Question:

Thomas, Thanks for the notice!  I live up in Portland so it’s not easy to get down there.  Does the Mid Willamette group have a website? Brad Before you buy.

Response:

Thanks for the notice!  I live up in Portland so it’s not easy to get down there.  Does the Mid Willamette group have a website?

The MWFF does not yet have a web site.  There is a new Oregon Council Federation of Fly Fishers web site that lists all the Oregon fly fishing clubs, and has links to those that do have web pages.      http://oregonfff.org Thomas Gilg

Response:

This December 12th, 2000, fly fishing writer, photographer and cartoonist Gene Trump will be giving a slide show to the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers (Corvallis, Oregon) on "Fly Fishing for Shad in Oregon".      First Presbyterian Church      8th and Monroe in Corvallis      Free – No Admission Cost Gene’s slide presentation will focus on shad fly-fishing in the State of Oregon. Often called "mini-tarpon", shad of 3-7 lbs. return by the 100,000+ in several of Oregon’s coastal streams, and by the millions in the Columbia River Basin. Largely unknown to many anglers, shad are easily caught by fly anglers and fight hard. Gene will reveal all he knows. Next month, the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers will hold their yearly banquet (1/6/2000), and will have Rick Hafele as the nights speaker. Rick has helped write many of the insect/hatch books that fly fishers in the west depend on. Banquet tickets are on sale at Wilson Motors in Corvallis and at the 12/12 meeting. Please call me if you have any questions – 541-715-2756 during the day, or 541-753-4276 during the evening. The Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers general meeting is the 2nd Tuesday of all months except January, July, August and September, when the banquet and outings dominate the schedule. All meetings and outings are open to the public – membership is NOT required. For those that can make it, my wife (Donna) and I will be giving a presentation to the Santiam Fly Casters in Salem Oregon on 12/14/2000.  Donna and I have a slide show "His and Hers Alaska" which contrasts 4 "grungy macho guy trips in rafts" against 1 "civilized real-food real-heat trip in cabins/houseboat" that the wife forced the guy into  Though my portion of the slide show ends with burning underware (low cost laundry), Donna is substantially meaner towards the male of the species, with her "selective femenism" theory (guys do all the hard junk women don’t choose to do). Thomas Gilg – President, Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers – VP Conservation, Oregon Council of the Federation of Fly Fishers

Response:

Tom, This sounds very ineresting, especially in light of the huge run of shad below Bonneville dam, near where I live.  Any chance of posting a transcript or highlights of the presentation? Thanks, Pat K – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This December 12th, 2000, fly fishing writer, photographer and cartoonist Gene Trump will be giving a slide show to the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers (Corvallis, Oregon) on "Fly Fishing for Shad in Oregon".      First Presbyterian Church      8th and Monroe in Corvallis      Free – No Admission Cost Gene’s slide presentation will focus on shad fly-fishing in the State of Oregon. Often called "mini-tarpon", shad of 3-7 lbs. return by the 100,000+ in several of Oregon’s coastal streams, and by the millions in the Columbia River Basin. Largely unknown to many anglers, shad are easily caught by fly anglers and fight hard. Gene will reveal all he knows. Next month, the Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers will hold their yearly banquet (1/6/2000), and will have Rick Hafele as the nights speaker. Rick has helped write many of the insect/hatch books that fly fishers in the west depend on. Banquet tickets are on sale at Wilson Motors in Corvallis and at the 12/12 meeting. Please call me if you have any questions – 541-715-2756 during the day, or 541-753-4276 during the evening. The Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers general meeting is the 2nd Tuesday of all months except January, July, August and September, when the banquet and outings dominate the schedule. All meetings and outings are open to the public – membership is NOT required. For those that can make it, my wife (Donna) and I will be giving a presentation to the Santiam Fly Casters in Salem Oregon on 12/14/2000.  Donna and I have a slide show "His and Hers Alaska" which contrasts 4 "grungy macho guy trips in rafts" against 1 "civilized real-food real-heat trip in cabins/houseboat" that the wife forced the guy into  Though my portion of the slide show ends with burning underware (low cost laundry), Donna is substantially meaner towards the male of the species, with her "selective femenism" theory (guys do all the hard junk women don’t choose to do). Thomas Gilg – President, Mid-Willamette Fly Fishers – VP Conservation, Oregon Council of the Federation of Fly Fishers

Before you buy.

Response:

Question:

Though I should be an expert at jig tieing …… Are there books on tieing jigs. Thier are many to be found for fly fishing (I just cant understand the appeal). John Jay Wirth Jay Wirth Renaissance Ink Member GPA

Response:

Though I should be an expert at jig tieing …… Are there books on tieing jigs. Thier are many to be found for fly fishing (I just cant understand the appeal).

        Jay-         You ever tie into a 2 lb. largemouth on a flyrod? AWESOME!!! And smallies are even better!         Bob– Robert E. Longshore

Response:

Question:

well if anybody knows the truth it’s you right Bill? right Bill? i mean you are an honest truthful operator right? there’s never been any hint of any other behaviour in your past right? there are no unpaid judgements against you right? no unfavorable court judgements or anything of that nature at all right? just wondering that’s all,i mean person has to be careful who they give their money to don’t they-right?

Response:

Try Baja!  - Catch Report April 22, 2000 La Paz/So. Cerralvo Is.

Question:

Hi, The subject of this thread is not just about wildlife – I’ve been entangled both in the river (the Waitahanui River, Taupo, NZ) and on the river bank, tripping and nearly breaking my rod let alone my head – though no doubt there are some who would classify me as "wildlife" too – an ex-wife or two et alia. Regards John — J. W. RICH 144 Gillies Ave, Epsom, Auckland, New Zealand ph/fax.  64-9-623-2975 website http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Jungle/3675/ or      http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~jw.rich     To purchase an E-copy of "Timber Geodesic Domes" by John Rich go to:         http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~jw.rich/promo.htm Some more pics of my domes are displayed at the following URL.         http://domegroup.org/domehomepics.html#johnrich

Response:

By the way is their any reason your name is the same as the BS1776  meaning British Standard 1776 and is the minimum standard that condoms have to attain, or is that just a coincidence ? TL MC

I wish it were so.  This shouting ninny was one load that needed to be tarped! WF

Response:

To deny that we break off leaders on rocks and on fish is pretty stupid and leaves me to question who the PETA members are, really.

Shwaggy?!?!  I deny therefore I am?  What kind of logic is that?  I haven’t been to the moon therefore I am an astronaut? Warren People for the Eating of Tasty Animals

Response:

"To fish is human, to eat the fish the only justifiable reason for the act". I assume you only have sex with your wife when she is ovulating. — Charlie…

Maybe if he had sex more often, he wouldn’t be woried about eating every slimy thing he catches. Chris Fleitman Running for cover.

Response:

THE LEADING CAUSE OF LIFE THREATENING WILDLIFE ENTANGLEMENT IN THE WORLD IS DISCARDED FISHING LINE ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR MARINE CONSERVATION IN WASHINGTON DC.

The above statement, even if it’s true, in no way supports your subject line, "DISCARDED FISHING LINE LEADING CAUSE OF WILDLIFE DEATH". You need a lesson in logic, but I doubt you’d get anything from it. bock Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

: To fish is human…to release divine. [deleted] I guess if you repeat it enough times it becomes truth?

