kelly! <g  Enjoyed reading your 3 part post and look forward to reading mroe from you.  I was beginning to think you were going to wuss out. So did you do any fishin’ after the clave?  Feel free to email me the secret locations. I never did get a chance to stop in there and check on that girly, but I am planning on going for a weekend very soon and will no doubt have some free time. — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

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rivers. Big Dale All we need is a clavemeister, Big Dale. I know at least one guy will show up.

It won’t be me. I have spent my whole life trying to stay out of west Texas and the decade I spent there was the worst flyfishing in my life. Big Dale

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I’m also thinking of a trip to southern Colorado/northern New Mexico sometime this September to check out some possible areas. Anyone interested in getting together?

   I’m up for that Willi, let’s synchonize our daytimers.    I’d been giving some thought to doing a clave in the North Park area, maybe even volunteering to be clavemeister. Wherever it is held, the bossman will need to be somebody with good knowledge of the local waters; me and Willi and probably a few others can find our way around North Park. Just an idea.

Response:

   I’d been giving some thought to doing a clave in the North Park area, maybe even volunteering to be clavemeister. Wherever it is held, the bossman will need to be somebody with good knowledge of the local waters; me and Willi and probably a few others can find our way around North Park. Just an idea.

Dude, what about South Park?!?  Oh my god!  You killed Vern!  You bastard!!!! <g — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

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It ain’t a hell of a lot of fun flyfishing in the land of dusty rivers. Big Dale

Response:

It ain’t a hell of a lot of fun flyfishing in the land of dusty rivers. Big Dale All we need is a clavemeister, Big Dale. I know at least one guy will show up.

I don’t know.  Maybe a Vegas Clave with each member bringing a big roll of 20s.  Maybe Vern can give us some casting lessons and show us where the honey holes are <g — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

Response:

It ain’t a hell of a lot of fun flyfishing in the land of dusty rivers. Big Dale

All we need is a clavemeister, Big Dale. I know at least one guy will show up. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I do have a question though.  What are the possiblities of having more than one Western Clave for 2001?  Maybe another in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming as well as the CO/NM clave.  Thoughts, ideas, suggestions anyone?

How about West Texas? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

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(awesome plan clipped) WHAT HE SAID!!! bruiser Before you buy.

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Willi, September’s great i agree.  I’m into a remodeling job on a dump i just bought but maybe a day or two here and there… I am psyched now for next september. bruiser Before you buy.

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Willi, September’s great i agree.  I’m into a remodeling job on a dump i just bought but maybe a day or two here and there… I am psyched now for next september. bruiser

Bruiser, you know to just count me in.  How the hell could I say no after reading over half of this book in one night (p 104 of 142 btw)?!?! I do have a question though.  What are the possiblities of having more than one Western Clave for 2001?  Maybe another in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming as well as the CO/NM clave.  Thoughts, ideas, suggestions anyone? — Warren Findley Member of the Clavemeister Club Before you buy.

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I do have a question though.  What are the possiblities of having more than one Western Clave for 2001?  Maybe another in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming as well as the CO/NM clave.  Thoughts, ideas, suggestions anyone?

I like Willi’s idea for a September CO/NM ‘Clave. I’ve been mulling over the idea of a summer ‘Clave in the Park. If we got on it early enough we could rent cabins at Roosevelt and be a short drive from a wide variety of fishing. From the geezer accessible Lamar and Soda Butte to the real challenge of Hellroaring Creek and the canyon of the Yellowstone. Steve’s horses are welcome in the Park and of course there’s campgrounds for those that prefer to camp. Just a thought. — Ken Fortenberry

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I’m game if I can work out the time schedule. When do you have in mind? Danl

July 2001. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I vote for fall. Fishing is always good in September. Weather is usually great, tourists are gone etc. July fishing depends on snow pack and the tourists are out in force. I’m also thinking of a trip to southern Colorado/northern New Mexico sometime this September to check out some possible areas. Anyone interested in getting together? Willi

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restock their travel $ and hall passes.  Probably July 2001.

