Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

O.K., I see where the problem lies.  Since the discussion was about salmon born in the river it never occured to me that the browns in question were sea run.  I assumed we were talking about stream resident browns and that the salmon had coloring that matched theirs.  We have browns here that live in Lake Michigan and head up the streams only to spawn.  Having seen a few of these, I understand how one could have trouble distinguishing between them, when fresh from the lake, and salmon.  As a matter of fact, limited as my experience with them is, I’m sure I couldn’t tell them apart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky

Rather an apt name considering the focus of this discussion.  The Root is probably the most popular stream in the state for salmon fishing.  As far as I know it also the most productive…..for reasons that are a complete mystery to me.  It is nasty, as is also true of all the streams in the extreme southern Lake Michigan watershed.  Doubtless, they all ran clear 200 years ago when the native prairie plants stabilized the rich silty soil, but all that ended the day the first sodbuster arrived.  Some progress has been made in cleaning them up in the last decade or two but MUCH more needs to be done and it will never happen, land use patterns being what they are here. Some, like the Milwaukee, the Menomonee, and a few of the smaller streams will run fairly clear during extreme low water conditions but they are typically opaque.  Agricultural and urban runoff, industrial pollutants, and sewage combined with an unknowable quantity of point source pollution conspire to make eating anything caught from these waters border on suicidal and yet thousands of people do.  What’s even more perplexing is that there actually IS something to be caught and eaten. Wolfgang

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I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

This has been an interesting discussion for me; and since I was the one who apparently misidentified the fish, even all the more so.   By now, a week later, I’m no longer sure.   It’s my recollection that the fish I caught had the brownish coloring with the distinctive spots of a brown.   Not knowing there were no browns in the river, I had no doubt at the time that is was indeed a brown trout.   Do these small landlocks also have the spots of a brown, or is my memory going to hell? (knowing full well these are mutually exclusive positions.) Joe F.

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I fished the EO last fall and caught a landlocked that very much resembled a brown in coloration. The guide explained that as the fish adapt to the river, their color changes (I guess like the so called "Black" Atlantics). I fished again this June, and all the landlocks were bright silver. HTH In all knowledge, consider the source. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave

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 or Gink- reaching Waldo

scott, you misspelt "gink-retching waldo." i’m a loon man…. a happy loonie. –waldo

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Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail?

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns and they taste muddy. He called them "dirty" salmon. Flyfish

Response:

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns

But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? and they taste muddy.

Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. He called them "dirty" salmon.

He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) Wolfgang

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Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR.

Reminds me.  I have a reference which says that Gull Lake in southwestern Michigan (no secrets here…common knowledge) has landlock salmon in it.  Anybody here ever fished it? Wolfgang

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW?

Goddamn RW

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Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake?

Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns. and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes.

I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :)

This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky Wolfgang

Flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

Caught a few of them on the Rapid – very brown-like but the shape was wrong – Dave explained the difference.  Funny thing, you can catch them in the same water, surrounded by regular landlocks.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Back when I worked for the fly shop,

Did you work at MGFS in Greenville?  Damn fine looking lady in there the days I went in.   SWMBO noticed also. Joe F.

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Enough! Enough! Black Flies be Damned! I want – NEED- to go back! Great TR. By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

At one of the claves LaPlac gave away a whole set of them in various stages. It was pretty cool (I just saw it, I didn’t win it). — Charlie…

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Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.

I was going to tie some 18’s but didn’t have the hooks when I sat down at the vise.   For 14’s, I used the larva lace you sent me a while back, but for the 16’s, the larva lace seemed too bulky & I used V-rib.   Never got around to the dubbing versions (couldn’t find the right color in the box, then dinner was ready, etc.) Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? There are numerous references….McClane’s "Encyclopedia" comes readily to mind….which detail the differences among various strains of a given species taken from waters where they have long been established.  From what I’ve seen of such illustrations it seems that some of the differences among and between such strains can be greater than what you’ve described above. Makes me wonder just how closely related the land locked salmon and the brown trout are.  Is this a missed opportunity for the lumpers and splitters to thump on one another? Wolfgang

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OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

BTW, while doing some nymph collecting a week or so ago I found green free-swimming caddis larva in my homewater. I had no idea they were there — I’d just assumed that all the caddis larva were of the cased variety, which are numerous. I’m going to have to try some GRWs. I’ve noticed that some fish I keep have stomachs full of what I can only describe as "green goo." I wonder if it’s GRWs? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described.   Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream.   I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern.  The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

Green rock worm? — Charlie…

Response:

Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.   Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.   Dave

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By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading.

I confess I don’t have the numbers.  The guide with whom I chatted mentioned them, but I don’t remember.   I believe it had been over 2,000 the previous day, but was well under that the days I fished there.   All I can say is that the river was very wadeable, and I was able to reach spots in the center that would probably be suicidal at higher flows. Joe F.

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

My guess is green rock worm, but it might be great rice wine, or Gink- reaching Waldo Scott

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Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.  

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg Joe F.

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Question:

Yo Dave, I’m with you. And I know this guy is probably going to beat me up for getting out of line here, but I couldn’t help imagining Pat’s voice as Eddie G Robinson’s." See, I use only braided line, see. You use that mono and the fish is going to rub you out, see. N’yeah" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "PAT" But I take it as an insult when you tell me I don’t have a clue. Look pards, I don’t know where you’re from, and don’t care really. ok lemme explain… i didnt mean to insult you i just thought it funny that you are telling a new jig man to forget the $150 curado he just bought and upgrade to 80 lb test.. he surely doesnt need that… you must agree that a new jig man who obviously isnt fishing for millions in prize money wouldnt need to go buy a $300 dollar set up with 80 lb test.. if he misses one fish a day who cares? Thats why its called fishing not catching! On to the next comment.. You misunderstood or misread what i wrote.. as it is quoted above i said that the name tuna should have been the first clue.. i said nothing about you being clueless.. yo might be a great fisherman but seems to me that you dispense tournament advice to an amatuer who is gettin interested in a type of fishing.. My last point.. the name "pards" might actually be taken as offensive.. i had nothing in my letter to you that was meant to be taken as a direct insult to you.. yet you reply to my email seems to not hold as much charecter!!! End of discussion. Dave

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Amen, AJH.  They should have to put labels about Jigs being addictive.  :-) After you start sticking those big beauties on the jig-n-chunk, your hooked for life.  I used to only use a jig for a short time at the end of the winter season, but then I learned to catch bass on the jig-n-pig (usually zoom super chunks).  Now I use them all year through.  Swimming them through shoreline weeds is almost as much fun as top water fishing. Bassman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I fish a jig and pig just like a plastic worm. I use a 3/16 or 1/4 oz black and blue jig (Strike King Bitsy Bug) with a Zoom swimmin chunk Sapphire blue trailer. Right now I am using 14lb hi vis mono, I have ordered 30lb test Berkley Fireline in the hi vis green. I too feel it’s very important to watch the line when fishing jig and pig and worms. I am trying the Fireline in hope of improving my hook set and maybe it will allow me to feel the bass bite. Once you catch a few bass on the jig and pig you become obsessed with it. Anybody want to buy 1200 powerworms. Also I remove about half of the fibers in the weed guard, I think it allows a better hook set. I have caught at least 12 bass on the swimmin chunk I have on now and it still looks good so you can one advantage it has over the worm. Stick with it you will get hooked