Hold on Jon…I’m getting it now and WHart *is* right…. To fish is human… OK But: to release is an err… But: to err is human… But: Human was created in the [divine] image of God… Means: to err is divine… Therefore: to release is divine. But he could have just saved time by: To C&R fish is Human, to forgive divine. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Maybe if he had sex more often, he wouldn’t be woried about eating every slimy thing he catches.

What do you mean ? I get fucked here every day and I still like to eat fish. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Maybe if he had sex more often, he wouldn’t be woried about eating every slimy thing he catches. What do you mean ? I get fucked here every day and I still like to eat fish.

You slay me, Tim ;^) It’s clear that whatever had crawled up your ass a couple of months ago crawled out and left behind your latent sense of humour. Good show! /daytripper

Response:

[major snippage] Will you deny the lead accusation too OJ ? again, because it was posted on usenet, it must be true?  if it is, we should work on reducing our losses of lead sinkers, etc.  but just saying some scientist (who may not exist) says lead is killing lots of loons is imo suspect.  i certainly hope it’s not true, because unlike some posters i actually enjoy watching birds while i’m fishing… and loons are some of my favorites (puffins top the list though).

As I recall (this was discussed in this group roughly a year ago) the NH Fish and Wildlife folks recovered something like 16 dead loon carcasses over some period of time, and (again from memory) around two thirds of them were found to have perished from lead poisoning. The small lead sinkers used in fresh water fishing apparently fall in the size range of small stones that the loons swallow to facilitate digestion. Presumably, some degree of extrapolation of the sample size led these folks to their conclusion as applied to the entire population, and thus the small lead sinkers are to be banned. Seems reasonable to me, as non-toxic alternatives already exist at fair prices… A friend and I were fishing a favorite NH pond a few years ago and we watched Ma and Pa loon teaching their three kids how to fly. It was hilarious seeing the little fellows taking turns frantically scurrying along the water for fifty yards at a time trying to get airborne… /daytripper

Response:

THE LEADING CAUSE OF LIFE THREATENING WILDLIFE ENTANGLEMENT IN THE WORLD IS DISCARDED FISHING LINE ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR MARINE CONSERVATION IN WASHINGTON DC.

Response:

THE LEADING CAUSE OF LIFE THREATENING WILDLIFE ENTANGLEMENT IN THE WORLD IS DISCARDED FISHING LINE ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR MARINE CONSERVATION IN WASHINGTON DC.

Must be a full moon.  This PETA freak comes out of the wood work whenever the dung beetles are hatching.  BS is an appropriate abbreviation for this screwball.  I wonder if he wears leather shoe soles, petroleum derived synthetics which contributes to the world’s pollution, or natural rubber from plantations carved from the heart of virgin rain forests.  As long as he gets his and feels good about hisself! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

According to a study published in a recent issue of Scientific American, the leading cause of wildlife entanglement (not to be confused with INTENTIONAL entrapment) is indeed discarded fishing line….over and above that of discarded six-pack holders. Additionally, the leading cause of oil pollution is the improper disposal – by RESIDENTIAL users – of motor oil….i.e. your car and lawnmower.  Whereas outboard motor oil is partially combusted and inboards have a closed oil system. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but no one has a right to be

Response:

bULLsHIT1776 YELLS again: <<THE LEADING CAUSE OF LIFE THREATENING WILDLIFE ENTANGLEMENT IN THE WORLD IS DISCARDED FISHING LINE ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR MARINE CONSERVATION IN WASHINGTON DC. Hmmmmm.  I have never seen or heard of a fly fisherman discarding fishing line.  Doesn’t happen, lady.  Perhaps you’ve cross posted this crap to the wrong group?   Dave LaCourse

Response:

THE LEADING CAUSE OF LIFE THREATENING WILDLIFE ENTANGLEMENT IN THE WORLD IS DISCARDED FISHING LINE ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR MARINE CONSERVATION IN WASHINGTON DC.

Bullshit. The leading cause of wildlife entanglement are the nets specifically made for this very purpose. You are shouting again.  By the way is their any reason your name is the same as the BS1776  meaning British Standard 1776 and is the minimum standard that condoms have to attain, or is that just a coincidence ? TL MC

Response:

Dear BS1766 Next time you are in the vicinity of a Flyfisherman, please ask the aforementioned Flyfisherman to strangle you with any about-to-be discarded line.

Response:

According to a study published in a recent issue of Scientific American, the leading cause of wildlife entanglement (not to be confused with INTENTIONAL entrapment) is indeed discarded fishing line….over and above that of discarded six-pack holders.

Not to be unnecessarily dense (especially since I haven’t read the article), but that sounds sort of intuitive.   Who is really surprised that the leading cause of entanglement is stuff you can get tangled in?   Besides fishing line, what were some of the other discarded materials in question? Were there any indications as to different sources of the discarded line (e.g. recreational worm dunkers vs. commercial long liners)? I have to say that the rivers, lakes, etc. where I’ve fished are remarkable devoid of discarded line from recreational fishermen.   Two exceptions are the Susquehanna (MD. portion) and the Salmon River (NY).   The great number of bait fishermen on the Susquehanna unfortunately include some of the worst environmentally-insensitive pigs to ever wet a hook.   I think their attitude is "if it sinks out of sight, it ain’t litterin’."   In some heavily fished holes on the Salmon, it sometimes seems as though the river bottom is 50% monofilament. Joe F.

Response:

You are shouting again.  By the way is their any reason your name is the same as the BS1776  meaning British Standard 1776 and is the minimum standard that condoms have to attain, or is that just a coincidence ?

Which reminds me of something I saw on a condom machine in the gents toilet of an English pub a long time ago. In large red letters on the front of the machine it said " Made to British Standard 1776"  below this some wag had written in large black letters with a marker pen, "So was the Titanic". TL MC

Response:

B.S. wrote a bunch of b.s. Listen folks I know I abused my hearing with 30 years of shooting magnum pistols, but you don’t have to YELL! Big Dale

Response:

[deleted] Must be a full moon.  This PETA freak comes out of the wood work whenever the dung beetles are hatching.  BS is an appropriate abbreviation for this screwball.  I wonder if he wears leather shoe soles, petroleum derived synthetics which contributes to the world’s pollution, or natural rubber from plantations carved from the heart of virgin rain forests.  As long as he gets his and feels good about hisself!

You guys are being ignorant buttholes, IMNSFHO. To deny that we break off leaders on rocks and on fish is pretty stupid and leaves me to question who the PETA members are, really. Will you deny the lead accusation too OJ ? To fish is human….To release Divine!