This sounds good, but a little naive. I don’t see my travel $ ever being restocked what with some talking of a meeting in The Big Easy ( I always spend WAY TOO MUCH in the big easy). I have never fishing in Penn and have always wanted to see a game in Happy Valley. I have always enjoyed fishing Northern New Mexico and Colorado. One area I go to as often as I can is around Gunnison, cause it has lots of different types of water. I happen to enjoy those little brookies and cutthroats in the high mountain meadows…they are small but the area is beautiful. The more I think about it I am tempted to load the truck and leave right now. Big Dale.

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With Big Dale and Dan’l, it’s a CLAVE already. We want time to plan, and time for everyone to restock their travel $ and hall passes.  Probably July 2001.

I vote for fall. Fishing is always good in September. Weather is usually great, tourists are gone etc. July fishing depends on snow pack and the tourists are out in force. Big Dale, we all missed you at the W Clave, although we know you’d have liked to go. We’ll get Jon Cook and Kelly roped into it also i’m sure.  Correct me if i’m wrong, jon, but it seems like you know your way around NM and CO pretty well.

I’m also thinking of a trip to southern Colorado/northern New Mexico sometime this September to check out some possible areas. Anyone interested in getting together? Willi

Response:

BIO name:  Kelly Rogers but I answer to a lot of things, depending upon the who’s yellin’ at me vitals: 6′4", as recent as a couple of months ago 226 lbs but currently hoverin’ around 208 lbs. (who says lite beer diet doesn’t work) , 35 yrs old the early years:  Born in Irving, TX but moved to Big Spring, TX in 1972 when my Grand Pa  past away.  Moved there to take over the family cotton farm along with a small time (and I do mean small time, 25-30 head) cattle operation that was thrown in for good measure.  Had a great up bringing of hard work on the farm, chasing gals in the big city of Big Spring, and drinking beer (not necessarily in that order). Education & employment: Went to college in Lubbock, Tx at Texas Tech University.  Received a BBA in MIS/Finance and MBA with a concentration in MIS.  Went to work at Sandia National Labs in 1992 and currently still employed there which is my first and only job outside of the farm. marital stats:  Married 10 years in June but that will probably be done in about a month. fishin’ stats:  Started fishing early on mostly on lakes and stock ponds around the house.  Not much to choose from in west Texas.  In 1992, a co-worker introduced me to flyfishing and have looked back since. Other interest: bird hunting and up until 1992-93, competitive trapshooting. Started shooting in 1979 through 4-H.  Shot skeet for about 1 1/2 years before a friend invited me over to the trap range one Saturday.  Shot three rounds that day and the friend told my Dad that if he didn’t take me to San Angelo the next day to shoot in the Zone II shoot that he would.  Dad took me that next day where I won runner up in the handicap championship.  Used the prize money to buy my own BT-99 and finished out that year shooting only singles and handicap.  The next year I started shooting doubles in order to try and make the All-American team.  Made the junior team that year and the next.  After the second year on the team, the ATA sent me to the US Nationals for Olympic style shooting where I won the US Nationals. Over the next 3 years, I won the Nationals one more time and 3rd twice.  As a junior, I shot in two World Championships in 1983 (Canada) and 1985 (Italy).  Won 2nd in ‘83 and 4th in ‘85.  I quit Olympic style after ‘85 and went back to shooting ATA.  Shot for the next 6 years with my best year coming in the 91′ season where I ended up high-overall and doubles (at the time, my average was 8th highest on record but they’ve since kicked the livin’ snot outta that) average leader for the year.  Over the years, I shot a Browning BT-99, Gamba combo, Perazzi, Beretta (they made a matched set of combo’s for me when I was there in 85), and finally a Kreighoff K-80 from ‘89 on.  In ‘93, I was hitting pretty hard on the burnout factor when I suffered a 2.5-degree separation of my right shoulder playing softball.  Combine those two things with my new love of flyfishing, I decided to hang’em up.  I’m also an avid hacker, and I do mean hacker, of the golf ball. Jeez, pretty simple life I guess but that’s about it. Kelly

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Question:

I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from.  I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people.  I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge.  I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft.  Single engine or double, im open on that.  Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James

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Expensive, but nice.  Davis Boats in Morro Bay.  Rock Harbor 36. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from.  I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people.  I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge.  I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft.  Single engine or double, im open on that.  Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James

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OOPs Make that the Rock Harbor 25.  Bad fingers. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Expensive, but nice.  Davis Boats in Morro Bay.  Rock Harbor 36. Bill I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from.  I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people.  I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge.  I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft.  Single engine or double, im open on that.  Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James