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"PAT" But I take it as an insult when you tell me I don’t have a clue. Look pards, I don’t know where you’re from, and don’t care really.

ok lemme explain… i didnt mean to insult you i just thought it funny that you are telling a new jig man to forget the $150 curado he just bought and upgrade to 80 lb test.. he surely doesnt need that… you must agree that a new jig man who obviously isnt fishing for millions in prize money wouldnt need to go buy a $300 dollar set up with 80 lb test.. if he misses one fish a day who cares? Thats why its called fishing not catching!   On to the next comment.. You misunderstood or misread what i wrote.. as it is quoted above i said that the name tuna should have been the first clue.. i said nothing about you being clueless.. yo might be a great fisherman but seems to me that you dispense tournament advice to an amatuer who is gettin interested in a type of fishing.. My last point.. the name "pards" might actually be taken as offensive.. i had nothing in my letter to you that was meant to be taken as a direct insult to you.. yet you reply to my email seems to not hold as much charecter!!! End of discussion.

Dave

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Me too. — Why is it called ‘Tourist Season’ if we can’t shoot them ?     Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to hear more. We routinely fish with 1oz. jigs in less than 3′ of water.   I’ll explain later if anyone’s interested. What your car says about you – Ford Crown Victoria – "I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them" — Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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holy smokes…..thanks for the input. Keep em’ comin’ I had luck w/ one fish so far. 3 pounder. As soon as the thing hit the water BOOM had a 4" green tube as a trailer. That was it for the rest of the day….I guess i’m gonna keep on fishin’ keeping a open mind. Brian

Response:

"Dave" Adjusted his Orvis fly fishing cap, put on his topsiders, laid down his Harvard business journal and decided the world needed to hear this: The name , tuna blank, of your "Heavy" setup should have been the first clue that you are not correctly set-up for bassin’ Dave

Look pards, I don’t know where you’re from, and don’t care really. I fish for money.  I described my tournament setups.  Why?  Lemme s’plain. First off, you gotta realise, we’re not throwing that jig on some rocky bank.   Three scenarios that I’ll explain, and maybe you’ll understand. 20′ deep matted hydrilla.  Use a minimum of a 1oz. jig.  Usually a 11/2 oz. when it’s really thick.  When that fish hits, if he moves laterally two feet, he’s gone. Lost, never to be seen again.  You must get him off the bottom and up through the matted grass instantly.  It ain’t gonna happen with 12 pound mono.  Period. Falcon lake, pitching into flooded mesquite trees.  VERY large, very strong fish.  They will stay in the thickest, nastiest part of the cover.  We used to use 30#mono, but you’d still get two a day lost by sawing off in the cover.   Skipping a jig under boat houses and docks.  Nasty place, lot’s of things to rub mono off on.  The braid ended the problem. Look Skippy, everyone goes fishing for a different reason.  If you think it’s more "sporting" to use light line, hey that’s just fine.  I’ve caught 120lb. Tarpon on fifteen pound line too.  It’s a different deal.  In a bass tournament, one lost fish is worth thousands of dollars. Literally.  If I can eliminate that from ever happening, then that’s what I’m gonna do.  But I take it as an insult when you tell me I don’t have a clue.  You spend one day on the lake with me, and you use your 6lb. mono.  Then let’s compare sacks at the end of the day.   End of discussion. Pat Goff

Response:

Hi Brian: Brain: "This is what i understand to date. You try to get it in the water next to or right in the cover making the least amount of noise you can. right?" Reply: Yes & No.  When flipping or pitching, you try and get as close as you can to your target without spooking the fish.  Often this will depend on water clarity and depth.  Depending on how close you are to your target depends on if you are flipping (0-15ft.) or pitching (15-40ft.).  Flipping is easy. Pitching on the other hand requires a lot of skill and practice.  The longer the rod the easier it is to perform both of these techniques. Your 6′6" rod is the minimum length you want to use for this technique.  A 7′6" or 8′ flipping (heavy) is the best rod for this technique.  But with 6′6" you should be able to pitch up to 25′ comfortably and quietly. Brian: "Here’s a scenario of a river we fish often. The edges of the river have thick weeds and brush back about 25 feet all seeming to be in 1-3 feet of water. NOW do i throw the jig into the brush? how far back do i throw it? OR do I just try to work the edges?" Reply: When I am fishing a weedbed, I first flip or pitch to the shade side of weed points, cuts, and holes (1′ to 3′ in) along the edge.  I position the boat parallel to the weedbed but 15′ to 20′ off the weedbed itself and work the entire edge.  Then I would slowly and quietly move my boat so that it was just touch the weeds and then flip or pitch to the holes that are further in the weeds and thoroughly fish the weedbed out. Brian: "When should i use different colors or weights of jigs?" Reply: As for color you need to know what the fish are feeding on.  If the primary forage is crawfish, then I would use black, brown, pumpkin, or watermelon. If the primary forage is shad then I would use black, white, or black/white blend or gray/black/white blend.  Clear water (crawfish) I use brown/black (jig skirt/trailer), pumpkin/green or pumpkin/orange, watermelon/brown, pumpkin/brown, pumpkin/black.  Clear water (shad) white/black (jig skirt/trailer), black/white, white/white, black&gray/white. As far as weight, I use small 1/8, 3/16, 1/4 ounce jigs for smallmouth around rock and gravel bottom (0-8 ft of water)and #101 or #11 pork trailers, or 5/16 ounce for deeper water #11 trailer.  I use 5/16 & 3/8 ounce jigs for largemouth along weedbeds, brush piles, etc.  I use 1/2, 3/4, and 1 ounce jigs for thick weeds or fishing deep structures.  But I believe we can all learn from Woo’s Classic victory.  So you can count on me trying 3/16 & 1/4 jigs on 8 pound test with #11 trailers in deeper water. Brian: "Do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all? Does the same things apply here the same as in all other tackle? Or is it just a convoy mission to get in there, scare the crap out of the fish, so he’ll bite and then bring him on home?" Reply: Tough question.  I personally start with flipping or pitching a jig into the cover and let it settle to the bottom.  Then I hop it a couple of times in place (1" to 3"), then a couple more moving hops (6"-12") and then I swim it out.  Remember to stop it just before the jig gets to the top and let it drop a second and then pull it.  Once I get a strike or two, I know what they want and I drop the other movements. Brain: "If somebody could be kind enough to explain the point of Jig-n-a pig. It would make me(i bet a bunch of other people too!) understand it better." Reply: There are many types of jigs, all for different types of cover and presentations.  Jigs can represent many different types of forage.  A simple hair jig looks more like a fish or larvae.  A larger hair jig with a bigger pork trailer can represent a mouse or small animal.  While rubber skirted jigs look more like crawfish.  Silicone skirted jigs can represent both fish and crawfish depending on color.  Let’s start with "Hair" jigs.  These are the oldest type and are super effective in clear water or when there is little cover.  The hair moves with the water action (waves) and applied action looks more alive (in my opinion) then do silicone skirts.  They are excellent in colder water situations.  Rubber and silicone skirted jigs and all the possible colors can be customized to match the forage in your area. I always custom blend my skirts to closely match the crawfish or forage fish in the lake I am fishing.  Example.  The crawfish in my home lake are light brown and have black and light orange patches.  So I start with a pumpkin colored skirt and add a strain or two of black and orange.  Then I put on a brown or orange trailer.  On the orange trailer I use a black permanent marker and dye it so that it looks mostly black with orange spots. The jig can be presented in a lot of ways to match the conditions you are fishing.  A light jig (1/8, 3/16, 1/4 ounce) with a #101 can represent a small fish or crawfish.  On clam water this setup will have a medium fall rate (about 1 to 1.5 seconds per foot)  The same jig with a #11 pork trailer will fall much slower (1.5 to 2 second a foot), and look like a bigger fish or crawfish.  The same jig with a #1 trailer will fall real slow (2 to 3 seconds a foot) and an even larger fish and crawfish. Brian: When jig hits the water does it really matter if it’s quiet or not?" Reply: Most of the time you want to flip or pitch this type of lure into the water as quietly as possible.  But there are times when splashing the jig can be beneficial (like in muddy water or at night or when casting the jig on top of thick matted weeds). Hopes this helps. — Craig Baugher