"To fish is human, to eat the fish the only justifiable reason for the act". Your pal and fellow ignorant butthole, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

0] : THE LEADING CAUSE OF LIFE THREATENING WILDLIFE ENTANGLEMENT IN THE : WORLD IS : DISCARDED FISHING LINE ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR MARINE : CONSERVATION IN : WASHINGTON DC. : : Must be a full moon.  This PETA freak comes out of the wood work : whenever the dung beetles are hatching.  BS is an appropriate : abbreviation for this screwball.  I wonder if he wears leather shoe : soles, petroleum derived synthetics which contributes to the world’s : pollution, or natural rubber from plantations carved from the heart of : virgin rain forests.  As long as he gets his and feels good about : hisself! : — : Wayne : To fish is human….To release Divine! FWIW I found and have in my collection a western oriole nest made entirely of discarded monofilament. I found this near the E. Walker river near Bridgeport, California. It showed every sign of having been used successfully. This is not at all to say I endorse discarding the stuff. I remove it when I find it, including that nest. Mike — Michael McGuire                     Hewlett Packard Laboratories  (remove x’s from email if not      Palo Alto, CA 94303-0971   a spammer) Phone: (650)-857-5491              

Response:

Remove your head from your arse tbone, you’ll have better fishing that way Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys are being ignorant buttholes, IMNSFHO. To deny that we break off leaders on rocks and on fish is pretty stupid and leaves me to question who the PETA members are, really. Will you deny the lead accusation too OJ ? To fish is human….To release Divine! "To fish is human, to eat the fish the only justifiable reason for the act". Your pal and fellow ignorant butthole, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Remove your head from your arse tbone, you’ll have better fishing that way

May be…but at least it’s a short cast. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] Must be a full moon.  This PETA freak comes out of the wood work whenever the dung beetles are hatching.  BS is an appropriate abbreviation for this screwball.  I wonder if he wears leather shoe soles, petroleum derived synthetics which contributes to the world’s pollution, or natural rubber from plantations carved from the heart of virgin rain forests.  As long as he gets his and feels good about hisself! You guys are being ignorant buttholes, IMNSFHO. To deny that we break off leaders on rocks and on fish is pretty stupid and leaves me to question who the PETA members are, really.

nobody’s saying we don’t lose gear, but i for one question this posters credibility and if what he says is in fact based on truth. the problem with the original post was the broad stroke.  fishing line can mean a lot of things, little clips of tippet, balls of tangled mono, mile long lost drift nets, lost gillnets, and other commercial gear lost that continues fishing and killing for a long time.  i do not condone people littering, but including sportfishermen with lost commercial gear is misleading and does not really present the whole truth.  yes, fishing line does entangle fish… but i’d like more info.  what percentage of the total is lost commercial fishing nets?  what percentage is based on sportfishing litter?  plus, i don’t believe everything i read on the internet.  anybody with any agenda can say anything.  to me, his original statement very well might be a large pile of bs. Will you deny the lead accusation too OJ ?

again, because it was posted on usenet, it must be true?  if it is, we should work on reducing our losses of lead sinkers, etc.  but just saying some scientist (who may not exist) says lead is killing lots of loons is imo suspect.  i certainly hope it’s not true, because unlike some posters i actually enjoy watching birds while i’m fishing… and loons are some of my favorites (puffins top the list though). now, give me lots of dna evidence, blood stains, etc… and i’ll reconsider <G. chris Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

THE LEADING CAUSE OF LIFE THREATENING WILDLIFE ENTANGLEMENT IN THE WORLD IS DISCARDED FISHING LINE ACCORDING TO THE CENTER FOR MARINE CONSERVATION IN WASHINGTON DC.

Besides being misleading and irrelevant… this statement is probably totally untrue.   Ghost nets (those broken off or otherwise lost by commercial fishermen) are undoubtedly the largest cause of life threatening wildlife entanglement (if fish are counted as wildlife). The number of fish lost to "ghost nets" is staggering, but there is no way to get an exact count because it all happens "invisibly" beneath the surface. Besides, the turkey who posted this nonsense is a mindless spammer. I found it on the rec.outdoor.fishing group also. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Question:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse. I figure if a fish can be caught more then once then its good for the fishery and the fisherman….not the fish. I don’t apologize for killing for sport, but C&R allows me to kill less. Hell golfers kill grass when they golf. I kill insects every day walking down the street. I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – – Views on Ethics Astream – (snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

Response:

Jon Cook: <<…..Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever. Perhaps *that* is why Clinton doesn’t fly fish! Just a thought.

Response:

I’ve followed this debate for a couple of years and I keep seeing the same things rehashed.  Has any of the contributors ever learned anything from it and modified their position to suit, or has this become as ritualized as watching Seinfeld reruns to TV eternity? Moe, you and your cronies argue C&R is immoral, shows lack of respect to animals, ruins the rivers etc.  The Ralphians argue that C&R is merely a tool to be employed or not, depending on circumstance.  Morality is irrelevant.  Someone with a Classical education can help me out here, but weren’t there two characters who were condemned for eternity to battle each other.  Well these guys should step aside for we have two new candidates for the job. There is no endgame to this, and maybe that’s the point.  It’s become a Seinfeld substitute.  In chess, repetitive moves can be ruled a stalemate. What else do we have here, but that.  Isn’t it about time somebody recognized that the other side may have made a valid point or two?  If there is no growth, no development in this debate, it just becomes a Usenet WWF tag team match, Moe and the Fish Breaths vs.. Ralphie and the Barbless.  No time limit, no falls, no referee, and eventually no audience. There’s no point me adding my two cents worth on the subject.  Somebody would just misrepresent it and go off on another tangential rant.  We already need half the farms in Iowa just to provide the hay for all the straw men that get built around here.  Can’t anyone see any merit in what the other side is saying, or have you dug your bunkers so deep, you can’t see out of them? KRR — remove nospam from Email address

Response:

: :       well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. : i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or : non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre : of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god : fearing christians, etc." Absolutely, me too. (btw, I only said atheist, so what the other groups have to do with anything, I don’t know). I only assert that it is impossible to tell an atheist they have a moral obligation to something.

You mean all I have to do is become an atheist and I can keep or release as many fish as I want to.  (In the words of Homer Simpson… WHOO HOO!)  I’m switchin’  :-) Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

_______ THIS!  Is exactly the point Johnathan.  That I CAN Catch & Release 8 or more fish a day when I could have killed a limit of 6 instead and quit and gone home, IS just the point. If I can, as a sportsman, catch and release twenty, thirty, or more fish a day and not kill a one, THAT IS THE POINT. Selfish?  You bet.  What’s wrong with the word selfish?  There is nothing wrong with the word selfish, self interest and entertainment as long as that activity does  not demean the resource. Here, look at that stream.  It has six fishermen in it and 72 fish in it.  You’re the Seventh fisherman and all six of THEM catch their limit of six fish each, and then go away. You, on the other hand, that day, caught 36 fish and released them all, not hurting a one for another day. The next day, all six fishermen return and repeat the process because ‘the law’ says they may. You come back the third day and there is nothing left for you. Why do you then not see how beautiful  you are? Mr. G. Fishing only becomes by business when I am one and they are two. ? It means, I am only the minority.

Response:

Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations?

gross mismanagement by the States responsible.  First off, the number one enemy to wild fisheries are when the State starts introducing hatchery fish. Next, there are too many fishermen. etc. The answer is to manage a wild fishery as a wild fishery with no catch and kill allowed.  Any fish that is not handled properly, will die and the carcass will be picked up by an eagle, otter, etc.  BUT what won’t happen is the hand of man will not be allowed to fill an ego.  EGO destroys the size of the breeding stock than anything else. Where a section of stream could handle one catch and kill fisherman a month,  the same stretch can handle many more fly fishermen a week that catch and release. I can promise everyone that barbless hooks are one of the most exciting aspects to catch and release fishing in a century of inventions. Here, we fly fishermen will lose more then what comes to hand, but that we can hook up and get a wiggle or a leap or two before the majority of the fish get free – is reward enough.  This is why I always tell my guests,  "That you at least hooked up and got a turn or one leap, we regard as a fooled fish and caught if it had a barb." How would you like to fish.  With or without a barb?  If you catch and release? Mr. G.