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Question:

you have your harness, you have your carabener(sp) you have your parachute with the long lanyard you might carry a couple more carabeners for a classic 3 bean’er attachment for lowering your self to the ground R. (repelling all the way down) Williams – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a saw or better judgement

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a saw or better judgement

I recall that a self-rescue kit for tree landings was standard equipment among Tennessee/Georgia HG pilots when I flew there too many years ago. Consisted of one of those flexible-wire saws, a length of strong cord, some basic first-aid material and a whistle. may have been some other items, but it was along time ago. It was not for nothing that the local club is the ‘Tennessee Tree Toppers’, and yes, I qualified. Didn’t need the saw, though, ‘cos I fell straight out. Noel

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

A recent issue of paragliding magazine had just such a plan.  I don’t remember the exact issue but you can probably find out at the USHGA web site <http://www.ushga.org. — Forrest Keller

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Yes It is called "Tooth Floss" and comes in small boxes from the chemist. Strong enough to be dropped from the tree and haul up a climbing rope! Stewart Reid

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

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a saw

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

Check out http://www.kurious.org/PG/treeresq.htm Thanks to Lowell Skoog. Floyd Rogers

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Hi from Dwayne, A box of Dental Floss and say 5 2ft long ropes in your harness pocket. The dental floss is used to pull up a heaver rope when you are stuck in a tree. The 2ft ropes are used to tie yourself or your glider to the tree. I started my hang gliding in Wellington in 1995 back flying with Grant Tatham and company. In Dallas Texas now – I hope to visit NZ again soon. Regards, Dwayne Sinclair.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit?

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a saw

or better judgement

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Does anyone know of a design or plan for a tree rescue kit? Here in the NW USA, we have lots and lots of trees.  Unfortunately,

sometimes instead of flying over them, we fly into them.  We have a couple of guys in our club who put on a tree rescue clinic.  They also have recommendations for tree rescue kits.  Our trees are very tall (200 feet) so we have to be prepared.  I don’t know much about tree life in New Zealand, but in the Eastern US, a lot of places only have 30 foot trees. Anyway, we have very long tested ropes, at least 100 foot long for out here. About pencil width. Some people fly with them, others leave it in the truck. I leave it in the truck and carry fishing line in my PG harness.  In the HG I don’t have as much of penetration problems, but maybe I should carry it there too. I think 20 lb fishing test line is good to get the rope up to you.  One trick I used is to run over the line with my truck. I know it sounds weird, but it makes the spool much smaller without damaging the integrity of the spool or the line. It fits into harness better that way. You should also have an extra carabiner, you should know how to do the Munter hitch to lower yourself down, use the bowline knot to tie yourself or stuff off.  A lot of guys bring like an eight foot strap to immediately tie oneself into the trunk of the tree so you don’t fall while you’re getting yourself together.  You can really tire yourself out holding onto the tree wating for help.  I think those are the main things. John Saltveit Oregon NW USA

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maybe supplies for a tree fort

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Question:

Where did the word "redd" initiate…?

redd (r

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Yep, the Lindners have sold In-Fisherman to Primedia Inc. on Tuesday according to John Husar in his column in todays Chicago Tribune. Thoughts? Jay — I’d rather be chasing walleye’s at Tenmile Lake!

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If this means the Lindners tv presentations, thier style of presenting a full spectrum of fishing for ALL the various fish, the style and content of thier magazine, will all be changed or discarded,then yes,it’s truly a sad day for  thier thousands of fans.                                               ~ The Saint                                                        

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hell yeah its sad but all their magazines books and videos will be worth something in the future im keeping mine!!!                                      

Question:

 A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit? — Rick Todd                     Milwaukee, Wisconsin http://www.execpc.com/~rtodd/rlthome.htm Just another speck in the dustpile of the Internet.

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A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit?

Why not contact In-Fisherman directly? Regards, — Rick Todd                     Milwaukee, Wisconsin http://www.execpc.com/~rtodd/rlthome.htm Just another speck in the dustpile of the Internet.