Response:

I’d like to hear more. We routinely fish with 1oz. jigs in less than 3′ of water.   I’ll explain later if anyone’s interested.

What your car says about you – Ford Crown Victoria – "I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them" — Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Mobees, also some ‘good’ reading on the subject here: http://www.bassdozer.com/articles.shtml What your car says about you – Ford Crown Victoria – "I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them" — Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

 My "light" duty setup is a Quantum flipping rod 7′6" with 50lb. Oldham’s braid.  My "heavy" setup is a Waterloo double wall tuna blank-8′ with 80lb. Oldham’s braid. 50lb. Oldham’s braid. 80lb. Oldham’s braid.

I have caught 100+ pound sharks..the meanest fighter pound for pound.. on 20 lb test around very sharp coral heads..much sharper than logs…I understand needing heavy equipment but heavy in the bass world is 20lb test… if you need 50 or 80 pound test for a 10 pound bass what would you use for a real fish? When i am land locked as i am now i use 6 or maybe 12 pound test and have done very well with bass.  It seems funny to me that you need heavier test than i have ever fished in the ocean with to catch bass… maybe you could email me and explain to me why the overly strong choice in test line?  The name , tuna blank, of your "Heavy" setup should have been the first clue that you are not correctly set-up for bassin’ Dave

Response:

I fish a jig and pig just like a plastic worm. I use a 3/16 or 1/4 oz black and blue jig (Strike King Bitsy Bug) with a Zoom swimmin chunk Sapphire blue trailer. Right now I am using 14lb hi vis mono, I have ordered 30lb test Berkley Fireline in the hi vis green. I too feel it’s very important to watch the line when fishing jig and pig and worms. I am trying the Fireline in hope of improving my hook set and maybe it will allow me to feel the bass bite. Once you catch a few bass on the jig and pig you become obsessed with it. Anybody want to buy 1200 powerworms. Also I remove about half of the fibers in the weed guard, I think it allows a better hook set. I have caught at least 12 bass on the swimmin chunk I have on now and it still looks good so you can one advantage it has over the worm. Stick with it you will get hooked

Response:

Mobees drank two pots of coffee, kicked the dogs off the porch, ran the kids off on the yard, sat down and decided the world needed to hear: When should i use differnet colors or weights of jigs? do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all?

Ok, I’m going to get probably ripped for what I’m going to tell you, that’s fine, if they’ve caught half the fish we’ve caught on a jig, I’ll listen to ‘em. There are no "rules"  I’ll tell you that right now. The only rule is figure out what’s working right now. Don’t ever be afraid to experiment with colors, weight, trailers, and combinations. Ok, I’ll give you a few things I’ve learned, and discovered. 1. Use a heavier jig when the water’s hot.  When the water’s warm, the metabolism of the bass is way high, so you need to match the speed of you lure to the fish’s aggressiveness.  We routinely fish with 1oz. jigs in less than 3′ of water.   I’ll explain later if anyone’s interested. 2.  Cast it into the MIDDLE of the cover.  That’s where they live. 3.  Don’t be afraid to experiment.  We use solid white, purple, chartuese, and other goofy looking colors.  Try lot’s of different trailers.  We’ll use an entire 8" lizard on the back of a jig with much success.   4.  Don’t be afraid to vary your presentation.  Somedays they just aren’t on the bottom.  Someday’s they want it fast, someday’s slow, they’ll tell you when you figure it out. 5.  Be a sniper.  You need to learn to put that jig into places you wouldn’t send your rabbit hound.   6.  Upgrade your equipment.  This isn’t a slam on your new rod&reel pards, but that’s what I’d fish an open rock bank with.  My "light" duty setup is a Quantum flipping rod 7′6" with 50lb. Oldham’s braid.  My "heavy" setup is a Waterloo double wall tuna blank-8′ with 80lb. Oldham’s braid. 7. Upgrade your jigs.  Anything you buy with an American made hook is second rate.  Anyone who’s ever used one would agree the Oldham’s eye-max is the finest jig made.  512-847-9202   There is much more to fishing the most effective quality bass lure made, and we’ll continue this discussion if anyone’s interested. Pat Goff

Response:

Brain, I will try to answer some of your questions, and I’m sure there are other here that can tell you more than I can.  You will find that certain presentations produce more bass than others.  It depends on the weather, water conditions, mood of the fish (which is affected by everything), and also on what you feel comfortable with. Often times bass will hit a jig/pig combo on the initial drop.  These are the blessed times when you can ease along a bank, pitching or flipping a jig to cover and set the hook as soon as the bait starts to fall.  But they don’t always do that.  Sometimes they will not touch it jig if you are moving it.  They prefer for it to just lay there wriggling on its own, then the move in a pick it up.  You just have to try it one way and if it doesn’t work change.  I have noticed that on high pressure days, or in extremely clear water, the bass seem to prefer that the lure remain motionless, at least as far as your input to the motion is concerned.  I have also done well in these conditions by using a heavy jig head and getting the reaction strikes as the bait rips past them on the way to the bottom.  In murky water or flowing water bass seem to like to hit the jig on the initial fall. But, as I mentioned before… sometimes it’s just trial and error. Some things that you should follow as basic rules will help you increase your catch on jig and pigs combos.  Always watch your line.  Try to allow your bait to fall straight down on a simi-tight line; not so tight that the lure can’t fall straight down, but tight enough to remain in contact with the lure as it falls.  Always watch your line.  Place the lure into the water as quietly as possible, especially in shallow or clear water conditions.  Always watch your line.  Put you lure as close to cover as possible.  The clearer the water or higher the barometric pressure, the closer and deeper in cover they tend to be.  Set the hook fast upon detecting a strike, whether by site or feel, don’t pause at all like you might do with soft plastic lures.  And, always watch your line. I don’t know if this gives you a detailed enough outline of how to fish the jig-n-pig, but just as with any other lure, it’s always up to the bass to dictate how they will bite, we just have to figure it out. Good luck and always watch your line, Bassman Duane Knight