Response:

____ snipped some good stuff: the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.         wayno

for bigger trout and/or fish like Steelhead Wayne? arrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggh!   But I’ll do it. You can fish with anything out west you want to as long as its nine feet or more. 8′ 11” ’s won’t do. ; ) Mr. G.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip the only solution that satisfies my hopes for my kids is a middle ground, boring as that stand might be:  be moderate in your days on the water. be moderate in the numbers of fish you catch.  kill only what you want to eat.  and then post a literate description of your experience on roff so us poor rednecks in the appalachians can vicariously enjoy the feeling of a 20 inch rainbow on the business end of a 7.5 thomas & thomas.        wayno well said wayno….. btw…. i never thought I’d be happy to see a return to roff of this timeless debate, it sure beats the g-wars. –Wataugan Walt p

Mr. G.

Response:

: : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should.. : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

        well, now, jon, let’s think about that position for a moment. i have known scores of folk who are either atheists or agnostics or non-christians who both talk the talk and walk the walk in the theatre of decent relationships with their fellow man just as well as "god fearing christians, etc."  a human being’s treatment of fish, as an animal or a golf ball, may have nothing whatsoever to do with that individual’s philosophy or religion.         this response is not meant to imply that i am directly opposed to your position on what a man does to fish when he tries to catch them.  i just want to make sure that if you posit that only "good people" c&k, then you and i have a difference of opinion. (snip)         wayno

Response:

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? [deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

I resent that! I do not chubakka! I think it’s a disgusting and unhealthy habit. Besides my wife wouldn’t tolerate the spitunes! Ralph H

Response:

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum? 8^) : : ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? More anglers selfishly catching more than they should..

oh so that’s the problem Mr Salad was talking about? : Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Well, here we agree. If you are an athiest, if you believe there is no good/evil/morality/ethics in the universe, then you do not owe anybody anything, whether they are a fish, your kid, whatever.

atheism does not equal amoralism. (BTW I officialy consider myself agnostic – I suspect there is a god but I have no idea what shape it takes – I suspect as people this shape is beyond our comprehension – but I have real trouble with the idea – since by definition it is beyond…) So you can put your prejudices away. I’d also say God’s expression and resolution of ethical and moral issues is perplexing to say the least. If you believe that man *does have* some sort of prescribed relationship to animals, that the term "animal abuse" can be meaningful in a moral or ethical way, then you have to decide what the ramifications are to that. It might involve how you fish.

 How might it unless you are a Hindu or animist – even then I don’t believe the ascribe the sort of ethical considerations you might give to fish on some obscure religious basis. I’d ask you to be more specific but I don’t think you can. Anyone else? Mr Salad? Ralph H

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Is it just me or has anyone else noticed how Jon and Timbo follow my posts as certainly as Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum?

[deleted] He’s using "The Chubakka Defense" again ! — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo

And now I come in and ask if the conditions at these places are due to C&R being implemented or due to a population increase in population centers around those area.  Is C&R the cause or the affect? …Continue ad infiniteum… What were we supposed to do?  Blue 22 or something like that? Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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[deleted] I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r.

Fuck Ralph… (why don’t ya try to double up on the ridilan [you alzheimeric bot !] Nothing like a good immature ad hominym attack to get this off on the right foot ! <g) Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo . . . Places I wouldn’t fish on a bet.  And I doubt you would either once you realized the score…. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Try these (again !). The South Platte Below Cheesman The Frying Pan below Reudi The Green below Flaming Gorge The San Juan below Navajo .

so are you saying that there are fewer fish and the fish are smaller and generally in poorer condition than BEFORE c&r regulations? BTW I am accepting all these rivers are strictly c&r – no slots no trophy bags. – excepting of course the San Juan – as has been pointed out you have repeatedly misrepresented the regs on that river. Ralph H

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[deleted] I guess your point is that if you don’t like trout (to eat that is) you have no business fishing.

[deleted] That is correct. Do you return sub-eatables to the stream?

Culling (Selective Harvest) is an ancient form of managing a natural resource. C&R is a 30 year old Knee-Jerk non-solution that allows rod manufacturers to multiply. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Some of us C&R types advocate it not to be pompus or to hold the higher ethical ground. I release fish because I like to catch’m more than I like to eat them. Also I want to help manage a finite resourse… ? Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where

. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount. I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution.

ok so what is the problem that c&r is not the answer to? C&R is hardly a knee jerk response but has evolved over a period of generations. For generations it’s been accepted to let some fish – they are too small, they’re spawning, they are the wrong species. Some fishers then realized they could let many more go and provide more fish for themselves and for others tomorrow and the next year and in the next generation. Look at the results –  in many cases it worked – waters empty of mature fish repopulated with fish of all age classes. It’s hard as an angler to accept arguments that those populations of fish are worse off because of c&r. I’ve asked before but never got an answer – show me one water where the population of fish were quantitatively and qualitatively (for anglers) worse off after the introduction of c&r. C&R is a technique or tool – neither particular ethical or unethical in and of itself. As in most aspects of life ethical issues in fishing are not black and white as you seem to portray. Some examples; a recent email from a fisherman in England said tho’ the minimum size limit on his local waters is 7 inches he doesn’t kill anything under 9. Haig-Brown wrote he had a personal limit of 14 inches for much of his angling life on Vancouver Island when during that time the legal limit varied from 8 inches to nil. Are these anglers ‘playing’ with the life of other beings? How different are their rules from c&r? If there is a defined point where conservation says to release or kill how can anyone do otherwise without ‘breaking’ your ethical boundaries into sadism? What of other anglers who impose such limits on themselves? Who sets the limits and decides what’s the ethical and what is not? Do we want legislated morality that says we can only fish to kill and must kill what we catch? And of course this gets back to the question I posed some time ago and recently you Mr Salad – Who or what says I owe a fish these kind of ethical/moral considerations?   Ralph H

Response:

- Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions. He does not fear the ridicule of others, for he knows that he could fill his limit if he wished. He counts as his highest reward the number of fish put back into the river for another day. He may bring in fish now and then if someone has expressed a desire for them, but he loves his fishing far to much to spoil it with wanton killing of the trout." Locating a large steelhead or salmon is the greatest thrill for the angler, for here is an adversary worthy of his skill. He may try for the fish for hours or even days without success, and still return home satisfied. Its not the dozens of fish taken that one remembers, but those few heavy, trophy steelhead taken or lost under difficult conditions we remember best. Just the knowledge that a big fish is present adds flavor to a pool or a secret place. Beginners may ask why one fishes if he is to release his catch. They fail to see that the `live steelhead’ or trout sucking in the fly and fighting the rod is the entire point of our sport. Dead fish are just so much lifeless meat. If food is the reason for fishing, then the fish market is a cheaper place to obtain it. We cannot begrudge the local angler his fish and the limits of the law for these are honorable reasons to fish, but the man who travels hundreds of miles and even thousands of miles to fish the stream is paying $50 for each pound of fish. When one stops to consider his motivation in the light of economics, it becomes obvious that he fishes for the sport and not the meat and more importantly . . . not to display his ego. Consider that the Clearwater and Snake Rivers are some of the finest Steelhead waters in the United States.  It’s a shame that I have yet to see anyone release one steelhead yet and it’s curious in the manner that the fish are kept by almost everyone in the area.  Consider the fact a suffocating demise is a torturous and hideous inconsideration. Here, a fish kept should be killed humanely with a sharp rap behind the head. He should be dressed immediately and his remains thrown away from the river for wildlife, not into the river. Again, as Ernie Schwiebert has so well put it, in his book Matching the Hatch, "The subject of etiquette along a river is difficult, for I hesitate to preach about sins that have been mine in the past. The regard for the rights of others is of primary concern and the inconsiderate fellow who shoulders in when you have taken a fish, wades through the water you are fishing, or the rafter who does the same, or proceeds to cast over the fish that you are working, is a thoughtless boor. There is no caste system on trout waters. The fish will rise to the crude fly dappled by the backwoods native as well as to the daintily imported one cast by the wealthy financier." Specific rules in angling etiquette are few, and common courtesy is the basis. It is poor form to enter a stream not far above another if he is fishing in that direction. The skillful angler doesn’t disturb the water much, but the beginner is likely to frighten the fish and put them down for some time. The large power-boat-owner that does not keep an gentleman’s eye upon the banks for wading fisherman or tube fisherman and who recklessly and wantonly allows his massive boat’s wake to attack the innocent people is quite simply, an ass and is a lawless, loose-cannon that cares little for the lives or safety of others fishing or using the joys a river provides. One should realize his own capabilities and enter the stream at a discreet distance above or below another man. The first man in the river has the right of way and we should not disturb his fun for he would most likely not disturb yours. Noticing your kindness is more apt to bring an invite and win you a lifelong friend, for along the river you are bound to find the best of mankind. As a matter of tradition the man wading upstream has the right of way, since the gentleman coming down is more likely to spoil the former’s chances. The one wading down should retire from the water and move unobtrusively around him. Often the inconsiderate will acknowledge the right of way and then wade noisily past or walk along in plain view of the fish. Don’t do this. Rafters, kayakers, drift boats and power boats should go behind the wading fisherman at a good distance, as they will pass in only a few seconds but the fisherman is left with nearly a half hour before his spooked fish return. I consider this thoughtlessness intolerable for some men will wade into position in the presence of a fish of a lifetime in almost impossible water and to a rafter the same water is a breeze. On the other hand, just because there is a rafter-kayaker-boater on the river doesn’t mean that the fishing is ruined just in his passing. But that the passing should be a pleasant experience for all parties concerned and not just one-sided, is the point.  Power boaters should always keep in mind that a fisherman wading is a "No Wake Zone." In being a writer, I want to capture the interest of as many as I possibly can. But to say that I’m here to win a popularity contest is a misconception, regarding fishing.  However, the Snake and Clearwater Rivers are fantastic, original and unique resources in this area around Clarkston Washington and today, they are but a whisper of what they once were in the past. Yet, their recreational powers are awesome and in this expanding population of America the use of their recreational attributes are on the increase as the quality of life of the rivers decrease.  We lack disaplines all across this nation with all our rivers and streams. We . . . you . . . and I, have long realized how precious our rivers are. The income that the Snake and Clearwater Drainage’s pulls into our area amounts in the millions of dollars each year. Behavioral examples we set will be the same examples others will follow in the future when it comes to river etiquette’s and their care.  Each fly fisherman must always ‘regard’ the quality of his waters and vanguard them. Many waters we fish are bordered by private property and we should respect that.  However;  cattle and livestock have little sanitary excuses, to be down by these rivers because it’s well known their filthy, polluting ways are not tolerated well by many forms of wildlife.  Cattle however, can be easily frightened and stampeded by the thoughtless angler with a resultant loss in weight or chance of injury. One ill-tempered bull can wrong many rights here . . . so shy away from cattle,  if you can, until they can be moved away from the river by authorized personnel when they are in areas they do not belong in.  Like it or not, there are too many ranchers that push the tolerance envelopes of common sense and who literally steal  habitat not belonging to them or the cattle they let roam, many times, irresponsibly. The hardest article to write is this kind because it can sound so quickly as if one is preaching. Some landowners who allow fishing build gates or stiles for fishermen to cross their fences, but then there is always some anarchist who carries wire-cutters or pliers to pull the staples. We can hardly blame the owners of posted land in some instances – but there is no law against landowners who never cared about sportsmen in the first place either.  When kindness is shown, we need to safeguard and protect those accesses to rivers passing through private properties.  Yet, the laws of propriety state that if we allow grazing on public lands at great monetary advantage to the Rancers, the habitat destruction and over-grazing they incure upon US as a society does not give them the right to be inconsiderate of gentle anglers wishing simply to savor trout waters shut off to them by fences and in many cases, illegally. The cardinal sin so often committed is the disfiguring of water or the land along it and we know today that the majority of it is done by people who are twenty five years of age and younger. A large majority still being in school . . . like it or not.  The younger generation today cannot keep clean even their bedrooms let alone being able to wear their pants above the crack of their ass. They seem to continue the contents and conditions of their bedrooms into the out-of-doors and it’s a national disgrace their parents allow such bedrooms which are their own report cards of undisciplined children to exist but it is our fault we let them disgrace the outdoors. The refuse that litters the rivers and adjacent beaches and campsites if often quite astonishing. But recent field trips prove the road-sides to contain much more trash than our local beaches do. In Hell’s Canyon, where the beaches are provided trash containers, the public uses them. But along the road on the Snake River where they are NOT provided, the roadside is a pig-sty. I cannot think of anything that makes the general public (who are by the majority,  clean) more irritated than to see a beer hog throw his can down. I guess, I can say it makes me annoyed too. I’ll admit that. Yet, if I let the hot flash pass, I have that big pocket in the back of my vest and I always try and bring two cans out every time I go to the river. It isn’t much, but we won’t have to look at it the next time we go back. Our Clearwater and Snake Rivers and ALL Rivers and Streams will continue to please many of us if we remember  a thought Isaac Walton wrote in 1653. "He that hopes to be a good angler must not only bring an inquiring, searching, observing wit; but he must also bring a large measure of hope and patience." In these days of hard-fished waters, ethics and philosophy play an ever increasing role in our enjoyment, and to Father Walton’s measure of hope and patience, let me add the spice … read more »