         Trent Roberson            Rx F Fish  For Your Good Health, Fly Fish URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

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:  A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It : was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let : him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this : unit? Hmmm, sounds nice if your in clear blue water, but not sure how well that would work in the Midwestern waters. I have a scuba enclosure on my camcorder, and i once dropped it into Lake Calumet. Nothing but brown water on that tape (couldn’t see a thing). I think in most places around here (I noticed your ISP is from Milwaukee) you’d be better off with a fish finder type unit.       Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page:  http://www.ripco.com/~jwn/

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A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit?

It is being developed by Ron Lindner and, I think, Tony Capra.  The camera is lowered on a tether/video cable arrangement.  As far as viewing what the camera is focused on you can use either a small monitor, video recorder, or virtual reality glasses (which is what they were using=goggles). Could only be used on about a quarter of the lakes I fish … Jay — Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.                                             – Henry David Thoreau

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I don’t know if this is the same setup, but a company called "Fisheye" makes an underwater camera. You can reach them at: Fisheye PO Box 3311 Everett, WA  98203 (206) 339-1352 (800) Fish-969 http://www.fisheyeinc.com Their units start at $1445.00. If you want to go cheaper, I know where you can purchase solid state, near .1 lux cameras that are small (2" X 2") that create there own IR light source.  Just the thing for our murky waters up here in Milwaukee.  They go for around $150, but you would need to make a waterproof case for it.   I’ve heard of these being attached to the weight of a downrigger, to watch the fish coming up to the lure. I have explored all avenues of this, had have everything figured out, except the waterproof case. The goggles are simply VR goggles setup to display video images.  A friend told me of a camera he saw on In-Fisherman over the weekend. It was a unit that went into the water and the person wore "goggles" that let him see what was coming from the camera. Anyone know any specifics on this unit?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rick Todd                     Milwaukee, Wisconsin http://www.execpc.com/~rtodd/rlthome.htm Just another speck in the dustpile of the Internet.

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Question:

Hi Group– Well there’s now a pro and a con posted re: clipping hackle.  As a beginner in both tying them and fishing them, I’d like to see more on this subject from more experienced fishers–what does Issac Walton think about it?  Not being able to justify 50 bucks "for a bunch of feathers" to my dubious spouse, I don’t have many Metz primo capes, so I’m always snipping away at my creations.  (The height of my success as a tyer so far came when she swatted a fly I had in my vice–I call it a size 14 Blue-Green Bent Hook Flathead Roadkill). Anyway, should I add clipped hackle to my list of tying blunders?

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Yes, it is kind of a hassle to tie both wieghted and unweighted flies and keep them separated in your fly boxes.  Using both has allowed me to catch fish when the traditional nymph patterns would not produce.

No hassle of they are colour-coded by tying thread.  My weighted nymphs are all tied with red thread, easy to see;  if I were a closer imitationist I could choose between black, tan and olive. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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No hassle of they are colour-coded by tying thread.  My weighted nymphs are all tied with red thread, easy to see;  if I were a closer imitationist I could choose between black, tan and olive. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

Don, I do the same color coding with one small difference. I lead all my hooks first and use the color coded thread which I wrap down the bend of the hook a little. So, when I look in the flybox all I have to do is look under their little tails to see how I weighted them…   I know someone will come up with a good joke about looking under their tails (:^ Frank

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Don, I do the same color coding with one small difference. I lead all my hooks first and use the color coded thread which I wrap down the bend of the hook a little. So, when I look in the flybox all I have to do is look under their little tails to see how I weighted them… I know someone will come up with a good joke about looking under their tails (:^ Frank

Oh, I get it, Frank.  Sort of a variation on a lead-ass!  My father used to always call me that.  Now I know what he was talking about– the color of my underpants, which must have stuck out above my pants.  :^) (Sorry, best I could do under pressure.) :^( Charley

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        For slow to medium water, I’ve clipped a ^ into the bottom of the hackle for years. When I’m doing so, I deliberately use a hackle which is too long so that when trimmed will be the proper length.         The benefits of doing this are twofold. It sits very well on the water and has a terrific footprint on the water. A mayfly at rest on the water has long legs out to the side – not underneath it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well there’s now a pro and a con posted re: clipping hackle. When I started tying we had only Chinese and Idia necks.  We would have killed for a Metz #3 rooster neck.  Today they are around $30 and some shops split them in half or you might split one with a buddy. If you keep it away from bugs or you house pets they usually work to be a good long term investment with dries around $1.75 per each.  The most popular color is natural brown and then Grizzly.  Get some Pantone pens for coloring your Grizzly or Creme hackle in a pinch.  I haven’t clipped any hackle before, at least not on purpose, but I done think it would sit up like the natural ends.  Bill Kiene  Kiene’s Fly Shop  Sacramento, Ca.