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everybody. I wanted to figure out how to fish jig n a pig style w/ 20 pound test on a heavier pole w/ a baitcasting reel. So i went out and bought a Shimano Curado and a lightning rod med/heavy 6′6" rod. thru on a 3/8 jig w/ a matching pork trailer…great. that’s the easy part….Now, I’m practicing how to flip it different ways etc…Okay…thats about as far as i got.    This is what i understand to date. You try to get it in the water next to or right in the cover making the least amount of noise you can. right? Sounds easy enough.     Here’s a scenario of a river we fish often. The edges of the river have thick weeds and brush back about 25 feet all seeming to be in 1-3 feet of water. NOW do i throw the jig into the brush? how far back do i throw it? OR do i just try to work the edges? I know i should just get out there and use it,use it and use it some more, but i like to understand things, before i go out and fish. When should i use differnet colors or weights of jigs? do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all? Does the same things apply here the same as in all other tackle? Or is it just a convoy mission to get in there, scare the crap out of the fish, so he’ll bite and then bring him on home??? I need help w/ this. If somebody could be kind enough to explain the point of Jig-n-a pig. It would make me(i bet a bunch of other people too!) understand it better. When jig hits the water does it really matter if it’s quiet or not? So many ?’s…..Anyway thanks in advance for any info you can provide me! Brian

Response:

Hi everybody. I wanted to figure out how to fish jig n a pig style w/ 20 pound test on a heavier pole w/ a baitcasting reel. So i went out and bought a Shimano Curado and a lightning rod med/heavy 6′6" rod. thru on a 3/8 jig w/ a matching pork trailer…great. that’s the easy part….Now, I’m practicing how to flip it different ways etc…Okay…thats about as far as i got.    This is what i understand to date. You try to get it in the water next to or right in the cover making the least amount of noise you can. right? Sounds easy enough.     Here’s a scenario of a river we fish often. The edges of the river have thick weeds and brush back about 25 feet all seeming to be in 1-3 feet of water. NOW do i throw the jig into the brush? how far back do i throw it? OR do i just try to work the edges? I know i should just get out there and use it,use it and use it some more, but i like to understand things, before i go out and fish. When should i use differnet colors or weights of jigs? do you flip it in there, let it sit for a while? bounce it off the bottom? swim it? Or are there any rules at all? Does the same things apply here the same as in all other tackle? Or is it just a convoy mission to get in there, scare the crap out of the fish, so he’ll bite and then bring him on home??? I need help w/ this. If somebody could be kind enough to explain the point of Jig-n-a pig. It would make me(i bet a bunch of other people too!) understand it better. When jig hits the water does it really matter if it’s quiet or not? So many ?’s…..Anyway thanks in advance for any info you can provide me! Brian

Response:

Question:

Hi all, lost the ‘alt.flyfishing’ newsgroup and when trying to add it again, it was removed again. Is it still there or has it been terminated for lack of interest? Bert

Response:

I guess it t-boned.. (to t-bone: to disappear abruptly, only to reappear even more unexpectantly) OBROFF: I’ll be leaving on holidays in only tree days from now, staying almost on the banks of the biggest reservoir in the Netherlands (Veerse Meer). Any tips on patterns still welcome.. Hi all, lost the ‘alt.flyfishing’ newsgroup and when trying to add it again, it was removed again. Is it still there or has it been terminated for lack of interest? Bert

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

Hi Herman something Have a good time my friend Cheers Hans – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess it t-boned.. (to t-bone: to disappear abruptly, only to reappear even more unexpectantly) OBROFF: I’ll be leaving on holidays in only tree days from now, staying almost on the banks of the biggest reservoir in the Netherlands (Veerse Meer). Any tips on patterns still welcome.. Hi all, lost the ‘alt.flyfishing’ newsgroup and when trying to add it again, it was removed again. Is it still there or has it been terminated for lack of interest? Bert — Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

It’s there and it’s profound as hell. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

It’s there and it’s profound as hell. Silence *is* profound I suppose<g.

If a newsgroup fails and there’s no one there to hear it does it still make a sound? …you bet it would….if it landed on top of your head, your head, if it landed on top of your heeeeaaaaadddd… Sorry, violent cartoon flashbacks, disregard,      - Ken — "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the  initiative in creating the Internet."  - Al Gore

Response:

No, no, you can’t do that! The verb t-bone has already been defined…

Yep. From the _Chicago Tribune_ Thursday July 8, 1999. Quotables "It takes intense concentration just to stay in my lane. And when you’re covering a mile every five seconds, you just hope that security has cleared the course so you don’t T-bone some Winnebago that’s out there." -Race driver Craig Breedlove who has set five world land-speed records and plans to try to break the 760 m.p.h. sound barrier in September in Nevada’s Black Rock Desert. Sorry, Tim, but the verb T-bone hasn’t made the OED… yet. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

It’s there and it’s profound as hell.

LOL! Good one, TBone. In the last 30 days there have been 63 threads started on alt.flyfishing. 48 of them never received even a single response from anyone (probably because most of them are advertisements. Leaving 15 threads with actual followups – mostly 1 or 2, a few between 3 and  5. Mostly pure beginner stuff, mostly going unanswered. I didn’t count the cross-posted troll from the alt.romath group with the 410 followups… It took me a while to find the "profound as hell" thread, but here it is in case anyone else missed it. Not easy. Not easy.

But methaphoric as hell. "Methaphoric"?  Whoa – you’re right, TBone. That’s profound as hell… /daytripper (killing time waiting for a compile to finish)

Response:

[snipped] Gov. Johnson was quoted as saying something close to (as close as my memory can get me), "I was skiing down the slope, and the next thing I knew, I got t-boned by this kid". Anyways, this definition probably has its uses on ROFF as well

Given TBone’s predilection for gay references, the verb form must only apply when struck from behind. /daytripper ;^)

Response:

Question:

Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

Response:

got skunked. I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

Love you Bill!!!!! You probably have more experience with both guides and lawyers, but I find it easies to find a competeant guide than it is a competeant lawyer. Care to comment? Big Dale

Response:

LL Bean still has their warranty policy in place… Lifetime satisfaction guarantee If you break the rod on a trip, they’ll overnight fedex a replacement anwhere in the country.  You return the broken rod at your convenience. All free. Michael – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, well, well, So what do we flyfishers think of the new (and old) warranties? Orvis                25-years Loomis             Lifetime $45 exchange for new rod Scott                $20 Lifetime Winston           $25 Lifetime Sage               $20 Lifetime Etc. etc. etc. Just wondering, Paul

Response:

You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault.  I remember that I took care of my rod, because if I broke it, I was  out X number of dollars.  I remember a time when you were responsible for your actions.  I remember when I didn’t do well in school, it was my fault, not society.  I remember breaking my arm in junior high school and not suing the school.  I remember a time when if you broke something, you stood up like a man and admitted it…. It’s amazing how rods are now "accidently" broken as opposed to how many were broken BEFORE the new warranties. Just my 2 cents. Flyguy Bill Kiene wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ha Paul, I want my money back. I bought a new outfit and went out and got skunked. I am going to take all these manufacturers to court. I think the government should step in and do something about this. You read the adds, buy a new fly fishing outfit, go done to the river and get skunked. Well, it’s not my fault, it’s my parents. They didn’t send me to an Orvis School when I was young. They made me fish with worms too. I think I will take them to court too. I think I will take the government to court too because they let me ’slip through the cracks’. I guess I am just a loser, but it’s not my fault. I think I will go have a tuna fish sand witch and watch David Letterman. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop www.kiene.com