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was posted fragmented, but I will leave it alone because everyone should beable to get the gist of it.  My apologies. gg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – todemean the subject matter at hand.  Ernie is a friend of mine as are everyone of you here are.  I’ve seen and done maybe something that wasn’t classy, but so have I seen the best of men screw up.  These events are not the litmus paper high marks that define a man’s life Ernie, and you know it. Ernie Schwiebert has had a terrific impact on the behavior of fly fishermen astream just because of his book "Matching the Hatch."  I don’t need confirmation of this fact from anyone because I have seen how dynamic his writings and works have been on our sport and the majority of his work has all been positive.  To my mind, after Lee Wulff died, the next icon that has the stature and body of work that is of a positive force is Ernest Schwiebert.  There is no questioning the sincerity this man brings to our streams.  We are fortunate to have such a genius that fly fishes, among us. I don’t expect  you are a great body of the men here to agree with me.  There was a period of a feeding frenzy regarding Ernie several years back and it had nothing to do with holding up a preserved fish.  Mr. Schwiebert has already mentioned that he is slow to talk about indiscretions that he may have committed himself in the past. Now what do we do?  Hit  him with this sort of inventory taking again, and again, and again?  I think not. I know this about Ernie Schwiebert.  Of late and I know he is still working on it, he has put his name and monetary fortune on the line fighting the corruption that had infested the guiding and booking agents there.  Mr. Schwiebert and company, some of which might be reading this group now, had guns pointed at them and the story is a complicated one.  Mr. Schwiebert will be the first to tell me I shouldn’t be talking about this here . . . but this is the kind of man he is.  He is fighting legal issues in Russia so we Americans can enjoy that which is basically corrupt. The Russian Government has been patient and are listening with interest to the case. This is a financial costly process and who is doing it for us?  Ernie Schwiebert. Frankly, he can kill a fish now and then all he wants.  BUT!  I understand your point Ernie Harrison and it is a good one.  Let’s not use it however to demean the man nor the good intent Ethics Astream is supposed to bring into our lives. Keep the fly in the ring of the rise. Sincerely, George Gehrke

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– Views on Ethics Astream –

(snipped) Ethics.. the ethics of taking your pleasure out of playing with the lives of another being?  If C&R flyfishers actually really, honestly cared all that much about ethics, they would take up hiking or some other activity where their actions are not akin to russian roulette on the life of another being. I know this is a little extreme, but I grow so tired of C&R people attempting to take the moral high road.. but to me, all I see is a bunch of empty justification for getting your enjoyment out of ‘playing’ with the lives of another species. IMHO, there’s far more honor in catching only what you will keep, and keeping a very small, responsible amount.   I enjoy reading your writing.. so please don’t take this personally, but C&R is a knee-jerk response to a real problem.. unfortunately, it isn’t a solution. -Mark/Particle Salad Particle Salad/Noom Room Studio http://home.earthlink.net/~psalad

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I hate to burst your bubble but Schweibert was holding a large dead trout for a picture which appeared with his article in a fly fishing magazine. The caption said the trout was released back to the river, but the eyes said "Dead Fish" and I later heard that it had been frozen for a week so he could have his picture taken with it.   I wrote a letter to the magazine saying and said Mr. Schweibert should not pollute our rivers with dead fish, but never received a reply. — Ernie Harrison Remove NOSPAM to send E-Mail Selling my Fly Fishing Books Go to: http://users.ccnet.com/~emh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – - Views on Ethics Astream – Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction. <snip I am haunted by memories. Ethics in our lives makes them more perfect. gg

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– Views on Ethics Astream – [deleted] Ernie Schwiebert said it as well as anyone in Matching the Hatch. "The angling sportsman does not need dead trout or fish in his basket to feel satisfaction.

[deleted] Ernie Schwiebert never envisioned a hundred fly fishermen whoring his beloved frying pan. (My friend who is a licensed outfitter on the frying pan had [last week] a woman client pose topless with an 8 inch rainbow she had caught (then released) for a photograph.   This is what contempt for wildlife catch and release brings to the sport Ernie, George. I can no longer set forth with a clean conscience in those hallowed waters fouled by greed). Ernest Schwiebert had no idea to what level man in his greed would prostitute this notion (Bassmasters, One Fly…perhaps the worst of all "The Walleye Trail"). I doubt that (seeing these things) anyone could today preach this ill-founded ("Matching The Hatch", 1953) notion as some kind of manifest ethical destiny of the sport. C&R is not the bastion of sporting ethics you mistakingly believe it to be George. You are not the kingpin of ethicity you claim to be and I can prove it. The beautiful rainbow that you hold proudly on the photo at www.gink.com, …. Is the scale so slight that we can not see a creature that had just fought his lifes battle is now gasping to breathe in a suffocating foreign environment whose internal organs are crushing themselves as you hoist it one handed to be photographed ? Releasing it (whether it lives or not) wipes clean the slate for you ? What then of Ernest’s words "He has long since proved to himself that he can catch trout and needs no proof for his companions", can you (given your product, your website, this photograph) honestly claim to stand up to your own (Ernest’s) ethical standards ? Is the lens of our bias so out-of-focus that we can no longer see nor feel the error in this philosphy? Is the man that promotes the ’sport’ of fishing, perhaps, is the most unethical sportsman of all?. A fisherman launches his dory on an abandoned Maine beach seeking to catch fish to eat, to feed his family, or too sell.  No desire to simply catch a fish, photograph it for publicity.  He has no website with his picture on it. Aware of his role in nature, his requirement to respect nature and wildlife.  The unwritten contract of mankind.  Where we need to evolve to. This man, he is less ethical than you because he is just a ‘fisherman’ and not a ’sports-fisherman’? On his way home, "The Enlightened Ones" [standing in the surf with equipment worth more than some peoples cars] they can feel justified in shouting "why did you kill those fish ?" in some kind of Schwiebertesque chorous because they read your post on the internet or they thump "Matching The Hatch" as some kind of ‘bible’ ? Try Ernest’s half-logic on some rube, George. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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Question:

I’m planning to be on the big Island of Hawaii next week and would like to hook up with a charter captain who is fly fishing friendly.   Taking a 12 weight and a ten with hopes of catching mahi mahi, maybe ahi or striped Marlin.   Any advice about guides there would be appreciated.   I’d rather fish out of an open fisherman than a big sports fisherman. Thanks for your help David Sheffield Los Angeles

Not many people fly fish in Hawaii.  We have a local TV fishing program, "Fishing Tales", hosted by Mike Sakamoto who does fly fish, but I don’t know how to contact him.   You might try this location as a start to get some information:   http://www.biggame.com/ibgfh/index.html — Sincerely, Fred E. Nakaguma Aiea, Hawaii

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I’m planning to be on the big Island of Hawaii next week and would like to hook up with a charter captain who is fly fishing friendly.   Taking a 12 weight and a ten with hopes of catching mahi mahi, maybe ahi or striped Marlin.   Any advice about guides there would be appreciated.   I’d rather fish out of an open fisherman than a big sports fisherman. Thanks for your help David Sheffield Los Angeles

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Question:

I have just moved to Miami, FL and am interested in emptying my flybox of trout flies, and pursuing bone fish.  However, when I see the reports in the magazines of bone fishing on the flats (which look beautiful) it always looks as though a boat id required. Where can I bone fish without a boat in Dade/Broward/or Monroe counties? Do you know of any particluar good spots? Is summer a good time to spot bone fish? Thanks in advance! Mac

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I have just moved to Miami, FL and am interested in emptying my flybox of trout flies, and pursuing bone fish.  However, when I see the reports in the magazines of bone fishing on the flats (which look beautiful) it always looks as though a boat id required. Where can I bone fish without a boat in Dade/Broward/or Monroe counties? Do you know of any particluar good spots? Is summer a good time to spot bone fish? Thanks in advance! Mac

Hi Mac, I think there are lots of bonefish in Biscane Bay and all down through the Keys. There are some books written about the area. One is buy Stu Apte. I would find some fishing shops and find out where you can wade. I think April/May/June is prime time and Sept/Oct/Nov. I would go once or twice with a good guide. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

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I have just moved to Miami, FL and am interested in emptying my flybox of trout flies, and pursuing bone fish.  However, when I see the reports in the magazines of bone fishing on the flats (which look beautiful) it always looks as though a boat id required. Where can I bone fish without a boat in Dade/Broward/or Monroe counties? Do you know of any particluar good spots? Is summer a good time to spot bone fish? Thanks in advance! Mac

Miami area and fly fishes there on a regular basis. Richard should be able to help you out with everything you need to know.