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Well there’s now a pro and a con posted re: clipping hackle.

When I started tying we had only Chinese and Idia necks.  We would have killed for a Metz #3 rooster neck.  Today they are around $30 and some shops split them in half or you might split one with a buddy. If you keep it away from bugs or you house pets they usually work to be a good long term investment with dries around $1.75 per each.  The most popular color is natural brown and then Grizzly.  Get some Pantone pens for coloring your Grizzly or Creme hackle in a pinch.  I haven’t clipped any hackle before, at least not on purpose, but I done think it would sit up like the natural ends.  Bill Kiene  Kiene’s Fly Shop  Sacramento, Ca.

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Well can anyone out there give me a rule of thumb for weighting nymphs? My method in the past has been to first not weight the nymph itself so that it tumbled in the water more naturally.  I added weight (lead shot) about 8 inches up the tipet until JUST before my indicator would studder as the weight and nymph would drag the bottom.  I have always caught fish that way.  So I am fishing with this rookie who fished his nymph with no weight under an indicator.  I thought his nymph would never get anywhere near the bottom.  He started hooking fish and I was dry, both of us using the same PTs I had tied!.  Should I rething my nymphing strategy?  Can a nymph  act and be fished as an emerger with no modifications?  I’m thinking that these fish were wanting emergers and that my method for weighting is still very sound.  Opinions appreciated.  And please!  "No sticking to dry flys" cracks.

My experience in nymphing is that you should be prepared to offer both weighted and unweighted nymphs to actively feeding fish.  There are occasions when fish key on rising/hatching nymphs,  and virtually ignore bottom dwelling creatures even though they are plentiful. I try to tie my nymph flies to cover the full life cycle of the insect.  Something as simple as adding an emerging wing to a nymph can dramatically increase the effectiveness of a particular fly when nymphs are in transitional stage. As a rule of thumb for small nymphs (#14-#22) I add only enough weight to sink the fly a few inches.  I can always add or remove split shot to achieve the desired sink rate. Yes, it is kind of a hassle to tie both wieghted and unweighted flies and keep them separated in your fly boxes.  Using both has allowed me to catch fish when the traditional nymph patterns would not produce. I hope this helps. Bryan Bonds White River Anglers htttp://www.ipa.net/~bbonds Fayetteville, Ar

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:  (The height of my success as a tyer : so far came when she swatted a fly I had in my vice–I call it a size : 14 Blue-Green Bent Hook Flathead Roadkill).   Congratulations, Lee! Not often that the average joe can come up with a new pattern! You may want to publish it.  ;-  Anyway, should I add clipped hackle to my list of tying blunders?  My opinion, yes. It changes the appearnce of the fly. The fine tips of a natural feather make a difference in the silhoette and the floatabily. You may want to consider cheaper necks for now. The expensive one _are_ cheaper in the long run. More feathers per buck and fewer "bad" feathers per neck. The price is high to start though. Jon Porter

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Well can anyone out there give me a rule of thumb for weighting nymphs? My method in the past has been to first not weight the nymph itself so that it tumbled in the water more naturally.  I added weight (lead shot) about 8 inches up the tipet until JUST before my indicator would studder as the weight and nymph would drag the bottom.  I have always caught fish

[deleted] personally, i do not use my indicators like bobbers, constantly adjusting the weight until the perfect balance is acheived.  i much prefer using 3 to 5 tiny blobs of flourescent plastic indicator material (the sheet peel off types, not the big honking round versions of these…), Cortlands cut in 1/4ths or 1/6ths.  One right at the butt section/line connection and then spaced at 6-10 inch intervals.  this allows me to gauge… 1) depth of bug 2) directionality of leader 3) speed of drift 4) directionality of drift So you add some shot to get down and drown one or two of the indicators, so what …you can still see them under the water and see what attitude your your line is in relative to all the other variables. When you see a trout charge one of your sunken blobs of indicator you can switch to some kind of emerger and sagely pretend that you figured it out. Good fishing, Tim Walker

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