Response:

You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault

Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod. Some people probably won’t buy a super-premium rod because they’re afraid they’ll break it.  So by offering a no-fault warranty, the manufacturers get more folks to buy the highly profitable rods.  Really, it makes a lot of sense given the disparity between direct and retail costs. Especially now that the rod vendors are charging for warranty repairs (and offsetting most of the cost anyway), they’re laughing all the way to the bank. Michael

Response:

You know, I remember the old days when if I screwed up, it was my fault Geez, let’s not have too much pity for the poor manufacturers… The fly rod that you and I pay $650 for in the store, probably costs the manufacturer $50 in direct materials and labor.  And it makes the vendor probably 3x to 4x the profit per rod as a $200 rod.

that very possibly true – check out George Gherke’s costing for his Bastard Rod – the fitting alone exceed $50. but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit. For most products of this nature the mark up on the rod( the difference between the retail price and the wholessale price the retailer pays) is about 1/3 of the price you pay. So for a $650 rod the manufacturer may gets $425 in revenue. Ralph H

Response:

but, don’t forget it the manufacturer has to pay for a lot of other things beside direct material and labour. Anyone whose worked in a manufacturing environment can tell you overheads are very often more than direct manufacturing costs. Don’t forget as well that everyone along the way – the manufacturer, the distributor and the retailer all have to make some sort of profit.

Absolutely true, but it’s also my point. You can make the argument that it’s reasonable for a fly mfg. to charge $650 for a rod.  (Hey, no one’s forcing me to buy the damn thing, and the market also supplies pretty good rods at every price point from $19 up).  Lord knows, a lot of vendors with fancy names and fancy rods are only marginally profitable.  But the time to make the profit is on the initial sale and, hopefully,  the next sale a few years later from a satisfied customer upgrading to the same vendor’s latest and greatest. Repairs are a time when the vendor can make or break customer loyalty.  It’s simply not worth getting into a debate with the customer about who’s fault it was.  <<Was the ferrule defective, or had it loosened up on me while fishing?  Is it the fault of the vendor’s poor tolerances that the rod loosened up and then broke at the ferrule, or my sloppy fishing habits, for not checking them every once in a while?  It just makes good sense for the manufacturer to fix a rod at it’s marginal cost, and not mark it up.  Even if it truly is the customer’s fault.  Hey, we all make mistakes. Then you can argue whether, if the marginal cost is so low (say $20 for a section of a $600 rod), does it make sense to bill for it, or do you get even more than $20 worth of loyalty and repeat business to do it for "free". I don’t see this as a biggee…it’s close enough to $0 that I wouldn’t care if I felt it were my fault.  Of course, if it were truly a mfg. flaw, I’d be pissed off about paying even $20, much less $50. Michael

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing newsgroup: A guy went into the water in Elliott Bay as part of a [simulated rescue situation]. He was wearing a survival suit (the water *is* cold up here), and made the mistake of diving in head-first.  All the trapped air in the suit collected at the highest point once he was in the water, which was the feet.  He was not able to get himself rightside-up, and drowned before the boat could get back to him. I’ve never seen a survival suit except in pictures, but I understand it to be something like a dry suit with insulation and flotation built-in. I guess there *IS* a reason why I ritualisticly squeeze all the air out of my suit before each time I get into my boat.

Doesn’t sound like much of a problem for paddlers’ dry suits to me.  At least decked boaters are wearing a spray skirt which ought to be tight enough to keep air passing that quickly between upper body and legs. And everyone I’ve seen putting on dry suits burps as much air out as possible simply for the reason of making them more flexible.

Response:

: Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing : newsgroup: I should have mentioned:  these survival suits (when I owned one) did not have neck gaskets; the only way I remember that air/water could get in our out was from around the neck.

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(KCKaddis) writes: sounds like an urban legend to me … you’d think that a suit designed to save

your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos Actually, this is a common problem with dry suits. SCUBA divers often wear additional weight on their ankles to prevent a feet up uncontrolled ascent. … by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders…

the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; ) More likely, it is a case of pulling your chest up toward your feet. Still, a dry suit has air stored up to the neck with a gasket that is intended to be leakproof. This is a whole lot different than a pair of waders which allow air to freely flow in/out. SCUBA suits have valves to allow air to escape at roughly chest level, but survival suits or the dry suits used when paddling do not. This should not be a life threatening situation with proper training, but few know of this risk and even fewer practice how to escape from this situation (the logical escape procedure would involve raising the body toward the surface in as flat a plane as possible, thus allowing the  the air to redistribute evenly in the suit – not having the opportunity to practice this, I’d imagine strong swimming/sculling skills and good breath control would come in handy). Whether or not this particular even is an urban legend is moot. There is a potential when wearing a dry suit for the air to redistribute in this fashion as the suit does nothing to prohibit the motion of air. Thus, bleeding the things before entering the water is important. Rick

Response:

Actually, [air trapped in legs, floating you head down] is a common problem with dry suits. SCUBA divers often wear additional weight on their ankles to prevent a feet up uncontrolled ascent. This should not be a life threatening situation with proper training, but few know of this risk and even fewer practice how to escape from this situation (the logical escape procedure would involve raising the body toward the surface in as flat a plane as possible, thus allowing the  the air to redistribute evenly in the suit – not having the opportunity to practice this, I’d imagine strong swimming/sculling skills and good breath control would come in handy).

I’ll be helping to run a pool session this winter, and I plan to try it.  My dry suit has ankle gaskets, so the easiest escape for me probably will be to reach for my ankles and burp them.  Who knows, maybe the pressure inside the suit will be enough for it to happen without my help.  If that’s the case, then I’ll try to borrow a suit that has booties built in, or I’ll try taping my ankle seals to make them tighter.

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KCKaddis writes :: << sounds like an urban legend to me I remember when dry suits first appeared in the UK (early 70’s) – they were made out of latex rubber and actually worked pretty well while they lasted (which wasn’t long). They had a roll waist attachment and glued on booties. I would wear mine snorkeling and if I didn’t burp the suit my flippers would pop off my feet whenever I dove (my feet would turn into balloons). I don’t remember any problems getting stuck upside down though. The clear latex suits (mine was pink) were the worst looking things in the world – looked like they should have come out of a giant dispensing machine in the public toilets<g Mick Evans

Response:

        I did run across one survival rescue suit in a catalog a coupla years ago that had rings embedded in the legs so that they wouldn’t expand if air rushed there in an upside down position.  Blurb suggested that indeed it had been a problem.   KCKaddis wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … you’d think that a suit designed to save your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos… by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders… the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; )

Response:

: Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing : newsgroup: … I owned one of these, though never tried it out in the water, when I fished in Bristol Bay.  I no longer remember the details about them except that the suits are like toddler’s pajamas, and are bulky and awkward to get in and out of.   I find the story to be quite credible.

Response:

Sportsmansguide actually has some surplus survival suits   for $200. They have huge airbladder on the back, apparently to prevent this sort of mishap. I once read of a similar fatal accident involving a fat woman with an inner tube around her waist.