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Question:

For your free brochure featuring the funniest in t-shirts,  E-mail the shirtguy for info.  Guaranteed to help you look better catching that whopper!!  Good Fishing.

Response:

For your free brochure featuring the funniest in t-shirts,  E-mail the shirtguy for info.  Guaranteed to help you look better catching that whopper!!  Good Fishing.

This is not posted by the intelekchualy advanced, flyfishing supremo, humorous South African Bruce which you have all come to know and admire. (I realy crack myself up sometimes). I would never attempt to sell t-shirts via roff. Hell hath no fury as a flyfisherman spammed. Cheers Bruce….

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Question:

Hi everybody! Has anybody got any advice about flyfishing in New Zeeland. I’m planning a trip there and would like to know where, when … Thanks /Micke A    - Sweden –

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Hi everybody! Has anybody got any advice about flyfishing in New Zeeland. I’m planning a trip there and would like to know where, when … Thanks /Micke A    - Sweden –

Hi there, Try http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro This is the NZ flyfishing page. good luck….

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Micke, Check out: http://www-aghort.massey.ac.nz/flyfish/intro /Tord Andreasson

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Question:

writes: Fished at Salmon River 9/27,9/28 for Spposed to be Greatest Chinook Salmon run.

Your experience sent chills down my spine.  At first I felt sorry for those Chinook Salmon that had been transplanted to such an unfriendly location. Then I felt sorry for you, trying to give these magnificent fish a decent sporting chance and being thwarted by uncaring fishermen.  And then I felt sorry for myself, because I wondered how long it would be before that type of fishing would become standard practice everywhere.  I prey that the new fishermen entering the sport give some respect to their surroundings and their fellow fishermen. Ernie Harrison

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Hi Goh, Looks like the SR really got to you. Maybe you should give SW a try! Give me a call  or send Email and we’ll work something out. Maybe join "Salty" Fly rodders-Good bunch of guys with similar interest(and they don’t like to kill fish) We meet 1st Monday of the month at Queens Botanical Garden in Flushing. On Main street just North of LIE.

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Fished at Salmon River 9/27,9/28 for Spposed to be Greatest Chinook Salmon run. Hooked a  fish in every morning and run after fish up stream and down stream  was great sport. but no more fish come through. everybody have to wait for a single  fish to come up. The run was very spars and too many fishermen. (I can’t imagine what  weekend will be!!) They are totally different crowds than any others I have seen. They are just like Bear with rod and reel!! Chasing fish after fish and present Ugliest fly you can imagine to their nose and hook them any where on their body and hold the rod still . partner or their  guide will run after hooked fish and net fish. The Warden will  run to them and check if they foul or fair. if it’s fair they will  kill the fish. If not, release him and chase the same fish again until hook him near the mouth. arguing about who’s fish,who cuts in middle etc…..endless. Ugliest fishing I have ever saw. I had enough watching theses Bears and went down stream to explore other stretch of river. where no body around. happen to be good holding pool. as my fly reached to productive area Spin fishermen with huge spoon from no where splashed in front of my fly. I said to my self enough is enough. clipped off my fly and  practice Spey casting  for rest of the day. I should Foul hook those Bears with #4/0 Dbl hook with Droper It could be great fight!! It was  clear and beautiful autumn day (not good for fishing) PS. At the Fly fishing section is worse. they foul hook one single fish with 20lb tippet from both side of the bank  and yell each other. They don’t care at all beacuse it’s catch and  release water anyway. There is no respect to sports or to the fish. This is The Ugliest Fly fishing in world. If someone knows Uglier Fly fishing than this,I don’t mind trying them. it’s all Bullsxxt!! Goh

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Camping is available but I don’t camp there. I recommend the Portly Angler (about 17-23$ a night depending on the # of people). There really isn’t a back country so camping parks are your best bet (i.e. KOA or such). Licences are about $20 for limited time period?? and 35-40 a year. Chuck Abbott

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Hi there is a web page set up exclusively for the Salmon River. It’s pretty informative! http://www.maine.com/fish-ny/

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Hi During Steelhead season in November at Fly Fishing section. I saw many Fishermen using long leader and Hevey Weight AND!! Size 3/0 or larger hook with little bity piece of some hair or feather. Very nice low-water parttern!? drifting on holding pool and snaging one after another. Hope the DEC will check these Fly fishermen !? very closely also. I think Salmon River is very pretty if you go upper section. Especialy the end of Season (March and April) With less crowd, you will have whole section by your self.

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Hi During Steelhead season in November at Fly Fishing section. I saw many Fishermen using long leader and Hevey Weight AND!! Size 3/0 or larger hook with little bity piece of some hair or feather. Very nice low-water parttern!? drifting on holding pool and snaging one after another. Hope the DEC will check these Fly fishermen !? very closely also. I think Salmon River is very pretty if you go upper section. Especialy the end of Season (March and April) With less crowd, you will have whole section by your self.

"Fly fishermen"???? I hope they get checked too, as the legal hook gap is 1/2 inch, or roughly a size 2. Chances are, there leaders were illegal as well. This is the type of fishing that gives the river such a bad reputation. Bob Petti Endwell, NY

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I admint that the river is crowded and that fishing can be a hectic because of the crowds, but IMHO there is large supply of fly fishers. The fly fishing section has been expanded in include a new areas (more on the way) and still the places can be filled with fly fishers. Snagging to the best of my knowledege has been banned on the Salmon but is still being contested to some degree. Salmon absolutely will take a fly in places other than the body. They need to be teased a bit but they will attack/eat/absently swallow a fly on a regular basis. This may require several casts to a fish. Attractor patterns and glow bugs take many Salmon. In fact, spin fishers sometimes tie on a fly to their rig and do quite well as the key is "be on the bottom" where the fish are. Dry fly fishing is rare to non-existent. I heard a tale that Ted Williams fished the river and caught serveral steelhead and salmon on the surface; but this was Mr. Williams and not you or I. Try hitting the Salmon on a wednesday-friday before a weekend and you’ll be suprised how few people there are and how mush more cooperative the fish are when they are not pounded by the crowds. Don’t give up yet…. Chuck Abbott

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  Well, speaking as a average flyfisherman who has never been there, the Salmon River has a tarnished reputation in my view.

Yes, it has a bad rep among fly fishers. I think that’s going to change over the next few years.   All the stories of crowds of neanderthals with grappling hooks and corn, and a puny 1 mile of flyfishing-only have taken me from the "I’ve gotta get up there" stage to the "I think I’ll go out west" stage.

Snagging is illegal this year. I saw people hauled off the river last year by DEC officials when the snagging was outlawed for awhile. The DEC is taking this seriously. Those "in the know" realize that sportsman will bring more money into the area than "neanderthals".   Perhaps this is good news to those who fish the Salmon.

Not really. If you accept beforehand that you’re not going to be fishing in solitude, and bring a good attitude with you, it really can be fun. Granted, it’s different, but is that necessarily bad? C’mon up and have some fun!   Mysteriously, the folks who promote the Salmon (like Fran Verdoliva, for example) don’t seem to address the issues I mentioned above.   Instead, in her online information she waxes enthusiastic about flyfishing on the Salmon, when in fact from what I’ve heard it ain’t so swift.

Fran’s a guy. The flyfishing is outstanding. Most people get disappointed if they don’t hook up there first few times out. It takes awhile to learn the river, the fish, and the techniques, just like anywhere else. It’s *NOT* a western river. The effective techniques and flies are different.   I’m not being cynical;  I just want some knowledge-backed reassurances that if I go up there, I’ll catch one fish and not get hooked in the ear by someone 10 feet from me!   — Scott

I wouldn’t guarantee anyone’s ear. I also wouldn’t guarantee someone a fish on any body of water their first time out. However, if you put your time in and learn the water and techniques, you can begin to hook fish quite regularly up there in all sorts of weather an water conditions. Just ask Fran! Bob Petti Endwell, NY

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   Well, speaking as a average flyfisherman who has never been there, the Salmon River has a tarnished reputation in my view.    All the stories of crowds of neanderthals with grappling hooks and corn, and a puny 1 mile of flyfishing-only have taken me from the "I’ve gotta get up there" stage to the "I think I’ll go out west" stage.    Perhaps this is good news to those who fish the Salmon.    Mysteriously, the folks who promote the Salmon (like Fran Verdoliva, for example) don’t seem to address the issues I mentioned above.   Instead, in her online information she waxes enthusiastic about flyfishing on the Salmon, when in fact from what I’ve heard it ain’t so swift.    I’m not being cynical;  I just want some knowledge-backed reassurances that if I go up there, I’ll catch one fish and not get hooked in the ear by someone 10 feet from me!    — Scott

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I’ve had two fishing trips to the area.   And I think it will be some time before I return. If you really want to go, I strongly recommend hiring a guide. And not all guides pratice what you might consider ‘ethical’ or at least standard flyfishing techniques. There are three I recommend without reserve: Fran Verdolovia    315 963 3905 Peter Basta        315 963 3905 or 802 867 4103 Greg Lui            (see Fran’;s number)

My experiences with the Salmon River during the salmon run are quite varied. Last year, with the on-again off-again snagging, flyfishers were out of their element (I’m being polite) downstream from the C&R areas. However, fishing in the two C&R areas was actually quite fun. It may be crowded, but it’s a different kind of crowd. I really enjoyed it, and the fishing action is usually outstanding. IMHO, the Salmon River comes into its own during the winter steelhead season. There are still quite a few fisherman out, but a flyfisherman can fish most of the river without "being in danger". And when the weather is bad, you can have large sections of the river all to yourself.

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Can anyone offer any information about Sept/Oct on the Salmon River such as the average cost of lisence and guides and whether or not back country camping is available?  Any good spots or guides. Thanks

I’ve had two fishing trips to the area.   And I think it will be some time before I return. If you really want to go, I strongly recommend hiring a guide. And not all guides pratice what you might consider ‘ethical’ or at least standard flyfishing techniques. There are three I recommend without reserve: Fran Verdolovia    315 963 3905 Peter Basta        315 963 3905 or 802 867 4103 Greg Lui            (see Fran’;s number)

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If you have an internet www browser, point it here: http://w3.maine.com/fish-ny/welcome.htm It’s a home page devoted to Salmon River

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Can anyone offer any information about Sept/Oct on the Salmon River such as the average cost of lisence and guides and whether or not back country camping is available?  Any good spots or guides.

There now are several reliable stores in Pulaski.  I’ve not been there for years but fancy the most popular FF store is at a truck stop just east of the freeway at the Pulaski exit, i.e. the side away from the town. —  |          Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Rd., Carlsbad         |  |        Springs, Ont., Canada K0A 1K0; tel: (613) 822-0734       |  |  "What I’ve always liked about science is its independence from |  |  authority"–Ontario Science Centre (name on file) 10 July 1981 |

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The salmon stop eating once they enter the river from lake Ontario.

So… the technique used to catch them is called "lifting"… a legal word for snagging/foul hooking.<<<< LIFTING IS NOT "LEGAL" IT IS IMMORAL AND PRACTICED BY IDIOTS WHO THINK THAT SALMON CANNOT BY CAUGHT AFTER THEY ENTER THE RIVER.  For some stupid reason people think that when you have thousands of fish in a river that you should be able to get a fish on every cast. The salmon will most certainly hit a fly out of aggression and reflex if it is presented the correct way,, in fact I  and large number of other anglers can consistently  hook into salmon as long as they have not had the crap spooked out of them by jerks wadding thru pools trying to move the salmon out into shallower water so they can rip a single pointed hook into the head region of the fish (this is what "lifting" is). In fact it is now a state law as of September 1 that no one may snag, lift or foul hook a salmonid  in any body of water in New York State. Anyone who is caught keeping a foul hooked fish is subject to arrest and fines. The NY DEC will be beafing up patrols on the salmon river this year in order to enforce the law. Mark Arrigo

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Check out the following Home Page.  It will answer all your questions http://www.maine.com:80/fish-ny/ Bill A.

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I fished the river a few times in late Sept/early Oct for the salmon run that occurs that time of year.  There are a few nice browns (hooked jaw & spawning colors) in there too. The salmon stop eating once they enter the river from lake Ontario.  So… the technique used to catch them is called "lifting"… a legal word for snagging/foul hooking.  There was (and still may be) a legal snagging section where you throw a heavily weighted trebble hook (sorta looks like the grapling hook that James Bond uses to climb walls) and rip it through the water in hopes of snagging a dorsal fin or tail or eye or ???  Sounds like fun huh???  Add to that the total lack of elbow room (you often have to synchronize your cast with all your neighbors to avoid tangles) and you have the ultimate fishing experience.  By the way, if your still headed there after reading this, don’t go without korkers.  Wading can get a little tough (lotsa rocks and some pushy water). There is a fee for fishing section that some senator owns.  It’s west of Pulaski and is considerably less crowded.  The fish are also much fresher since this section is closer to the lake.  It is heavily patrolled by fish & game wardens in plain clothes for snagging violators.  I believe the fee was $15 but that was in ‘93. Water levels can vary greatly due to a damn upriver.  900-933-FISH was a river report number at one time. There are very few fly-fisherpeople on most of the river.  There is a ff only section the last mile just below the hatchery.  Any fish that have managed to make it past the 33 bazillion guys downstream are pretty worn out and "near the end". I don’t know about wilderness camping or guides (never used one) but there is a campground that we stayed at on route 13 called the Pineville Campground (315-298-2325).  Most of the sites are pretty open but a few are tucked into corners giving you some semblance of privacy. I guess I sound pretty sour on the place but that’s ’cause it’s not my kind of fishing.  I suppose I became too much of a purist.  I scratched it from my list in ‘94.  There’s some nice looking water in a nice setting. You might have a better experience than I did.  Good Luck (seriously, not sarchasm). Karl Bass

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Can anyone offer any information about Sept/Oct on the Salmon River such as the average cost of lisence and guides and whether or not back country camping is available?  Any good spots or guides. Thanks

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