Response:

sounds like an urban legend to me … you’d think that a suit designed to save your life would have floatation in the right spot to float you head up if unconciuos… by the by , while fly fishing , I learned of the same prob with waders… the solution , if you find yerself in this fix , is to pull your knees to your chest & burp the air out… or stay dry  ; )

Response:

Here’s something to think about.  I saw this message on a sailing newsgroup: A guy went into the water in Elliott Bay as part of a [simulated rescue situation]. He was wearing a survival suit (the water *is* cold up here), and made the mistake of diving in head-first.  All the trapped air in the suit collected at the highest point once he was in the water, which was the feet.  He was not able to get himself rightside-up, and drowned before the boat could get back to him.

I’ve never seen a survival suit except in pictures, but I understand it to be something like a dry suit with insulation and flotation built-in. I guess there *IS* a reason why I ritualisticly squeeze all the air out of my suit before each time I get into my boat.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are on a beautiful mountain stream, where a big, wily wild brown is at peace, resting and content at sipping the invertebrate that comes his way. His location is in a undercut bank with overhanging rhododendron within two feet of the water surface. As you get over the shakes, you plan for minutes (feels like hours) on how to get that sidearm/roll/whatchamacallit humphreyesque cast ahead of the fish and under the rhodo into that perfect drift. After you stealthily move into optimum position you gingerly cast with confidence and unleash your favorite fly. As it is magically approaching that perfect spot, a previously unnoticed dead rhodo twig rears its ugly, graying stub and snatches your fly within inches of miraculous touchdown. As you are gently tugging on your line in the impractical hope that it may softly dislodge, the trees sway (laugh) in the wind and the brown rockets upstream in a big swoosh chucklin’ all the way.

As they say in NE Tennessee ….’been thar done that’ — Good Fishing and Tight Lines             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are on a beautiful mountain stream, where a big, wily wild brown is at peace, resting and content at sipping the invertebrate that comes his way. His location is in a undercut bank with overhanging rhododendron within two feet of the water surface. As you get over the shakes, you plan for minutes (feels like hours) on how to get that sidearm/roll/whatchamacallit humphreyesque cast ahead of the fish and under the rhodo into that perfect drift. After you stealthily move into optimum position you gingerly cast with confidence and unleash your favorite fly. As it is magically approaching that perfect spot, a previously unnoticed dead rhodo twig rears its ugly, graying stub and snatches your fly within inches of miraculous touchdown. As you are gently tugging on your line in the impractical hope that it may softly dislodge, the trees sway (laugh) in the wind and the brown rockets upstream in a big swoosh chucklin’ all the way. As they say in NE Tennessee ….’been thar done that’ — Good Fishing and Tight Lines             | /             |/   (         /|    –     / | C. Michael Bullard

– yup, too many times…. btw, what part of TN you from? –Walt

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0]

: sounds about right. only a couple of trees? I’ve been thinking of just : throwing a few beat-up flies to the wind before my first cast to : appease …. : 4. any combo of the above  (depending upon their moods)     : : Watch out when they’re really ticked, like when you volunteer a handful : of used tatters.  They’ve been known to take rod tips.  Ouch! : : BobW : :         : Acute observations Bob. In addition I might add: : You are on a beautiful mountain stream, where a big, wily wild brown is : at peace, resting and content at sipping the invertebrate that comes his …. : dislodge, the trees sway (laugh) in the wind and the brown rockets : upstream in a big swoosh chucklin’ all the way. : The tree gods are smiling, for they are appeased. : –Walt I also found it doesn’t pay to try to get one back even in you can. One occasion I was able to bend down the branch in question and unhook it. Then I let go of the branch, and WHAM, this unnoticed treble hook offering from a bait chucker lodged itself in the palm of my hand. Needless to say it was not debarbed. OUCH! Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

I also found it doesn’t pay to try to get one back even in you can. One occasion I was able to bend down the branch in question and unhook it. Then I let go of the branch, and WHAM, this unnoticed treble hook offering from a bait chucker lodged itself in the palm of my hand. Needless to say it was not debarbed. OUCH!

Being snagged is almost as bad is bending a branch to retrieve a fly to a point where the spring loaded tension  causes one to lose their balance….this usually happens (at least to me) at a point where the water is much deeper then the tops of my waders…..bummer — Good Fishing and Tight Lines             | /              |/    (         /|     —     / | C. Michael Bullard

Response:

Mike laments: <snip Then I let go of the branch, and WHAM, this unnoticed treble hook offering from a bait chucker lodged itself in the palm of my hand. Needless to say it was not debarbed. OUCH!

Bonus!!!! Two for the price of one. Patrick

Response:

I also found it doesn’t pay to try to get one back even in you can. One occasion I was able to bend down the branch in question and unhook it. Then I let go of the branch, and WHAM, this unnoticed treble hook offering from a bait chucker lodged itself in the palm of my hand. Needless to say it was not debarbed. OUCH!

Lucky you weren’t in Germany Mike, the next angler to come along would have been morally obliged to ram a knife through your head ;^) — Stuart Nuttall (Replace ‘nospam’ with ‘warboyz’ to reply by e-mail)

Response:

Stuart Nuttall hilariously writes:

<<Lucky you weren’t in Germany Mike, the next angler to come along would have been morally obliged to ram a knife through your head ;^) — LOL.  You are *baaaaaaad*, Stuart.  Bad, bad, bad.  d;0) Dave L.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also found it doesn’t pay to try to get one back even in you can. One occasion I was able to bend down the branch in question and unhook it. Then I let go of the branch, and WHAM, this unnoticed treble hook offering from a bait chucker lodged itself in the palm of my hand. Needless to say it was not debarbed. OUCH! Lucky you weren’t in Germany Mike, the next angler to come along would have been morally obliged to ram a knife through your head ;^) — Stuart Nuttall

Nicely put, Stuart.  I’m still laughing! Bob Scott

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I also found it doesn’t pay to try to get one back even in you can. One occasion I was able to bend down the branch in question and unhook it. Then I let go of the branch, and WHAM, this unnoticed treble hook offering from a bait chucker lodged itself in the palm of my hand. Needless to say it was not debarbed. OUCH! Lucky you weren’t in Germany Mike, the next angler to come along would have been morally obliged to ram a knife through your head ;^) — Stuart Nuttall (Replace ‘nospam’ with ‘warboyz’ to reply by e-mail)

Saturday night, 10 pm on the east coast of the US, wondering why I’m reading ROFF instead of doing what normal people do on a Saturday night, and I suddently get to laugh my ass off.  Thanks Stuart. Mark Faulkner

Response:

Once I lost I fly in extremely high water and could not get to the tree to retieve it.  The following spring the Tree God blessed me and I found the exact same tree and retrieved the fly…   can’t figure out why I wasn’t blessed with fish… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sounds about right. only a couple of trees? I’ve been thinking of just throwing a few beat-up flies to the wind before my first cast to appease the tree gods so that I can fish w/o losing tippett. But I’m sure they will ignore my paltry offerings and go for the real thing. In my experience the tree-gods only accept offerings consisting of either: 1. the last copy of the only fly that works 2. the one you just paid 2 bucks for and has yet to see water 3. the next one you just paid 2 bucks for & still hasn’t seen water and is attached to the last 2 feet of 6X in the county. 4. any combo of the above  (depending upon their moods) Watch out when they’re really ticked, like when you volunteer a handful of used tatters.  They’ve been known to take rod tips.  Ouch! BobW Acute observations Bob. In addition I might add: You are on a beautiful mountain stream, where a big, wily wild brown is at peace, resting and content at sipping the invertebrate that comes his way. His location is in a undercut bank with overhanging rhododendron within two feet of the water surface. As you get over the shakes, you plan for minutes (feels like hours) on how to get that sidearm/roll/whatchamacallit humphreyesque cast ahead of the fish and under the rhodo into that perfect drift. After you stealthily move into optimum position you gingerly cast with confidence and unleash your favorite fly. As it is magically approaching that perfect spot, a previously unnoticed dead rhodo twig rears its ugly, graying stub and snatches your fly within inches of miraculous touchdown. As you are gently tugging on your line in the impractical hope that it may softly dislodge, the trees sway (laugh) in the wind and the brown rockets upstream in a big swoosh chucklin’ all the way. The tree gods are smiling, for they are appeased. –Walt — The Blue Ridge Book Gallery | We are located 8 miles south of Boone on Rt. 1 Box 975-23            | Hiway 105 in Foscoe in the heart of the Banner Elk, NC 28604        | beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains. Please (704) 963-5001              | visit us when you’re in the area.                            |  Thanks….Marie & Walter Winter http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter/         also on Interloc…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sounds about right. only a couple of trees? I’ve been thinking of just throwing a few beat-up flies to the wind before my first cast to appease the tree gods so that I can fish w/o losing tippett. But I’m sure they will ignore my paltry offerings and go for the real thing. In my experience the tree-gods only accept offerings consisting of either: 1. the last copy of the only fly that works   2. the one you just paid 2 bucks for and has yet to see water 3. the next one you just paid 2 bucks for & still hasn’t seen water and is attached to the last 2 feet of 6X in the county. 4. any combo of the above  (depending upon their moods)     Watch out when they’re really ticked, like when you volunteer a handful of used tatters.  They’ve been known to take rod tips.  Ouch! BobW

Acute observations Bob. In addition I might add: You are on a beautiful mountain stream, where a big, wily wild brown is at peace, resting and content at sipping the invertebrate that comes his way. His location is in a undercut bank with overhanging rhododendron within two feet of the water surface. As you get over the shakes, you plan for minutes (feels like hours) on how to get that sidearm/roll/whatchamacallit humphreyesque cast ahead of the fish and under the rhodo into that perfect drift. After you stealthily move into optimum position you gingerly cast with confidence and unleash your favorite fly. As it is magically approaching that perfect spot, a previously unnoticed dead rhodo twig rears its ugly, graying stub and snatches your fly within inches of miraculous touchdown. As you are gently tugging on your line in the impractical hope that it may softly dislodge, the trees sway (laugh) in the wind and the brown rockets upstream in a big swoosh chucklin’ all the way. The tree gods are smiling, for they are appeased. –Walt — The Blue Ridge Book Gallery | We are located 8 miles south of Boone on Rt. 1 Box 975-23            | Hiway 105 in Foscoe in the heart of the Banner Elk, NC 28604        | beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains. Please (704) 963-5001              | visit us when you’re in the area.                             |  Thanks….Marie & Walter Winter http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter/         also on Interloc…

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Question:

You may want to try some attractant, it may or may not actually attract them but the confidence boost can do wonders.  Try some beef liver cut into strips, it stays on the hook better.  If you own a pair of binoculars use them.  Most of all have fun and don’t give up! I promise fish will come, I saw (on TV) a trout hit a trolled plastic Batman action figure and your using better bait then that. Chris www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/4724/

Last summer my kids used gummy worms at my father-in-law’s farm pond, and caught a couple of catfish and a largemouth.  It was a very hot day though, and before long, the rest of the worms had melted into one big glob  :-(

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.ONE LAST THING …SCENT OF YOUR HANDS HEAVY SMOKING,GREASE ,OIL WILL DETER A FISH FROM BITING,ANY LURE MOST OF THE TIME .. Just to add to the last angler’s comments…….Never wash your hands with soap…..If you have to, use some Berkeley Erase and put on your hands. Good fishin’ Garry

You may want to try some attractant, it may or may not actually attract them but the confidence boost can do wonders.  Try some beef liver cut into strips, it stays on the hook better.  If you own a pair of binoculars use them.  Most of all have fun and don’t give up! I promise fish will come, I saw (on TV) a trout hit a trolled plastic Batman action figure and your using better bait then that. Chris www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/4724/

Response:

Try livebait, if you don’t catch something soon, change body of water; experiment!… Take your time and observe what’s going on around you  [and definitely, READ].

Response:

Some basic rules :  Use purple or Grape colored 6in. plastic Throw in rock piles & heavy brush near shoreline off the main channel move plastics about 6_12 in. at a time in slow or fast jerks. Always pause for a moment between jerks. thats when you watch the line for twitches . At this point set the hook as hard as you can.                  try this.

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 T I M E…YOU JUST HAVE TO PUT YOUR TIME IN…..AND AS FAR AS YOUR NEIGHBORS GO…TELL THEM YOUR A CATCH AND RELEASE TYPE OF GUY…CONSERVATION…..YOU WANT YOUR CHILDRENS CHILDREN TO CATCH FISH ON CATCHING SOME FISH ,START FISHING AROUND OTHER PEOPLE,WATCH WHAT THEY DO!!!!!!! HOW THEY CAST,BAIT ,RIG THEIR POLES….TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE LURE,SLOW,FAST,BROKEN RETREIVE) DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS…GO TO A COUNTY LIBRARY…READ….ORRENT A MOVIE…THEY SHOULD HAVE INSTRUCTIONAL VIDEO’S ON ALL TYPES OF FISHING….ONE LAST THING …SCENT OF YOUR HANDS HEAVY SMOKING,GREASE ,OIL WILL DETER A FISH FROM BITING,ANY LURE MOST OF THE TIME …I HOPE THAT WILL BRIGHTEN YOUR

Response:

Suggest you try Lafayette Reservoir during the winter months for trout.  Use four pound test, with a small slip sinker, that ends at a snap swivel; a leader of 18" to 24" with a snap swivel on one side and a size 14 or 16 gold treble hook on the other; baited with rainbow, flourescent orange, yellow or green power bait.  Take a row boat to the East Cove in the morning before the sun hits the water.  Cast and let it settle to the bottom – wait.  This is a great way to catch stockers up to 5 lbs.   It is what I usually do when the Sierra is in a cold freeze until the rivers are open for flyfishing.  Wear WARM CLOTHES.  Tight lines. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i love to fish. the problem is, i don’t know how. i usally fish the stocked lakes here in the san francisco-east bay because it’s the only type of fishing that my work schedule will allow me to do.i fish for bass, trout,and catfish.i use a bigger seperate pole for the cats, using chicken livers, while throwing spinners and plastic worms for bass , and power bait for trout, but i never catch any fish. maybe i need rigging skills, i don’t know, but my nieghbors always see me leave with poles and come home with no fish, but it’s even more embarassing when i take some of the son’s of my wifes friends, (or even worse) my own 5 year old daughter who only likes to go when we catch fish.                                                              please help                                                                   cakeman300

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Response:

i love to fish. the problem is, i don’t know how. i usally fish the stocked lakes here in the san francisco-east bay because it’s the only type of fishing that my work schedule will allow me to do.i fish for bass, trout,and catfish.i use a bigger seperate pole for the cats, using chicken livers, while throwing spinners and plastic worms for bass , and power bait for trout, but i never catch any fish. maybe i need rigging skills, i don’t know, but my nieghbors always see me leave with poles and come home with no fish, but it’s even more embarassing when i take some of the son’s of my wifes friends, (or even worse) my own 5 year old daughter who only likes to go when we catch fish.                                                              please help                                                                   cakeman300

Response:

.ONE LAST THING …SCENT OF YOUR HANDS HEAVY SMOKING,GREASE ,OIL WILL DETER A FISH FROM BITING,ANY LURE MOST OF THE TIME ..

Just to add to the last angler’s comments…….Never wash your hands with soap…..If you have to, use some Berkeley Erase and put on your hands.  Good fishin’ Garry

Response:

I’d say Chris covered the best basics, and I’d like to add this cause it happened to me when I started fishing years ago. Do not,I repeat, do not sit around all day Saturdays watching Dance, Houston, Winkleman, Orlando, Lindner,etc , because you’ll wind up tossing 2oz.spinnerbaits, porko fanbelts, carolina rigs, pop-r’s and  rattletraps  tied to 50 lb spiderwire  on some big ass 7 foot pole. Your on a "shit" streak,so rig light line no bigger than 6lbs. for a while. Remember that plastic worms are still on record as catching more bass in more situations than any other lure including live worms. When you are absolutely sure you are fishing too slow, …. SLOW DOWN some more!  "Do sumpin" lures often do something all right .. they keep you casting and retrieving so much,a fish would need a rocketpac just to catch the ‘ damn things! hope this helps ..Saint                                            *Z*  ~ The Saint                                                        

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Question:

I am going fly fishing in the Sierras Oct. 1.  Has anyone been to Lake Crowley or Lake Sotcher recently.  If so can you let me know what you

Response:

 Just got back on the 29th and grasshoppers are the hot ticket!!! I am going back Oct 8th for 6 more days.                  K.S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going fly fishing in the Sierras Oct. 1.  Has anyone been to Lake Crowley or Lake Sotcher recently.  If so can you let me know what you

Response:

Just got back on the 29th and grasshoppers are the hot ticket!!! I am going back Oct 8th for 6 more days.                 K.S.

RE: grasshoppers, were you fishing them in the lake or up at the mouth of the Owens where it drops into the lake? FAS – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going fly fishing in the Sierras Oct. 1.  Has anyone been to Lake Crowley or Lake Sotcher recently.  If so can you let me know what you

Response:

Question:

To "a flyfisher" RE:  A Cross Between Benny Hill and Babe Winkleman  Starring Penthouse Pets of the Year.  Lots of Babes and Jokes.  The funniest video for fish camp to share with your fishing buddies.  A great fishing gift item.  Order Now for only $19.95   Call 1-800-347-4069  1-800-FISH 069

You wanna stick this in yur big ol’ ice chest and tote it on out ta da monster truck long wid yur beer, good buddy?!?  Then, perhaps you could locate a more appropriate newsgroup to address your wares. Lighten up flyfisher . . . you’re sounding too tight and setting to hard. bob vorel

Response:

 A Cross Between Benny Hill and Babe Winkleman  Starring Penthouse Pets of the Year.

You could call it "Balls Deep in Montana’s Rivers".

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:  A Cross Between Benny Hill and Babe Winkleman :  Starring Penthouse Pets of the Year. : You could call it "Balls Deep in Montana’s Rivers". Yeah, but that is a fluctuating level with temperature.  Ta-dump! — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

Response:

or you could call it a waste of money…why does anyone think we(men) need to see fabulous penthouse "babes" to be happy?…it’s like every beer comercial has to have a babe in it…or a guy wearing dockers….oh well….sex has been used to sell everything else…now fishing? craig

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I agree with Craig.  I though a lot of men went fishing to get away from women anyway!!

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I agree with Craig.  I though a lot of men went fishing to get away from women anyway!!

Some men actually prefer fishing with thier wives—go figure!!  Carolyn

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Some men actually prefer fishing with thier wives—go figure!!  Carolyn

Hey guess what?  Some women actually like to fish.    Tight lines, Lisa Cutter

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(Ralph Cutter) writes: Some men actually prefer fishing with thier wives—go figure!!  Carolyn Hey guess what?  Some women actually like to fish.   Tight lines, Lisa Cutter

I do, I do! Where’s your school of flyfishing??

Response:

 Carolyn Hey guess what?  Some women actually like to fish.   Tight lines, Lisa Cutter I do, I do! Where’s your school of flyfishing??

hi Carolyn    We’re in Truckee just north of Lake Tahoe, I’d love to send you a brochure send me your address.    Tight lines, Lisa

Response:

Award Winning Best New Adult Fishing Comedy Video 50 Minutes A Cross Between Benny Hill and Babe Winkleman Starring Penthouse Pets of the Year.  Lots of Babes and Jokes. The funniest video for fish camp to share with your fishing buddies. A great fishing gift item. Order Now for only $19.95   Call 1-800-347-4069  1-800-FISH 069

Response:

 Award Winning Best New Adult Fishing Comedy Video  50 Minutes  A Cross Between Benny Hill and Babe Winkleman  Starring Penthouse Pets of the Year.  Lots of Babes and Jokes.  The funniest video for fish camp to share with your fishing buddies.  A great fishing gift item.  Order Now for only $19.95   Call 1-800-347-4069  1-800-FISH 069

You wanna stick this in yur big ol’ ice chest and tote it on out ta da monster truck long wid yur beer, good buddy?!?  Then, perhaps you could locate a more appropriate newsgroup to address your wares.

Response:

Question:

: I’m planning a trip out to Calgary this summer to fish the Bow River. : Has anyone fished this river and can offer suggestions, tips, : comments about the river and the fishing?

A very difficult river to fish unless water-borne, and boating the river has its hazards. There are two large dams (Ghost River and Bearspaw) upstream of Calgary, and irrigation weir right in town, and another one downstream at Carseland. The big dams you will know about; the weirs (low-head dams) will catch you by surprise. Most float trips are between the weir downtown and Carseland weir. For a first time, use a guide — 3798 Woodland Drive     voice: (604) 368-9315 Trail, BC               data:  (604) 368-9341

Response:

Great Guide for the Bow = Tom Cutmore of "Must be Nice" drift Fishing Co. out of Alberta. Tom’s a great guy, excellent fisherman and knows the Bow.  Had a ’super’ two day trip with Tom there several years ago. PS- He’s not a relative !! LOL !

Response:

As for a guide, I don’t think you could get one that is better than Barry White.

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I’m going to have an opportunity to be in Calgary in mid June. What are the best areas to fish for a wading flyfisher with no guide? Interested in access, and what fly hatches I might encounter that time of year. Also,  how much does a short term Canadioa fishing license cost. Thanks in advance for any help. Dale Owens

Response:

        Mid-June may be a little early for the Bow. Depending on the snowpack on the mountains, there may still be a heavy runoff. The Bow is still fishable then, but with large, heavy weighted streamers and mynphs. If possible, delay to later in the month to be on the safe side.

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